A safe departure (and how to have one)
Jim Beaver
drunken lout of a husband. Her teenaged daughter (not his) lives with them.
My friend has decided that enough is enough and that she and her daughter
are getting out and changing their lives for the good. The daughter is all
for it. My friend's parents, however, are not. They're deeply-dyed
fundamentalist Christians who keep telling her it's God's will that she stay
with her husband no matter what, that if she'd just be nicer to him, he'd
stop being a bastard to her, he really loves her, he'd never do anything TOO
mean, she's a whore and a trollop if she leaves him, blah, blah, blah.
At any rate, she's leaving anyway, finally having decided that she doesn't
care what her parents think and doesn't care that she doesn't have any
money. She wants out. Period. But.........
She has a few belongings (a computer, some legal documents, personal
photographs, some inexpensive but crucial recording instruments for her
music) and her daughter has a few (clothes, computer, books) that she would
like to take. She thinks she could almost but not quite get it all in her
car. So it's not much, certainly for someone uprooting her whole life.
The problem in this soap opera (i.e., domestic horror story happening to
someone else) is that she's afraid of the husband. Afraid (a.) that he'll
kill her or himself, depending on which mood he's in or (b.) that he'll chop
up her belongings (he's threatened to) and/or burn the house down (he's
threatened to). She's staying at her parents (getting all THAT
encouragement). She has a job opportunity with a friend in California (not
me), and wants to go, but if she could get her stuff, that would be lovely.
She's prepared to sacrifice everything she owns if she has to, but prefers
not to. Even though the house is in both names, she wants nothing of it.
She just wants her meager personal belongings, and her daughter's.
So, after this long-winded set-up, what can she do? Will the police go with
her to get her stuff merely on her belief that violence might otherwise
ensue? She has no friends in the area, certainly none in a position to act
as bodyguards. Are there private security people who would handle such a
thing, if she could raise the money to "rent" an escort if the police won't
go? I hate to see her go there herself at all, even escorted. She's also
afraid that a police escort would result in hubby getting busted for
something or other and doesn't want that to happen, mainly for her own
safety from later retribution. She suggested hiring a moving company to go
get her stuff, but I can't imagine a moving company be willing to go into
such a situation, not knowing what stuff was whose, with a truculent
resident in the house. Her parents, to their credit, have offered to go
with her (hubby adores them and semi-vice versa), but they can't for a
couple of weeks (they live hundreds of miles away). Every day she waits for
them, she's not only increasing his anger at her being gone, but she's
living with the destructive advice of her parents just to go back home and
grin and bear it with her marriage.
Any ideas, guys? I'd appreciate it. I feel as though bad things could
happen and my imagination for solutions is failing me.
Jim Beaver
Lee Ayrton
> A friend of mine on the other side of the country lives with an abusive
> drunken lout of a husband. Her teenaged daughter (not his) lives with them.
> My friend has decided that enough is enough and that she and her daughter are
> getting out and changing their lives for the good. The daughter is all for
> it. My friend's parents, however, are not. They're deeply-dyed
> fundamentalist Christians who keep telling her it's God's will that she stay
> with her husband no matter what, that if she'd just be nicer to him, he'd
> stop being a bastard to her, he really loves her, he'd never do anything TOO
> mean, she's a whore and a trollop if she leaves him, blah, blah, blah.
Well, that explains her self-esteem issue and why she's hooked up with
a lout. Tell her that the parents' problem with her divorce is _their_
problem, not hers.
[Long quote, can't decide what to snip]
I have some thoughts, but I am by no means expert in any of this.
First: She needs a divorce lawyer. That should be the best source of
advice on all of the above, and she may need a local lawyer to file the
divorce papers for her (I'm assuming that some states may require local
filing rather than out of state filing).
Second: She needs to get away from those parents.
Third: Wait for a day when Lout should be at work, back a Penske[1] truck
up to the door first thing in the morning and slop-load what she needs to
take. Just heave it in. Drive the truck to a PODS[2] yard (NOT her
parents yard) and pack the shipping container. The point is to get in and
out of the house as fast as possible, before Lout comes home or before a
neighbor calls him, and that he not be able to find her.
Fourth: Movers are probably used to such situations. I'm sure it costs
extra. And movers are more expensive than shipping cubes.
Fifth: Once this starts Lout must /not/ know where she is. No hiding in
known places - like her parents' house. He _will_ try to find her, if
only to beg, plead and whine. Pack the cube, get in the car and drive to
CA. Since Lout is tight with her parents she should make an excuse for
all correspondence to go through her lawyer for a while, even for them.[3]
Sixth: Change the billing address on all of her bills (credit cards, cell
phone, &c) now. Most will send a confirming letter to the old address,
she doesn't want that to fall into Lout's hands if the post office fails
to redirect it.
Seventh: Restraining orders never save anyone from a determined foe. The
better approach is to not be findable.
Good luck to her.
[1] Penske or Ryder, but not U-Haul. I've known too many people that had
equipment problems with U-Haul, and she doesn't want to be in a truck that
breaks down a block from the house. A van should do it.
[2] Any one of a number of small shipping container services. You load
the cube and lock it. They ship it across the country and deliver it or
store it. Easier than dragging a U-Haul trailer across country.
[3] Lout comes over to visit them, leafs through the mail, sees her return
address -- or they tell him outright. Nothing nice ensues.
hymie!
"Jim Beaver" <jumb...@prodigy.spam>, who said:
>So, after this long-winded set-up, what can she do? Will the police go with
>her to get her stuff merely on her belief that violence might otherwise
>ensue?
Not sure how much this helps, but when my former-step-mother left her
first husband, this was the route she took. She grabbed their son and
walked out one day, and returned with a policeman a few days later to
reclaim some belongings.
YMMV of course. But it probably won't hurt to ask them if they will.
--hymie! http://lactose.homelinux.net/~hymie hy...@lactose.homelinux.net
------------------------ Without caffeine for 806 days ------------------------
Charles Bishop
Ayrton <lay...@panix.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Jim Beaver wrote:
>
>> A friend of mine on the other side of the country lives with an abusive
>> drunken lout of a husband. Her teenaged daughter (not his) lives with them.
>> My friend has decided that enough is enough and that she and her
daughter are
>> getting out and changing their lives for the good. The daughter is all for
>> it. My friend's parents, however, are not. They're deeply-dyed
>> fundamentalist Christians who keep telling her it's God's will that she stay
>> with her husband no matter what, that if she'd just be nicer to him, he'd
>> stop being a bastard to her, he really loves her, he'd never do anything TOO
>> mean, she's a whore and a trollop if she leaves him, blah, blah, blah.
[snip]
>[Long quote, can't decide what to snip]
I did anyway, for space
I'll echo what Lee says. If Lout isn't working find a time when he'll be
out of the house.
A mail drop might work as a temp address, might not.
The cops might help, but I've knows situations when a woman had a court
order to retreive stuff and the cops that were there to help her didn't so
much. If she depends on the cops, also depend on the lawyer to be there to
help with the cops.
Make sure the Lout can't report her car as "stolen" after she leaves in
it. Sell it and fly cross country or buy a new one ahead of time.
If she is coming to CA, you have a network of friends that might be her
network of friends.
--
charles
Jim Beaver
"Lee Ayrton" <lay...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.64.09...@panix1.panix.com...
Thanks for all this. Very much appreciated.
Update: Either my friend or her parents told Lout she was done with him,
that they were coming to get her stuff, and he went apeshit. Parents have
finally had the veil lifted from their eyes, because he screamed at them all
the terrible stuff he was going to do. They've decided to accompany her to
Lout's house, leave her elsewhere while the parents go into the house and
get the stuff. They've threatened to bring the police in with them if he
gives them any trouble. He in turn has threatened to do everything from
burning the stuff and/or house to writing nasty stuff about her on the
internet. My friend's dad, a backwoodsman type, is almost certainly packing
heat and feels he can manage the situation. None of this will happen till
mid-evening, as the family is in transit right now.
I'm nervous as hell. The only advice I could think of was to tell her to
tell her folks to show up brandishing an open cellphone, making clear that
someone else was on the speakerphone on the other end, so that anything said
or done would be heard. Beyond that, I'm pretty freaked but adviceless.
The other advice (lawyers, credit cards, addresses, etc.) will be followed
(thanks again), but the evening has to be gotten through first. The "good"
thing is that everyone seems to think the Lout is more likely to off himself
than someone else, but I never trust anything when there's a rageaholic
involved in a situation he's never been in before.
More later. Please, God, no film at eleven.
Jim Beaver
Don K
news:%Krbl.10384$W06....@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Any ideas, guys? I'd appreciate it. I feel as though bad things could happen and my
> imagination for solutions is failing me.
>
> Jim Beaver
Do a google search for battered women shelter
There's plenty of sites with good advice on how to extricate yourself.
http://www.ehow.com/how_8640_find-battered-womens.html
IMO, she needs to get away from her idiot parents' house and into a safe
shelter where she can plan out her next moves, which should include legal
advice (free if necessary), getting a protective order, getting a police
escort to remove her stuff, etc.
The first priority is to remove herself away from the jerk and not worry
about his tantrums or how he might hurt himself. She should plan on eventually
claiming her share of the house, property, etc. though.
If I was her, I'd also get myself a gun for self-protection.
You read too often about murder-suicide nutcases.
Don
M. Shirley Chong
> A friend of mine on the other side of the country lives with an abusive
> drunken lout of a husband. Her teenaged daughter (not his) lives with
> them. My friend has decided that enough is enough and that she and her
> daughter are getting out and changing their lives for the good. The
> daughter is all for it. My friend's parents, however, are not. They're
> deeply-dyed fundamentalist Christians who keep telling her it's God's
> will that she stay with her husband no matter what, that if she'd just
> be nicer to him, he'd stop being a bastard to her, he really loves her,
> he'd never do anything TOO mean, she's a whore and a trollop if she
> leaves him, blah, blah, blah.
>
> At any rate, she's leaving anyway, finally having decided that she
> doesn't care what her parents think and doesn't care that she doesn't
> have any money. She wants out.
I hope she knows she's actually in more danger now. Statistically,
this is the most dangerous period of the relationship, the first six
months after getting out.
> She has a few belongings (a computer, some legal documents, personal
> photographs, some inexpensive but crucial recording instruments for her
> music) and her daughter has a few (clothes, computer, books) that she
> would like to take. She thinks she could almost but not quite get it
> all in her car. So it's not much, certainly for someone uprooting her
> whole life.
Nope. Can she rent a van or larger vehicle so she only has to make
one trip?
> The problem in this soap opera (i.e., domestic horror story happening to
> someone else) is that she's afraid of the husband. Afraid (a.) that
> he'll kill her or himself, depending on which mood he's in or (b.) that
> he'll chop up her belongings (he's threatened to) and/or burn the house
> down (he's threatened to).
Those are all rational fears and, sadly, come true too often.
> She's staying at her parents (getting all
> THAT encouragement).
This is going to sound awful but is she certain her parents would
not betray her? Maybe rationalising it's for her own good? By doing
something like giving him a key to the house and promising to be
away from home on a certain day, I mean.
If she isn't absolutely 1000% convinced her parents would never
betray her that way, she's better off staying with a friend, staying
at a shelter, etc.
> So, after this long-winded set-up, what can she do? Will the police go
> with her to get her stuff merely on her belief that violence might
> otherwise ensue?
Depends on the state. In Iowa, the police will provide an escort but
will only allow the victim to remove belongings that are clearly
personal (like clothing). If the husband doesn't object, they will
often let the victim take things that are somewhat ambiguous, like
photo albums. A personal computer is probably beyond the line
because it could be considered a community asset by the court.
In Iowa, the police are more than happy to do the escort thing. They
would so much rather send a couple officers out on a one hour job
than have to investigate an assault or murder. When I volunteered
for the local domestic violence program, the police were honestly
some of the most supportive people we dealt with--they were very
relieved to have a place to refer victims to.
> She has no friends in the area, certainly none in a
> position to act as bodyguards.
That can either go really well or go really badly. Most abusers are
very conscious of their public image; most of them claim to hit only
when they lose control but it's curious how rare it is for an abuser
to lose control in public.
> Are there private security people who
> would handle such a thing, if she could raise the money to "rent" an
> escort if the police won't go? I hate to see her go there herself at
> all, even escorted. She's also afraid that a police escort would result
> in hubby getting busted for something or other and doesn't want that to
> happen, mainly for her own safety from later retribution.
Timing may be important, then--in other words, time it for the
morning she's driving out of town on her way to California.
And if she does go to California, she shouldn't give her home
address to her soon-to-be ex, her parents or even her lawyer. There
are rent-a-mailbox services in California and it's money well spent.
If she gets a landline, pay for the service to permanently block her
number from showing up on Caller ID and don't give the phone number
out, either. Get one of those voicemail services where people call
an 800 number and then punch in the owner's extension number in
order to leave a message.
If I sound paranoid, it's probably because I'm still alive after
doing some really stupid shit when I was younger.
> She suggested
> hiring a moving company to go get her stuff, but I can't imagine a
> moving company be willing to go into such a situation, not knowing what
> stuff was whose, with a truculent resident in the house.
Probably not.
> Her parents,
> to their credit, have offered to go with her (hubby adores them and
> semi-vice versa), but they can't for a couple of weeks (they live
> hundreds of miles away).
And really, they are in danger as well. Remember the shooting Santa
from December? He got his ex-wife and a significant percentage of
her family as well.
> Any ideas, guys? I'd appreciate it. I feel as though bad things could
> happen and my imagination for solutions is failing me.
One option is to mentally give up on the stuff. Pretend there was a
house fire, pretend she got out with her life and go on from there.
That is probably the safest option.
Is there a domestic violence shelter or program anywhere near her
former residence? They would be the ones who would be most
up-to-date on what local options there are.
Something she should also think about is getting a lawyer. Even
though she doesn't plan to contest it or ask for anything as a
settlement, she cannot give up her daughter's rights as well. Plus
having a lawyer and asking that all communications be directed to
her lawyer inserts one layer between the two of them. It's not much
but it can help take some of the heat out of the situation.
Shirley
Lee Ayrton
[snip]
>> She's staying at her parents (getting all THAT encouragement).
>
> This is going to sound awful but is she certain her parents would not betray
> her? Maybe rationalising it's for her own good? By doing something like
> giving him a key to the house and promising to be away from home on a certain
> day, I mean.
To help them "work it out". It isn't a cite, mind, but one of the most
common phrases heard on those true crime re-nactment shows is "They were
having marital problems, but they were working on it."
> If she isn't absolutely 1000% convinced her parents would never betray her
> that way, she's better off staying with a friend, staying at a shelter, etc.
That was exactly my thinking. Because, in the worse case:
[snip many lines]
>> Her parents, to their credit, have offered to go with her (hubby adores
>> them and semi-vice versa), but they can't for a couple of weeks (they live
>> hundreds of miles away).
It could be that hubby doesn't adore them, he's just shining them on so
they think the abuse is their daughter's fault.
> Something she should also think about is getting a lawyer. Even though she
> doesn't plan to contest it or ask for anything as a settlement, she cannot
> give up her daughter's rights as well. Plus having a lawyer and asking that
> all communications be directed to her lawyer inserts one layer between the
> two of them. It's not much but it can help take some of the heat out of the
> situation.
Lawyer up. Definitely.
--
"I have never yet encountered a semi-trailer in my bathroom." Jen puts a
bright face on the state of the transit system in AFC-A.
Lee Ayrton
> Update: Either my friend or her parents told Lout she was done with him,
> that they were coming to get her stuff, and he went apeshit. Parents have
Ah well. So much for the element of surprise.
[...]
> I'm nervous as hell. The only advice I could think of was to tell her to
> tell her folks to show up brandishing an open cellphone, making clear that
> someone else was on the speakerphone on the other end, so that anything said
> or done would be heard. Beyond that, I'm pretty freaked but adviceless.
>
> The other advice (lawyers, credit cards, addresses, etc.) will be followed
> (thanks again), but the evening has to be gotten through first. The "good"
> thing is that everyone seems to think the Lout is more likely to off himself
> than someone else, but I never trust anything when there's a rageaholic
> involved in a situation he's never been in before.
Please do keep us posted.
Oh, and if she has any joint accounts with Lout she needs to close them
_now_. She doesn't need to be paying off 1,000 internet porn
subsciptions, a pickup truck and a boat.
M. Shirley Chong
> Update: Either my friend or her parents told Lout she was done with
> him, that they were coming to get her stuff, and he went apeshit.
> Parents have finally had the veil lifted from their eyes, because he
> screamed at them all the terrible stuff he was going to do. They've
> decided to accompany her to Lout's house, leave her elsewhere while the
> parents go into the house and get the stuff. They've threatened to
> bring the police in with them if he gives them any trouble.
It's too late for this situation but just in case someone else reads
it and tucks a thought away for possible future need: never NEVER
tell the enemy your strategic plans! In situations like this, speak
of peace ("we don't want any trouble" for example) but not of plans.
Why give him a reason to escalate and something to plan for?
Granted, calling the police is pretty basic and obvious but if he
hadn't thought of the possibility, don't hand it to him! Let it be a
surprise to him.
In the words of the immortal bard Sun Tzu: "All warfare is based on
deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when
using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must
make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make
him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign
disorder, and crush him." _The Art of War_
> He in turn
> has threatened to do everything from burning the stuff and/or house to
> writing nasty stuff about her on the internet.
This may be a good indicator. He's enraged but still inhibited
enough not to threaten bodily harm.
> I'm nervous as hell. The only advice I could think of was to tell her
> to tell her folks to show up brandishing an open cellphone, making clear
> that someone else was on the speakerphone on the other end, so that
> anything said or done would be heard.
Excellent. Most abusers really don't want public scrutiny, so the
more the parents can do to make him feel that lots of people are
watching, the better.
> The other advice (lawyers, credit cards, addresses, etc.) will be
> followed (thanks again), but the evening has to be gotten through
> first. The "good" thing is that everyone seems to think the Lout is
> more likely to off himself than someone else, but I never trust anything
> when there's a rageaholic involved in a situation he's never been in
> before.
Very wise and you're absolutely correct.
Shirley
bill van
"Jim Beaver" <jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:
I'm late to the party, but let me echo those posters who suggested
contacting the nearest women's shelter or equivalent, quickly. Whether
the need is a place to stay, legal advice or post-traumatic counselling,
they will know exactly what the local resources are.
--
bill
remove my country for e-mail
Lesmond
>
>I'm nervous as hell.
Yes, and now I am, too. Please let us know what happens.
--
Only a fool would try to save what the desert chose to leave.
Jeannie
wrote:
> Jim Beaver wrote:
>
> Timing may be important, then--in other words, time it for the
> morning she's driving out of town on her way to California.
>
> And if she does go to California, she shouldn't give her home
> address to her soon-to-be ex, her parents or even her lawyer. There
> are rent-a-mailbox services in California and it's money well spent.
> If she gets a landline, pay for the service to permanently block her
> number from showing up on Caller ID and don't give the phone number
> out, either. Get one of those voicemail services where people call
> an 800 number and then punch in the owner's extension number in
> order to leave a message.
And with all this talk about California, don't post any further
information about where she ends up. Even louts can use search
engines.
Jeannie
Greg Goss
>I'm nervous as hell. The only advice I could think of was to tell her to
>tell her folks to show up brandishing an open cellphone, making clear that
>someone else was on the speakerphone on the other end, so that anything said
>or done would be heard. Beyond that, I'm pretty freaked but adviceless.
Everyone should remember the cellphone item.
A friend of mine can't seem to extricate herself from her ex-BF. For
some reason she needs to stay social with him since she kicked him out
five months ago. They still argue and he still makes nasty threats,
then she starts hanging out with him again.
Anyhow -- for two of their breakups (before labour day) I slept on her
couch till morning. And after one of the recent fights, I insisted
that she phone me as she was driving up to her parking spot and that
she keep the phone going till she'd locked her apartment.
Information is power. Make sure that there are witnesses.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
...the oldest story in the history of hegemonic powers. The dominant
power concentrates (to its detriment) on the military; the candidate
for successor concentrates on the economy. (Immanuel Wallerstein)
M. Shirley Chong
>> This is going to sound awful but is she certain her parents would not
>> betray her? Maybe rationalising it's for her own good? By doing
>> something like giving him a key to the house and promising to be away
>> from home on a certain day, I mean.
Lee Ayrton wrote:
> To help them "work it out". It isn't a cite, mind, but one of the most
> common phrases heard on those true crime re-nactment shows is "They were
> having marital problems, but they were working on it."
<shudder> Yeah. And on TV, it usually works out great, the couple
lives happily forever afterwards and are ever so grateful to whoever
butted into their affairs to force them to confront each other.
Jim Beaver wrote:
>>> Her parents, to their credit, have offered to go with her (hubby
>>> adores them and semi-vice versa), but they can't for a couple of
>>> weeks (they live hundreds of miles away).
Lee Ayrton wrote:
> It could be that hubby doesn't adore them, he's just shining them on so
> they think the abuse is their daughter's fault.
Or he thinks they agree that the abuse is her fault (the abuser
often says that they are being forced to hit by the victim).
I should be too young to know all this about dysfunctional human
relationships. Everyone should be too young.
Shirley
Lisa Ann
news:%Krbl.10384$W06....@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>drunken lout of a husband. Her teenaged daughter (not his) lives with
>them. My friend has decided that enough is enough and that she and her
>daughter are getting out and changing their lives for the good. The
>daughter is all for it. My friend's parents, however, are not. They're
>deeply-dyed fundamentalist Christians who keep telling her it's God's will
>that she stay with her husband no matter what, that if she'd just be nicer
>to him, he'd stop being a bastard to her, he really loves her, he'd never
>do anything TOO mean, she's a whore and a trollop if she leaves him, blah,
>blah, blah.
You're right, a moving company (which is what I used) would require some
cooperation from the husband.
I'd first suggest calling the police and explaining the situation, that she
just wants to retrieve some personal belongings. Since the house is in both
their names, and presumably the contents inside are jointly owned, the
police probably aren't going to require that she prove she owns what she
wants - that would be a matter for a divorce court to decide. The police
should be willing to provide their presence because violence "might" ensue -
and their presence might prevent any violence.
As for her parents...yeah, I can see how family pressure might make her
reconsider...I stayed with Eddie for much longer than I should have, because
I *thought* the family expected it of me (What kind of woman leaves a
disabled guy?) When Mom told me, after getting a clearer picture of what
the situation was really like, that no one would think less of me for
leaving (and if they did, fuck them) and that Gramma would not want me
living the life I was living...it was a huge weight off my mind. It still
took me a couple months before I left, but I did leave.
But if her parents are telling her that if she'd just be nicer he'd be
nicer, if she just did this or didn't do that, hubby would be all sweetness
and light...clearly they have no idea what the situation is, so their
"advice" is worthless. (She might, however, want to point out that the
Bible prohibits divorce and adultery...and she's just leaving the SOB,
there's no guarantee that she's going to divorce him, so that takes care of
*that* little issue. And there's no guarantee she's going to have sex with
someone else, so adultery is a non-issue also. Besides, the Bible also
admonishes husbands to treat their wives with love and respect.)
Finally, if her husband has threatened to kill himself, kill her, burn the
house down, whatever he has threatened...take him seriously and don't be
alone with him. And if he *does* choose to kill himself or burn the house
down...it's not her fault. He was going to do those things anyway,
regardless of what she did or didn't do. As for fear of retribution...I
would hope that moving clear across the country would reduce the chance of
that happening.
I wish her the best, Jim. Keep us posted on how it's resolved.
Lisa Ann
Jim Beaver
My friend's parents went with her to the Lout's town. They left her at a
cafe while mom & dad went to the Lout's house to get her stuff and her
daughter's. Lout let them take the daughter's stuff, but had hidden various
items of my friend's (the journal she'd kept since age 13, her backup disks,
her collection of porcelain dolls, etc.) and said she could have them when
she came to get them personally. She's pained awfully about the loss, but
ain't goin' back. She left her car (in his name) and her house (in both
their names) and her cat.
Today she's closing out her (solo) bank account. There are no joint
accounts, bank or credit card. She's renting a car (one-way) and tomorrow
she's heading to the West Coast. She's calling a lawyer. I found her a
mail-forwarding service that scans mail and sends it by .pdf to her email.
It looks like she's out safely, though I won't feel secure for a long time,
I fear. Thanks for the advice, everyone. I passed as much of it as
practical along.
Jim Beaver
Kajikit
I'm glad she's out... but it's a shame they left the cat behind. I
wouldn't want to be that poor creature in the hands of a vindictive
soon-to-be-ex.
D.F. Manno
> Seventh: Restraining orders never save anyone from a determined foe. The
> better approach is to not be findable.
To that end may I recommend a book titled "How To Be Invisible" by J.J.
Luna? Lots of good advice on how to fly under the radar.
<http://www.howtobeinvisible.com/>
<http://www.amazon.com/How-Invisible-Step-Step-Protecting/dp/0312252501>
--
D.F. Manno
dfm...@mail.com
Lee Ayrton
> I wrote:
>
>>> This is going to sound awful but is she certain her parents would not
>>> betray her? Maybe rationalising it's for her own good? By doing something
>>> like giving him a key to the house and promising to be away from home on a
>>> certain day, I mean.
>
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
>> To help them "work it out". It isn't a cite, mind, but one of the most
>> common phrases heard on those true crime re-nactment shows is "They were
>> having marital problems, but they were working on it."
>
> <shudder> Yeah. And on TV, it usually works out great, the couple lives
> happily forever afterwards and are ever so grateful to whoever butted into
> their affairs to force them to confront each other.
Those would be the Lifetime movies. What I had in mind was the forsensic
science shows on Discovery.
> I should be too young to know all this about dysfunctional human
> relationships. Everyone should be too young.
I'll drink to that.
Lee Ayrton
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:50:08 -0800, "Jim Beaver"
> <jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:
>
>> She's got some of her stuff and she's out. So far, so good.
[...]
>> It looks like she's out safely, though I won't feel secure for a long time,
>> I fear. Thanks for the advice, everyone. I passed as much of it as
>> practical along.
>
> I'm glad she's out... but it's a shame they left the cat behind. I
> wouldn't want to be that poor creature in the hands of a vindictive
> soon-to-be-ex.
Those were my thoughts as well.
Kajikit
wrote:
Let's hope he just puts the poor thing out on the street and it can
find itself a new home...
dan
alt.fan.cecil-adams mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:20:16 -0500:
>I have some thoughts, but I am by no means expert in any of this.
>
>First: She needs a divorce lawyer. That should be the best source of
>advice on all of the above, and she may need a local lawyer to file the
>divorce papers for her (I'm assuming that some states may require local
>filing rather than out of state filing).
I second this. A divorce lawyer will also recommend/insist on, a
restraining order.
>
>Second: She needs to get away from those parents.
Agreed.
>
>
>Fifth: Once this starts Lout must /not/ know where she is. No hiding in
>known places - like her parents' house. He _will_ try to find her, if
>only to beg, plead and whine.
If only.
> Pack the cube, get in the car and drive to
>CA. Since Lout is tight with her parents she should make an excuse for
>all correspondence to go through her lawyer for a while, even for them.[3]
Yep.
>
>Sixth: Change the billing address on all of her bills (credit cards, cell
>phone, &c) now. Most will send a confirming letter to the old address,
>she doesn't want that to fall into Lout's hands if the post office fails
>to redirect it.
>
>Seventh: Restraining orders never save anyone from a determined foe. The
>better approach is to not be findable.
agreed.
--
Dan H.
dan
alt.fan.cecil-adams mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by
>Information is power. Make sure that there are witnesses.
Witnesses suck. Get video tape.
--
Dan H.
dan
alt.fan.cecil-adams mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by
>If she gets a landline, pay for the service to permanently block her
>number from showing up on Caller ID and don't give the phone number
>out, either.
Not good enough!! I have talked many telco operators into giving out
an address. Get a pre-paid cell phone. Pay with cash.
--
Dan H.
M. Shirley Chong
> She's got some of her stuff and she's out. So far, so good.
YAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!!!!
> My friend's parents went with her to the Lout's town. They left her at
> a cafe while mom & dad went to the Lout's house to get her stuff and her
> daughter's.
Parents were seriously misguided for awhile but they have big brass
cojones, both of them.
> Lout let them take the daughter's stuff, but had hidden
> various items of my friend's (the journal she'd kept since age 13, her
> backup disks, her collection of porcelain dolls, etc.) and said she
> could have them when she came to get them personally. She's pained
> awfully about the loss, but ain't goin' back. She left her car (in his
> name) and her house (in both their names) and her cat.
That's a typical ploy and she did the right thing. Those are just
things (except for the cat) and not worth risking her life over. The
cat is a living being and even though I love animals, I think she
did the right thing to leave the cat, as well. She has a child and
that child must come first.
> Today she's closing out her (solo) bank account. There are no joint
> accounts, bank or credit card. She's renting a car (one-way) and
> tomorrow she's heading to the West Coast. She's calling a lawyer. I
> found her a mail-forwarding service that scans mail and sends it by .pdf
> to her email.
Oh, excellent! That's quite a resource, I'll tuck it away in my head
hoping I never need to know that.
> It looks like she's out safely, though I won't feel secure for a long
> time, I fear. Thanks for the advice, everyone. I passed as much of it
> as practical along.
You're a good friend, Jim. Those are scary situations.
Shirley
Hactar
Seconded. I bought my phone at Wally World with greenbacks, and it was
activated as soon as I got home. Never gave them my name, so they can't
possibly give it out. I bought most of the top-up minutes with a CC
(some over the net, some in person), but I don't _think_ there's a
connection between any particular card and some airtime. If I'm wrong
then I'm sure the NSA will show me the error of my ways. At any rate,
you could buy airtime cards in person with cash too.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
Two atoms are discussing whether or not to go into a bar. The first atom
says, "I don't know about this place. Last time I went in there, I lost
an electron." The second atom says, "Don't worry, I'll keep my ion you."
Charles Bishop
<eit...@netins.net.spam.not> wrote:
>Jim Beaver wrote:
>
>> She's got some of her stuff and she's out. So far, so good.
>
>YAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!!!!
>
>> My friend's parents went with her to the Lout's town. They left her at
>> a cafe while mom & dad went to the Lout's house to get her stuff and her
>> daughter's.
>
>Parents were seriously misguided for awhile but they have big brass
>cojones, both of them.
>
>> Lout let them take the daughter's stuff, but had hidden
>> various items of my friend's (the journal she'd kept since age 13, her
>> backup disks, her collection of porcelain dolls, etc.) and said she
>> could have them when she came to get them personally. She's pained
>> awfully about the loss, but ain't goin' back. She left her car (in his
>> name) and her house (in both their names) and her cat.
>
>That's a typical ploy and she did the right thing. Those are just
>things (except for the cat) and not worth risking her life over. The
>cat is a living being and even though I love animals, I think she
>did the right thing to leave the cat, as well. She has a child and
>that child must come first.
The Lout wanted to keep the cat but said nothing about the child? Or did
Jim say the child was by another father?
--
charles
Snidely
> mail-forwarding service that scans mail and sends it by .pdf to her email.
Saw that one on the news (probably LA's Ch 7 was my source).
/dps
Bob Dahl
wrote:
>
> Seconded. I bought my phone at Wally World with greenbacks, and it was
> activated as soon as I got home. Never gave them my name, so they can't
> possibly give it out. I bought most of the top-up minutes with a CC
> (some over the net, some in person), but I don't _think_ there's a
> connection between any particular card and some airtime. If I'm wrong
> then I'm sure the NSA will show me the error of my ways. At any rate,
> you could buy airtime cards in person with cash too.
They probably couldn't directly TRACE it to a purchaser, but I'd bet
they would still have a picture of the purchaser on their super-duper
tape recorder at the WWorld. The authorities would have another bit of
'circumstantial' evidence, then.
Hactar
Real-world video recording doesn't act like CSI (and L&O, and pretty
much all the rest of them) recordings where they can get pretty much
infinite resolution out of a fuzzy original. I suppose for extra
security you could send in another person, or wear theatrical makeup.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
Drive nail here > < for new monitor.
M. Shirley Chong
>> That's a typical ploy and she did the right thing. Those are just
>> things (except for the cat) and not worth risking her life over. The
>> cat is a living being and even though I love animals, I think she
>> did the right thing to leave the cat, as well. She has a child and
>> that child must come first.
Charles Bishop wrote:
> The Lout wanted to keep the cat but said nothing about the child? Or did
> Jim say the child was by another father?
Jim did not specify. He did say the child is high school age, so
probably at least 14 years old, the age when courts in Iowa give
most consideration to the wishes of the child in determining
custody. Courts in other states may vary.
In a case where one parent is abusive to the other parent, is the
abusive parent really a fit parent to the children? I think the
answer would have to be no.
Shirley
M. Shirley Chong
>> Seconded. I bought my phone at Wally World with greenbacks, and it was
>> activated as soon as I got home. Never gave them my name, so they can't
>> possibly give it out. I bought most of the top-up minutes with a CC
>> (some over the net, some in person), but I don't _think_ there's a
>> connection between any particular card and some airtime.
Bob Dahl wrote:
> They probably couldn't directly TRACE it to a purchaser, but I'd bet
> they would still have a picture of the purchaser on their super-duper
> tape recorder at the WWorld. The authorities would have another bit of
> 'circumstantial' evidence, then.
If a person had reason to want to be really devious (for instance,
someone who has a stalker or an abusive, vengeful ex), it is
possible to get online debit cards in any name, associated with any
USAn address. Buy the phone online, using a made up name and mail
drop service for the address (pay for the mail drop service with cash).
Shirley
Charles Bishop
<eit...@netins.net.spam.not> wrote:
Sure. But. We only have one side of the story (Ping Les) and taking a
child out of the area of the other parent shouldn't be done without a
custody order, IMO. Even if the story is as Jim represents it (and I have
no doubt that it is) I think it should require a court judgment, to
protect the cases where the facts aren't as clear.
--
charles
Les Albert
Bishop) wrote:
>In article <2gn87r....@news.alt.net>, "M. Shirley Chong"
><eit...@netins.net.spam.not> wrote:
>>I wrote:
>>>> That's a typical ploy and she did the right thing. Those are just
>>>> things (except for the cat) and not worth risking her life over. The
>>>> cat is a living being and even though I love animals, I think she
>>>> did the right thing to leave the cat, as well. She has a child and
>>>> that child must come first.
>>Charles Bishop wrote:
>>> The Lout wanted to keep the cat but said nothing about the child? Or did
>>> Jim say the child was by another father?
>>Jim did not specify. He did say the child is high school age, so
>>probably at least 14 years old, the age when courts in Iowa give
>>most consideration to the wishes of the child in determining
>>custody. Courts in other states may vary.
>>In a case where one parent is abusive to the other parent, is the
>>abusive parent really a fit parent to the children? I think the
>>answer would have to be no.
>Sure. But. We only have one side of the story (Ping Les) ...
Never mind, I made my point. I just wonder why anyone comes to a
group like this to get advice about resolving a potentially very
dangerous situation ('risk of life' was mentioned) involving a lout, a
woman, and a child. Additionally, if you read any follow-ups that are
posted you will usually find that the people who were feared for
resolved the situation by themselves for the most part (but the
questions do make for interesting reading).
Les
Dover Beach
news:ctbishop-160...@dialup-4.246.238.85.dial1.sanjose1.level3.ne
t:
> Sure. But. We only have one side of the story (Ping Les) and taking a
> child out of the area of the other parent shouldn't be done without a
> custody order, IMO. Even if the story is as Jim represents it (and I
> have no doubt that it is) I think it should require a court judgment, to
> protect the cases where the facts aren't as clear.
>
Actually, in the initial message, Jim did specify that the Lout was not
the father of the Girl.
--
Dover
Lee Ayrton
[Attributions FUBAR'd]
>>> The Lout wanted to keep the cat but said nothing about the child? Or did
>>> Jim say the child was by another father?
>>
>> Jim did not specify. He did say the child is high school age, so
>> probably at least 14 years old, the age when courts in Iowa give
>> most consideration to the wishes of the child in determining
>> custody. Courts in other states may vary.
>>
>> In a case where one parent is abusive to the other parent, is the
>> abusive parent really a fit parent to the children? I think the
>> answer would have to be no.
>
> Sure. But. We only have one side of the story (Ping Les) and taking a
> child out of the area of the other parent shouldn't be done without a
> custody order, IMO. Even if the story is as Jim represents it (and I have
> no doubt that it is) I think it should require a court judgment, to
> protect the cases where the facts aren't as clear.
*sigh* Bad information just leads to more bad information. From Jim's
original post:
[quote]-------------------------------
A friend of mine on the other side of the country lives with an abusive
drunken lout of a husband. Her teenaged daughter (not his) lives with
them. My friend has decided that enough is enough and that she and her
daughter are getting out and changing their lives for the good. The
daughter is all for it.
[unquote]----------------------------
Teenaged daughter, not his. No mention of high school. No mention of
adoption. No need for a court order. Daughter is all for the move.
Charles Bishop
<lalb...@aol.com> wrote:
Just to be clear, the "Ping Les" was only an aside related to the "there's
always more to the story" and not to any posts you made here. So, I missed
the point you were making, and wasn't calling it into question.
--
charles
Charles Bishop
OK. Though there isn't enough information to tell if the Lout has any
parental rights. I don't think so or else Jim probably would have
mentioned it.
--
charles
Lee Ayrton
> Never mind, I made my point. I just wonder why anyone comes to a
> group like this to get advice about resolving a potentially very
> dangerous situation ('risk of life' was mentioned) involving a lout, a
> woman, and a child. Additionally, if you read any follow-ups that are
> posted you will usually find that the people who were feared for
> resolved the situation by themselves for the most part (but the
> questions do make for interesting reading).
Because he wanted to help her and wanted input. Because there's a wide
range of people here with a wide range of experience. Because the group
runs about 20 hours a day and you can get a reasonable response by
morning. Because sometimes it is possible to work you way to solutions
just by talking about it. Because he was guessing and wanted to see a
consensus of guesses.
Veronique
wrote:
> Charles Bishop wrote:
> Shirley replied:
> >> That's a typical ploy and she did the right thing. Those are just
> >> things (except for the cat) and not worth risking her life over. The
> >> cat is a living being and even though I love animals, I think she
> >> did the right thing to leave the cat, as well. She has a child and
> >> that child must come first.
> > The Lout wanted to keep the cat but said nothing about the child? Or did
> > Jim say the child was by another father?
>
> Jim did not specify.
Jim did specify. He said "Her child, not his" in his original post.
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
M. Shirley Chong
>> Jim did not specify. He did say the child is high school age, so
>> probably at least 14 years old, the age when courts in Iowa give
>> most consideration to the wishes of the child in determining
>> custody. Courts in other states may vary.
>>
>> In a case where one parent is abusive to the other parent, is the
>> abusive parent really a fit parent to the children? I think the
>> answer would have to be no.
Charles Bishop wrote:
> Sure. But. We only have one side of the story (Ping Les) and taking a
> child out of the area of the other parent shouldn't be done without a
> custody order, IMO. Even if the story is as Jim represents it (and I have
> no doubt that it is) I think it should require a court judgment, to
> protect the cases where the facts aren't as clear.
How do you protect the cases where the victim really is in danger
from the abuser? The longer the victim remains in the area, the more
likely it is that the abuser will find them.
Real numbers might be of use in deciding; how many custodial parents
move away from the non-custodial parent without notice? How many
victims of domestic violence are injured or killed after attempting
to end the relationship?
Shirley
Shirley
M. Shirley Chong
> Never mind, I made my point. I just wonder why anyone comes to a
> group like this to get advice about resolving a potentially very
> dangerous situation ('risk of life' was mentioned) involving a lout, a
> woman, and a child. Additionally, if you read any follow-ups that are
> posted you will usually find that the people who were feared for
> resolved the situation by themselves for the most part (but the
> questions do make for interesting reading).
I think the value such discussions have is not so much for the
specific situation as for everyone who reads the discussion and
later runs into a similar situation themselves.
Plus, each situation has it's own timing. Some move fast enough that
it's unlikely that even a newsgroup as active as AFCA could provide
timely advice. I know of another situation where the victim couldn't
make up her mind to leave for five years (no kidding). Most are
somewhere in between.
And heck, it's more interesting than Shawn, Bonde and Binny, combined.
Shirley
M. Shirley Chong
> Actually, in the initial message, Jim did specify that the Lout was not
> the father of the Girl.
You are correct; I should have gone back to re-read the original
post for myself.
Shirley
Les Albert
Bishop) wrote:
The point that I was making by posting "There's always more to the
story" is that there's alway more to the story.
Les
Jim Beaver
"M. Shirley Chong" <eit...@netins.net.spam.not> wrote in message
news:2gn87r....@news.alt.net...
>I wrote:
>
>>> That's a typical ploy and she did the right thing. Those are just things
>>> (except for the cat) and not worth risking her life over. The cat is a
>>> living being and even though I love animals, I think she did the right
>>> thing to leave the cat, as well. She has a child and that child must
>>> come first.
>
> Charles Bishop wrote:
>
>> The Lout wanted to keep the cat but said nothing about the child? Or did
>> Jim say the child was by another father?
>
> Jim did not specify. He did say the child is high school age, so probably
> at least 14 years old, the age when courts in Iowa give most consideration
> to the wishes of the child in determining custody. Courts in other states
> may vary.
Actually, I did say that the child is not his. She's nearly 18.
They are on the road to the West Coast. All seems well. Even the Lout
seems to have calmed down.
Jim Beaver
Jim Beaver
"Les Albert" <lalb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ido1n49f97u3thkjs...@4ax.com...
I came to the group to get advice because I was frightened for my friend.
People who are in such a situation often are in the worst position to see
their ways out, and sometimes don't realize how dangerous the situation
might be. And while in this case, as indicated in the follow-ups, "the
people who were feared for" did indeed resolve the situation by themselves
for the most part, but took advantage a quite a few pieces of advice that I
passed on after receiving them here. So I don't regret coming to this group
to get advice. Much of it proved very helpful.
Jim Beaver
actually at nostradamus.net
Could he figure out their location through Usenet?
Heather
Over a thousand women are killed by violent partners every year in the
US. More than two-thirds of women who are murdered are killed by their
husbands or boy-friends (current or ex).
Women who have recently left abusive partners are most likely to be
murdered by the man they have left. From my experience dealing with
women in this situation, I can say that some abusive men will go to
extraordinary lengths to track down the woman who has dared to escape
them. When they find her there is a good chance they will kill her or
beat her so badly that she is lucky to survive. Most women who murder
their violent husbands do so as an act of desperation. They have
frequently made several prior attempts to get away from the
relationship.
About a third of women visiting hospital emergency rooms are seeking
treatment for injuries inflicted by abusive partners or ex-partners.
More than fifty percent of male abusers beat their children but it can
be difficult to prove this in court. Men who rape their partners often
sexually abuse their children too. Women who are too terrified to
leave frequently find the courage to do so when their children are
abused.
The average prison sentence of men who kill their women partners is 2
to 6 years. Women who kill their partners are, on average, sentenced
to 15 years. About a quarter as many women kill their partners as do
men although the rates used to be similar. I attribute that to the
greater availability of women's refuges and other services for
battered women.
Australia has a similar pattern of domestic violence but I think our
government is making a greater effort to deal with the problem.
Statistics:
http://www.padv.org/statistics.aspx
http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/Disorders/DomViolFacts.html
Articles of interest:
There is plenty of other information available if you care to google
for it.
--
Heather
Les Albert
I tend to agree with most of your take on such situations,
particularly your statement about timing. It's the immediately
desperate sounding ones that I wonder about.
Les
Jim Beaver
"actually at nostradamus.net" <n...@example.com> wrote in message
news:nbg3n45kapgg207m3...@4ax.com...
I'm not sure how. He doesn't know me. I've never used a name or a specific
location or city or even state that would identify anyone. He knows they're
going to the West Coast, but not where. I can't think of anything that has
passed here that would give him help. Can you? (I suppose if someone
pointed him to this thread, he'd learn a thing or two, but not much. And
who would point him to this thread without knowing it pertains to him
specifically?)
Jim Beaver
Charles Bishop
<eit...@netins.net.spam.not> wrote:
>I wrote:
>
>>> Jim did not specify. He did say the child is high school age, so
>>> probably at least 14 years old, the age when courts in Iowa give
>>> most consideration to the wishes of the child in determining
>>> custody. Courts in other states may vary.
>>>
>>> In a case where one parent is abusive to the other parent, is the
>>> abusive parent really a fit parent to the children? I think the
>>> answer would have to be no.
>
>Charles Bishop wrote:
>
>> Sure. But. We only have one side of the story (Ping Les) and taking a
>> child out of the area of the other parent shouldn't be done without a
>> custody order, IMO. Even if the story is as Jim represents it (and I have
>> no doubt that it is) I think it should require a court judgment, to
>> protect the cases where the facts aren't as clear.
>
>How do you protect the cases where the victim really is in danger
>from the abuser? The longer the victim remains in the area, the more
>likely it is that the abuser will find them.
It's a balancing act, sure, but most legal decision are. You can't allow a
parent to take a child away (here we're discussing a general case, not the
one that Jim Beaver presented) from the other parent absent a court
decision, can you? You protect the abused parent by using the police and
courts.
>
>Real numbers might be of use in deciding; how many custodial parents
>move away from the non-custodial parent without notice? How many
>victims of domestic violence are injured or killed after attempting
>to end the relationship?
Notice that we wern't discussing cases where there had been a court
decision, but one where two parents were in the same house. One parent
alleges abuse and wants to leave. At some point the courts or police have
to be involved before decisions about the child are made.
--
charles
actually at nostradamus.net
<jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:
I dunno. Just that if I were worried that a violent person were after
a friend of mine, I'd be even more coy than you've been.
Don K
> I dunno. Just that if I were worried that a violent person were after
> a friend of mine, I'd be even more coy than you've been.
What makes you think that the supplied information wouldn't be
deliberately misleading? Maybe she's going to the East coast or
somewhere in-between.
Don