Debit Card system sucks (and so does Papa John's
Lars Eighner
the executive summary:
Debit cards suck.
They suck for the following reason (among other): When you
present a debit card, the money is zapped from the available
funds in a matter of seconds. But if for some reason the
transaction needs to be reversed - that is, if the merchant
has to refund your money, it takes days and days for you to
get the money back in your available balance. Not only do you
not have *that* money, but the charge keeps reposting every day
until it expires or something, and counts against your debit
card limit that day. That means you cannot spend your debit
card limit elsewhere even if you have money to cover both the
refunded amount and the new amount in your checking account.
Papa John's sucks, too.
--End Executive Summary
Friday had been a bad day, but I was sufficiently under the
weather with allergies (which I couldn't do anything about
because I couldn't get pseudoephedrine - another tirade) and
sufficiently flushed to order pizza from Papa John's. We aren't
rolling in money like college students, but we do this about
twice a month, and it is about our only luxury - we don't go
out, we don't do cable, etc. About twice a month and we have
been ording from Papa John's online for a long, long time - at
least since we moved here a couple or three years ago.
I placed my order online about quarter to eight, and got an
email confirmation time stamped 7:48 (actually 20:40 Eastern
Time). But the confirmation indicated 88 minutes delivery time.
I thought that was outrageous - being more or less twice as long
as it had ever been before - same store, same delivery address,
but you know the Buffs were in town for a game the next day and
on a football weekend I figured: lot's of partying going on.
Of course 88 minutes came and went - no pizza. So at almost
10 o'clock - more than two hours after I placed the order and
40 minutes after the promised delivery time - I called the 877
number and told them I would be declining to pay for the pizza.
Now I bet you any other place in town would have appologized
profusely, comped me the pizza I had already ordered, and sent
me glorious special coupons and begged for the chance to
continue to serve. That's what I would have expected from any
place I hadn't traded with regularly for a very long time.
You see, delivery pizza is a service industry. The idea of
selling a nickel's worth of dough and a buck's worth of thin
sliced sausage for $11.99 is of course absurd. What they are
selling is the service. And when they screw up the service
they have thoroughly and royally screwed up.
But no. Papa John's said "We're canceling the charge right
now," and that was that.
But it wasn't that.
It is now Wednesday afternoon and the money still hasn't made
it's way back into my account. Papa John's won't fix it - and
their 877 number no longer will accept my calls. They grabbed
the money in an instant. Why can't they return it as quickly as
they took it?
Debit cards suck and so does Papa Johns.
From ser...@papajohnsonline.com Fri Oct 14 19:47:00 2005
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:48:14 -0400
From: ser...@papajohnsonline.com
To: eig...@io.com
Subject: Your Online Order has been Processed - Papa John's
pizza order 22281436 / Delivery (22281436)
Dear Lars Eighner,
Thank you for placing your Papa John's pizza order via our
Online Ordering service. Please find below, details of your
order:
Online Order Number: [22281436]
Order Type: [Delivery]
DELIVERY Date & Time: [88 Minutes]
Restaurant:
[Papa John's Store #934]
[7517 CAMERON RD]
[]
[AUSTIN, TX 78752-2057]
[(512) 302-9292]
Total including tax = $30.00
Method of Payment = CREDIT CARD
Thank you for choosing to order online with Papa John's pizza.
If you have any questions, please contact us at 1-877-547-7272
to speak with a customer service representative and refer to
Order #22281436. For questions regarding your order, please
call your local restaurant at (512) 302-9292 and reference order
number 1014/0112.
In the event that the restaurant has a question about your
order, or requires confirmation before your order is prepared,
we will attempt to contact you by telephone. If we are unable
to reach you by telephone, you will receive an e-mail
notification from a Papa John's customer service representative.
Sincerely,
Papa John's Online
2005 Papa John's International, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
**This email was sent to: eig...@io.com
From ser...@papajohnsonline.com Fri Oct 14 22:26:20 2005
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:51:19 -0400
From: ser...@papajohnsonline.com
To: eig...@io.com
Subject: Re: Papa John's Online Order #22281436
Dear Valued Papa John's Online Customer,
We have been trying to contact you via phone regarding your
recent Online Order, however, we have been unable to reach you.
Unfortunately, we will be unable to process your order at this
time. Please feel free to contact your local restaurant or call
our Customer Service hotline at 1-877-547-7272 for further
information.
Amount refunded to Credit Card: $30.00
Card: xxxx
Reference #: 15
Sincerely,
Papa John's Online
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
bill van
Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
> Debit cards suck.
>
I've never figured out why they exist. I have never seen anyone do
anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
bill
Charles Bishop
[snip most of the tirade]
>
>It is now Wednesday afternoon and the money still hasn't made
>it's way back into my account. Papa John's won't fix it - and
>their 877 number no longer will accept my calls. They grabbed
>the money in an instant. Why can't they return it as quickly as
>they took it?
What does it mean that the 877 number will no longer take your calls? Does
it hang up on you before you can reach someone? If you call from another
phone number does it answer?
>
>Debit cards suck and so does Papa Johns.
I left this in for an additional, no charge, rant for you.
charles, won't have a debit card, don't really see how they are better (or
as good) as a credit card.
Greg Goss
>I'm about to launch in a tirade of major proportions, so here is
>the executive summary:
>
>Debit cards suck.
>
>They suck for the following reason (among other): When you
>present a debit card, the money is zapped from the available
>funds in a matter of seconds. But if for some reason the
>transaction needs to be reversed - that is, if the merchant
>has to refund your money, it takes days and days for you to
>get the money back in your available balance. Not only do you
>not have *that* money, but the charge keeps reposting every day
>until it expires or something, and counts against your debit
>card limit that day. That means you cannot spend your debit
>card limit elsewhere even if you have money to cover both the
>refunded amount and the new amount in your checking account.
>
>Papa John's sucks, too.
>
>--End Executive Summary
I've always wondered at the US implementation of the idea of debit
cards. In Canada, the dominant player in ATM cards moved into
groceries, upscale stores and eventually everywhere a full decade
ahead of the Americans. And it looks like the Americans are STILL
shaking the bugs out.
Back when I was with Canada Trust, debit card transactions, either
way, showed up in my account before I could get home to the internet.
Once Canada Trust got swallowed up by one of the big-five-banks, it
doesn't show spending OR deposits (haven't tried a reversal) for two
or three days in the detail line, though the summary line at the top
is current.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the charge keeps reposting". The
charge goes through immediately. I've never seen a repost of a
charge.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Bob Ward
wrote:
>I'm about to launch in a tirade of major proportions, so here is
>the executive summary:
>
>Debit cards suck.
>
>They suck for the following reason (among other): When you
>present a debit card, the money is zapped from the available
>funds in a matter of seconds. But if for some reason the
>transaction needs to be reversed - that is, if the merchant
>has to refund your money, it takes days and days for you to
>get the money back in your available balance. Not only do you
>not have *that* money, but the charge keeps reposting every day
>until it expires or something, and counts against your debit
>card limit that day. That means you cannot spend your debit
>card limit elsewhere even if you have money to cover both the
>refunded amount and the new amount in your checking account.
Whenever I've returned a purchase made with my debit card, I've had no
problem requestring and receiving a cash refund - that way they avoid
a second hit from the bank for the fees involved. They know the money
is in their posession at the time of the sale, unlike checks or credit
cards.
Bob Ward
Replacing lost cash is one...
Greg Goss
I seldom carry more than a few bucks in coins anymore. I've seldom
see anything I cannot do with debit, other than car parkades and bus
fare.
But that's Interac, where the service fee to the merchant is an order
of magnitude lower than either credit cards or US debit.
Nick Spalding
on Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:53:42 GMT:
The one time I had to get a refund on a debit card transaction they
would *only* give it to me in cash. It was a substantial amount too,
about EUR140.
--
Nick Spalding
Charlene
Greg Goss wrote:
> I seldom carry more than a few bucks in coins anymore. I've seldom
> see anything I cannot do with debit, other than car parkades and bus
> fare.
>
> But that's Interac, where the service fee to the merchant is an order
> of magnitude lower than either credit cards or US debit.
That's true - even taxis take Interac these days. Some private parkades
do as well, although often only on weekends (because of the time it
takes to process a bank card transaction).
I really like not having to carry cash around.
wd41
Lars Eighner
<ctbishop-191...@user-38lc0h2.dialup.mindspring.com>,
the lovely and talented Charles Bishop
broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
> In article <slrndldaj9....@goodwill.io.com>, Lars Eighner
><eig...@io.com> [tiraded]:
> [snip most of the tirade]
>>
>>It is now Wednesday afternoon and the money still hasn't made
>>it's way back into my account. Papa John's won't fix it - and
>>their 877 number no longer will accept my calls. They grabbed
>>the money in an instant. Why can't they return it as quickly as
>>they took it?
> What does it mean that the 877 number will no longer take your calls? Does
> it hang up on you before you can reach someone? If you call from another
> phone number does it answer?
Haven't tried from another number. They just click me off after
about 30 seconds of background ads when I hit number 2 (talk to
someone) on their phone automaze.
>>Debit cards suck and so does Papa Johns.
> I left this in for an additional, no charge, rant for you.
> charles, won't have a debit card, don't really see how they are better (or
> as good) as a credit card.
Well I thought they were good to begin with. No annual fee. No
paper checks. Use them where you can use cash or can't use cash
conveniently (some airport payphones, web, etc.) I never used
credit cards for credit when I had them (i.e. paid them off
immediately each month) and actually found them rather annoying
- one more paper bill to write a paper check, one more stamp,
one more trip to the mail box. I really wanted something like a
debit card - no check approval nonsense at every store.
And for a while I was pretty happy with debit cards - mostly the
no annual fee stuff - and so I disposed of the credit cards -
which really offered a service I never needed or wanted.
Then a friend had an unpleasant discovery: You can get
overdrawn with a debit card. I didn't think that was possible.
I thought if your account didn't cover a charge, the card would
be declined. Well, I haven't overdrawn my account since I was
in college, some mumblty-mumble years ago -- although I look
much younger than that. But it was disquieting. I am
absent-minded, I could make a mistake, and recently my brother
gave me a hot check to settle our mother's estate, etc. So it
is conceivable that I could overdraw my account with knowing I
was doing so, and I went over my friend's paper to be sure what
he said happened had indeed happened. And it had. They had
approved a debit card transaction that left him overdrawn and
then they piled on the overdraft charges just like a paper
check.
Now this reversal thing is coming up. If you go to a store and
write a paper check and the management admits there is a mistake
they can just tear up the check - or return it to you to tear
up. But if you pay with a debit card, they say they cannot do
anything. It's the "our computer system won't let us kind of
thing."
Maybe there is some subliminal message in Ipods and cell phones
so if you belong to the electronic generation, the messages have
convinced you that this is all acceptable. Or something.
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
- A.J. Muste
Lars Eighner
and talented Greg Goss broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
> I'm not sure what you mean by "the charge keeps reposting". The
> charge goes through immediately. I've never seen a repost of a
> charge.
When it first posts, it becomes a "pending" charge that day,
reducing the available balance and counting against the daily
card limit. But every day there after it is reposted with the
new days date - that doesn't reduce the available balance
anymore than it did the first day (the previous day's "pending"
expired and was replaced by the new "pending" in the same
amount) but it counts against the new day's card limit.
If it had been paid off the first day, it wouldn't count against
the card limit the second day - or any subsequent days. But
because it is "pending," it counts against the card limit every
day it is pending.
We are talking about deposited funds here. Not credit. Most
debit cards have a daily card limit - even when you have
sufficient funds. Evidently this is to keep you crack ho
in-laws from running away with the card. And the limit is
really large enough that you are not likely to bump it just
going around town. But if you buy some furniture one day, some
clothes another day, and then try to buy some electronics, you
could easily bump into the limit - not because you have exceeded
your limit on any one day and not because your funds are
insufficient, but because your pending charges from a couple of
days ago are still counting against your daily limit today.
Pending charges are sort of like virtual particles so far as I
can tell.
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
"With a heavy dose of fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects,
I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them"
-- Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman
Lars Eighner
<hpcdl1pb1svvqu4ri...@4ax.com>,
the lovely and talented Nick Spalding
broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
How's the EUR doing these days. I'm still in print in Germany.
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
While seeking revenge, dig two graves - one for yourself.
- Doug Horton
bill van
Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
Not sure what you mean by that. When I'm short of cash I can either
use my credit card to pay for purchases, or stop by the nearest ATM,
where I used my credit card and pin number to take cash out of my bank
account.
bill
Lars Eighner
<1129757458.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Carl
broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
> Lars Eighner wrote:
>> I'm about to launch in a tirade of major proportions, so here is
>> the executive summary:
>>
>> Debit cards suck.
><snip suckage>
>> Papa John's sucks, too.
><snip tale of suckage>
>> You see, delivery pizza is a service industry. The idea of
>> selling a nickel's worth of dough and a buck's worth of thin
>> sliced sausage for $11.99 is of course absurd. What they are
>> selling is the service. And when they screw up the service
>> they have thoroughly and royally screwed up.
>>
>> But no. Papa John's said "We're canceling the charge right
>> now," and that was that.
>>
>> But it wasn't that.
><snip audit trail>
> According to the BBB, you got a bad one. That franchise does not
> respond to complaints.
> http://www.centraltx.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=61907
> However, if you have some free minutes, you might make contact with
> Ms. Susan Rector at 502-261-7272 (or FAX 502-261-4416)
> or
> or
> bbb.org and search for "Papa John's International".
> Except for one case, I've always had excellent results with the contact
> information from the BBB.
> Of course, after you get your money back, you might decide to help them
> out with some "bumvertising" (www.bumvertising.com).
Does any one have John Schnatter's home number/email?
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
Lars Eighner
<billvan-F103D1...@news.telus.net>,
the lovely and talented bill van
broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
I tried to do that once, but discovered what I'd actually done
was get a cash advance -- when of course I had the amount in my
account. Ouch.
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
bill van
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> bill van <bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <slrndldaj9....@goodwill.io.com>,
> > Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Debit cards suck.
> >>
> >
> >I've never figured out why they exist. I have never seen anyone do
> >anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
> >purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
>
> I seldom carry more than a few bucks in coins anymore. I've seldom
> see anything I cannot do with debit, other than car parkades and bus
> fare.
Where do you get the coins? I get mine in change when I pay for things
with bills.
> But that's Interac, where the service fee to the merchant is an order
> of magnitude lower than either credit cards or US debit.
I'm entering my curmudgeonly years, but I get a little irritated when
the person ahead of me at the coffee counter uses a debit card to pay
for a small purchase and holds the line up for a minute and a half
entering a bunch of numbers, getting it wrong a couple of times,
waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
small-purchase retailing.
bill
'
Greg Goss
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>> I seldom carry more than a few bucks in coins anymore. I've seldom
>> see anything I cannot do with debit, other than car parkades and bus
>> fare.
>
>I'm entering my curmudgeonly years, but I get a little irritated when
>the person ahead of me at the coffee counter uses a debit card to pay
>for a small purchase and holds the line up for a minute and a half
>entering a bunch of numbers, getting it wrong a couple of times,
>waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
>would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
>small-purchase retailing.
If the guy ahead of you would use his card more, he would be more
practised and would get his passcode right the first try.
A company called "dexit" was trying to take over the very-small
purchase niche in Toronto. I don't know how far they got. Like the
gas-station dongles, you just had to tap the key-chain dongle on the
payment pad - no password. But the buyer pays a surcharge to refill
your dexit. I never got one, but if I were picking up a coffee at the
subway station every day, I probably would.
Lars Eighner
<billvan-52420A...@news.telus.net>,
broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
> In article <3rnqabF...@individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
Beats the hell out of having them write a check.
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
Greg Goss
>In our last episode, <3rnpugF...@individual.net>, the lovely
>and talented Greg Goss broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
>
>> I'm not sure what you mean by "the charge keeps reposting". The
>> charge goes through immediately. I've never seen a repost of a
>> charge.
>
>When it first posts, it becomes a "pending" charge that day,
>reducing the available balance and counting against the daily
>card limit. But every day there after it is reposted with the
>new days date - that doesn't reduce the available balance
>anymore than it did the first day (the previous day's "pending"
>expired and was replaced by the new "pending" in the same
>amount) but it counts against the new day's card limit.
>If it had been paid off the first day, it wouldn't count against
>the card limit the second day - or any subsequent days. But
>because it is "pending," it counts against the card limit every
>day it is pending.
>
>We are talking about deposited funds here. Not credit. Most
>debit cards have a daily card limit - even when you have
>sufficient funds. Evidently this is to keep you crack ho
>in-laws from running away withs the card. And the limit is
>really large enough that you are not likely to bump it just
>going around town. But if you buy some furniture one day, some
>clothes another day, and then try to buy some electronics, you
>could easily bump into the limit - not because you have exceeded
>your limit on any one day and not because your funds are
>insufficient, but because your pending charges from a couple of
>days ago are still counting against your daily limit today.
>Pending charges are sort of like virtual particles so far as I
>can tell.
Weird. My (Canadian - Interac) debit card posts once to the account,
and it's done with. No effect on subsequent days. Our daily limit
really is a daily limit. I've withdrawn my limit before Toronto
midnight and again after midnight once when I wanted more cash.
That was with the ATM, but the line between ATM card and debit card is
very blurry up here.
It sounds like the US still has a way to go in perfecting their
version of these cards. A daily limit should affect the purchases on
that day. The whole idea of debit cards is that nothing is pending.
My bank suggested that since I never make major purchases on my care,
I might want to chop the daily limit way down. I can always phone in
to raise it or to authorize a single payment/withdrawal. So I have a
limit of $200 or $400 or some such on my debit card.
bill van
Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
> In our last episode,
> <billvan-F103D1...@news.telus.net>,
> the lovely and talented bill van
> broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
>
> > In article <2jcdl1pj794hfnvd8...@4ax.com>,
> > Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:36:36 GMT, bill van
> >> <bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <slrndldaj9....@goodwill.io.com>,
> >> > Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Debit cards suck.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I've never figured out why they exist. I have never seen anyone do
> >> >anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
> >> >purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
> >> >
> >> >bill
> >>
> >> Replacing lost cash is one...
>
> > Not sure what you mean by that. When I'm short of cash I can either
> > use my credit card to pay for purchases, or stop by the nearest ATM,
> > where I used my credit card and pin number to take cash out of my bank
> > account.
>
> I tried to do that once, but discovered what I'd actually done
> was get a cash advance -- when of course I had the amount in my
> account. Ouch.
My bank's ATM interface asks where you want to take the cash from --
credit card, however many accounts you have, line of credit, etc. I
routinely use my credit card to take cash from my bank account. The
bank provides a "convenience card" for that kind of transaction, but I
try to minimize the number of cards I stuff in my wallet, and the
credit card will do everything the convenience card does, plus its own
job.
bill
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>
>But no. Papa John's said "We're canceling the charge right
>now," and that was that.
>
>But it wasn't that.
>
>It is now Wednesday afternoon and the money still hasn't made
>it's way back into my account. Papa John's won't fix it - and
>their 877 number no longer will accept my calls. They grabbed
>the money in an instant. Why can't they return it as quickly as
>they took it?
>
>Debit cards suck and so does Papa Johns.
Take it to your bank. They should restore the money while this is
going on. You have evidence of the promise of a refund and no refund
credited.
Does the debit have a Visa or MC logo on it? That usually gives you
some leverage that a plain vanilla & limited debit card will not have
These places process debit transactions in ways that benefit them,
such as you describe - pay to them right away, pay to you & they take
their time in batch filing.
Still, there was no way to refund cash by email, which would have been
beneficial to them
I hate to sound like a codger, but emailing for pizza is beyond my
ken.
Boron
art...@yahoo.com
Lars Eighner wrote:
> Papa John's sucks, too.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28891
(well, except for your end of course)
Bob Ward
<bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
>In article <2jcdl1pj794hfnvd8...@4ax.com>,
> Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:36:36 GMT, bill van
>> <bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <slrndldaj9....@goodwill.io.com>,
>> > Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> Debit cards suck.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I've never figured out why they exist. I have never seen anyone do
>> >anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
>> >purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
>> >
>> >bill
>>
>> Replacing lost cash is one...
>
>Not sure what you mean by that. When I'm short of cash I can either
>use my credit card to pay for purchases, or stop by the nearest ATM,
>where I used my credit card and pin number to take cash out of my bank
>account.
>
>bill
When Lars is walking around with $300 in small bills and he gets his
pocket picked, who is going to replace the money?
If I'm walking around with my debit card, and it gets lost, I'm not
responsible for any bogus charges - even if someone uses it at a gas
station as a credit card - so long as I report the loss in a timely
fashion.
Scott P
wrote:
>
>Debit cards suck.
They are ridiculous and I have no idea why someone would use one.
There is no added convenience for the consumer. the only ones who
benefit are the banks and the merchants. That's why they have to
advertise them so much. Its the only way to convince people they are
a good idea and you should have one.
Like every rule, there is one exception, however, the only time I
could see the value of a debit card is if you had a child or wife or
husband whose spending you wanted to control. That's really the only
reason.
Scott
Scott P
Are you confusing an ATM card with a Debit card? ATM cards are A-OK.
Debit cards suck.
Scott
Greg Goss
Up here, they're the same thing. Our debit card system was built by
the guys with the biggest ATM network.
bill van
Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
That makes theoretical sense. In practice, though, I'm 57 years old
and have never been robbed, had my pocket picked or lost a wallet, a
credit card or a wad of cash. So that provides no motivation for me to
acquire another card.
My credit card is also protected against bogus charges, BTW, if I
promptly report its loss or theft. Again, no need for a debit card.
bill
Patrick M Geahan
> They are ridiculous and I have no idea why someone would use one.
I have access to my cash without carrying all of it around.
I can go out for an evening on the town without carrying a wallet
stuffed with cash.
And more importantly - debit cards offer two-factor authentication
instead of just one. In order to spend my money, you have to have
my card *and* my PIN. With cash, you just have to have my cash.
--
-------Patrick M Geahan---...@thepatcave.org---ICQ:3784715------
"You know, this is how the sum total of human knowledge is increased.
Not with idle speculation and meaningless chatter, but with a
medium-sized hammer and some free time." - spa...@pffcu.com, a.f.c-a
Bob Ward
Actually, that's about 100% wrong.
Debit cards are convenient if you want to track your small
expenditures, but (as Lars pointed out) they will do NOTHING to help
you control spending - yours or an irresponsible spouse or offspring.
Bob Ward
No, but you seem to be confused.
Bob Ward
The advantage to me is that I can track all my expenses easily,
accounting for every purchase, without worrying about paying the bill
at some future date to avoid interest charges.
I'm not trying to convince you to change your spending habits, nor am
I asking you to approve of mine.
Mikko Peltoniemi
> Take it to your bank. They should restore the money while this is
> going on. You have evidence of the promise of a refund and no refund
> credited.
Depends on the bank. My CC didn't do that, I think I posted about
it earlier this year.
Surprisingly, I have an experience with PJs, and a credit card too.
I got some pizza, picked it up myself. (I like doing it that way,
if I can) Paid it with a CC. Everything went fine. I did notice
though that the receipt had very weird things on it. Like the
franchise address was something like 0000 Any Street, Anytown, NY
or something like that.
So the manager of the franchise calls me later. There was a problem
with the CC charge. I checked my records first, made sure that the
charge really hadn't gone through, and since it hadn't I agreed
to let him do another charge.
Well, long story short, that was about two months ago, and neither
of the charges still appear on my card...
--
Mikko Peltoniemi
Film & Video Editor, Avid Technician at large.
http://www.discountcadavers.com
Mikko Peltoniemi
> waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
> would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
> small-purchase retailing.
Oh yeah, paying with cash is very simple and quick, especially at
Wendy's. (I actually pay with a card nowadays at Wendy's. Works much
quicker)
Mikko Peltoniemi
> where I used my credit card and pin number to take cash out of my bank
> account.
Thanks for subsidising my 0% CC rate!
John Hatpin
>Scott P <qui...@REMVOETIHSix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:54:17 GMT, Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:36:36 GMT, bill van
>>><bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <slrndldaj9....@goodwill.io.com>,
>>>> Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Debit cards suck.
>>>>
>>>>I've never figured out why they exist. I have never seen anyone do
>>>>anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
>>>>purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
>>>
>>>Replacing lost cash is one...
>>
>>Are you confusing an ATM card with a Debit card? ATM cards are A-OK.
>>Debit cards suck.
>
>Up here, they're the same thing. Our debit card system was built by
>the guys with the biggest ATM network.
In the UK, debit and credit cards have doubled as ATM cards for many
years. I'm 45, and I don't ever remember having either a debit or
credit card that wouldn't pull cash out of the wall.
--
John Hatpin
Email (ROT-13): wsubcxva NG tznvy.pbz
Greg Goss
Depending on the account that the card is attached to, you can't spend
cash that isn't there. Control the income to the account and you
control the outgo.
Kevin
wrote:
>In our last episode, <3rnpugF...@individual.net>, the lovely
>and talented Greg Goss broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
>
>> I'm not sure what you mean by "the charge keeps reposting". The
>> charge goes through immediately. I've never seen a repost of a
>> charge.
>
>When it first posts, it becomes a "pending" charge that day,
>reducing the available balance and counting against the daily
>card limit. But every day there after it is reposted with the
>new days date - that doesn't reduce the available balance
>anymore than it did the first day (the previous day's "pending"
>expired and was replaced by the new "pending" in the same
>amount) but it counts against the new day's card limit.
>If it had been paid off the first day, it wouldn't count against
>the card limit the second day - or any subsequent days. But
>because it is "pending," it counts against the card limit every
>day it is pending.
>
>We are talking about deposited funds here. Not credit. Most
>debit cards have a daily card limit - even when you have
>sufficient funds. Evidently this is to keep you crack ho
>in-laws from running away with the card. And the limit is
>really large enough that you are not likely to bump it just
>going around town. But if you buy some furniture one day, some
>clothes another day, and then try to buy some electronics, you
>could easily bump into the limit - not because you have exceeded
>your limit on any one day and not because your funds are
>insufficient, but because your pending charges from a couple of
>days ago are still counting against your daily limit today.
>Pending charges are sort of like virtual particles so far as I
>can tell.
My debit card has a limit option; I can specify if I want a limit on
the card, or not. If I say 'no limit' and I'm late in reporting a
stolen card and a lot of money is put on the stolen card before I
report it, it will, I am told, take longer to get my money back.
--
Kevin
bill van
Mikko Peltoniemi <mikk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> bill van wrote:
>
> > where I used my credit card and pin number to take cash out of my bank
> > account.
>
> Thanks for subsidising my 0% CC rate!
Not me. I pay the card down before interest kicks in, and I don't pay
transaction fees as part of a service package I have with my bank. But
we're not talking about cash advances on the credit card. I merely use
the credit card to gain access to my bank account.
bill
bill van
Mikko Peltoniemi <mikk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> bill van wrote:
>
> > waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
> > would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
> > small-purchase retailing.
>
> Oh yeah, paying with cash is very simple and quick, especially at
> Wendy's. (I actually pay with a card nowadays at Wendy's. Works much
> quicker)
I'm not sure I've ever eaten at a Wendy's, but I do buy fast food from
time to time. I don't know of any place where cash would be slower
than a debit card.
bill
bill van
Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
Fine. It's not like I stay awake at night worrying about debit cards.
I have no need for them, and I am sometimes mildly annoyed when they
slow down the lineup where I buy my coffee. I understand some people
find them handy, but their reasons are not compelling for me. No big
deal.
bill
Lars Eighner
<3rol43F...@individual.net>,
broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
> Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
That's what I thought. But in fact, you can overdraw an account
with a debit card.
Bob Ward
<mikk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>bill van wrote:
>
>> waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
>> would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
>> small-purchase retailing.
>
>Oh yeah, paying with cash is very simple and quick, especially at
>Wendy's. (I actually pay with a card nowadays at Wendy's. Works much
>quicker)
Are you willing to pay an additional 85 cents or so for the
convenience? I'm not.
Bob Ward
One would think this was the case. Unfortunately, US banks can and
will let you spend cash that isn't there, and hit you with a
substantial overdraft fee in the process.
Bob Ward
<bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
Perhaps you should switch to decaf. Using a debit card with a PIN
doesn't take as long as a cashier being forced to count back change.
Do you get pissy about those who don't use exact change? What if THEY
take a couple of extra seconds to count out the coins?
bill van
Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:26:37 GMT, bill van
> <bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <sf2el19cilgas74sv...@4ax.com>,
> > Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not trying to convince you to change your spending habits, nor am
> >> I asking you to approve of mine.
> >
> >Fine. It's not like I stay awake at night worrying about debit cards.
> >I have no need for them, and I am sometimes mildly annoyed when they
> >slow down the lineup where I buy my coffee. I understand some people
> >find them handy, but their reasons are not compelling for me. No big
> >deal.
> >
> >bill
>
> Perhaps you should switch to decaf.
Oh. I thought we were both being agreeable about this not being a big
deal. My mistake.
> Using a debit card with a PIN
> doesn't take as long as a cashier being forced to count back change.
That's not my experience.
> Do you get pissy about those who don't use exact change?
No. Why do you ask?
> What if THEY
> take a couple of extra seconds to count out the coins?
Not a problem. Why are you so exercised about this?
bill
Ulo Melton
I think it relates to Mikko's Wendy's experience of a few months back:
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.cecil-adams/msg/64d836304dce52ed?dmode=source&hl=en>
--
Ulo Melton
http://www.sewergator.com - Your Pipeline To Adventure
"Show me a man who is not afraid of being eaten by an alligator
in a sewer, and I'll show you a fool." -Roger Ebert
Bill Turlock
>
> In article <3rnqabF...@individual.net>,> > >In article <slrndldaj9....@goodwill.io.com>,
> > >anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
> > >purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
> >
> > see anything I cannot do with debit, other than car parkades and bus
> > fare.
>
> Where do you get the coins? I get mine in change when I pay for things
> with bills.
>
> > But that's Interac, where the service fee to the merchant is an order
> > of magnitude lower than either credit cards or US debit.
>
> I'm entering my curmudgeonly years, but I get a little irritated when
> the person ahead of me at the coffee counter uses a debit card to pay
> for a small purchase and holds the line up for a minute and a half
> entering a bunch of numbers, getting it wrong a couple of times,
> waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc.,
all the while talking on his cell phone!
>when paying cash
> would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
> small-purchase retailing.
>
> bill
> '
Greg Goss
I've only ever seen a debit surcharge twice in twelve years or so of
using the card. And those were 25 cents and thirty cents. We often
see a $5 minimum purchase to use debit. The Canadian debit system has
no rules against minimum purchases. When I was talking to a small
hardware store owner in 96 or so, he said that the debit transaction
charge was 30 cents for any size of purchase.
Again, the US design for debit seems to have problems.
Greg Goss
>>>Debit cards are convenient if you want to track your small
>>>expenditures, but (as Lars pointed out) they will do NOTHING to help
>>>you control spending - yours or an irresponsible spouse or offspring.
>
>> Depending on the account that the card is attached to, you can't spend
>> cash that isn't there. Control the income to the account and you
>> control the outgo.
>
>That's what I thought. But in fact, you can overdraw an account
>with a debit card.
You couldn't on mine, back when mine was attached to an ordinary
account. Yours was probably attached to an account with overdraft
"protection" which means that the overdraft limit is still "available"
when the debit transaction is authorized. My account didn't have that
"protection".
bill van
Ulo Melton <melt...@sewergator.com> wrote:
> bill van wrote:
>
> >In article <3roht9F...@individual.net>,
> > Mikko Peltoniemi <mikk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> bill van wrote:
> >>
> >> > waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
> >> > would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
> >> > small-purchase retailing.
> >>
> >> Oh yeah, paying with cash is very simple and quick, especially at
> >> Wendy's. (I actually pay with a card nowadays at Wendy's. Works much
> >> quicker)
> >
> >I'm not sure I've ever eaten at a Wendy's, but I do buy fast food from
> >time to time. I don't know of any place where cash would be slower
> >than a debit card.
>
> I think it relates to Mikko's Wendy's experience of a few months back:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.cecil-adams/msg/64d836304dce52ed?dmode
> =source&hl=en>
Right, I remember that post. That wasn't a problem with cash. It was a
problem with an idiot at the cashier.
I do that kind of thing all the time -- hand over a bill and x amount
of change, so as to make the return change really simple after the
employee rings it into the register. The person at the cashier doesn't
get befuddled more than once every five years or so.
I suspect Mikko's Wendy's employee would have fouled up whatever kind
of payment he chose.
bill
Nick Spalding
on Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:49:36 -0500:
> In our last episode,
> <hpcdl1pb1svvqu4ri...@4ax.com>,
> the lovely and talented Nick Spalding
> broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
>
> > Bob Ward wrote, in <pdcdl1l99r9v5b2cp...@4ax.com>
> > on Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:53:42 GMT:
>
> >> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:22:22 -0500, Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I'm about to launch in a tirade of major proportions, so here is
> >> >the executive summary:
> >> >
> >> >Debit cards suck.
> >> >
> >> >They suck for the following reason (among other): When you
> >> >present a debit card, the money is zapped from the available
> >> >funds in a matter of seconds. But if for some reason the
> >> >transaction needs to be reversed - that is, if the merchant
> >> >has to refund your money, it takes days and days for you to
> >> >get the money back in your available balance. Not only do you
> >> >not have *that* money, but the charge keeps reposting every day
> >> >until it expires or something, and counts against your debit
> >> >card limit that day. That means you cannot spend your debit
> >> >card limit elsewhere even if you have money to cover both the
> >> >refunded amount and the new amount in your checking account.
> >>
> >> Whenever I've returned a purchase made with my debit card, I've had no
> >> problem requestring and receiving a cash refund - that way they avoid
> >> a second hit from the bank for the fees involved. They know the money
> >> is in their posession at the time of the sale, unlike checks or credit
> >> cards.
>
> > The one time I had to get a refund on a debit card transaction they
> > would *only* give it to me in cash. It was a substantial amount too,
> > about EUR140.
>
> How's the EUR doing these days. I'm still in print in Germany.
As of yesterday it was worth ~$1.20.
--
Nick Spalding
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>In our last episode,
><3rol43F...@individual.net>,
>the lovely and talented Greg Goss
>broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
>
>
>> Depending on the account that the card is attached to, you can't spend
>> cash that isn't there. Control the income to the account and you
>> control the outgo.
>
>That's what I thought. But in fact, you can overdraw an account
>with a debit card.
That can be the function of two things...the way the bank sets up the
account (some go out of their way to allow overdrafts & make money
charging you for them, or sweeping them into a credit card account) or
the way the debit payments are processed, that is, in real time or in
batches at a later time.
Boron
Boron Elgar
>On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:34:24 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>>Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:35:56 GMT, Scott P
>>><qui...@REMVOETIHSix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:22:22 -0500, Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com>
>>>>wrot
>>
>>Depending on the account that the card is attached to, you can't spend
>>cash that isn't there. Control the income to the account and you
>>control the outgo.
>
>One would think this was the case. Unfortunately, US banks can and
>will let you spend cash that isn't there, and hit you with a
>substantial overdraft fee in the process.
People have been kiting checks, pre-dating them, post-dating them &
passing rubber ones for a long time. Same diff. If you do not keep
track of your balance by your own expenditure record (not what shows
up online or at the ATM), you can overdraw.
Boron
Boron Elgar
<mikk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>> Take it to your bank. They should restore the money while this is
>> going on. You have evidence of the promise of a refund and no refund
>> credited.
>
>Depends on the bank. My CC didn't do that, I think I posted about
>it earlier this year.
Credit cards and debit accounts can be covered by very different regs
and policies.
Boron
Patrick M Geahan
> Right, I remember that post. That wasn't a problem with cash. It was a
> problem with an idiot at the cashier.
Which is an inherent problem with cash(unless you're using bill-readers,
which would be even slower)
If I pay with debit, the counter guy has to do nothing but read the
screen for "Transaction Approved" and, maybe give me some change. But
that change is always in nice even bills, so it's easy for the counter
person to give out.
--
-------Patrick M Geahan---...@thepatcave.org---ICQ:3784715------
"You know, this is how the sum total of human knowledge is increased.
Not with idle speculation and meaningless chatter, but with a
medium-sized hammer and some free time." - spa...@pffcu.com, a.f.c-a
Rose
"Ulo Melton" <melt...@sewergator.com> wrote in message
news:94del1p00u1hnsi9o...@4ax.com...
: bill van wrote:
:
:: > Mikko Peltoniemi <mikk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: >
: >> Oh yeah, paying with cash is very simple and quick, especially at
: >> Wendy's. (I actually pay with a card nowadays at Wendy's. Works much
: >> quicker)
: >
: >I'm not sure I've ever eaten at a Wendy's, but I do buy fast food from
: >time to time. I don't know of any place where cash would be slower
: >than a debit card.
:
: I think it relates to Mikko's Wendy's experience of a few months back:
:
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.cecil-adams/msg/64d836304dce52ed?dmode=source&hl=en>
:
Another fun Wendy's experience.
http://rightwinglunatic.blogspot.com/2005/09/more-on-restaurants-that-suck.html
--
Rose (w/o the Briar)
Rose
"Ulo Melton" <melt...@sewergator.com> wrote in message
news:94del1p00u1hnsi9o...@4ax.com...
: bill van wrote:
:
: >In article <3roht9F...@individual.net>,
: > Mikko Peltoniemi <mikk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: >
: >> Oh yeah, paying with cash is very simple and quick, especially at
: >> Wendy's. (I actually pay with a card nowadays at Wendy's. Works much
: >> quicker)
: >
: >I'm not sure I've ever eaten at a Wendy's, but I do buy fast food from
: >time to time. I don't know of any place where cash would be slower
: >than a debit card.
:
: I think it relates to Mikko's Wendy's experience of a few months back:
:
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.cecil-adams/msg/64d836304dce52ed?dmode=source&hl=en>
:
Another fun Wendy's story.
http://rightwinglunatic.blogspot.com/2005/09/more-on-restaurants-that-suck.html
--
Rose (w/o the Briar)
ra...@westnet.poe.com
> >Are you confusing an ATM card with a Debit card? ATM cards are A-OK.
> >Debit cards suck.
> Up here, they're the same thing. Our debit card system was built by
> the guys with the biggest ATM network.
Down here too. I have no idea WTF Scott is going on about.
John
--
Remove the dead poet to e-mail, tho CC'd posts are unwelcome.
Mean People Suck - It takes two deviations to get cool.
Ask me about joining the NRA.
ra...@westnet.poe.com
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:22:22 -0500, Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com>
> >Debit cards suck.
> They are ridiculous and I have no idea why someone would use one.
Not having access to credit cards and not wanting to use cash fro
everything would be a good reason.
> There is no added convenience for the consumer.
Except, you know, being able to do credit car like things without having a
credit card.
<snip>
> Like every rule, there is one exception, however, the only time I
> could see the value of a debit card is if you had a child or wife or
> husband whose spending you wanted to control. That's really the only
> reason.
Sadly, irresponsibility with money is something that goes way beyond
children, wives or husbands: many people can't controll thier own
spending and find that credit cards are a trap for thier own
impulsiveness.
Greg Goss
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>> Scott P <qui...@REMVOETIHSix.netcom.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> >Are you confusing an ATM card with a Debit card? ATM cards are A-OK.
>> >Debit cards suck.
>
>> Up here, they're the same thing. Our debit card system was built by
>> the guys with the biggest ATM network.
>
>Down here too. I have no idea WTF Scott is going on about.
I thought that your debit system was built by the credit card guys,
not the ATM guys? Up here, ATM/credit card combos work in ATMs, but
for debit card purchases, it only works if the card does NOT have a
credit card coded into it.
Our "interac" network corresponds, I think, to your "PLUS" network,
except that Interac has essentially 100% penetration of the ATM
market.
Our debit cards cannot be used for internet or phone orders. The
merchant must be presented with the actual card. I don't know if the
card can be entered by keypad - I think it must be swiped. When debit
is used for pizza or cab fare, the merchant brings a cell-phone based
card-reader machine.
Bill Kinkaid
>Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
>
>>and talented Greg Goss broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
>>
>>> charge goes through immediately. I've never seen a repost of a
>>> charge.
>>
>>When it first posts, it becomes a "pending" charge that day,
>>reducing the available balance and counting against the daily
>>card limit. But every day there after it is reposted with the
>>new days date - that doesn't reduce the available balance
>>anymore than it did the first day (the previous day's "pending"
>>expired and was replaced by the new "pending" in the same
>>amount) but it counts against the new day's card limit.
>>If it had been paid off the first day, it wouldn't count against
>>the card limit the second day - or any subsequent days. But
>>because it is "pending," it counts against the card limit every
>>day it is pending.
>>
>>We are talking about deposited funds here. Not credit. Most
>>debit cards have a daily card limit - even when you have
>>sufficient funds. Evidently this is to keep you crack ho
>>really large enough that you are not likely to bump it just
>>going around town. But if you buy some furniture one day, some
>>clothes another day, and then try to buy some electronics, you
>>could easily bump into the limit - not because you have exceeded
>>your limit on any one day and not because your funds are
>>insufficient, but because your pending charges from a couple of
>>days ago are still counting against your daily limit today.
>>Pending charges are sort of like virtual particles so far as I
>>can tell.
>
>and it's done with. No effect on subsequent days. Our daily limit
>really is a daily limit. I've withdrawn my limit before Toronto
>midnight and again after midnight once when I wanted more cash.
>That was with the ATM, but the line between ATM card and debit card is
>very blurry up here.
>
>It sounds like the US still has a way to go in perfecting their
>version of these cards. A daily limit should affect the purchases on
>that day. The whole idea of debit cards is that nothing is pending.
>
>My bank suggested that since I never make major purchases on my care,
>I might want to chop the daily limit way down. I can always phone in
>to raise it or to authorize a single payment/withdrawal. So I have a
>limit of $200 or $400 or some such on my debit card.
And the daily limit only refers to cash withdrawals (i.e. little
pieces of paper with pictures of the Queen on them) from the machine,
doesn't it? If you're using it in a store to buy something, the only
limit is how much is in your account.
--
Bill in Vancouver
Greg Goss
It wasn't so in 96 or so when I bought my first laptop. I had to run
off to a branch of my bank and come back with cash because the card
had a $1K limit on it.
xho...@gmail.com
> anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
> purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
How about things you do with a credit card but not with a debit card?
Like, carry yet another card. Or dig through all the junk mail to find the
credit card bill, dig through all the junk mail inside the credit card bill
envelope to find the bill, fill out the check, figure out how much postage
has increased since last time you mailed something, find some stamps, send
in the payment, wait for the cc company to say they didn't receive it, etc.
Xho
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB
bill van
wrote:
> bill van <bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrndldaj9....@goodwill.io.com>,
> > Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Debit cards suck.
> > >
> >
> > I've never figured out why they exist. I have never seen anyone do
> > anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
> > purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
>
> How about things you do with a credit card but not with a debit card?
> Like, carry yet another card.
The one card I carry to pay for things is my credit card. So it's
hardly "yet another" card. It's the only card.
> Or dig through all the junk mail to find the
> credit card bill, dig through all the junk mail inside the credit card bill
> envelope to find the bill,
This takes me about 30 seconds a month. It's pretty easy to identify
the envelopes from my bank -- they have its name on them -- and it
takes only seconds to glance down the list of transactions to see if
there's anything there that shouldn't be.
> fill out the check, figure out how much postage
> has increased since last time you mailed something, find some stamps, send
> in the payment, wait for the cc company to say they didn't receive it, etc.
None of the above. I do this electronically once or twice a month at
my bank's ATM -- transfer money from a bank account to pay down the
credit card. Again, it takes only seconds and I do it at the same time
I deposit any checks I have received and take out cash.
I could do the transfer online but I don't bother because I can't
deposit checks or take out cash online, so I do it all on the ATM.
>
> Xho
bill
Greg Goss
>How about things you do with a credit card but not with a debit card?
>Like, carry yet another card. Or dig through all the junk mail to find the
>credit card bill, dig through all the junk mail inside the credit card bill
>envelope to find the bill, fill out the check, figure out how much postage
>has increased since last time you mailed something, find some stamps, send
>in the payment, wait for the cc company to say they didn't receive it, etc.
I look up my credit card balance on the internet. I pay it using
either the "bill payment" process in my bank, or using the "account
transfer" process. For my wife's credit card at another bank, the
"bill payment" process is still free and easy. I hate having to mail
cheques, and haven't used a cheque to pay a credit card since sometime
in the middle nineties.
Les Albert
>bill van <bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
>> In article <slrndldaj9....@goodwill.io.com>,
>> Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Debit cards suck.
>> I've never figured out why they exist. I have never seen anyone do
>> anything with a debit card that I can't do with cash for small
>> purchases or a credit card for larger ones.
>How about things you do with a credit card but not with a debit card?
>Like, carry yet another card. Or dig through all the junk mail to find the
>credit card bill, dig through all the junk mail inside the credit card bill
>envelope to find the bill, fill out the check, figure out how much postage
>has increased since last time you mailed something, find some stamps, send
>in the payment, wait for the cc company to say they didn't receive it, etc.
Life is hard.
Les
Scott P
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>> Scott P <qui...@REMVOETIHSix.netcom.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> >Are you confusing an ATM card with a Debit card? ATM cards are A-OK.
>> >Debit cards suck.
>
>> Up here, they're the same thing. Our debit card system was built by
>> the guys with the biggest ATM network.
>
>Down here too. I have no idea WTF Scott is going on about.
>
>
I have a card in my wallet that is an ATM card. I can use it in any
ATM to get cash from my account. It's not a debit card or a check
card. I couldn't use it in, say, a store even if I wanted to. I know
I can't be the only person who has one of these.
Scott
Scott P
>On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:35:56 GMT, Scott P
><qui...@REMVOETIHSix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:22:22 -0500, Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Debit cards suck.
>>
>>
>>They are ridiculous and I have no idea why someone would use one.
>>There is no added convenience for the consumer. the only ones who
>>benefit are the banks and the merchants. That's why they have to
>>advertise them so much. Its the only way to convince people they are
>>a good idea and you should have one.
>>
>>Like every rule, there is one exception, however, the only time I
>>could see the value of a debit card is if you had a child or wife or
>>husband whose spending you wanted to control. That's really the only
>>reason.
>>
>>Scott
>
>
>Actually, that's about 100% wrong.
Sure about that?
>
>Debit cards are convenient if you want to track your small
>expenditures, but (as Lars pointed out) they will do NOTHING to help
>you control spending - yours or an irresponsible spouse or offspring.
Yes they are great for controlling spending. I had a roommate in
college whose parents gave him only a debit card, no credit cards, for
his expenses. The card was tied to an account they controlled. That
way they could control exactly how much he could spend. It was
remembering this example in the middle of typing my post that made me
write the exception in the second paragraph.
Scott
D.F. Manno
bill van <bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
> Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com> wrote:
>
> > Debit cards suck.
>
> I've never figured out why they exist.
For people whose credit is such that they do not qualify for a credit card.
--
D.F. Manno | dfm2a...@spymac.com
But I'd rather be a free man in my grave
Than living as a puppet or a slave.
-Jimmy Cliff
tooloud
If you examine Lars' original email, it looks to me like he used his debit
card as a credit card, not a debit + PIN. He should have been protected just
as if he'd used a CC. Anytime I've returned anything to my checking account
via my debit/credit card when it was presented as a CC, the credit has
appeared almost immediately.
--
tooloud
Remove nothing to reply...
tooloud
That's actually what most of the POS computers around here refer to as
"debit". I have a debit card from my bank with a Visa logo on it. I can use
it anyplace advertising Visa acceptance or anyplace that offers "debit"
acceptance.
When using it in "debit" mode, I have to put in my PIN. USPS, all the gas
stations, etc. take credit or debit around here--I can use the same card in
two different manners.
I also have a plain-old ATM card from another bank. It doesn't even have my
name on it--just the bank name and an account number. I can use that as a
debit card at any place that advertises that they accept debit. I have to
put in my PIN to use it.
IOW, there are hundreds of stores in which you can use your ATM/debit card
to pay for your purchases.
tooloud
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:40:32 -0400, Mikko Peltoniemi
> <mikk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> bill van wrote:
>>
>>> waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
>>> would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
>>> small-purchase retailing.
>>
>> Wendy's. (I actually pay with a card nowadays at Wendy's. Works much
>> quicker)
>
> convenience? I'm not.
I've never once seen a store charge to accept debit cards with a PIN here in
the midwest. I've never seen a minimum purchase either.
tooloud
<snip>
>> But that's Interac, where the service fee to the merchant is an order
>> of magnitude lower than either credit cards or US debit.
>
> I'm entering my curmudgeonly years, but I get a little irritated when
> the person ahead of me at the coffee counter uses a debit card to pay
> for a small purchase and holds the line up for a minute and a half
> entering a bunch of numbers, getting it wrong a couple of times,
> waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
> would take all of about 10 seconds. This is not an improvement in
> small-purchase retailing.
What difference would it make whether it was a 95¢ purchase or a $95
purchase as to your irritation? You'd be waiting the same either way,
really.
tooloud
<snip>
>> Actually, that's about 100% wrong.
>
> Sure about that?
>
>>
>> Debit cards are convenient if you want to track your small
>> expenditures, but (as Lars pointed out) they will do NOTHING to help
>> you control spending - yours or an irresponsible spouse or offspring.
>
>
> Yes they are great for controlling spending. I had a roommate in
> college whose parents gave him only a debit card, no credit cards, for
> his expenses. The card was tied to an account they controlled. That
> way they could control exactly how much he could spend. It was
> remembering this example in the middle of typing my post that made me
> write the exception in the second paragraph.
<sigh> Everyone's talking about different things in this whole thread. A
debit card can be several things:
1) a card with a Visa/MasterCard logo that "debits" money from your checking
account. Yes, you can overdraw these accounts through some banks.
2) an ATM card with no Visa/MasterCard logo that only works for "debit"
transactions, with a PIN. You can't overdraw these accounts.
A transaction with a debit card processed as "credit" is an example of #1.
People call these "debit cards" even though they use the credit card system.
A debit *transaction* generally means you're using a PIN. This is an example
of #2. Around here, this is accepted at a lot of gas stations and big box
stores.
I can't be the only person that understands the difference between the
"credit" and "debit" options at the little machine in the grocery store
line.
James Gifford
>>> Oh yeah, paying with cash is very simple and quick, especially at
>>> Wendy's. (I actually pay with a card nowadays at Wendy's. Works much
>>> quicker)
>> Are you willing to pay an additional 85 cents or so for the
>> convenience? I'm not.
> I've never once seen a store charge to accept debit cards with a PIN
> here in the midwest. I've never seen a minimum purchase either.
Stores, rarely: only the stupid or those that cater to them (read: most
convenience stores).
Fast-food places, frequently and gougingly - 75 cents to (once, a while
back) $1.50. Seen, not used.
Are you speaking of stores or fast-food outlets?
--
|=- James Gifford = FIX SPAMTRAP TO REPLY -=|
|=- So... your philosophy fits in a sig, does it? -=|
James Gifford
>>> Debit cards suck.
>> I've never figured out why they exist.
> For people whose credit is such that they do not qualify for a credit
> card.
Maybe for some, but to qualify for a checking account, and then a debit
card, there is still a credit-check hurdle at many banks.
I find a debit card a useful tool in between carrying a reasonably small
amount of cash and running purchases through a credit card. I use all, and
like having the choices. Especially now that debit card terminals are
nearly universal.
Boron Elgar
wrote:
><sigh> Everyone's talking about different things in this whole thread. A
>debit card can be several things:
>
>1) a card with a Visa/MasterCard logo that "debits" money from your checking
>account. Yes, you can overdraw these accounts through some banks.
>2) an ATM card with no Visa/MasterCard logo that only works for "debit"
>transactions, with a PIN. You can't overdraw these accounts.
Yes, you can overdraw these accounts through some banks/accounts. It
functions as an overdraft, usually connected to a credit card.
>
>A transaction with a debit card processed as "credit" is an example of #1.
>People call these "debit cards" even though they use the credit card system.
No...it has nothing to do with a "credit card system." Debit
transactions that require sign age cost the merchant more and are
processed through systems owned by Visa of Master Card, both of which
are huge financial processing companies, in & out of the credit card
business. The money still comes out of your checking account....you
know...the account is "debited."
>A debit *transaction* generally means you're using a PIN. This is an example
>of #2. Around here, this is accepted at a lot of gas stations and big box
>stores.
No.... the merchant charge per transaction is lower, and Visa or MC
don't make as much on it from fees or transaction processing.
>
>I can't be the only person that understands the difference between the
>"credit" and "debit" options at the little machine in the grocery store
>line.
No, but you are among many people who do not understand them.
Next time MC or Visa run some fancy sweepstakes or promo as the
holidays approach, take note that you usually get automatically
entered when your use your debit card in a SIGNED transaction, not a
PIN one. They take more, they give a bit back...to some folks.
Remember at most places (not all) it makes no difference to the
consumer whether s/he signs or uses a PIN.
Boron
Charles Bishop
<nospa...@mchsi.com> wrote:
Perhaps it's because there may be many small purchases but few of the $95
sort, so if the small ones are eliminated by cash, the larger ones may not
occur when he's in line.
charles, it seemed odd to me too, until someone here mentioned it might be
a debit card, rather than credit card.
Bob Ward
<qui...@REMVOETIHSix.netcom.com> wrote:
Until he overdraws the account, at least.
Bob Ward
wrote:
Wendys and Carl's Jr. both add on a "convenience fee" when a debit
card+PIN is used - In-N-Out has started installing ATMs in their
stores - they charge $1.50 for the "convenience".
bill van
"tooloud" <nospa...@mchsi.com> wrote:
In a supermarket or a clothing store where people can be expected to
make $95 purchases, I have no expectation of the line moving briskly
or of people paying cash. At the coffee counter in my office building,
where 95 cents buys a cup of regular coffee and the biggest order
tends to be a coffee and a muffin, it can be *mildly* (note emphasis)
irritating when someone holds up the line by choosing to pay with
plastic.
bill
TZK
> > take a couple of extra seconds to count out the coins?
>
> Not a problem. Why are you so exercised about this?
>
> bill
Because you wrote:
"I have no need for them, and I am sometimes mildly annoyed when they
slow down the lineup where I buy my coffee. I understand some people "
Does it take longer to enter your PIN than signing your name on a credit
transaction ("Got a pen?")?
bill van
"TZK" <@@@.com> wrote:
Nope. But for a transaction under two dollars, both are way slower
than paying cash.
bill, note the world "mildly"
Bob Ward
<bil...@separatethis.canada.com> wrote:
>Nope. But for a transaction under two dollars, both are way slower
>than paying cash.
Why should the size of the transaction matter?
Nick Spalding
on Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:39:38 GMT:
> Scott P wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Actually, that's about 100% wrong.
> >
> > Sure about that?
> >
> >>
> >> Debit cards are convenient if you want to track your small
> >> expenditures, but (as Lars pointed out) they will do NOTHING to help
> >> you control spending - yours or an irresponsible spouse or offspring.
> >
> >
> > Yes they are great for controlling spending. I had a roommate in
> > college whose parents gave him only a debit card, no credit cards, for
> > his expenses. The card was tied to an account they controlled. That
> > way they could control exactly how much he could spend. It was
> > remembering this example in the middle of typing my post that made me
> > write the exception in the second paragraph.
>
> <sigh> Everyone's talking about different things in this whole thread. A
> debit card can be several things:
>
> 1) a card with a Visa/MasterCard logo that "debits" money from your checking
> account. Yes, you can overdraw these accounts through some banks.
> 2) an ATM card with no Visa/MasterCard logo that only works for "debit"
> transactions, with a PIN. You can't overdraw these accounts.
>
> A transaction with a debit card processed as "credit" is an example of #1.
> People call these "debit cards" even though they use the credit card system.
> A debit *transaction* generally means you're using a PIN. This is an example
> of #2. Around here, this is accepted at a lot of gas stations and big box
> stores.
A variant on Type 2 issued by my bank is what I have, it works in a
store with a signature rather than a PIN which is only needed for an
ATM, and it can overdraw to exactly the same extent as any other means
of drawing from my account.
> I can't be the only person that understands the difference between the
> "credit" and "debit" options at the little machine in the grocery store
> line.
--
Nick Spalding
bill van
Bob Ward <bob...@email.com> wrote:
It's one of the variables of the transaction. Would you write a check
for 37 cents? Would you pay cash for an item priced at $1,299.99? Of
course not. You would make a decision based on multiple variables that
include your own convenience, the amount of cash you can comfortably
carry, the price of the item you are purchasing, whether or not you
are being attended to by a salesman wearing a tartan sports jacket and
looking for a commission, whether you are standing in line with 12
other people at a coffee counter at about a minute to nine in the
morning, and even the degree of consideration you can muster for the
people in line behind you who just want to hand over the cash so they
can head up to the office to face whatever tortures the day ahead
holds. Life is a multifaceted thing, Bob.
bill
Mikko Peltoniemi
> Wendys and Carl's Jr. both add on a "convenience fee" when a debit
> card+PIN is used - In-N-Out has started installing ATMs in their
> stores - they charge $1.50 for the "convenience".
This seems to vary, since here in New York I've used my card at Wendy's,
and didn't get that. I didn't need to sign a receipt, or enter a PIN
either...
--
Mikko Peltoniemi
Film & Video Editor, Avid Technician at large.
http://www.discountcadavers.com
Mikko Peltoniemi
> as if he'd used a CC. Anytime I've returned anything to my checking account
> via my debit/credit card when it was presented as a CC, the credit has
> appeared almost immediately.
I wrote about this earlier this year. It had happened to me that a sale
was made, which was put into a credit card, and then cancelled right
away. The amount showed reserved for about five days or so, if I remeber
correctly.
ra...@westnet.poe.com
I used to have something like that, long long ago, but pretty much every
bank around has expanded thier ATM cards to function as debit cards.
Still, what's the suckage about a debit card?
It's not as good as Credit or cash in many respects, true, but it's got
some advantages over each as well.
John
--
Remove the dead poet to e-mail, tho CC'd posts are unwelcome.
Mean People Suck - It takes two deviations to get cool.
Ask me about joining the NRA.
Jim Shaffer
<qui...@REMVOETIHSix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I have a card in my wallet that is an ATM card. I can use it in any
>ATM to get cash from my account. It's not a debit card or a check
>card. I couldn't use it in, say, a store even if I wanted to. I know
>I can't be the only person who has one of these.
I used to have one. It was automatically converted to a debit card
long enough ago that I can't remember when. I don't know if the bank
still issues ATM cards that don't also function as a debit card.
Derek Lyons
>Now I bet you any other place in town would have appologized
>profusely, comped me the pizza I had already ordered, and sent
>me glorious special coupons and begged for the chance to
>continue to serve. That's what I would have expected from any
>place I hadn't traded with regularly for a very long time.
You have absurd expectations.
>You see, delivery pizza is a service industry. The idea of
>selling a nickel's worth of dough and a buck's worth of thin
>sliced sausage for $11.99 is of course absurd.
What's absurd is you thinking that that $1.05 (your numbers, not mine)
is the total cost.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Derek Lyons
>It sounds like the US still has a way to go in perfecting their
>version of these cards.
No, it sounds like that one posters bank is screwed up - as mine does
not behave in the way his does. (Nor does my bank allow me to
withdraw/charge more than my available balance.)
Don't judge all the debit cards in America by a single, anecdotal,
piece of evidence. There is more than one debit provider.
Les Albert
wrote:
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>>It sounds like the US still has a way to go in perfecting their
>>version of these cards.
>No, it sounds like that one posters bank is screwed up - as mine does
>not behave in the way his does. (Nor does my bank allow me to
>withdraw/charge more than my available balance.)
>Don't judge all the debit cards in America by a single, anecdotal,
>piece of evidence. There is more than one debit provider.
Mr. Goss finds fault with a lot of things American compared to Canada.
After a while, when you read a criticism like his above, you just have
to consider the source.
Les
Derek Lyons
>On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:22:22 -0500, Lars Eighner <eig...@io.com>
>wrote:
>>
>>Debit cards suck.
>
>They are ridiculous and I have no idea why someone would use one.
Because they are easy and convenient.
>There is no added convenience for the consumer.
No longer having to carry cash and a checkbook. No longer having to
go through draconian ID procedures when using a check. No longer
having to worry about whether I have enough cash when I travel or if I
can find a place that will cash a non-local check.... (And those
folks who are married don't have to worry about the spouse having the
checkbook twenty miles away....)
They are certainly not for everyone - but for me they are a vast
convience. I remember the bad ol' days and don't miss them a bit.
>the only ones who benefit are the banks and the merchants. That's why
>they have to advertise them so much. Its the only way to convince people
>they are a good idea and you should have one.
Here at least, I never a standalone ad for a debit card from a bank -
it's always a part of something else. Those ads by Visa are to
encourage you to choose a Visa debit card over another brand, not to
convince you to have one. (Every bank I've dealt with for nearly
twenty years has issued you an ATM card or later, debit cards, as a
matter of routine.)
Charles Bishop
<lalb...@aol.com> wrote:
I haven't noticed any criticism that I would consider unfair. He might be
wrong now and then, but I don't think he slams the US as a matter of
course.
charles, some of my best friends are Canadians
D.F. Manno
James Gifford <n...@nitrosyncretic.kom> wrote:
> >>> Debit cards suck.
>
> >> I've never figured out why they exist.
>
> > For people whose credit is such that they do not qualify for a credit
> > card.
>
> Maybe for some, but to qualify for a checking account, and then a debit
> card, there is still a credit-check hurdle at many banks.
For values of "some" that until last week included "me." Qualifying for a
checking account is less difficult than qualifying for a credit card, and once
you open the checking account getting a debit card is all but automatic.
--
D.F. Manno | dfm2a...@spymac.com
But I'd rather be a free man in my grave
Than living as a puppet or a slave.
-Jimmy Cliff
Estron
> I'm entering my curmudgeonly years, but I get a little irritated when
> the person ahead of me at the coffee counter uses a debit card to pay
> for a small purchase and holds the line up for a minute and a half
> entering a bunch of numbers, getting it wrong a couple of times,
> waiting for the transaction to be approved, etc., when paying cash
> would take all of about 10 seconds.
Some people using the employee cafeteria/commissary where I work use their
cards to pay for lunch. Sometimes I start to get ticked off at them, but
then I have to stop and tell myself, "Hel-LO! You're working at a credit-
card company! What do you expect?"
--
Any opinions expressed above are only that, and are my own.
Pax vobiscum.
est...@tfs.net
Sugar Creek (but not for much longer), Missouri