Formality
Dover Beach
The U.S. South has a tradition of addressing women as "Miss Firstname".
It's really handy. The lady I talked about yesterday just called me to
see if I could drive her again tomorrow (unfortunately, I'm committed at
the library) and she addressed me as Miss <MyFirstName>. It was very
easy to fall back into my years in North Carolina and address her as
Miss Marilyn. I guess it's kind of like Russians using the patronym:
Dounia Romanovna instead of Ms Raskolnikov or just Dounia. It's friendly
but respectful; not condescending or diminishing. Since I like it, I
think everyone should start using it right away.
--
Miss Dover
QueBarbara
wrote:
That tradition is still somewhat common around here and I agree. It
also works with men, by the way. (Although most of them prefer being
addressed as Mister <FirstName> rather than Miss <FirstName>, but you
knew that).
--
QueBarbara
David Friedman
QueBarbara <que.barb...@go-awaygmail.com> wrote:
I'm not certain, but I think that some of the men, almost certainly
hispanic, whom we have hired to do work around the house or yard at one
point or another have addressed me as "Mr. David."
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
Les Albert
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <2uqbg5tkiaevjokhh...@4ax.com>,
> QueBarbara <que.barb...@go-awaygmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 20 Nov 2009 00:51:58 GMT, Dover Beach <moon.b...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The U.S. South has a tradition of addressing women as "Miss Firstname".
>> >It's really handy. The lady I talked about yesterday just called me to
>> >see if I could drive her again tomorrow (unfortunately, I'm committed at
>> >the library) and she addressed me as Miss <MyFirstName>. It was very
>> >easy to fall back into my years in North Carolina and address her as
>> >Miss Marilyn. I guess it's kind of like Russians using the patronym:
>> >Dounia Romanovna instead of Ms Raskolnikov or just Dounia. It's friendly
>> >but respectful; not condescending or diminishing. Since I like it, I
>> >think everyone should start using it right away.
>> >
>>
>> That tradition is still somewhat common around here and I agree. It
>> also works with men, by the way. (Although most of them prefer being
>> addressed as Mister <FirstName> rather than Miss <FirstName>, but you
>> knew that).
>I'm not certain, but I think that some of the men, almost certainly
>hispanic, whom we have hired to do work around the house or yard at one
>point or another have addressed me as "Mr. David."
When I lived in Alabama some of the hired help addressed me as "Mr.
Les".
Les
Mary
Is that the same dynamic, though, when it's an employee-employer
relationship, as it is in the instance Dover mentioned?
Mary
Dover Beach
news:2uqbg5tkiaevjokhh...@4ax.com:
Is it as reciprocal, though? If your husband was addressed as Mr. Dude,
would he address the other guy as Mr. FirstName? I just have this
intuition that it doesn't work as reciprocally. It's been a long time
since North Carolina, though.
--
Dover
Bob Ward
My wife gets many business calls asking if "Miss Bunny" is available.
It's a mixture of spinsters and clergymen of various ethnicity and
ages. Surprisingly, she's also been getting an encouraging number of
referrals from the Internet, from mentions in bride's Facebook
accounts and blogs.
N Jill Marsh
>Les Albert wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:22:13 -0800, David Friedman
>> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <2uqbg5tkiaevjokhh...@4ax.com>,
>>> QueBarbara <que.barb...@go-awaygmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 20 Nov 2009 00:51:58 GMT, Dover Beach <moon.b...@gmail.com>:
>>>>> The U.S. South has a tradition of addressing women as "Miss Firstname".
>>>>> It's really handy..
>>>>>
>>>> That tradition is still somewhat common around here and I agree. It
>>>> also works with men, by the way. (Although most of them prefer being
>>>> addressed as Mister <FirstName> rather than Miss <FirstName>, but you
>>>> knew that).
>>
>>> I'm not certain, but I think that some of the men, almost certainly
>>> hispanic, whom we have hired to do work around the house or yard at one
>>> point or another have addressed me as "Mr. David."
>>
>> When I lived in Alabama some of the hired help addressed me as "Mr.
>> Les".
>
>Is that the same dynamic, though, when it's an employee-employer
>relationship, as it is in the instance Dover mentioned?
No, it's not, but I don't think Dover is describing an
employee-employer relationship as much as a slightly formal but
friendly one, between equals or otherwise. It's quite common in
Jamaica but that's a culture where the use of unadorned first names is
still quite uncommon between strangers in many contexts.
nj"mrs chin"m
--
Welcome, stranger, to the humble neighbourhoods.
Mary
That's what I was getting at. David and Les were both describing
situations where people who worked for them called them "Mr David" and
"Mr Les". Dover's situation is more of just casual acquaintances,
between equals, as you said.
I wonder whether David and Les called the "hired help" by "Mr Firstname"
in return.
Mary
QueBarbara
wrote:
You and Miss Mary have both brought up this aspect. I would say that
'round here it is a) common for hired help to use the honorific for
both men and women, b) it is used as a tool for parents to coach their
children how to show respect to their elders, c) it is often used by
casual female acquaintances, but rarely used among casual male
acquaintances.
--
QueBarbara
Mary
Nice and succinct, thank you. That's what I expected, Miss Barbara!
From our sojourn in the South when I was a kid, this is what I
remember: we had to call all the adult neighbors either "Mr. Smith" or
"Miss Susan".
I still remember the day that one of the (adult) neighbors was in the
yard talking to my dad, and his son (who was Jim, Jr and about my age)
walked up the sidewalk. "Hey Jim", I said, and Jim Sr gave me the
weirdest look - because he couldn't see his son from his angle.
Mary
Charles Wm. Dimmick
I use it for several of the older ladies in my Church, mostly my age or
older. Mostly they are amused.
Charles
Dover Beach
news:hi0cg59c50r6s7pv7...@4ax.com:
>
> You and Miss Mary have both brought up this aspect. I would say that
> 'round here it is a) common for hired help to use the honorific for
> both men and women, b) it is used as a tool for parents to coach their
> children how to show respect to their elders, c) it is often used by
> casual female acquaintances, but rarely used among casual male
> acquaintances.
>
My ex-bf's mother was Miss Eunice. I don't think she addressed me at
all. I mean, she talked to me, but she didn't call me by name, and
really don't think she would have called me anything other than just
Dover. I addressed Miss Eunice's sister as Miss Inez. This may be more
complicated than I thought.
--
Dover
David Friedman
Mary <mrfea...@aol.c0m> wrote:
> That's what I was getting at. David and Les were both describing
> situations where people who worked for them called them "Mr David" and
> "Mr Les". Dover's situation is more of just casual acquaintances,
> between equals, as you said.
>
> I wonder whether David and Les called the "hired help" by "Mr Firstname"
> in return.
I didn't. It isn't a natural usage for me, whatever the relation.
I'm not sure, remembering it, if the case I'm thinking of was hired help
or someone who was negotiating with me to have him and his team do some
work trimming trees and such. That's less of a clear status gap.
Bob Ward
wrote:
The second "s" was silent then as it is now?
Greg Goss
>Miss Dover
With my weak throwing arm, I'm more likely to have missed under.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
mike muth
> I use it for several of the older ladies in my Church, mostly my age or
> older. Mostly they are amused.
In my church (in Kansas), it's used in the third person when actually
addressing that person. My minister will often say "How's Mr. Mike
today?" or "How's sister Martha?".
--
Mike
Greg Goss
>Les Albert wrote:
>> When I lived in Alabama some of the hired help addressed me as "Mr.
>> Les".
>
>Is that the same dynamic, though, when it's an employee-employer
>relationship, as it is in the instance Dover mentioned?
Two of my friends used to refer to me as "The Gregmeister". I don't
think there's a possibility that they knew each other. This was in a
peer relationship.
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
> Since I like it, I
> think everyone should start using it right away.
Okily Dokily.
Miss Xho
Les Albert
I called them by their first name.
Les
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
> Mary <mrfea...@aol.c0m> wrote:
>
>> Les Albert wrote:
>
>>> When I lived in Alabama some of the hired help addressed me as "Mr.
>>> Les".
>> Is that the same dynamic, though, when it's an employee-employer
>> relationship, as it is in the instance Dover mentioned?
>
> Two of my friends used to refer to me as "The Gregmeister".
One of my friends used to call me "The goofy bastard".
Xho
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
Er, ah, what was Miss Inez's name? I'm guessing Inez was last and not
first?
> This may be more
> complicated than I thought.
One of my friends was offended that I assumed her mother spoke Spanish.
"Just because she has an Hispanic last name doesn't mean she speaks
Spanish." True, but I figured someone who calls me "El mijo" probably does.
Xho
Hank Gillette
Dover Beach <moon.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a somewhat different view of this practice. My dad worked at a
lumberyard and all of the employees who worked outside of the office
called each other by their first names, with one distinction: the white
employees called each other and the black employees by their first name,
but the black employees called the white employees by their first name
preceded by "Mister". So my father, who was nicknamed "Red", was "Mister
Red" to the black employees who worked there.
--
Hank Gillette
"Years ago, I asked my dad for a boob job and he said it would cheapen
my image" -- Paris Hilton
Hank Gillette
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Two of my friends used to refer to me as "The Gregmeister".
>
> One of my friends used to call me "The goofy bastard".
>
I used to call my boss "The Little Weasel".
N Jill Marsh
My apologies, I read that exactly the wrong way around. I blame, um,
something beyond my control. It'll come to me.
>I wonder whether David and Les called the "hired help" by "Mr Firstname"
>in return.
I do.
nj"prefers it"m
Dover Beach
news:4b0623f0$0$6758$ed36...@nr5-q3a.newsreader.com:
> Dover Beach wrote:
>>
>> My ex-bf's mother was Miss Eunice. I don't think she addressed me at
>> all. I mean, she talked to me, but she didn't call me by name, and
>> really don't think she would have called me anything other than just
>> Dover. I addressed Miss Eunice's sister as Miss Inez.
>
> Er, ah, what was Miss Inez's name? I'm guessing Inez was last and not
> first?
>
You've never heard the name Inez? Her last name was something like
Caldwell. Calling her Mrs. Caldwell would have been very formal, and a
little cold-sounding for addressing a boyfriend's elderly auntie.
>> This may be more
>> complicated than I thought.
>
> One of my friends was offended that I assumed her mother spoke
> Spanish.
> "Just because she has an Hispanic last name doesn't mean she speaks
> Spanish." True, but I figured someone who calls me "El mijo" probably
> does.
>
"The my son"? She's right, she doesn't speak Spanish.
--
Dover
Dover Beach
news:hankgillette-D300...@news.astraweb.com:
> I have a somewhat different view of this practice. My dad worked at a
> lumberyard and all of the employees who worked outside of the office
> called each other by their first names, with one distinction: the
> white employees called each other and the black employees by their
> first name, but the black employees called the white employees by
> their first name preceded by "Mister". So my father, who was nicknamed
> "Red", was "Mister Red" to the black employees who worked there.
>
Yeah, I think we're establishing that there's a strong gender
difference to the practice.
--
Dover
Lesmond
I am not from the South, so I was unfamiliar with this practice until I met
the children of an ex-boyfirend who does currently live in the south. So my
husband and I are Miss Lesmond and Mr. Husband. I find it charming.
On the other hand, I have a couple of kids in my cub scout troop who were
instructed by their parents to call me Miss Lesmond. But all the other kids
in the neighborhood call me by just my first name. So when their parents are
around, I'm Miss Lesmond and when their folks aren't, I'm just Lesmond.
--
If there's a nuclear winter, at least it'll snow.
Glenn Dowdy
"Dover Beach" <moon.b...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9CC8B57C5C81Amo...@130.133.1.4...
>
> The U.S. South has a tradition of addressing women as "Miss Firstname".
> It's really handy. The lady I talked about yesterday just called me to
> see if I could drive her again tomorrow (unfortunately, I'm committed at
> the library) and she addressed me as Miss <MyFirstName>. It was very
> easy to fall back into my years in North Carolina and address her as
> Miss Marilyn. I guess it's kind of like Russians using the patronym:
> Dounia Romanovna instead of Ms Raskolnikov or just Dounia. It's friendly
> but respectful; not condescending or diminishing. Since I like it, I
> think everyone should start using it right away.
>
> Miss Dover
It's "Miz", you damn yankee.
Glenn D.
S. Checker
The WD has a close friend with children ages 3-16. Our children all
refer to her as "Mrs. D____" (last name) but her children call us "Miss
_____" and "Mr. ______" (first names). It is a way to show respect
without all the formality of the last name. On the other hand, we have
a very close friend who the children refer to as Aunt ______. She's the
only non-family member to rate that honorific.
So it is a respect thing, and a rank thing. But of course we're right
on top of the Mason Dixon Line so we get mixed up between Northern and
Southern behaviors.
--
Never fight a LAN war in AJAX
-- Arthur, on one of the classic blunders of the digital age.
Charles Wm. Dimmick
construction job in Jacksonville, Florida, back in 1961. I was
MistaChal, the foreman was MistaJoe. This from the black workers from
coastal southeast Georgia. There was no final "r" or "s" or "ts" to any
of their words.
Charles
Les Albert
<cdim...@snet.net> wrote:
>Hank Gillette wrote:
>> I have a somewhat different view of this practice. My dad worked at a
>> lumberyard and all of the employees who worked outside of the office
>> called each other by their first names, with one distinction: the white
>> employees called each other and the black employees by their first name,
>> but the black employees called the white employees by their first name
>> preceded by "Mister". So my father, who was nicknamed "Red", was "Mister
>> Red" to the black employees who worked there.
>Same when I worked as paymaster [and general record keeper] on a
>construction job in Jacksonville, Florida, back in 1961. I was
>MistaChal, the foreman was MistaJoe. This from the black workers from
>coastal southeast Georgia. There was no final "r" or "s" or "ts" to any
>of their words.
If you were my paymaster then I would call you Mr. Bossman. Or
anything else that you would like to be called.
Les
K_S_ONeill
> The U.S. South has a tradition of addressing women as "Miss Firstname".
> It's really handy. The lady I talked about yesterday just called me to
> see if I could drive her again tomorrow (unfortunately, I'm committed at
> the library) and she addressed me as Miss <MyFirstName>. It was very
> easy to fall back into my years in North Carolina and address her as
> Miss Marilyn. I guess it's kind of like Russians using the patronym:
> Dounia Romanovna instead of Ms Raskolnikov or just Dounia. It's friendly
> but respectful; not condescending or diminishing. Since I like it, I
> think everyone should start using it right away.
It drives me up the wall. I don't know why. The kids I coach in
fencing call me "O'Neill", which is fine, but every semester I have to
beat a few of them out of calling me "Mr Kevin", which sounds to me
like something you'd hear in the first twenty minutes of an Arnold
movie about him teaching kindergarten, or "Coach", which I just don't
like.
The girls call my wife "Miss <firstname>", though, which they all like
fine. I don't know. It does seem different for women.
--
Kevin
QueBarbara
<cdim...@snet.net> wrote:
Our Hispanic maid calls my husband Mister Es-scot. I can't tell if she
calls his mother Phyllis Miss Willy or Miss Willis, it's sorta right
in between.
--
QueBarbara
Hank Gillette
Dover Beach <moon.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I think we're establishing that there's a strong gender
> difference to the practice.
>
My mother said that when she was young, it was common to address a much
older cousin by their first name prefaced with "Cousin". I think that is
a useful practice. My parents would visit one of her cousins (roughly
her age) occasionally, and I never knew how to address him. We were
taught not to call adults by their first names, and the relationship was
too close for "Mister" to be appropriate. Since my parents never
instructed me to call him "Cousin Walter", I just avoided ever calling
him by name.
Richard R. Hershberger
The neighborhood kids call me "Mister Richard". I take it as the
accepted respectful form of address around here (Maryland) though it
isn't what I grew up with. We use the same form with daycare,
referring to "Miss Michelle" when talking to the kid.
Others have suggested a gender distinction, but I think it is more
like the French tu/vous distinction. The rules for who gets the
formal and who gets the informal may vary between genders, but it is
there both ways.
Then there are subtleties of social class which are difficult to
summarize, what with how we Americans enjoy pretending we don't have
social classes.
Richard R. Hershberger
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Actually, the title was almost all I had. I was responsible for the pay
sheets, the inventory, any other kind of paperwork, placing orders for
supplies and materials, answering the phone, and making the coffee first
thing every morning. But I was outranked by the foreman and by anyone
from the head office.
Charles
bill van
<6909619c-a081-4659...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Some of my cow-orkers call me Mr. Bill some of the time, but it's not a
class thing. It's to see whether I say "Oooh no!" in a falsetto voice.
bill, sometimes I do
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
> Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xho...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:4b0623f0$0$6758$ed36...@nr5-q3a.newsreader.com:
>
>> Dover Beach wrote:
>>> My ex-bf's mother was Miss Eunice. I don't think she addressed me at
>>> all. I mean, she talked to me, but she didn't call me by name, and
>>> really don't think she would have called me anything other than just
>>> Dover. I addressed Miss Eunice's sister as Miss Inez.
>> Er, ah, what was Miss Inez's name? I'm guessing Inez was last and not
>> first?
>>
>
> You've never heard the name Inez?
I'm sure I have, but didn't take notes. Sounds like something that
could be either first or last name. You went on to say it might be more
complicated, so I thought you were contrasting the two situations. If
they were both first names, then I guess I'm still confused.
> Her last name was something like
> Caldwell. Calling her Mrs. Caldwell would have been very formal, and a
> little cold-sounding for addressing a boyfriend's elderly auntie.
>
>>> This may be more
>>> complicated than I thought.
>> One of my friends was offended that I assumed her mother spoke
>> Spanish.
>> "Just because she has an Hispanic last name doesn't mean she speaks
>> Spanish." True, but I figured someone who calls me "El mijo" probably
>> does.
>>
>
> "The my son"? She's right, she doesn't speak Spanish.
Right, she doesn't speak Spanish, except for affectionate nicknames and
such.
Xho
Lee Ayrton
> On Nov 19, 6:51�pm, Dover Beach <moon.blanc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The U.S. South has a tradition of addressing women as "Miss Firstname".
>> It's really handy. �The lady I talked about yesterday just called me to
>> see if I could drive her again tomorrow (unfortunately, I'm committed at
>> the library) and she addressed me as Miss <MyFirstName>. �It was very
>> easy to fall back into my years in North Carolina and address her as
>> Miss Marilyn. �I guess it's kind of like Russians using the patronym:
>> Dounia Romanovna instead of Ms Raskolnikov or just Dounia. It's friendly
>> but respectful; not condescending or diminishing. �Since I like it, I
>> think everyone should start using it right away. �
>
> It drives me up the wall. I don't know why. The kids I coach in
> fencing call me "O'Neill", which is fine, but every semester I have to
> beat a few of them out of calling me "Mr Kevin", which sounds to me
> like something you'd hear in the first twenty minutes of an Arnold
> movie about him teaching kindergarten, or "Coach", which I just don't
> like.
When I worked in a large state institution of the mentally retarded, one
of my clients, one of my _favorite_ clients, tended to call everyone "Mr.
<firstname>". So I was Mr. Lee, and Barbara was Mr. Barbara and so on.
Now whenever I hear that construction that client comes immediately to
mind.
Hactar
Did he (B) get beat up a lot as a kid?
--
I firmly believed we should not march into Baghdad ...To occupy Iraq
would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world
against us and make ... a latter-day Arab hero assigning young soldiers
to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator[.] -- GHWB
Lee
> In article <Xns9CC941A6826E2moonblanchedgmail...@130.133.1.4>,
> Dover Beach <moon.blanc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I think we're establishing that there's a strong gender
> > difference to the practice.
>
> My mother said that when she was young, it was common to address a much
> older cousin by their first name prefaced with "Cousin". I think that is
> a useful practice. My parents would visit one of her cousins (roughly
> her age) occasionally, and I never knew how to address him. We were
> taught not to call adults by their first names, and the relationship was
> too close for "Mister" to be appropriate. Since my parents never
> instructed me to call him "Cousin Walter", I just avoided ever calling
> him by name.
>
> --
In 50 years of marriage, my mother hasn't called my father by his
name. Or title. I don't know if she found it useful. I always
figured it was because he was standing right in front of her and he
already knew his name.
QueBarbara
wrote:
>
>When I worked in a large state institution of the mentally retarded, one
>of my clients, one of my _favorite_ clients, tended to call everyone "Mr.
><firstname>". So I was Mr. Lee, and Barbara was Mr. Barbara and so on.
>
>Now whenever I hear that construction that client comes immediately to
>mind.
>
--
QueBarbara
Hactar
Lee <skol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 20, 12:51�pm, Hank Gillette <hankgille...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In article <Xns9CC941A6826E2moonblanchedgmail...@130.133.1.4>,
> > �Dover Beach <moon.blanc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah, I think we're establishing that there's a strong gender
> > > difference to the practice.
> >
> > My mother said that when she was young, it was common to address a much
> > older cousin by their first name prefaced with "Cousin". I think that is
> > a useful practice. My parents would visit one of her cousins (roughly
> > her age) occasionally, and I never knew how to address him. We were
> > taught not to call adults by their first names, and the relationship was
> > too close for "Mister" to be appropriate. Since my parents never
> > instructed me to call him "Cousin Walter", I just avoided ever calling
> > him by name.
>
> name. Or title. I don't know if she found it useful. I always
> figured it was because he was standing right in front of her and he
> already knew his name.
Apparenly your mother doesn't do the "holler across the house, through a
bathroom door, into a running shower" thing. Lucky you. When mine
does, all I hear is
"Hey Eben!"
"What?"
"mumble mumble mumble, OK?"
(lather, rinse, repeat)
My sister and I call my father by his name. Incongruously we call our
mother "Mom". Go figure.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
PISCES: Try to avoid any Virgos or Leos with the Ebola
virus. You are the Lord of the Dance, no matter what those
idiots at work say. -- Weird Al, _Your Horoscope for Today_
Lee
> In article <0d160263-44c7-489c-b888-c93d1bf51...@g1g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Lee <skoler...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 20, 12:51 pm, Hank Gillette <hankgille...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > In article <Xns9CC941A6826E2moonblanchedgmail...@130.133.1.4>,
> > > Dover Beach <moon.blanc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Yeah, I think we're establishing that there's a strong gender
> > > > difference to the practice.
>
> > > My mother said that when she was young, it was common to address a much
> > > older cousin by their first name prefaced with "Cousin". I think that is
> > > a useful practice. My parents would visit one of her cousins (roughly
> > > her age) occasionally, and I never knew how to address him. We were
> > > taught not to call adults by their first names, and the relationship was
> > > too close for "Mister" to be appropriate. Since my parents never
> > > instructed me to call him "Cousin Walter", I just avoided ever calling
> > > him by name.
>
> > In 50 years of marriage, my mother hasn't called my father by his
> > name. Or title. I don't know if she found it useful. I always
> > figured it was because he was standing right in front of her and he
> > already knew his name.
>
> Apparenly your mother doesn't do the "holler across the house, through a
> bathroom door, into a running shower" thing. Lucky you. When mine
> does, all I hear is
>
> "Hey Eben!"
>
> "What?"
>
> "mumble mumble mumble, OK?"
My mother (bless her little heart) doesn't holler across the house
because she is perpetually in mumble mumble mode.
Which ambiguous phrasing helps a lot if you are trying to get
permission to do something you want to do but know the answer would be
"no" if not for the uninterpretable mumble