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"Holiday Inn" and blackface
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D.F. Manno
Dec 24, 2012, 11:12:45 PM12/24/12
to
How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
--
D.F. Manno | dfm...@mail.com
GOP delenda est!
Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
--
D.F. Manno | dfm...@mail.com
GOP delenda est!
Tim Wright
Dec 24, 2012, 11:21:54 PM12/24/12
to
On 12/24/2012 10:12 PM, D.F. Manno wrote:
> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
>
It was a different world in 1942.
> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
>
--
Tim W
Nasti J
Dec 25, 2012, 12:58:05 AM12/25/12
to
On Dec 24, 9:12 pm, "D.F. Manno" <dfma...@mail.com> wrote:
> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
blackface sequence, too.
Snidely
Dec 25, 2012, 2:31:08 AM12/25/12
to
Nasti J noted that:
But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
bill van
Dec 25, 2012, 3:20:15 AM12/25/12
to
In article <reudnYIPCIp9tETN...@supernews.com>,
It was also the time of Amos 'n' Andy, whose niche in the culture we
discussed here a few months ago.
bill
discussed here a few months ago.
bill
bill van
Dec 25, 2012, 5:10:16 AM12/25/12
to
In article <mn.c5837dcc64802227.127094@snitoo>,
for decades, like Miracle on 34th Street and several of the Christmas
Story/Carol/Scrooge iterations. That gives it a certain amount of
traction. Another is that the song, while performed by Crosby and some
or all of the band members in blackface, has lyrics that celebrate the
end of slavery and glorify Abraham Lincoln for his role in that. That
makes the racism card a little more difficult to play.
On the other hand, one of the singers who get screen time in the song is
a classic black "Mammy" figure who uses the word "darkie" in the verse
she sings. I wonder if the follow-up White Christmas 12 years later,
which also contained the Holiday Inn hit song "White Christmas", was an
attempt to deflect attention away from Holiday Inn.
My own view is generally that significant cultural artifacts should be
available for viewing in their original form. Censoring them to conform
with present-day sensibilities is equivalent to painting bikinis on
Peter Paul Rubens nudes. It's senseless and stupid. But whether Holiday
Inn should be shown over and over again on TV around Christmas with or
without the blackface while young kids are watching a lot of TV, I'm not
sure. I gather that there are versions of the movie around that exclude
the blackface, and some that continue to include it.
Perhaps there should be a viewer warning displayed and/or spoken before
each showing. There could be two versions:
1. This movie includes scenes in which white actors appear in blackface,
something that was common at the time it was made, but has since been
considered by many to be racist. We are showing the uncensored version
for reasons of historical accuracy. Viewer discretion is advised.
2. This movie was originally made with several scenes in which white
actors appeared in blackface, a practice that many now consider to be
racist. These scenes have been edited out of this version of the movie.
The unedited version with blackface scenes included can be found online
at (url).
When kids are in charge of the remotes, of course they're going to watch
anything that has a viewer warning on it. It's up to parents to decide
whether to program their equipment to deny their kids access to racy
stuff.
So, has anybody seen Holiday Inn on TV lately? Was the blackface musical
number left in or out?
bill
> > On Dec 24, 9:12�pm, "D.F. Manno" <dfma...@mail.com> wrote:
> >> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> >> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
> >
> > What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
> > was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
> > entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
> > blackface sequence, too.
>
> But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
> in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
>
Several things. One is that Holiday Inn has been a TV Christmas staple
> >> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> >> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
> >
> > What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
> > was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
> > entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
> > blackface sequence, too.
>
> But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
> in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
>
for decades, like Miracle on 34th Street and several of the Christmas
Story/Carol/Scrooge iterations. That gives it a certain amount of
traction. Another is that the song, while performed by Crosby and some
or all of the band members in blackface, has lyrics that celebrate the
end of slavery and glorify Abraham Lincoln for his role in that. That
makes the racism card a little more difficult to play.
On the other hand, one of the singers who get screen time in the song is
a classic black "Mammy" figure who uses the word "darkie" in the verse
she sings. I wonder if the follow-up White Christmas 12 years later,
which also contained the Holiday Inn hit song "White Christmas", was an
attempt to deflect attention away from Holiday Inn.
My own view is generally that significant cultural artifacts should be
available for viewing in their original form. Censoring them to conform
with present-day sensibilities is equivalent to painting bikinis on
Peter Paul Rubens nudes. It's senseless and stupid. But whether Holiday
Inn should be shown over and over again on TV around Christmas with or
without the blackface while young kids are watching a lot of TV, I'm not
sure. I gather that there are versions of the movie around that exclude
the blackface, and some that continue to include it.
Perhaps there should be a viewer warning displayed and/or spoken before
each showing. There could be two versions:
1. This movie includes scenes in which white actors appear in blackface,
something that was common at the time it was made, but has since been
considered by many to be racist. We are showing the uncensored version
for reasons of historical accuracy. Viewer discretion is advised.
2. This movie was originally made with several scenes in which white
actors appeared in blackface, a practice that many now consider to be
racist. These scenes have been edited out of this version of the movie.
The unedited version with blackface scenes included can be found online
at (url).
When kids are in charge of the remotes, of course they're going to watch
anything that has a viewer warning on it. It's up to parents to decide
whether to program their equipment to deny their kids access to racy
stuff.
So, has anybody seen Holiday Inn on TV lately? Was the blackface musical
number left in or out?
bill
Opus the Penguin
Dec 25, 2012, 5:47:44 AM12/25/12
to
bill van (bil...@delete.shaw.ca) wrote:
> My own view is generally that significant cultural artifacts
> should be available for viewing in their original form. Censoring
> them to conform with present-day sensibilities is equivalent to
> painting bikinis on Peter Paul Rubens nudes. It's senseless and
> stupid.
I'll say! Those gals definitely need a one-piece.
> My own view is generally that significant cultural artifacts
> should be available for viewing in their original form. Censoring
> them to conform with present-day sensibilities is equivalent to
> painting bikinis on Peter Paul Rubens nudes. It's senseless and
> stupid.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Tim Wright
Dec 25, 2012, 8:47:58 AM12/25/12
to
On 12/25/2012 1:31 AM, Snidely wrote:
> Nasti J noted that:
> Nasti J noted that:
>> On Dec 24, 9:12 pm, "D.F. Manno" <dfma...@mail.com> wrote:
>>> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
>>> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
>>
>>
>> What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
>> was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
>> entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
>> blackface sequence, too.
>
> But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
> in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
>
Do you also want to take all the racial slurs out of Tom Sawyer or Gone
>>> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
>>> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
>>
>>
>> What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
>> was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
>> entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
>> blackface sequence, too.
>
> But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
> in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
>
With The Wind?
--
Tim W
Message has been deleted
D.F. Manno
Dec 25, 2012, 11:41:01 AM12/25/12
to
> Nasti J noted that:
'n' Andy" on TV anywhere lately? Heads would roll if any network so much
as put it on the schedule.
Even the city of Philadelphia, historically not known for its
enlightened racial attitudes, banned blackface in the Mummers Parade in
1964.
> > On Dec 24, 9:12�pm, "D.F. Manno" <dfma...@mail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> >> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
> >
> > What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
> > was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
> > entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
> > blackface sequence, too.
>
> But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
> in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
Exactly. Blackface in other contexts is usually unacceptable; seen "Amos
> >
> >> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> >> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
> >
> > What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
> > was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
> > entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
> > blackface sequence, too.
>
> But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
> in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
'n' Andy" on TV anywhere lately? Heads would roll if any network so much
as put it on the schedule.
Even the city of Philadelphia, historically not known for its
enlightened racial attitudes, banned blackface in the Mummers Parade in
1964.
D.F. Manno
Dec 25, 2012, 11:44:08 AM12/25/12
to
In article <billvan-ADCBB6...@news.shawcable.net>,
the Abraham number intact. That's what prompted the original post. I'd
never seen the number in previous viewings.
bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
> So, has anybody seen Holiday Inn on TV lately? Was the blackface musical
> number left in or out?
It was aired last night on one of the Encore cable movie channels, with
> So, has anybody seen Holiday Inn on TV lately? Was the blackface musical
> number left in or out?
the Abraham number intact. That's what prompted the original post. I'd
never seen the number in previous viewings.
Peter Ward
Dec 25, 2012, 11:59:58 AM12/25/12
to
D.F. Manno says...
Whereas, we had, on TV, the Black and White Minstrel Show, which my
father enjoyed, and which appalled me just as much for its bland musical
styling and feeble comedy as anything to do with the creepy blackfaces.
It started in 1958 (I read), and was still going well into the '70s:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show
--
Peter, from outside the asylum
I'm an alien
email: usenet at peterward dot adsl24 dot co dot uk
http://blowinsmoke.wordpress.com/
There's another example, but I can't think of it.
- Greg Goss
father enjoyed, and which appalled me just as much for its bland musical
styling and feeble comedy as anything to do with the creepy blackfaces.
It started in 1958 (I read), and was still going well into the '70s:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show
--
Peter, from outside the asylum
I'm an alien
email: usenet at peterward dot adsl24 dot co dot uk
http://blowinsmoke.wordpress.com/
There's another example, but I can't think of it.
- Greg Goss
Snidely
Dec 25, 2012, 12:16:19 PM12/25/12
to
Tim Wright submitted this idea :
I'm in no hurry to, but I did feel that the first round of answers
didn't address Dom's question. Personally, my thinking aligns somewhat
with Bill Van's. And, as further illustrated by the Taylor-Burton
Taming of the Shrew, some productions are suitable for family viewing
and some aren't.
Heck, some people take the blood out of the Brothers Grimm.
didn't address Dom's question. Personally, my thinking aligns somewhat
with Bill Van's. And, as further illustrated by the Taylor-Burton
Taming of the Shrew, some productions are suitable for family viewing
and some aren't.
Heck, some people take the blood out of the Brothers Grimm.
Pastime
Dec 25, 2012, 2:28:31 PM12/25/12
to
broadcasting this racist shit?" rants. Should have been pulled long
before it was.
--
John
BillT...@invalid.com
Dec 25, 2012, 4:30:33 PM12/25/12
to
On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 02:10:16 -0800, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
wrote:
>My own view is generally that significant cultural artifacts should be
>available for viewing in their original form. Censoring them to conform
>with present-day sensibilities is equivalent to painting bikinis on
>Peter Paul Rubens nudes.
::like::
wrote:
>My own view is generally that significant cultural artifacts should be
>available for viewing in their original form. Censoring them to conform
>with present-day sensibilities is equivalent to painting bikinis on
>Peter Paul Rubens nudes.
Nasti J
Dec 26, 2012, 1:22:00 AM12/26/12
to
On Dec 25, 9:41 am, "D.F. Manno" <dfma...@mail.com> wrote:
> In article <mn.c5837dcc64802227.127094@snitoo>,
>
> In article <mn.c5837dcc64802227.127094@snitoo>,
>
> Snidely <snidely....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Nasti J noted that:
> > > On Dec 24, 9:12 pm, "D.F. Manno" <dfma...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> > >> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
>
> > > What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
> > > was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
> > > entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
> > > blackface sequence, too.
>
> > But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
> > in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
>
> Exactly. Blackface in other contexts is usually unacceptable; seen "Amos
> 'n' Andy" on TV anywhere lately? Heads would roll if any network so much
> as put it on the schedule.
The Amos 'n' Andy TV show starred two actual black men; there was no
> > Nasti J noted that:
> > > On Dec 24, 9:12 pm, "D.F. Manno" <dfma...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> > >> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
>
> > > What do you mean by "get a pass"? It is what it is, which is what it
> > > was in 1942 - blackface was not culturally taboo, it was seen as quite
> > > entertaining. "Yankee Doodle Dandy," also released in 1942, had a
> > > blackface sequence, too.
>
> > But I think part of the question is, why is this movie still acceptable
> > in 2012? It's a different world in 2012.
>
> Exactly. Blackface in other contexts is usually unacceptable; seen "Amos
> 'n' Andy" on TV anywhere lately? Heads would roll if any network so much
> as put it on the schedule.
black-face involved. The characters' originators, white men named
Freeman Gosden and Charles Correll, had used skin-darkening makeup in
vaudeville in the 1920s wjen the characters debuted, but had dropped
the make-up by the 40s when they were doing their radio show. (And
they were not using the grotesque minstrel macquillage that included
white circles around the eyes and mouth.)
Nasti J
Dec 26, 2012, 1:36:15 AM12/26/12
to
On Dec 25, 3:10 am, bill van <bill...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
> On the other hand, one of the singers who get screen time in the song is
> a classic black "Mammy" figure who uses the word "darkie" in the verse
> she sings. I wonder if the follow-up White Christmas 12 years later,
> which also contained the Holiday Inn hit song "White Christmas", was an
> attempt to deflect attention away from Holiday Inn.
"White Christmas" contains a minstrel-show act, followed by Vera-
> On the other hand, one of the singers who get screen time in the song is
> a classic black "Mammy" figure who uses the word "darkie" in the verse
> she sings. I wonder if the follow-up White Christmas 12 years later,
> which also contained the Holiday Inn hit song "White Christmas", was an
> attempt to deflect attention away from Holiday Inn.
Ellen's "Mandy" dance, all of which appear to have been done WITHOUT
black-face at the last minute.
Paul Ciszek
Dec 26, 2012, 1:20:51 PM12/26/12
to
In article <19dc5b1e-66fd-4fb5...@m4g2000pbd.googlegroups.com>,
"Choreography") so was the minstrel show number intended to be "retro" at
that point?
I am now wondering if I ever saw "Holiday Inn" at all. I thought I did,
but now I think I am just conflating memories of "White Christmas" with
the knowledge that there was an earlier black and white version.
--
"Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS
crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in
TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in
bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither."
Tim Wright
Dec 26, 2012, 2:19:37 PM12/26/12
to
Message has been deleted
BillT...@invalid.com
Dec 28, 2012, 8:47:02 PM12/28/12
to
wolea...@gmail.com
Dec 26, 2014, 6:23:23 AM12/26/14
to
John Mc.
Dec 26, 2014, 8:44:26 PM12/26/14
to
Ted Danson's essay into it back in 1993 does. Don't care if Whoopi
Goldberg asked him to or not.
John Mc.
D.F. Manno
Dec 26, 2014, 10:22:04 PM12/26/14
to
In article <m7l2t2$497$1...@dont-email.me>, "John Mc." <jo...@tdcogre.com>
wrote:
> On 12/26/2014 6:23 AM, wolea...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, December 24, 2012 10:12:45 PM UTC-6, D.F. Manno wrote:
> >
> >> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> >> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
> >
<http://reelclub.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/a-white-christmas-witnessing-ra
cial-intolerance-in-1940s-america-through-holiday-inn/> or
<http://tinyurl.com/ou3pnzb>
I'm not so sure it can be dismissed as "different times" so easily.
Sure, whites thought nothing of it, but that's evidence of the era's
racism, not dispensation for it. How did blacks feel about it at the
time?
wrote:
> On 12/26/2014 6:23 AM, wolea...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, December 24, 2012 10:12:45 PM UTC-6, D.F. Manno wrote:
> >
> >> How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> >> Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
> >
> > You got your Marxist censorship. What other constitutional rights do you
> > want us to lose ? Tyranny over freedom, yeah, that's the ticket to
> > happiness !
>
> Crosby's blackface doesn't bother me. Those were different times.
There's more than the blackface number to object to on racism grounds:
> > want us to lose ? Tyranny over freedom, yeah, that's the ticket to
> > happiness !
>
> Crosby's blackface doesn't bother me. Those were different times.
<http://reelclub.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/a-white-christmas-witnessing-ra
cial-intolerance-in-1940s-america-through-holiday-inn/> or
<http://tinyurl.com/ou3pnzb>
I'm not so sure it can be dismissed as "different times" so easily.
Sure, whites thought nothing of it, but that's evidence of the era's
racism, not dispensation for it. How did blacks feel about it at the
time?
D.F. Manno
Dec 26, 2014, 10:24:42 PM12/26/14
to
In article <6d08c3d0-484d-4c55...@googlegroups.com>,
questioning how the film appeared to escape much criticism for the
number where other material (e.g., Warner Brothers cartoons) has not.
wolea...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 24, 2012 10:12:45 PM UTC-6, D.F. Manno wrote:
>
> > How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> > Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
>
> On Monday, December 24, 2012 10:12:45 PM UTC-6, D.F. Manno wrote:
>
> > How does the movie "Holiday Inn" get a pass on use of blackface (by Bing
> > Crosby's character and others in the Lincoln's Birthday number)?
>
> You got your Marxist censorship. What other constitutional rights do you want
> us to lose ? Tyranny over freedom, yeah, that's the ticket to happiness !
No one's calling for censorship, asshole. The original post was
> us to lose ? Tyranny over freedom, yeah, that's the ticket to happiness !
questioning how the film appeared to escape much criticism for the
number where other material (e.g., Warner Brothers cartoons) has not.
bill van
Dec 27, 2014, 1:37:10 AM12/27/14
to
In article <dfmanno-3C62D3...@news.albasani.net>,
I'm pretty sure they weren't the target audience.
--
bill
--
bill
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