pronunciation of centimeters
Garynamy
As an English-speaking American, I pronounce the first syllable of
centimeter the same way I pronounce $0.01.
Imagine my surprise when I went with my wife to our Lamaze classes, and
the nurses started talking about dilation in "SAHN-tuh-meters."
When my daughter was born, there was a more or less seamless conspiracy
among the nurses for this pronunciation, although the sensible doctor
wouldn't go along with the crowd.
I had many more important things on my mind at the time; however, now, I
do not. Any explanation, Teeming Millions? Are they just being
pretentious? Or is there some kind of precedent for this?
David Patterson
The SAHN-ah-mee-ter pronuciation in the US seems to be most prevalent among
nurses and a few other medical types. I've noticed this for years, and when
I saw your subject line I told myself that I was about to read a nurse story
<g>.
Maybe it started years ago with a director of nurses or a nursing instructor
with a European background who influenced hundreds of nurses, who
in turn spread it around the country.
Doctors seem to have a preference for secondary and tertiary pronuciations
over the "preferred" pronunciation in many common medical terms.
e.g. abdomen pronounced by many doctors as ab-DOH-men
e.g. respiratory pronounced by many doctors as re-SPIRE-a-toh-ree
. . . . maybe a subconscious effort to separate themselves from the unwashed
masses. <g>
David Patterson dav...@mindspring.com
SJF 37
<<Imagine my surprise when I went with my wife to our Lamaze classes, and
the nurses started talking about dilation in "SAHN-tuh-meters.">>
It's a frenchified pronunciation. I use it, too. Let's try to be
grateful that very few people say sen-TIM-eters.
Regards from Deborah
(a/k/a fin...@a1.tch.harvard.edu)
People are impossible. I should know; I'm one of them.
Nick Spalding
.sj...@aol.com (SJF 37) wrote:
>
> <<Imagine my surprise when I went with my wife to our Lamaze classes, and
> the nurses started talking about dilation in "SAHN-tuh-meters.">>
>
> It's a frenchified pronunciation. I use it, too. Let's try to be
> grateful that very few people say sen-TIM-eters.
>
centimetre and pronounce it something like sontimaytrer.
--
Nick Spalding
David Patterson
Garynamy wrote:
>Hate to respond to my own posting, but this whole discussion reminds of a
>little piece I heard on "All Things Considered" the other morning on NPR.
>Some BBC-head mentioned that the Pope was doing fine after his surgery,
>and there was no evidence of other
>intest-EYE-nal
>difficulty. Silly English people!
They probably had sent a tissue sample off to the la-BOR-a-tree.
Dave Wilton
Garynamy wrote:
>
> As an English-speaking American, I pronounce the first syllable of
> centimeter the same way I pronounce $0.01.
>
> the nurses started talking about dilation in "SAHN-tuh-meters."
The OED2 lists "sen-ti-meters" as the standard British pronunciation.
"Sahn-tuh-meters" is listed as an alternative (from the French).
There is distinct no US pronunciation given, which usually means
that the standard British is used in America.
Webster's 3rd International lists both, with "sen-ti-meter" coming
first and the other as an alternative.
--Dave Wilton
dwi...@sprynet.com
Garynamy
curtis cameron
David Patterson wrote:
> The SAHN-ah-mee-ter pronuciation in the US seems to be most prevalent among
> nurses and a few other medical types. I've noticed this for years, and when
> I saw your subject line I told myself that I was about to read a nurse story
> <g>.
Well, I recently completed a series of childbirth classes (they
generally
don't call 'em Lamaze anymore, because we have no intention of going
natural). I have never heard anyone pronounce it SAHN-... . My wife
was
due two days ago, so very soon I'll get much more exposure to nurses
saying this word, any I'll report anything interesting.
This might be related - I've actually heard a couple of people pronounce
"enchilada" as AHN-chi-la-da. Yuck.
Also, it really bugs me to hear someone say kilometer with the accent on
the second syllable instead of the first. Do they also say kil-O-gram?
No.
Everyone recognizes that metric prefixes are attached to the word,
without
changing the pronunciation of either, but don't seem willing to apply
this
rule to kilometer.
> Doctors seem to have a preference for secondary and tertiary pronuciations
> over the "preferred" pronunciation in many common medical terms.
Speaking of doctors and the word "tertiary" - my sister, who works in a
hospital, was writing a letter and asked me for another word for
tertiary.
It seemed obvious to me - I said "how about 'third' ?" This received a
blank stare. Turns out that this word means something different in a
hospital than in the rest of the world.
-curtis cameron
posting from WGS-84 32.975 north, 96.709 west
Daniel P Tasman
Garynamy (gary...@aol.com) wrote:
[snip]
: I had many more important things on my mind at the time; however, now, I
: do not. Any explanation, Teeming Millions? Are they just being
: pretentious? Or is there some kind of precedent for this?
What I'm wondering about is the proper pronunciation of the font "Gill
Sans." I always pronounced it as just plain "Gill Sans," but I've heard
several artsy graphic design types pronounce it like "gea-saah", the
"saah" spoken with a nasal French inflection. Either they're being
extremely pretentious, or else I'm a booris, uncultured lout who doesn't
know that "Gill" is obviously pronounced "gea."
--
Dan Tasman tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~tasman/
UB School of Architecture and Planning http://www.arch.buffalo.edu/
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I think that I shall never see a billboard lovely as a tree. |
| indeed, unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all." |
| Odgen Nash, Song of the Open Road |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Brian Erst
gary...@aol.com (Garynamy) wrote:
>As an English-speaking American, I pronounce the first syllable of
>centimeter the same way I pronounce $0.01.
>Imagine my surprise when I went with my wife to our Lamaze classes, and
>the nurses started talking about dilation in "SAHN-tuh-meters."
>When my daughter was born, there was a more or less seamless conspiracy
>among the nurses for this pronunciation, although the sensible doctor
>wouldn't go along with the crowd.
>I had many more important things on my mind at the time; however, now, I
>do not. Any explanation, Teeming Millions? Are they just being
>pretentious? Or is there some kind of precedent for this?
I went over to my favorite authority on pronunciation, Charles
Harrington Elster, and his book _Is There A Cow In Moscow_, and he had
the following to say:
"centimeter SEN-ti-MEE-tur, not SAHN-ti-MEE-tur
Some speakers say SAHN- (rhymes with don) instead of SEN- for the
cen-. This is an affectation, based on the French pronunciation of
centimetre, the source of the word. Centimeter has been in English
since 1800, making the Atlantic jump along with centigrade, centigram
and centiliter. Unless you're French, there is no excuse for saying
these established English words with French sounds. Authorities from
the Century [a dictionary] (1914) to Random House II (1987) all prefer
the English SEN-. "
Elster (who had a column in the New York Times, along with having
written and dictated those Verbal Advantage tapes) comes down really
hard on phony Frenchification of words that have been thoroughly
Anglicized for decades or centuries. Basically, he considers such
usage snobbish.
I HIGHLY recommend any of his books for anyone who like words and
really wants to know how to pronounce them. He is very thorough in
checking his sources (he sometimes lists a couple dozen on the more
thorny ones) and has real opinions while not coming across as
priggish.
- Brian "Did you know flaccid is pronounced FLAK-sid?" Erst
Phil Edwards
dav...@mindspring.com (David Patterson) writes:
> Garynamy wrote:
> >Some BBC-head mentioned that the Pope was doing fine after his surgery,
> >and there was no evidence of other
> >intest-EYE-nal
> >difficulty. Silly English people!
> They probably had sent a tissue sample off to the la-BOR-a-tree.
Ah, that takes me back. Twenty years ago or thereabouts, I was
watching an old horror film with my sister (I think it was _Son of
Frankenstein_, none of your rubbish).
"What's that building?"
"That's your father's labratry. He goes out there most nights."
"But what does he do in there?"
"Nobody knows, but he stays in there for hours at a time."
Collapse of TV-watching Brits.
(While I'm here... "SAHN-ti-mee-ter"? Never heard it here. Daft,
really, given that (as Nick's pointed out) what the French say is
"son-ti-MET-ruh").
Phil "maybe he took the paper with him" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards amr...@zetnet.co.uk
Lucy R F
Pretentious or what! Gill Sans was designed by Eric Gill, pronounced like
the breathing organ of a fish. Shakespeare used 'sans' as an English word
pronounced like 'sands' without the d ('sans eyes, sans teeth, sans
everything').
Trivia: Prefab Sprout (band) once mentioned Eve Marie Saint in a song and
erroneously pronounced her last name with a French accent.
Lucy
Harlan Messinger
luc...@aol.com (Lucy R F) wrote:
>Pretentious or what! Gill Sans was designed by Eric Gill, pronounced like
>the breathing organ of a fish. Shakespeare used 'sans' as an English word
>pronounced like 'sands' without the d ('sans eyes, sans teeth, sans
>everything').
It's not pretentious. In the field of typography, "sans serif" is the
normal term, which I assume dates back centuries, for typefaces that
lack serifs (such as Helvetica and Letter Gothic), as opposed to those
that have serifs (such as Courier and Times Roman). So Gill apparently
chose to make the "sans" part of the name to highlight the fact that
this is a sans-serif typeface. Perhaps he also crafted a serifed face
that he wanted to distinguish it from.
Phil Edwards
luc...@aol.com (Lucy R F) writes:
> Trivia: Prefab Sprout (band) once mentioned Eve Marie Saint in a song and
> erroneously pronounced her last name with a French accent.
> Lucy
Schmivia! It was Lloyd Cole and the Commotions. Not only that, but it
was pronounced wrong even as a French name - sounded more like "Marisson".
Should it be "Eev Muh-REE Saynt", then?
Phil
Pete Fraser
In article <32764767...@news.clark.net>, gu...@clark.net (Harlan
Messinger) wrote:
A couple of decades ago (on 4/1/xx) the Manchester Guardian published
a large pullout section (complete with paid advertisements) praising
the luxury resort of Sans Serif.
--
Pete Fraser
Frank Burgum
Daniel P Tasman wrote:
> What I'm wondering about is the proper pronunciation of the font "Gill
> Sans." I always pronounced it as just plain "Gill Sans," but I've heard
> several artsy graphic design types pronounce it like "gea-saah", the
> "saah" spoken with a nasal French inflection. Either they're being
> extremely pretentious, or else I'm a booris, uncultured lout who doesn't
> know that "Gill" is obviously pronounced "gea."
Eric Gill was an English artist living in the first half of this century.
I think his name, and the typeface he designed, is pronounced as written,
with a hard "G".
The word "sans" was originally french but has been part of the English
language for almost 1,000 years (since Norman French was assimilated in the
11th and 12th centuries). If it's not actually in a French language
context, its always pronounced as written (with the "n" and final "s"
audible).
Anything else is either (a) uneducated, (b) pretentious, or (c) both!
--
+--------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Frank Burgum, Navigation & Sensors Section | tel: +44 1703 316440 |
| Philips Semiconductors Systems Laboratory | fax: +44 1703 316304 |
| Southampton, U.K | SERI: burgum@ukpsshp1 |
| Email: Frank....@soton.sc.philips.com | |
+--------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
Kenichiro Tanaka
In article <5543cd$h...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Daniel P Tasman) wrote:
> Garynamy (gary...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> [snip]
> : I had many more important things on my mind at the time; however, now, I
> : do not. Any explanation, Teeming Millions? Are they just being
> : pretentious? Or is there some kind of precedent for this?
>
> What I'm wondering about is the proper pronunciation of the font "Gill
> Sans." I always pronounced it as just plain "Gill Sans," but I've heard
> several artsy graphic design types pronounce it like "gea-saah", the
> "saah" spoken with a nasal French inflection. Either they're being
> extremely pretentious, or else I'm a booris, uncultured lout who doesn't
> know that "Gill" is obviously pronounced "gea."
Hmm, I'm a graphic designer and I've _never_ heard Gill pronounced "gea."
In fact, I'm sure that's wrong--the person who designed the face, Eric
Gill, was English. We usually do say "san" (silent "s") though, because if
you did pronounce the "s," by extension, you'd have to pronounce sans
serif "sanz serif," which is really ugly.
Along the same lines, the "s" in "Univers" is also silent. It's pronounced
"YOU ni vair."
> --
> Dan Tasman tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~tasman/
> UB School of Architecture and Planning http://www.arch.buffalo.edu/
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | "I think that I shall never see a billboard lovely as a tree. |
> | indeed, unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all." |
> | Odgen Nash, Song of the Open Road |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Kenichiro Tanaka -- tan...@maya.com |
| http://www.maya.com/Local/tanaka/ |
Lucy R F
It was only the pronunciation that's pretentious.
curtis cameron
Kenichiro Tanaka wrote:
> We usually do say "san" (silent "s") though, because if
> you did pronounce the "s," by extension, you'd have to pronounce sans
> serif "sanz serif," which is really ugly.
"San serif" and "Sans serif" would be pretty much impossible to
differentiate at a conversational rate of speech. If you're
following the "sans" word with "serif" without a pause, I don't
think the difference could be detected at any rate.
Lucy R F
Do you pronounce Courier as Couriay?
Will Elliott
> luc...@aol.com (Lucy R F) wrote:
>
> >Pretentious or what! Gill Sans was designed by Eric Gill, pronounced like
> >the breathing organ of a fish. Shakespeare used 'sans' as an English word
> >pronounced like 'sands' without the d ('sans eyes, sans teeth, sans
> >everything').
>
> It's not pretentious. In the field of typography, "sans serif" is the
> normal term, which I assume dates back centuries, for typefaces that
> lack serifs (such as Helvetica and Letter Gothic), as opposed to those
> that have serifs (such as Courier and Times Roman). So Gill apparently
> chose to make the "sans" part of the name to highlight the fact that
> this is a sans-serif typeface. Perhaps he also crafted a serifed face
> that he wanted to distinguish it from.
What a minute -- I thought the original poster objected to certain
pronunciations of "sans" not the use of the word itself. "sans" vs "sahns"
was the issue if I remember correctly.
Jack Mlynek
tan...@maya.com (Kenichiro Tanaka) wrote:
>Along the same lines, the "s" in "Univers" is also silent. It's pronounced
>"YOU ni vair."
>
>| Kenichiro Tanaka -- tan...@maya.com |
>| http://www.maya.com/Local/tanaka/ |
If you're going to pronounce Univers as a French word, it would be
closer to "oo nee vair", the "u" would be closer to the "u" in
"urban".
However, if you speak English, I'd pronounce it "Universe", since
that's what it means.
Gea san, indeed!
Jack Mlynek
Avalanche Communications
jml...@interlog.com
Ed Hahn
"kt" == Kenichiro Tanaka <tan...@maya.com> writes:
kt> Along the same lines, the "s" in "Univers" is also silent. It's
kt> pronounced "YOU ni vair."
Clearly, we are dealing with a mutant - who uses Univers anyways?
Use Helvetica - you will be assimilated.
<smiley for the humor impaired>
ed
Ralph Hancock
Jack Mlynek <jml...@interlog.com> writes:
> tan...@maya.com (Kenichiro Tanaka) wrote:
>
> >Along the same lines, the "s" in "Univers" is also silent. It's pronounced
> >"YOU ni vair."
> >
> >| Kenichiro Tanaka -- tan...@maya.com |
> >| http://www.maya.com/Local/tanaka/ |
>
> If you're going to pronounce Univers as a French word, it would be
> closer to "oo nee vair", the "u" would be closer to the "u" in
> "urban".
No, it wouldn't. That's how you'd pronounce the u in 'un hiver', 'a
winter'. In French, the first syllable 'univers' is pronounced more or
less as halfway between 'oo' and 'ee' - or, to put it differently,
like u umlaut in German
> However, if you speak English, I'd pronounce it "Universe", since
> that's what it means.
Dead right. I've never heard a British printer pronounce it in any
other way.
These pronunciations are all really shibboleths used to prove that
you are a professional, and there is no consistency to them. 'Sans' is
pronounced like 'sands' minus the d, not as in French - but 'Didot'
*is* pronounced as in French, 'DEE-doh'. 'Arrighi' is pronounced as
in Italian, 'ah-REE-gee', but much less effort is made with 'Bodoni',
which rhymes with 'baloney'. And until a few years ago, 'font' was
spelt 'fount' but pronounced 'font'. Incidentally, the G in 'Gill'
is hard, as in 'gimlet'.
If you aren't sure how to pronounce something, the best way to find
out is to hang around with a professional typographer and trick him/
her into saying it first:
'You know, that font with no serifs on top of capital Y, I keep
forgetting the name ...'
'Oh yeah, Pal-uh-TEE-no.'
Ralph Hancock <rhan...@dircon.co.uk>
Richard M. Alderson III
In article <3278084f....@news.interlog.com> jml...@interlog.com
(Jack Mlynek) writes:
>If you're going to pronounce Univers as a French word, it would be closer to
>"oo nee vair", the "u" would be closer to the "u" in "urban".
[Choke, sputter]
Not at all! The letter <u> in French, when used alone, represents the same
sound as the German u-umlaut. In English, roughly the exclamation often
written "EEeeewwww".
--
Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
what not.
--J. R. R. Tolkien,
alde...@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_
Daniel P Tasman
Jeffrey Nelson / STILL AGIN' (jlne...@mole.uvm.edu) wrote:
: Imagine that! There are, I also heard, people that even pronounce it
: en-chih-lah-dah
: instead of
: en-chee-lah-dah
: like it's supposed to be pronounced
And thus, we hit upon another one of my peeves - the politically correct
"overpronunciation" of Spanish-rooted words by US English speakers. We
usually don't go out of our way to say French-based words in a nasal
French accent, or German words in a gutteral German accent, but we sure as
hell try to say anything that sounds remotely Spanish as if we were
natives of Cuidad Chihuahua.
Jack Mlynek
alde...@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote:
>In article <3278084f....@news.interlog.com> jml...@interlog.com
>(Jack Mlynek) writes:
>
>>If you're going to pronounce Univers as a French word, it would be closer to
>>"oo nee vair", the "u" would be closer to the "u" in "urban".
>
>[Choke, sputter]
>
>Not at all! The letter <u> in French, when used alone, represents the same
>sound as the German u-umlaut. In English, roughly the exclamation often
>written "EEeeewwww".
Before I posted, I checked with an English/French Dictionary, which
uses the phonetic symbol <y> for the first letter of "univers". I'm no
linguist, but I thought I was a lot closer than the previous
suggestion. One thing for sure is that it isn't pronounced "YOU" ;-=)
Cliff Heller
>Imagine my surprise when I went with my wife to our Lamaze classes, and
>the nurses started talking about dilation in "SAHN-tuh-meters."
Lamaze? Sounds french doesn't it?
It would seem that they are engaged in a Fracophilic conspiracy to enforce
the French pronounciation. FFr 0.01 is a 'centime' pronounced as above.
--
/ \ Left Reverend Nigh Invulnerable fn...@panix.com
/<0>\ Church of the Subverted Paradigm
/ \ God Plays Dice!
/_______\ --> FIVE TONS OF FLAX <-- Death To All Fanatics!
Marnen Laibow-Koser
In article <tanaka-3010...@tanaka.maya.com>, tan...@maya.com
(Kenichiro Tanaka) wrote:
[...]
: Along the same lines, the "s" in "Univers" is also silent. It's pronounced
: "YOU ni vair."
I'm not sure. The font was designed by Adrian Frütiger, who was Swiss, so
the name could just as easily be ['u nI vers], pronounced German-style.
: | Kenichiro Tanaka -- tan...@maya.com |
: | http://www.maya.com/Local/tanaka/ |
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser "There is no such thing as government money,
Peekskill, NY just taxpayer money."
mar...@bigfoot.com --William Weld
r.g.sowers
Ralph Hancock wrote:
>
> If you aren't sure how to pronounce something, the best way to find
> out is to hang around with a professional typographer and trick him/
> her into saying it first:
> >
I don't know any professional typographers, but if you are one, or know
some, do you think you could ask them about the correct pronunciation of
some other fonts?
DeVinne
Janson
Melior
Plantin
Friz Quadrata
Avant Garde
This isn't just idle curiosity. I work in a studio where we record books
on tape for the blind and these names all came up in an article on
typefaces, and we have to figure out how to say them.
We're recording in the U.S., but the book we're working on is the Oxford
Companion to the English Language, so either British or American
pronunciations would be okay.
Thanks for any help you can give us.
RHonda Sowers
Kenichiro Tanaka
In article <EHAHN.96O...@mallard.mitre.org>,
eh...@mallard.mitre.org (Ed Hahn) wrote:
D'oh! A few months ago, there was an article in Adobe Magazine where the
writer went on this mouth-frothing rant about Helvetica. It was kind of
funny, if you find humor in typography jokes.
Ralph Hancock
"r.g.sowers" <rgso...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>... the correct pronunciation of
> some other fonts?
>
> DeVinne
> Janson
> Melior
> Plantin
> Friz Quadrata
> Avant Garde
I'd say:
Duh-VIN
YAN-son
MEL-i-oar
PLAN-tin (short A, as in the word 'plan')
Fritz Quad-RAY-tuh (you spelt it wrong, it's Fritz)
AH-von Gahrrd (more or less as in French, but don't make a meal of it)
I'm British and my grirfriend's from Brooklyn, and we agreed on these.
Hope it helps. Bet you get a lot of other replies giving completely
different pronunciations, though.
Ralph Hancock <rhan...@dircon.co.uk>
Ralph Hancock
type...@slip.net (David Lemon) writes:
> In article <55g3sv$i...@tdc.dircon.co.uk>, rhan...@tdc.dircon.co.uk (Ralph
> Hancock) wrote:
> > I'd say:
> [various pronunciations elided]
> > Fritz Quad-RAY-tuh (you spelt it wrong, it's Fritz)
>
> has no t in the first name, nor any long vowels in its pronunciation.
Apologies about spelling of Friz. I now find that I've been spelling it
wrong for three years, having originally copied it out wrong from a list.
It's not a face that I have or use.
But I don't see how you could pronounce Quadrata without a long vowel
somewhere, whether it's Quad-RAY-tuh or Quad-RAH-tuh. I think the
distinction is an age thing: for example I pronounce pro rata as
pro RAY-tuh, but am aware that this is a bit old fashioned and that
younger people say pro RAH-tuh. I am 48.
On the whole, Latin words that have become native in English tend to use
the old pronunciation of long a: for example data (DAY-tuh), Mavis
(MAY-viss). This presumably reflects the *time* they came into the
language. In British schools the change in Latin pronunciation from
an 'English' style to a (very roughly) 'Italian' one took place
around 1925-30, according to my father who was learning Latin at the
time.
I'd be quite happy with Quad-RAH-tuh, anyway - but not with
Quad-RATT-uh, which sounds terrible.
Ralph Hancock <rhan...@dircon.co.uk>
Jim Balter
In article <5543cd$h...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
Daniel P Tasman <tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>Garynamy (gary...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>: I had many more important things on my mind at the time; however, now, I
>: do not. Any explanation, Teeming Millions? Are they just being
>: pretentious? Or is there some kind of precedent for this?
>
>What I'm wondering about is the proper pronunciation of the font "Gill
>Sans." I always pronounced it as just plain "Gill Sans," but I've heard
>several artsy graphic design types pronounce it like "gea-saah", the
>"saah" spoken with a nasal French inflection. Either they're being
>extremely pretentious, or else I'm a booris, uncultured lout who doesn't
>know that "Gill" is obviously pronounced "gea."
I suppose you pronounce Maurice Chevalier as "Morris Chevaleer". Yes, lack of
culture is certainly evident. Reminds me of the fellow I spoke to recently
about Sarah Bernhardt and he asked "You mean the comedian?"
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <55gdvv$r...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>,
Greg Diamond <gdia...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>In article <55c0ro$s...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>>"overpronunciation" of Spanish-rooted words by US English speakers. We
>>usually don't go out of our way to say French-based words in a nasal
>>French accent, or German words in a gutteral German accent, but we sure as
>>hell try to say anything that sounds remotely Spanish as if we were
>>natives of Cuidad Chihuahua.
>
>the French do, or I can pronounce it the way you'd sound it out in
>English, and the same with "ennui" and "recherche" and "rendesvous". One
>way sounds better to educated ears than othes, usually. No one usually
>stipulated that we pronounce some words of foreign origin correctly; the
>pronunciations arise as a matter of custom, which begin as a matter of
>usage. Now if I want to pronounce "guacamole" as "hwockamohleh" rather
>than as "gwack-a-moll" -- as you, in full anti-PC rant, would presumably
>prefer -- why should it chap your butt? If I, in my PC glory, choose to
>pronounce something the way natives do (based on my knowledge of and
>ability to produce this pronunciation), why should it threaten you? It
>seems to me that your position is the narrowly prescriptive one (and thus
>would fit any pejorative definition of "PC", as opposed to a positive
>definition as simple support of inclusive language, etc.), not mine.
>I'll say "potato," and you can rhyme it with "Pocano" if doing so makes
>you feel any more free from intellectual tyrrany. It's your larynx.
I pronounce "politically correct" as NAHT-AN-AS-HOL.
--
<J Q B>
David S. Goslin
Rich Clancey wrote:
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
> | rich clancey PROWNESS IS ENDOWMENT |
> | r...@world.std.com musical prowness |
> | rc...@cs.umb.edu "The Truth Will Be In The Pudding" - sph |
Ok, now how do we pronounce 'prowness'. What language is it and what
does it mean? It must be a significant force in your life since you put
it in your sig.
DSG
Jim Balter
In article <55c0ro$s...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
Daniel P Tasman <tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>
>: Imagine that! There are, I also heard, people that even pronounce it
>: en-chih-lah-dah
>: instead of
>: en-chee-lah-dah
>: like it's supposed to be pronounced
>
>"overpronunciation" of Spanish-rooted words by US English speakers. We
>usually don't go out of our way to say French-based words in a nasal
>French accent, or German words in a gutteral German accent, but we sure as
>hell try to say anything that sounds remotely Spanish as if we were
>natives of Cuidad Chihuahua.
It would be a bit perverse for me, living here in Santa Barbara with a 50%
latino population, to pronounce enchilada more like you in Buffalo than like
the people next door.
So how does a Buffaloan pronounce "La Jolla", "San Joaquin",
"sturm und drang", "Marine Corps", ...?
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.961031...@mole.uvm.edu>,
Jeffrey Nelson / STILL AGIN' <jlne...@mole.uvm.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, curtis cameron wrote:
>> Also, it really bugs me to hear someone say kilometer with the accent on
>> the second syllable instead of the first. Do they also say kil-O-gram?
>> No.
>
>Sorry I skipped this gem first time around.
>
>> Everyone recognizes that metric prefixes are attached to the word,
>> without
>> changing the pronunciation of either, but don't seem willing to apply
>> this
>> rule to kilometer.
>
>Nope, dude. Most pronunciation guides, especially those of Greek- and
>Latin-derived words rely on counting from the end of the word. For
>example,
>
>kill-AUM-it-er
>
>and
>
>KILL-uh-gram
>
>are consistent because each stresses the second from the last syllabble.
>Your offered rule or thinking that
>
>KILL-o-met-er
>
>sounds proper is just plain rong. R-o-n-g. rong.
So: milLImeter, cenTImeter?
The latin that applies is this: AD HOC
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <5543l5$f...@nntp.interaccess.com>,
Brian Erst <er...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>Elster (who had a column in the New York Times, along with having
>written and dictated those Verbal Advantage tapes) comes down really
>hard on phony Frenchification of words that have been thoroughly
>Anglicized for decades or centuries. Basically, he considers such
>usage snobbish.
Coming down really hard on any pronunciation is really snobbish.
People who write columns on language aren't linguists. Linguists
*describe* language usage; they know better than to *prescribe* it.
--
<J Q B>
Daniel P Tasman
Jim Balter (j...@netcom.com) wrote:
: So how does a Buffaloan pronounce "La Jolla", "San Joaquin",
: "sturm und drang", "Marine Corps", ...?
Like "la-hoy-ya," "san-wa-keen," "sturm-oond-drang" and "muh-reen-kor."
How does someone from Southern California pronounce "Tonawanda,"
"Cheektowaga," "Lackawanna," "Scajaquada" and "Chautaqua" ...?
What I'm objecting to is that many people seem to put an extra emphasis on
_overpronouncing_ Spanish sounding words, saying them with an exaggerated
accent. Saturday Night Live did a skit on this about five years ago - a
new Hispanic employee was at a meeting, and all his co-workers tried to
overpronounce anything that sounded remotely Spanish to appease him.
"Say, do you know how the Denver BROHN-KOS did last night?"
"I think they beat the LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES Rams"
"Is anyone hungry - I've got some NAH-CHOS here ..."
Gary Munch
In article <55j65o$b...@tdc.dircon.co.uk>, rhan...@tdc.dircon.co.uk (Ralph
Hancock) wrote:
>type...@slip.net (David Lemon) writes:
>> In article <55g3sv$i...@tdc.dircon.co.uk>, rhan...@tdc.dircon.co.uk (Ralph
>> Hancock) wrote:
>> > I'd say:
>> [various pronunciations elided]
>> > Fritz Quad-RAY-tuh
(snip)
>I'd be quite happy with Quad-RAH-tuh, anyway - but not with
>Quad-RATT-uh, which sounds terrible.
Betcha it's more like /frits kwa drA da/ in everyday speech.
But now for a real test: Fred Goudy.
I seem to say g' di but could be convinced of /gu: di/
--
Gary Munch
GMaju...@aol.com
gmu...@pipeline.com
http://members.aol.com/GMajuscule/
Phil Edwards
j...@netcom.com (Jim Balter) writes:
> Daniel P Tasman <tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
> >What I'm wondering about is the proper pronunciation of the font "Gill
> >Sans." I always pronounced it as just plain "Gill Sans," but I've heard
> >several artsy graphic design types pronounce it like "gea-saah", the
> >"saah" spoken with a nasal French inflection. Either they're being
> >extremely pretentious, or else I'm a booris, uncultured lout who doesn't
> >know that "Gill" is obviously pronounced "gea."
> I suppose you pronounce Maurice Chevalier as "Morris Chevaleer".
Yes, lack of
> culture is certainly evident. Reminds me of the fellow I spoke to recently
> about Sarah Bernhardt and he asked "You mean the comedian?"
Good bawl, JB, but I think you're flat-out wrong here. "Sans" is
short for "sans serif", which - despite its French origin - is
pronounced among Anglophone font-users as if it were the _Guardian_'s
mythical tropical island San Seriffe. And "Gill" is the surname of
the designer of the font, the fairly well-known sculptor and
erotomane Eric Gill. Pronounced Gill, with a hard G. Extreme
pretension has it, I think.
Phil
Lucy R F
Goudy: Gowdy
Jim Balter
In article <55jsns$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>_overpronouncing_ Spanish sounding words, saying them with an exaggerated
>accent. Saturday Night Live did a skit on this about five years ago - a
>new Hispanic employee was at a meeting, and all his co-workers tried to
>overpronounce anything that sounded remotely Spanish to appease him.
>
>"Say, do you know how the Denver BROHN-KOS did last night?"
>"I think they beat the LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES Rams"
>"Is anyone hungry - I've got some NAH-CHOS here ..."
I know people who take the move "Resurrection" as evidence of miracles.
Amazingly enough, Saturday Night Live is not real life.
--
<J Q B>
sj...@aol.com
<<I'll say "potato," and you can rhyme it with "Pocano" if doing so makes
you feel any more free from intellectual tyrrany. It's your larynx.>>
Greg, as always, your curmudgeonliness delights my soul. I hope that you
don't mind if I adopt your remarks for use in my tagline.
Regards from Deborah
(a/k/a fin...@a1.tch.harvard.edu)
"I'll say 'potato,' and you can rhyme it
with 'Pocano' if doing so makes you feel
any more free from intellectual tyrrany.
It's your larynx. (Greg Diamond, 11/2/96)
Daniel P Tasman
Jim Balter (j...@netcom.com) wrote:
: I know people who take the move "Resurrection" as evidence of miracles.
: Amazingly enough, Saturday Night Live is not real life.
Next time you watch the news, listen to how the word "Nicaragua' is
pronounced. Every geography professor I knew pronounced the country
"nih-ker-ahg-wuh." On the 6:30 network news, and NPR's "All Things
Considered," it's pronounced "NEEK-KAL-LAHG-GUAH." Nuff said.
obl...@nonsense.net
On Mon, 04 Nov 1996 01:47:46 -0500, gmu...@pipeline.com (Gary Munch)
wrote:
|But now for a real test: Fred Goudy.
|I seem to say g' di but could be convinced of /gu: di/
Try GOW-dee.
__
E-mail to: bob...@taconic.net
(The header may be altered
to foil autospam software.)
obl...@nonsense.net
On Sun, 3 Nov 1996 11:27:56 -0500, lau...@cam.org (SLaM) wrote:
|> The word "sans" was originally french but has been part of the English
|>
|> Anything else is either (a) uneducated, (b) pretentious, or (c) both!
|>
|Or (d) lives in Canada, where I have never heard the "ns" pronounced.
I've lived in Canada--indeed in La Belle Province--and never once
heard the "ns" dropped by anglophonic Canadians. But that was 30
years ago, and while I lived there I wasn't dealing with type on any
regular basis. Perhaps it was different in the trade; and perhaps the
habit is different in today's very different cultural climate.
The word was used by Shakespeare, after all, and has a long history of
being pronounced ą l'anglais. If anglophones have adopted the French
pronunciation in Canada, it is a recent departure.
obl...@nonsense.net
On 2 Nov 1996 18:28:47 -0000, rhan...@tdc.dircon.co.uk (Ralph
Hancock) wrote:
|> DeVinne
|
|Duh-VIN
|
|I'm British and my grirfriend's from Brooklyn, and we agreed on these.
|Hope it helps. Bet you get a lot of other replies giving completely
|different pronunciations, though.
DeVinne was a New Yorker. I've always heard it pronounced
duh-VIN-nie.
On the other hand, Aldo Novarese was an Italian (hence,
no-vah-RAY-zuh), but all the U.S. typographers, designers, and
printers I've ever heard utter the eponymous type name have called it
no-vah-REES.
Jim Balter
In article <55oclm$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>
>: I know people who take the move "Resurrection" as evidence of miracles.
>: Amazingly enough, Saturday Night Live is not real life.
>
>Next time you watch the news, listen to how the word "Nicaragua' is
>pronounced. Every geography professor I knew pronounced the country
>"nih-ker-ahg-wuh." On the 6:30 network news, and NPR's "All Things
>Considered," it's pronounced "NEEK-KAL-LAHG-GUAH." Nuff said.
No it isn't. Enough said.
--
<J Q B>
Tom
In article <55kt29$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Lucy R F, aka
luc...@aol.com , presumably said...
> Goudy: Gowdy
>
Lubalin: lou BAHL in
--
PGP key available from better keyservers everywhere.
"In reality, the animal rights movement has
elevated ignorance about the natural world
almost to the level of a philosophical principle."
-- Richard Coniff, conservationist,
Audubon Magazine (92(6):120-133;1990)
Mothermay
In article <327B01...@worldnet.att.net>, "r.g.sowers"
<rgso...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Ralph Hancock wrote:
> >
> > If you aren't sure how to pronounce something, the best way to find
> > out is to hang around with a professional typographer and trick him/
> > her into saying it first:
> > >
Don't ask a typographer, ask a typesetter!!!! If you want them to use the
correct typeface, you'd better speak "their" language. Generally, say the
name as it is spelled.
Craig Dickinson
West Side Type
Buffalo, NYU
--
"Improvement makes strait roads; but the crooked roads without Improvement are the roads of genius." --Blake
Mothermay
Mothermay
> Ralph Hancock wrote:
> >
> > If you aren't sure how to pronounce something, the best way to find
> > out is to hang around with a professional typographer and trick him/
> > her into saying it first:
> > >
Don't ask a typographer, ask a typesetter!!!! If you want them to use the
correct typeface, you'd better speak "their" language. Generally, say the
name as it is spelled.
Craig Dickinson
West Side Type
Buffalo, NY
--
QUICK JASON STEWART
: pronounced. Every geography professor I knew pronounced the country
: "nih-ker-ahg-wuh." On the 6:30 network news, and NPR's "All Things
: Considered," it's pronounced "NEEK-KAL-LAHG-GUAH." Nuff said.
Actually, they pronounce it "nee-kar-aag'-wah," with a small bit
of trill on the 'ar' syllable. Just like it is supposed to be
pronounced. It is simply laziness that causes Anglos to pronounce it
the way your aforementioned geography teacher did. Not that I'm
criticizing - I pronounce it the lazy way, too. It's kind of like
Colombia; I constantly hear it referred to as "cull-um-bee-ah," making
it sound like a Space Shuttle.
Of course, the other day I heard someone on television news pronounce the
town of Worcester, Massachusetts as "wurr-ches-ter." I then decided that
*anyone* can get a job in local TV news these days.
Shack Toms
jqu...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (QUICK JASON STEWART) wrote:
>Actually, they pronounce it "nee-kar-aag'-wah," with a small bit
>of trill on the 'ar' syllable. Just like it is supposed to be
>pronounced. It is simply laziness that causes Anglos to pronounce it
>the way your aforementioned geography teacher did. Not that I'm
>criticizing - I pronounce it the lazy way, too.
Lazy? I think it is just English. Something like the way
Deutschland is pronunced "Germany" in English. I don't think we
want to start demanding that everyone speak the language with the
same accent.
NPR also seems to have a fondness for British accents and I often
hear (or used to when I still listened to NPR)
"nee-ka-raag'-you-ah".
I rarely hear people from other countries change their accent
completely in order to pronounce American names. It happens
sometimes, but it is rare. Is this attempt to use native
pronunciations for proper nouns mostly an American affectation?
And I have never heard NPR use a regional US accent when using a
US American proper name. "Today former president Jimmy Cawdeh
flew from his home in Jawe-juh to Neekalagwa..."
>It's kind of like
>Colombia; I constantly hear it referred to as "cull-um-bee-ah," making
>it sound like a Space Shuttle.
Or like the United States of America (aka Columbia).
Shack
Jim Balter
In article <55s6fp$a...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu>,
QUICK JASON STEWART <jqu...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> wrote:
>Daniel P Tasman (tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu) wrote:
>: Jim Balter (j...@netcom.com) wrote:
>:
>: Next time you watch the news, listen to how the word "Nicaragua' is
>: pronounced. Every geography professor I knew pronounced the country
>: "nih-ker-ahg-wuh." On the 6:30 network news, and NPR's "All Things
>: Considered," it's pronounced "NEEK-KAL-LAHG-GUAH." Nuff said.
>:
I have yet to hear anyone on the network news pronounce it this way (in fact,
despite the recent election there, the network news seems uninterested) and
the only people I have heard say it that way in on NPR are latino, and I
suspect they do so only when they forget where they are.
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.961106...@mole.uvm.edu>,
>> Coming down really hard on any pronunciation is really snobbish.
>
Ummm...yup...
>> People who write columns on language aren't linguists. Linguists
>> *describe* language usage; they know better than to *prescribe* it.
>
>Yabbut since when do people listen to linguists before they pronounce
>certain words?
you <...mile...> point
>The columnist, by virtue of his complaints, might
>agree with me that the intentional mispronunciation of certain words is
>not only a display of snobbery, but contribute to a larger picture of
>elitism.
Attribution of intent is the critic's snobbery.
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <55um6n$h...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Matthew D Eayre <mea...@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <jqbE0E...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <55jsns$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>>>_overpronouncing_ Spanish sounding words, saying them with an exaggerated
>>>accent. Saturday Night Live did a skit on this about five years ago - a
>>>new Hispanic employee was at a meeting, and all his co-workers tried to
>>>overpronounce anything that sounded remotely Spanish to appease him.
>>>
>>>"Say, do you know how the Denver BROHN-KOS did last night?"
>>>"I think they beat the LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES Rams"
>>>"Is anyone hungry - I've got some NAH-CHOS here ..."
>>
>>Amazingly enough, Saturday Night Live is not real life.
>>
Can you point out where I said he did? I think I referred to taking it as
evidence, which you immediately proceed to do.
>Anyway, why isn't that a valid example. If a comedy group, or even a
>pathetic excuse for one like SNL, performs a skit where they mimic and
>exaggerate a behavior, isn't that a good indication that that behavior
>exists in the culture, at least to some extent?
Since the complaint is about exaggerated behavior, taking a skit that
exaggerates behavior as evidence of said exaggerated behavior is rather lame.
The fact is that no one other than Cheech Marin (who probably is the real
source of that skit) says LOHS-AHN-GUH-LEES (let alone LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES), and
NAW-CHOZ sure sounds right to me (how else would you pronounce it, natch-ohs?)
so this skit doesn't seem to be a very good indication of anything, other than
that lots of skits play to people's stereotypes. Racist stereotypes are
particularly appealing; some political figure got into a lot of trouble
mimicing Judge Ito with a fake Japanese accent and buck teeth; was his act
evidence that Ito has these traits? I don't think so.
>I also happen to agree with Dan's sentiment. I find it strange that
>people who pronounce most of their words with a typical American accent
>would speak words of Spanish origin with a Mexican or Spanish accent. It
>is possible to pronounce those word "correctly" and not use the accent.
And your evidence for this behavior is a SNL skit.
So, how do you pronounce Des Moines? And Des Plaines?
Surely it should be possible to pronounce both of these "correctly".
As I mentioned before, I live in Santa Barbara, where 50% of the population is
latino. There are good sociological reasons why non-latinos here tend to
speak like their latino neighbors. Place names particularly, since people
often don't know how to pronounce them and go by what they think is
authoritative. Also people's names, like Violeta Chamorro. Or Jesus; if your
pronounce Jesus Lopez the way you pronounce Jesus Christ, people will look at
you really funny (and probably figure you're from Buffalo). When you spend
all day talking to Jesus and Juan and Jose and Ms. Gutierrez and Mr. Gallegos
(as in GUY-YAY-GOHSS) and driving down Carrillo or Canon Perdido or Arrelaga
or Cielito Sts., the "correct" pronunciation may not seem so obvious.
But the demographic mix might be a bit different in Buffalo or Michigan, which
might make your experience different. But why consider such issues when you
can pin the whole thing on a political conspiracy against whiny white males.
--
<J Q B>
Phil Edwards
sh...@esinet.net (Shack Toms) writes:
> NPR also seems to have a fondness for British accents and I often
> hear (or used to when I still listened to NPR)
> "nee-ka-raag'-you-ah".
British? Standard pronunciation over here, I'm afraid to say, is
"nih-kuh-rag'-yu-ah" - even more "phonetic" than your version.
> I rarely hear people from other countries change their accent
> completely in order to pronounce American names. It happens
> sometimes, but it is rare. Is this attempt to use native
> pronunciations for proper nouns mostly an American affectation?
I think you're barking up the wrong tree here, though. I just think
that the basic rule, in whatever country, is that people who deal
regularly with a particular "foreign" country will tend to use
"foreign" pronunciations, while everyone else carries on using the
"native" version.
Phil
Matthew D Eayre
In article <jqbE0E...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <55jsns$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>Daniel P Tasman <tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>>What I'm objecting to is that many people seem to put an extra emphasis on
>>_overpronouncing_ Spanish sounding words, saying them with an exaggerated
>>accent. Saturday Night Live did a skit on this about five years ago - a
>>new Hispanic employee was at a meeting, and all his co-workers tried to
>>overpronounce anything that sounded remotely Spanish to appease him.
>>
>>"Say, do you know how the Denver BROHN-KOS did last night?"
>>"I think they beat the LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES Rams"
>>"Is anyone hungry - I've got some NAH-CHOS here ..."
>
>I know people who take the move "Resurrection" as evidence of miracles.
>Amazingly enough, Saturday Night Live is not real life.
>
I'm curious, could you point out where he claimed that SNL is real life?
pathetic excuse for one like SNL, performs a skit where they mimic and
exaggerate a behavior, isn't that a good indication that that behavior
exists in the culture, at least to some extent?
I also happen to agree with Dan's sentiment. I find it strange that
people who pronounce most of their words with a typical American accent
would speak words of Spanish origin with a Mexican or Spanish accent. It
is possible to pronounce those word "correctly" and not use the accent.
--
Matthew D Eayre I'm not not really this stupid;
mea...@umich.edu I just pretend to be on the net.
Formerly mea...@iastate.edu
Greg Diamond
In article <jqbE0G...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <55oclm$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>>pronounced. Every geography professor I knew pronounced the country
>>"nih-ker-ahg-wuh." On the 6:30 network news, and NPR's "All Things
>>Considered," it's pronounced "NEEK-KAL-LAHG-GUAH." Nuff said.
Well, to clarify, I recall Peter Jennings pronouncing what we USAns call
"Knicker-og-wah" with a more authentic accent, which I'd render as
"Neeh-cadh-ah-gwah" (where "dh" is about halfway between a "d" and and
"r", something, like the trilled "r", that I've never quite been able to
master), for a short time during the early to mid 8os or so. He got
absolutely hammered for it by people with Dan's sensibilities, and my
impression is that he's stopped or at least modified his behavior by
now. (Disclaimer: I don't watch the network news.) Sort of tells you what
is, and what isn't, considered "correct" after all, doesn't it?
--
<><><> A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance
Greg<> -- H. D. Thoreau
<>/\<>
<>\/<> Thank the correlation of forces for Sen. Paul Wellstone!
Greg Diamond
In article <55um6n$h...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Matthew D Eayre <mea...@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>Anyway, why isn't that a valid example. If a comedy group, or even a
>pathetic excuse for one like SNL, performs a skit where they mimic and
>exaggerate a behavior, isn't that a good indication that that behavior
>exists in the culture, at least to some extent?
Well, if we're talking about SNL, the answer is no. At least, I don't
recall people, even a little bit, responding to everything by opera
singing, like that execrable what's-his-name used to do.
>I also happen to agree with Dan's sentiment. I find it strange that
>people who pronounce most of their words with a typical American accent
>would speak words of Spanish origin with a Mexican or Spanish accent. It
>is possible to pronounce those word "correctly" and not use the accent.
The example someone raised of a Latino reporter is a good one. I'm
Jewish, and if my boss at a network told me that I should pronounce the
Decemberish holiday as "Ha-noo-kah" instead of "Kha-noo-kah" ("kh" sound
as in "Bach" or "loch"), I'd feel compelled to bite them on the nose.
Greg Diamond
In article <328708af....@news.esinet.net>,
Shack Toms <sh...@esinet.net> wrote:
>And I have never heard NPR use a regional US accent when using a
>US American proper name. "Today former president Jimmy Cawdeh
>flew from his home in Jawe-juh to Neekalagwa..."
Oh yeah? I recall dissertations about both the correct pronunciation of
Nawlens, LA and Luhvul, KY. If they're talking about Cairo IL they call
it "Kay-row" and not "Kye-row" -- what's that if not a regional
variation? And I've heard lots of regional accents on NPR pass without
notice (except for some reasons, those of some minorities which people
seem to feel justified in complaining about.) If we are more relaxed
about the use of US place names, it's because we recognize that we have a
multiplicity of accents in our nation and we have reached a modus
vivendi: you say Joe-juh, I'll say Georgia. The argument I've been
making is that we should have a similar modus vivendi regarding foreign
names and words: I'll let you pronounce them the USA way if you let me
pronounce them the "native" way" -- without criticism. Right now you can
do the former without being attacked, but not the latter, and that is no
modus to go on vivendi.
Jim Balter
In article <562l7t$o...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>,
Greg Diamond <gdia...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>In article <jqbE0G...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <55oclm$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>>Daniel P Tasman <tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>>>Next time you watch the news, listen to how the word "Nicaragua' is
>>>pronounced. Every geography professor I knew pronounced the country
>>>"nih-ker-ahg-wuh." On the 6:30 network news, and NPR's "All Things
>>>Considered," it's pronounced "NEEK-KAL-LAHG-GUAH." Nuff said.
>>No it isn't. Enough said.
>
>Well, to clarify, I recall Peter Jennings pronouncing what we USAns call
>"Knicker-og-wah" with a more authentic accent, which I'd render as
>"Neeh-cadh-ah-gwah" (where "dh" is about halfway between a "d" and and
>"r", something, like the trilled "r", that I've never quite been able to
>master), for a short time during the early to mid 8os or so.
Perhaps he was taking Spanish lessons at the time. Perhaps his wife is a
Latina and she says it that way; who knows? In any case, Peter Jennings is
not synonymous with "the network news".
>He got
>absolutely hammered for it by people with Dan's sensibilities, and my
>impression is that he's stopped or at least modified his behavior by
>now. (Disclaimer: I don't watch the network news.) Sort of tells you what
>is, and what isn't, considered "correct" after all, doesn't it?
It is a bit odd when people who insist that anyone who strays from their
standards is "politically correct". Does anyone remember Irving Reed, who
insisted that any commentator not hostile to the USSR be "balanced" with one
who was? Ah, but the cold war is over; ancient history and all that.
--
<J Q B>
grap...@aol.com
>Oh yeah? I recall dissertations about both the correct pronunciation of
>Nawlens, LA and Luhvul, KY. If they're talking about Cairo IL they call
>it "Kay-row" and not "Kye-row" -- what's that if not a regional
>variation?
Its what the people who live near the area choose to call the area. You
can come into those areas with a perfect British Butlers accent, and you
would still be expected to refer to the place by the chosen pronunciation
bestowed on the locale its citizens. In these situations it is not an
affectation, it is the places name. (I guess I'm taking point with your
using the phrase 'regional variation' although wouldn't you know, it is a
variation common to those regions. But it is also the places proper name.
If you live in Illinois and talk about Kayro, they know you are not
referring to Egypt, (but you might bre referring to corn syrup).
I think the trick with newscasting is to avoid sounding like a snob or
hick, and its entirely possible to trill the R in Nicaraugua a bit without
sounding pretentious as it is possible to over-do it.
I call it nyorlins mice elf, and would consider Nyoo Or LEENZ to come from
someone whose never had the Nawlins lecture. Being from the south it can
be rather mincing to hear the accent done poorly, I think it seriously
harms some actresses careers when they insist on doing a lot of Tennessee
Williams plays.
Daniel P Tasman
Greg Diamond (gdia...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu) wrote:
: Oh yeah? I recall dissertations about both the correct pronunciation of
: Nawlens, LA and Luhvul, KY. If they're talking about Cairo IL they call
: it "Kay-row" and not "Kye-row" -- what's that if not a regional
: variation?
For four years, I lived in Las Cruces, New Mexico. Anglos pronounced it
like "las-kru-ses." Hispanics pronounced it as "las-kru-ses."
Pretentious politically correct folks pronounced it as "las-ka-rrrrru-ces,"
complete with an attempt at a rolled "r" that isn't even in the Spanish
word "cruces" (crosses).
If I started pronouncing things in a Spanish way around my Hispanic
co-workers, they might assume that I was either making fun of them or
making a lame attempt at fitting in, much like how some white folks make
an attempt at sounding "black" whenever they're around other
African-Americans.
We don't make an attempt at trying to use regional or ethnic
pronunciations based on the origins or local usage for every single word
that's out there. I live in Buffalo, yet I'm not going to get on
someone's case because they don't pronounce it "buf-flo" like the natives
do. I don't spell color "colour" if I'm corresponding with someone that
has a *.uk or .au address. I don't say "know what I'm saying?" at the end
of every sentence if I'm talking to someone who is black - most would
rightly see that as an insult. I say "Paris, France," not "Paree,
Frahnss" So - why should I have to exaggerate the pronunciation of words
like "San Antonio," "Florida," "fiesta," "plaza" and "enchilada"?
That's _not_ to say that I'm not going to make an attempt at trying to
speak the native language in the way that it was intended to be spoken
when I'm overseas. However, Engligh is a living language where the vast
majority of its vocabulary was imported from other languages. If we were
forced to pronounce those words as they were in the language that they
originated from, English would be a far more difficult language for most
of us to speak and learn.
Flames will be immediately archived in http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/dev/null.
Shack Toms
gdia...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Greg Diamond) wrote:
>In article <328708af....@news.esinet.net>,
>Shack Toms <sh...@esinet.net> wrote:
>>And I have never heard NPR use a regional US accent when using a
>>US American proper name. "Today former president Jimmy Cawdeh
>>flew from his home in Jawe-juh to Neekalagwa..."
>
>Oh yeah? I recall dissertations about both the correct pronunciation of
>Nawlens, LA and Luhvul, KY.
I believe I recall such discussions being aired as well.
Perhaps too some discussion of the proper pronunciation of
Norfolk, VA (Nawfuk, approximately). But these seem to be
exceptions to the general rule. Have you ever heard them
pronounce President Carter's last name as he pronounces it
(except maybe when Bailey White or some other native southerner
was speaking)?
>If they're talking about Cairo IL they call
>it "Kay-row" and not "Kye-row" -- what's that if not a regional
>variation?
Maybe one of our linguists can help more here. But it seems to
me that there is a difference between that and using a regional
accent. A person from Brooklyn and a person from Mississippi
might both say Kay-row, but it wouldn't sound the same as when
said by a native of Cairo, IL.
>And I've heard lots of regional accents on NPR pass without
>notice (except for some reasons, those of some minorities which people
>seem to feel justified in complaining about.)
As one of those minorites, I'll agree with that. (Though having
a liberal president with a form of southern accent has helped.)
>If we are more relaxed
>about the use of US place names, it's because we recognize that we have a
>multiplicity of accents in our nation and we have reached a modus
>vivendi: you say Joe-juh, I'll say Georgia. The argument I've been
>making is that we should have a similar modus vivendi regarding foreign
>names and words: I'll let you pronounce them the USA way if you let me
>pronounce them the "native" way" -- without criticism. Right now you can
>do the former without being attacked, but not the latter, and that is no
>modus to go on vivendi.
It seems to me that pretty much however one goes about it, he
will be criticized. It isn't just you.
On further consideration, I believe that my rule of thumb is that
if I speak the native language then I tend to think of the place
name as a word in that language and use the accent of that
language (subject to my limited ability). If I don't speak the
native language, so that the word remains in my mind an English
word, then I will stick with my natural accent.
That rule of thumb might explain and justify much of the accent
switching/non-switching that occurs in the speech of others as
well. When speaking a US place name, the word continues to be
thought of as an English word, so the speaker will continue to
use his native accent.
What do you think about that theory?
Shack
Shack Toms
jla...@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu (John M. Lawler) wrote:
>Shack Toms <sh...@esinet.net> writes:
>>gdia...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Greg Diamond) writes:
>>>If they're talking about Cairo IL they call
>>>it "Kay-row" and not "Kye-row" -- what's that if not a regional
>>>variation?
>
>>Maybe one of our linguists can help more here. But it seems to
>>me that there is a difference between that and using a regional
>>accent. A person from Brooklyn and a person from Mississippi
>>might both say Kay-row, but it wouldn't sound the same as when
>>said by a native of Cairo, IL.
>
>I don't understand what kind of help you need. There are regional accents
>in the US. Not near as many as there are in the UK, but some, for sure.
>And there are lots of regional pronunciations of geographical names.
>So what else is new? How is this a problem?
I will try to be more clear, but you have been helpful. You
have, in the above, drawn a distinction between regional accents
and regional pronunciations. I was grasping at this idea.
That English has the concept of, say, a long a sound, but this
sound is not the same in different accents. So someone who
pronounces the first syllable of Cairo, IL with a long i is
likely to get corrected. But someone who pronounces the first
syllable with a long a is probably not going to be corrected,
even though there are regional differences in the pronunciation
of that long a sound.
It seemed to me that Greg was claiming the difference in
pronunciation was equivalent to the difference in accent. In
the case of "Nicaragua" I think that the thing that started all
of this was an inquiry into why people would change their accent
to a (presumably) Nicaraguan accent when saying the place name
for an English speaking audience.
I had started off on the same foot as Greg with my comment about
Deutschland v. Germany. But somehow when Greg wrote it, it
seemed wrong to me all of a sudden. :-)
>>As one of those minorites, I'll agree with that. (Though having
>>a liberal president with a form of southern accent has helped.)
>
>There is no accounting for what some people feel justified complaining
>about. As far as regional accents are concerned, that's largely an
>individual matter of esthetic taste. Certainly there's no moral stigma
>involved.
No moral stigma. But there is certainly an intellectual stigma.
Perhaps you have not had the pleasure of having an argument
rebutted merely by having your accent mocked.
>>On further consideration, I believe that my rule of thumb is that
>>if I speak the native language then I tend to think of the place
>>name as a word in that language and use the accent of that
>>language (subject to my limited ability). If I don't speak the
>>native language, so that the word remains in my mind an English
>>word, then I will stick with my natural accent.
>
>That's about the way most people do it. When you're talking, of course
>[which is the only time the pronunciation matters], you don't have a lot
>of time to think this over, and whatever pronunciation pops up first in
>the word search is apt to get said. There's also the fact that if you say
>/moskva/ or /beograd/ or /mu"nchen/ or /roma/ you might just possibly get
>misunderstood. But that's your lookout, not anybody else's. Feel free to
>be misunderstood if you want to.
Happens all the time.
But I think that the above rule, if widespread, explains why
someone might want to adopt using foreign accents for place names
as an affectation. It gives the impression that the person is a
polyglot and that has some social implications that might be
attractive.
Shack
John M. Lawler
>>>And I have never heard NPR use a regional US accent when using a
>>>US American proper name. "Today former president Jimmy Cawdeh
>>>flew from his home in Jawe-juh to Neekalagwa..."
Where did the "l" come from? I listen to NPR a lot but I've never heard
anybody pronounce 'Nicaragua' with an /l/ instead of an /r/. Of course,
which [r] is used varies quite a lot. Spanish /r/ sounds more like what
happens to an English /t/ in "fetish", while American English /r/ is
really a semivowel. But if you can't notate it, you can't really
criticize it, I'd opine.
And it seems to be network policy at all US networks to use midwestern
dialects as the standard. Tom Brokaw comes from Texas, I think. That's
not NPR, that's just networks for you.
>>Oh yeah? I recall dissertations about both the correct pronunciation of
>>Nawlens, LA and Luhvul, KY.
>I believe I recall such discussions being aired as well.
>Perhaps too some discussion of the proper pronunciation of
>Norfolk, VA (Nawfuk, approximately). But these seem to be
>exceptions to the general rule. Have you ever heard them
>pronounce President Carter's last name as he pronounces it
>(except maybe when Bailey White or some other native southerner
>was speaking)?
>>If they're talking about Cairo IL they call
>>it "Kay-row" and not "Kye-row" -- what's that if not a regional
>>variation?
>Maybe one of our linguists can help more here. But it seems to
>me that there is a difference between that and using a regional
>accent. A person from Brooklyn and a person from Mississippi
>might both say Kay-row, but it wouldn't sound the same as when
>said by a native of Cairo, IL.
I don't understand what kind of help you need. There are regional accents
in the US. Not near as many as there are in the UK, but some, for sure.
And there are lots of regional pronunciations of geographical names.
So what else is new? How is this a problem?
>>And I've heard lots of regional accents on NPR pass without
>>notice (except for some reasons, those of some minorities which people
>>seem to feel justified in complaining about.)
>As one of those minorites, I'll agree with that. (Though having
>a liberal president with a form of southern accent has helped.)
There is no accounting for what some people feel justified complaining
about. As far as regional accents are concerned, that's largely an
individual matter of esthetic taste. Certainly there's no moral stigma
involved.
>>If we are more relaxed
>>about the use of US place names, it's because we recognize that we have a
>>multiplicity of accents in our nation and we have reached a modus
>>vivendi: you say Joe-juh, I'll say Georgia. The argument I've been
>>making is that we should have a similar modus vivendi regarding foreign
>>names and words: I'll let you pronounce them the USA way if you let me
>>pronounce them the "native" way" -- without criticism. Right now you can
>>do the former without being attacked, but not the latter, and that is no
>>modus to go on vivendi.
Hey, "where there's never a boast or brag". Isn't that the way
the song goes?
>It seems to me that pretty much however one goes about it, he
>will be criticized. It isn't just you.
Bitching about other people's language is as American as religious
arguments. And about as useful. Both of them resolve into political
arguments of the fundamental kind:
"I'm right"
"No, I'm right"
>On further consideration, I believe that my rule of thumb is that
>if I speak the native language then I tend to think of the place
>name as a word in that language and use the accent of that
>language (subject to my limited ability). If I don't speak the
>native language, so that the word remains in my mind an English
>word, then I will stick with my natural accent.
That's about the way most people do it. When you're talking, of course
[which is the only time the pronunciation matters], you don't have a lot
of time to think this over, and whatever pronunciation pops up first in
the word search is apt to get said. There's also the fact that if you say
/moskva/ or /beograd/ or /mu"nchen/ or /roma/ you might just possibly get
misunderstood. But that's your lookout, not anybody else's. Feel free to
be misunderstood if you want to.
>That rule of thumb might explain and justify much of the accent
>switching/non-switching that occurs in the speech of others as
>well. When speaking a US place name, the word continues to be
>thought of as an English word, so the speaker will continue to
>use his native accent.
>What do you think about that theory?
If it works for you, fine. Maybe Greg has his own; he usually does. But
it's *your* language, after all -- you can pronounce it any way you want
to (subject to the laws of physics and physiology), and take the
consequences, including dealing with people who can't tell the difference
between "oral" and "moral".
I guess I don't understand what (if anything) is at issue here.
Sorry.
-John Lawler http://www.lsa.umich.edu/ling/jlawler/ U Michigan Linguistics
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a - Edward Sapir
mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations." Language (1921)
Daniel P Tasman
John M. Lawler (jla...@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu) wrote:
: I don't understand what kind of help you need. There are regional accents
: in the US. Not near as many as there are in the UK, but some, for sure.
: And there are lots of regional pronunciations of geographical names.
: So what else is new? How is this a problem?
Buffalo has one of the more grating regional accents - it's more
Midwestern ("Midland Northern" as linguists call it) than New Yorker
(contrary to popular belief, most people living in New York State _do not_
talk with a New York accent), with a nasal "flat-a" that seems more
pronounced in women then in men. This has the effect of pronouncing words
like cat, ran and land as if they have two syllables, not one. Thus, my
name (Dan) in a Buffalo accent tends to sound like a slurred "De-ann," Pat
sounds like "Pe-at," and so on.
Elementary schools in the Buffalo area, especially private schools, try to
"de-accentify" their students - a Buffalo accent is associated with
lower-middle class, relatively uneducated blue collar folks.
However, this doesn't mean that area newscasters pronounce place and
personal names with a Buffalo accent - Amherst isn't pronounced
"EAH-mm-erst" by Irv Weinstein, Cheektowaga is pronounced
"CHEEK-toe-wah-guh," not "chick-uh-tuh-VA-guh" like residents tend to say
it, and regional pronunciations like "raout" and "crick" aren't replaced
for route and creek. However, new newscasters tend to stumble over the
bevy of Iroquois-based place name - Cheektowaga, Lackawanna, Tonawanda,
Scajaquada, Canandaigua, and so on.
One politically correct affection that I've heard from a few outsiders -
the pronunciation of the word "Niagara" like "nee-AH-gra." as if it were
rooted in Spanish. (Even Hispanics that live on the Lower West Side,
around Niagara Street, say "nye-ag-gruh" like everyone else.)
Jim Balter
In article <566rgt$m...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Matthew D Eayre <mea...@pacman.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <jqbE0J...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <55um6n$h...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
>>Matthew D Eayre <mea...@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>>>>In article <55jsns$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>>>>>_overpronouncing_ Spanish sounding words, saying them with an exaggerated
>>>>>accent. Saturday Night Live did a skit on this about five years ago - a
>>>>>new Hispanic employee was at a meeting, and all his co-workers tried to
>>>>>overpronounce anything that sounded remotely Spanish to appease him.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Say, do you know how the Denver BROHN-KOS did last night?"
>>>>>"I think they beat the LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES Rams"
>>>>>"Is anyone hungry - I've got some NAH-CHOS here ..."
>>>>
>>>>I know people who take the move "Resurrection" as evidence of miracles.
>>>>Amazingly enough, Saturday Night Live is not real life.
>>>>
>>
>>evidence, which you immediately proceed to do.
I'm still waiting for you to point out where I said that Dan claimed
that SNL is real life.
>It is my interpretation of Dan's post that he was using the SNL skit as a
>description of the behavior, not as evidence.
Since the skit is exaggerated, it isn't a very good description, now is it?
But nonetheless, *you* take it as evidence that "the behavior exists in the
culture" below.
>I did not realize that
>there was any doubt that this behavior existed.
You learn something every day, don't you? Perhaps you didn't know that there
was any doubt that George Washington chopped down the cherry tree, or that the
world was thought to be flat at the time of Columbus, or that Lani Guinier was
a "quota queen". These are all things that many people have no doubt of. But
that doesn't make them so.
>>>Anyway, why isn't that a valid example. If a comedy group, or even a
>>>pathetic excuse for one like SNL, performs a skit where they mimic and
>>>exaggerate a behavior, isn't that a good indication that that behavior
>>>exists in the culture, at least to some extent?
>>
>>Since the complaint is about exaggerated behavior, taking a skit that
>>exaggerates behavior as evidence of said exaggerated behavior is rather lame.
>>
>The behavior is non-latinos using an exaggerated latino accent when
>speaking Spanish words. The exaggerated behavior is using an even more
>exaggerated latino accent on any word that is remotely similar to a
>Spanish word, even words that are clearly not Spanish. If one was not
>familiar with the actual behavior, then one would probably not recognize
>the exaggeration in the skit and therefore might not realize that they
>were mimicking an actual behavior. If one had observed such behavior,
>then the skit would be an indication that other people had observed such
>behavior and that such behavior wasn't isolated to one's immediate
>surroundings.
Sorta like Al Jolson and Step 'n Fetchit, or Jewish and Scottish cheapskates,
eh?
*Very* lame reasoning.
>>The fact is that no one other than Cheech Marin (who probably is the real
>>source of that skit) says LOHS-AHN-GUH-LEES (let alone LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES), and
>>NAW-CHOZ sure sounds right to me (how else would you pronounce it, natch-ohs?)
>>so this skit doesn't seem to be a very good indication of anything, other than
>>that lots of skits play to people's stereotypes. Racist stereotypes are
>>particularly appealing;
>>
>How did the making fun of a behavior of some non-latinos, who are mostly
>white, by the cast of SNL, which is mostly white (at least the last time I
>saw it) become a racial issue?
Well, I didn't actually say that that skit was racial, but rather the Ito
skit, if you would wipe off your glasses and read carefully. But the
introduction of the term "politically correct" made this whole discussion
racial in the first place. If it isn't racial, then just what correct
politics are involved in Spanish pronunciations?
>>some political figure got into a lot of trouble
>>mimicing Judge Ito with a fake Japanese accent and buck teeth; was his act
>>evidence that Ito has these traits? I don't think so.
>>
>If my only knowledge of Judge Ito was from the politician's mimicking, then
>that would be an indication to me that Ito might have some elements of
>those traits.
And thus you head down the slippery slope of racism. People mimic the
Japanese with offensive and phony Japanese accents, that *no* Japanese person
has, let alone Ito, who is as American as you are. But if someone made some
joke about a cheap Jew, that would be an indication to you she might have some
element of that trait. Or if someone joked about a stupid Pole, that would be
an indication to you that he might have trait. Etc. ad nauseating.
>Other knowledge contradicts that indication. That is why I
>said the SNL skit is an indication, not solid, indisputable proof.
And I say that that is indistinguishable from it reinforcing your stereotypes.
You *argue* above that it is *evidence* of those stereotypes being valid.
Just as you argue that a racist imitation of a phony Japanese accent
is evidence that someone has such an accent, evidence that you only discount
because you have contrary evidence. What it should show you is that such
an imitation is *no evidence at all*. It could be accurate, or it could
reinforce a stereotype, either way.
>There
>is also a difference between one individual insulting another and a comedy
>group, where there would likely be a diversity of ideas, making fun of a
>strange behavior engaged in by a group of people. The latter is a lot
>more likely reflect reality.
This is a lame ad hoc argument. One of the things done in comedy is to take
stereotypes and exaggerate them or mock them. Virtually all of the comedy
that preyed on blacks for a hundred years after the civil war was of the
former kind. And SNL has a habit of doing the latter sort, mocking incredibly
stupid stereotypes that people have of blacks, Jews, the Japanese, knee-jerk
conservatives, bleeding-heart liberals, etc.
>>>I also happen to agree with Dan's sentiment. I find it strange that
>>>people who pronounce most of their words with a typical American accent
>>>would speak words of Spanish origin with a Mexican or Spanish accent. It
>>>is possible to pronounce those word "correctly" and not use the accent.
>>
>>And your evidence for this behavior is a SNL skit.
>>
>And personal observation.
And personal bias.
>>So, how do you pronounce Des Moines? And Des Plaines?
>>Surely it should be possible to pronounce both of these "correctly".
>>
>Des Moines: Da Moin, where the Moin sort of rhymes with coin. I am not
>familiar with Des Plaines. What is your point?
The point is that Dan's complaint of "political correctness" against people
trying to pronounce things they way they think, for whatever reason, is
correct, and his labeling this as not "correct" (downright unAmerikun)
is a hot pile of steaming crap.
>>But why consider such issues when you
>>can pin the whole thing on a political conspiracy against whiny white males.
>>
>Why does it seem that most of your posts consist mainly of insults?
Because you are not good at evaluating evidence? I've posted purely
informative material on many topics. The insults come in the wake of
jack-booted thugs who wield the "politically correct" baton to abuse anyone
politics other than what *they* think is correct.
>Why
>can't I state that I find a behavior strange without being told it is
>because I am threatened by it?
If you will recall, the claim here was not merely that pronunciations were
"strange", but that they were the result of being "politically correct".
--
<J Q B>
Edward Rice
In article <jqbE0J...@netcom.com>,
j...@netcom.com (Jim Balter) wrote:
> I have yet to hear anyone on the network news pronounce it this way (in
fact,
> despite the recent election there, the network news seems uninterested)
and
> the only people I have heard say it that way in on NPR are latino, and I
> suspect they do so only when they forget where they are.
Peter Jennings does, I believe. I've heard it on non-PBS TV a number of
times, but I can't remember who the talking heads all were.
Daan Sandee
In article <565uea$a...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>, jla...@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu (John M. Lawler) writes:
|>
|> And it seems to be network policy at all US networks to use midwestern
|> dialects as the standard. Tom Brokaw comes from Texas, I think. That's
|> not NPR, that's just networks for you.
Tom Brokaw is from North Dakota (or possibly South Dakota. Big deal.)
Dan Rather is a Texan, and it's noticeable.
Peter Jennings is a Canadian, and it's very noticeable.
Midwest is standard ?
Daan Sandee
Burlington, MA Use this email address: sandee (at) cmns . think . com
Daan Sandee
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.961110...@mole.uvm.edu>,>Saying you went to see <hey-lee>'s Comet is disrespectful and
>ignorant. (it's hah-lee, to rhyme w/ "valley")
Actually Edmund Halley's name is currently pronounced to rhyme with
"Crawley." He's not around to correct us, though.
Jim Balter
In article <565uea$a...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
John M. Lawler <jla...@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>I guess I don't understand what (if anything) is at issue here.
Some people have an ideological axe to grind, that axe being that certain
"incorrect" pronunciations are signs of a politically correct mindset
or of bleeding heart liberal do-goodness or something of the sort.
>Sorry.
No apologies needed for having trouble following that line of thought.
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <566cd3$a...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
"politically correct" is self-reflexive; those who use the phrase are
necessarily describing themselves.
>the pronunciation of the word "Niagara" like "nee-AH-gra." as if it were
>rooted in Spanish. (Even Hispanics that live on the Lower West Side,
>around Niagara Street, say "nye-ag-gruh" like everyone else.)
Yup; the locals know the local pronunciation. Even the Hispanic ones.
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.961110...@mole.uvm.edu>,
Jeffrey Nelson / STILL AGIN' <jlne...@mole.uvm.edu> wrote:
>correct" is used by detractors to compare justice in speech to a fad or
>some other less legitimate movement. Calling women "women" instead of
>"girls" or "chics" isn't being politically correct, it's being accurate
>and wise. Saying you went to see <hey-lee>'s Comet is disrespectful and
>ignorant. (it's hah-lee, to rhyme w/ "valley")
Actually, "politically correct" was originally a term used by leftists to
chide their fellows for deep-end humorlessness. "He's so politically correct,
we can't even talk about the weather without his bringing up dialectical
materialism." Tracing the current meaning is an interesting exercise in the
study of propaganda. This might be a good one for Cecil.
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.961110...@mole.uvm.edu>,
Jeffrey Nelson / STILL AGIN' <jlne...@mole.uvm.edu> wrote:
>Jeffrey: Yes, they are. They're ssentially de facto authorities. People
>do not listen to others who think they "prescribe" language usage.
Columnists (and others, for that matter) who complain about pronunciation
aren't authorities, they are just whiners. And they are often wrong on
language matters; Safire blows it all the time.
Years ago, I remember hearing Edwin Newman whine on about the word
"parameterization", because he just couldn't understand how you could
"parameterize" something. Unfortunately, he was suffering from a confusion
between "parameter" and "perimeter", a confusion common enough that it has
made its way into the dictionaries. But the language changes as it is used;
enough people use "enormity" in contexts such as "the enormity of the Pacific
Ocean" that it has to a large degree lost its sense of "great evil".
--
<J Q B>
John M. Lawler
Daan Sandee <san...@think.com.nospam> writes:
>jla...@umich.edu (John Lawler) writes:
>|> And it seems to be network policy at all US networks to use midwestern
>|> dialects as the standard. Tom Brokaw comes from Texas, I think. That's
>|> not NPR, that's just networks for you.
>Tom Brokaw is from North Dakota (or possibly South Dakota. Big deal.)
>Dan Rather is a Texan, and it's noticeable.
>Peter Jennings is a Canadian, and it's very noticeable.
Sorry again. I have trouble telling Tom and Dan apart; I rarely watch TV
news. Peter Jennings *does* have a little Canadian Raising, but so do
most of the people in Northern Michigan, so I rarely notice that, either.
In any event, none of the national newscasters have the pronounced
regional accent of (say) Lyndon Johnson, Strom Thurmond, or
Tip O'Neill.
>Midwest is standard ?
Yup. There's a book published by the networks, or by one
of them, standardizing those pronunciations. Or attempting to.
Matthew D Eayre
In article <jqbE0J...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <55um6n$h...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
>Matthew D Eayre <mea...@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>>In article <jqbE0E...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>_overpronouncing_ Spanish sounding words, saying them with an exaggerated
>>>>accent. Saturday Night Live did a skit on this about five years ago - a
>>>>new Hispanic employee was at a meeting, and all his co-workers tried to
>>>>overpronounce anything that sounded remotely Spanish to appease him.
>>>>
>>>>"Say, do you know how the Denver BROHN-KOS did last night?"
>>>>"I think they beat the LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES Rams"
>>>>"Is anyone hungry - I've got some NAH-CHOS here ..."
>>>
>>>I know people who take the move "Resurrection" as evidence of miracles.
>>>Amazingly enough, Saturday Night Live is not real life.
>>>
>>I'm curious, could you point out where he claimed that SNL is real life?
>
>Can you point out where I said he did? I think I referred to taking it as
>evidence, which you immediately proceed to do.
>
there was any doubt that this behavior existed.
>>Anyway, why isn't that a valid example. If a comedy group, or even a
>>pathetic excuse for one like SNL, performs a skit where they mimic and
>>exaggerate a behavior, isn't that a good indication that that behavior
>>exists in the culture, at least to some extent?
>
>Since the complaint is about exaggerated behavior, taking a skit that
>exaggerates behavior as evidence of said exaggerated behavior is rather lame.
>
The behavior is non-latinos using an exaggerated latino accent when
speaking Spanish words. The exaggerated behavior is using an even more
exaggerated latino accent on any word that is remotely similar to a
Spanish word, even words that are clearly not Spanish. If one was not
familiar with the actual behavior, then one would probably not recognize
the exaggeration in the skit and therefore might not realize that they
were mimicking an actual behavior. If one had observed such behavior,
then the skit would be an indication that other people had observed such
behavior and that such behavior wasn't isolated to one's immediate
surroundings.
>The fact is that no one other than Cheech Marin (who probably is the real
>source of that skit) says LOHS-AHN-GUH-LEES (let alone LOS-HEN-GUH-LEES), and
>NAW-CHOZ sure sounds right to me (how else would you pronounce it, natch-ohs?)
>so this skit doesn't seem to be a very good indication of anything, other than
>that lots of skits play to people's stereotypes. Racist stereotypes are
>particularly appealing;
>
How did the making fun of a behavior of some non-latinos, who are mostly
white, by the cast of SNL, which is mostly white (at least the last time I
saw it) become a racial issue?
>some political figure got into a lot of trouble
>mimicing Judge Ito with a fake Japanese accent and buck teeth; was his act
>evidence that Ito has these traits? I don't think so.
>
If my only knowledge of Judge Ito was from the politician's mimicking, then
that would be an indication to me that Ito might have some elements of
those traits. Other knowledge contradicts that indication. That is why I
said the SNL skit is an indication, not solid, indisputable proof. There
is also a difference between one individual insulting another and a comedy
group, where there would likely be a diversity of ideas, making fun of a
strange behavior engaged in by a group of people. The latter is a lot
more likely reflect reality.
>>I also happen to agree with Dan's sentiment. I find it strange that
>>people who pronounce most of their words with a typical American accent
>>would speak words of Spanish origin with a Mexican or Spanish accent. It
>>is possible to pronounce those word "correctly" and not use the accent.
>
>And your evidence for this behavior is a SNL skit.
>
And personal observation.
>So, how do you pronounce Des Moines? And Des Plaines?
>Surely it should be possible to pronounce both of these "correctly".
>
Des Moines: Da Moin, where the Moin sort of rhymes with coin. I am not
familiar with Des Plaines. What is your point? I think we may be
operating with different definitions. Although this concept may not be
technically correct among linguists, I feel that people with different
accents can pronounce a word the same way, but due to the different
accents, they will sound differently. Since the use of Spanish words and
latino accents seems to be a racial issue for you, why don't I try to
propose another example using a group that consists mainly of descendents
of northern Europeans. Natives of Minnesota, particularly those who live
north of the Cities tend to have a distinct accent. One of my roommates
last year, who is from southeastern Minnesota, didn't have much of one,
but his sister seemed to when I met her. Anyway, a common feature of said
Minnesota accent is a drawing out of the long O. A good example is how
they say "Minnesota". When I mimic it, I hold the long O sound a bit
longer and drop my pitch a bit as compared to when I say it with my normal
hybrid Midwest-eastern accent. Since both his sister and I say the word
with a long O, I feel we are both pronouncing it the same; it is just that
our accents are different. If I were to move to Minnesota and lived in an
area where that accent was quite prevalent, I would expect, that over
time, I would pick up that accent. So not only would I naturally draw out
my long O when saying Minnesota, I would as well as when saying words like
boat. However, if I only drew out my long O when saying proper names like
Minnesota, then I would consider that strange behavior. And if Tom
Brokaw, who I thought was from South Dakota, started pronouncing Minnesota
with a drawn out long O, even though he clearly doesn't have a Minnesota
accent, I would think that was strange as well. It is the comparable
behavior with latino accents that I was commenting about and what I
believe Dan was commenting about. In latino accents, certain sounds are
said differently, plus there seems to be a slightly different rhythm used.
The generally accepted way of pronouncing a word consists of a certain
syllable division and certain sounds (e.g. long O versus short O). I feel
the appropriate way to say the word is with your natural accent and I find
it strange that one would adopt a different accent for specific words.
Perhaps you feel differently. If so, fine. I might find it strange, but
it doesn't really bother me.
>As I mentioned before, I live in Santa Barbara, where 50% of the population is
>latino. There are good sociological reasons why non-latinos here tend to
>speak like their latino neighbors. Place names particularly, since people
>often don't know how to pronounce them and go by what they think is
>authoritative. Also people's names, like Violeta Chamorro. Or Jesus; if your
>pronounce Jesus Lopez the way you pronounce Jesus Christ, people will look at
>you really funny (and probably figure you're from Buffalo).
>
And if I were to visit Minnesota, establish that I am from Ohio and then
start saying things with a Minnesota accent, they would probably look
at me really funny as well. I do have a memory of meeting a latino named
Jesus who pronounced his name like I would pronounce Jesus Christ. I
remember thinking how unusual that seemed. But anyway, chances are, I
would say Mr. Lopez's first name (with allusions to _Die Hard With a
Vengeance_) with the "Hey Zeus" pronunciation and I would say it with my
hybrid Midwest-eastern accent. I wouldn't try to use his presumably
latino accent.
>When you spend
>all day talking to Jesus and Juan and Jose and Ms. Gutierrez and Mr. Gallegos
>(as in GUY-YAY-GOHSS) and driving down Carrillo or Canon Perdido or Arrelaga
>or Cielito Sts., the "correct" pronunciation may not seem so obvious.
>
>But the demographic mix might be a bit different in Buffalo or Michigan, which
>might make your experience different.
>
That could very well be it. Perhaps since you live in an area with a high
latino population you don't observe this. Perhaps the non-latinos hear
the latino accents enough so they are less likely to overuse it. Perhaps
you are so used to hearing the latino accents you don't notice when a
non-latino overuses it. I don't know. If you have never really observed
this behavior among non-latinos, I am curious why you just couldn't have
civilly posted a response saying that you have never noticed it and
perhaps it was because you live in an area with a high latino population.
Instead you insinuate that we are provincial little racists (is that
redundant?) because a behavior that we have observed doesn't exist in your
little corner of the world.
>But why consider such issues when you
>can pin the whole thing on a political conspiracy against whiny white males.
>
Why does it seem that most of your posts consist mainly of insults? Why
can't I state that I find a behavior strange without being told it is
because I am threatened by it?
--
Jim Balter
In article <328b10d1....@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
Robert Crowe <robc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:39:01 GMT, the alleged Jim Balter, may have posted
>the following, to alt.fan.cecil-adams:
>
><snip>
>
>>Years ago, I remember hearing Edwin Newman whine on about the word
>>"parameterization", because he just couldn't understand how you could
>>"parameterize" something. Unfortunately, he was suffering from a confusion
>>between "parameter" and "perimeter", a confusion common enough that it has
>>made its way into the dictionaries.
>
>big dic (Compact OED) are quite clear on the words "parameter" and
Not a source for modern American usage.
>"perimeter" and their definitions without any ambiguity, (thread) drift,
>linking or cross-referencing between the two.
Random House Unabridged.
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <567be1$4...@bone.think.com>,
Daan Sandee <san...@think.com.nospam> wrote:
>In article <565uea$a...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>, jla...@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu (John M. Lawler) writes:
>|>
>|> dialects as the standard. Tom Brokaw comes from Texas, I think. That's
>|> not NPR, that's just networks for you.
>
>Dan Rather is a Texan, and it's noticeable.
>Peter Jennings is a Canadian, and it's very noticeable.
We all know that the entire country of Canada is politically correct (draft
dodgers and all), so that explains it.
>Midwest is standard ?
A median of sorts.
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <328820...@pobox.com>, A & A <fr...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Even Santa Barbarans aren't consistent. How do you pronouce
>Salsipuedes?
>
>Salsipuedes is a (the?) main street in Santa Barbara, the natives
>pronounce it sal-SIP-pwa-dees, it is really the Spanish phrase Sal si
>puedes (sawl SEE PWAY-days), which roughly means, "Get out if you can."
I'll keep my ears open; I'm as eager to infer people's political views from
how they pronounce a word as the next guy.
--
<J Q B>
Mark Brader
> > Saying you went to see <hey-lee>'s Comet is disrespectful and
> > ignorant. (it's hah-lee, to rhyme w/ "valley")
> I recall reading, perhaps in Discover magazine when the comet last came
> by, that his descendents pronounce their name "Holly".
More likely that should be "Hawley", but was transcribed by someone whose
accent does not distinguish the "aw" and "short O" vowel sounds. (Most
American accents don't. Most British accents do.)
As for the comet, in my lifetime it's changed from "Halley's Comet" to
"Comet Halley" to "Comet P/Halley". The P stands for Periodic, meaning
in effect that its orbit is known and its periodic returns predictable.
--
Mark Brader "If you need features not found in any language,
m...@sq.com you can try your hand at creating your own.
SoftQuad Inc. (Mind you, language design is incredibly difficult.
Toronto It is easy to create an unholy mess.)" -- Chris Torek
My text in this article is in the public domain.
M C Hamster
I'm worried about adding anything to this thread which seems to be fairly
combustible... more a fuse than a thread, really... but...
I studied French for a number of years, have been told I speak it amazingly
well for an American (<<aucune accent!>> once said a cab driver to me, which
compliment made me glow with pride), and enjoy speaking it when I can. I just
enjoy the sound of the words, and I suppose feel some pride at my proficiency
at pronunciation. In many cases, when I have the option, I will pronounce
words with their accurate French inflection, though I am fully aware of the
affectation. I do it cuz it's fun. The same is true often for Spanish
words... I just like the sound, and it seems respectful.
But when I lived in London several years ago, I travelled all over the
continent on business. English was the language which was always used for
discussion, but of course it was spoken by the foreigners with a French
accent, or German accent, etc. The *horrible* thing that I found kept
happening was that, as I would be talking with them, I LOVED the sound of
their accents, and without knowing it I would begin speaking English with
THEIR accent. "Zis is ze important zing.." It was insidious... and I am sure
very offensive. (I particularly loved the German accent, speaking English...
this fun, glottal thing you got to do.) But I didn't mean it as anything
offensive... in fact, I meant it as a sign of respect, of a willingness to
accommodate myself to my audience. Misguided reasoning, yes, but that had
something to do with it...
I think that my tendancy to do that is linked to my ability to learn to speak
French well... that I have some sort of "ear" for the sound of languages. Or
something. Anywaze, to tie this back to the thread, I will pronounce a
Spanish word the way it seems like a native Hispanic would. I won't say "Los
AN-Hell-EEZE" because I suspect even Hispanics who live there don't often do
that... but I will exaggeratedly (i.e., accurately) pronounce GWA-duh-la-HAR-a
(with a little trill on the "r"), and maybe order a Burrrrrrrrr-EE-toe (man, I
LOVE those Spanish RR's!!! So sensual... so erotic.)
Emma Say AHM-Stairrr
John M. Lawler
>>>Maybe one of our linguists can help more here. But it seems to
>>>me that there is a difference between that and using a regional
>>>accent. A person from Brooklyn and a person from Mississippi
>>>might both say Kay-row, but it wouldn't sound the same as when
>>>said by a native of Cairo, IL.
>>I don't understand what kind of help you need. There are regional accents
>>in the US. Not near as many as there are in the UK, but some, for sure.
>>And there are lots of regional pronunciations of geographical names.
>>So what else is new? How is this a problem?
>I will try to be more clear, but you have been helpful. You
>have, in the above, drawn a distinction between regional accents
>and regional pronunciations. I was grasping at this idea.
>That English has the concept of, say, a long a sound, but this
>sound is not the same in different accents. So someone who
>pronounces the first syllable of Cairo, IL with a long i is
>likely to get corrected. But someone who pronounces the first
>syllable with a long a is probably not going to be corrected,
>even though there are regional differences in the pronunciation
>of that long a sound.
Why worry about being corrected? If you're right, they're wrong,
and if you're wrong, then you need the correction. But proper
names don't have a "correct" pronunciation in the same sense
as (say) "rough" or "cough" or "through" do. They get pronounced
in various ways, and those may be different from one place to another,
or from one person to another, because English spelling, especially
for proper names, underdetermines pronunciation.
I come from DeKalb, IL, pronounced /di kae'lb/, and have
lived in a place close to DeKalb, MO, pronounced /di kae'b/;
and I know that Atlanta, GA (I think) is in DeKalb county,
pronounced /di ka'lb/. These I chalk up to experience. If
I were to go to Atlanta and say /di kae'lb/ or /di kae'b/
I'd expect to be corrected. How else would I learn?
>It seemed to me that Greg was claiming the difference in
>pronunciation was equivalent to the difference in accent. In
>the case of "Nicaragua" I think that the thing that started all
>of this was an inquiry into why people would change their accent
>to a (presumably) Nicaraguan accent when saying the place name
>for an English speaking audience.
There is no Nicaraguan accent of English. Though there is
a Nicaraguan accent in Spanish, "Nicaragua" would be pronounced
pretty much the same in most dialects of Spanish.
>>There is no accounting for what some people feel justified complaining
>>about. As far as regional accents are concerned, that's largely an
>>individual matter of esthetic taste. Certainly there's no moral stigma
>>involved.
>No moral stigma. But there is certainly an intellectual stigma.
>Perhaps you have not had the pleasure of having an argument
>rebutted merely by having your accent mocked.
Well, sometimes people might *try* to rebut my arguments that way.
But generally not very successfully, at least in my opinion, which
is the only one that counts. If someone were ignorant enough to
think that that mattered, obviously they would be way too ignorant
to bother arguing with.
As for "intellectual stigma", I don't understand what you mean.
Pronunciation of words has nothing to do with intellectual life,
and an intellectual stigma, to me, would mean something like
advancing obviously ridiculous ideas like racial superiority.
>>>On further consideration, I believe that my rule of thumb is that
>>>if I speak the native language then I tend to think of the place
>>>name as a word in that language and use the accent of that
>>>language (subject to my limited ability). If I don't speak the
>>>native language, so that the word remains in my mind an English
>>>word, then I will stick with my natural accent.
>I think that the above rule, if widespread, explains why
>someone might want to adopt using foreign accents for place names
>as an affectation. It gives the impression that the person is a
>polyglot and that has some social implications that might be
>attractive.
But what should us polyglots do? I happen to *like* pronouncing
"Nicaragua" as if it were a Spanish word, which it is. I like speaking
Spanish, and I get too few chances as it is. Maybe one should only
pronounce foreign names as they're pronounced in the local languages if
one speaks the local languages? Maybe it's an invitation to continue
the conversation in Spanish? Maybe one shouldn't worry so much about
pronunciation and worry more about meaning?
curtis cameron
This thread was originally about how some people, especially labor and
delivery nurses, pronounce the word like SAHNtimeters. I promised that
I would report what I learned going through the L&D experience.
My boy was born Sunday night, Nov 3 - see his pictures at
http://members.aol.com/BBCameron/
We went through three shifts of L&D nurses, and they all pronounced the
word as SENtimeters (correctly).
There was, however, an anesthesia nurse who once said SAHN-, then later
more clearly said SEN-. I think it might have been her accent coming
through - her name was something like Ragedeh, which to me sounds
Arabic, and she spoke English very clearly but with an accent.
So, the odd pronunciation of centimeters doesn't seem to be prevalent,
at least at that hospital (Presbyterian Hospital of Dallas).
-curtis cameron
posting from WGS-84 32.975 north, 96.709 west
A & A
Jim Balter wrote:
....
> As I mentioned before, I live in Santa Barbara, where 50% of the population is
> latino. There are good sociological reasons why non-latinos here tend to
> speak like their latino neighbors. Place names particularly, since people
> often don't know how to pronounce them and go by what they think is
> authoritative. Also people's names, like Violeta Chamorro. Or Jesus; if your
> pronounce Jesus Lopez the way you pronounce Jesus Christ, people will look at
> all day talking to Jesus and Juan and Jose and Ms. Gutierrez and Mr. Gallegos
> (as in GUY-YAY-GOHSS) and driving down Carrillo or Canon Perdido or Arrelaga
> or Cielito Sts., the "correct" pronunciation may not seem so obvious.
Even Santa Barbarans aren't consistent. How do you pronouce
Jim Balter
In article <5689nt$b...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
The issue here from the beginning has been the groundless insinuation,
repeated by Shack Toms above, that one can *infer* from mere pronunciation
what another's motivation is in pronouncing words as they do; rather than
being so concerned about what motivates people to speak as they do, perhaps we
should be more concerned with what motivates people to make such inferences.
--
<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <davolson.1...@interaccess.com>,
M C Hamster <davo...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>I'm worried about adding anything to this thread which seems to be fairly
>combustible... more a fuse than a thread, really... but...
>
>I studied French for a number of years, have been told I speak it amazingly
>well for an American (<<aucune accent!>> once said a cab driver to me, which
>compliment made me glow with pride), and enjoy speaking it when I can. I just
>enjoy the sound of the words, and I suppose feel some pride at my proficiency
>at pronunciation. In many cases, when I have the option, I will pronounce
>words with their accurate French inflection, though I am fully aware of the
>affectation. I do it cuz it's fun. The same is true often for Spanish
>words... I just like the sound, and it seems respectful.
Are you *sure* it's not because you are trying to be "politically correct"?
Hmmm, maybe Dan could be wrong after all ...
>LOVE those Spanish RR's!!! So sensual... so erotic.)
Erotic ... sex ... decay of moral values ...
hmmm, must be political after all.
--
<J Q B>
grap...@aol.com
>Sorry again. I have trouble telling Tom <Brokaw> and Dan <Rather>apart;
Huh? I find Dan rather pedestrian and dull, while Tom does very unusual
and amazing things with his 'R's and 'W's. It sounds like a ventriliquist
trying to make one consonant sound like another and its fascinating to
listen to, or to hear Harry Shearer imitate. I don't know it there is a
history of a speech impediment in Brokaws background or not, but its not
uncommon for announcers to have such in their history.
Daniel P Tasman
Jeffrey Nelson / STILL AGIN' (jlne...@mole.uvm.edu) wrote:
: You mean Japanese tourists don't say "Nee-ah-gar-ah"?
No, it's just pretentious Americans.
I really should take back what I said about "political correctness" in
overpronuncing Spanish-sounding words. I said that to begin with, just
because it seems like the people that I've noticed doing that are
generally more "liberal" thank those that don't (personally, my politics
lean left of center, if it really matters). The pronunciation really
seems to be more pretentious, like my earlier example of some graphic
design folks pronouncing the font "Gill Sans" as a French-sounding
"gea-saah," even though Gill was an Englishman.
Cheers,
Dan
Daniel P Tasman
M C Hamster (davo...@interaccess.com) wrote:
: But when I lived in London several years ago, I travelled all over the
: continent on business. English was the language which was always used for
: discussion, but of course it was spoken by the foreigners with a French
: accent, or German accent, etc. The *horrible* thing that I found kept
: happening was that, as I would be talking with them, I LOVED the sound of
: their accents, and without knowing it I would begin speaking English with
: THEIR accent. "Zis is ze important zing.." It was insidious... and I am sure
: very offensive.
I sure hope you don't do that in Compton ... :-)
Jim Balter
In article <56994s$n...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>
>: You mean Japanese tourists don't say "Nee-ah-gar-ah"?
>
>No, it's just pretentious Americans.
>
>I really should take back what I said about "political correctness" in
>overpronuncing Spanish-sounding words. I said that to begin with, just
>because it seems like the people that I've noticed doing that are
>generally more "liberal" thank those that don't (personally, my politics
>lean left of center, if it really matters). The pronunciation really
>seems to be more pretentious, like my earlier example of some graphic
>design folks pronouncing the font "Gill Sans" as a French-sounding
>"gea-saah," even though Gill was an Englishman.
If someone frequently encounters the word sans being pronounced in a French
way, it is only natural to repeat that in other contexts, and to assume that
both words in a phrase have common roots.
I would suggest giving up on the sorts of inferences you make altogether.
They are quite unreliable.
And equating "politically correct" with "liberal" is sheer propaganda.
Conservatives and those on the right have plenty of their own ways to
to force and enforce their political views.
And the word "liberal" itself has been the center of a propaganda campaign,
conflating all sorts of things such as "tax and spend", "socialist", and
"compassionate". Perhaps the folks you mention are just plain considerate but
misinformed. Who the heck could say what their fiscal outlooks are, or where
they stand on abortion or freedom of speech?
--
<J Q B>
M C Hamster
Just one followup to my earlier note about my awful tendancy to begin speaking
English with a foreign accent when talking with others speaking English with
THEIR foreign accents... I realized, suddenly, that I think I do this in part
because I somehow, probably falsely, think it would be easier for them to
understand what I was saying if I use their faulty inflection, than if I were
to speak it in my normal American accent.
Is there any truth to this, I wonder?
(Certainly, one thing I DO do to help them is to speak more slowly... which is
a deviation from "normal" English. I think, in speaking more slowly, I also
begin to speak it the way they do in terms of inflection...)
I'm trying to think what it might be like to having a French person speaking
French to me with an American accent... or speaking it the way I do. Of
course, since I don't have much of an accent...
I'm curious if anyone else has any observations on this.
M C Hamster "Big Wheel Keep on Turnin'" -- Creedence Clearvasser Refifal
grap...@aol.com
> The pronunciation really seems to be more pretentious, like my
> earlier example of some graphic design folks pronouncing the font
> "Gill Sans" as a French-sounding "gea-saah," even though Gill was an
> Englishman.
So what is really preferred? vincent van go, or vincent van hock or
vincent van throat clearing noise? Unfortunately vincent or theo aren't
here to correct us, and the masses themselves sort of create their own
'correct" pronunciation by default.
grap...@aol.com
> The *horrible* thing that I found kept
> : happening was that, as I would be talking with them, I LOVED the
> sound of
> : their accents, and without knowing it I would begin speaking
> English with
> : THEIR accent. "Zis is ze important zing.." It was insidious... and
> I am sure
> : very offensive.
Its also very common and easy for many people to do. I fall prey to the
same habit usually in less than 15 seconds, but there is no malicious
mockery intended it is merely pciking up on the music of language.
Jim Balter
In article <19961113002...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
You mean it's not because you are "pretentious"?
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<J Q B>
Jim Balter
In article <56b83f$a...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,>grap...@aol.com wrote:
>
>: > The pronunciation really seems to be more pretentious, like my
>posted the question about Gill Sans. The proper pronunciation is actually
>"Gill Sans." However, a few pretentious folks pronounce it as "gea-sah,"
>because they are, well, pretentious.
And demonstrably not because they made a reasonable mistake, or heard it from
someone who did, eh?
>I originally posed the question
>because I didn't know whether I was boorish in pronouncing is "Gill Sans,"
>or whether the font geeks that I knew were trying to sound hoity-toity.
>It turns out that the latter is more likely to be true.
Perhaps those aren't the only options.
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<J Q B>
Greg Diamond
In article <563fkc$a...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,>We don't make an attempt at trying to use regional or ethnic
>pronunciations based on the origins or local usage for every single word
>that's out there. I live in Buffalo, yet I'm not going to get on
>someone's case because they don't pronounce it "buf-flo" like the natives
>do. I don't spell color "colour" if I'm corresponding with someone that
>has a *.uk or .au address. I don't say "know what I'm saying?" at the end
>of every sentence if I'm talking to someone who is black - most would
>rightly see that as an insult. I say "Paris, France," not "Paree,
>Frahnss" So - why should I have to exaggerate the pronunciation of words
>like "San Antonio," "Florida," "fiesta," "plaza" and "enchilada"?
You don't have to. And I don't have to do it your way. But I've never
made fun of you for doing it your way, while you seem to find people who
do it my way amusing and targets of ridicule. I accept the above
paragraph as your plea for tolerance, but we supposed PC types aren't the
ones who have *been* intolerant in this case; y'all have.
--
<><><> A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance
Greg<> -- H. D. Thoreau
<>/\<>
<>\/<> Thank the correlation of forces for Sen. Paul Wellstone!