Newsgroup Idea: alt.ms-windoze.smash.smash.smash

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Mats Ljungqvist

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Feb 8, 1995, 5:45:00 AM2/8/95
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pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
> I have gripes galore about it, which I will be happy to detail in
>more detail. Summary:
> The time when I installed a compiler (Borland C++), found that it
>could not find certain files, and then discovered that there had been *two
>version of MS Windoze in the system. I deleted the Windoze 3.0 directory
>and moved out or deleted all its contents, including those missing
>compiler files.

Seems to me like a problem with Borlands install program. It [the install
program] placed the missing files in the wrong directory. Nothing Windows
can do anything about that, is it?

> I wanted to capture some LEdit (DOS computer-chip CAD program)
>displays with HiJaak Pro, and I found that I had to quit Windoze entirely
>and run its DOS screen-capture part -- and to reboot Windoze just to look
>at what I produced.

Isn't that a problem with HiJaak Pro? How can it be Windows' fault if
HiJaak is a lousy program? (If it is, I havn't tested it, but it sure
seems like it from the description above).

BTW: Windows *HAS* screen capture included. See below.

> Macintosh screen-capture is built-in -- just type
>command-shift-3, and you get a snapshot file in your startup disk's
>root-level directory.

How about RTFM? Print Screen and ALT-Print Screen works fine for me.

Print Screen saves a copy of the entire screen in the clipboard, and
ALT-Print Screen saves a copy of the active window in it.

// Mats (ma...@jd.se)

---
* Mats Ljungqvist * #pragma message("Standard disclaimer in use")
* Juristdata AB, SWEDEN * Professional development for Win32
* Phone +46-500 412150 * Fax +46-500 412848

My hat is too flat

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Feb 8, 1995, 7:46:00 AM2/8/95
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In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...

While you're at it create alt.jackintoy.black-box.clic.clic.clic


Tom O'Toole - ecf_...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu - JHUVMS system programmer
Homewood Computing Facilities - Johns Hopkins University, Balto. Md. 21218
The sea was angry that day, my friends... Like an old man
trying to return soup at a deli. -- George Castanza

Loren Petrich

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Feb 8, 1995, 3:05:46 AM2/8/95
to

Given all the negativity associated with Microsoft Windows (to use
MS's name for Windoze), I've thought of the above as the perfect name
devoted to commentary to that effect. I can start out with these renamings
of that operating system:

Windoze
Winblows
Winlose

I have gripes galore about it, which I will be happy to detail in
more detail. Summary:

The time when I installed a compiler (Borland C++), found that it
could not find certain files, and then discovered that there had been *two
version of MS Windoze in the system. I deleted the Windoze 3.0 directory
and moved out or deleted all its contents, including those missing
compiler files.

I wanted to capture some LEdit (DOS computer-chip CAD program)


displays with HiJaak Pro, and I found that I had to quit Windoze entirely
and run its DOS screen-capture part -- and to reboot Windoze just to look
at what I produced.

Macintosh screen-capture is built-in -- just type

command-shift-3, and you get a snapshot file in your startup disk's
root-level directory.

The Macintosh has now caught up with CLI OSes like UNIX with
AppleScript, and where does that leave Windoze? Less scriptable than DOS?

--
Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
pet...@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh
l...@s1.gov And a fast train

Loren Petrich

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Feb 11, 1995, 12:56:25 AM2/11/95
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In article <020895134...@jd.se>, Mats Ljungqvist <ma...@jd.se> wrote:
>pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
>> I have gripes galore about it, which I will be happy to detail in
>>more detail. Summary:
>> The time when I installed a compiler (Borland C++), found that it
>>could not find certain files, and then discovered that there had been *two
>>version of MS Windoze in the system. I deleted the Windoze 3.0 directory
>>and moved out or deleted all its contents, including those missing
>>compiler files.

>Seems to me like a problem with Borlands install program. It [the install
>program] placed the missing files in the wrong directory. Nothing Windows
>can do anything about that, is it?

It turned up that there were *two Windoze versions installed: 3.0
in C:\WINDOWS and 3.1 in C:\WINDOWS\WINDOWS. The installer placed some of
the Borland files in the wrong place, and it took awhile before I worked
out what was going on and got rid of version 3.0.

>> I wanted to capture some LEdit (DOS computer-chip CAD program)
>>displays with HiJaak Pro, and I found that I had to quit Windoze entirely
>>and run its DOS screen-capture part -- and to reboot Windoze just to look
>>at what I produced.

>Isn't that a problem with HiJaak Pro? How can it be Windows' fault if
>HiJaak is a lousy program? (If it is, I havn't tested it, but it sure
>seems like it from the description above).

LEdit could be run from inside Windoze, but its colors got all
wrong. So I had to quit to DOS to run it. I had first tried to do that by
running DOS from Windoze, but I could not capture the screen with the DOS
part of HiJaak (DOSCAP). Only after entirely quitting Windoze could I
capture an LEdit display.

>BTW: Windows *HAS* screen capture included. See below.

>> Macintosh screen-capture is built-in -- just type
>>command-shift-3, and you get a snapshot file in your startup disk's
>>root-level directory.

>How about RTFM? Print Screen and ALT-Print Screen works fine for me.

[it winds up in the Windoze clipboard...]

In what version of Windoze? I tried it and it gave no feedback about
anything going on. There was also no documentation of it in the help
facility bundled with my version of Windoze, and I think I used most of
the plausible keywords for it (yes, I did RTFM :-).

Loren Petrich

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Feb 11, 1995, 12:58:18 AM2/11/95
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In article <3haga1$h...@acmez.gatech.edu>,

David Charles Leblanc <gt6...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
>
>> Given all the negativity associated with Microsoft Windows (to use
>>MS's name for Windoze), I've thought of the above as the perfect name
>>devoted to commentary to that effect. I can start out with these renamings
>>of that operating system:

>>Windoze
>>Winblows
>>Winlose

>How original and mature of you! I have a friend who has a 6-year-old
>who can help you come up with more.

Thank you. And I could certainly use the help. :-)

Here's some more about you-know-which-company:

Microsloth
Microsnot
Microsloppy
Microsquish

David Charles Leblanc

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Feb 8, 1995, 8:17:53 AM2/8/95
to
pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:

> Given all the negativity associated with Microsoft Windows (to use
>MS's name for Windoze), I've thought of the above as the perfect name
>devoted to commentary to that effect. I can start out with these renamings
>of that operating system:

>Windoze
>Winblows
>Winlose

How original and mature of you! I have a friend who has a 6-year-old


who can help you come up with more.

--
David Charles LeBlanc
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Internet: gt6...@acme.gatech.edu

Loren Petrich

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Feb 11, 1995, 1:01:59 AM2/11/95
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In article <8FEB1995...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu>,

My hat is too flat <ecf_...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> wrote:
>In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...

>While you're at it create alt.jackintoy.black-box.clic.clic.clic

OK. But I'm sure alt.ms-windoze.smash.smash.smash will be *much
more populated than alt.jackintoy.black-box.clic.clic.clic, given what
the MacOS and Windoze are like.

More seriously, I've seen even Windoze users use the term
"Windoze", and I've even seen "Winblows" and "Winlose", while I *rarely
see terms like "Macintoy" and "Macintrash". I wonder why.

Bruce Ediger

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Feb 11, 1995, 1:14:02 PM2/11/95
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pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
: Thank you. And I could certainly use the help. :-)

:
: Here's some more about you-know-which-company:
:
:Microsloth
:Microsnot
:Microsloppy
:Microsquish

"MickeySoft"

914-664-1844

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Feb 12, 1995, 5:35:26 AM2/12/95
to

: More seriously, I've seen even Windoze users use the term
: "Windoze", and I've even seen "Winblows" and "Winlose", while I *rarely
: see terms like "Macintoy" and "Macintrash". I wonder why.
: --
: Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
: pet...@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh
: l...@s1.gov And a fast train

You gotta get out more often then. Macs have there own problems, but at
least Bill isn't reigning over them making false claims, although Apple
has had some good ones too!


--
/\/******\/\ TOADEAtER-THE \/OiCE BBS
\| o..o |/ toad...@escape.com
\ \____/ / THE VOiCE BBS 914-664-1844
V V

Dan Pop

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Feb 12, 1995, 6:11:14 PM2/12/95
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In <petrichD...@netcom.com> pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:

>In article <8FEB1995...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu>,
>My hat is too flat <ecf_...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> wrote:
>>In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...
>
>>While you're at it create alt.jackintoy.black-box.clic.clic.clic
>
> OK. But I'm sure alt.ms-windoze.smash.smash.smash will be *much
>more populated than alt.jackintoy.black-box.clic.clic.clic, given what
>the MacOS and Windoze are like.
>
> More seriously, I've seen even Windoze users use the term
>"Windoze", and I've even seen "Winblows" and "Winlose", while I *rarely
>see terms like "Macintoy" and "Macintrash". I wonder why.

1. Because there are an order of magnitude less Mac users than MS/Win
users.

2. Because the average Mac user is too brainwashed to even realize the
limitations of his "OS".

MacOS is definitely better than MS/Win, but it's still one decade behind
the Mac hardware, lacking many essential features for a modern/stable/
performant computing environment.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: dan...@cernapo.cern.ch
Mail: CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

El Technicolour

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Feb 16, 1995, 7:49:43 AM2/16/95
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In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
> Microsloth

I've never understood this name. Surely it should be Macrosloth.


--
Quote: "The symbols are so illuminating that the fact that the text is
incomprehensible doesn't much matter" - A.N. Prior

Loren Petrich

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Feb 17, 1995, 9:23:54 PM2/17/95
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In article <3hvhl7$s...@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz>,

El Technicolour <m...@math.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
>> Microsloth

>I've never understood this name. Surely it should be Macrosloth.

An even better one:

Megasloth

David Glynn

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Feb 19, 1995, 4:13:07 AM2/19/95
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In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>, dfa...@venus.tamu.edu says...

>Even the people who set up the damn PC networks can't stand Windows! I have
>yet to meet anyone who liked it. I've found some _very_ warped people who
>like DOS, but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2. Who
>can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.
>
>
>Dylan Alexander

Notice he mentions no one with a real paying job. This is the same arguement that
the "pig iron" boys have been advocating against you Unix heads for years. And now
you're getting pushed from the other direction. If you don't haul ass fast you
will be run over.

"What's that light in the tunnel? Must be Solaris 6.0"

DG

ALEXANDER, DYLAN FLYNN

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Feb 18, 1995, 11:22:00 PM2/18/95
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In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...

> More seriously, I've seen even Windoze users use the term

>"Windoze", and I've even seen "Winblows" and "Winlose", while I *rarely
>see terms like "Macintoy" and "Macintrash". I wonder why.

In my CS lab, when you log onto the Novell network from one of the PC's, you
get a menu with the commands for all of the progs available. Whoever set
this up has it set up: Turbo Pascal : tc
MS Windoze : windows

Loren Petrich

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Feb 19, 1995, 10:40:47 PM2/19/95
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In article <3i7233$d...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,

David Glynn <dgl...@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>, dfa...@venus.tamu.edu says...

>>Even the people who set up the damn PC networks can't stand Windows! I have
>>yet to meet anyone who liked it. I've found some _very_ warped people who
>>like DOS, but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2. Who
>>can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.

>Notice he mentions no one with a real paying job.

What do you mean? The CS majors and grad students are "paid" with
their grades and degrees.

... This is the same arguement that

>the "pig iron" boys have been advocating against you Unix heads for
years. And now
>you're getting pushed from the other direction. If you don't haul ass fast you
>will be run over.

Huh?

Loren Petrich

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Feb 19, 1995, 6:00:23 PM2/19/95
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In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>,

ALEXANDER, DYLAN FLYNN <dfa...@venus.tamu.edu> wrote:
>In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...

>> More seriously, I've seen even Windoze users use the term
>>"Windoze", and I've even seen "Winblows" and "Winlose", while I *rarely
>>see terms like "Macintoy" and "Macintrash". I wonder why.

>In my CS lab, when you log onto the Novell network from one of the PC's, you
>get a menu with the commands for all of the progs available. Whoever set
>this up has it set up: Turbo Pascal : tc
> MS Windoze : windows

I agree that that is pretty clueless; "tc" is not only too short, but
suggests C instead of Pascal.

>Even the people who set up the damn PC networks can't stand Windows! I have
>yet to meet anyone who liked it.

There aren't a lot of Windoze PC's around where I work (some
places in the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory), it's mostly Macs
and Suns. I myself use a Sun for number crunching and a Mac for just about
everything else (writing papers, composing diagrams, graphing data, etc.)
Someone in a nearby office had use a Mac for data analysis and a PC for
data collection, using a program that runs in DOS. We have a PC, but we
mainly use it for stuff that only runs on DOS, such as a program for
setting up chip layouts. Unfortunately, I have a boss who seems to be a
PC-head, on the grounds that PC's are cheap. He even has an IBM ThinkPad
laptop that runs DOS/Windoze, and for a long time he had only 4 megabytes
of RAM, which made it do a humongous amount of swapping. Upgrading to 8
meg made it swap a *lot less. I always like to comment that he's the sort
who'd buy a Yugo because one's so *cheap.

... I've found some _very_ warped people who
>like DOS,

I confess I sometimes find it more convenient to manage files in
DOS than with the Windoze File Manager.

... but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2.

Linux is, of course, is a version of that hackers' all-time
favorite: UNIX

OS/2? I've seen such early names for it as "Oh Shit Two!" and
"Half an OS", but I've seen a lot of positive comments about more recent
versions of it. Maybe IBM has finally got its act together :-)

And the nicest thing of all is that they run on Intel 80x86
chips, providing competition for Chairman Bill.

UNIX will never be able to compete on the ease-of-use front (I've
found the online help of VMS and some IBM mainframes [VM/CMS] easier to
use than the UNIX "man: facility; they offer selection of subtopics and
even sub-subtopics, while UNIX "man" does not), unless someone writes an
easy-to-use front end for it.

How is OS/2 in that department?

... Who

>can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.

I agree :-) But the Mac still has a way to go on the OS-innards
front, like:

Preemptive multitasking
Multiple protected memory spaces

[Well, at least Apple is working on those two...]

Remote logins

[Apple Events can, at least in principle, provide something like it;
it all depends on the level of support :-)]

Loren Petrich

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Feb 20, 1995, 3:06:48 PM2/20/95
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In article <D49yo...@murdoch.acc.virginia.edu>,
Wendell Gee <jg...@darwin.clas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>pet...@netcom.com writes:

>[talking about Mac OS problems]
>> Remote logins

>> [Apple Events can, at least in principle, provide something like it;
>> it all depends on the level of support :-)]

>Try using Timbuktu. It's wonderful.

What's Timbuktu?

And I'm surprised that I did not get any flames from Windoze
defenders about the title of this post -- that insulting terms for it are
more commonly used than insulting terms for the Macintosh. Personally, I
think that Windoze is a poor copy of the MacOS and trash that makes DOS
look good in some ways (DOS doesn't eat up nearly as much processor time,
RAM, or disk space).

Frank McConnell

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Feb 21, 1995, 10:51:17 AM2/21/95
to
Loren Petrich <pet...@netcom.com> wrote:
> And I'm surprised that I did not get any flames from Windoze
>defenders about the title of this post -- that insulting terms for it are
>more commonly used than insulting terms for the Macintosh.

You expected to find W-nd-ws defenders in a.f.c?

Followups. Please keep 'em that way.

-Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits)
<f...@aphasia.us.com>

Greg Bickel

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Feb 21, 1995, 11:49:36 AM2/21/95
to
cs9...@brunel.ac.uk (Nix) wrote:

--->>Have you ever tried *maintaining* a Windows system? Upgrading it?
--->>Deinstalling software? The total lack of revision control for Windows
--->>means that once something's been installed (scattering files around
--->>WINDOWS and WINDOWS\SYSTEM and entries in your INI files) it's there for
--->>life. Damn stupid...
-

Try UnInstaller for windows. Does a wonderful job.

,,, gregb@server.@nlbbs.com ,,,
(o o) http://www.nlbbs.com/gab.htm (o o)
-----oOO--(_)--OOo-------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------------
The Northern Lights BBS Portland, Maine

The artist formerly known as Tom O'Toole

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Feb 21, 1995, 3:08:00 PM2/21/95
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In article <3i7233$d...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, dgl...@ncsa.uiuc.edu (David Glynn) writes...

>Notice he mentions no one with a real paying job. This is the same arguement that
>the "pig iron" boys have been advocating against you Unix heads for years. And now
> [ additional > 80 column material excised ]

The pig iron boys will be running unix themselves when the central suit comes
striding down the hall telling them about the new machine they are buying,
The POWER RISC system/6000 (oh it's OK now, it's from IBM). MIS YOUNICKS FOR
CARDPUNCHING COBOL CICSing DASDbased JES2 RSCS IPLers. Too bad when that robust
solution gets froot looped. ...OOPS!!!!

>"What's that light in the tunnel? Must be Solaris 6.0"

Featuring another 25 new ways to get root. Yeh, trust your mission critical to
a SPARC... (It has 'meeting level' security, where it is deemed 'managerially
safe': we wave around a bunch of colored books and letters followed by numbers,
and a bunch of 'security features'. This is known as vendor committment to
an enterprise wide solution. But ...OOPS, someone moved the mouse too fast!)
OPEN sphincters today! There is even a newsgroup dedicated to sun systems; it's
called comp.security.announce.

Jeremy William Yackel

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Feb 21, 1995, 3:16:00 PM2/21/95
to
Loren Petrich (pet...@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>,

: ALEXANDER, DYLAN FLYNN <dfa...@venus.tamu.edu> wrote:
: >In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...

: >> More seriously, I've seen even Windoze users use the term
: >>"Windoze", and I've even seen "Winblows" and "Winlose", while I *rarely
: >>see terms like "Macintoy" and "Macintrash". I wonder why.

What about Crapintosh? or winbloze.


: >In my CS lab, when you log onto the Novell network from one of the PC's, you

: >get a menu with the commands for all of the progs available. Whoever set
: >this up has it set up: Turbo Pascal : tc
: > MS Windoze : windows

: I agree that that is pretty clueless; "tc" is not only too short, but
: suggests C instead of Pascal.

What kind of an idiot set that up. TC stands for Turbo C.


: >Even the people who set up the damn PC networks can't stand Windows! I have

: >yet to meet anyone who liked it.

Nope, I don't like it either. I think its a huge virus that
slowly slows down your computer. Constantly degrading the
performance.


: ... I've found some _very_ warped people who
: >like DOS,

Games work a heck of a lot better under DOS.

: I confess I sometimes find it more convenient to manage files in

: DOS than with the Windoze File Manager.

: ... but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2.

Linux is great (if you have software for it). I kinda like X.


: Linux is, of course, is a version of that hackers' all-time
: favorite: UNIX

: OS/2? I've seen such early names for it as "Oh Shit Two!" and
: "Half an OS", but I've seen a lot of positive comments about more recent
: versions of it. Maybe IBM has finally got its act together :-)

hehehe.

: And the nicest thing of all is that they run on Intel 80x86

: chips, providing competition for Chairman Bill.

: ... Who

: >can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.

Why?
Why not a workstation.


: I agree :-) But the Mac still has a way to go on the OS-innards
: front, like:

: Preemptive multitasking
: Multiple protected memory spaces

Warp does that sort of.

: [Well, at least Apple is working on those two...]

: Remote logins

Haven't seen too many Mac ftp servers. (none actually)

: [Apple Events can, at least in principle, provide something like it;

: it all depends on the level of support :-)]


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jwya...@acs.ucalgary.ca
jwya...@FreeNet.Calgary.ab.ca
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

engelkes

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Feb 21, 1995, 12:24:52 PM2/21/95
to
considering the latest publications of MS-DOS still lurking within
MS-Windoze, I suggest the name Windoze 3.12 of 3.11a in stead of 95.

Matt Kennel

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Feb 21, 1995, 11:09:19 PM2/21/95
to
Loren Petrich (pet...@netcom.com) wrote:
: UNIX will never be able to compete on the ease-of-use front (I've

: found the online help of VMS and some IBM mainframes [VM/CMS] easier to
: use than the UNIX "man: facility; they offer selection of subtopics and
: even sub-subtopics, while UNIX "man" does not), unless someone writes an
: easy-to-use front end for it.

They have, a long time ago.

For example, Sun Answerbook and Nextstep Help and Digital Librarian.


--
-Dr. Matt Kennel m...@inls1.ucsd.edu
-Institute for Nonlinear Science, University of California, San Diego
-
- Archive for nonlinear dynamics papers & programs (***SITE CHANGED!!**)
- --> ftp://inls.ucsd.edu <--

Antony Richfield

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Feb 22, 1995, 3:55:53 AM2/22/95
to
Frank McConnell (f...@aphasia.us.com) wrote:

: Loren Petrich <pet...@netcom.com> wrote:
: > And I'm surprised that I did not get any flames from Windoze
: >defenders about the title of this post -- that insulting terms for it are
: >more commonly used than insulting terms for the Macintosh.

: You expected to find W-nd-ws defenders in a.f.c?

: Followups. Please keep 'em that way.

I - agreed about followups
II- I fail to see why NT takes up 170meg on my hard drive, and still includes
no telnet server system, no proper CLI, a fragile telnet client only,
insists on booting in a FAT partition, has an outdated GUI of doubtful
merit, makes even my DEC Alpha box go lazy, and still has the temerity
to call itself advanced.

If this is progress, give me regression!

Antony Richfield at the University of Stellenbosch, South Africa GEEK CODE 2.1:
GAT d? H s+:- g+ p?+ !au a22 w+++ v?*(+) C++ U? P-- L 3 E- N+ K+(---) W-- M-- !V
-po+ Y+ t 5- !j R++ G'' !tv b++ D+ B- e+(*)>++++ u**(*) h*(-) f--(?)@ r-- !n !y*
Homepage: http://www.active.co.za/~arichfld email: aric...@itu1.sun.ac.za

Dan Pop

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Feb 21, 1995, 12:04:27 PM2/21/95
to
In <3i7233$d...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> dgl...@ncsa.uiuc.edu (David Glynn) writes:

>In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>, dfa...@venus.tamu.edu says...
>
>>Even the people who set up the damn PC networks can't stand Windows! I have
>>yet to meet anyone who liked it. I've found some _very_ warped people who
>>like DOS, but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2. Who
>>can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.
>>

>Notice he mentions no one with a real paying job. This is the same arguement that

You somehow imply that once the students go in the real world and get a
real paying job (many have one during their college, too), they will
trash Linux and OS/2 from their disks and switch to MS stuff (read crap).

I have yet to see someone who did that. Even if they would be forced
to use MS shit at their jobs, guess what they'll run on their PC's?

Nix

unread,
Feb 21, 1995, 7:39:27 AM2/21/95
to
ALEXANDER, DYLAN FLYNN (dfa...@venus.tamu.edu) wrote:
: In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...

They seem to be Anti-Pascal, too...

Sysadmins are the people who hate Windows most, unless you've got one of
those warped bastards who likes restricting what you can do and when you
can do it to ridiculous extremes...

Have you ever tried *maintaining* a Windows system? Upgrading it?

Deinstalling software? The total lack of revision control for Windows

means that once something's been installed (scattering files around

WINDOWS and WINDOWS\SYSTEM and entries in your INI files) it's there for

life. Damn stupid...
--
---------------------------------------------------
Windows Terminal - aptly describes Windows in two words.
'Whoev'r it was, I've gotta blow up with a chaaaaainsaw' - 'Stuss'

David Charles Leblanc

unread,
Feb 22, 1995, 8:45:16 AM2/22/95
to
aric...@cs.sun.ac.za (Antony Richfield) writes:

>II- I fail to see why NT takes up 170meg on my hard drive, and still includes
> no telnet server system, no proper CLI, a fragile telnet client only,
> insists on booting in a FAT partition, has an outdated GUI of doubtful
> merit, makes even my DEC Alpha box go lazy, and still has the temerity
> to call itself advanced.

It doesn't take up 170MB. It takes much less than 1/2 that, a little
over 1/2 if you are running the RISC version (bigger .exe's). Besides,
now that I'm seeing 1GB drives at $400, whining about $40 or so worth of
hard drive is really silly. If the hard drive space is a problem, run
DOS.

For a nice CLI, get 4NT or one of the csh or ksh ports. Add the free
GNU UNIX CLI tools to 4NT and it's fairly decent. No telnet server is a
bit of a problem, but they can be had cheaply - Brian Sturgill's product
works fairly well. It does need at least a 1MB FAT partition on RISC
machines only - some oddity, but it seems a few files need to reside
there - certainly not the whole OS. As to GUIs, that's always a YMMV.

Geir Magnusson

unread,
Feb 21, 1995, 6:26:32 PM2/21/95
to
In article <3i7233$d...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, dgl...@ncsa.uiuc.edu (David
Glynn) wrote:
>
> In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>, dfa...@venus.tamu.edu says...
>
> >Even the people who set up the damn PC networks can't stand Windows! I have
> >yet to meet anyone who liked it. I've found some _very_ warped people who
> >like DOS, but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2. Who
> >can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.
> >
> >
> >Dylan Alexander
>
> Notice he mentions no one with a real paying job.

Hey, I was offered a real paying job, offered real money, from people who
do things with computers and information that _I_ was impressed with, and
they use windows(tm) for what it is good for... running a terminal program.
It seemed pretty clear that is all the use they have for windows(tm).

> This is the same arguement that
> the "pig iron" boys have been advocating against you Unix heads for years. And now
> you're getting pushed from the other direction. If you don't haul ass fast you
> will be run over.

Nope. As I understand it, they use big iron to move mega amounts of data
around, unix boxes for analytics, and custom 80x86 boxes for their major
product. But, since the machine has to be fast and responsive, there is
nothing from MS. I think their independance and willingness to do things on
their own makes them so wildly successful. (On the other hand, MS's
inability to be original or do anything but remarket products they buy also
leads to success... hmmm...)


> "What's that light in the tunnel? Must be Solaris 6.0"

And it's moving _damn_ slowly...

geir


Geir Magnusson Jr. No, Mr. Gingrich, I don't really want
Dept of Physics and Astronomy to hunt giraffes, thank you.
Johns Hopkins University
g...@crab.pha.jhu.edu It is parallel; it has yoonicks(tm).

Dan Pop

unread,
Feb 22, 1995, 1:30:35 PM2/22/95
to
In <3ieddf$3...@network.ucsd.edu> m...@inls1.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) writes:

>Loren Petrich (pet...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: UNIX will never be able to compete on the ease-of-use front (I've
>: found the online help of VMS and some IBM mainframes [VM/CMS] easier to
>: use than the UNIX "man: facility; they offer selection of subtopics and
>: even sub-subtopics, while UNIX "man" does not), unless someone writes an
>: easy-to-use front end for it.
>
>They have, a long time ago.
>
>For example, Sun Answerbook and Nextstep Help and Digital Librarian.

AIX info browser, HPUX lrom, IRIX Insight and DEC book reader complete
the picture.

And free hypertext man page browsers do exist (e.g. tkman).

But the real point is that good old "man" is a lot better than the VMS
and VM/CMS help facilities: it provides more information and in a easier
way. All you need to get started with man is "man man".

Compare, for instance, the output of "man fopen" on Unix with
"help cc run fopen" on VMS.

Dan Pop

unread,
Feb 22, 1995, 1:36:37 PM2/22/95
to
In <3ieu6p$i...@itu1.sun.ac.za> aric...@cs.sun.ac.za (Antony Richfield) writes:

>II- I fail to see why NT takes up 170meg on my hard drive, and still includes
> no telnet server system, no proper CLI, a fragile telnet client only,
> insists on booting in a FAT partition, has an outdated GUI of doubtful
> merit, makes even my DEC Alpha box go lazy, and still has the temerity
> to call itself advanced.
>
>If this is progress, give me regression!
>

This isn't progress, this MS Progress (tm) and I doubt you'll enjoy very
much MS Regression (tm) :-)

What you actually need is an MS free disk on your computer. What we
actually need is an MS free world, where the personal computing industry
isn't crippled by Bill Gates.

Nix

unread,
Feb 22, 1995, 2:20:46 PM2/22/95
to
Loren Petrich (pet...@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>,

: ALEXANDER, DYLAN FLYNN <dfa...@venus.tamu.edu> wrote:
: >In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...

[crunch]

: >In my CS lab, when you log onto the Novell network from one of the PC's, you

: >get a menu with the commands for all of the progs available. Whoever set
: >this up has it set up: Turbo Pascal : tc
: > MS Windoze : windows

: I agree that that is pretty clueless; "tc" is not only too short, but
: suggests C instead of Pascal.

A typo?

[crunch]

: I confess I sometimes find it more convenient to manage files in

: DOS than with the Windoze File Manager.

Only *sometimes*???!!!???

: ... but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2.

Or both. (I've got DOS too, and even Windoze, I'm ashamed to say; I keep
my options open.)

: Linux is, of course, is a version of that hackers' all-time
: favorite: UNIX

<wolf whistles> <cheers>

: OS/2? I've seen such early names for it as "Oh Shit Two!" and


: "Half an OS", but I've seen a lot of positive comments about more recent
: versions of it. Maybe IBM has finally got its act together :-)

I wouldn't go *that* far.

[crunch; re help, front ends]
: How is OS/2 in that department?

It comes with about 20Mb of hypertext help, and (unlike Windoze) you can
have loads of help boxes up at once, which move with the app window when
it moves. It was easy to learn; and to be quite frank, its properly OO
environment beats the ********** out of the Windoze kludge.

: ... Who

: >can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.

: I agree :-) But the Mac still has a way to go on the OS-innards
: front, like:

: Preemptive multitasking
: Multiple protected memory spaces

: [Well, at least Apple is working on those two...]

: Remote logins

: [Apple Events can, at least in principle, provide something like it;
: it all depends on the level of support :-)]

Macs are OK; but I prefer knowing my cash goes towards development, not
lawyers fees :)

Kai Grossjohann

unread,
Feb 22, 1995, 5:22:38 PM2/22/95
to Greg Bickel
>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Bickel <gr...@server.nlbbs.com> writes:

Greg> Try UnInstaller for windows. Does a wonderful job.

Is there actually a way for UnInstaller to know what to remove or is
there just a big table saying

IF (ProgramToBeRemoved == "MS Word 6.0")
THEN { DELETE foo.txt ; DELETE bar.exe }

and so on?

I wonder.
\kai{}
--
Life is hard and then you die.

Loren Petrich

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 2:35:09 AM2/23/95
to
In article <D4EzF...@news.cern.ch>, Dan Pop <dan...@cernapo.cern.ch> wrote:
>In <3ieddf$3...@network.ucsd.edu> m...@inls1.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) writes:

>>Loren Petrich (pet...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>: UNIX will never be able to compete on the ease-of-use front (I've
>>: found the online help of VMS and some IBM mainframes [VM/CMS] easier to
>>: use than the UNIX "man: facility; they offer selection of subtopics and
>>: even sub-subtopics, while UNIX "man" does not), unless someone writes an
>>: easy-to-use front end for it.

>>They have, a long time ago.
>>For example, Sun Answerbook and Nextstep Help and Digital Librarian.
>AIX info browser, HPUX lrom, IRIX Insight and DEC book reader complete
>the picture.
>And free hypertext man page browsers do exist (e.g. tkman).

I've yet to see *any of these on *any of the UNIX systems I've
used, and I've used *several.

>But the real point is that good old "man" is a lot better than the VMS
>and VM/CMS help facilities: it provides more information and in a easier
>way. All you need to get started with man is "man man".
>Compare, for instance, the output of "man fopen" on Unix with
>"help cc run fopen" on VMS.

I disagree. The nice thing about VMS help is that it is
hierarchical; one gets a paragraph or two of information, and one gets
pointers to where one can find out more. Even VM/CMS help is like that,
though it is less interactive than VMS help. UNIX man is total trash --
print out all the documentation at once, and force one to wade through it
to find out what one wants to know.

And though I think that DOS and Windoze leave a lot to be desired,
I will at least give Microsoft credit for including some good help systems
with their more recent versions. It's hard to beat a good hypertext help
system, and I'd prefer even the help system they now have for DOS to UNIX
man.

The Macintosh? It has a reputation for one not needing a manual to
run a Mac app. But many of the more recent Mac apps, and the MacOS as
well, now have good help systems. There is even a "?" at the upper right
corner of the screen where all the help menus live.

Loren Petrich

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 2:39:53 AM2/23/95
to
In article <3ig2qe$9...@dawes.brunel.ac.uk>, Nix <cs9...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
>Loren Petrich (pet...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>,
>: ALEXANDER, DYLAN FLYNN <dfa...@venus.tamu.edu> wrote:
>: >In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>, pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes...

>: I confess I sometimes find it more convenient to manage files in

>: DOS than with the Windoze File Manager.
>Only *sometimes*???!!!???

A misstatement on my part, I'm afraid. I avoid the File Manager
as much as possible; I prefer the Norton Desktop, PCShell (a DOS utility
that operates in character-GUI fashion and displays lists of files and
directories), and even the straight DOS CLI.

>: Linux is, of course, is a version of that hackers' all-time
>: favorite: UNIX
><wolf whistles> <cheers>

I'm afraid I've never really liked UNIX. Sorry :-)

>: OS/2? I've seen such early names for it as "Oh Shit Two!" and
>: "Half an OS", but I've seen a lot of positive comments about more recent
>: versions of it. Maybe IBM has finally got its act together :-)
>I wouldn't go *that* far.
>[crunch; re help, front ends]
>: How is OS/2 in that department?
>It comes with about 20Mb of hypertext help, and (unlike Windoze) you can
>have loads of help boxes up at once, which move with the app window when
>it moves. It was easy to learn; and to be quite frank, its properly OO
>environment beats the ********** out of the Windoze kludge.

It seems like I ought to look at OS/2 some time, at least to see
if it is worthwhile competition for Windoze or the MacOS :-)

Dan Pop

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 11:41:21 AM2/23/95
to
In <3iff5c$i...@acmey.gatech.edu> gt6...@prism.gatech.edu (David Charles Leblanc) writes:

>aric...@cs.sun.ac.za (Antony Richfield) writes:
>
>>II- I fail to see why NT takes up 170meg on my hard drive, and still includes
>> no telnet server system, no proper CLI, a fragile telnet client only,
>> insists on booting in a FAT partition, has an outdated GUI of doubtful
>> merit, makes even my DEC Alpha box go lazy, and still has the temerity
>> to call itself advanced.
>
>It doesn't take up 170MB. It takes much less than 1/2 that, a little
>over 1/2 if you are running the RISC version (bigger .exe's). Besides,
>now that I'm seeing 1GB drives at $400, whining about $40 or so worth of
>hard drive is really silly. If the hard drive space is a problem, run
>DOS.

Or Linux :-)


>
>For a nice CLI, get 4NT or one of the csh or ksh ports. Add the free

^^^ ^^^
What!? Those horrible Unix shells? What's wrong with the NT shell? :-)

>GNU UNIX CLI tools to 4NT and it's fairly decent. No telnet server is a

What!? More Unix stuff? Why not running Unix in the first place: it's
cheaper, faster and less disk consuming.

>bit of a problem, but they can be had cheaply - Brian Sturgill's product
>works fairly well.

As if the OS weren't expensive enough, you have to pay extra for basic
networking functionality (TELNET is one of the oldest ARPANET protocols
still in use)

> It does need at least a 1MB FAT partition on RISC
>machines only - some oddity, but it seems a few files need to reside

It looks like some brain damage.

>there - certainly not the whole OS. As to GUIs, that's always a YMMV.

Why do some file _need_ to reside there? My Linux box certainly doesn't
need _any_ file to reside in a FAT partition. I can even set a DOSEMU
pseudo-drive in any Linux file system. But Linux' design, isn't brain
damaged, of course :-)

Dan Pop

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 12:05:37 PM2/23/95
to
In <petrichD...@netcom.com> pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:

>In article <D4EzF...@news.cern.ch>, Dan Pop <dan...@cernapo.cern.ch> wrote:
>>In <3ieddf$3...@network.ucsd.edu> m...@inls1.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) writes:
>
>>>Loren Petrich (pet...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>>: UNIX will never be able to compete on the ease-of-use front (I've
>>>: found the online help of VMS and some IBM mainframes [VM/CMS] easier to
>>>: use than the UNIX "man: facility; they offer selection of subtopics and
>>>: even sub-subtopics, while UNIX "man" does not), unless someone writes an
>>>: easy-to-use front end for it.
>
>>>They have, a long time ago.
>>>For example, Sun Answerbook and Nextstep Help and Digital Librarian.
>>AIX info browser, HPUX lrom, IRIX Insight and DEC book reader complete
>>the picture.
>>And free hypertext man page browsers do exist (e.g. tkman).
>
> I've yet to see *any of these on *any of the UNIX systems I've
>used, and I've used *several.

I see your logic: if I can't see it, it doesn't exist. How about asking
your sysadmin?


>
>>But the real point is that good old "man" is a lot better than the VMS
>>and VM/CMS help facilities: it provides more information and in a easier
>>way. All you need to get started with man is "man man".
>>Compare, for instance, the output of "man fopen" on Unix with
>>"help cc run fopen" on VMS.
>
> I disagree. The nice thing about VMS help is that it is
>hierarchical; one gets a paragraph or two of information, and one gets
>pointers to where one can find out more. Even VM/CMS help is like that,
>though it is less interactive than VMS help. UNIX man is total trash --
>print out all the documentation at once, and force one to wade through it
>to find out what one wants to know.

On the contrary: it gives the user the required information and lets him
browse it with his preferred pager. Its much easier and faster to get
at the info you actually need than with VMS HELP, where you have to read
a lot of stuff until you find what you're actually looking for.

What is the VMS equivalent of "apropos" (aka "man -k")?


>
> And though I think that DOS and Windoze leave a lot to be desired,
>I will at least give Microsoft credit for including some good help systems
>with their more recent versions. It's hard to beat a good hypertext help
>system, and I'd prefer even the help system they now have for DOS to UNIX
>man.

You're entitled to your preferences. This doesn't mean that what _you_
don't like is "total trash". Only idiots use to think this way.

> The Macintosh? It has a reputation for one not needing a manual to
>run a Mac app. But many of the more recent Mac apps, and the MacOS as
>well, now have good help systems. There is even a "?" at the upper right
>corner of the screen where all the help menus live.

I can do all the system programming I need using only the man pages that
came by default, with the OS. Can a Mac programmer do the same thing?
Sorry, I forgot that the Mac isn't programmer friendly. And the lack
of preemptive multitasking (aka true multitasking) and memory protection
makes it far less user friendly than the average Mac apologist wants to
admit.

Matt Simmons

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 12:41:12 PM2/23/95
to
Greg Bickel (gr...@server.nlbbs.com) wrote:
: Try UnInstaller for windows. Does a wonderful job.
I did. I mistakenly purchased it thinking that it could Uninstall
applications (hence the name). I learned that it only cleans up the pieces
after you go in and try to remove an app. This product would be much more
valuable if it would simply record everything the installer does when it
installs an app, so it could reverse those changes when needed.

R!ch

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 4:20:12 AM2/23/95
to
On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Loren Petrich wrote:

> >But the real point is that good old "man" is a lot better than the VMS
> >and VM/CMS help facilities: it provides more information and in a easier
> >way. All you need to get started with man is "man man".
> >Compare, for instance, the output of "man fopen" on Unix with
> >"help cc run fopen" on VMS.
>
> I disagree. The nice thing about VMS help is that it is
> hierarchical; one gets a paragraph or two of information, and one gets
> pointers to where one can find out more. Even VM/CMS help is like that,
> though it is less interactive than VMS help. UNIX man is total trash --
> print out all the documentation at once, and force one to wade through it
> to find out what one wants to know.

Uh, you don't *have* to wade through all the info on a man page; you can
search for a string by hitting the '/' key. Hell, if you insist, you can
hit 'v', and go in to vi, to peruse the file at your leisure.

---
R!ch

If it ain't analogue, it ain't music.
#include <disclaimer.h> \\|// - ?
(o o)
/==============================oOOo=(_)=oOOo=====\
| Richard Teer ri...@isltd.insignia.com |
| Insignia Solutions |
| Voice: 01494 453409 |
| Fax: 01494 459720 |
\================================================/

David Spencer

unread,
Feb 24, 1995, 9:03:03 AM2/24/95
to
dan...@cernapo.cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:

>I can do all the system programming I need using only the man pages that
>came by default, with the OS. Can a Mac programmer do the same thing?
>Sorry, I forgot that the Mac isn't programmer friendly. And the lack
>of preemptive multitasking (aka true multitasking) and memory protection
>makes it far less user friendly than the average Mac apologist wants to
>admit.

Thus spake a Mac and unix bigot:

With the right tools, the Mac is a nice development environment (not
as nice as unix, but nice). One can get or simulate most of the best
unix programming tools.

One must buy the better tools, but given the trend to unbundling
(which I wholeheartedly support), one has to pay for tools in
commercial unices, too. Even without unbundling, the all-in cost of a
nice Mac development kit is about the same as a nice unix with a nice
development kit. [Please don't bring up Gnu and linux. They are very
nice, but one pays for them in different ways if one's time isn't
free.]

But the main problem with programming the Mac is indeed that its
"cooperative multitasking" and unprotected memory are _horrible_
design flaws. [The filesystem calls are incomprehensible, too.] When
the Mac was concieved, unix had had a working task scheduler, memory
protection and filesystem for more than a decade. The code was
available, or duplicable from public-domain descriptions of the
internals. If you're going to do it, why not do it right?

It won't do to say that the hardware was inadequate. The m68k's had
the support for it. By the time "cooperative multitasking" came along
there was enough room on ROM to do it right. Performance is a red
herring: Forcing each program to do task scheduling is certainly a
bigger hog than having it done right, in one place, and providing it
as a service to the program.

Leaving aside this essential brokenness, it's interesting to look at
what each OS makes easy and hard to program. On the Mac, one wastes
time programming services that unix provides in the system, with
simple call structures: scheduling, memory allocation, files. To do a
GUI on unix -- assuming you can figure out X at all -- one wastes time
programming services that the Mac provides in the interface.

The last seriously broken element of the Mac is that the system call
interface and documentation are (I kid you not) in Pascal. I never
had the misfortune of dealing with Pascal; I taught myself programming
from K&R. _Inside Mac_ could as well have been written in Greek.

And the worst of it is that a/ux, which fixes so much of this
brokenness, and combines the best features of the Mac and unix, has
essentially been discontinued.

*Sigh*


--
dhs spe...@panix.com

The artist formerly known as Tom O'Toole

unread,
Feb 24, 1995, 10:10:00 AM2/24/95
to
In article <D4EzF...@news.cern.ch>, dan...@cernapo.cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes...

>But the real point is that good old "man" is a lot better than the VMS
>and VM/CMS help facilities: it provides more information and in a easier
>way. All you need to get started with man is "man man".
>
>Compare, for instance, the output of "man fopen" on Unix with
>"help cc run fopen" on VMS.

oh, right. Tell me what you get with man backup or man convert. VMS is at least
giving you something on what is (and I gainsay in advance all arguments to the
contrary) a goddam UNIX call!!!!!

$man alias
No manual entry found for alias

I'm stoked!

Dave Brown

unread,
Feb 24, 1995, 3:47:33 PM2/24/95
to
In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>,
Loren Petrich <pet...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.950223...@blackdeath.isltd.insignia.com>,

>R!ch <ri...@blackdeath.isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
>>Uh, you don't *have* to wade through all the info on a man page; you can
>>search for a string by hitting the '/' key. Hell, if you insist, you can
>>hit 'v', and go in to vi, to peruse the file at your leisure.
>
> And it just so happens that I HATE vi. The most confusing
>screen-mode editor I've *ever used. I prefer emacs, some VMS editors, and
>even some CMS editors (on Intimidating Big Machines :-). If "man" gave me
>some way to start up emacs, then it might be OK.

It's not that arcane.
EDITOR=emacs
VISUAL=emacs
export EDITOR VISUAL

Use the Creeping Evil Of setenv if you're using the Creeping Evil Of
The C Shell.

--Dave "Next question?" Brown
--
http://armf18.dow.on.doe.ca:6700/~dbrown/ Dave Brown, sysadmin for
Environment Canada. I charge for any unsolicited advertising that
appears in any system I administer, at the rate of $200/hr for my
time in dealing with the ad (min. 1/2 hr) and $100/kB for storage.

Dan Pop

unread,
Feb 24, 1995, 7:35:06 PM2/24/95
to
In <petrichD...@netcom.com> pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:

>>On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Loren Petrich wrote:
>

>... UNIX man is total trash --


>>> print out all the documentation at once, and force one to wade through it
>>> to find out what one wants to know.
>
>>Uh, you don't *have* to wade through all the info on a man page; you can
>>search for a string by hitting the '/' key. Hell, if you insist, you can
>>hit 'v', and go in to vi, to peruse the file at your leisure.
>

> And it just so happens that I HATE vi. The most confusing

Then don't use it. Set the PAGER variable to your favourite pager and
use it.

>screen-mode editor I've *ever used. I prefer emacs, some VMS editors, and
>even some CMS editors (on Intimidating Big Machines :-). If "man" gave me
>some way to start up emacs, then it might be OK.

Ask Mr Stallman to implement a pager mode in emacs and "setenv PAGER emacs"
or "export PAGER=emacs" :-)
>
> ObWindoze: I'd like to give Microsoft for having a great hypertext
>help facility -- one can wander around it to one's heart's content.

And waste a huge amount of time until you find the piece of info you were
actually looking for.

Dan Pop

unread,
Feb 24, 1995, 8:03:41 PM2/24/95
to
In <petrichD...@netcom.com> pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:

> Actually, all the _Inside_Macintosh_ documentation is now on
>CD-ROM. So you can just read whatever docs you want with DocViewer.

And, of course, the CD-ROM and the CD-ROM drive are included in the
price of every Mac.
>
> And I really think that comparing Mac system programming to UNIX
>system programming is a bit like comparing apples to oranges :-), unless
>one is writing UNIX/X GUI apps. How does X-windows fare in this department?

Pretty well. You don't risk to crash the system while doing X development.
And if your system is too slow, you can develop the code on a faster one
and see the results on your screen. Quite handy.

But, most important, the non-GUI part of the X application is still written
using the Unix API, which is much more elegant and powerful than the Mac API.
And you don't have to spend any time thinking about cooperative
"multitasking".
>
> Also, the lack of preemptive multitasking and multiple protected
>memory spaces is not a big disaster if one is running well-behaved apps.

This is a big if, especially if you're developing applications and you're
trying to get them well behaved, because in their alpha stage they keep
crashing your Mac.

>I agree that both are nice to have, however, and Apple is moving in that
>direction. ObWindoze: how the Mac works in that regard is like how Win16
>apps are run; though the Mac is 32-bit, it won't catch up to Win32-app
>execution in Windoze NT and Windoze 4.0/9x in a while.

Why? After all, MacOS is older than any flavour of Windows. Is its
internal design that brain dead that Apple couldn't fix in ten years and
it's still in the "but wait until version X" stage?

Matt McLeod

unread,
Feb 24, 1995, 10:13:24 PM2/24/95
to
In article <18FEB199...@venus.tamu.edu>,

dfa...@venus.tamu.edu (ALEXANDER, DYLAN FLYNN) wrote:

> In my CS lab, when you log onto the Novell network from one of the PC's, you
> get a menu with the commands for all of the progs available. Whoever set
> this up has it set up: Turbo Pascal : tc
> MS Windoze : windows
>

> Even the people who set up the damn PC networks can't stand Windows! I have
> yet to meet anyone who liked it. I've found some _very_ warped people who

> like DOS, but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2. Who

> can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.

The guys who set it up might hate it, but I can tell you who
hates it even more - anyone trying to support a large NetWare
network with Windoze. Actually, anyone supporting a large
number of Windoze machines hates it, networked or not.


--
Matt McLeod "Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston
Freelance General-Purpose Geek lausajne estas rano en mia bideo."
ma...@scorch.hna.com.au - AJ Rimmer

Loren Petrich

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Feb 24, 1995, 11:46:45 PM2/24/95
to
In article <D4J5M...@news.cern.ch>, Dan Pop <dan...@cernapo.cern.ch> wrote:
>In <petrichD...@netcom.com> pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
>> And it just so happens that I HATE vi. The most confusing

>Then don't use it. Set the PAGER variable to your favourite pager and
>use it.

Sure. But how would I find out about it other than spending an
inordinate time reading man files?

>> ObWindoze: I'd like to give Microsoft for having a great hypertext
>>help facility -- one can wander around it to one's heart's content.

>And waste a huge amount of time until you find the piece of info you were
>actually looking for.

I personally find it *much more pleasant than doing a lot of man -k's
with this or that keyword, hoping to find one that matches what I want to
do, and *then wading through several pages of man file -- tolerable for
very short commands, like the pbmplus ones, but try doing that for xv or
csh :-(.

Loren Petrich

unread,
Feb 24, 1995, 11:54:03 PM2/24/95
to
In article <3ilri1$t...@amy25.stanford.edu>,
>:On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Loren Petrich wrote:

>:> >But the real point is that good old "man" is a lot better than the VMS
>:> >and VM/CMS help facilities: it provides more information and in a easier

>:> >way. ...

>:> I disagree. The nice thing about VMS help is that it is
>:> hierarchical;

>:Uh, you don't *have* to wade through all the info on a man page; you can


>:search for a string by hitting the '/' key. Hell, if you insist, you can
>:hit 'v', and go in to vi, to peruse the file at your leisure.

>Of course, this / things is NOT documented in the man man pages, the help
>screen in man, or the man pages for more, less, vi, etc., etc., for that
>matter....(It says to use /string to search for string. Nowhere does it say
>that you can use / by itself to repeat a search.) The man pages are good
>for jogging memories, but are horrible for actually learning something from
>scratch. (Of course, there are exceptions, but I'm speaking in general
>terms.)

That's been my experience also. They are tolerable for such
things as the pbmplus package, which consists of a lot of programs, each
of which does one tiny little thing (scale a picture, rotate it, convert
it into another format, etc.). The man files there aren't terribly long,
but just consider xv or csh -- is it any fun wading through the long man
files for *those programs?

I wonder why UNIX seems to be so behind the curve in help
facilities? Of the other CLI systems I've used, VMS and even VM/CMS have
had easier-to-use systems. And why isn't there a good X-windows version
that is (1) comprehensive and (2) easy-to-use like MS's hypertext help?

Dan Pop

unread,
Feb 24, 1995, 11:56:39 PM2/24/95
to
In <3ilri1$t...@amy25.Stanford.EDU> shi...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Shimpei Yamashita) writes:

>Of course, this / things is NOT documented in the man man pages, the help
>screen in man, or the man pages for more, less, vi, etc., etc., for that
>matter....(It says to use /string to search for string. Nowhere does it say
>that you can use / by itself to repeat a search.) The man pages are good

Which proves that you didn't bother to even read the "more" man page.
Of course, this doesn't prevent you from displaying your ignorance to
the rest of the world. From the "more" man page:

/expression
Searches for the ith occurrence of the regular expression expres-
sion. If there are less than i occurrences of expression, and the
input is a file rather than a pipe, then the position in the file
remains unchanged. Otherwise, a screenful is displayed, starting
with the line matching expression. You can use Erase and Kill char-
acters to edit the regular expression, which must be terminated by
pressing <Return> (with no trailing / character). Erasing back past
the first column cancels the search command. If expression is null,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
more uses the last regular expression entered.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

?expression
Same as /, but searches backward in the file.

n Searches for the ith occurrence of the last regular expression
entered.

N Searches for the ith occurrence of the last regular expression
entered, but reverses the direction of that search.

Anyway, to repeat the last search, 'n' is the easiest way, since it
requires only one key press. And you can find similar information in
the "less" and "vi" man pages. But you have to read them, of course :-)

>for jogging memories, but are horrible for actually learning something from
>scratch. (Of course, there are exceptions, but I'm speaking in general
>terms.)

You're speaking in bullshit terms. The man pages are the Unix Reference
Manual. A reference manual is not intended for learning anything from
scratch, this is the purpose of a guide or tutorial document.

DoN. Nichols

unread,
Feb 25, 1995, 12:05:35 AM2/25/95
to
In article <petrichD...@netcom.com>,
Loren Petrich <pet...@netcom.com> wrote:

[ ... ]

> So it's something like a brain-damaged version of Microsoft's
>hypertext help facility? I actually find that very nice, because I can
>wander through it by clicking on the names of topics that appear in the
>text, and I can also search for a topic if I want to.
>
> If someone could write a version of that for UNIX/X, and supplied
>a lot of good hypertext-ified UNIX info, I'd be willing to use it.

Have you tried Sun's AnswerBook? It is essentially what you
describe. (Of course, it is an extra-cost option.) :-(

>>Granted, I still think VMS help was nicer than UNIX man though.

Well ... I've never used VMS, so I can't speak to that, but I have
used unix for quite a while -- learning most of it from reading man pages.
While it isn't at the hypertext level, at least the concept is there with
the "See Also" section. And "man -k" (as has been mentioned before in this
thread) is a help in finding relevant man pages. (Of course, some topics
will give too many suggested starting points, especially since X11 came in,
but judicious use of the section numbers can help narrow the selection. --
But, you do need to know the meaning of the section numbers.)

> I'm glad that someone around here agrees with me and doesn't have
>this "UNIX right or wrong" attitude some seem to have.

I would simply say that it has been a major improvement over any
other OS which I have used enough to have an opinion on. I did like OS-9
greatly, however, and there are some ideas there which would be nice to add
to unix.

--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | ...!uunet!ceilidh!dnichols
Donald Nichols (DoN.) | Voice (Days): (703) 704-2280 (Eves): (703) 938-4564
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Loren Petrich

unread,
Feb 25, 1995, 12:07:15 AM2/25/95
to
In article <D4J6B...@news.cern.ch>, Dan Pop <dan...@cernapo.cern.ch> wrote:
>In <petrichD...@netcom.com> pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
>>In article <D4Gq5...@news.cern.ch>, Dan Pop <dan...@cernapo.cern.ch> wrote:
>>>In <petrichD...@netcom.com> pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:

>"less" is bidirectional. Learning about your tools is better and more
>productive than griping.

Sure. But if I didn't know in advance that there *was such as
thing as less, how would I learn about it???

>>... Its much easier and faster to get


>>>at the info you actually need than with VMS HELP, where you have to read
>>>a lot of stuff until you find what you're actually looking for.

>> Actually, I like VMS help better because it's easier to find
>>something unfamiliar with it, and I like systems that allow one to learn
>>on one's own.

>I wasn't aware of the fact that man is so limited that you can't learn
>on your own, so I learned Unix on my own, using man and apropos.

I've learned a lot of what I know about UNIX by that process, and
it isn't very easy. I've had a *lot easier time with other help
facilities, including the VM/CMS one that runs on IBM dinosaurs.

... The
>user friendly VMS HELP, after an extremely short and incomplete description
>sends you to one of the VMS reference manuals, which exist only in hard
>copy form, and most of the time aren't available, because someone else
>needs them, too (see, you were not the only one using HELP on that VMS
>box :-)

Actually, I was usually the only one using the VMS paper manuals
at where I was at :-)

>man pages are _reference_ documents, not pointers to reference documents.

My experience, however, was somewhat different -- I could find
much of what I wanted to know from VMS online help (and even IBM-dinosaur
online help). And of course, they don't stand a candle to good GUI
hypertext help like what MS offers.

[Macintosh programming...]

>And if you make a mistake in your code, you crash your Mac, a la MSDOS.
>What's the use of a CLI type program on a Mac? Do you have a shell,
>pipes, everything else that actually makes the CLI paradigm so powerful?

I would if I had the Macintosh Programmers' Workshop, but MPW is
rather expensive and a big memory hog.

>> It's just taking full advantage of the Mac's GUI that's
>>difficult. One has to set up an event loop, and write routines that take
>>care of the various events received (opening a file, quitting,
>>redisplaying a window, ...). And, if anything, Windoze is *worse.

>Of course it's worse. It's only a very bad copy of MacOS. But why should
>a programmer use Windows, unless he's a Solitaire addict?

That seems to be the general consensus regarding Windoze -- that
it is just plain trash that is mainly good for playing Solitaire on. The
icons and icon groups of the Program Manager give me a *severe case of
crossed wires of the brain -- they are not for files, which must be
handled in the File Manager. And that's *so horrible that I prefer Norton
Desktop, PCShell (a DOS program), or even the straight DOS CLI.

Loren Petrich

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Feb 25, 1995, 12:19:54 AM2/25/95
to
In article <3ikoun$e...@panix3.panix.com>,
David Spencer <spe...@panix.com> wrote:
>dan...@cernapo.cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:

>But the main problem with programming the Mac is indeed that its
>"cooperative multitasking" and unprotected memory are _horrible_

>design flaws. ...

Let us not forget that the Macintosh was designed in the early
1980's, when it would have been a *lot more difficult to design a
preemptively-multitasking system with multiple protected memory spaces
that ran a bitmap-display GUI -- and cost only $2500.

As it was, the original 128K Mac was single-tasking -- and slow.

What I find really remarkable is how many of the limitations of
the original Mac have been overcome without breaking just about every old
app. So that's why I have confidence that Apple will come out with
preemptive multitasking and multiple memory spaces someday.

... Forcing each program to do task scheduling is certainly a


>bigger hog than having it done right, in one place, and providing it
>as a service to the program.

Not really. With the Macintosh, it's handled with periodic
WaitNextEvent() calls; when an app decides to wait for its next event,
the kernel decides what other process to give time to.

>The last seriously broken element of the Mac is that the system call

>interface and documentation are (I kid you not) in Pascal. ...

That *can't be too difficult to translate into C, can it?

DoN. Nichols

unread,
Feb 25, 1995, 12:21:49 AM2/25/95
to
In article <24FEB199...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu>,
The artist formerly known as Tom O'Toole <ecf_...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> wrote:

[ ... ]

>oh, right. Tell me what you get with man backup or man convert.

man -k backup shows me vmsbackup(1) (which is a tool for reading VMS
savesets from tape.

man -k convert gives me 64 references, including one to a program
convert(1), which is an image file conversion program. I have no idea
whether that one came with the OS, or was part of one of the many packages
added to the system from net.sources over the years.

How do you go about adding information about new programs which you
have written, or which came from some other source, to this help facility?
Is it as easy as it is on unix, where the makefile copies the man pages into
place when you "make install" (usually). To have them visible in the
database used by man -k, you use either catman(8) or makewhatis(8) in the
appropriate man directory.

> VMS is at least
>giving you something on what is (and I gainsay in advance all arguments to the
>contrary) a goddam UNIX call!!!!!
>
>$man alias
>No manual entry found for alias

======================================================================
$ man -k alias
mkfontdir, fonts.dir, fonts.scale, fonts.alias (1) - create an index of X
font files in a directory
checkalias (1L) - check to see if an alias is defined.
elmalias (1L) - expand and display Elm address aliases
listalias (1L) - list user and system aliases
newalias (1L) - install new elm aliases for user and/or system
aliases, addresses, forward (5) - addresses and aliases for sendmail
csh, %, @, alias, bg, break, breaksw, case, continue, default, dirs, else,
end, endif, endsw, eval, exec, exit, fg, foreach, glob, goto, hashstat,
history, if, jobs, label, limit, logout, notify, onintr, popd, pushd,
rehash, repeat, set, setenv, shift, source, stop, suspend, switch, then,
umask, unalias, unhash, unlimit, unset, unsetenv, while (1) - C shell
built-in commands, see csh(1)
newaliases (8) - rebuild the data base for the mail aliases file
services (5) - Internet services and aliases
which (1) - locate a command; display its pathname or alias
======================================================================
Granted this is not all places where alias is covered, but it is all
that had the word 'alias' in the synopsis line. Of these, the long one
which points you to "see csh(1)" tells you that it is one of the built-ins
for at least one shell, so you should consider looking at the man page for
your preferred shell, as well.

Sangria

unread,
Feb 25, 1995, 12:43:30 AM2/25/95
to
In article <3ieu6p$i...@itu1.sun.ac.za>, aric...@cs.sun.ac.za says...

>II- I fail to see why NT takes up 170meg on my hard drive,

^^^^^^
Exactly how did you install NT such that it takes this much room?
I've installed every bells and whistles I can find and it only takes
up 95Ms or so.

> and still includes
> no telnet server system,

Check out the ResKit. It's got a telnet server. Also there are many
shareware/freeware telent servers floating around--just gotta go find
them.

> no proper CLI,

Have a C-shell freeware that I downloaded--this good enough?

> a fragile telnet client only,

Fragile? Feature poor, yes. But fragile? Whatcha doin?

> insists on booting in a FAT partition,

Say what? I don't even have a FAT partition on my machine. Ok I lie,
I have exactly 100Ms of FAT partition way on the bottom of the drive
list (drive K). I keep this around since right now, there is no NTFS
defragger and I use this partition as the dumping ground--so it gets
fragged like crazy, but I can always boot to DOS and defrag it.

> has an outdated GUI of doubtful
> merit,

Ok, I'll give you this one.

>makes even my DEC Alpha box go lazy, and still has the temerity
> to call itself advanced.

You sure we're talking about the same NT?
You know the one with file, kernel protection, pre-emtion up the wazoo,
stable as a rock, networks like crazy, etc...


-- Sang.
*****************************************************************************
* Sang K. Choe san...@inlink.com *
* http://www.inlink.com/users/sangria/homepage.html *
*****************************************************************************

Sangria

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Feb 25, 1995, 12:53:34 AM2/25/95
to
In article <D4Gp0...@news.cern.ch>, dan...@cernapo.cern.ch says...

>
>>For a nice CLI, get 4NT or one of the csh or ksh ports. Add the free
> ^^^ ^^^
>What!? Those horrible Unix shells? What's wrong with the NT shell? :-)

Nothing, but there are those who grew up with UNIX and kinda feel warm and
fuzzy everytime we clobber our data files using a brain-damage UNIX
utility--you know things like tar, rm, etc... :p

>>GNU UNIX CLI tools to 4NT and it's fairly decent. No telnet server is a
>
>What!? More Unix stuff? Why not running Unix in the first place: it's
>cheaper, faster and less disk consuming.

Because I would like to occasionally get some work done... :)

>But Linux' design, isn't brain
>damaged, of course :-)

You mean there actually a UNIX variant that isn't brain damaged?
Yeah right...

Tell me how many UNIX users have done this:

tar -cf some_really_important_file.that_cannot_be_replaced

instead of

tar -xf some_really_important_file.that_cannot_be_replaced

And this isn't brain-damaged? (Remember on the keyboard, x is
right next to c)

David Glynn

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Feb 25, 1995, 2:18:51 AM2/25/95
to
In article <D4EzF...@news.cern.ch>, dan...@cernapo.cern.ch says...

>Compare, for instance, the output of "man fopen" on Unix with
>"help cc run fopen" on VMS.

How "intuitive", as the Mac crowd puts it.

DG

David Glynn

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Feb 25, 1995, 2:24:20 AM2/25/95
to
In article <D4Iv3...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>,
dagb...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca says...

>It's not that arcane.
>EDITOR=emacs
>VISUAL=emacs
>export EDITOR VISUAL
>
>Use the Creeping Evil Of setenv if you're using the Creeping Evil Of
>The C Shell.
>
>--Dave "Next question?" Brown

Again, as the Mac crowd puts it, "how intuitive".

DG

David Glynn

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Feb 25, 1995, 2:35:11 AM2/25/95
to
In article <D4JHq...@news.cern.ch>, dan...@cernapo.cern.ch says...
>
>In <3ilri1$t...@amy25.Stanford.EDU> shi...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Shimpei Yamashit

Jeez Dan, you sound like me last week. Take a pill.

Of course, the point some of us have been trying to make is that we have been sent
to the man pages to set us straight in our attempts to "do" Unix. Yet you say it
is a reference manual and not to be used for learning. Which part of Unix were we
supposed to use to learn Unix? And if we did not find it before we gave up is it
our fault for not understanding that this was significant knowledge?

Please Dan, point us to where we can recieve the essential knowledge that will
allow us to relate to the acolytes of the Church of Unix.

And if you say a 4 year institution....

DG

Loren Petrich

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Feb 25, 1995, 3:49:25 AM2/25/95
to
In article <D4JHq...@news.cern.ch>, Dan Pop <dan...@cernapo.cern.ch> wrote:
>In <3ilri1$t...@amy25.Stanford.EDU> shi...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Shimpei Yamashita) writes:

> /expression
> Searches for the ith occurrence of the regular expression expres-

> sion. ...
...................................................... If expression is null,


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> more uses the last regular expression entered.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's not what I call a clear way of stating it. I'd prefer
something like:

To repeat the search, type simply '/'

I am insulted at being told to RTFM, when the FM isn't even very
R'able.

>You're speaking in bullshit terms. The man pages are the Unix Reference
>Manual. A reference manual is not intended for learning anything from
>scratch, this is the purpose of a guide or tutorial document.

But if the online help is only for reference purposes, how is one
supposed to *learn UNIX??? I think that documentation is something that
one ought to be able to learn from, since everybody has to learn how to
use the software they use sometime.

Just for comparison, I started Microsoft Excel on my Macintosh,
and used its help facility to look around a bit. VERY easy. And VERY good
even by Macintosh standards. I also used Apple Guide a bit, and it was
also very good. Now why can't UNIX help be anything like that???

Nix

unread,
Feb 25, 1995, 2:50:39 PM2/25/95
to
Jeremy William Yackel (jwya...@acs.ucalgary.ca) wrote:

[someone else wrote]
: : ... I've found some _very_ warped people who
: : >like DOS,

Nah, WARPed people like OS/2 3.0 :)

: : I confess I sometimes find it more convenient to manage files in

: : DOS than with the Windoze File Manager.

: : ... but for most CS majors and grad students, it's Linux or OS/2.

: Linux is great (if you have software for it). I kinda like X.

OS/2 with the XFeel DLL installed is very nice.

: : Linux is, of course, is a version of that hackers' all-time
: : favorite: UNIX

: : OS/2? I've seen such early names for it as "Oh Shit Two!" and


: : "Half an OS", but I've seen a lot of positive comments about more recent
: : versions of it. Maybe IBM has finally got its act together :-)

: hehehe.

What's *that* supposed to mean?

: : And the nicest thing of all is that they run on Intel 80x86
: : chips, providing competition for Chairman Bill.

: : ... Who

: : >can blame them? Of course they _should_ get a Mac.

: Why?
: Why not a workstation.

After all, workstations cost less...

: : I agree :-) But the Mac still has a way to go on the OS-innards
: : front, like:

: : Preemptive multitasking
: : Multiple protected memory spaces

: Warp does that sort of.

'Sort of'?

: : [Well, at least Apple is working on those two...]

: : Remote logins

: Haven't seen too many Mac ftp servers. (none actually)

I heard of one, once. Only once.

--
---------------------------------------------------
Windows Terminal - aptly describes Windows in two words.
'Whoev'r it was, I've gotta blow up with a chaaaaainsaw' - 'Stuss'

Dan Pop

unread,
Feb 25, 1995, 8:05:51 PM2/25/95