Bowie vs. Lou Reed
Rick Evans
Anyone remember the fight Lou Reed had with Bowie? If I recall it
went something like this. Back in 1976 or 77 Bowie made a crack to
Reed that Reed should quit copying his style so much! This pissed
off Reed and he hit Bowie, then left. Bowie went looking for him
to hit him back, but didn't get a chance!
As much as I love Bowie, and if the story as I understand it is true,
Bowie had it coming! True, Reed copied the early/mid 70's Glitter
image Bowie created, and Bowie did produce Transformer. However,
Bowie's *sound* was largely based on what he learned from Reed's band
the Velvet Underground. Both the experimental early stuff of VU, and
the later day (1970) VU of "Loaded" which sounds exactly like the
Glitter rock that would hit big two years later.
From what I gather, Reed is an incredible egocentric, and
Bowie's comment hit him right where it hurt (ego).
PObbard
<<Anyone remember the fight Lou Reed had with Bowie? If I recall it
went something like this. Back in 1976 or 77 Bowie made a crack to
Reed that Reed should quit copying his style so much! This pissed
off Reed and he hit Bowie, then left.>>
This happened in 1979, I believe, right around the release of LODGER.
Apparently, Lou asked David if he would consider producing another album
for him. David responded something to the effect of, "Don't you need to
work on yourself first?", to which Lou responded by hitting him, saying
"Don't you ever say that to me again!" and stomped out of the restaurant
they were in.
This is according to Victor Bocktris, an occasionally questionable source,
in the 1995 Lou Reed bio TRANSFORMER.
I agree that Bowie has borrowed a great deal from Lou Reed, but Reed has
done just as well by Bowie, having his solo career saved in 1972 with
TRANSFORMER (which yielded Reed's only Top Twenty hit ever) after Reed's
first solo album had been an artistic and commercial disaster.
Philip
Philip
------------
"Time flies when you get to work at 2." --Chris Simo
Steven Pirie-Shepherd
Rick Evans (rev...@cello.gina.calstate.edu) wrote:
: Anyone remember the fight Lou Reed had with Bowie? If I recall it
: went something like this. Back in 1976 or 77 Bowie made a crack to
: Reed that Reed should quit copying his style so much! This pissed
: to hit him back, but didn't get a chance!
: From what I gather, Reed is an incredible egocentric, and
: Bowie's comment hit him right where it hurt (ego).
There is also umbrage from the claim that Bowie (not reed) wrote wagon
wheel. At any rate..if this kind of stuff fuels creativer flow, then I am
all for it. I had the good fortune to see Reed at the Orpheum in Boston,
then Bowie at Avalon in Boston this year. Bothe were top notch
performances..imagine i saw Reed perform satellite of Love and Bowie
perform white heat white light in the same year..yowza!
__________________________________________________
Steven Pirie-Shepherd sr...@galactose.mc.duke.edu
919.684.8986 919.684.8689 FAX
-=pithy phrase=-
Matthew Smylie
In article <53gksf$d...@cello.gina.calstate.edu>
Rick Evans <rev...@cello.gina.calstate.edu> wrote:
> Anyone remember the fight Lou Reed had with Bowie? If I recall it
> went something like this. Back in 1976 or 77 Bowie made a crack to
> Reed that Reed should quit copying his style so much! This pissed
> off Reed and he hit Bowie, then left. Bowie went looking for him
> to hit him back, but didn't get a chance!
>
Breaking out my embarrasingly huge VU library :-)
According to Victor Bockris' book "Transformer":
"The success of 'Rock 'n' Roll Animal' redeemed Lou and gave
him added confidence enough to joust once again with his rival Bowie. One
night in February while Bowie was in town for his 'Diamond Dogs' tour, the
two got together. Lou was wired, they were both very stoned, and the
competition between them soon reached a fever pitch. Lou threw a drink on a
table and there was a big fight between them. According to Barbara Falk
[Lou's road manager] , Reed was jealous of Bowie's success. 'He was
jealous,'she recalled, 'but he also said he was the cool, underground,
credible one. David stomped out screaming.' "
I've heard that Bowie offered to produce Lou's next album if, and
only if Lou would clean up his act (drugs), and that was what set off the
squabble. But seeing as how Bowie was coked out of his mind in those
years, that seems unlikely.
Lou has shown throughout the years that he plays people hot and
cold (John Cale, Bowie). He brings out the best of himself and the people he
works with until he deems them no longer neccessary, and then he just
dumps them.
I'd imagine Lou's unstable personality took over, and he just went
berserk, seeing how he had been a father figure for Bowie, and now the son
was taking the spotlight.
matt
==============================================================
=
mr. 66 Matthew Smylie
66 mr...@earthlink.net
66
666666 Lou Reed Quote of the Week
66 66
66 66 "I'm a chauvinist down to my toes."
66 66
66 66
6666666
Richard Gjerde
On 9 Oct 1996, PObbard wrote:
> <<Anyone remember the fight Lou Reed had with Bowie? If I recall it
> went something like this. Back in 1976 or 77 Bowie made a crack to
> Reed that Reed should quit copying his style so much! This pissed
> off Reed and he hit Bowie, then left.>>
>
> This happened in 1979, I believe, right around the release of LODGER.
> Apparently, Lou asked David if he would consider producing another album
> for him. David responded something to the effect of, "Don't you need to
> work on yourself first?", to which Lou responded by hitting him, saying
> "Don't you ever say that to me again!" and stomped out of the restaurant
> they were in.
This is in accordance with what I have read also. I think that was in
Chris Charlesworth's book ("Bowie, a profile"?).
> This is according to Victor Bocktris, an occasionally questionable source,
> in the 1995 Lou Reed bio TRANSFORMER.
>
> I agree that Bowie has borrowed a great deal from Lou Reed, but Reed has
> done just as well by Bowie, having his solo career saved in 1972 with
> TRANSFORMER (which yielded Reed's only Top Twenty hit ever) after Reed's
> first solo album had been an artistic and commercial disaster.
>
> Philip
>
> Philip
> ------------
> "Time flies when you get to work at 2." --Chris Simo
>
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"One wrong word and you're out of sync." - DB
ric...@matstat.unit.no
gje...@math.washington.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AgamemnoN
Rick Evans <rev...@cello.gina.calstate.edu> wrote:
>Anyone remember the fight Lou Reed had with Bowie? If I recall it
>went something like this. Back in 1976 or 77 Bowie made a crack to
>Reed that Reed should quit copying his style so much! This pissed
>off Reed and he hit Bowie, then left. Bowie went looking for him
>to hit him back, but didn't get a chance!
>As much as I love Bowie, and if the story as I understand it is true,
>Bowie had it coming! True, Reed copied the early/mid 70's Glitter
>image Bowie created, and Bowie did produce Transformer. However,
>Bowie's *sound* was largely based on what he learned from Reed's band
>the Velvet Underground. Both the experimental early stuff of VU, and
>the later day (1970) VU of "Loaded" which sounds exactly like the
>Glitter rock that would hit big two years later.
I'd suggest that the 'experimental' sound of the Velvet Underground
was probably due to the presence of John Cale. Reeds tunes tend to be
fairly staright forward Rock and Roll (albeit brilliant).
Rick Evans
In article <53ih66$5...@opera.iinet.net.au> AgamemnoN,
reve...@iinet.net.au writes:
>>Bowie's *sound* was largely based on what he learned from Reed's band
>>the Velvet Underground. Both the experimental early stuff of VU, and
>>the later day (1970) VU of "Loaded" which sounds exactly like the
>>Glitter rock that would hit big two years later.
>
>I'd suggest that the 'experimental' sound of the Velvet Underground
>was probably due to the presence of John Cale. Reeds tunes tend to be
>fairly staright forward Rock and Roll (albeit brilliant).
>
Couldn't agree more! And in fairness I should of been more specific. I
think
Bowie took equally from both. Initially Bowie was in awe of the Warhol
Factory scene, and the song White Light (which seems more like a Cale
tune) really stuck with him. However, the Ziggy stuff is clearly more
Reed influenced. But then by the mid-late70's with his work with
Eno, the experimental Cale influence comes back in a big way.
Speaking of late 70's Bowie's work with Eno; I've often thought that
Bowie felt
like he missed out on Eno's "Green Mind" sessions. Eno's Green Mind
stars Eno, but features, Cale, Robert Fripp and Ian McDonald from King
Crimson, Phil Colins and Peter Gabriel from Genisis, Phil Manzanera from
Roxy Music. These sessions inspired Peter Gabriel to become a true
artist like Eno, and he leave Genisis. Roxy Music is inspired to mature
in a whole new way. King Crimson puts away the progressive rock in favor
of this more mature sound. And Phil Colins takes it to the airwaves and
makes a fortune. Obvisously I'm overstating stuff here, but I think the
importance
of Eno's Green Mind sessions really mark a change in "Post Modern Music."
Bowie however, wasn!t in on the Green Mind sessions, however he's no fool
and sees that this is the way to go; he asks Eno to produce his next
three albums. A couple of years later he mutates on the Eno thing
working with Robert Fripp on the very great album Scarey Monsters.
Just my oversimplification of the way I saw things unfold.
Bob Davis
Please!!!! Lets not bring up an incident many years passed. Both these
great artists have enlightened music listeners for decades. I doubt any
one can say Lou ever copied David as there styles never were that
similar in the first place. David always admired the Velvets early on
and especially Lou. An isolated row they might have had but so what.
We all know how David consistantly plays White light White heat at every
live concert, that must say something doesn't it?
Bob
Steven Pirie-Shepherd
Bob Davis (bb...@gnn.com) wrote:
: Please!!!! Lets not bring up an incident many years passed. Both these
And the latest Live incarnation (I caught it at >Boston) deserves release
as a single..it is simply incredible.
--
Rick Evans
In article <53gqaa$p...@newsgate.duke.edu> Steven Pirie-Shepherd,
sr...@galactose.mc.duke.edu writes:
>performances..imagine i saw Reed perform satellite of Love and Bowie
>perform white heat white light in the same year..yowza!
Now that *is* cool! I had no idea that Reed still did "satellite of
Love."
For those Bowie fans that have never heard it! You must! Its on
Reeds Transformer album, produced by Bowie, and this is a classic.
Probably sounds more like a Bowie song anyway, with his production
and vocals so heavy in the mix.
PObbard
<<We all know how David consistantly plays White light White heat at every
live concert, that must say something doesn't it?>>
David definitely does admire the Velvets', but as my close friend - a
devotee of the Velvets but no real fan of DB (outside of "Queen Bitch") -
points out, David has really made "White Light / White Heat" and "Waiting
for the Man" his own songs through repeat performance and reworking. At
this point, they're only marginally covers!
PObbard
<<Bowie however, wasn!t in on the Green Mind sessions, however he's no
fool
and sees that this is the way to go; he asks Eno to produce his next
three albums.>>
Eno DID NOT produced LOW, "HEROES", and LODGER; Tony Visconti produced all
three. Eno has co-writing credits and performance credits on about a third
of the tracks on each of those albums.
The only David Bowie album produced (and really co-written, as well) by
Brian Eno is OUTSIDE.
Rick Evans
In article <53md4f$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> PObbard, pob...@aol.com
writes:
>three. Eno has co-writing credits and performance credits on about a
third
>of the tracks on each of those albums.
OK, I screwed up! But do you think a song like "Heroes" would sound
anything
like it does without the existence of Eno? I'm not saying Bowie isn't
a titan of talent, just that LOW, "HEROES", and LODGER have a very
heavy Eno influence!
RussDean
This is the most interesting thread I've read in awhile.
Bowie vs. Reed...hmmm. Well, if they did get in a fight, I'm not
surprised. The story even fast forwards to 1989, when they were both at
Bill Zysblat's failed "International Rock Awards" (Bowie with Tin Machine,
Lou to play Romeo Had Juliette) and walked right past each other with nary
a word.
It's tough to even compare the two....just incredibly different styles. I
mean, comparing "New York" to anything David's done is just not possible.
Bowie lives through characters primarily in his stuff, and Lou writes
straight from the bone (in most cases). It's when Lou tried to be a pop
guy (New Sensations, Mistrial, Rock N'Roll Heart, Growing Up In Public)
that he wasn't so hot. Ironically, that's when Bowie's at his worst as
well (as we all know, unless you like Let's Dance or Never Let Me Down as
good work). I do think Lou is probably resentful of Bowie's rise in the
80s because it gave DB the chance to be discovered by the masses, and
respected for his lengthy career, something Lou's never quite achieved.
Still, I don't consider that a barometer of success either, but I'm sure
Lou would have enjoyed the chance to be loved by many and do the stadium
shows, etc.. Anyone who saw him do the Amnesty gigs back in '86 knows
this.
Overall impression: Lou a better storyteller than David, Bowie a more
versatile artist than Reed, Bowie surrounded by better musicians through
his career than Reed, Lou concerts very significant and poignant
(especially recently), Bowie concerts more enjoyable on the whole. Lou
suffers from lack of re-release label like Ryko (some solo stuff very hard
to come by). I'd have to say it's a dead (White Light, White) heat.
Michael Dempsey
Just want to add a quick story to the Bowie/Reed saga.
A good friend of mine was in NYC this summer for the Samuel Beckett
festival being held there. After a production of "Ohio Impromptu" he
turned around to leave only to find Bowie, Iman, Lou Reed and Laurie
Anderson getting up from the seats they'd shared together two rows away.
According to my friend, the four of them looked like they were having a
great time in each other's company. If there's still any creative or
professional tension between David and Lou, it no longer seems to impact
their ability to be friends.
-- Michael
Martyn King
Hello Rick,
>>performances..imagine i saw Reed perform satellite of Love and Bowie
>>perform white heat white light in the same year..yowza!
RE> Now that *is* cool! I had no idea that Reed still did "satellite of
RE> Love."
Have you got a pulse ?
RE> For those Bowie fans that have never heard it! You must! Its on
RE> Reeds Transformer album, produced by Bowie, and this is a classic.
RE> Probably sounds more like a Bowie song anyway, with his production
RE> and vocals so heavy in the mix.
Hmm, I think that I might hear this ?"Transformer"? album.
S'long,
__ __ _
| \/ |__ _ _ _| |_ _ _ _ _
| |\/| / _` | '_| _| || | ' \
|_| |_\__,_|_| \__|\_, |_||_| e-mail: marty...@enterprise.net
|__/ Fido: 2:440/302.3
Dara O'Kearney
In article <53megq$4...@cello.gina.calstate.edu>,
Rick Evans <rev...@cello.gina.calstate.edu> wrote:
>OK, I screwed up! But do you think a song like "Heroes" would sound
>anything
>like it does without the existence of Eno?
My short answer would be Yes. Obviously, Eno had an impact on the overall
sound, but I think that tends to be overestimated. And judging by both the
Bowie-segment of the "Dancing In The Streets" (History Of Rock) series,
which deals with the recording of the song, (not to mention Bowie's recent
comments at Loreley), I think that Visconti may have had a bigger influence
on the 'sound' of that particular song than Eno (who did cowrite the
music). But of course neither of them had as much influence as Bowie. :-)
Just my opinion,
Slan leat,
Dara.
Mark Carter
I adore the Cale/Eno album _Wrong Way Up_, but I wouldn't really call it
groundbreaking. It works within established song structures, strong
melodies, and simple rhythms--then subverts the formula, covering some
very weird subject matter lyrically, and throwing in odd sonic fragments
(like the atonal stabs at the end of "Cordoba" to suggest something very
dark). Many of the songs are panoramic and soothing; others, like "Crime
in the Desert", are pretty outrageous. All in all, Eno's contribution
dominates, I'd say.
If you haven't heard it yet....
Rick Evans
In article <53mcvs$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> PObbard, pob...@aol.com
writes:
>points out, David has really made "White Light / White Heat" and "Waiting
>for the Man" his own songs through repeat performance and reworking. At
>this point, they're only marginally covers!
Now that is the dumbest thing I've read today!!
PObbard
Clearly, you haven't been following the US presidential election... :)
Philip
------------
"There are you / you drive like a demon / from Station to Station."
Rick Evans
In article <starfish-2708562049070001@pool1_2.odyssee.net> Mark Carter,
Excellent analysis!! I adore _Wrong Way Up_ too. Your right, there's no
way to call it ground breaking,"Bringing It Back Home" is more like it;
in that they kinda create an inverted pop album that's resting solidly on
all the ground they broke in the previous 20 some years. Both Cale and
Eno are excellent pop
writers, and have a similar style (this album reminds me of Cale's great
"1919"). This really is a fine fine album.
BTW, all the discussion about Reed vs. Bowie; did you know that there
was/is
a lot of tension between Eno and Cale? In fact, this tension is actually
highlighted in the cover art of the album (little lighting bolts going to
each other from their eyes). I wonder (here I go again) if that tension
comes from Cale being a little peaved that Eno kinda copped his style
in the 70's (both as an avant gardist and in similar pop tunesmithing
approach)? Also, both are renowned producers, but Eno on a much bigger
money level. Following this weird logic, Eno is to Bowie, what Cale is to
Lou Reed.
Here's another tangent for you, I recently read an interview with Cale,
When questioned about his recent VU collaboration with Reed and why it
fell apart, Cale basically said Reed initially says he's going to
be fair and collaborative, but then into the project Reed just
dominates/oppresses.
ph...@cts.com
>It's tough to even compare the two....just incredibly different styles. I
>Overall impression: Lou a better storyteller than David, Bowie a more
>versatile artist than Reed, Bowie surrounded by better musicians through
I love Lou Reed's "Berlin", "Transformer", "Rock and Roll Animal", but it
seemed that after the mid-70's....I'm not sure what it is. The VU stuff is
great, the non-LP extras on the boxed set are equally enjoyable, but then in
the latter 70's....I'm not sure if it's his vocal style or the arrangements or
what but I don't find myself listening to the last disk of the "Between
Thought and Expression" box. I can live with Lou's poppy stuff, "Rock and Roll
Heart" was a decent album.
If Lou came up with an album where he just sang deadpan and straightforward
like he does on "Andy's Chest" or "Men of Good Fortune" I'd buy it. I'm not
sure what it is, but his later stuff just sounds cluttered.
If you can handle having your skin peeled off, "Berlin" is a phenomenal album,
makes Bowie's "Repetition" a massive understatement.
Mark Carter
In article <53ui8i$4...@cello.gina.calstate.edu>, Rick Evans
<rev...@cello.gina.calstate.edu> wrote:
> In article <53mcvs$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> PObbard, pob...@aol.com
> writes:
> >points out, David has really made "White Light / White Heat" and "Waiting
> >for the Man" his own songs through repeat performance and reworking. At
> >this point, they're only marginally covers!
>
> Now that is the dumbest thing I've read today!!
Bowie outdoing the Velvet Underground on their own turf: this is quite
some conceit. I'm sure Bowie himself does not buy this conceit (God, I
would HOPE not!). If the listener is not left agog and stunned by the
originals, I'm afraid there's no hope. Everything I've heard by the VU,
with the possible exceptions of "Ferryboat Bill" and "Cool It Down", has
knocked me out. I've NEVER heard a cover of a VU song that outdoes the
original. Don't expect I ever will, either.
Tychot
This whole thread makes me think of DB's comments upon "introducing"
White light/heat in the ZSATSFM movie: He says something like "this was
written by one of the best writers of our time." (not verbatim--but the
jist is there). I remeber, when I heard this the first time I thought
about how cool it must have been to be Lou and hear Bowie give such
praise.
Guess a lot's changed since then--eh?
Ta!
--Tychot
Seamus Omalley
I think the Cowboy Junkies' "Sweet Jane" comes close to the original. Lou
disagrees, he says it surpasses the original.
: knocked me out. I've NEVER heard a cover of a VU song that outdoes the
Tychot
In article <54659l$3...@news.nyu.edu>, sqo...@is.nyu.edu (Seamus Omalley)
writes:
>
>: knocked me out. I've NEVER heard a cover of a VU song that outdoes the
>: original. Don't expect I ever will, either.
>
>
I recommend that you check out some of the VU covers done by Echo and the
Bunnymen (and the new incarnation of the band: Electrafixion). On the
most recent tour they did Pale Blue Eyes--wow! Ear Candy!!!
Ta!
Shaari
--Tychot
Matthew Smylie
In article <54659l$3...@news.nyu.edu>
sqo...@is.nyu.edu (Seamus Omalley) wrote:
>
> I think the Cowboy Junkies' "Sweet Jane" comes close to the original. Lou
> disagrees, he says it surpasses the original.
>
> : knocked me out. I've NEVER heard a cover of a VU song that outdoes the
> : original. Don't expect I ever will, either.
Hell, no!!!!! That Cowboy Junkies cover is the bigest load of crap
I've ever heard! They don't even sing all the verses. I've never heard the
Velvets' or Lou's version of 'Sweet Jane' on the radio, but I hear the
incredibly inferior version at least once every two days.
But then again, that's just me :-)
Rick Evans
In article <546m3l$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Tychot, tyc...@aol.com
writes:
>I recommend that you check out some of the VU covers done by Echo and the
>Bunnymen (and the new incarnation of the band: Electrafixion). On the
>most recent tour they did Pale Blue Eyes--wow! Ear Candy!!!
>
SOmeone else brings up the Cowboy Junkies version of Sweet Jane. I
contend
that their basic sound (same with Mazzy Star's) comes from hearing
Pale Blue Eyes and similar songs from VU. Just
show's what a huge impact VU had and still has on artists.
ph...@cts.com
In article <5487oi$2...@cello.gina.calstate.edu> Rick Evans <rev...@cello.gina.calstate.edu> writes:
>SOmeone else brings up the Cowboy Junkies version of Sweet Jane. I
>contend
>that their basic sound (same with Mazzy Star's) comes from hearing
>Pale Blue Eyes and similar songs from VU. Just
>show's what a huge impact VU had and still has on artists.
Uh, the Cowboy Junkies? *Their* version? Listen to the Velvets' version of
"Sweet Jane" on the 2LP set Live 1969 and you'll hear exactly where the
Cowboy Junkies lifted their version.
Jmv999
In article <starfish-2708562052510001@pool16_2.odyssee.net>,
star...@odyssee.net (Mark Carter) writes:
>Bowie outdoing the Velvet Underground on their own turf: this is quite
>some conceit. I'm sure Bowie himself does not buy this conceit (God, I
>would HOPE not!). If the listener is not left agog and stunned by the
>originals, I'm afraid there's no hope. Everything I've heard by the VU,
>with the possible exceptions of "Ferryboat Bill" and "Cool It Down", has
>knocked me out. I've NEVER heard a cover of a VU song that outdoes the
>original. Don't expect I ever will, either.
>
>
The live version of "Waiting For The Man" from the Santa Monica '72 show
is probably the best version of the song that I've ever heard (Mick Ronson
is God!) I know it's not the Velvet Underground, but listen to Ronno's
guitar on that version...incredible!
Jim