Sleeping under canvas

[Pastime]

Sadly, it's many years since I was last able to go camping, but I do
recall that sleeping in a tent guaranteed a heavy and very satisfying
sleep, despite the relative lack of comfort.

Presumably, this isn't to do with the tent itself, but rather with
being outdoors in the countryside. Sleeping under the stars[1] isn't
something I've ever been fortunate enough to do.

So, assuming I'm not mistaken, what's the primary physiological (or
psychological) reason for this? More oxygen? Lack of pollutants? Are
canvas vapours soporific?

[1] The celestial sort.
--
John

[Greg Goss]

Pastime <wsub...@tznvy.pbz> wrote:

>Sleeping under the stars[1] isn't
>something I've ever been fortunate enough to do.
>

>[1] The celestial sort.

You've been successful at the groupie quest?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Greg Goss]

Pastime <wsub...@tznvy.pbz> wrote:

>Presumably, this isn't to do with the tent itself, but rather with
>being outdoors in the countryside. Sleeping under the stars[1] isn't
>something I've ever been fortunate enough to do.

>[1] The celestial sort.

I grew up in a family that believed in camping. Most of our summer
vacations were done in tents. Typically three nights at a campground,
drive half a day, three more, etc. when we were younger, then one
campground for the whole couple of weeks as they got older.

I don't remember anything being better or worse sleeps. Often the
days involved a lot of hiking, so you're more tired at the end of the
day. The nights are MUCH darker away from the cityes, which may
produce better melatonin dosages. I grew up with camping trips in the
BC mountains, where the air might be thinner than home in the deep
river valleys.

[Richard R. Hershberger]

My camping usually was actually backpacking. There is nothing like
hiking ten miles with a full pack to make freeze dried food taste
wonderful and sleeping on just a thin pad comfortable. On those
occasions when I camped without walking my way to exhaustion, I slept
rather poorly.

Why did you never sleep sans tent? In nice weather, and depending on
the insect and larger critter conditions, it is very doable. Just
skip the tent, or set it up just in case but lay out the sleeping bag
outside.

There also is (or was, when I was paying attention some twenty years
ago) an ultralight backpacking school of thought that advocated no
tents at all. The idea was you would carry a tarp and bits of rope,
and through various clever manipulations would rig the canvas over
you. I fondly remember reading articles by guys who would talk about
how they were caught in a blizzard but were perfectly comfortable
under the tarp. They were lying, of course. They were utterly
miserable the whole time, lucky to keep their toes, and rejoiced at
their good fortune of coming out alive rather than having hikers the
following Spring find their bones scattered by scavengers. But
admitting that wouldn't be manly.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Bob]

On May 18, 7:43 pm, Pastime <wsubc...@tznvy.pbz> wrote:

If it's Succus, it's from boredom. Otherwise, it's from a combination
of boredom and whatever exertion accompanied the camping, bivouacing,
whatever.

[Heather]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 00:43:46 +0100, Pastime <wsub...@tznvy.pbz>
wrote:

Perhaps it is because you have been exercising quite strenuously so
are more physically tired than normal.

I personally find camping not worth the trouble. Being eaten alive by
every mosquito within miles is not my idea of fun even though the
people around me are happy to have the sacrificial protection. The
only person I know of who attracts mosquitoes more than I do is
Kajikit, who is thousands of miles away.


--
Heather

[Kevin]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 00:43:46 +0100, Pastime <wsub...@tznvy.pbz>
wrote:

You're likely to be physically tired, as other people have said. And I
think fresh air has a lot to do with it.

Also if you're sleeping outside you likely haven't been looking at a
screen all day. I sleep like a rock if I work in the yard or in the
shop and am not on my computer or in front of the tv for a couple of
days. I obviously like using my laptop and reading my kindle and
watching tv, but I can almost chart a perfect linear relationship
between increased hours looking at a screen and decreased quality of
sleep. A book doesn't have the same effect.

--
Kevin

[bill van]

In article <aulgp89oumcnaciem...@4ax.com>,

Secret: find campgrounds by the seashore. No mosquitos.

bill

[Mary]

That's why we go in the fall, after the cold has killed the bugs.

Mary

[Heather]

On Sat, 18 May 2013 22:45:11 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
wrote:

I have one word for you: sandflies.

[Heather]

In most of Australia it is mosquitoes all year round.


--
Heather

[Mary]

Yikes - I hadn't realized that. I was just having a discussion in
another forum about this, kind of - one of the benefits of living in a
place where it's cold part of the year is the respite from bugs.

I mean, this year it snowed on May 3 - I haven't seen a mosquito yet.

Mary

[Gus]

"Heather" <redbo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sgdip857lq8jacgg6...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 18 May 2013 22:45:11 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>

>>Secret: find campgrounds by the seashore. No mosquitos.
>>
>
> I have one word for you: sandflies.

Yeah, I don't see the shore being that much better. Windy conditions keep
them grounded, but has to be pretty windy and they breed in stagnant water
which would seem to be plentiful near any water (except maybe the Dead Sea
or Salt Lake?). One of the worst places for mosquitoes where I grew up was
the peninsula out into Lake Erie. In the evening, they took over... Odd,
when I was young I got mosquito bites, but I can't remember having one in
decades. There are tons around here so it's not that I'm not around them.
And mosquito control people say it's not that you don't get bit--everyone
does--but whether you have a reaction, and get a scratchy bump. But even
without the reaction, they are annoying flying around ones head and
occasionally buzzing by ears. I have read diet can effect how attractive
you are to mosquitoes, though not sure that has much effect. About the only
thing is Deet or such, but that has drawbacks. My ex had a terrible time,
would have 3-4 bites within 2 minutes of being outside. Antihistamines
helped her with the scratching, but those aren't something that should be
used very often. The guy at the vegetable stand sold my wife on citronella
and she got a couple plants, but didn't seem to make much difference. Maybe
a little when she was near them.

I have rarely camped, but one time went on an excursion with a small group
from school to Sand Dune Park (in Colorado) Strange place to see sand
dunes, but something about how the wind blows and the geography of the spot.
It was really strange. Just like being in a desert when you got into the
dunes. We camped nearby in the middle of nowhere. I got up to go to the
bathroom in the middle of the night and it was a clear night... I had
never seen so many stars in my life. Without light pollution of any nearby
cities, it was amazing. Little white pin pricks everywhere. Must have been
tens of thousands. Most incredible light show I have ever seen.

On that same trip, we were driving along and saw a ton of sand cranes. Then
all of a sudden the instructor got all excited; he noticed a few whooping
cranes and stopped the van, and we got to see some for a few minutes. There
are only a few hundred left.

[Pastime]

The darkness hadn't occurred to me. That's a good point, another
possible factor.
--
John

[Gus]

"Mary" <mrfea...@a0l.com> wrote in message
news:TZOdnQNiYJGXoQTM...@mchsi.com...

Aren't some of the worst biting bugs and mosquitoes up North (northern US
and Canada) when it's summer?

[Pastime]

Richard R. Hershberger wrote:

> On May 18, 7:43�pm, Pastime <wsubc...@tznvy.pbz> wrote:
> > Sadly, it's many years since I was last able to go camping, but I do
> > recall that sleeping in a tent guaranteed a heavy and very satisfying
> > sleep, despite the relative lack of comfort.
> >
> > Presumably, this isn't to do with the tent itself, but rather with
> > being outdoors in the countryside. Sleeping under the stars[1] isn't
> > something I've ever been fortunate enough to do.
> >
> > So, assuming I'm not mistaken, what's the primary physiological (or
> > psychological) reason for this? More oxygen? Lack of pollutants? Are
> > canvas vapours soporific?
> >
> > [1] The celestial sort.
>

> My camping usually was actually backpacking. There is nothing like
> hiking ten miles with a full pack to make freeze dried food taste
> wonderful and sleeping on just a thin pad comfortable. On those
> occasions when I camped without walking my way to exhaustion, I slept
> rather poorly.

Yes, I've done long treks with tent on back, but most of the camping
I've done has been completely sedentary (once the tent's erected on
the first day).

When I was a kid, my father was a teacher, and because my mother
wasn't working, we had the long school holidays in which to go places
in our van, which was converted into a camper. We kids usually slept
in a tent which was a kind of annexe onto the van itself. We did that
all over the place, from Scotland to Spain.

So when I think of camping, I think foremost of very little physical
effort involved in getting there.

> Why did you never sleep sans tent? In nice weather, and depending on
> the insect and larger critter conditions, it is very doable. Just
> skip the tent, or set it up just in case but lay out the sleeping bag
> outside.

It's just one of those things that never happened, I guess. Most of
the time it's not warm enough or dry enough in this country,
unfortunately.
--
John

[Pastime]

Like a banana?
--
John

[Tim Wright]

Hunt them with a 12ga in Minnesota.

--
Trying to understand the behavior of some people is like trying to smell
the color nine.
Tim W

[Pastime]

These days, I'd agree. I spend FAR too much time in front of a screen
(computer, not TV (I don't have a TV)). But it wouldn't have been much
of a factor during my camping career, which largely predated[1] home
computing. And I never did watch much TV, even as a kid.

But I do feel that I always slept much better outdoors than indoors,
and other people I've camped with have said the same thing.

[1] Not in the sense of killing and eating.
--
John

[Mary]

On 5/19/2013 4:25 PM, Gus wrote:

Sure - hence my comment a few posts up about only going camping in fall,
after the cold has killed them.

Mary

[bill van]

In article <sgdip857lq8jacgg6...@4ax.com>,

I don't recommend camping on sand, for that reason and because sand is
really hard and uncomfortable to sleep on. Here on the Wet Coast of
Canada, there are many campgrounds just off the beaches among the trees.
That's what I was thinking of. Certainly there are bugs outdoors, but in
that environment, none that are particularly bothersome.

That said, we don't camp any more because Sue's legs don't work very
well and once she's on the ground/in the tent, it's very hard for her to
get up again.

I have lived on a half-mile-wide peninsula between two bodies of salt
water for nearly 20 years, and I think I've seen one mosquito in or
around my home in all that time.

bill

[David J. Martin]

The mosquito is the state bird of Minnesota.

David

[Mary]

The loon would beg to differ. But as it's been raining for two days, I
suspect we can look forward to a hatch of mosquitoes by the end of the week.

Mary

[David J. Martin]

I saw it on a t-shirt, so it must be true.

David

[Rick B.]

David J. Martin <djmarti...@tamu.edu> wrote in
news:1997151610390698009.11490...@news.eternal-
september.org:

> "Gus" <gus.o...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Aren't some of the worst biting bugs and mosquitoes up North (northern US
>> and Canada) when it's summer?
>
> The mosquito is the state bird of Minnesota.

I bet you can still find this postcard for sale somewhere:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7115/7792497430_ded2c90044_z.jpg

[Gus]

"Mary" <mrfea...@a0l.com> wrote in message

news:_uSdnTXoeYGt_QTM...@mchsi.com...

Do you really need 10,000 lakes? Maybe you should drain some of the water.

[Mary]

Oh, right - next you'll tell me you're one of those greedy people in the
desert Southwest who keep wanting us to send them the contents of Lake
Superior.

Mary

[Hactar]

In article <billvan-46AF8A...@news.shawcable.net>,

bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
> In article <sgdip857lq8jacgg6...@4ax.com>,
> Heather <redbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 18 May 2013 22:45:11 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >In article <aulgp89oumcnaciem...@4ax.com>,
> > > Heather <redbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I personally find camping not worth the trouble. Being eaten alive by
> > >> every mosquito within miles is not my idea of fun even though the
> > >> people around me are happy to have the sacrificial protection. The
> > >> only person I know of who attracts mosquitoes more than I do is
> > >> Kajikit, who is thousands of miles away.
> > >
> > >Secret: find campgrounds by the seashore. No mosquitos.
> >
> > I have one word for you: sandflies.
>
> I don't recommend camping on sand, for that reason and because sand is
> really hard and uncomfortable to sleep on.

Plus sand won't hold tent stakes for crap.

OTOH I went camping once with my parents (or maybe just my father), and
a few times with the Boy Scouts. These days, you'd be hard-pressed to
find wheelchair-friendly outdoorsy experiences with power for bipap
units. I mean, with those conditions, it's not really camping, more
like a hotel with really crappy beds and no maid service. And you'd
think differently, but I've never heard of a cpap/bipap that runs from
SCUBA tanks and batteries.

--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
LIBRA: A big promotion is just around the corner for someone
much more talented than you. Laughter is the very best medicine,
remember that when your appendix bursts next week. -- Weird Al

[Gus]

"Mary" <mrfea...@a0l.com> wrote in message

news:LrydnVpcpYDW9QTM...@mchsi.com...

I'm actually in the Ohio Valley which has it's share of mosquitoes, and
allergens. But maybe you can work out a trade with the Southwesterners.
Trade some warmth from the SW in the winter, in exchange for water from
Superior. Isn't Superior the deepest lake and the water pretty cold. The
SW would probably appreciate the cold water in the summer, and MN would
probably appreciate warm air in the winter. Perhaps use Internet (or
pneumatic) tubes for heat and water transfer?

I was listening to On the Media earlier, and they said that at one time
pneumatic tubes were all the rage. And some futurists decades ago predicted
people would be getting newspapers delivered by pneumatic tubes... I can
remember when little my dad would go to a drive thru at the bank and you'd
put your deposit in a tube and it shot to the teller in the bank. And they
would shoot back the tube with your deposit slip and and any cash back to
you. It was kinda cool. Especially, the visceral "whoosh!" when the tube
left and came back. I enjoyed going with him when he used the drive thru.

.

[Tim Wright]

I remember when department stores had pneumatic tubes between the
cashiers and the money people in the back room. You'd pay the cashier,
they'd put the sales ticket and your cash into the tube and the folks in
the back would make the change and send the receipt.

Paris also had pneumatic mail delivery in the 19th century.
http://www.cix.co.uk/~mhayhurst/jdhayhurst/pneumatic/book1.html

[Les Albert]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 21:45:38 -0500, Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The first New York City subway was a pneumatic tube subway in 1870.
Here is the story: http://tinyurl.com/bh4d3a5

Les

[Bob]

On May 19, 1:45 am, bill van <bill...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

> Secret: find campgrounds by the seashore. No mosquitos.

How close by the sea shore? Actually on the beach? Because I've
experienced lots of mosquito-filled air easily within 1000' from salt
water. If this is working right, check out the area just south of the
traffic circle here:
https://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=40.859233,-73.801732&spn=0.010971,0.034332&t=m&z=15&vpsrc=6&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=relatedproducts_maps&utm_source=mapseditbutton_normal

Bob in the frequently mosquito-ish Bronx

[bill van]

In article
<baa7f465-d79f-41b8...@z10g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

Yeah, the thing I was forgetting is that where there's standing water,
there's potential for mosquitos. So if there are swampy areas inland
from salt water, you may indeed get mosquitos.

Where I live and where I have camped on the Pacific coast, I've been
blessed by a combination of salt water and lack of standing fresh water.
In my neighbourhood, I really don't see a mosquito from one decade to
the next.

bill

[Lesmond]

Oh, yeah.

--
If there's a nuclear winter, at least it'll snow.

[Greg Goss]

"Gus" <gus.o...@geemail.com> wrote:

>"Heather" <redbo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:sgdip857lq8jacgg6...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 22:45:11 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
>
>>>Secret: find campgrounds by the seashore. No mosquitos.
>>>
>>
>> I have one word for you: sandflies.

I lived for fifteen years in Vancouver. Even though I lived for seven
years about eight blocks from "Mosquito Creek", Vancouver has very few
mosquitos. I've been told that it's because it's downwind from the
ocean, but I'm not sure if that's relevant.

I grew up in Kelowna. When I was eight, the city stopped spraying DDT
every spring, and the mosquitos were fairly bad (compared to before)
for two years. My father built a couple of "purple marten condos" to
attract bug-eating birds, and after another year or two we were back
to no mosquitos again. We slept in the back yard a lot in the summer
when I was 9 to 12 or so, with no mosquito problems.

Kelowna is a "semi-desert" with 13 inches of rain a year. The part of
the city where we lived was former lake bed with about eight inches of
topsoil over good sand, so there wasn't much standing water, except
for a couple of ponds "below the hill". And the ponds were good
tadpole sources, so mosquitos didn't last long.

>
>
>I have read diet can effect how attractive
>you are to mosquitoes, though not sure that has much effect.

I have seen write-ups that claim it's related to levels of one of the
B vitamins, and that taking brewer's yeast starting about a month
before mosquito season can have a lot of effect. Of course your
comment about everyone gets bit but only some people get the bump may
be the impact of the vitamin, rather than actually convincing the
mosquitos that you'll taste bad.

>dunes. We camped nearby in the middle of nowhere. I got up to go to the
>bathroom in the middle of the night and it was a clear night... I had
>never seen so many stars in my life. Without light pollution of any nearby
>cities, it was amazing. Little white pin pricks everywhere. Must have been
>tens of thousands. Most incredible light show I have ever seen.

CW McCall's "Aurora Borealis" talks about this:

>I remember a time a bunch of us were in a canyon of the Green River in
>Wyoming; it was a night like this. And we had our rafts pulled up on
>the bank an' turned over so we could sleep on 'em, and one of the guys
>from New York said, "Hey! Look at the smog in the sky! Smog clear out
>here in the sticks!" And somebody said, "Hey, Joe, that's not smog;
>that's the Milky Way."
>
>Joe had never seen the Milky Way.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Greg Goss]

bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

>I have lived on a half-mile-wide peninsula between two bodies of salt
>water for nearly 20 years, and I think I've seen one mosquito in or
>around my home in all that time.

Across one of those inlets is "Mosquito Creek". But even a half mile
downwind of Mosquito Creek, there were still no mosquitos.

[Greg Goss]

ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar) wrote:

>bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

>> I don't recommend camping on sand, for that reason and because sand is
>> really hard and uncomfortable to sleep on.
>
>Plus sand won't hold tent stakes for crap.

My older brother and I hiked the "West Coast Trail" in 1983. We slept
on beaches for three of the nights.

The tents we used used bent aluminum poles to hold the tent shape, and
the stakes were only important to keep the tent from blowing away when
you weren't in it.

That year, a vandalism crew had wrecked the cablecar runs over the
creek canyons. The trail is mostly on a sandstone plateau a few
hundred feet above the coast -- there are ladders down to the creek
fords, and hand-pull cable cars across where the creeks cut their way
down to sea level. Anyhow, long hiking including a lot of ladder
climbing with a fairly large backpack leaves you pretty tired,
especially if you're as out of shap as I've normally been.

I don't think we bothered with the tent stakes for either tent.

[Greg Goss]

bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

>Yeah, the thing I was forgetting is that where there's standing water,
>there's potential for mosquitos. So if there are swampy areas inland
>from salt water, you may indeed get mosquitos.
>
>Where I live and where I have camped on the Pacific coast, I've been
>blessed by a combination of salt water and lack of standing fresh water.
>In my neighbourhood, I really don't see a mosquito from one decade to
>the next.

I just remembered that there was a pond about two blocks from where I
lived, where a burnt-out restaurant was removed, leaving a hole in the
ground for two years with water in the bottom. And "Mosquito Creek" a
half mile away. But no bugs in the air. This is across a salt inlet
from where Bill lives.

I also lived on 18th avenue, about a mile past the other inlet Bill
lived near, about a mile from the salt water, and again no mosquitos.
But there were a lot of songbirds in the neighborhood.

I've also lived in three other places around Vancouver - 10th Ave
about a half mile from the water, and in Surrey about three miles from
the brackish river.

Even Surrey didn't have many mosquitos. Vanvouver's freedom from
mosquitos must be related to something other than the salt coastline.

[Greg Goss]

"Gus" <gus.o...@geemail.com> wrote:
>"Mary" <mrfea...@a0l.com> wrote in message

>Aren't some of the worst biting bugs and mosquitoes up North (northern US
>and Canada) when it's summer?

Yeah, but you get a couple of months of outdoors time in the spring,
and depending on your seasonal patterns, perhaps another month in the
fall.

Calgary has a fair number of mosquitos, at least compared to Vancouver
or Kelowna where I spent most of my life. But they haven't appeared
yet. I think mosquito season starts towards the end of June.

[Gus]

"Greg Goss" <go...@gossg.org> wrote in message
news:avun9i...@mid.individual.net...

> CW McCall's "Aurora Borealis" talks about this:
>
>>I remember a time a bunch of us were in a canyon of the Green River in
>>Wyoming; it was a night like this. And we had our rafts pulled up on
>>the bank an' turned over so we could sleep on 'em, and one of the guys
>>from New York said, "Hey! Look at the smog in the sky! Smog clear out
>>here in the sticks!" And somebody said, "Hey, Joe, that's not smog;
>>that's the Milky Way."
>>
>>Joe had never seen the Milky Way.

Had not heard it before... Near the end he says: "Life is a collection of
memories"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFGMMmX843w

[Greg Goss]

Mary <mrfea...@a0l.com> wrote:

>> Do you really need 10,000 lakes? Maybe you should drain some of the water.
>
>Oh, right - next you'll tell me you're one of those greedy people in the
>desert Southwest who keep wanting us to send them the contents of Lake
>Superior.

I'm fascinated by the mega-mega project proposals. I'm looking for
the one you're talking about and haven't found it yet, but the NAWAPA
to send Alaskan water to Montana is interesting, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance

The one you're talking about was much simpler -- I think it just
involved a diversion through Chicago and running a short flat river
backwards for a ways.

There was also a plan to send Lake Superior water up and over the
Canadian Shield into James Bay for power generation, coupled with
walling James Bay off from the rest of Hudson Bay. According to the
article I read, brackish James Bay isn't suitable for either
freshwater or saltwater fish, and is less productive than a simple
fresh lake.

There was a further one, that involved rebuilding most of the rivers
of the continent, but I can't remember what to google for. The name I
thought I remembered was the much smaller NAWAPA listed above.

[Greg Goss]

"Gus" <gus.o...@geemail.com> wrote:

>I was listening to On the Media earlier, and they said that at one time
>pneumatic tubes were all the rage. And some futurists decades ago predicted
>people would be getting newspapers delivered by pneumatic tubes... I can
>remember when little my dad would go to a drive thru at the bank and you'd
>put your deposit in a tube and it shot to the teller in the bank. And they
>would shoot back the tube with your deposit slip and and any cash back to
>you. It was kinda cool. Especially, the visceral "whoosh!" when the tube
>left and came back. I enjoyed going with him when he used the drive thru.

The person ahead of me paid by cheque once at a warehouse store
sometime about 2008. The clerk put the cheque into one of those tubes
and whooshed it to the accountant who had the say on whether or not to
accept a cheque. A minute later, a phone call came down and the
transaction proceeded.

[S. Checker]

bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

> Yeah, the thing I was forgetting is that where there's standing water,
> there's potential for mosquitos. So if there are swampy areas inland
> from salt water, you may indeed get mosquitos.
>
> Where I live and where I have camped on the Pacific coast, I've been
> blessed by a combination of salt water and lack of standing fresh water.
> In my neighbourhood, I really don't see a mosquito from one decade to
> the next.

Brigantine, NJ is on the Atlantic coast and has nice beaches and a
pleasant climate. It also is home to greenhead flies:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~insects/greenheads.htm

Despite the cool scientific tone of the article cited, greenheads are
MONSTROUS ALIEN predators that live to FEAST on human FLESH, often
removing entire ORGANS in a single bite. If you are at the seashore and
a greenhead lands on a friend or relative's back, the best reponse is a
TACTICAL STRIKE. Anything less than that carries the risk of the
individual greenhead surviving.

So needless to say, I wouldn't camp there on salary.
--
She will take you to another world
where the winds of confusion swirl
She will call you honey
-- Michael Timmins

[paulydak]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 19:21:12 -0400, ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar)
wrote:

Huh, looks like there's a battery pack dealie thing available for, um,
I gotta go look, it's a ResMed S9, not sure the exact model, it's all
a bit cryptic to me for some reason, but looks like it could be
plugged into a 12V power source. Or an inverter for 120. Dunno about
the SCUBA part, tho....

--

Pauly-non-air-splinted

[paulydak]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 20:21:38 -0700, Les Albert <lalb...@aol.com>
wrote:

Pneumatic tubes were a huge deal in a lot of big downtown areas, for a
while. Chicago comes to mind, as well as NYC.

Costco still uses them in their stores.

--

Pauly-whoosh ka-thunk

[Roy Smith]

Most of the banks here have pneumatic tubes at their drive-throughs.
The base plan seems to be a sliding drawer adjacent to the building and
then staggered drive throughs (so the teller can see each one) with
tubes.

Roy

[Bob]

On May 20, 3:43 am, bill van <bill...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

> In article
> <baa7f465-d79f-41b8-be35-25951b6a4...@z10g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

>
> Bob <robg...@bestweb.net> wrote:
> > On May 19, 1:45 am, bill van <bill...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > > Secret: find campgrounds by the seashore. No mosquitos.
>
> > How close by the sea shore? Actually on the beach? Because I've
> > experienced lots of mosquito-filled air easily within 1000' from salt
> > water. If this is working right, check out the area just south of the
> > traffic circle here:

> >https://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=40.859233,-73.801732&spn=0.010971,...

> > t=m&z=15&vpsrc=6&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=relatedproducts_maps&utm_sour
> > ce=mapseditbutton_normal
>
> > Bob in the frequently mosquito-ish Bronx
>
> Yeah, the thing I was forgetting is that where there's standing water,
> there's potential for mosquitos. So if there are swampy areas inland
> from salt water, you may indeed get mosquitos.
>
> Where I live and where I have camped on the Pacific coast, I've been
> blessed by a combination of salt water and lack of standing fresh water.
> In my neighbourhood, I really don't see a mosquito from one decade to
> the next.

The area on the map is Pelham Bay Park. There's no standing FRESH
water around there. There are, however, tidal pools and some salt
marsh.

[Bob]

On May 20, 1:38 pm, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

> I'm fascinated by the mega-mega project proposals.

Me too, but only the ones fancied by super-villains.

[Gus]

"Roy Smith" <rsmi...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kne3no$eru$1...@dont-email.me...

Seems like it would be a real pain if something got stuck in the tube. I
wonder too how efficient it is. Seems like it would take a fair amount of
power to suck (push?) objects through the tubes and gravity... I hadn't
realized till this discussion, I don't think I have ever gone through a
drive-in on my own at a bank. Other than ATM. With direct deposit and
online banking, nary a need to go to a bank anymore.

[Snidely]

Pastime is guilty of <q4hip894qtbdan8e2...@4ax.com> as of
5/19/2013 2:42:49 PM

> But I do feel that I always slept much better outdoors than indoors,
> and other people I've camped with have said the same thing.

When I was a kid living in the suburbs of Portland (Oregon), I had an
older aunt who lived on the coast. We'd drive a couple of hours
through verdant fields and across lush mountains (the Coast Range is a
bit of a rain forest ... lots of wild rhododendrons and azaleas, not
to mention skunk cabbage) and arrive in fresh salt winds. If it was an
overnight trip (or longer, in the summer) we'd sleep much better than
at home.

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

[BillTurlock]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 07:40:09 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

>bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>I have lived on a half-mile-wide peninsula between two bodies of salt
>>water for nearly 20 years, and I think I've seen one mosquito in or
>>around my home in all that time.
>
>Across one of those inlets is "Mosquito Creek". But even a half mile
>downwind of Mosquito Creek, there were still no mosquitos.

Help me out here.

We travelled from central Wisconsin to Montréal for Expo67 by car. We
pulled a small camping trailer, and hit a few camping parks along the
way. One in particular was notable for its screeching pea fowl, and
mosquitos thicker than air.

Was this Mosquito Province?

[BillTurlock]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 12:09:25 -0700, paulydak <I...@home.sleepin> wrote:

>
>>
>>The first New York City subway was a pneumatic tube subway in 1870.
>>Here is the story: http://tinyurl.com/bh4d3a5
>
>Pneumatic tubes were a huge deal in a lot of big downtown areas, for a
>while. Chicago comes to mind, as well as NYC.
>
>Costco still uses them in their stores.

They do.

In my small town in central Wisc, the Penny's had little cups or metal
baskets which fit sockets on a trolley wire. Your money would go to
the cashier, visible on the mezzanine, where your purchase would be
recorded, and any change due would be retuned via wire. Fun to watch.

This would have been in the late 40s - early 50s.

Fuck! I'm old.

Bill "how terribly strange to be seventy" Turlock

[Nick Spalding]

BillTurlock wrote, in <ed1mp8phflu1sim1l...@4ax.com>
on Mon, 20 May 2013 22:31:41 -0700:

George Jenkin's shop in Wexford that still had those in the late 70s,
maybe still has. I must ask the daughter who lives in those parts.
--
Nick Spalding

[Xho Jingleheimerschmidt]

On 05/19/2013 04:11 PM, David J. Martin wrote:

> "Gus" <gus.o...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Aren't some of the worst biting bugs and mosquitoes up North (northern US
>> and Canada) when it's summer?
>

> The mosquito is the state bird of Minnesota.

They are the air-force of the Upper Peninsula

Xho
--
With apologies to KI Sawyer

[Xho Jingleheimerschmidt]

On 05/20/2013 02:14 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
>
> Most of the banks here have pneumatic tubes at their drive-throughs.
> The base plan seems to be a sliding drawer adjacent to the building and
> then staggered drive throughs (so the teller can see each one) with
> tubes.

I haven't seen those operational in years. All of the ones that used
have to have tubes have been converted to ATMs, but sometimes the tubes
are still there vestigially. Often the one with the sliding drawer was
converted as well, but sometimes not.

Xho

[Kevin]

Both of my banks here still use these.

[BillTurlock]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 21:47:00 -0500, Kevin <K_S_O...@yh.com> wrote:

>
>>I haven't seen those operational in years. All of the ones that used
>>have to have tubes have been converted to ATMs, but sometimes the tubes
>>are still there vestigially. Often the one with the sliding drawer was
>>converted as well, but sometimes not.
>
>Both of my banks here still use these.

I tried to rob one of those bank branches once. Put a note in the
drawer: "Give me all the money!" ...and with it, the gub.

[Tim Wright]

You forgot to put "point this gub at your head while you bag the money"
on your note, didn't you.

--
Trying to understand the behavior of some people is like trying to smell
the color nine.
Tim W

[BillTurlock]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 22:25:50 -0500, Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/22/2013 9:59 PM, BillTurlock wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 May 2013 21:47:00 -0500, Kevin <K_S_O...@yh.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I haven't seen those operational in years. All of the ones that used
>>>> have to have tubes have been converted to ATMs, but sometimes the tubes
>>>> are still there vestigially. Often the one with the sliding drawer was
>>>> converted as well, but sometimes not.
>>>
>>> Both of my banks here still use these.
>>
>> I tried to rob one of those bank branches once. Put a note in the
>> drawer: "Give me all the money!" ...and with it, the gub.
>>
>You forgot to put "point this gub at your head while you bag the money"
>on your note, didn't you.

So _that's_ why it didn't work, Damn!

[Nick Spalding]

Nick Spalding wrote, in <6lhmp81e9548ggu3d...@4ax.com>
on Tue, 21 May 2013 11:06:13 +0100:

I was talking to her yesterday. The shop is long gone.
--
Nick Spalding

[N Jill Marsh]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 00:43:46 +0100, Pastime <wsub...@tznvy.pbz>
wrote:

>Sadly, it's many years since I was last able to go camping, but I do
>recall that sleeping in a tent guaranteed a heavy and very satisfying
>sleep, despite the relative lack of comfort.

Huh, I wouldn't describe sleeping in a tent that way, I tend to sleep
pretty lightly.

>Presumably, this isn't to do with the tent itself, but rather with
>being outdoors in the countryside. Sleeping under the stars[1] isn't
>something I've ever been fortunate enough to do.
>
>So, assuming I'm not mistaken, what's the primary physiological (or
>psychological) reason for this? More oxygen? Lack of pollutants? Are
>canvas vapours soporific?

I like sleeping in tents, but I think it's mostly related to being
tired after a long day, full of food, warm and dry but still in the
outdoors, and, I suppose, just liking it.

--
nj"internym here"m

Send reggae, guns & numbers.

[N Jill Marsh]

On Sat, 18 May 2013 20:34:46 -0700 (PDT), "Richard R. Hershberger"
<rrh...@acme.com> wrote:

>There also is (or was, when I was paying attention some twenty years
>ago) an ultralight backpacking school of thought that advocated no
>tents at all.

Yeah, well, they were mostly dumb.

> The idea was you would carry a tarp and bits of rope,
>and through various clever manipulations would rig the canvas over
>you.

This works perfectly well if it's not windy and not bug season.

> I fondly remember reading articles by guys who would talk about
>how they were caught in a blizzard but were perfectly comfortable
>under the tarp. They were lying, of course. They were utterly
>miserable the whole time, lucky to keep their toes, and rejoiced at
>their good fortune of coming out alive rather than having hikers the
>following Spring find their bones scattered by scavengers. But
>admitting that wouldn't be manly.

I usually don't use a tent for snow camping, we use tarps and holes to
make lean tos, or we make quinsies. Tents have certain drawbacks for
normal, fun type snow camping, although if you're in blizzard
conditions or certain other extreme conditions they are necessary for
comfort.

[N Jill Marsh]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 15:38:55 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
wrote:

>I don't recommend camping on sand, for that reason and because sand is

>really hard and uncomfortable to sleep on. Here on the Wet Coast of
>Canada, there are many campgrounds just off the beaches among the trees.
>That's what I was thinking of. Certainly there are bugs outdoors, but in
>that environment, none that are particularly bothersome.
>
>That said, we don't camp any more because Sue's legs don't work very
>well and once she's on the ground/in the tent, it's very hard for her to
>get up again.

>
>I have lived on a half-mile-wide peninsula between two bodies of salt
>water for nearly 20 years, and I think I've seen one mosquito in or
>around my home in all that time.

In BC, I have only camped in and around Kelowna, sort of between
Vancouver and Whistler, on Long Beach, and near Port Alberni. We
always said that BC just doesn't have bugs.

[N Jill Marsh]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 19:21:12 -0400, ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar)
wrote:

>Plus sand won't hold tent stakes for crap.

You don't use stakes for sand, there are other techniques that work
just fine.

[N Jill Marsh]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 15:54:34 -0500, Mary <mrfea...@a0l.com> wrote:

>I mean, this year it snowed on May 3 - I haven't seen a mosquito yet.

No mosquitoes here, yet, but the blackflies are out. In force. The
Best Beloved looks like he has measles, but it's not like you can slap
them when you're climbing.

[John Mc.]

You're a better person than I Gunga Jill. There was a time in my youth when
I enjoyed camping. But now I find I prefer a warm, cozy but not too soft
bed.

John Mc.
Plus room service.

[Kevin]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 19:21:12 -0400, ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar)
wrote:

>In article <billvan-46AF8A...@news.shawcable.net>,
>bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
>> In article <sgdip857lq8jacgg6...@4ax.com>,

>> Heather <redbo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>> > On Sat, 18 May 2013 22:45:11 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >In article <aulgp89oumcnaciem...@4ax.com>,
>> > > Heather <redbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I personally find camping not worth the trouble. Being eaten alive by
>> > >> every mosquito within miles is not my idea of fun even though the
>> > >> people around me are happy to have the sacrificial protection. The
>> > >> only person I know of who attracts mosquitoes more than I do is
>> > >> Kajikit, who is thousands of miles away.
>> > >

>> > >Secret: find campgrounds by the seashore. No mosquitos.

Well...

>> > I have one word for you: sandflies.

Not if it's windy enough. I've gone camping in June in Texas on the
coast for a week on end and never had a bug bite. But it was blowing
in the 20s all day and in the teens all night. Lovely.

>> I don't recommend camping on sand, for that reason and because sand is
>> really hard and uncomfortable to sleep on.

Not if you have an inflatable mattress like a sensible person.

>Plus sand won't hold tent stakes for crap.

Long tent stakes work fine if it's not really windy, but if it is you
might want to get some small dog-lead corkscrews. Those are great in
sand.

Of course, if it's nice there's no reason to sit in a tent anyway.
Just sleep on the boat, or on the beach, it's lovely.

>OTOH I went camping once with my parents (or maybe just my father), and
>a few times with the Boy Scouts. These days, you'd be hard-pressed to
>find wheelchair-friendly outdoorsy experiences with power for bipap
>units. I mean, with those conditions, it's not really camping, more
>like a hotel with really crappy beds and no maid service. And you'd
>think differently, but I've never heard of a cpap/bipap that runs from
>SCUBA tanks and batteries.

That sounds tenuous.

--
Kevin

[Kevin]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 15:38:55 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
wrote:

>I have lived on a half-mile-wide peninsula between two bodies of salt
>water for nearly 20 years, and I think I've seen one mosquito in or
>around my home in all that time.

I don't think that's a universal condition.

[Richard R. Hershberger]

On May 23, 2:38 pm, John Mc. <J...@tdcogre.com> wrote:

My backpacking heyday was my late twenties and early thirties. I
discovered it when I lived in northern Arizona, which is absolutely
marvelous hiking country. (Just make sure you know where to find
water when you plan your hike.) I haven't done any serious
backpacking since I had kids. They will be hitting reasonable hiking
age soon, so perhaps we will find out how this aged body holds up to
it.

Richard R. Hershberger

[N Jill Marsh]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 18:38:24 +0000 (UTC), John Mc. <Jo...@tdcogre.com>
wrote:

I think car camping is nasty, but going backcountry is sublime.
However, I have paid my dues and raised my child right, and at this
point, I have a really cushy Thermarest and don't go out in truly foul
weather.

[N Jill Marsh]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 05:57:48 -0700 (PDT), "Richard R. Hershberger"
<rrh...@acme.com> wrote:

Just to fully swing my back-country cred....

> I haven't done any serious
>backpacking since I had kids. They will be hitting reasonable hiking
>age soon, so perhaps we will find out how this aged body holds up to
>it.

So, they can both walk, now? ;-D

(Yes, that's when the Best Beloved went backcountry. I couldn't pack
him and the gear while staying under 45 pounds, which is my personal
gear limit under most circumstances.)

[Greg Goss]

"Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:

>My backpacking heyday was my late twenties and early thirties. I
>discovered it when I lived in northern Arizona, which is absolutely
>marvelous hiking country. (Just make sure you know where to find
>water when you plan your hike.)

My brothers and I did the hike through Okanagan Canyon when I was 19
or so. The government survey map we were using showed dozens of
streams crossing the road shown. Oops. Not in an Okanagan summer.
We had a gallon jug of water that was gone within an hour (no problem
- lots of streams ahead on the map.) Four hours later, we made a half
mile backtrack down a side road to the lake. I went through a refil
of the gallon jug all by myself.

The Okanagan in the summer is hot and dry.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Pastime]

I've been in a similar situation, but presumably much less severe.
This was in the mountains of north Wales, walking from Llandudno to
Bethesda in a rather roundabout route. There were two of us.

It was a hot summer. The OS map showed plenty of streams, but all but
the largest had dried up. So each morning we'd scour the map for
larger streams within a day's walk, and then try to make it by
evening. Fortunately, we managed to do it, but there was much more
walking each day than I was prepared for, and the original plan to
continue hiking to Llanberis (Snowdon) had to be shelved and we caught
the bus there from Bethesda.

But what a wonderful expedition it was.
--
John

[Stanley Daniel de Liver]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 18:38:30 +0100, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

> Mary <mrfea...@a0l.com> wrote:
>
>>> Do you really need 10,000 lakes? Maybe you should drain some of the
>>> water.
>>
>> Oh, right - next you'll tell me you're one of those greedy people in the
>> desert Southwest who keep wanting us to send them the contents of Lake
>> Superior.
>
> I'm fascinated by the mega-mega project proposals. I'm looking for
> the one you're talking about and haven't found it yet, but the NAWAPA
> to send Alaskan water to Montana is interesting, too.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance
>

The late 60's early 1970's was still full of gung-ho projects with build a
canal here, water the desert there, remove the ice-cap, Gibraltar to
Africa bridges etc.

I recall fairly well one which proposed building a barrage between Alaska
and Siberia and pumping the cold water out, allowing the Gulf Stream to
warm Siberia and increase wheat fields enormously. No-one cared too much
about global weather patterns back then. (or the Japanese getting worse
winters)


> The one you're talking about was much simpler -- I think it just
> involved a diversion through Chicago and running a short flat river
> backwards for a ways.
>
> There was also a plan to send Lake Superior water up and over the
> Canadian Shield into James Bay for power generation, coupled with
> walling James Bay off from the rest of Hudson Bay. According to the
> article I read, brackish James Bay isn't suitable for either
> freshwater or saltwater fish, and is less productive than a simple
> fresh lake.
>
> There was a further one, that involved rebuilding most of the rivers
> of the continent, but I can't remember what to google for. The name I
> thought I remembered was the much smaller NAWAPA listed above.


--
It's a money /life balance.

[Mark Brader]

"Stanley Daniel de Liver":

> The late 60's early 1970's was still full of gung-ho projects with build a
> canal here, water the desert there, remove the ice-cap, Gibraltar to
> Africa bridges etc.
>
> I recall fairly well one which proposed building a barrage between Alaska
> and Siberia and pumping the cold water out, allowing the Gulf Stream to

> warm Siberia...

I would think that moving the Gulf Stream from the Atlantic into the
Pacific would be a bigger job than building that barrier...
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "The E-Mail of the species is more deadly
m...@vex.net | than the Mail." -- Peter Neumann

[Greg Goss]

m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>"Stanley Daniel de Liver":
>> The late 60's early 1970's was still full of gung-ho projects with build a
>> canal here, water the desert there, remove the ice-cap, Gibraltar to
>> Africa bridges etc.
>>
>> I recall fairly well one which proposed building a barrage between Alaska
>> and Siberia and pumping the cold water out, allowing the Gulf Stream to
>> warm Siberia...
>
>I would think that moving the Gulf Stream from the Atlantic into the
>Pacific would be a bigger job than building that barrier...

Atlantic into the Arctic, not the Pacific. It would be cold by the
point where you pump it over the dam into the Pacific.

[Snidely]

on 5/28/2013, Mark Brader spouted forth:

> I would think that moving the Gulf Stream from the Atlantic into the
> Pacific would be a bigger job than building that barrier...

Hey, good to see you again!

/dps

--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

[Stanley Daniel de Liver]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 22:42:57 -0000, Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:

> "Stanley Daniel de Liver":
>> The late 60's early 1970's was still full of gung-ho projects with
>> build a
>> canal here, water the desert there, remove the ice-cap, Gibraltar to
>> Africa bridges etc.
>>
>> I recall fairly well one which proposed building a barrage between
>> Alaska
>> and Siberia and pumping the cold water out, allowing the Gulf Stream to
>> warm Siberia...
>
> I would think that moving the Gulf Stream from the Atlantic into the
> Pacific would be a bigger job than building that barrier...

Silly Boy, it was supposed to (without the ice to prevent it) swirl on up
past Norway and warm the (Russian) Frozen North. Getting rid of those
pesky mammoth remains as well.
The whole of the Arctic would be transformed into a playboy's paradise
with yacht clubs springing up all round. Also more wheatfields.