Energy efficient heaters
Opus the Penguin
be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option? It
doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an oil-filled radiator
type heater is fine. And it doesn't need to heat the whole room so much
as the area where someone is sitting at a desk or sleeping. So
something directional is fine.
It seems to me I asked this question last year, but never followed
through on getting a heater. The resulting gas bills were horrendous,
so I'm hoping I can get it done this year. Extra Opus Points (TM) to
anyone who provides a pointer to that previous thread, especially if
the advice I got last year directly contradicts any advice I get this
year.
What makes some heaters more energy efficient than others? What are the
trade-offs if any?
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Nick Spalding
<Xns9CC93F0086FF1op...@192.168.1.101>
on Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:18:39 GMT:
I have one of these:
<http://www.lpg-portable-heaters.co.uk/superser-f150-radiant.htm>
The barbecue uses the same cylinder in the summer time. I have two
cylinders so that I never need run out. I don't keep count but I reckon
I use 5 or 6 fills a year at EUR28 a time.
--
Nick Spalding
Mac
wrote:
That's way too open-ended a question. What is cheapest for you
depends at least as much on you, your house, and the surrounding
energy market as it does on the heater itself. As an example, the
unvented gas heater that works well for Mr. Spalding in his block
house in a marine climate might work very, very badly for a homeowner
in a frame continental climate. So, what's your house like, and how
much does electricity (and other stuff, as appropriate) cost in your
neck of the woods?
How much does your house leak? This cuts both ways. Unvented heaters
cause less long-term damage in leaky houses; sealing leaks and using
small elctric spot heaters are both options.
What other ways of trapping (as opposed to making) heat are available
and feasible?
Get this past the open-ended "why is there air?" level, and it can get
answered.
Dover Beach
news:Xns9CC93F0086FF1op...@192.168.1.101:
In the spirit of not actually answering your question and helpfully
suggesting things that probably won't work, have you considered electric
blankets? They're not so good for desk work, but for sleeping, they
work great, and they're cheap to operate.
Also, I took N. Jill's advice and got one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Pet-Supply-Imports-SnuggleSafe-
Heatpad/dp/B00008AJH
9
They work amazingly well. They hold heat forever. I don't sit at desks
unless someone's paying me, but if you do, you could put your feet on it
and be warm. I put it on the couch near my feet and toss a blanket over
feet and disk, and stay warm that way.
--
Dover
Greg Goss
Mainly you're converting electricity into heat. You start with a
number of joules of electricity and end up with joules of heat. In
general, any inefficiencies get converted into ... heat. I think a
lot of the claims of efficiency are bogus.
Directionality and contact are good. An electric blanket or a
directional foot-warmer are not heating the whole room.
How old is your house? In the eighties, I owned a house from the
thirties. Old double-hung windows are pretty drafty. If you can stop
the air leakage, you save a fortune. The "heat shrink" film attached
by double-sided tape made a huge difference in that house. However,
it was difficult to remove the next spring without stripping three or
four layers of paint from windowsills.
There are lots of other air leaks. Electrical outlets in outside
walls are famous for letting cold air in.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
DT
opusthepen...@gmail.com says...
I assume you are talking about portable electric heaters. All electric
heaters are considered to be 100% efficient. Every bit of energy you pay
for goes entirely into heat, unlike a gas heater or furnace, where the
efficiency of the heat exchange process comes into play.
So it comes down to how quickly you want heat and how long you want the
heat to last. Simple radiant heaters produce heat in seconds, as soon as
they are glowing, but they cool off just as quickly. Oil filled heaters
take much longer to produce detectable heat, but will keep producing it
during the off cycle.
But an 800 watt unit of each type will produce the same overall amount of
heat.
The radiant heater will heat a person, the wall behind them, etc,
anything sitting in the direct path of the radiant heat, but will not
heat the air much. Oil filled radiators will heat the air and circulate
it, but the radiant component is much less, so just pointing it at
yourself sitting ten feet away won't do much.
--
Dennis
Opus the Penguin
> On Nov 20, 4:18�am, Opus the Penguin
> <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill
>> won't be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient
>> option? It doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an
>> oil-filled radiator type heater is fine. And it doesn't need to
>> heat the whole room so much as the area where someone is sitting
>> at a desk or sleeping. So something directional is fine.
>>
>> It seems to me I asked this question last year, but never
>> followed through on getting a heater. The resulting gas bills
>> were horrendous, so I'm hoping I can get it done this year. Extra
>> Opus Points (TM) to anyone who provides a pointer to that
>> previous thread, especially if the advice I got last year
>> directly contradicts any advice I get this year.
>>
>> What makes some heaters more energy efficient than others? What
>> are the trade-offs if any?
>
> That's way too open-ended a question. What is cheapest for you
> depends at least as much on you, your house, and the surrounding
> energy market as it does on the heater itself. As an example, the
> unvented gas heater that works well for Mr. Spalding in his block
> house in a marine climate might work very, very badly for a
> homeowner in a frame continental climate. So, what's your house
> like,
1973 wood frame construction in the Kansas City area.
> and how much does electricity (and other stuff, as
> appropriate) cost in your neck of the woods?
>
I'm not sure. What's the relevance? Using less is using less, right?
> How much does your house leak? This cuts both ways. Unvented
> heaters cause less long-term damage in leaky houses; sealing leaks
> and using small elctric spot heaters are both options.
>
It's a little drafty. I'll get around to sealing the leaks some day.
As I say, I don't need a heater to heat a whole room so much as an
immediate space where a body is.
> What other ways of trapping (as opposed to making) heat are
> available and feasible?
>
I don't know.
Lars Eighner
the lovely and talented Opus the Penguin broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
> We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill won't
> be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option?
If the neighbor's yard is not too near your house, just remark casually that
the best turkey you ever had was deep-fat fried whole. Unfortunately this
will seldom work more than once per neighbor and the result will be somewhat
limited if the local fire department is on its toes.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> September 5925, 1993
303 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.
Mac
wrote:
No. You can't make a rational choice about electric heat saving money
over gas (or propane, or kerosene, or pellets, or corn, or alcohol...)
without knowing what both cost.
"Less what?" is the question. Mr Spalding's heater uses butane,
propane, or some other -ane, which is sometimes a lot cheaper than
electricity, and which dumps lots of water vapor in the house. If you
have a tight, wet house already, that can be a very big problem. In
fact, for some houses a dehumidifier and is the best energy saver in
winter, since it lets you shower and such without having to vent half
your heat out. If you have a house that is too dry in winter -very
common with hot water heat- and you want to raise the humidity in the
first place, it can kill two stones with one bird. Which do you have,
hot water or forced air? (And, if you have forced air, do the ducts
leak?)
> > How much does your house leak? This cuts both ways. Unvented
> > heaters cause less long-term damage in leaky houses; sealing leaks
> > and using small elctric spot heaters are both options.
>
> It's a little drafty. I'll get around to sealing the leaks some day.
Get the worst ones today, Manana Man. Seriously, whachu waiting for?
> As I say, I don't need a heater to heat a whole room so much as an
> immediate space where a body is.
>
> > What other ways of trapping (as opposed to making) heat are
> > available and feasible?
> I don't know.
Look at your windows first, then the walls in the areas you want to
heat. If you have forced air, see if is leaking on either side.
Opus the Penguin
That's true. But I do know in general terms that it will be cheaper
to use electricity to heat a small space than to use gas to heat the
entire house. Given that, aren't some electric heaters more efficient
at doing that than others?
> "Less what?" is the question. Mr Spalding's heater uses butane,
> propane, or some other -ane, which is sometimes a lot cheaper than
> electricity, and which dumps lots of water vapor in the house. If
> you have a tight, wet house already, that can be a very big
> problem. In fact, for some houses a dehumidifier and is the best
> energy saver in winter, since it lets you shower and such without
> having to vent half your heat out. If you have a house that is too
> dry in winter -very common with hot water heat- and you want to
> raise the humidity in the first place, it can kill two stones with
> one bird. Which do you have, hot water or forced air? (And, if
> you have forced air, do the ducts leak?)
>
Forced air. How do I know if the ducks leak?
>> > How much does your house leak? �This cuts both ways. �Unvented
>> > heaters cause less long-term damage in leaky houses; sealing
>> > leaks and using small elctric spot heaters are both options.
>>
>> It's a little drafty. I'll get around to sealing the leaks some
>> day.
>
> Get the worst ones today, Manana Man. Seriously, whachu waiting
> for?
>
Beats me. Here I sit with all this time and energy.
Les Albert
<opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill won't
>be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option? It
>doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an oil-filled radiator
>type heater is fine. And it doesn't need to heat the whole room so much
>as the area where someone is sitting at a desk or sleeping. So
>something directional is fine.
>It seems to me I asked this question last year, but never followed
>through on getting a heater. The resulting gas bills were horrendous,
>so I'm hoping I can get it done this year. Extra Opus Points (TM) to
>anyone who provides a pointer to that previous thread, especially if
>the advice I got last year directly contradicts any advice I get this
>year.
> ....
Look into a portable electric baseboard heater, similar to these:
www.heater-home.com/category/baseboard.aspx
We have one that I bought many years ago for exactly the purpose you
describe. A 750 watt heater like that will make a 12 x 12 room very
comfortable. 750 watts won't strain your electrical system, and it
will be less expensive to operate. You don't have to buy these kind
of heaters on the internet; they are available in hardware stores so
you can see how they operate.
Les
Paul Ciszek
In article <Xns9CC93F0086FF1op...@192.168.1.101>,
As others have pointed out, electric heaters are by definition 100%
efficient, as any inefficiency results in...heat. Some radiant
heaters claim to be more than 100% efficient; this is BS. Others have
pointed out that electric heaters can deliver the heat more locally
than some other options.
Heaters that work by burning stuff should also be quite efficient at
turning chemical energy into heat, with the caveat that if they involve
a flue or chimney, then you are likely losing some or even most of the
heat that way. If they do not involve a flue or a chimney, they pose
certain other risks or drawbacks. In general, the tradeoff is:
Burning cheap coal, turning maybe 30% of that heat into electricity,
transmitting that electricity to your house with some losses, and then
converting 100% of what's left into heat.
vs.
Burning something fairly cheap in a furnace, stove, or fireplace, and
losing some or most of that heat up the flue.
vs.
Burning something really clean in a heater that does not vent to the
outside.
The latter may be the cheapest option for adding heat to a room not
already equipped with flues or heating vents. Sometimes, if the heat
is all going straight to the top of the room, it can make sense to run
a ceiling fan to circulate that heat back downwards. This is where
electric heat just might win out: Radiant heaters can be "aimed",
and an electric snugglie with electric socks might be the cheapest
way to heat just one person.
--
Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
Autoreply is disabled |
Mac
(Waterfowl urine joke suppressed.) Wait till the heater isn't running,
and see it there's a breeze at the low vents. Open a window, and see
if there's a breeze at the high 'uns. For bad leaks, it's
refreshingly low tech. If you have a fresh air vent on the system,
make sure it closes when it oughta.
Mac
> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:18:39 GMT, Opus the Penguin
>
That's one of those TWIAVBP-ers, since the local price of electricity
in major markets in the US varies about 4 to one, and that of gas
nearly 10 to one, if you take the range from utility piped to small
tank retail.
Lesmond
>In our last episode, <Xns9CC93F0086FF1op...@192.168.1.101>,
>the lovely and talented Opus the Penguin broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams:
>
>> We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill won't
>> be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option?
>
>If the neighbor's yard is not too near your house, just remark casually that
>the best turkey you ever had was deep-fat fried whole. Unfortunately this
>will seldom work more than once per neighbor and the result will be somewhat
>limited if the local fire department is on its toes.
I just got a deep fat turkey fryer to give to my BIL for Christmas.
--
If there's a nuclear winter, at least it'll snow.
Mary
> In article <Xns9CC93F0086FF1opusthepenguinnet...@192.168.1.101>,
> opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com says...
This is my experience too. We have a couple of the oil-filled heaters
for rooms that we like to keep warmer than the rest of the house, but
Opus seems to want to heat just the area by the desk (or whatever).
For that we have a little radiant heater that's really warm really
fast.
Seriously, the cats love to sit by it.
Mary
Opus the Penguin
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill
>>won't be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient
>>option? It doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an
>>oil-filled radiator type heater is fine. And it doesn't need to
>>heat the whole room so much as the area where someone is sitting
>>at a desk or sleeping. So something directional is fine.
>>
>>It seems to me I asked this question last year, but never followed
>>through on getting a heater. The resulting gas bills were
>>horrendous, so I'm hoping I can get it done this year. Extra Opus
>>Points (TM) to anyone who provides a pointer to that previous
>>thread, especially if the advice I got last year directly
>>contradicts any advice I get this year.
>>
>>What makes some heaters more energy efficient than others? What
>>are the trade-offs if any?
>
> As others have pointed out, electric heaters are by definition
> 100% efficient, as any inefficiency results in...heat.
Yeah, but is it the same amount of heat I'd get if the thing were
more efficient?
Maybe "efficient" isn't the right word since it's a term of art with
electrical appliances. I'm asking which heater puts out the most heat
for the least electricity used. Is that a question that can be
sensibly asked, or am I still not getting it?
Les Albert
wrote:
Re your TWIAVBP, IDKWYAM.
Les
Jim Prescott
>> On Nov 20, 7:21�am, Opus the Penguin
>> <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 1973 wood frame construction in the Kansas City area.
>to use electricity to heat a small space than to use gas to heat the
>entire house.
All things being equal. But heating an entire energy efficient house
could be cheaper than trying to spot heat an inefficient one.
>Given that, aren't some electric heaters more efficient
>at doing that than others?
All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Some may do a better job than
others at focusing the heat where/when you want it. But drafts are
going to work against any spot heating since they distribute the air
throughout the room as well as throughout the yard.
>Forced air. How do I know if the ducks leak?
With exposed ducts you could feel for leaks, or use an incense stick
and watch the smoke. But taping over the seams on exposed ducts is
simple and cheap enough that you really don't need to see if it is
necessary.
Unexposed ducts are much harder. You can probably rent airflow meters
but finding or fixing them is probably beyond diy.
>>> It's a little drafty. I'll get around to sealing the leaks some day.
>> Get the worst ones today, Manana Man. Seriously, whachu waiting for?
>Beats me. Here I sit with all this time and energy.
Drafty is bad. An afternoon spent caulking & weatherstripping might
make a huge difference. If you aren't likely to do so yourself, there
are probably plenty of unemployed "handymen" you could hire.
Some utilities also offer free/cheap home energy audits. This would
let you or the handyman concentrate on the biggest problems first.
There are currently tax credits for Energy Efficiency improvements
which can bring the price down.
Unless you happen to have an extremely energy efficient home, improving
its efficiency is usually the best way to reduce heating costs.
--
Jim Prescott Edmund A. Hajim School of Engineering and Applied Sciences
j...@seas.rochester.edu University of Rochester, NY
Les Albert
<opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Paul Ciszek (nos...@nospam.com) wrote:
>> As others have pointed out, electric heaters are by definition
>> 100% efficient, as any inefficiency results in...heat.
>Yeah, but is it the same amount of heat I'd get if the thing were
>more efficient?
>Maybe "efficient" isn't the right word since it's a term of art with
>electrical appliances. I'm asking which heater puts out the most heat
>for the least electricity used. Is that a question that can be
>sensibly asked, or am I still not getting it?
I think you are asking a sensible question, but I also think you are
asking for information that would require a test project by Consumer
Reports.
Les
Hactar
Well, you left out the aspect of bulk fuel purchases in the range of
hundreds or thousands of ton(ne)s per day (I think) and the price
savings that incurs.
And heat pumps (I suppose they could be run by propane/LPG/whatever the
same way some fridges are), which deliver more heat than they use in
energy, which gives them a >1 equivalent efficiency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Efficiency
,--
| When used for heating a building on a mild day, a typical air-source
| heat pump has a COP of 3 - 4, whereas a typical electric resistance
| heater has a COP of 1.0. That is, one joule of electrical energy will
| cause a resistance heater to produce one joule of useful heat, while
| under ideal conditions, one joule of electrical energy can cause a heat
| pump to move much more than one joule of heat from a cooler place to a
| warmer place.
'--
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
This message was created using recycled electrons.
DT
opusthepen...@gmail.com says...
>> As others have pointed out, electric heaters are by definition
>> 100% efficient, as any inefficiency results in...heat.
>
>Yeah, but is it the same amount of heat I'd get if the thing were
>more efficient?
>
>Maybe "efficient" isn't the right word since it's a term of art with
>electrical appliances. I'm asking which heater puts out the most heat
>for the least electricity used. Is that a question that can be
>sensibly asked, or am I still not getting it?
You still aren't getting, little buddy. They are ALL EXACTLY 100%
efficient, and put out the same amount of total heat for the same
running time (assuming identical wattage), from the $25 Walmart radiant
heater to the $300 Genuine Amish Built Snazzy WooHoo.
You will get heat delivered at different temperatures. The oil filled
reaches, what, 120 degrees and directly heats the air, while the radiant
reaches 1500 degrees and warms any solid surface placed in its path, and
that newly warmed object warms the air. If the solid object is a wall,
it also loses a lot of heat to the backside of the wall.
--
Dennis
Mac
> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:25:48 -0800 (PST), Mac <ANMCC...@ALUM.WPI.EDU>
YGBSM.
Les Albert
wrote:
>On Nov 20, 10:44�am, Les Albert <lalbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Re your TWIAVBP, IDKWYAM.
>YGBSM.
u r the sekrit texter n i clame my pryze.
Les
(You can have great exchanges with Turlock)
Bill Turlock
>
> In article <Xns9CC96C791957op...@192.168.1.101>,
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Mac (ANMC...@ALUM.WPI.EDU) wrote:
> >> On Nov 20, 7:21 am, Opus the Penguin
> >> <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> 1973 wood frame construction in the Kansas City area.
> >But I do know in general terms that it will be cheaper
> >to use electricity to heat a small space than to use gas to heat the
> >entire house.
>
> All things being equal. But heating an entire energy efficient house
> could be cheaper than trying to spot heat an inefficient one.
>
> >Given that, aren't some electric heaters more efficient
> >at doing that than others?
>
> All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Some may do a better job than
> others at focusing the heat where/when you want it. But drafts are
> going to work against any spot heating since they distribute the air
> throughout the room as well as throughout the yard.
>
> >Forced air. How do I know if the ducks leak?
>
> With exposed ducts you could feel for leaks, or use an incense stick
> and watch the smoke. But taping over the seams on exposed ducts is
> simple and cheap enough that you really don't need to see if it is
> necessary.
But� what would you use?
Mac
> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:42:15 -0800 (PST), Mac <ANMCC...@ALUM.WPI.EDU>
Well, I like his music. Not too many harpists like that these days.
Les Albert
wrote:
I didn't know he played the harp.
Les
Mac
wrote:
> Jim Prescott wrote:
>
> > In article <Xns9CC96C791957opusthepenguinnet...@192.168.1.101>,
> > >> On Nov 20, 7:21 am, Opus the Penguin
> > >> <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> 1973 wood frame construction in the Kansas City area.
> > >But I do know in general terms that it will be cheaper
> > >to use electricity to heat a small space than to use gas to heat the
> > >entire house.
>
> > All things being equal. But heating an entire energy efficient house
> > could be cheaper than trying to spot heat an inefficient one.
>
> > >Given that, aren't some electric heaters more efficient
> > >at doing that than others?
>
> > All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Some may do a better job than
> > others at focusing the heat where/when you want it. But drafts are
> > going to work against any spot heating since they distribute the air
> > throughout the room as well as throughout the yard.
>
> > >Forced air. How do I know if the ducks leak?
>
> > With exposed ducts you could feel for leaks, or use an incense stick
> > and watch the smoke. But taping over the seams on exposed ducts is
> > simple and cheap enough that you really don't need to see if it is
> > necessary.
>
> But… what would you use?
Gun tape.
Nasti J
wrote:
> We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill won't
> be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option? It
> doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an oil-filled radiator
> type heater is fine. And it doesn't need to heat the whole room so much
> as the area where someone is sitting at a desk or sleeping. So
> something directional is fine.
>
Whatever the source, this may help distribute the heat more
efficiently at a low cost:
http://www.wisebread.com/ode-to-the-ecofan
"The ecofan works by you placing it on top of the stove while the
stove is on. The heat turns the fan. There’s nothing to plug in and no
hassle. I dust it a couple of times a year. That’s it. What seemed
like an extra added expense a few years ago, now feels like a godsend
as we’ve been able to last through our tank of kerosene for a full
month longer than we did before."
njg
Dana Carpender
> We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill won't
> be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option? It
> doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an oil-filled radiator
> type heater is fine. And it doesn't need to heat the whole room so much
> as the area where someone is sitting at a desk or sleeping. So
> something directional is fine.
>
> through on getting a heater. The resulting gas bills were horrendous,
> so I'm hoping I can get it done this year. Extra Opus Points (TM) to
> anyone who provides a pointer to that previous thread, especially if
> the advice I got last year directly contradicts any advice I get this
> year.
>
> trade-offs if any?
>
We've bought DeLonghi panel heaters for several of our rental units.
They're as efficient as electric heaters can be, they are completely
silent, they can hang on a wall, keeping them out of the way, they heat
up rapidly, giving off a pleasant, radiant heat, and they never get hot
enough to ignite paper -- you can put your hand on one while it's
working and you won't burn yourself, though you won't want to leave it
there for more than a few seconds. Our tenants like them. We plan to
buy a couple more for the workroom we're turning into my home gym.
Dana
dan
alt.fan.cecil-adams mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by
Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:18:39 GMT:
>What makes some heaters more energy efficient than others? What are the
>trade-offs if any?
If your talking about electric heaters, they are all 100% efficient.
That is to say all of the power they consume is turned into heat, that
is put into the room.
Fuel heaters(central heating) will send some of the heat up the flue.
That is lost energy that reduces the efficiency.
--
Dan H.
northshore MA.
Mac
> In article <he6ip8$m7...@reader1.panix.com>,
>
>
>
> Paul Ciszek <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <Xns9CC93F0086FF1opusthepenguinnet...@192.168.1.101>,
>
> This message was created using recycled electrons.
LPG refrigerators, unless you mean the kind that have a little engine
on 'em, (Yes, these do exist. Used for reefer containers and
trailers.) are absorption units; the best know type were marketed by
Servel. They have a great many virtues, but high efficiency is not
one of them. That's not such a big deal for heat pump use, of course,
but it limits summer use as AC.
bill van
no...@privacy.net (dan) wrote:
Shirley some of it is converted into light when the metal filaments glow.
bill
Bill Turlock
Wow. That's the first other human being I've ever hear of with
the name.
Hactar
... which then gets eventually turned into heat when it hits something
(including your retinas, though the conversion may be rather indirect).
The only "lost" energy is EM radiation which escapes through a window.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
Q: Why does hamburger have lower energy than steak?
A: Because it's in the ground state. -- Harold_of_the_Rocks on Fark
Mac
> In article <4b0778f9.26677...@news20.forteinc.com>,
Yup, and some of the light can escape the area, as can some kinetic
energy. Even in units without fans, some heat is converted to
movement. Still, they all eventually become heat, just not
necessarily somewhere useful...which is what makes the "100 per
cent!!!" a little suspect.
plausible prose man
wrote:
> We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill won't
> be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option?
I think you can get pretty nice heaters with thermostats in the
twenty or so dollar range at Walmart. You might need an extension
cord, too, since you'll be using half or more of the current draw on a
given circuit, you know, depending.
> It
> doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an oil-filled radiator
> type heater is fine.
I seem to recall those as taking several hours to warm up from "off,"
though.
> And it doesn't need to heat the whole room so much
> as the area where someone is sitting at a desk or sleeping.
Okay, here's what you want:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=12338795
Its nice that the current draw is relatively low, that still leaves
you with 800 watts to run a computer and a monitor or something, and
you can always not turn it up all the way. If its important to you to
buy something in a store, you might get:
Also, you can turn your heater down to fifty or so in the daytime when
no one's home, you can close all the doors all the time, wear sweaters
and socks around the house, etc. Try to keep everyone in one room to
the extent practical, whatever. Always be asking yourself if you could
stand it just a little cooler than it is, and if the answer is "yes,"
turn down the thermostat an RCH.
So
> something directional is fine.
>
> It seems to me I asked this question last year, but never followed
> through on getting a heater. The resulting gas bills were horrendous,
> so I'm hoping I can get it done this year. Extra Opus Points (TM) to
> anyone who provides a pointer to that previous thread, especially if
> the advice I got last year directly contradicts any advice I get this
> year.
>
> What makes some heaters more energy efficient than others? What are the
> trade-offs if any?
>
Mac
wrote:
You musta had some relatives, After all, there's a whole town, and
all...
Turlough O' Carolan (pronounced much like "Turlock") was probably the
greatest of the Irish harpers (although you could have a very long
argument with some people, prolly even including me, you catch me on
the wrong day.) He was also the only harper without "Rory" or "Dall"
in his name, a great distinction in itself.
bilikes
(Note for the impaired: there were a great many great harpers without
Rory or Dall in their name. Have someone (else) explain the joke to
you, mmm'kay, Birdnym? Same for the joke about Turlock, CA.)
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>Turlough O' Carolan (pronounced much like "Turlock") was probably the
>greatest of the Irish harpers (although you could have a very long
>argument with some people, prolly even including me, you catch me on
>the wrong day.) He was also the only harper without "Rory" or "Dall"
>in his name, a great distinction in itself.
>
>bilikes
>
>(Note for the impaired: there were a great many great harpers without
>Rory or Dall in their name. Have someone (else) explain the joke to
>you, mmm'kay, Birdnym? Same for the joke about Turlock, CA.)
But this is my favorite Irish harp:
http://www.haverford.edu/engl/faculty/Sherman/Irish/harp.htm
And my favorite copy:
http://carverscompanion.com/Ezine/Vol8Issue6/KMenendez/jw_trinity_harp.jpg
Boron
Bill Kinkaid
I love the music, though in small doses, but I also like this type of
Irish harp. Especially with this arrangement
http://zoomafu.com/beermix/?p=1
--
Bill in Vancouver
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
> Mac (ANMC...@ALUM.WPI.EDU) wrote:
>
>
>> and how much does electricity (and other stuff, as
>> appropriate) cost in your neck of the woods?
>>
>
> I'm not sure. What's the relevance? Using less is using less, right?
Did you mention a kerosense heater as one alternative? Obviously the
costs using less electricity and more kerosene will depend on the
relative costs of electricity and kerosene.
>
> It's a little drafty. I'll get around to sealing the leaks some day.
> As I say, I don't need a heater to heat a whole room so much as an
> immediate space where a body is.
Have you considered getting a Snuggy?
Xho
Bill Turlock
It's hard to tell for sure. Are you being snarky to me?
Mac
Nahh. It's just that Turlock, CA seems to be named for the place, not
for any person, but rather for a place, which in turn was spelled
differently. Turlock, Turlough, and, may God Help Ireland,
Toirdhealbhach are all pronounced about the same.
Bill Turlock
Well, actually that takes a load off my mind. Thanks. See I use
Turlock as a suede-o-nym, and I've googled it extensively, and
can find no human being by that name.
I'm unique!
Snidely
It's the brushed effect -- patent leather would make you blend into
the crowd.
/dps
Snidely
> We've bought DeLonghi panel heaters for several of our rental units.
> They're as efficient as electric heaters can be, they are completely
> silent, they can hang on a wall, keeping them out of the way, they heat
> up rapidly, giving off a pleasant, radiant heat, and they never get hot
> enough to ignite paper -- you can put your hand on one while it's
> working and you won't burn yourself, though you won't want to leave it
> there for more than a few seconds. Our tenants like them. We plan to
> buy a couple more for the workroom we're turning into my home gym.
I think I'm looking for a towel warmer this winter. The rack type,
not bin-with-lid type.
/dps
Paul Ciszek
In article <Xns9CC9817976580op...@192.168.1.101>,
>more efficient?
>
>Maybe "efficient" isn't the right word since it's a term of art with
>electrical appliances. I'm asking which heater puts out the most heat
>for the least electricity used. Is that a question that can be
>sensibly asked, or am I still not getting it?
All of the electrical power consumed by the heater becomes heat.
I will even go out on a limb and say that all of it becomes heat
within the room in which the heater is being used[1]. The only
respect in which some heaters might be better is in their ability
to deliver the heat exactly where it is wanted.
[1] All right, all right, the extra current that the heater draws
results in a slight increase in heating of the wiring in your
house. But if the wiring of your house is safe and adequate to
meet the demands of the electric heater, this should be negligible.
--
Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
Autoreply is disabled |
Mac
> I think I'm looking for a towel warmer this winter. The rack type,
> not bin-with-lid type.
Don't go with the one in Sporty's. Despite their usual high
standards, it's anemic.
Opus the Penguin
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Yeah, but is it the same amount of heat I'd get if the thing were
>>more efficient?
>>
>>Maybe "efficient" isn't the right word since it's a term of art
>>with electrical appliances. I'm asking which heater puts out the
>>most heat for the least electricity used. Is that a question that
>>can be sensibly asked, or am I still not getting it?
>
> All of the electrical power consumed by the heater becomes heat.
> I will even go out on a limb and say that all of it becomes heat
> within the room in which the heater is being used[1]. The only
> respect in which some heaters might be better is in their ability
> to deliver the heat exactly where it is wanted.
So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there puts
out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's just a
question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound right to
me.
Lee Ayrton
>
> In article <Xns9CC93F0086FF1op...@192.168.1.101>,
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill won't
>>be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option? It
>>doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an oil-filled radiator
>>type heater is fine. And it doesn't need to heat the whole room so much
>>as the area where someone is sitting at a desk or sleeping. So
>>something directional is fine.
>>
>>It seems to me I asked this question last year, but never followed
>>through on getting a heater. The resulting gas bills were horrendous,
>>so I'm hoping I can get it done this year. Extra Opus Points (TM) to
>>anyone who provides a pointer to that previous thread, especially if
>>the advice I got last year directly contradicts any advice I get this
>>year.
>>
>>What makes some heaters more energy efficient than others? What are the
>>trade-offs if any?
>
> As others have pointed out, electric heaters are by definition 100%
> efficient, as any inefficiency results in...heat. Some radiant
> heaters claim to be more than 100% efficient; this is BS. Others have
> pointed out that electric heaters can deliver the heat more locally
> than some other options.
>
> Heaters that work by burning stuff should also be quite efficient at
> turning chemical energy into heat, with the caveat that if they involve
> a flue or chimney, then you are likely losing some or even most of the
> heat that way. If they do not involve a flue or a chimney, they pose
> certain other risks or drawbacks. In general, the tradeoff is:
>
> Burning cheap coal, turning maybe 30% of that heat into electricity,
> transmitting that electricity to your house with some losses, and then
> converting 100% of what's left into heat.
>
> vs.
>
> Burning something fairly cheap in a furnace, stove, or fireplace, and
> losing some or most of that heat up the flue.
>
> vs.
>
> Burning something really clean in a heater that does not vent to the
> outside.
>
> The latter may be the cheapest option for adding heat to a room not
> already equipped with flues or heating vents. Sometimes, if the heat
> is all going straight to the top of the room, it can make sense to run
> a ceiling fan to circulate that heat back downwards. This is where
> electric heat just might win out: Radiant heaters can be "aimed",
> and an electric snugglie with electric socks might be the cheapest
> way to heat just one person.
I'll just use a cat, thanks.
Mac
>
> >>Yeah, but is it the same amount of heat I'd get if the thing were
> >>more efficient?
>
> >>Maybe "efficient" isn't the right word since it's a term of art
> >>with electrical appliances. I'm asking which heater puts out the
> >>most heat for the least electricity used. Is that a question that
> >>can be sensibly asked, or am I still not getting it?
>
> > All of the electrical power consumed by the heater becomes heat.
> > I will even go out on a limb and say that all of it becomes heat
> > within the room in which the heater is being used[1]. The only
> > respect in which some heaters might be better is in their ability
> > to deliver the heat exactly where it is wanted.
>
> So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there puts
> out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used?
More or less. If it has a fan, some of the energy goes to move the
air, but most of the motor inefficiency is seen as heat. You got line
loss issues, which can be (very) slightly different for cycled systems
or steady ones, but that's about it: it's almost all heat of movement,
and the movement eventually breaks down to heat, too. (Anyone else
thinking of F&S's "Laws of Thermodynamics?) Yoou throw in stuff like
bearing wear on a unit with a fan, you might get some tiny little
difference between them. but I doubt you'd break a single percent..
> It's just a question of how that heat is directed?
Before you say "just", picture two different delivery systems. Same
amount of juice used. One is a heat pad, about a foot by 15 inches.
The other is a soldering iron. If your bed is cold at night, would it
be a better thing to let the heat pad take the curse off it a bit, or
should you just plug in the iron and stuff it under the covers?
It's all about how you focus and deliver it.
Hactar
No, it's correct, except for powerline losses. Or if it does something
bizarre like energy -> mass conversion (Einstein said it was possible)
or spends energy ionizing the air, its efficiency (in some sense) might
not be 100%.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
An idea that is not dangerous is unworthy of
being called an idea at all. -Oscar Wilde
danny burstein
>So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there puts
>out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's just a
>question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound right to
>me.
Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
[a] aside from minor twitches that would only concenr
lab rats, there's only one common item where that
wouldn't be the case, and another type where it's
still mostly.
If you use a battery charger in your home and you
pump in, say, 2500 watt-hours of power into the
battery (car battery size...), something like 75 percent
of the energy goes into chemical reactions and
gets stored in that battery. So your room only
heats up 24 percent of the way.
The other one that is a "mostly" is if you aim
a light out the window. Depending on thises
and thatses, anywhere up to 15 percent of the
energy can go out the window... as light.
(Usually it's just a fraction of a percent).
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Mac
> In <Xns9CCC8A6BC593Bopusthepenguinnet...@192.168.1.101> Opus the Penguin <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there puts
> >out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's just a
> >question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound right to
> >me.
>
> Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
> into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>
> [a] aside from minor twitches that would only concenr
> lab rats, there's only one common item where that
> wouldn't be the case, and another type where it's
> still mostly.
>
> If you use a battery charger in your home and you
> pump in, say, 2500 watt-hours of power into the
> battery (car battery size...), something like 75 percent
> of the energy goes into chemical reactions and
> gets stored in that battery. So your room only
> heats up 24 percent of the way.
>
> The other one that is a "mostly" is if you aim
> a light out the window. Depending on thises
> and thatses, anywhere up to 15 percent of the
> energy can go out the window... as light.
> (Usually it's just a fraction of a percent).
Sound, too.
That varies from genuinely negligible to practically negligible.
Opus the Penguin
> In <Xns9CCC8A6BC593Bop...@192.168.1.101> Opus the
> Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there
>>puts out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's just
>>a question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound right
>>to me.
>
> Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
> into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>
You all keep saying yes and then restating the problem to something that
sounds different to me.
Hactar
The only way power fed to the heater doesn't help heat up the room is if
something escapes -- could be power lines heating up in other rooms or
between you and the power station, or sound or light that's detectable
outside, or air motion (again, outside), whatever. BUT, such losses are
almost always negligible. FAPP electric resistance heaters (radiant,
conductive, convective, forced air, whatever) are all 100% efficient.
Heat pumps (when not in "emergency heat" mode) are not resistance
heaters, and are in some sense 300-400% efficient. (The heat comes from
outdoors; all the H.P. does is move it indoors. If you include the
entire world in your "closed system", they're 100% efficient, just like
the others.)
--
The people don't want war, but it is a simple matter to drag the people
along. The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. - HG
Mac
> In article <Xns9CCCB35F2CAE8opusthepenguinnet...@192.168.1.101>,
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > danny burstein (dan...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> > > Penguin <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > >>So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there
> > >>puts out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's just
> > >>a question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound right
> > >>to me.
>
> > > Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
> > > into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>
> > You all keep saying yes and then restating the problem to something that
> > sounds different to me.
>
> The only way power fed to the heater doesn't help heat up the room is if
> something escapes -- could be power lines heating up in other rooms or
> between you and the power station, or sound or light that's detectable
> outside, or air motion (again, outside), whatever. BUT, such losses are
> almost always negligible. FAPP electric resistance heaters (radiant,
> conductive, convective, forced air, whatever) are all 100% efficient.
This is how we are confusing him. Can't talk about losses and then
say "100%."
Bill Turlock
>
> In <Xns9CCC8A6BC593Bop...@192.168.1.101> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there puts
> >out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's just a
> >question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound right to
> >me.
>
> Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
> into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>
> [a] aside from minor twitches that would only concenr
> lab rats, there's only one common item where that
> wouldn't be the case, and another type where it's
> still mostly.
>
> If you use a battery charger in your home and you
> pump in, say, 2500 watt-hours of power into the
> battery (car battery size...), something like 75 percent
> of the energy goes into chemical reactions and
> gets stored in that battery. So your room only
> heats up 24 percent of the way.
>
> The other one that is a "mostly" is if you aim
> a light out the window. Depending on thises
> and thatses, anywhere up to 15 percent of the
> energy can go out the window... as light.
> (Usually it's just a fraction of a percent).
>
I assume we're defining "electric heater" rather narrowly,
because a microwave oven is just that, and does not put 100% of
its energy into the item of interest.
Don K
news:Xns9CCCB35F2CAE8op...@192.168.1.101...
Yes. That's because we're all eager nerds.
Eager nerds are happy to explain why something always happens.
And then, unsolicited, we will come up with a list of improbable exceptions
to the general rule.
Don
Les Albert
<opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there
>>>puts out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's just
>>>a question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound right
>>>to me.
>> Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
>> into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>You all keep saying yes and then restating the problem to something that
>sounds different to me.
You are trying to cut it too fine by trying to find out here which is
the most efficient heater for your purpose. Either Buy a heater that
fits your budget, or else go to the library and start looking at
Consumer Reports back issues:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/home/2007/10/space-heaters.html
Or find someone who is a subscriber and can access their web page.
Les
Don K
news:eb8e99b1-691a-44ca...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
> into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
Actually, if the room uses alternating current, no electrons are being
"pumped" into the room. The electrons are just pushing each other back
and forth, with each electron moving only about 4 micrometers back
and forth.
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/miscon/speed.html
Don
Mac
> "Mac" <ANMCC...@ALUM.WPI.EDU> wrote in message
First off, 'tweren't me who wrote that. Secondly, whether its AC or
DC, the electrons aren't "pumped in", unless we are planning to turn
the Pengnym's house into a Leyden Jar. (Hmmmmmm.) They are flowing
through, either steadily and in a single direction, or intermittently,
and in reversing directions, but the electrons themselves aren't
sticking around. I think everyone (with one possible exception) get
that.
groo
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns9CC93F0086FF1op...@192.168.1.101:
>
>> We need to buy a couple of heaters so that this year's gas bill won't
>> be as high. What's the cheapest, most energy-efficient option? It
>> doesn't need to heat the room immediately, so an oil-filled radiator
>> type heater is fine. And it doesn't need to heat the whole room so
>> much as the area where someone is sitting at a desk or sleeping. So
>> something directional is fine.
>>
>> It seems to me I asked this question last year, but never followed
>> through on getting a heater. The resulting gas bills were horrendous,
>> so I'm hoping I can get it done this year. Extra Opus Points (TM) to
>> anyone who provides a pointer to that previous thread, especially if
>> the advice I got last year directly contradicts any advice I get this
>> year.
>>
>> What makes some heaters more energy efficient than others? What are
>> the trade-offs if any?
>>
>
> In the spirit of not actually answering your question and helpfully
> suggesting things that probably won't work, have you considered
> electric blankets? They're not so good for desk work, but for
> sleeping, they work great, and they're cheap to operate.
>
> Also, I took N. Jill's advice and got one of these:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Pet-Supply-Imports-SnuggleSafe-
> Heatpad/dp/B00008AJH
> 9
>
> http://snurl.com/tbx1q
>
> They work amazingly well. They hold heat forever. I don't sit at
> desks unless someone's paying me, but if you do, you could put your
> feet on it and be warm. I put it on the couch near my feet and toss a
> blanket over feet and disk, and stay warm that way.
>
"When the time cycle has finished, leave SnuggleSafe in the microwave
for another minute. During this extra minutes, SnuggleSafe will continue
to heat up even though the power is off."
We may have a solution to global warming.
--
"Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." -
Hamilcar Barca
Tim Wright
But when the current is turned off, the free electrons don't evacuate
the premises, they do, in fact, just hang around in the conductor, until
there is an electromotive force to move them.
--
Tim W
Onomatopoeia
A word that sounds like the sound it sounds like.
Don K
On Nov 23, 5:59 pm, "Don K" <d...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Mac" <ANMCC...@ALUM.WPI.EDU> wrote in message
>
> news:eb8e99b1-691a-44ca...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
> > into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>
> Actually, if the room uses alternating current, no electrons are being
> "pumped" into the room. The electrons are just pushing each other back
> and forth, with each electron moving only about 4 micrometers back
> and forth.
>
> http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/miscon/speed.html
>
> Don
Mac wrote:
First off, 'tweren't me who wrote that.
Don wrote back:
Sorry.
I got confused by the Googlegroups/Outlook quoting incompatibility.
Mac continued:
Secondly, whether its AC or
DC, the electrons aren't "pumped in", unless we are planning to turn
the Pengnym's house into a Leyden Jar. (Hmmmmmm.) They are flowing
through, either steadily and in a single direction, or intermittently,
and in reversing directions, but the electrons themselves aren't
sticking around. I think everyone (with one possible exception) get
that.
Don wrote back more:
My point was that the individual electrons aren't moving very far at all.
I don't think many people realize that. I certainly found it surprising
way back in Physics 101.
Don
Hactar
Bill Turlock <"Bill Turlock "@sonnnic.invalid> wrote:
No, but if you want to heat up the room, 1 MJ into the microwave works as
well as 1 MJ into a space heater. It's more fiddly and not really
designed for that purpose, but it works. Sorta. And, the microwave can
make some food mostly-palatable as a byproduct.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
They that can give up essential liberty to
obtain a little temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety. -- Ben Franklin
Don K
news:grednRlTAZAi1JbW...@supernews.com...
The power cable has two conductors. At any given instant, the current
is coming in on one wire and going out on the other wire.
The heater gets hot because it has a high resistance and electrons are
being pushed and forced to go thru that high resistance.
Don
Snidely
Okay. I think DeLonghi has one. I hope to avoid Skymall in my
selection process.
/dps
Mac
> In article <c6b2e8ad-1b3d-41c3-a56e-8b54d8659...@u16g2000pru.googlegroups.com>,
You know, I think "negligible" is one of those words so abused in
informal speech (especially about politics), and by salesmen and other
panderers, that people forget that it really means "able to be
neglected." Notice how "indicator" has gone down this path?
Snidely
You're just needling us, right?
/dps
Peter Ward
It's because of all them women in p0rn films answering doors in their
negligibles.
--
Peter, from outside the asylum
I'm an alien
email: usenet at peterward dot adsl24 dot co dot uk
http://blowinsmoke.wordpress.com/
Education is what survives when what has been learned has been
forgotten.
- B. F. Skinner
Opus the Penguin
I'm not worried about the exceptions. I'm worried about how everyone
keeps saying "yes" and then goes on to explain they're saying "yes"
to something that sounds different from what I asked.
Opus the Penguin
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:47:13 GMT, Opus the Penguin
> <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>danny burstein (dan...@panix.com) wrote:
>>>> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>>So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there
>>>>puts out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's
>>>>just a question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound
>>>>right to me.
>
>>> Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
>>> into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>
>>You all keep saying yes and then restating the problem to
>>something that sounds different to me.
>
>
> You are trying to cut it too fine by trying to find out here which
> is the most efficient heater for your purpose.
No, at this point I'm just trying to understand the answers in order
to grow as a penguin. I already bought a heater.
Opus the Penguin
Yes, I understand that. Do you understand how saying it's all
converted to heat is NOT the same as saying it's all converted to the
SAME AMOUNT of heat? Everything you are saying could be true and yet
not preclude the possibility that one heater puts out twice as much
heat per kilowatt hour as another.
plausible prose man
wrote:
> Les Albert (lalbe...@aol.com) wrote:
> > On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:47:13 GMT, Opus the Penguin
> > <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>danny burstein (dan...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> >>>>So you're telling me that every single electric heater out there
> >>>>puts out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used? It's
> >>>>just a question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't sound
> >>>>right to me.
>
> >>> Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
> >>> into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>
> >>You all keep saying yes and then restating the problem to
> >>something that sounds different to me.
>
> > You are trying to cut it too fine by trying to find out here which
> > is the most efficient heater for your purpose.
>
> No, at this point I'm just trying to understand the answers in order
> to grow as a penguin. I already bought a heater.
Huh, which one? I think the plug in dealies, they all use pretty much
the same element, so they're all going to convert X amount of
electricity into a basically equivalent amount of heat, and price is
more an issue of doo-dads and how safe you feel buying the cheapest
one.
bill van
Sounds like an unrealistic expectation. AFCA isn't structured to provide
one definitive answer. The questioner -- that would be you -- has to
examine the various bits of response that stick to the wall and make
sense of them, or determine there's no sense to be had.
bill
Mac
+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hactar (ebenZERO...@verizon.net) wrote:
> > In article <Xns9CCCB35F2CAE8opusthepenguinnet...@192.168.1.101>,
> >> danny burstein (dan...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> >> > the Penguin <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> >>So you're telling me that every single electric heater out
> >> >>there puts out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used?
> >> >>It's just a question of how that heat is directed? That doesn't
> >> >>sound right to me.
>
> >> > Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
> >> > into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>
> >> You all keep saying yes and then restating the problem to
> >> something that sounds different to me.
>
> > The only way power fed to the heater doesn't help heat up the room
> > is if something escapes -- could be power lines heating up in
> > other rooms or between you and the power station, or sound or
> > light that's detectable outside, or air motion (again, outside),
> > whatever. BUT, such losses are almost always negligible. FAPP
> > electric resistance heaters (radiant, conductive, convective,
> > forced air, whatever) are all 100% efficient. Heat pumps (when not
> > in "emergency heat" mode) are not resistance heaters, and are in
> > some sense 300-400% efficient. (The heat comes from outdoors; all
> > the H.P. does is move it indoors. If you include the entire world
> > in your "closed system", they're 100% efficient, just like the
> > others.)
>
> Yes, I understand that. Do you understand how saying it's all
> converted to heat is NOT the same as saying it's all converted to the
> SAME AMOUNT of heat?
Where else do you think it's gonna go?
> Everything you are saying could be true and yet
> not preclude the possibility that one heater puts out twice as much
> heat per kilowatt hour as another.
Jaysus. Not if you passed high school physics it couldn't.
Resistance heaters all have about (that's as in "almost exactly") the
same power output. The only way to get more heat out of electricity
is to use a heat pump.
Fans for directing hot air put most (again, as in "almost all") power
into either moving air or heating air. The less efficient fans make
more heat as they spin. Less efficient motors losses show as heat.
No such thing as "waste heat" in this context.
danny burstein
>> > I did link them with the phrase "such losses are almost always
>> > negligible".
>> You know, I think "negligible" is one of those words so abused in
>It's because of all them women in p0rn films answering doors in their
>negligibles.
That would be unmentionable.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Opus the Penguin
That's not what I'm after.
> The questioner -- that would be you
> -- has to examine the various bits of response that stick to the
> wall and make sense of them, or determine there's no sense to be
> had.
>
I don't mind tangents. I don't mind unrelated information. I don't
mind being told the person doesn't know the answer to my question.
But when everyone says the answer is "yes," and then restates the
question as something different, I feel communication is not yet
taking place. Is it unrealistic to hope for communication?
(The answer, "Yes, it is unrealistic to expect one definitive
answer" would illustrate what I'm talking about very nicely.)
Opus the Penguin
> On Nov 24, 3:46 am, Opus the Penguin
> <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Les Albert (lalbe...@aol.com) wrote:
>> > On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:47:13 GMT, Opus the Penguin
>> > <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>danny burstein (dan...@panix.com) wrote:
>> >>>> Opus the Penguin <opusthepenguin+use...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >>>>So you're telling me that every single electric heater out
>> >>>>there puts out exactly the same amount of heat per watt used?
>> >>>>It's just a question of how that heat is directed? That
>> >>>>doesn't sound right to me.
>>
>> >>> Eyup, it's true. Every single electron [a] you pump
>> >>> into a room eventually becomes heat in that room.
>>
>> >>You all keep saying yes and then restating the problem to
>> >>something that sounds different to me.
>>
>> > You are trying to cut it too fine by trying to find out here
>> > which is the most efficient heater for your purpose.
>>
>> No, at this point I'm just trying to understand the answers in
>> order to grow as a penguin. I already bought a heater.
>
> Huh, which one?
Something like this:
or <http://snipurl.com/lasko5395>
My model number is one off from that--5934. The web thinks that model
doesn't exist. Huh.
bill van
And that nicely illustrates what I'm talking about. You've been given a
mass of material, much of it informative, in response to your question.
It was a good question and I learned things from others' responses. I
think there's plenty there to help inform your decision. But then you
say you've already made your purchase, without reference to the
responses. And you're being sniffy about those responses because they
don't conform to your precise expectations, which sound like they were
formulated after the fact. Fuck that.
bill
Opus the Penguin
Dude, what's up with you? I'm sorry if it sounded sniffy. Geez,
buddy.
Peter Ward
>
> I don't mind tangents. I don't mind unrelated information. I don't
> mind being told the person doesn't know the answer to my question.
> But when everyone says the answer is "yes," and then restates the
> question as something different, I feel communication is not yet
> taking place. Is it unrealistic to hope for communication?
Pay attention at the back.
You got the answer, the rest is, basically, nitpicking. This kind of
nitpicking is perfectly normal in AFCA, so you shouldn't be surprised by
it.
> (The answer, "Yes, it is unrealistic to expect one definitive
> answer" would illustrate what I'm talking about very nicely.)
I wouldn't expect one definitive answer in AFCA. Except sometimes.
--
Peter, from outside the asylum
I'm an alien
email: usenet at peterward dot adsl24 dot co dot uk
http://blowinsmoke.wordpress.com/
Trying to "save daylight" by playing with clocks is like trying to
lengthen your blanket by cutting a piece of off the top to sew onto the
bottom.
- Paul Ciszek
Hieronymus Agricola
(in article <Xns9CCD1B940467Fop...@192.168.1.101>):
Every watt of electricity consumed by an electric heater is converted to a
watt of heat.
--
Jerry Randal Bauer
Dover Beach
news:Xns9CCD2B25F415Dop...@192.168.1.101:
> plausible prose man (George...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>> On Nov 24, 3:46 am, Opus the Penguin
>>>
>>> No, at this point I'm just trying to understand the answers in
>>> order to grow as a penguin. I already bought a heater.
>>
>> Huh, which one?
>
> Something like this:
>
> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS3
> 51US351&q=lasko+%22ceramic+pedestal+heater%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=4469147
> 18935029036&ei=vKkLS5SQHYaotgPzg8mnAw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct
> =image&resnum=5&ved=0CCcQ8gIwBA#
>
> or <http://snipurl.com/lasko5395>
>
> My model number is one off from that--5934. The web thinks that model
> doesn't exist. Huh.
>
Is it nice and quiet? That's the other thing about space heaters, aside
from physics and efficiency and whatnot, they can be obnoxiously loud. I
had one in my office that I had to give to another frozen coworker who
didn't care about the racket. I went and looked for one that said
"quiet" on the box. The new one was only quieter, not quiet. But it was
tolerable, and my fingers unfroze enough so that I could use the
keyboard.
--
Dover
Opus the Penguin
Opus the Penguin
> Opus the Penguin says...
>>
>> I don't mind tangents. I don't mind unrelated information. I
>> don't mind being told the person doesn't know the answer to my
>> question. But when everyone says the answer is "yes," and then
>> restates the question as something different, I feel
>> communication is not yet taking place. Is it unrealistic to hope
>> for communication?
>
> Pay attention at the back.
>
> You got the answer,
I did not get the answer that addressed my specific question until
Jerry posted 4 minutes after you did.
> the rest is, basically, nitpicking. This kind
> of nitpicking is perfectly normal in AFCA, so you shouldn't be
> surprised by it.
>
Not only am I not surprised by it, I'm not worried about it. I'm
happy with the nitpicking. I don't understand why people are
interpreting my complaint as being one about nitpicking. That's not
my complaint.
My specific question was answered when Jerry said, "Every watt of
electricity consumed by an electric heater is converted to a
watt of heat." Until then I kept getting answers that said every watt
of electricity is converted to ... heat. This left open the
possibility that some heaters do a better job and convert less
electricity to the same amount of heat.
That may not seem like a possible interpretation to you, because you
know enough to know that's not the way it works.
It still seems counterintuitive to me that there's no way to design a
heater that produces more heat per kilowatt (nitpicking and questions
of direction aside). But if that's the answer, I'll try to remember
it.
Opus the Penguin
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns9CCD2B25F415Dop...@192.168.1.101:
>
>> plausible prose man (George...@aol.com) wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 24, 3:46 am, Opus the Penguin
>>>>
>>>> No, at this point I'm just trying to understand the answers in
>>>> order to grow as a penguin. I already bought a heater.
>>>
>>> Huh, which one?
>>
>> Something like this:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_
>> enUS3
>> 51US351&q=lasko+%22ceramic+pedestal+heater%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=44
>> 69147
>> 18935029036&ei=vKkLS5SQHYaotgPzg8mnAw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_resu
>> lt&ct =image&resnum=5&ved=0CCcQ8gIwBA#
>>
>> or <http://snipurl.com/lasko5395>
>>
>> My model number is one off from that--5934. The web thinks that
>> model doesn't exist. Huh.
>>
>
> Is it nice and quiet? That's the other thing about space heaters,
> aside from physics and efficiency and whatnot, they can be
> obnoxiously loud. I had one in my office that I had to give to
> another frozen coworker who didn't care about the racket. I went
> and looked for one that said "quiet" on the box. The new one was
> only quieter, not quiet. But it was tolerable, and my fingers
> unfroze enough so that I could use the keyboard.
>
I would say it's quiet. It sounds as though someone is operating a
vacuum cleaner very far away.
Boron Elgar
<opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>. It sounds as though someone is operating a
>vacuum cleaner very far away.
Music to my ears.
QueBarbara
wrote:
>Is it nice and quiet? That's the other thing about space heaters, aside
>from physics and efficiency and whatnot, they can be obnoxiously loud. I
>had one in my office that I had to give to another frozen coworker who
>didn't care about the racket. I went and looked for one that said
>"quiet" on the box. The new one was only quieter, not quiet. But it was
>tolerable, and my fingers unfroze enough so that I could use the
>keyboard.
Mine is nice and quiet and keeps my toes nice and warm, but not my
fingers. They need to make a heater in the shape of a working
keyboard.
--
QueBarbara
Dover Beach
news:ecvng51hc3a8q3u56...@4ax.com:
> Mine is nice and quiet and keeps my toes nice and warm, but not my
> fingers. They need to make a heater in the shape of a working
> keyboard.
>
You are a genius. We must get a prototype ready and start thinking
about how to spend the billions of dollars we'll make. Think of the
enhancements to productivity if you could actually move your fingers
fast enough to keyboard at normal speed.
--
Dover
QueBarbara
wrote:
>QueBarbara <que.barb...@go-awaygmail.com> wrote in
I'll start working on it as soon as the weather warms up again and my
fingers unfreeze.
--
QueBarbara
Mac
> QueBarbara <que.barbara.l...@go-awaygmail.com> wrote innews:ecvng51hc3a8q3u56...@4ax.com:
>
> > Mine is nice and quiet and keeps my toes nice and warm, but not my
> > fingers. They need to make a heater in the shape of a working
> > keyboard.
>
> You are a genius. We must get a prototype ready and start thinking
> about how to spend the billions of dollars we'll make. Think of the
> enhancements to productivity if you could actually move your fingers
> fast enough to keyboard at normal speed.
Umm....you are joking, right? I mean, they make these, although
heating a wristpad is about as effective, and easier.
Dover Beach
news:15da6267-c3fe-4656...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 24, 8:09�am, Dover Beach <moon.blanc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> QueBarbara <que.barbara.l...@go-awaygmail.com> wrote
>> innews:ecvng51hc3a8q
>>
>> > Mine is nice and quiet and keeps my toes nice and warm, but not my
>> > fingers. �They need to make a heater in the shape of a working
>> > keyboard.
>>
>> You are a genius. �We must get a prototype ready and start thinking
>> about how to spend the billions of dollars we'll make. �Think of the
>> enhancements to productivity if you could actually move your fingers
>> fast enough to keyboard at normal speed.
>
> Umm....you are joking, right? I mean, they make these, although
> heating a wristpad is about as effective, and easier.
>
>
Heated keyboards? Really? Could you point me to one? I'll look around
a little myself.
In my former office we all just wore fingerless gloves. They're not
great, though, because the thickness of the fabric interferes with fast
typing.
--
Dover
huey.c...@gmail.com
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Don K (d...@comcast.net) wrote:
> > > "Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > >> something that sounds different to me.
> > > Yes. That's because we're all eager nerds. Eager nerds are happy
> > > to explain why something always happens. And then, unsolicited, we
> > > will come up with a list of improbable exceptions to the general
> > > rule.
> > I'm not worried about the exceptions. I'm worried about how everyone
> > keeps saying "yes" and then goes on to explain they're saying "yes"
> > to something that sounds different from what I asked.
> Sounds like an unrealistic expectation. AFCA isn't structured to
> provide one definitive answer. The questioner -- that would be you --
> has to examine the various bits of response that stick to the wall and
> make sense of them, or determine there's no sense to be had.
Or ask for clarification. Or be reminded of an interesting story from
long ago concerning this one college roommate. Or post an interesting
thing that your cat did just now. Or start a flamewar with an idiot,
or a pun cascade. Or reply "This is false", citing a URL about carrots...
--
Huey
Dover Beach
news:Xns9CCD5FC356AA3mo...@130.133.1.4:
>>
>
> Heated keyboards? Really? Could you point me to one? I'll look
> around a little myself.
Well gol durn. Here's one right here:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/23/heated-keyboard-keeps-fingers-toasty-w
hilst-typing/
--
Dover
QueBarbara
wrote:
>Dover Beach <moon.b...@gmail.com> wrote in
Before I posted earlier I saw that one, but it didn't look too
pratical.
(Fix of broken link:
http://tinyurl.com/2dnlkj )
--
QueBarbara
Veronique
> Dover Beach <moon.blanc...@gmail.com> wrote innews:Xns9CCD5FC356AA3mo...@130.133.1.4:
>
>
>
> > Heated keyboards? Really? Could you point me to one? I'll look
> > around a little myself.
>
> Well gol durn. Here's one right here:
>
> hilst-typing/
Is that an actual product for sale or just a discussion item?
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
Opus the Penguin
> bill van <bil...@skipthis.shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Don K (d...@comcast.net) wrote:
>> > > "Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> > >> You all keep saying yes and then restating the problem to
>> > >> something that sounds different to me.
>> > > Yes. That's because we're all eager nerds. Eager nerds are
>> > > happy to explain why something always happens. And then,
>> > > unsolicited, we will come up with a list of improbable
>> > > exceptions to the general rule.
>> > I'm not worried about the exceptions. I'm worried about how
>> > everyone keeps saying "yes" and then goes on to explain they're
>> > saying "yes" to something that sounds different from what I
>> > asked.
>> Sounds like an unrealistic expectation. AFCA isn't structured to
>> provide one definitive answer. The questioner -- that would be
>> you -- has to examine the various bits of response that stick to
>> the wall and make sense of them, or determine there's no sense to
>> be had.
>
> Or ask for clarification.
That was where I came in.
> Or be reminded of an interesting story
> from long ago concerning this one college roommate. Or post an
> interesting thing that your cat did just now. Or start a flamewar
> with an idiot, or a pun cascade. Or reply "This is false", citing
> a URL about carrots...
>
All of these are wonderful traditions as well.