Feeling stupid, four cents worth

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Jim Beaver

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Oct 31, 2008, 4:05:56 PM10/31/08
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My kid is in second grade. She brought home a homework problem that stumped
her. It stumped me, too. I did not think I was stupid, but now I wonder.

The problem is one of seeing things differently depending on the arrangement
of things. The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.

The other similar problems in the homework were simple (remove one
matchstick from the arrangement of four squares and leave three squares,
etc.). This one left me bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. And
bedraggled.

What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)

Jim Beaver

Mark Brader

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Oct 31, 2008, 4:19:18 PM10/31/08
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Jim Beaver:

> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
...
> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)

I think what you missed is that the person who wrote the question
thinks that a straight line of three pennies can be formed from a
stack of two pennies and a separate "stack" of one penny.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Jargon leakage is getting to be a real problem;
m...@vex.net | sb should do sth about it." --R.H. Draney

Boron Elgar

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Oct 31, 2008, 4:21:33 PM10/31/08
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T-shape.

HVS

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Oct 31, 2008, 4:27:35 PM10/31/08
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On 31 Oct 2008, Boron Elgar wrote

?? If the top bar of the T has three pennies, the vertical bar will
only have two, won't it?

--
Cheers,
Harvey

Mike Williams

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Oct 31, 2008, 4:33:04 PM10/31/08
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Perhaps you have to consider one pile of two pennies plus one pile of
one penny to be a straight line.

2-------1
|
|
|
|
1


There's also a spherical geometry solution if you consider a geodesic to
be a straight line: One penny at the North Pole, one at the South Pole
and the other two anywhere else, say London and Moscow. The zero
meridian goes through the N-Pole, London, and S-Pole. The 37th meridian
goes through N-Pole, Moscow, S-Pole.


--
Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

Dancing Ant

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Oct 31, 2008, 5:00:55 PM10/31/08
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In addition to the suggestions here, I suppose one could also say
pedantically that a line of four pennies contains in it two lines of
three pennies (the three on the right end of the line and the three on
the left end of the line). Even more pedantically, it contains four
lines of three pennies (remove any one penny leaves three pennies in a
line, although maybe not all touching).

--
Mark Thornquist

Jeff Wisnia

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Oct 31, 2008, 5:08:25 PM10/31/08
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Do let us know next week what the "official school answer" is.

The solutions presented so far seem a little advanced for second grade work.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Paul Ciszek

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Oct 31, 2008, 5:16:57 PM10/31/08
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In article <GyJOk.5392$ZP4....@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com>,

I think I see the following problem:

There are three pennies in line A
There are three pennies in line B
In order for there to be only four pennies total, that would mean that
two pennies are in both line A and line B. Call those pennies 1 and 2.
If pennies 1 and 2 are in different places, then lines A and B intersect
at *two different locations*. In Euclidian geometery, that doesn't happen.
But pennies 1 and 2 cannot be in the same location, because they are solid
objects. Even if you put one on top of the other, one will be higher and
your two lines won't actually cross in 3D space. If the teacher had said
"four dots" or "four X's", you could have a solution--only if you allowed
two of the dots or X's to overlap, like this:

1&2 . . 3


4 .


--
Please reply to: | "One of the hardest parts of my job is to
pciszek at panix dot com | connect Iraq to the War on Terror."
Autoreply is disabled | -- G. W. Bush, 9/7/2006

Jim Beaver

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Oct 31, 2008, 6:37:11 PM10/31/08
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"Mark Brader" <m...@vex.net> wrote in message
news:cdKdnb8TaOrb9ZbU...@vex.net...

> Jim Beaver:
>> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
>> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
> ...
>> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)
>
> I think what you missed is that the person who wrote the question
> thinks that a straight line of three pennies can be formed from a
> stack of two pennies and a separate "stack" of one penny.

First answer wins the prize (despite the "cheat" of stacked pennies being
considered to form a straight line in 3-D space). The teacher filled me in
on it this afternoon and tried to convince me not to be embarrassed at not
being smarter than a second grader.

Jim Beaver

Jeff Wisnia

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Oct 31, 2008, 6:50:35 PM10/31/08
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Jim Beaver wrote:


I would have asked that teacher whether she thought that problem/answer
up herself or if it can be found in a published schoolbook. <G>

Les Albert

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Oct 31, 2008, 7:16:04 PM10/31/08
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On Oct 31, 2:08�pm, Jeff Wisnia <jwis...@conversent.net> wrote:
> Jim Beaver wrote:
> > My kid is in second grade. �She brought home a homework problem that
> > stumped her. �It stumped me, too. �I did not think I was stupid, but now
> > I wonder.
> > The problem is one of seeing things differently depending on the
> > arrangement of things. �The question was, basically, how can you take
> > four pennies, line them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in
> > each line.
> > The other similar problems in the homework were simple (remove one
> > matchstick from the arrangement of four squares and leave three squares,
> > etc.). �This one left me bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. �And
> > bedraggled.
> > What am I missing? �(Besides a cerebral cortex?)

> Do let us know next week what the "official school answer" is.


> The solutions presented so far seem a little advanced for second grade work.


I think so too. Here is a whole page of matchstick puzzles:

www.learning-tree.org.uk/stickpuzzles/stick_puzzles.htm

Les

Charles Bishop

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Oct 31, 2008, 8:16:50 PM10/31/08
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In article <uOX008BA...@econym.demon.co.uk>, Mike Williams
<nos...@econym.demon.co.uk> wrote:

In that case, (P is a penny, ---- shows a straight line):

---------
P P P P
---------

--
charles

ZBicyclist

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Oct 31, 2008, 9:49:28 PM10/31/08
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Mike Williams wrote:

> There's also a spherical geometry solution if you consider a
> geodesic
> to be a straight line: One penny at the North Pole, one at the
> South
> Pole and the other two anywhere else, say London and Moscow. The
> zero
> meridian goes through the N-Pole, London, and S-Pole. The 37th
> meridian goes through N-Pole, Moscow, S-Pole.

I like this answer a lot better.

The "stack" answer isn't two straight lines by any apparent
commonsense notion of "straight".

The geodesic example does work -- e.g. great circle routes are
"straight" from this perspective.


ZBicyclist

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Oct 31, 2008, 9:59:00 PM10/31/08
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Mark Brader wrote:
> Jim Beaver:
>> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
>> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
>> ...
>> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)
>
> I think what you missed is that the person who wrote the question
> thinks that a straight line of three pennies can be formed from a
> stack of two pennies and a separate "stack" of one penny.

Wait a minute.

If we are going to say that a stacked arrangement works because the
pennies are in a straight line from above (ABD) or below (ACD):

B
A C D (viewed from the side)


Then we can arrange the pennies in a square, viewed from the top as

A B
C D

because the pennies are in a straight line ABD when viewed from the
upper right side, and in a straight line ACD when viewed from the
lower left side.

But it's an unusual definition of a "straight line" to say the line
only has to be straight when viewed from a certain angle.


Mark Brader

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Oct 31, 2008, 10:53:12 PM10/31/08
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> > I think what you missed is that the person who wrote the question
> > thinks that a straight line of three pennies can be formed from a
> > stack of two pennies and a separate "stack" of one penny.

> Wait a minute.
>
> If we are going to say that a stacked arrangement works because ...

*We* aren't. The *teacher* is.
--
Mark Brader | I rise to speak ... well, actually, I don't rise,
Toronto | nor do I speak, but I lounge to type in his defense.
m...@vex.net | -- Bob Lipton

Greg Goss

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Oct 31, 2008, 11:00:27 PM10/31/08
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Mike Williams <nos...@econym.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>There's also a spherical geometry solution if you consider a geodesic to
>be a straight line: One penny at the North Pole, one at the South Pole
>and the other two anywhere else, say London and Moscow. The zero
>meridian goes through the N-Pole, London, and S-Pole. The 37th meridian
>goes through N-Pole, Moscow, S-Pole.

I love AFCA. Jim's gotta print this out and take it to the second
grade teacher.

What kind of arrangement did you make for Vancouver education? I
missed the conclusion of that discussion.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27

Bob Ward

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Nov 1, 2008, 1:26:09 AM11/1/08
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Count again.

Jim Beaver

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Nov 1, 2008, 1:38:49 AM11/1/08
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"Greg Goss" <go...@gossg.org> wrote in message
news:6n1v2jF...@mid.individual.net...

I realized that transplanting my daughter to Vancouver to sit with a
stranger (babysitter) and another stranger (teacher) for six months while I
worked 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. five days a week was going to do neither of us any
good. And she expressed severe homesickness for her friends and her nanny
after only two days away. I decided to leave her in school in L.A. with her
nanny and come home as often as I could. Flew home this weekend for
Halloween and am having a wonderful time.

Jim Beaver

Guillermo el Gato

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Nov 1, 2008, 8:35:42 AM11/1/08
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Did you ask the teacher what it was supposed to teach?

Kajikit

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Nov 1, 2008, 10:59:37 AM11/1/08
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Right angles. Oh hang on, that doesn't work either... I dunno! If it
was five it would be easy - are you sure it wasn't a typo?

Jerry Bauer

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Nov 1, 2008, 12:01:24 PM11/1/08
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Kajikit <kaj...@jagcon.com> wrote:

There's nothing in the problem, as posed, that says that you cannot
provide another penny.


Les Albert

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Nov 1, 2008, 12:55:15 PM11/1/08
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:37:11 -0700, "Jim Beaver"
><jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:

> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
> ...
> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)


Is this the answer?

1 2 3
O O O O
1 2 3

Les

Lee Ayrton

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Nov 1, 2008, 2:07:32 PM11/1/08
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On Sat, 1 Nov 2008, Jerry Bauer wrote:

> Kajikit <kaj...@jagcon.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:05:56 -0700, "Jim Beaver"
>> <jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:
>>
>>> My kid is in second grade. She brought home a homework problem that stumped
>>> her. It stumped me, too. I did not think I was stupid, but now I wonder.
>>>
>>> The problem is one of seeing things differently depending on the arrangement
>>> of things. The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
>>> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
>>>
>>> The other similar problems in the homework were simple (remove one
>>> matchstick from the arrangement of four squares and leave three squares,
>>> etc.). This one left me bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. And
>>> bedraggled.
>>>
>>> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)
>>

>> Right angles. Oh hang on, that doesn't work either... I dunno! If it
>> was five it would be easy - are you sure it wasn't a typo?
>
> There's nothing in the problem, as posed, that says that you cannot
> provide another penny.

Kobiashi Maru!

--
"I have never yet encountered a semi-trailer in my bathroom." Jen puts a
bright face on the state of the transit system in AFC-A.

Greg Goss

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Nov 1, 2008, 2:13:33 PM11/1/08
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Kajikit <kaj...@jagcon.com> wrote:

I like either the two collinear lines, or the two geodesics answers
best. If the teacher is trying to encourage "out-of-the-box"
thinking, then ...

Les Albert <lalb...@aol.com> wrote:

> 1 2 3
>O O O O
>1 2 3

... is the best answer. (Les wasn't first with it, but drew it best.)

bill van

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Nov 1, 2008, 2:28:07 PM11/1/08
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In article
<f358aac8-748d-4326...@b31g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Dancing Ant <care...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Oct 31, 1:05 pm, "Jim Beaver" <jumble...@prodigy.spam> wrote:
> > My kid is in second grade.  She brought home a homework problem that stumped
> > her.  It stumped me, too.  I did not think I was stupid, but now I wonder.
> >
> > The problem is one of seeing things differently depending on the arrangement
> > of things.  The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
> > them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
> >
> > The other similar problems in the homework were simple (remove one
> > matchstick from the arrangement of four squares and leave three squares,
> > etc.).  This one left me bewitched, bothered, and bewildered.  And
> > bedraggled.
> >
> > What am I missing?  (Besides a cerebral cortex?)
> >
> > Jim Beaver
>
> In addition to the suggestions here, I suppose one could also say
> pedantically that a line of four pennies contains in it two lines of
> three pennies (the three on the right end of the line and the three on
> the left end of the line).

That was my thought, too. And since this is Grade 2, it shouldn't get
any more complicated than that. It seems like a good way to encourage
outside-the-box thinking at that age.

> Even more pedantically, it contains four
> lines of three pennies (remove any one penny leaves three pennies in a
> line, although maybe not all touching).
>

The weakness there is that except when all four are lined up, only one
line of three exists at one time. The problem asks for two.

--
bill
remove my country for e-mail

Lee Ayrton

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Nov 1, 2008, 2:40:56 PM11/1/08
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"How to embarrass your parents".

Lee Ayrton

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Nov 1, 2008, 3:29:18 PM11/1/08
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On Sat, 1 Nov 2008, bill van wrote:

>> In addition to the suggestions here, I suppose one could also say
>> pedantically that a line of four pennies contains in it two lines of
>> three pennies (the three on the right end of the line and the three on
>> the left end of the line).
>
> That was my thought, too. And since this is Grade 2, it shouldn't get
> any more complicated than that. It seems like a good way to encourage
> outside-the-box thinking at that age.
>
>> Even more pedantically, it contains four lines of three pennies
>> (remove any one penny leaves three pennies in a line, although maybe
>> not all touching).
>>
> The weakness there is that except when all four are lined up, only one
> line of three exists at one time. The problem asks for two.

If the context is "line segments" -- and I've no idea if 2nd graders are
exposed to line segments -- 4 points in a line define 6 line segments
between any set of 4 or fewer points: 1 line segment of 4 points, 2 of 3
points and 3 of 2 points.

Peter Ward

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Nov 1, 2008, 4:36:28 PM11/1/08
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On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:07:32 -0400, Lee Ayrton wrote:

>On Sat, 1 Nov 2008, Jerry Bauer wrote:
>
>> Kajikit <kaj...@jagcon.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:05:56 -0700, "Jim Beaver"
>>> <jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My kid is in second grade. She brought home a homework problem that stumped
>>>> her. It stumped me, too. I did not think I was stupid, but now I wonder.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is one of seeing things differently depending on the arrangement
>>>> of things. The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
>>>> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
>>>>
>>>> The other similar problems in the homework were simple (remove one
>>>> matchstick from the arrangement of four squares and leave three squares,
>>>> etc.). This one left me bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. And
>>>> bedraggled.
>>>>
>>>> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)
>>>
>>> Right angles. Oh hang on, that doesn't work either... I dunno! If it
>>> was five it would be easy - are you sure it wasn't a typo?
>>
>> There's nothing in the problem, as posed, that says that you cannot
>> provide another penny.
>
>Kobiashi Maru!

Gesundheit!

--

Peter

I'm an alien
email: home at peteward dot gotadsl dot co dot uk
Death is too permanent for my tastes.
- Groo

M C Hamster

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Nov 2, 2008, 1:55:02 AM11/2/08
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Thank God for that "No Parent Left Behind" program.

--
M C Hamster "Big Wheel Keep on Turning" -- Creedence Clearwater Revival

M C Hamster

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Nov 2, 2008, 1:00:01 AM11/2/08
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:08:25 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
<jwi...@conversent.net> wrote:

>Jim Beaver wrote:
>> My kid is in second grade. She brought home a homework problem that
>> stumped her. It stumped me, too. I did not think I was stupid, but now
>> I wonder.
>>
>> The problem is one of seeing things differently depending on the
>> arrangement of things. The question was, basically, how can you take
>> four pennies, line them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in
>> each line.
>>
>> The other similar problems in the homework were simple (remove one
>> matchstick from the arrangement of four squares and leave three squares,
>> etc.). This one left me bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. And
>> bedraggled.
>>
>> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)
>>
>> Jim Beaver
>
>
>Do let us know next week what the "official school answer" is.
>
>The solutions presented so far seem a little advanced for second grade work.
>

We never got an answer to that drawing that Lesmond posted, either.
That continues to haunt me.

M C Hamster

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Nov 2, 2008, 1:07:02 AM11/2/08
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On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 09:01:24 -0700, use...@bauerstar.com (Jerry Bauer)
wrote:

That's absolutely right.

So the answer is

0
0 0 0
0

which indeed consists of four pennies (plus another penny) lined up in


two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.

I think we will were still working on basic counting, back in 2nd
grade.

Mike Williams

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Nov 2, 2008, 3:32:48 AM11/2/08
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Wasn't it Jim Beaver who wrote:
>The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line them
>up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.

There's a fifth, equally ugly, possible solution:

Place the four pennies in a "Y" formation, but draw the lines in a "V"
shape, and consider the pennies to have non-zero size.

A B
C
D

The line AD passes through part of C. The line BD passes through a
different part of C. So I could say that there are three pennies in each
of those lines. It's a bit of a strain, but not much more so than any of
the other four suggestions.

[I've crossposted this to rec.puzzles. The guys there can probably think
of dozens more ugly solutions.]

--
Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

humunculus

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Nov 2, 2008, 10:19:38 AM11/2/08
to

You can get the same result by placing two pennies beside each other
on the table, touching at an edge, then stacking the other two
centered on the point where the first two touch.

--riverman

ZBicyclist

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Nov 2, 2008, 10:28:38 AM11/2/08
to

This is good. Have the AB pair located, say, 3 miles away. The
lines ACD and BCD will then be straight within a measurement error
of .00000001 or so. (didn't actually calculate it)

--

Mike Kruger
"What information consumes is rather obvious: it consumes the
attention
of its recipients. Hence a wealth of information creates a poverty
of
attention, and a need to allocate that attention efficiently among
the
overabundance of information sources that might consume it." -
Herbert
A. Simon


snapdragon31

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Nov 2, 2008, 11:35:03 AM11/2/08
to

It would be easy if the question is for four dollars.
Arrange them (2 1-dollar coins and 1 2-dollar coin as below)

A
BC

Where A and C are 1-dollar coins and B is a 2-dollar coin.

The four pennies problem is bit more complicated. I have never heard
of a 2-penny coin. I can only find a 2 penny stamp from the website
below.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:1882_Queen_Victoria_2_penny_mauve.JPG

If 'coin' is not the necessary requirement in this problem then we can
replace the 1-dollar coins with 1-penny stamps and the 2-dollar coin
with a 2-penny stamp.

Mark Brader

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Nov 2, 2008, 12:22:44 PM11/2/08
to
Mike Williams:
> There's a fifth, equally ugly, possible solution...
> [I've crossposted this to rec.puzzles. ...]

Without mentioning the answers already posted, including the intended one!
Not good technique, Mike, unless you're *trying* for a repetitive thread.
--
Mark Brader | "I thought it was a big joke.
Toronto | Dr. Brader is known for joking around a lot."
m...@vex.net | --Matthew McKnight

Mark Brader

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Nov 2, 2008, 12:37:42 PM11/2/08
to
>>> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
>>> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.

> It would be easy if the question is for four dollars.
> Arrange them (2 1-dollar coins and 1 2-dollar coin as below) ...

> The four pennies problem is bit more complicated. I have never heard
> of a 2-penny coin.

The original context was US coinage, where "penny" is slang for a 1-cent
coin. (Which is a pity for this answer, because of course the US *does*
have 2-cent coins. They were last minted in... just a moment... 1873.)

The solution is also impossible in British coinage, because the plural
given was "pennies", not "pence". "Pence" is the only plural used when
the word refers to the unit of currency.

Nice idea, though.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Do right; have fun; make money."
m...@vex.net --Ian Darwin on Yuri Rubinsky (1952-96)

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Paul Ciszek

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Nov 2, 2008, 12:47:37 PM11/2/08
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In article <j6ydnawcTr95fJDU...@vex.net>,

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>Mike Williams:
>> There's a fifth, equally ugly, possible solution...
>> [I've crossposted this to rec.puzzles. ...]
>
>Without mentioning the answers already posted, including the intended one!
>Not good technique, Mike, unless you're *trying* for a repetitive thread.

Or he wants the community there to approach the problem fresh, without
being influenced by other people's solutions.

--
Please reply to: | "One of the hardest parts of my job is to
pciszek at panix dot com | connect Iraq to the War on Terror."
Autoreply is disabled | -- G. W. Bush, 9/7/2006

Charles Bishop

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Nov 2, 2008, 12:50:31 PM11/2/08
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In article <ua2pg41guefqfu3dd...@4ax.com>, Les Albert
<lalb...@aol.com> wrote:

In that font it surely isn't, unless you have an invisible (fifth) penny.


--
charles, no silver to be seen, bishop

Charles Bishop

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Nov 2, 2008, 12:51:15 PM11/2/08
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Does his drawing, as seen here, look the same as when you saw it?

--
chrles

Les Albert

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Nov 2, 2008, 12:50:56 PM11/2/08
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I think you need to get rid of your Commodore 64 computer and get a
modern machine.

Les

Charles Bishop

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Nov 2, 2008, 1:02:55 PM11/2/08
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In article <ndgqg4tcmej8ksqpk...@4ax.com>, M C Hamster
<davo...@speakeasy.nospam.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 09:01:24 -0700, use...@bauerstar.com (Jerry Bauer)
>wrote:

[snip]

>>
>>There's nothing in the problem, as posed, that says that you cannot
>>provide another penny.
>>
>
>That's absolutely right.
>
>So the answer is
>
> 0
>0 0 0
> 0
>
>which indeed consists of four pennies (plus another penny) lined up in
>two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.

One line looks a little bendy.

On a similar theme, I had one of those puzzles that consisted of pieces,
each piece consisted of a few cubes glued together in odd shapes. When
solved the shapes could be put togethr to form a larger cube. A family was
over for dinner one night and their child was working on the puzzle. He
came in to announce that he had "solved" it. Which he had, in a way, by
taking one of the pieces and breaking off a smaller cube so that the
pience (minus a cube) fit and then adding the lone cube to assemble the
larger cube.

--
charles

Peter Ward

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Nov 2, 2008, 1:52:47 PM11/2/08
to

Soma Cube?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_cube

I have a set of those, I made them myself with some wooden cubes, of
which my dad had a large box, and some of the white PVA wood glue.
They've been bashed about over the years (at least 30 of them by now),
and none of the pieces has, so far at least, broken.

--

Peter

I'm an alien
email: home at peteward dot gotadsl dot co dot uk

Songs like that make we want to commit Sudoku.
- Artyw

Peter Ward

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Nov 2, 2008, 5:53:56 PM11/2/08
to
On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:37:42 -0600, Mark Brader wrote:

>>>> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
>>>> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
>
>> It would be easy if the question is for four dollars.
>> Arrange them (2 1-dollar coins and 1 2-dollar coin as below) ...
>
>> The four pennies problem is bit more complicated. I have never heard
>> of a 2-penny coin.
>
>The original context was US coinage, where "penny" is slang for a 1-cent
>coin. (Which is a pity for this answer, because of course the US *does*
>have 2-cent coins. They were last minted in... just a moment... 1873.)
>
>The solution is also impossible in British coinage, because the plural
>given was "pennies", not "pence". "Pence" is the only plural used when
>the word refers to the unit of currency.

Not so. In normal usage, four pence is an amount of money, four
pennies is four penny coins.

>Nice idea, though.

--

Peter

I'm an alien
email: home at peteward dot gotadsl dot co dot uk

All cats are, in a very real sense, in the kitchen meowing for food even when they appear to be somewhere else.

Mark Brader

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Nov 2, 2008, 6:41:55 PM11/2/08
to
Mark Brader:

>> The solution is also impossible in British coinage, because the plural
>> given was "pennies", not "pence". "Pence" is the only plural used when
>> the word refers to the unit of currency.

Peter Ward:


> Not so. In normal usage, four pence is an amount of money, four
> pennies is four penny coins.

So, then, by "not so", you mean "exactly".
--
Mark Brader | "...it's always easier to see the mud when it's
Toronto | coming toward your side rather than from your side."
m...@vex.net | --Mike Kruger

Hactar

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Nov 2, 2008, 7:37:08 PM11/2/08
to
In article <u2qrg49bripdavdi5...@4ax.com>,

Les Albert <lalb...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:50:31 -0800, ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles
> Bishop) wrote:
>
> >In article <ua2pg41guefqfu3dd...@4ax.com>, Les Albert
> ><lalb...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:37:11 -0700, "Jim Beaver"
> >>><jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
> >>> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
> >>> ...
> >>> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)
> >>
> >>
> >>Is this the answer?
> >>
> >> 1 2 3
> >>O O O O
> >>1 2 3
> >>
> >
> >In that font it surely isn't, unless you have an invisible (fifth) penny.
>
> I think you need to get rid of your Commodore 64 computer and get a
> modern machine.


Riiight. And you telepathically transmitted to each of us the typeface
to use to make that line up the way you intended.

--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP http://royalty.mine.nu:81
Are you confident that you appear to be professional in your electronic
communication? Consider this: A: No
Q: Can I top post? from ni...@xx.co.uk

Richard Heathfield

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Nov 2, 2008, 11:09:47 PM11/2/08
to
Mark Brader said:

> Mark Brader:
>>> The solution is also impossible in British coinage, because the plural
>>> given was "pennies", not "pence". "Pence" is the only plural used when
>>> the word refers to the unit of currency.
>
> Peter Ward:
>> Not so. In normal usage, four pence is an amount of money, four
>> pennies is four penny coins.
>
> So, then, by "not so", you mean "exactly".

Er, no. If a solution is possible at all (and it's trivial - for example,
you can just place coin A on top of coin B, with coins C and D both
touching coin B and CBD forming a right angle), it is possible in British
coinage, using four pennies (four penny coins). The fact that they are
collectively valued at a monetary amount of four pence is irrelevant to
the problem, and I'm surprised you bothered to raise the fact in the first
place.

To illustrate this, let's ask a question with the same structure, but with
a different word in place: "The question was, basically, how can you take
four tanners, line them up in two straight lines, with three tanners in
each line." The fact that four tanners come to two bob is irrelevant to
the problem. And so is the fact that four pennies come to four pence.

Thus your claim "The solution is ... impossible in British coinage" is
incorrect.

--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999

Mark Brader

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Nov 3, 2008, 12:02:52 AM11/3/08
to
Mark Brader:
>>>> The solution is also impossible in British coinage, because the plural
>>>> given was "pennies", not "pence". "Pence" is the only plural used when
>>>> the word refers to the unit of currency.

Richard Heathfield writes:
> Er, no. If a solution is possible at all...

I said *the* solution, not *a* solution. The solution of using a
coin worth 2 pennies, as given in the post I was responding to.

> (and it's trivial - for example, you can just place coin A on top
> of coin B, with coins C and D both touching coin B and CBD forming
> a right angle),

And so the thread comes full circle, as espected after the carelessly
designed cross-posting.

Of course that is *not* a solution to the question as stated, because
no three of the coins are in a straight line. And, of course, it *was*
also the expected answer. And, of course, this was already pointed out
in alt.fan.cecil-adams.

> it is possible in British
> coinage, using four pennies (four penny coins). The fact that they are
> collectively valued at a monetary amount of four pence is irrelevant to
> the problem, and I'm surprised you bothered to raise the fact in the first
> place.

It was relevant to the solution that I was responding to. Please read
more carefully.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Mark is probably right about something,
m...@vex.net | but I forget what" -- Rayan Zachariassen

Richard Heathfield

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Nov 3, 2008, 12:29:12 AM11/3/08
to
Mark Brader said:

> Mark Brader:
>>>>> The solution is also impossible in British coinage, because the
>>>>> plural
>>>>> given was "pennies", not "pence". "Pence" is the only plural used
>>>>> when the word refers to the unit of currency.
>
> Richard Heathfield writes:
>> Er, no. If a solution is possible at all...
>
> I said *the* solution, not *a* solution. The solution of using a
> coin worth 2 pennies, as given in the post I was responding to.

I believe the word is "oops". Sorry, Mark.

>
>> (and it's trivial - for example, you can just place coin A on top
>> of coin B, with coins C and D both touching coin B and CBD forming
>> a right angle),
>
> And so the thread comes full circle, as espected after the carelessly
> designed cross-posting.
>
> Of course that is *not* a solution to the question as stated, because
> no three of the coins are in a straight line.

Um, that depends on how you draw the line. :-) If you insist on collinear
centres, then yes, you're right. But if that restriction is removed, and
the line need only pass through some part of each coin, a solution becomes
possible.

<snip>

Peter Ward

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Nov 3, 2008, 2:46:17 AM11/3/08
to
On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:41:55 -0600, Mark Brader wrote:

>Mark Brader:
>>> The solution is also impossible in British coinage, because the plural
>>> given was "pennies", not "pence". "Pence" is the only plural used when
>>> the word refers to the unit of currency.
>
>Peter Ward:
>> Not so. In normal usage, four pence is an amount of money, four
>> pennies is four penny coins.
>
>So, then, by "not so", you mean "exactly".

Uh, probably.

--

Peter

I'm an alien
email: home at peteward dot gotadsl dot co dot uk

I took the risk of assuming he intended to make sense.
- Bill van

Opus the Penguin

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Nov 3, 2008, 10:53:33 AM11/3/08
to
Les Albert (lalb...@aol.com) wrote:

It doesn't line up in fixed-width font on my modern machine. Does it
still line up for you in the quoted portion above?

--
Opus the Penguin
I've got a black belt in buffet, but I still don't like the Jell-o
oozing over the crab legs. - Bob Ward

Les Albert

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Nov 3, 2008, 11:50:52 AM11/3/08
to
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:53:33 +0000 (UTC), Opus the Penguin
<opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Les Albert (lalb...@aol.com) wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:50:31 -0800, ctbi...@earthlink.net
>> (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>>>In article <ua2pg41guefqfu3dd...@4ax.com>, Les
>>>Albert <lalb...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:37:11 -0700, "Jim Beaver"
>>>>><jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:

>>>>> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies,
>>>>> line them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each
>>>>> line. ...
>>>>> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)

>>>>Is this the answer?
>>>> 1 2 3
>>>>O O O O
>>>>1 2 3

>>>In that font it surely isn't, unless you have an invisible (fifth)
>>>penny.

>> I think you need to get rid of your Commodore 64 computer and get
>> a modern machine.

>It doesn't line up in fixed-width font on my modern machine. Does it
>still line up for you in the quoted portion above?


Yes. It lines up in every posted response that includes it in my
Agent newsreader, and even in Google Groups.

Les

Greg Goss

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Nov 4, 2008, 3:14:54 AM11/4/08
to
Les Albert <lalb...@aol.com> wrote:

>>>>> 1 2 3
>>>>>O O O O
>>>>>1 2 3
>

>>It doesn't line up in fixed-width font on my modern machine. Does it
>>still line up for you in the quoted portion above?
>
>
>Yes. It lines up in every posted response that includes it in my
>Agent newsreader, and even in Google Groups.

In my reader, the middle and lower ones line up, but the top one is
off. The 1 is in the right place, but the 2 and 3 are badly placed.
I don't understand how two lines can be good but not the third.

It's a non-proportional font, but the bottom line and the portion of
the top line including and following the 1 are the same characters.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27

Lee Ayrton

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Nov 4, 2008, 1:52:32 PM11/4/08
to

And here in PINE, the manifestion all along has been:

[space][space][space]1[space]2[space][space]3
0[space]0[space]0[space]0
1[space][space]2[space][space]3

So - the top line is off-set right, with the "1" appearing between the
middle two "0"s. The middle line alternates "0"s with spaces. The bottom
line lines up under the leading "0", the "2" appears between the middle
"0"s and the "3" is under the trailing "0"

I don't see the usual tell-tale marks of Microsoft mucking around with the
[space] characters, though. Something that they "improved" a year or so
back collapses passing spaces to some non-standard control character.

Was the intent this?

..1-2-3
0-0-0-0
1-2-3..


--
"I have never yet encountered a semi-trailer in my bathroom." Jen puts a
bright face on the state of the transit system in AFC-A.

Paul L. Madarasz

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Nov 4, 2008, 3:46:06 PM11/4/08
to
On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:50:56 -0800, Les Albert <lalb...@aol.com>
wrote, perhaps among other things:

Now you've got me all nostalgic for my 64.
--

"Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
-- Ed Abbey

Les Albert

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Nov 4, 2008, 6:17:26 PM11/4/08
to
On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:52:32 -0500, Lee Ayrton <lay...@panix.com>
wrote:

>..1-2-3
>0-0-0-0
>1-2-3..

Yes, except what I now see is that the top line is off-set with "1",
"2", and "3" appearing between the "0"s after the first "0". The
bottom line lines up perfectly with the 0-0-0-0s.

Les

Greg Goss

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Nov 5, 2008, 1:06:22 AM11/5/08
to

Did you ever read up on the lunix project?
http://lng.sourceforge.net/lunix/lng_shot.html

Paul L. Madarasz

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Nov 6, 2008, 4:52:16 PM11/6/08
to
On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 23:06:22 -0700, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote,
perhaps among other things:

Is there anything the Commie couldn't do?

Paul L. Madarasz

unread,
Nov 6, 2008, 4:53:45 PM11/6/08
to
On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 23:06:22 -0700, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote,
perhaps among other things:

Is there anything the Commie couldn't do?

Charles Bishop

unread,
Nov 12, 2008, 11:03:15 PM11/12/08
to
In article <u2qrg49bripdavdi5...@4ax.com>, Les Albert
<lalb...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:50:31 -0800, ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles
>Bishop) wrote:
>
>>In article <ua2pg41guefqfu3dd...@4ax.com>, Les Albert
>><lalb...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:37:11 -0700, "Jim Beaver"
>>>><jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The question was, basically, how can you take four pennies, line
>>>> them up in two straight lines, with three pennies in each line.
>>>> ...
>>>> What am I missing? (Besides a cerebral cortex?)
>>>
>>>
>>>Is this the answer?
>>>
>>> 1 2 3
>>>O O O O
>>>1 2 3
>>>
>>
>>In that font it surely isn't, unless you have an invisible (fifth) penny.
>
>I think you need to get rid of your Commodore 64 computer and get a
>modern machine.
>

OK, but will that fix what I see? I thought the default was fixed pitch
fonts, where what is above will line up with what is below and
vicey-versa. Are there machines (programs?) that don't need fixed pitch
and adjust everything so what I see is what the OP posted, even if it
includes fancy fonts and the like?

Whatever happened to standards, anyway? Why, back in my day . . .

--
charles

Sean Houtman

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Nov 14, 2008, 3:06:34 AM11/14/08
to
ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote in
news:ctbishop-1211082003160001@dialup-
4.246.42.100.dial1.sanjose1.level3.
net:

Mostly replaced by automatics.

4 pennies... take 3 pennies, and make a triangle with them. Put last
penny on top of a penny that is at a point of the triangle.

Sean

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

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