Stolen fanfics! (Attention: Skyknight!)
Edward Becerra
I'm sending this to the newsgroup AND to Bert
because of my outrage.
MediaMiner has taken the entire contents of
the RAAC archive and posted them to their own site.
More important, they're running banner ads at the
top of EVERY page, including the pages that contain
the stories taken from RAAC.
Folks, that means that the people behind
MediaMiner are making MONEY from OUR works!
Bert, they even have YOUR fic!
Bubblegum Zone can be found at the following
MediaMiner URL:
http://www.mediaminer.org/fanfic/src.php?auth=13171
Complete with annoying banner ads, busily
sucking down cash to make MediaMiner richer.
More members of the fanfic community can
be found by using this URL:
http://www.mediaminer.org/fanfic/srca.php?arn=A
If your stories are up there without your
permission, I strongly suggest getting in touch
with these people and telling them how you feel
about the mis-use of your stories.
Just thought you should know, as soon as
possible.
Ed "I am REALLY pissed off!" Becerra
"Dreamers may die, but the Dream is eternal..."
Jeanne Hedge
"RAAC", and some with a name have the wrong author's name, but much
seems to have been stolen from the BGC Fanfic guide too.
I know I didn't give my permission to have banners stuck on my stuff.
I wonder if the Eyrie guys know (or care) they've been archived this
way?
And BGPink got rated "NC17"? What's it take to get an "X" from these
people?
Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
8th Annual Anime/Manga Fan Survey
NOW thru NOVEMBER 21
*** http://go.compuserve.com/anime ***
CompuServe Anime/Manga Forum via Your Browser
- IT'S FREE! -
Benjamin D. Hutchins
>I wonder if the Eyrie guys know (or care) they've been archived this
>way?
I've been informed by about a half-dozen different people that
mediaminer were doing this with raac output, although none of them
have mentioned whether they'd actually seen any of our material on
their site. I've been busy with other things the last couple of days
and haven't cared enough to go and check it out.
>And BGPink got rated "NC17"? What's it take to get an "X" from these
>people?
Well, in the MPAA system NC17 replaced X - they're the same rating -
so if mediaminer are mimicking the MPAA, well, there you go.
--G.
--
_O_ Benjamin D. Hutchins - Co-Founder, Editor in Chief & Network Admin
[. .] Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><-
- Cyberleader Darul says: "0 dB SPL is the lowest level of 1KHz tone
the average person can detect." WWW: http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Jeanne Hedge
Hutchins) wrote:
>Jeanne Hedge <jhe...@enteract.com> wrote:
>>I wonder if the Eyrie guys know (or care) they've been archived this
>>way?
>
>I've been informed by about a half-dozen different people that
>mediaminer were doing this with raac output, although none of them
>have mentioned whether they'd actually seen any of our material on
>their site. I've been busy with other things the last couple of days
>and haven't cared enough to go and check it out.
I did see "Hopelessly Lost" there. I didn't bother to see how *much*
of HL was there.
Rob Kelk
<eabe...@schollnet.com> wrote:
>
> I'm sending this to the newsgroup AND to Bert
>because of my outrage.
>
> MediaMiner has taken the entire contents of
>the RAAC archive and posted them to their own site.
>More important, they're running banner ads at the
>top of EVERY page, including the pages that contain
>the stories taken from RAAC.
>
> Folks, that means that the people behind
>MediaMiner are making MONEY from OUR works!
Hmmmmm... Since I've got some stories in the RAAC archive, I guess I'll
have to send these people a bill, then. How much do people get from
banner ads these days, anyway? (I'm thinking of billing them 125% of
their gross for taking my work...)
<snip>
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.tripod.com> rob...@ottawa.com
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of
childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis, 1947
Will
Isn't MediaMiner a search engine - with the minor difference that they host
most (not all!) of their indexed content?
Instead of MediaMiner, couldn't anyone just use, say, Altavista,
Northernlight or Ask.com to find one of your fics, assuming they're
_somewhere_ on the web (and they should be, even if they've only been posted
on RAAC they'll still be in Google Groups and the RAAC archive itself, which
AFAIK is an FTP). Now, all search engines (with a few notable exceptions)
show banner ads. Some even show them as a sub-frame or popup when you reach
the page you were searching for.
Are these search engines "stealing" your works because they show banner ads
on them?
Also, I see nothing on the RAAC FTP that says "no mirroring" - and parts of
the RAAC have been mirrored before, especially the Ranma fics, it seems. And
yes, some of the mirrors do have ads. Is this "stealing", too?
Isn't MediaMiner just mirroring the archive (adding a few banners to keep
their account balances out of the red)?
The MediaMiner archive of fanfics and fanart is fast, easy to search, and
the fanfic/fanart authors are _all properly credited_. For a fanworks
_consumer_ such as myself, it's a f**ing valuable resource. If I saw any of
my attempts at fic-writing on there (I don't - weird, I thought they were in
the RAAC) I'd be pleasantly suprised that someone had felt that it was good
enough to publish it on their site.
Obviously, you don't see it that way. Fine by me. Just sharing my point of
view. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go browse some more - seems they have
the Love Hina mangas in their archives, too. Wonderful.
Now read this. It's from the MediaMiner forums. One author was complaining
that his fic had been posted without his permission, and he got this as a
response:
"I think what had happened with your stories (why they are posted here, so
to speak) is they were archived in the RAAC files. The moderators of Media
Minor obtained permission to archive here all stories in the RAAC."
You submitted your fics to RAAC. The RAAC archive admins decided they'd
share it with MediaMiner. That's probably not illegal ... so unless
MediaMiner decides to be nice and remove works on request, I think there's
little you can do - except pull your works out of the RAAC archive, which
would remove the claim which MediaMiner has on them. Tough luck.
The URL to the forum thread in question is here:
http://www.mediaminer.org/forum/msg.php?th=248&start=0&rid=
As for this archive being "commercial use" of your fics, I think that's a
load of bull ; it's a FREE archive, isn't it. Sure, they run an ad on each
page, but what else is going to pay their web server bills? If it was a
paysite (ie, you had to pay to access the fanworks) I'd understand your
concerns.
Hmm, looks like MediaMiner are offering a free search form for anyone to put
on their website. Sounds like something I could use to improve The Perils of
Nene-chan .. not until this fanfic brawl is over though. Wouldn't want to
upset anybody.
"Rob Kelk" <rob...@ottawa.com> wrote in message
news:3bec753...@news.cis.dfn.de...
Will
Will
Can anyone recommend a good Usenet client?
"Will" <wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com> wrote in message
news:3bec8...@corp-news.newsgroups.com...
Jeanne Hedge
wrote:
>Calm down people.
>
>Isn't MediaMiner a search engine - with the minor difference that they host
>most (not all!) of their indexed content?
No, it's not a search engine. www.mediaminer.org is a commercial web
site. The fanfics in question are on that website, and are formatted
for that website, which includes many links to other areas of that
website and commercial advertising on each and every fanfic.
I'm not happy about someone taking my stuff from raac and using it for
their own commercial advantage, and I'm even more unhappy that they
didn't ask first.
Bob Schroeck
> * gry...@rei.nerv.gweep.net (Benjamin D. Hutchins) on Fri, 09 Nov 2001
> | Well, in the MPAA system NC17 replaced X - they're the same rating -
> | so if mediaminer are mimicking the MPAA, well, there you go.
> originally used by porn movie studios in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
> The "Rated X" seal was designed to resemble the MPAA's seals, to give it
> some semblance of legitimacy.
Actually, you've got it backwards. The MPAA *did* come up with the X,
but for some unknown reason forgot to trademark it like they did the other
ratings. (Some have suggested they did/didn't so that what actually happened
would happen -- "X" would become synonymous with "porn", thus discouraging
studios from making serious films with major adult content.) In any case,
because the rating wasn't trademarked, the porn industry pretty much hijacked
it. Because it got misused until it was meaningless, the MPAA created the
NC-17 and remembered to trademark it this time.
-- Bob
===============================================================================
Robert M. Schroeck r...@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~rms
===============================================================================
Please to remember
Eleven September --
Hijack, destruction and plot.
Our outraged reaction
To terrorist action
Should never be forgot.
===============================================================================
John H Bogan
You're still a little off-base.
The MPAA created the "X" rating (no one under 17 admitted without an
adult), but didn't copyright it so that directors could opt to simply
declare the film "rated X" (i.e., for grownups) and not bother with an
MPAA review. Naturally, porn films took this option, which led many
theaters to not accept any film with an X rating, which killed the
marketability of any general film rated "X", and so X became the de
facto mark of porn films.
Still, there were a couple of "normal" films, like Midnight Cowboy,
that were Rated X before it became porn turf.
TheG0dThatFailed
of this to spread, so I'm taking the liberty....
Subject: [Admin] The mediaminer story
From: Brian Edmonds raac-coo...@gweep.ca
Date: 11/9/2001 7:12 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <m31yj7s...@yuri.aq2.gweep.ca>
I have posted about this to rec.arts.anime.fandom, but given the
increasing bruhaha and misinformation I'm seeing, I would like to make
sure that everyone has all the facts. I'll admit to being quite
surprised at the level of response this has received, so either I'm not
fully appreciating some nuance of the situation, or people out there are
operating on insufficient information.
In short, I did not give Mediaminer permission to mirror the RAAC
archive. I did give them suggestions on details that I felt would make
said mirroring more acceptable to the community.
In long:
Mediaminer approached me for permission to mirror the RAAC archive under
their web service, and to email all the authors to tell them about it.
Asking in advance tends to make me more receptive due to the nature of
the RAAC archive: it is publicly available, and neither I nor anyone
else can prevent anyone who wishes to from taking material from it to
use in any way they wish. Asking permission is a sign that they are
interested in working with the community.
I told them that I cannot give permission, per se, as the stories are
not mine, but should they wish to use them at a minimum they would be
expected to retain any authorship and copyright information, the archive
must be freely accessible to all, and I would appreciate their making
the origin of the stories clear. From what I have observed, they have
met all of these conditions.
I believed that a web interface to RAAC would be of benefit to the
community. Perhaps more investigation would have been in order, but at
the time it seemed like a standard mirror situation, and I had no reason
to expect any problems. In the future I will be sure to run such
requests by the moderation team for sanity checking.
I also cautioned them that any mass email would have to be handled
*very* carefully to avoid accusations of spamming. My understanding is
that they have an administrative interface for authors that they wish
give you all access to, and to do so they need to send you mail (to send
you your password at the very least). I have no idea where this part of
the process stands.
As for the banner ads, I am sympathetic to both sides. Fanfic authors
don't want anyone else making money off of their works, and/or object to
the content of some of the particular banners. However, bandwidth and
storage cost money. I cover most of the front-end costs of RAAC out of
my own pocket, and have no problem doing so because it's really not a
lot, and it's useful to many people.
Please do not mail me or any other moderator to request your fic be
removed from the archive, as that will have no impact on its presence in
any other source that gets data from the RAAC archive.
Please *do* contact Mediaminer, and work with them to resolve the
situation to your individual liking. Please do not take an adversarial
position with them, as that will only make things harder on both sides.
If you do work with them and cannot come to a mutually acceptable
resolution, then please feel free to let me know. If it unexpectedly
turns out that they cannot work with the community to the satisfaction
of a significant number of authors, then I/we do have some compilation
rights to the material as a whole which can potentially be leveraged.
I hope this clears things up at least a little.
Brian (rec.arts.anime.creative moderation coordinator).
Shawn Hagen
wrote:
>I'm not happy about someone taking my stuff from raac and using it for
>their own commercial advantage, and I'm even more unhappy that they
>didn't ask first.
That was my initial feeling when someone informed me about this a
couple of days ago. I was getting ready to send them an e-mail
message, deamnding that they remove my work from their site. Then I
asked myself the question, 'and when did I get Artmic and Youmex's
permissions to use characters and situations they owned?'
I also gave it some realistic thought.
No one is going to Mediaminer to read my fanfics. I mean, really,
they can find them on the RAAC archive, and the many archives that
mirror it (which I have never complained about), and on people's
homepages.
What they may go to Mediaminer for is to use the rather nifty
rating system, the review system, the search features and an HTML,
read right there, format.
So, I have to wonder, is Mediaminer actually making money off my
work, or their own work in setting up the page?
Ultimately, what concerns me the most is that money may be made
off BGC, DP, VPM, FSS, Mekton, and the owners of those properties are
getting nothing for it. Before Fanfic was something I felt was safe,
because no one was making any money off of it and the owners and
creators were not being hurt or losing anything.
Now that may have changed.
I've sent mediaminer an e-mail and I will be interested to hear
what their response to my concerns will be.
Later,
"We're here in the Engineering Section of the
starship Enterprise. Unknown to anyone, we have
replaced the fine dilithium crystals they usually
use with Folgers crystals. Let's see what happens."
-Shawn Hagen <shawn...@home.com>
TheG0dThatFailed
okay, how to put this?.....
Rule #1 of the internet : _Anything_ posted on the internet _Anywhere_ is free
game, for _Any_ purpose.
This seems to be something that most internet users (big business and microsoft
included) don't seem to comprehend for some reason; but conversely is something
that is so glaringly obvious that it seems almost impossible for them not to.
It's a simple fact of data storage : you can't keep people from copying your
zeros and ones; and once that information is put in a place that it's
accessable (say, anywhere on the internet) it's going to be copied, and someone
is going to use it for something.
Granted, data can be used in immoral ways and used for immoral ends (say taking
people's free works and putting them on a site with banner ads); but it is a
simple consequnce of the very nature of data that it can be used in any way.
So, unless someone around here can come up with a way to change the very nature
of data, or how it's stored and communicated on the internet; I have a simple
phrase for everyone who's bitchin : "Quit yer bitchin, you really should have
seen this coming."
^v^ Dan ^v^
TheG0dThatFailed
For the whole story on this, go over to raac and read the Admin post about it.
^v^ Dan ^v^
Sarah Davis
Shawn Hagen wrote in message
<3becb51...@news4.rdc1.on.wave.home.com>...
>On Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:09:39 GMT, jhe...@enteract.com (Jeanne Hedge)
>wrote:
>
>>I'm not happy about someone taking my stuff from raac and using it for
>>their own commercial advantage, and I'm even more unhappy that they
>>didn't ask first.
>
> That was my initial feeling when someone informed me about this a
>couple of days ago. I was getting ready to send them an e-mail
>message, deamnding that they remove my work from their site. Then I
>asked myself the question, 'and when did I get Artmic and Youmex's
>permissions to use characters and situations they owned?'
Last I checked, you weren't writing fanfiction for profit. One could argue
Mediaminer only uses ads to curtail the cost of hosting the fanfiction, but
that doesn't excuse how disrespectful it is to archive somebody's work
without permission. I'm already irked at the raac archive admin for not
removing my writing when I made that request a year or two ago. Knowing it
might be archived somewhere else leaves me a mite agitated.
People are angry because they've lost control of their work - work for which
they've in most cases earned no money and, at best, achieved a very minimal
degree of celebrity among very small circles. I see only a slim vestige of
likeness between Mediaminer archiving work and fans writing it. That said, I
wouldn't be surprised if both acts are equally, if sketchily, protected by
international laws.
Sarah
ANS709
RAAC ;)
Amanda
Startide Rising
eabe...@schollnet.com said...
> MediaMiner has taken the entire contents of
> the RAAC archive and posted them to their own site.
> More important, they're running banner ads at the
> top of EVERY page, including the pages that contain
> the stories taken from RAAC.
>
> be found by using this URL:
>
> http://www.mediaminer.org/fanfic/srca.php?arn=A
>
> If your stories are up there without your
> permission, I strongly suggest getting in touch
> with these people and telling them how you feel
> about the mis-use of your stories.
The DMCA officially amends various aspects of the USA
copyright laws. Section 1202 'Integrity of copyright
management information' specifies that:
--QUOTE--
`(b) REMOVAL OR ALTERATION OF COPYRIGHT MANAGEMENT
INFORMATION- No person shall, without the authority of the
copyright owner or the law--
`(1) intentionally remove or alter any copyright management
information,
`(2) distribute or import for distribution copyright
management information knowing that the copyright management
information has been removed or altered without authority of
the copyright owner or the law, or
`(3) distribute, import for distribution, or publicly
perform works, copies of works, or phonorecords, knowing
that copyright management information has been removed or
altered without authority of the copyright owner or the law,
--END QUOTE--
The above is contained within the DMCA as archived at:
DMCA
http://www.eff.org/ip/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-
304.html
So, if this MediaMiner place has removed your names and
copyright information, that would not be legal under the
DMCA.
Copyright Myths
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
Older Copyright FAQ for background
http://web.mit.edu/cwis/copyright/faq.html
Startide
Robyn, Duke of Amber
true...
Heck if they had simply asked I would have most likely said yes.
but they didn't.
One of the reasons I post to r.a.a.c is a sneaky one....
it provides ME with a backup that I know I can pretty much always get....
I don't mind sharing..heck I'll volenteer to do so.. but in such cases..
ya, I want ot be asked.
I reminds me of a lemon I wrote which someone decided to "help" me with.
- removing plot and adding some um.. graphical adjustment.
I wasn't real happy then either.
Neil
On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Sarah Davis wrote:
> People are angry because they've lost control of their work - work for which
> they've in most cases earned no money and, at best, achieved a very minimal
> degree of celebrity among very small circles. I see only a slim vestige of
> likeness between Mediaminer archiving work and fans writing it. That said, I
> wouldn't be surprised if both acts are equally, if sketchily, protected by
> international laws.
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
_____________
Seraphim, the Restless Angel with a (borrowed) sword.
________
Nene, Ami,
Girls with glasses. girls with computers. Pink hair. blue hair
_______________________
Robyn, Duke of Amber. Agent of Chaos.
***************************************************************************
Warren Werner
wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com says...
> Fuck Outlook Express .. it keeps double-posting for some reason.
> Can anyone recommend a good Usenet client?
>
> /w
> http://www.nene-chan.com
>
Check the following URL to get MicroPlanet Gravity...I've been using it
for a few months now, and it's the best newsreader I've personally used!
Best of all, this one is free!
http://www.nonags.com/files/redirect/?ftp://64.36.132.56/pub/grav25.exe
Warren
--
--:
Warren Werner
a.k.a. Knightsabre
Web: http://www.crucialrealm.com
-or- http://knightsabre.tripod.com
E-mail: knigh...@crucialrealm.com
-or- knigh...@null.net
chika
Will <wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com> wrote:
> Fuck Outlook Express .. it keeps double-posting for some reason.
> Can anyone recommend a good Usenet client?
Try Forte. The freebie Free Agent is good, the full version is better...
Shawn Hagen
<davis426...@home.com> wrote:
>People are angry because they've lost control of their work ...... I see only a slim vestige of
>likeness between Mediaminer archiving work and fans writing it.
True, and I agree with that, though I an understand how it might
have sounded the otherwise. Yet I still did not ask permission to use
the characters and situations. Yes, I did not make any money off of
it, and it did not (in all likelihood) hurt the original owners (and
in the case of the SBB work, I probably helped them), whereas
mediaminer has caused some hurt, which is where the main difference
lies I suppose.
I might get upset in the next few days. If Mediaminer meant well
and just did a bad job, I can accept that, especially if they remove
the banner adds. If that is the case, we will probably know in a few
days.
Right now I'm still trying to deal with the fact my country's
government has disapointed me greatly in many ways and trying to
decide what I think about that. Mediaminer's actions are quite minor,
but likely to become something of a McGuffin.
Sarah Davis
Shawn Hagen wrote in message
>On Fri, 9 Nov 2001 22:02:16 -0800, "Sarah Davis"
><davis426...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>People are angry because they've lost control of their work ...... I see
only a slim vestige of
>>likeness between Mediaminer archiving work and fans writing it.
>
> True, and I agree with that, though I an understand how it might
>have sounded the otherwise. Yet I still did not ask permission to use
>the characters and situations. Yes, I did not make any money off of
>it, and it did not (in all likelihood) hurt the original owners (and
>in the case of the SBB work, I probably helped them), whereas
>mediaminer has caused some hurt, which is where the main difference
>lies I suppose.
Mediaminer hasn't caused "hurt" per se. What they've done is displayed gross
ignorance of, and disregard for, their target audience's opinions of their
operation. It isn't deeply wounding anyone, but it's annoying as hell.
Sarah
Kris Overstreet
(TheG0dThatFailed) wrote:
>:::snippage of all replies to this thread:::
>
>okay, how to put this?.....
>
>Rule #1 of the internet : _Anything_ posted on the internet _Anywhere_ is free
>game, for _Any_ purpose.
>So, unless someone around here can come up with a way to change the very nature
>of data, or how it's stored and communicated on the internet; I have a simple
>phrase for everyone who's bitchin : "Quit yer bitchin, you really should have
>seen this coming."
I don't bitch; I call my lawyer.
Just because I make a story available for free on the Internet does
-not- mean I give open permission to copy it.
And when I catch someone posting images from WLP's website to
newsgroups, I come down -hard- on them.
You can indeed defend your copyrights and trademarks online, if you
bother to pay a little attention.
Redneck
Rob Kelk
wrote:
>Fuck Outlook Express .. it keeps double-posting for some reason.
>Can anyone recommend a good Usenet client?
I use Free Agent - <http://www.forteinc.com>
>/w
>http://www.nene-chan.com
>
>"Will" <wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com> wrote in message
>news:3bec8...@corp-news.newsgroups.com...
<snip>
>> Now read this. It's from the MediaMiner forums. One author was complaining
>> that his fic had been posted without his permission, and he got this as a
>> response:
>>
>> "I think what had happened with your stories (why they are posted here, so
>> to speak) is they were archived in the RAAC files. The moderators of Media
>> Minor obtained permission to archive here all stories in the RAAC."
Quoting from <news:m31yj7s...@yuri.aq2.gweep.ca>, made by Brian
Edmonds to RAAC:
| In short, I did not give Mediaminer permission to mirror the RAAC
| archive.
I'd trust Mr. Edmonds (who I've known of for years) over some company
I'd never heard of before I learned they put fanfics on their site
without asking me.
<snip>
>> As for this archive being "commercial use" of your fics, I think that's a
>> load of bull ; it's a FREE archive, isn't it. Sure, they run an ad on each
>> page, but what else is going to pay their web server bills?
They can pay their bills out of their own pocket, the way Mr. Edmonds
has done for years (and the way the TASS archive folks have for years,
too).
<snip>
>> Hmm, looks like MediaMiner are offering a free search form for anyone to
>put
>> on their website. Sounds like something I could use to improve The Perils
>of
>> Nene-chan .. not until this fanfic brawl is over though. Wouldn't want to
>> upset anybody.
I can write you a search form that uses the free AltaVista search
database. E-mail me if you're interested.
<quoted stuff snipped>
Robert Geiger
Robyn, Duke of Amber <sera...@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:20011110044940...@granite.sentex.ca...
>
What was this lemon? ^_^
TheG0dThatFailed
>>:::snippage of all replies to this thread:::
>>
>>okay, how to put this?.....
>>
>>Rule #1 of the internet : _Anything_ posted on the internet _Anywhere_ is
>free
>>game, for _Any_ purpose.
>
>
>>So, unless someone around here can come up with a way to change the very
>nature
>>of data, or how it's stored and communicated on the internet; I have a
>simple
>>phrase for everyone who's bitchin : "Quit yer bitchin, you really should
>have
>>seen this coming."
Nice snipping of part of my original post without putting in a :::snip::: in
the proper place.....
>
>I don't bitch; I call my lawyer.
>
>Just because I make a story available for free on the Internet does
>-not- mean I give open permission to copy it.
>
>And when I catch someone posting images from WLP's website to
>newsgroups, I come down -hard- on them.
>
>You can indeed defend your copyrights and trademarks online, if you
>bother to pay a little attention.
>
>Redneck
Are you going to police the entire internet for your works?
Can you filter every Terabyte of information that goes across every T-3 line in
the world?
I apprecate the situation, really I do. I happen to have several stories that
I've written (under other names) posted all over the internet, including at
MediaMiner. I never gave anyone permission to put them anywhere, except as
expressed by raac when I posted there. I don't like that they've ended up in
places that I don't want them at. But really, there's not much to be done
about it. You can rattle your saber at the ones you catch, and scare 'em into
doing what's legally "right" with law muscle. But in the end, you can't catch
them all; and in the end, there's many many more of them then there are of you.
My original point stands, if it's posted on the 'net, it's free game, wether
you like it or not. It's ones and zeros and you can't stop people from taking
it. The entire idea of "intillecual property rights" is laughable; and as soon
as businesses and people realize this we'll all be better off.
^v^ Dan ^v^
TheG0dThatFailed
I know I'm replying twice to the same post... but this occured to me later and
it makes my point much more clearly I think.
>On 10 Nov 2001 05:46:33 GMT, theg0dth...@aol.com
>(TheG0dThatFailed) wrote:
>
>>:::snippage of all replies to this thread:::
>>
>>okay, how to put this?.....
>>
>>Rule #1 of the internet : _Anything_ posted on the internet _Anywhere_ is
>free
>>game, for _Any_ purpose.
>
insert proper ::::snippage of Dan's original post:::: here.
>
>>So, unless someone around here can come up with a way to change the very
>nature
>>of data, or how it's stored and communicated on the internet; I have a
>simple
>>phrase for everyone who's bitchin : "Quit yer bitchin, you really should
>have
>>seen this coming."
>
>I don't bitch; I call my lawyer.
>
>Just because I make a story available for free on the Internet does
>-not- mean I give open permission to copy it.
:::snip:::
That's like having a band and giving out free promotional CD's at clubs, but
then saying to everyone that takes one "Oh no. You can't make copies of that
to give to your friends, they all have to get a free copy from me."
It's ridiculous to : a) believe that it would happen that way, and b) that they
won't copy it en mass for whatever reason they want anyway.
^v^ Dan ^v^
Benjamin D. Hutchins
>The entire idea of "intillecual property rights" is laughable; and as soon
>as businesses and people realize this we'll all be better off.
... well, "all" for values of "all" that leave out people who make
their living through intangible creativity...
--G.
--
_O_ Benjamin D. Hutchins - Co-Founder, Editor in Chief & Network Admin
[. .] Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><-
- Cyberleader Darul says: "0 dB SPL is the lowest level of 1KHz tone
the average person can detect." WWW: http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Art
"TheG0dThatFailed" <theg0dth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011110234153...@mb-mq.aol.com...
> :::snip:::
>
> That's like having a band and giving out free promotional CD's at clubs,
but
> then saying to everyone that takes one "Oh no. You can't make copies of
that
> to give to your friends, they all have to get a free copy from me."
> It's ridiculous to : a) believe that it would happen that way, and b) that
they
> won't copy it en mass for whatever reason they want anyway.
>
> ^v^ Dan ^v^
A good point. The only problem with Mediaminer.org is that they are trying
to make money off of copyrighted works.
The author/artist might go after them because of the money issue, but then
again... they might not.
Arthur Hansen
Will
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:54:32 +0100, "Will" <wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com>
> wrote:
>
> I can write you a search form that uses the free AltaVista search
> database. E-mail me if you're interested.
>
Altavista may not be as stuffed with porn links (which'd pop up on ANY
search query) as it used to be, but it's not nearly as good a source for
fanworks as MediaMiner. Thanks, but no thanks.
Robyn, Duke of Amber
It was a lemon to begin with but it became something quite different when
the other person "fixed" it.
But then when I set sail for the shores of citrus I tend to actually
include some sort of character development and reason for "relations".
I mean to some degree the sex is the centeral point o the story but the
characters should at the very least stay in character or have a good
excuse not to.
I wrote one story (a Sailor Moon Story, and not the one I mentioned
above) called "In My Minds Eye" Which is more a bitter taste of lime than
a lemon. In it the main character acts out of subconcious drives *despite*
being brainwashed and made "evil"
So for all intens and purposes he is still in character in a scene which
*could* have hapened in one of those "off camaera" moments fanfic writers
love.
I'm not perfect and never (hopefully) will be but I still don't like
diddling with my stuff unless I've requested it.
Editorial comments etc are always hepful and I'm STILL waiting for
someone to ask to MST3K some of my stuff but that's different that
re-writing a story and posting it as mine. In such a case I don't want the
credit... but also don't want the "borrowed" elements showing up without
my permission in another work.
In the event in question when it was posted several other people actually
protested more than I did. I just asked the poster/writer not to do it,
that was fine and that was that.... no problem... a few others were in the
"ALL CAPS SHOUTING MODE!!!" :)
Neil
On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Robert Geiger wrote:
> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 01:42:38 GMT
> Robyn, Duke of Amber <sera...@sentex.net> wrote in message
> news:20011110044940...@granite.sentex.ca...
> >
>
>
> What was this lemon? ^_^
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
Kris Overstreet
(TheG0dThatFailed) wrote:
>That's like having a band and giving out free promotional CD's at clubs, but
>then saying to everyone that takes one "Oh no. You can't make copies of that
>to give to your friends, they all have to get a free copy from me."
Well... -yes.-
(1) The band may want to sell recordings of those songs in the future;
(2) and bootleg copies may not even mention who the band -is-, thus
negating the promotional value of the images.
Kris@WLP
Kris Overstreet
(TheG0dThatFailed) wrote:
>Are you going to police the entire internet for your works?
I try, and I have help.
>Can you filter every Terabyte of information that goes across every T-3 line in
>the world?
I don't need to; only those public forums which are frequented by
large numbers of people, like pay sites and newsgroups.
> But in the end, you can't catch
>them all; and in the end, there's many many more of them then there are of you.
You can't catch all the other thieves in our society, either; should
we therefore make theft legal?
Kris@WLP
TheG0dThatFailed
>TheG0dThatFailed <theg0dth...@aol.com> wrote:
>>The entire idea of "intillecual property rights" is laughable; and as soon
>>as businesses and people realize this we'll all be better off.
>
>... well, "all" for values of "all" that leave out people who make
>their living through intangible creativity...
Hrmm.... okay... too much of a blanket statement on my part. I apologize, as
I've been in a semi-rant mode for the past few days; induced by a conversation
about M$ vs open source OS's.
To clarify, I don't mean that credit shouldn't be given where credit is due;
far from it. If you came up with something original, you deserve the credit
for it. The crux of what I'm trying to put across though, is that once
something hits circulation (a book printed, an article written in a magazine,
content posted to the internet, etc.); it's going to be consumed, processed by
others, and eventually tampered with/ tweeked/ rewritten/ or otherwise meddled
in by other people. You really shouldn't expect otherwise.
As someone who has had his original works Shanghaied and played with by others;
I'll say that I don't like other people in MY playground; BUT I also can't deny
that what they did with my idea wasn't an original work in and of itself. They
created something of their own based on something I put into the world. Do I
deserve credit for their story? No. What I do deserve credit for is creating
the situations and characters that were the center of the story. I also
believe that if _I_ came up with the original idea/ story/ artwork/ whatever;
that _I_ deserve to have say over how it's used. Unfortuneately that's not how
it works in the real world. So I deal with the lack of the world's bending to
my wishes and go on with life knowing it's just not going to work how I want it
to and taking the good with the freaking bad. Damn, can I make a sentence run
on or what?
After re-reading all of that, I'm not sure if I've actually clarified
anything... :::shrugs::: oh well.
"Intillectual Property Rights" in my mind should pretty much mean that you have
the Right to Have Credit Where it's Due. It doesn't mean though that you have
the right to say "Hey, you can't do that with this!". It does mean you have
the right to say "That's not what I intended for it, and this thing is this way
according to ME because I'm the guy that made it."
I think THAT clarifies.... but then it is a muddy situation to begin with isn't
it?
^v^ Dan ^v^
TheG0dThatFailed
Okay, you've managed to completely miss my point here.
My point is : it's patently ridiculous to bother making a statement like the
one I presented in my example above. As soon as any data leaves your hands and
enters another person's, you've lost control over it. Expecting that you can
somehow keep that control is just foolish. It doesn't matter what you or the
band wants. The moment you put your data in a place that it's accessable to
others, or hand it over to someone else on a CD or whatever; that data becomes
_theirs_ to do with as they please. No, I personally don't like how that works
out sometimes, but it's the way things are; and as I said before that won't
change until someone can fundamentally change the way data is stored and
transmitted.
^v^ Dan ^v^
MegaZone
> MediaMiner has taken the entire contents of
>the RAAC archive and posted them to their own site.
Brian Edmonds was asked and gave them *permission* to mirror the RAAC
archives so long as the materials were openly available to everyone - and
they are.
-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
<URL:mailto:mega...@megazone.org> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 781-788-0130
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris
MegaZone
>I know I didn't give my permission to have banners stuck on my stuff.
Was it posted to USEnet? Then this isn't the first time - there are more
than one USEnet mirror site that uses ads.
>I wonder if the Eyrie guys know (or care) they've been archived this
>way?
I know, and have known, and don't care at all.
>And BGPink got rated "NC17"? What's it take to get an "X" from these
>people?
X isn't a real rating, NC17 is the official equivalent to 'X'.
MegaZone
>Mediaminer only uses ads to curtail the cost of hosting the fanfiction, but
>that doesn't excuse how disrespectful it is to archive somebody's work
>without permission. I'm already irked at the raac archive admin for not
Oh bullshit. If you post to a public forum - be it a mailing list or
newsgroup - then you waive your control over archives of the material.
Perhaps you have the legal right of copyright, but de facto the net has
never worked that way. Unless it is a private list with an established
'no archives' policy then you have to *expect* someone will archive it.
See also Deja News - now part og Google. The stated policy of
rec.arts.anime.creative, since *DAY ONE* (as rec.arts.anime.stories) is
that ALL POSTS ARE ARCHIVED. Period. I established that policy, and it
remains in effect. You post, you grant permission for it to be archived.
You don't want it archived - don't post there.
>People are angry because they've lost control of their work - work for which
You lost control of it the day you posted it - anyone who doesn't believe
that doesn't understand the net.
MediaMiner is probably protected in the same was Deja is - they're only
providing a different interface to materials available via other public
sources. It is no different than one of the USEnet portals that also uses
ads.
Sarah Davis
MegaZone wrote in message <10055797...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net>...
>"Sarah Davis" <davis426...@home.com> shaped the electrons to say:
>>Mediaminer only uses ads to curtail the cost of hosting the fanfiction,
but
>>that doesn't excuse how disrespectful it is to archive somebody's work
>>without permission. I'm already irked at the raac archive admin for not
>
>Oh bullshit. If you post to a public forum - be it a mailing list or
>newsgroup - then you waive your control over archives of the material.
>Perhaps you have the legal right of copyright, but de facto the net has
>never worked that way. Unless it is a private list with an established
>'no archives' policy then you have to *expect* someone will archive it.
>See also Deja News - now part og Google. The stated policy of
>rec.arts.anime.creative, since *DAY ONE* (as rec.arts.anime.stories) is
>that ALL POSTS ARE ARCHIVED. Period. I established that policy, and it
>remains in effect. You post, you grant permission for it to be archived.
>You don't want it archived - don't post there.
I wasn't objecting to the stories being archived. You snipped the part where
I said I asked to have the stories removed. I knew well enough they'd be
archived, and initually I wanted them to be. I also thought they could be
deleted from the archives upon my request. Through later experience, I
learned I was wrong.
>>People are angry because they've lost control of their work - work for
which
>
>You lost control of it the day you posted it - anyone who doesn't believe
>that doesn't understand the net.
I understand the Internet well enough. If I post something, I know there's a
chance it will be redistributed. I find that annoying, albeit not hurtful,
as I made clear in my second post to the thread. I was stating an opinion--
not a manifesto.
>MediaMiner is probably protected in the same was Deja is - they're only
>providing a different interface to materials available via other public
>sources.
I alluded to the organization likely being protected, but you snipped that
part, too.
>It is no different than one of the USEnet portals that also uses
>ads.
I made it clear that I understood the ads served - or could be said to
serve - a utilitarian purpose. You didn't snip that part of my post, so I
can't imagine how you missed it.
Sarah
Anim...@nospam.com.invalid
theg0dth...@aol.com said...
> As soon as any data leaves your hands and enters another
> person's, you've lost control over it. Expecting that you
> can somehow keep that control is just foolish.
That's why certain formats such as .LIT have been created
by Microsoft.
> It doesn't matter what you or the band wants. The moment
> you put your data in a place that it's accessable to
> others, or hand it over to someone else on a CD or whatever;
> that data becomes _theirs_ to do with as they please.
The data is in their hands, that is correct. But if it is
backed up by encryption and something like a Passport
secure device (see Windows XP), then there is a good
chance propagation can be limited.
> No, I personally don't like how that works out sometimes,
> but it's the way things are; and as I said before that won't
> change until someone can fundamentally change the way data
> is stored and transmitted. ^v^ Dan ^v^
Software engineers will try to implement your wishes. The
chances that the general public will each have Nene's
skill to decrypt their customized/individualized versions
is going to be a good thing.
TheG0dThatFailed
>In <20011111215648...@mb-fo.aol.com>,
>theg0dth...@aol.com said...
>> As soon as any data leaves your hands and enters another
>> person's, you've lost control over it. Expecting that you
>> can somehow keep that control is just foolish.
>
>That's why certain formats such as .LIT have been created
>by Microsoft.
:::sarcasm::: oh yeah, Microsoft is real good at security :::sarcasm:::
>
>> It doesn't matter what you or the band wants. The moment
>> you put your data in a place that it's accessable to
>> others, or hand it over to someone else on a CD or whatever;
>> that data becomes _theirs_ to do with as they please.
>
>The data is in their hands, that is correct. But if it is
>backed up by encryption and something like a Passport
>secure device (see Windows XP), then there is a good
>chance propagation can be limited.
go to www.grc.com
read up on XP
be afraid
be very afraid
:::snip:::
^v^ dan ^v^
chika
TheG0dThatFailed <theg0dth...@aol.com> wrote:
> go to www.grc.com
> read up on XP
> be afraid
> be very afraid
Experience shows that Microsoft products must be allowed to mature for at
least a year before you even think about trying to use them. Then of
course there are certain things that you should avoid at all costs.
Any guesses on which group XP will end up in? ;)
--
----- Chika - miy...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\//
----- CrashnetUK - crashnet.org.uk (come.to/arena.essex)
... Data, data everywhere, and not a byte to eat!
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
chika <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>Experience shows that Microsoft products must be allowed to mature for at
>least a year before you even think about trying to use them. Then of
>course there are certain things that you should avoid at all costs.
>
>Any guesses on which group XP will end up in? ;)
Flip a coin...
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
Rob Kelk
>
> In article <20011112221347...@mb-mv.aol.com>,
> TheG0dThatFailed <theg0dth...@aol.com> wrote:
> > go to www.grc.com
> > read up on XP
> > be afraid
> > be very afraid
>
> Experience shows that Microsoft products must be allowed to mature for at
> least a year before you even think about trying to use them. Then of
> course there are certain things that you should avoid at all costs.
>
> Any guesses on which group XP will end up in? ;)
Well, considering that they've already shot themselves in the foot at least
once, and the product hasn't been out for a full month yet...
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/22651.html>
Benjamin D. Hutchins
>chika <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Experience shows that Microsoft products must be allowed to mature for at
>> least a year before you even think about trying to use them. Then of
>> course there are certain things that you should avoid at all costs.
>>
>> Any guesses on which group XP will end up in? ;)
>
>Well, considering that they've already shot themselves in the foot at least
>once, and the product hasn't been out for a full month yet...
><http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/22651.html>
Activation is a bad idea on a number of levels, but I have to admit,
as operating environments go I'm finding myself quite fond of XP. I
like the refinements to the interface, the zippier startup/shutdown,
the not having to reboot if I want to change my IP address, and
ClearType. Especially ClearType.
--G.
off-topic since 1991
Disruptor
>
> I'm sending this to the newsgroup AND to Bert
> because of my outrage.
>
> MediaMiner has taken the entire contents of
> the RAAC archive and posted them to their own site.
> top of EVERY page, including the pages that contain
> the stories taken from RAAC.
>
> Folks, that means that the people behind
> MediaMiner are making MONEY from OUR works!
>
> Bert, they even have YOUR fic!
> Bubblegum Zone can be found at the following
> MediaMiner URL:
>
> http://www.mediaminer.org/fanfic/src.php?auth=13171
>
> Complete with annoying banner ads, busily
> sucking down cash to make MediaMiner richer.
>
> More members of the fanfic community can
> be found by using this URL:
>
> http://www.mediaminer.org/fanfic/srca.php?arn=A
>
> If your stories are up there without your
> permission, I strongly suggest getting in touch
> with these people and telling them how you feel
> about the mis-use of your stories.
>
> Just thought you should know, as soon as
> possible.
>
http://www.mediaminer.org/forum/msg.php?th=263&start=0&rid=1
They've taken care of it
Prottoss
> http://www.mediaminer.org/forum/msg.php?th=263&start=0&rid=1
>
> They've taken care of it
Who is "they" you're referring to? T'was all me, heh.
The url you've posted is actually an apology on my behalf to all authors
affected by this blunder. The resolution of the issue can actually be found
here: http://www.mediaminer.org/forum/msg.php?th=276&start=0&rid=1
Which is the thread explaining that R.A.A.C archives were removed from
MediaMiner pending discussion between authors and myself on the issue.
I've finally managed to dig myself out from the pile of rotten eggs and
various vegetables to address the many concerns that have appeared on this
news group. However, it would appear that I have arrived to late as
MegaZone (thank you) had already handled most of the questions.
--
Prottoss
webm...@mediaminer.org
http://www.mediaminer.org/
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you have not planned enough.
Wst1955dd
>that were Rated X before it became porn turf.
Plus, Last Tango in Paris, Candy and a few others in the 70s which is why NC-17
was created to give directors the rating adult content but non-porn.
Adam Jones
> go to www.grc.com
> read up on XP
> be afraid
> be very afraid
Go to http://www.theregister.co.uk/ and read up on Steve Gibson.
Laugh. A lot.
Go to http://vmyths.com/ and read even more about him.
Continue laughing.
--
Adam Jones (ad...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
.oO("CINDY CRAWFORDin homemadeSEX MOVIE!!!!" )
PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
Adam Jones
[WinXP]
> I like the refinements to the interface, the zippier startup/shutdown,
> the not having to reboot if I want to change my IP address
<snigger>
So it no longer reinstalls the entire networking subsystem from the CD
(up to and including telnet.exe) every time you make a minor change to
your networking parameters? Woohoo! :)
(La la la <cough>ifconfig<cough> la la la)
As a distinct point, I still want to know how someone can produce a
(supposedly) microkernel-based OS which requires rebooting for things
like this... surely just killing and restarting the TCP/IP process
would work. Freakish idea, I know... ;)
--
Adam Jones (ad...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
.oO("YOU were on the grassy knoll!" )
Will
(win98?) then you really are in no position to talk. Windows 2000 was
probably the best OS created (albeit with a few flaws) and Windows XP has
all which 2000 didn't have. Games which 2k wouldn't run now run, and this
brand new Logitech Wingman Momo Force Feedback steering wheel I just got
worked under XP right out of the box - although to get force feedback, I had
to download an app from Logitech, then it worked - no reboot required. Try
doing that under any of the *nixes .. in fact, you'd be happy to get a USB
keyboard working under *nix.
As for changing my IP, I haven't needed that for some time now. But I don't
recall ever having to reboot to do that under Windows 2000 or later. And
before you go whining about "*nix is more stable", my Win2k hardly ever
crashed (although flaky 3rd party drivers and apps did cause a few crashes,
nothing too serious, usually not requiring reboot) and WinXP has yet to.
As for security, I have yet to be infected by a virus under XP, even though
I recieve a ton of nimda/sircam e-mails each day (Outlook XP filters them
out). I'm running Internet Explorer 6, and of course, I've downloaded all
necessary security updates from Microsoft. At the last LAN party I was at,
one guy tried to hack my computer but failed miserably. He did manage to
r00t a linux box though, but I'm thinking that was mostly luck (easy to
guess rootpass, probably). I also have yet to find any of the horrible
privacy violations which everyone is moaning about - no, Windows Media
Player does not prohibit me from playing or making MP3s. No, activation did
not alert Microsoft to the huge amount of anime and warez on my hard drive.
The other day, I made an attempt to install Linux-Mandrake 8 on an old
computer, containing nothing but plain old legacy parts (PCI graphics card,
pentium 200 processor, 4 gig hard drive). After finishing the install
process (default settings) linux hung on bootup, allegedly because it
couldn't find my DHCP server. Having disabled DHCP, it hung at the logon
screen, having first failed to start KDE. Apparently my graphics card was
too advanced for poor tux, it was made in 1995 after all.
Fdisked and formatted (Linux is harder to get rid of than Win2k!), chucked
in a WinXP beta disk, installed and two hours (spent copying the files .. 4x
cd-rom, ugh) it's surfing the web and playing MP3's, and doing so quite a
bit faster than Win2k Server (which was installed before I tried Linux).
Note that this was a BETA Windows XP. And it still worked better on standard
settings than Mandrake 8 did. Linux can kiss my behind. And the beta never
did crash, back then I used it to see which old games worked under XP (that
didn't work under Win2k). Quite a few, including but not limited to The
Neverhood and Need For Speed 4. Wonderful.
The one downside to XP is that it's not exactly free, but hey, you get what
you pay for, and this applies to Linux, too.
"Adam Jones" <ad...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9t0qap$phv$1...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk...
Benjamin D. Hutchins
>If you haven't used Windows since the days when you had to do /that/
>(win98?) then you really are in no position to talk.
[lots of wanking deleted]
Typical. You try to say something nice about something, and somebody
else uses it as the jumping-off point to rip on something else.
Usenet must be destroyed.
--G.
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
Adam Jones <ad...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In a futile gesture against entropy, Benjamin D. Hutchins wrote:
>[WinXP]
>> I like the refinements to the interface, the zippier startup/shutdown,
>> the not having to reboot if I want to change my IP address
>
><snigger>
>
>So it no longer reinstalls the entire networking subsystem from the CD
>(up to and including telnet.exe) every time you make a minor change to
>your networking parameters? Woohoo! :)
>
>(La la la <cough>ifconfig<cough> la la la)
>
>As a distinct point, I still want to know how someone can produce a
>(supposedly) microkernel-based OS which requires rebooting for things
>like this... surely just killing and restarting the TCP/IP process
>would work. Freakish idea, I know... ;)
My thoughts exactly. And while I'm M$-bashing, I don't remember EVER
having to do anything special to reconfigure the IP address on a Mac.
I mean, in 1993 when MacTCP came out, I seem to remember you could
open the control panel, change absolutely everything, and it just
happened. No reboot, no media necesssary, etc. Bang, it's done. Why,
why, is that so goddamn hard for M$ to figure out? Every OTHER popular
OS seems to have gotten it. Reminds me of an old joke, "How many
M$ programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? - None, M$ just
declares darkness the new standard."
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
"I don't drink Pepsi. I hate the way it represents the next generation of smiling people. Now Coke, it even sounds like a narcotic. Plus, it has fascist coloring. You really have to bow to Coca-Cola." --Marilyn Manson
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
Will <wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com> wrote:
>If you haven't used Windows since the days when you had to do /that/
>(win98?) then you really are in no position to talk. Windows 2000 was
>probably the best OS created (albeit with a few flaws) and Windows XP has
>all which 2000 didn't have. Games which 2k wouldn't run now run, and this
>brand new Logitech Wingman Momo Force Feedback steering wheel I just got
>worked under XP right out of the box - although to get force feedback, I had
>to download an app from Logitech, then it worked - no reboot required. Try
>doing that under any of the *nixes .. in fact, you'd be happy to get a USB
>keyboard working under *nix.
That's because hardware manufacturers don't provide drivers, and most
of the bastards won't even provide specs so the Linux people could write
drivers for them. This isn't Linux's fault. The manufacturers are being very
dumb for no reason that I can see. What, they DON'T want other people to
write their software for free, to help expand their market? Huh?
>As for changing my IP, I haven't needed that for some time now.
You're lucky. I've had to do it quite a bit in the last couple of
weeks on my roomie's computer as I'm getting our cable-modem working right.
I can't tell you how incredibly annoying having to insert the st00pid
Windoze CD is every time I want to change a netmask.
>But I don't recall ever having to reboot to do that under Windows 2000
>or later.
I have no idea, I haven't used those. They're based on the NT codebase,
right? I could see them not requiring a reboot. NT isn't great, but it's
miles better than Win9X.
>And before you go whining about "*nix is more stable", my Win2k hardly ever
>crashed (although flaky 3rd party drivers and apps did cause a few crashes,
>nothing too serious, usually not requiring reboot) and WinXP has yet to.
WinXP hasn't been out long yet; better reserve judgement. I wouldn't say
that Doze is necessarily "unstable," but it does take a lot more rebooting
than most 'Nixen. I have yet to be forced to reboot my Linux box when I
didn't want to, and I've had it for going on six years now. My uptime record
is something like 150 days - aka 5 months. Then I bought a new video card
and had to shut down to install it. I was bummed out; I wanted to hit 200.
I'm sure I could have if I wasn't so eager to have GL-accelerated graphics.
But no, I had to have my QuakeII...
Now, I *dare* you to show me any Windoze box anywhere that gets used
daily by it's owner (as my Linux box does) and has been up for 150 days
straight. Double-dog dare, man!
And if you _really_ wanna get into the uptime dick-wars, I've heard
stories of Sun NFS servers, fairly loaded, being up for 700+ days...
>As for security, I have yet to be infected by a virus under XP, even though
>I recieve a ton of nimda/sircam e-mails each day (Outlook XP filters them
>out). I'm running Internet Explorer 6, and of course, I've downloaded all
>necessary security updates from Microsoft.
XP is young yet. I am fully expecting there will be plenty of
sploits - if only because there will be many stupid people who own XP
boxes and will screw up any kind of good default security. 'Nix has this
failing too - there's no protection from (ab)user idiocy.
>At the last LAN party I was at,
>one guy tried to hack my computer but failed miserably. He did manage to
>r00t a linux box though, but I'm thinking that was mostly luck (easy to
>guess rootpass, probably).
Nah, probably the guy was running RedLightDistrict, er, RedHat. I really
think most Linux distros these days ship with utterly braindead security.
How many people *need* a mail daemon running out of the box? Like, nobody!
And those who need one should be able to set it up themselves from scratch,
or else no way in hell are they going to be able to tweak it and get it
working. Sendmail is eeeevil. And Redhat is the worst offender when it comes
to unnecessary crap. Every flippin' portmap or standalone service under the
sun enabled by default. Maybe even that particularly odious "remote
administration" daemon. Aka the "come and fuck me harder!" daemon. Jeesus.
Who thought THAT was a good idea? And not a one of these stupid things in
a chroot() jail by default! For about the last year, my firm stance has
been - "People who run RedHat deserve what they get." I'm considering
amending it to: "People who run RedHat RICHLY deserve what they get."...
(The same is true of 'Doze, of course - it's just that with 'Doze,
everyone knows it already. Many haven't caught on about RedHat yet.)
>I also have yet to find any of the horrible
>privacy violations which everyone is moaning about - no, Windows Media
>Player does not prohibit me from playing or making MP3s. No, activation did
>not alert Microsoft to the huge amount of anime and warez on my hard drive.
It's a creeping thing. It won't start out big. And maybe they'll never
manage it fully. As long as people have compilers, it's going to be very hard
for M$ to completely control content.
>The other day, I made an attempt to install Linux-Mandrake 8 on an old
>computer, containing nothing but plain old legacy parts (PCI graphics card,
>pentium 200 processor, 4 gig hard drive). After finishing the install
>process (default settings) linux hung on bootup, allegedly because it
>couldn't find my DHCP server. Having disabled DHCP, it hung at the logon
>screen, having first failed to start KDE. Apparently my graphics card was
>too advanced for poor tux, it was made in 1995 after all.
Mandrake is RedHat based. I'm not surprised.
>Fdisked and formatted (Linux is harder to get rid of than Win2k!),
Nah, now I'm going to have to call you. Seriously, if booting off a
clean floppy and doing an "fdisk /mbr" (or Linux equivalent) doesn't
wipe absolutely *everything* (Linux, Doze, whatever) on your hard disk,
I'll eat the first page of my Camel book.
>chucked in a WinXP beta disk, installed and two hours (spent copying the
>files .. 4x cd-rom, ugh) it's surfing the web and playing MP3's, and doing
>so quite a bit faster than Win2k Server (which was installed before I tried
>Linux). Note that this was a BETA Windows XP. And it still worked better on
>standard settings than Mandrake 8 did. Linux can kiss my behind.
If you just want it to work and don't give a shit, definitely go with
Windoze. I'm very, very happy to be in an obscure minority who are OS
sophisticates and connoisseurs - even snobs. People who look at their computer
as merely a tool SHOULD run 'Doze. But, I don't wanna hear those people
bitching about instability, moronic restrictions, goofy office assistants,
etc. They made their own bed, they should have to lie in it. I have no
sympathy. (And they in turn have no sympathy for me when I bitch about
drivers - which is perfectly fair.)
The only thing more that I want right now that Linux doesn't have is for
manufacturers to make drivers - or at least release specs so I can. And
maybe a couple more particular games would be nice, too. They'll *never*
release Aliens vs. Predator for Linux, for example. That game's a lot
of fun in multi-player.
>The one downside to XP is that it's not exactly free, but hey, you get what
>you pay for, and this applies to Linux, too.
As Zawinsky said, "Linux is only free if your time has no value." I've
generally found it's worth the time investment for me. But then, I'm a
control freak. I want to be able to twiddle the bits. I want to write my
own drivers. And I have no qualms admitting it, and being an elitist
Linux bigot and telling non-tech-heads to go use Doze.
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
"Ad nauseum" is practically my motto... -Sarah Davis
Robyn, Duke of Amber
Hey now...
you don't want to be called a "cyber-terrorist" like some other Ben's
that post here. (insert obligatory sniggering -emote-icon here )
(is there one for sniggering?)
bah!
I actully like 2000 but it did't like my DVD player.. (memory
alocation problem...or lack theirof.) which is why it was only on my comp
for the time it took to try various hardware and software
configs before I sighed and went to 98.
Neil
On 15 Nov 2001, Benjamin D. Hutchins wrote:
>
> Typical. You try to say something nice about something, and somebody
> else uses it as the jumping-off point to rip on something else.
>
> Usenet must be destroyed.
>
> --G.
> --
SkyKnight
>[lots of wanking deleted]
>
>Typical. You try to say something nice about something, and somebody
>else uses it as the jumping-off point to rip on something else.
>
>Usenet must be destroyed.
Nah...it has its uses.. I just ignore the noise coming from under the
rocks. ;)
=====================================================
Bert Van Vliet, Skyk...@sentex.net
[http://www.jurai.net/~skyknght/index.html]
[http://www.bgcrisis.com ]
Die-hard BGC fan and aspiring Knight-in-shining-hi-tech armour
"Politics is a form of religion; it's the worship of jackals by jackasses."
-H.L. Mencken
SkyKnight
[Drivers being driven by?]
> That's because hardware manufacturers don't provide drivers, and most
>of the bastards won't even provide specs so the Linux people could write
>drivers for them. This isn't Linux's fault. The manufacturers are being very
>dumb for no reason that I can see. What, they DON'T want other people to
>write their software for free, to help expand their market? Huh?
True, if you don't have the specs you can't really write anything for
it. What has kept me from ever considering Linux or anything at home
is the simple fact that all my software requires Windows in order to
work. Over the years I've spent too much on DOS-compatible (Yes, I
still have DOS 6.22 installed here....works great for my older games.
^_^ ) and Windows-compatible software to really make changing
platforms even remotely feasible.
>>As for changing my IP, I haven't needed that for some time now.
>
> You're lucky. I've had to do it quite a bit in the last couple of
>weeks on my roomie's computer as I'm getting our cable-modem working right.
>I can't tell you how incredibly annoying having to insert the st00pid
>Windoze CD is every time I want to change a netmask.
Really? Which version are you running, Ben? NT4.0 Service Pack 6
altered some of the TCP/IP stack such that you didn't need to reboot
and re-insert anything just for changing an IP address; Win2K does the
same, and I assume XP does as well, although I haven't used it yet.
Oh, and if you've got the space on your harddrive, a nifty skip-the-cd
trick I've always used is to copy the 'i386' directory from the CD to
your main harddrive. The next time it asks for the CD, you direct it
to the directory. From that point on, you won't have to hunt for the
CD. :)
>>But I don't recall ever having to reboot to do that under Windows 2000
>>or later.
>
> I have no idea, I haven't used those. They're based on the NT codebase,
>right? I could see them not requiring a reboot. NT isn't great, but it's
>miles better than Win9X.
See above. Win2K doesn't have to reboot quite as many times as NT4
does, and I assume XP is in the same ballpark. And yes, NT4, Win2K,
and XP are all built on the same codebase.
My own personal gripe is this: instead of making each successive
version of the OS take up terabytes more than the previous version,
why don't they surprise us and optimize things so that the OS takes up
LESS space?
> WinXP hasn't been out long yet; better reserve judgement. I wouldn't say
>that Doze is necessarily "unstable," but it does take a lot more rebooting
>than most 'Nixen. I have yet to be forced to reboot my Linux box when I
>didn't want to, and I've had it for going on six years now. My uptime record
>is something like 150 days - aka 5 months. Then I bought a new video card
>and had to shut down to install it. I was bummed out; I wanted to hit 200.
>I'm sure I could have if I wasn't so eager to have GL-accelerated graphics.
It all depends on what you're doing with it. I've had NT boxes stay
stable for months if they're just going through 'general use'. It's
when you start installing/uninstalling programs, peripherals and such
stuff that you start shooting craps with system stability. And it
gets even MORE unstable if you happen to be in an evironment where
developers are playing with things. ^_^
I generally have the biggest problems with NT Server systems and
network cards, especially if you're trying to set up hardware from
certain manufacturers - usually it's an IRQ conflict, and then it
blue-screens and blows everything out of the water. Then it's back to
square one, usually. :P
>But no, I had to have my QuakeII...
LOL!!! Ah yes, we all have our vices. ^_^
> Now, I *dare* you to show me any Windoze box anywhere that gets used
>daily by it's owner (as my Linux box does) and has been up for 150 days
>straight. Double-dog dare, man!
Ummm......well, if it wasn't for my habit of blowing away my
installations and doing clean installs every four months or so, I
could probably take you up on that. ^_^
> And if you _really_ wanna get into the uptime dick-wars, I've heard
>stories of Sun NFS servers, fairly loaded, being up for 700+ days...
Nah, I don't need to go there. ^_^
[Viruses]
> XP is young yet. I am fully expecting there will be plenty of
>sploits - if only because there will be many stupid people who own XP
>boxes and will screw up any kind of good default security. 'Nix has this
>failing too - there's no protection from (ab)user idiocy.
All too true. The last company I worked at, we had all the possible
antivirus tools you could get, and it didn't matter because the users
on the network kept re-infecting the server from their own private
files or email. Since we weren't allowed to boot them out of the
network for rank stupidity, we had to grit our teeth and bear it. ^_^
As for XP....I follow a general rule for all things Microsoft: wait
for the first couple of service packs. THEN you can probably use it.
^_^
[Unix security?]
> Nah, probably the guy was running RedLightDistrict, er, RedHat. I really
<SNIP>
>been - "People who run RedHat deserve what they get." I'm considering
>amending it to: "People who run RedHat RICHLY deserve what they get."...
>(The same is true of 'Doze, of course - it's just that with 'Doze,
>everyone knows it already. Many haven't caught on about RedHat yet.)
Come on, Ben, don't hold back! Tell us what you REALLY feel!! >;)
[Activation]
> It's a creeping thing. It won't start out big. And maybe they'll never
>manage it fully. As long as people have compilers, it's going to be very hard
>for M$ to completely control content.
Yup. Someday they may realize this.....
Nah. ^_^
[Choice of OS...]
<SNIP>
> As Zawinsky said, "Linux is only free if your time has no value." I've
>generally found it's worth the time investment for me. But then, I'm a
>control freak. I want to be able to twiddle the bits. I want to write my
>own drivers. And I have no qualms admitting it, and being an elitist
>Linux bigot and telling non-tech-heads to go use Doze.
Gee, I never would've guessed! I'm shocked, Ben! ;]
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
SkyKnight <skyk...@sentex.net> wrote:
>> You're lucky. I've had to do it quite a bit in the last couple of
>>weeks on my roomie's computer as I'm getting our cable-modem working right.
>>I can't tell you how incredibly annoying having to insert the st00pid
>>Windoze CD is every time I want to change a netmask.
>
>Really? Which version are you running, Ben? NT4.0 Service Pack 6
>altered some of the TCP/IP stack such that you didn't need to reboot
>and re-insert anything just for changing an IP address; Win2K does the
>same, and I assume XP does as well, although I haven't used it yet.
Not me, my roommate. I'm da Linux bigot, remember. It's Win98 SE,
or at least that's what the boot-up screen says. I need to find my
"Satanic Windoze v.666" BMP file and copy it over logo.sys...
>Oh, and if you've got the space on your harddrive, a nifty skip-the-cd
>trick I've always used is to copy the 'i386' directory from the CD to
>your main harddrive. The next time it asks for the CD, you direct it
>to the directory. From that point on, you won't have to hunt for the
>CD. :)
Oh, kewl trick. Gotta try that. Even if it takes an hour to copy that
directory tree, it'll pay for itself the next three times I have to putz
with the network settings.
>[Unix security?]
>> Nah, probably the guy was running RedLightDistrict, er, RedHat. I really
><SNIP>
>>been - "People who run RedHat deserve what they get." I'm considering
>>amending it to: "People who run RedHat RICHLY deserve what they get."...
>>(The same is true of 'Doze, of course - it's just that with 'Doze,
>>everyone knows it already. Many haven't caught on about RedHat yet.)
>
>Come on, Ben, don't hold back! Tell us what you REALLY feel!! >;)
Well, I wouldn't want to wear my heart on my sleeve. ;]
>> As Zawinsky said, "Linux is only free if your time has no value." I've
>>generally found it's worth the time investment for me. But then, I'm a
>>control freak. I want to be able to twiddle the bits. I want to write my
>>own drivers. And I have no qualms admitting it, and being an elitist
>>Linux bigot and telling non-tech-heads to go use Doze.
>
>Gee, I never would've guessed! I'm shocked, Ben! ;]
Well, I wouldn't want to wear my heart on my sleeve... ;] ;] ;]
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
"Technically, are women's birthday suits considered double-breasted?" -Willie B.
Will
message news:9t1589$f...@flatland.dimensional.com...
> That's because hardware manufacturers don't provide drivers, and most
> of the bastards won't even provide specs so the Linux people could write
> drivers for them. This isn't Linux's fault. The manufacturers are being
very
> dumb for no reason that I can see. What, they DON'T want other people to
> write their software for free, to help expand their market? Huh?
While simply releasing the specs might be a good idea, most companies
consider these "trade secrets", for some reason. As for making drivers,
there's just too few people using anything but Windows to merit spending
cash on making drivers - the potential profit is too tiny, and companies
only think in dollars and pounds sterling. Also, if someone makes their own
drivers for a product, and those drivers do something stupid (aka not work
or crash the system) then who's going to be blamed? Users who don't have the
brains to realize that product manufacturer != driver manufacturer will call
the company whose logo is on the "broken" product and WHINE. Companies don't
like that. And yes, there are stupid Linux users aplenty, now that Linux has
become so "hip" and "cool".
If you doubt this, look at this log - I'll vouch for its authenticity:
http://194.236.93.236/john_dumbass.txt
> >But I don't recall ever having to reboot to do that under Windows 2000
> >or later.
>
> I have no idea, I haven't used those. They're based on the NT codebase,
> right? I could see them not requiring a reboot. NT isn't great, but it's
> miles better than Win9X.
2000 is based on NT, but veeery loosely. It's underworkings are "using NT
technology" but the shell is Win98's look-and-feel with a few enhancements,
mainly stability. WinXP is the 2000 core with some improvements (such as
compatibility) with a brand new interface (which looks pretty much like the
own except with prettier colours).
> WinXP hasn't been out long yet; better reserve judgement. I wouldn't say
> that Doze is necessarily "unstable," but it does take a lot more rebooting
> than most 'Nixen. I have yet to be forced to reboot my Linux box when I
> didn't want to, and I've had it for going on six years now. My uptime
record
> is something like 150 days - aka 5 months. Then I bought a new video card
> and had to shut down to install it. I was bummed out; I wanted to hit 200.
> I'm sure I could have if I wasn't so eager to have GL-accelerated
graphics.
> But no, I had to have my QuakeII...
I really fail to see the importance of uptime on a desktop system - on a
server it's important (for reliability) but on a desktop system, isn't the
most important thing stability and performance _in_between_ reboots? I won't
claim that Windows boxes acieve higher uptimes than *nix ones, I'm just
saying they don't necessarily _crash_ just because they _reboot_. I will
claim that uptime is just something to show off with, which doesn't really
say anything about system stability (just like the frequency of the CPU
doesn't really say anything about performance)
> Now, I *dare* you to show me any Windoze box anywhere that gets used
> daily by it's owner (as my Linux box does) and has been up for 150 days
> straight. Double-dog dare, man!
I don't keep track of 'puters with long uptimes so I'd have to go find one
(which I can't be arsed to) but I will show you my very own Windows 2000
box - it's a server, yes, but I do use it daily.
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=as1-5-1.ulr.s.bonet.se&mode_u=on&mo
de_w=on&avg_days=360&submit=Redisplay+Graph
My record on that one is 65 days. No crashes EVER. Just reboots to install
security updates or because I pulled the wrong plug.
On Windows 95, my record is ~90 days. Used daily (Office 2000, Internet
Explorer and mIRC only - it was my work PC).
> For about the last year, my firm stance has
> been - "People who run RedHat deserve what they get." I'm considering
> amending it to: "People who run RedHat RICHLY deserve what they get."...
> (The same is true of 'Doze, of course - it's just that with 'Doze,
> everyone knows it already. Many haven't caught on about RedHat yet.)
I'll keep that in mind the next time I decide to try and set up a Linux bux.
> >I also have yet to find any of the horrible
> >privacy violations which everyone is moaning about - no, Windows Media
> >Player does not prohibit me from playing or making MP3s. No, activation
did
> >not alert Microsoft to the huge amount of anime and warez on my hard
drive.
>
> It's a creeping thing. It won't start out big. And maybe they'll never
> manage it fully. As long as people have compilers, it's going to be very
hard
> for M$ to completely control content.
Microsoft won't do anything to seriously piss off customers as long as Linux
remains a threat. They're not that stupid. Implement something in the OS to
keep people from trading music, videos, whatever, and people will move to
Linux by the tens of thousands.
> >Fdisked and formatted (Linux is harder to get rid of than Win2k!),
>
> Nah, now I'm going to have to call you. Seriously, if booting off a
> clean floppy and doing an "fdisk /mbr" (or Linux equivalent) doesn't
> wipe absolutely *everything* (Linux, Doze, whatever) on your hard disk,
> I'll eat the first page of my Camel book.
It does. But I only said removing Win2k is _easier_. Just format the drive,
no need to fdisk, unless you're using NTFS of course.
> >you pay for, and this applies to Linux, too.
>
> As Zawinsky said, "Linux is only free if your time has no value." I've
> generally found it's worth the time investment for me. But then, I'm a
> control freak. I want to be able to twiddle the bits. I want to write my
> own drivers. And I have no qualms admitting it, and being an elitist
> Linux bigot and telling non-tech-heads to go use Doze.
There's more "twiddling the bits" available in WinXP than I ever think I'll
need. And nothing's keeping one from writing his or her own drivers in XP ..
it's just that most of the time, you really, really, really don't have to.
Non-tech-heads _should_ use Windows, but that doesn't mean techheads like
myself (and you, I presume) _shouldn't_,
Also this elitism which you speak of, which is everywhere in the Linux
community, and the widespread idea that Microsoft is "evil" no matter what
they do, GETS ON MY F**ING TITS. Most of the Linux community, in my
experience, are either lame 5kr1pt k1dd1es or wannabe anarchists who are too
narrow-minded to listen to anything but what they want to hear. And most of
them will ruthlessly flame anyone who says they like Windows, no matter for
what reason. I'm reminded of the taliban soldiers, so hell-bent on believing
the bullshit propaganda they'd been raised with they actually thought they
were invincible to american bullets until it was too late. Okay, bad analogy
(Linux users are neither killers nor very stupid, and most aren't muslims),
but it did spring into my mind when I wrote this.
I thought I'd finish up with a brief list of all the apps and games which
are keeping me with Windows until they are released for Linux (I know there
are Linux replacements for some of them but in general those replacements
suck, in my experience):
Microsoft Office XP (most notably PowerPoint and FrontPage. before you dis
FP, keep in mind that TPoNc was built with it, heh)
Internet Explorer
Paint Shop Pro 7
Windows Media Player (it sounds better than Winamp due to the SRS tech which
Microsoft has licensed. alternatives produce inferior sound.)
Need For Speed 5
Civilization III
Klient (IRC client. www.klient.com)
When Linux has drivers for a system I purchased "yesterday" _out_of_the_box_
(or out-of-the-ISO), will run all popular PC games/apps, has as efficient a
method of delivering security updates as Windows (Windows Update) and has a
user-friendly interface (this includes never ever ever having to use the
console, or type in text commands), I will happily switch, unless Microsoft
has a product which does all that but better.
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
Will <wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com> wrote:
>While simply releasing the specs might be a good idea, most companies
>consider these "trade secrets", for some reason.
Yeah. In short, they're being dumb for no good reason.
>As for making drivers,
>there's just too few people using anything but Windows to merit spending
>cash on making drivers - the potential profit is too tiny, and companies
>only think in dollars and pounds sterling.
I love this argument because it's a self-perpetuating cycle. Why are
there no Linux users? No drivers. Why are there no drivers? Not nearly
enough users to justify them.
I'm not asking companies to write drivers for a tenny fraction of the
userbase, but they could at least give me enough info to do it for them.
But they won't even usually give us that. Annoying, it is.
>Also, if someone makes their own
>drivers for a product, and those drivers do something stupid (aka not work
>or crash the system) then who's going to be blamed? Users who don't have the
>brains to realize that product manufacturer != driver manufacturer will call
>the company whose logo is on the "broken" product and WHINE. Companies don't
>like that. And yes, there are stupid Linux users aplenty, now that Linux has
>become so "hip" and "cool".
>
>If you doubt this, look at this log - I'll vouch for its authenticity:
>http://194.236.93.236/john_dumbass.txt
Oh no, I believe you. The trick, I think, is to make sure that any 3rd
party driver for Linux has to be downloaded off a third-party site. That
way, the dumbassen will bitch at the person who wrote the patch. Which is
as it should be.
>I really fail to see the importance of uptime on a desktop system - on a
>server it's important (for reliability) but on a desktop system, isn't the
>most important thing stability and performance _in_between_ reboots? I won't
>claim that Windows boxes acieve higher uptimes than *nix ones, I'm just
>saying they don't necessarily _crash_ just because they _reboot_. I will
>claim that uptime is just something to show off with, which doesn't really
>say anything about system stability (just like the frequency of the CPU
>doesn't really say anything about performance)
Well, I'd argue with your last point a bit. I think that uptime/clock speed
does reflect reliability/performance in a fuzzy, generic kind of way. Not
an absolutely measure, and you have to be careful because there are always
exceptions. But when you get to double/triple/order of magnitude type of
comparisons, you can be fairly sure you're seeing something.
As for the reboot thing, fair enough. I think my beef is that it seems
like the Windozen I've used require reboots for the dumbest things - like
changing an IP address. If they eliminate that, I'm happy. I'm not holding
my breath, though.
>> Now, I *dare* you to show me any Windoze box anywhere that gets used
>> daily by it's owner (as my Linux box does) and has been up for 150 days
>> straight. Double-dog dare, man!
>
>I don't keep track of 'puters with long uptimes so I'd have to go find one
>(which I can't be arsed to) but I will show you my very own Windows 2000
>box - it's a server, yes, but I do use it daily.
>
>http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=as1-5-1.ulr.s.bonet.se&mode_u=on&mo
>de_w=on&avg_days=360&submit=Redisplay+Graph
>
>My record on that one is 65 days. No crashes EVER. Just reboots to install
>security updates or because I pulled the wrong plug.
>On Windows 95, my record is ~90 days. Used daily (Office 2000, Internet
>Explorer and mIRC only - it was my work PC).
I am floored that you got a 95 box to stay up 90 days. Wasn't 95 the
one that would freeze up at 48 days due to a glitch in the timer tick code?
Or was that 98?
>Microsoft won't do anything to seriously piss off customers as long as Linux
>remains a threat.
The question, of course, is how long...
>They're not that stupid.
I wouldn't put anything past 'em. After they lied in court and falsified
evidence at the anti-trust trial, I have no faith left whatsoever.
>Implement something in the OS to
>keep people from trading music, videos, whatever, and people will move to
>Linux by the tens of thousands.
I doubt it, honestly. They'll just get hackware to screw with the
guts of their 'Doze box.
>> >Fdisked and formatted (Linux is harder to get rid of than Win2k!),
>>
>> Nah, now I'm going to have to call you. Seriously, if booting off a
>> clean floppy and doing an "fdisk /mbr" (or Linux equivalent) doesn't
>> wipe absolutely *everything* (Linux, Doze, whatever) on your hard disk,
>> I'll eat the first page of my Camel book.
>
>It does. But I only said removing Win2k is _easier_. Just format the drive,
>no need to fdisk, unless you're using NTFS of course.
True enough. It is one extra command. Well, or one different command,
depending on how you want to look at it. If you're wiping the MBR you
don't strictly need to format the data areas of the drive first.
>> As Zawinsky said, "Linux is only free if your time has no value." I've
>> generally found it's worth the time investment for me. But then, I'm a
>> control freak. I want to be able to twiddle the bits. I want to write my
>> own drivers. And I have no qualms admitting it, and being an elitist
>> Linux bigot and telling non-tech-heads to go use Doze.
>
>There's more "twiddling the bits" available in WinXP than I ever think I'll
>need. And nothing's keeping one from writing his or her own drivers in XP ..
Just money. That, and M$ will probably make you sign a non-disclosure
before they'll sell you an SDK capable of developing drivers.
>it's just that most of the time, you really, really, really don't have to.
>Non-tech-heads _should_ use Windows, but that doesn't mean techheads like
>myself (and you, I presume) _shouldn't_,
I agree. But for me, it's the right choice.
>Also this elitism which you speak of, which is everywhere in the Linux
>community, and the widespread idea that Microsoft is "evil" no matter what
>they do, GETS ON MY F**ING TITS. Most of the Linux community, in my
>experience, are either lame 5kr1pt k1dd1es or wannabe anarchists who are too
>narrow-minded to listen to anything but what they want to hear. And most of
>them will ruthlessly flame anyone who says they like Windows, no matter for
>what reason. I'm reminded of the taliban soldiers, so hell-bent on believing
>the bullshit propaganda they'd been raised with they actually thought they
>were invincible to american bullets until it was too late. Okay, bad analogy
>(Linux users are neither killers nor very stupid, and most aren't muslims),
>but it did spring into my mind when I wrote this.
No argument here. I wish more Linux users would be upfront about their
prejudices. We have our justifications, I think, but ultimately this really
is a religious war. OSes are a case of "pick your poison." There are no
good ones, they all suck. The only question is, which suck *less*.
>I thought I'd finish up with a brief list of all the apps and games which
>are keeping me with Windows until they are released for Linux (I know there
>are Linux replacements for some of them but in general those replacements
>suck, in my experience):
>
>Microsoft Office XP (most notably PowerPoint and FrontPage. before you dis
>FP, keep in mind that TPoNc was built with it, heh)
I loathe all HTML makers with a passion. I write all my HTML by hand.
It's slower, but I can't be saddled with stupid tags or bound to any
particular broswer that way. As for the rest of it, I know StarOffice
isn't as pretty, but it gets the job done well enough. And it reads
(almost all) Word DOCs.
>Internet Explorer
They have Netscape and Mozilla for Linux. IE annoys me because it doesn't
stop rendering when I hit ESC or "Stop." When I say "stop" I mean "fucking
stop it right now, you stupid piece of bloatware!" Gr! (Told you I was
a control freak.)
>Paint Shop Pro 7
I doubt the GIMP measures up in feature richness, but it is a half-decent
paint program for Linux.
>Windows Media Player (it sounds better than Winamp due to the SRS tech which
>Microsoft has licensed. alternatives produce inferior sound.)
WMP is an interesting case. M$ has done their usual "we're making our
own proprietary formats every 2 years that nobody else is allowed to use!
Nyeah!" If they would open up their formats, Linux could play everything
Doze does. As it is, we in the Linux community have to take lots of time
to reverse-engineer the protocols. BTW, Ogg Vorbis is suppose to be kicking
the living crap out of everything else in hearing tests.
>Need For Speed 5
>Civilization III
No disagreement here; I want more games for Linux, damnit. Linux really
falls down in this respect.
>Klient (IRC client. www.klient.com)
Haven't tried it, so I don't know what it's like. I know there's at
least one graphical IRC client for X. (Not that I use it...)
>When Linux has drivers for a system I purchased "yesterday" _out_of_the_box_
>(or out-of-the-ISO), will run all popular PC games/apps, has as efficient a
>method of delivering security updates as Windows (Windows Update) and has a
>user-friendly interface (this includes never ever ever having to use the
>console, or type in text commands), I will happily switch, unless Microsoft
>has a product which does all that but better.
If that day comes, I'm fairly sure it will be because Linux has become
as bad as 'Doze. I doubt I'll still be using Linux then.
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
Dr. Raven
wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com somehow managed to send the following on 11/15/01
1:51 PM into the future to my computer in MegaTokyo in the year 2033:
> If you haven't used Windows since the days when you had to do /that/
> (win98?) then you really are in no position to talk. Windows 2000 was
> probably the best OS created (albeit with a few flaws) and Windows XP has
OK, let's not go here because this is really not the forum for an OS debate.
Besides, there are operating systems out there that many people here have
probably never heard of that blow away consumer-targeted operating systems
like Windows, so it's pretty easy to dispute your claim that Windows 2000 is
the best OS created. You can try claiming it's the best *consumer* OS
created, but even then I still couldn't agree with you ;)
Dr. Raven
--
Raven's Garage & Fanfics
www.ravensgarage.com
Dr. Raven
Cantrick at mackys...@dim.com somehow managed to send the following on
11/15/01 1:58 PM into the future to my computer in MegaTokyo in the year
2033:
> In article <9t0qap$phv$1...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk>,
> Adam Jones <ad...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In a futile gesture against entropy, Benjamin D. Hutchins wrote:
>> [WinXP]
>>> I like the refinements to the interface, the zippier startup/shutdown,
>>> the not having to reboot if I want to change my IP address
>>
>> <snigger>
>>
>> So it no longer reinstalls the entire networking subsystem from the CD
>> (up to and including telnet.exe) every time you make a minor change to
>> your networking parameters? Woohoo! :)
>>
>> (La la la <cough>ifconfig<cough> la la la)
>>
>> As a distinct point, I still want to know how someone can produce a
>> (supposedly) microkernel-based OS which requires rebooting for things
>> like this... surely just killing and restarting the TCP/IP process
>> would work. Freakish idea, I know... ;)
>
> My thoughts exactly. And while I'm M$-bashing, I don't remember EVER
> having to do anything special to reconfigure the IP address on a Mac.
> I mean, in 1993 when MacTCP came out, I seem to remember you could
> open the control panel, change absolutely everything, and it just
> happened. No reboot, no media necesssary, etc. Bang, it's done. Why,
> why, is that so goddamn hard for M$ to figure out? Every OTHER popular
> OS seems to have gotten it. Reminds me of an old joke, "How many
> M$ programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? - None, M$ just
> declares darkness the new standard."
Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X are still like that.
Dr.Raven
Dr. Raven
2033:
>> As for changing my IP, I haven't needed that for some time now.
>
> You're lucky. I've had to do it quite a bit in the last couple of
> weeks on my roomie's computer as I'm getting our cable-modem working right.
> I can't tell you how incredibly annoying having to insert the st00pid
> Windoze CD is every time I want to change a netmask.
So don't :) Copy the Windows CD to a folder called CABS to hold all the .CAB
cabinet files. Then when you need something off the CD just point to the
C:\CABS folder.
In fact, for the ultimate in "never-need-the-CD" tricks, during the install
process of Windows 9.x, copy the .CAB files on the Windows CD to a folder
called C:\CABS on your freshly formatted HDD, then remove the CD and run the
install itself from that folder. Not only will the install be faster, the
registry will record the install path of Windows as C:\CABS so anytime you
need files from the Windows CD in the future you won't even have to point to
the C:\CABS folder at all. Windows will already know and will grab the files
before you can say "Fatal Exception!"
>> And before you go whining about "*nix is more stable", my Win2k hardly ever
>> crashed (although flaky 3rd party drivers and apps did cause a few crashes,
>> nothing too serious, usually not requiring reboot) and WinXP has yet to.
Bad drivers are the main cause of instability in any system. A Windows base
install without any specific drivers will be very stable. Not very usable
though, especially if you want to play any 3D games ;)
> Now, I *dare* you to show me any Windoze box anywhere that gets used
> daily by it's owner (as my Linux box does) and has been up for 150 days
> straight. Double-dog dare, man!
Probably lots of server owners could vouch, but that doesn't really count ;)
> Nah, probably the guy was running RedLightDistrict, er, RedHat. I really
> think most Linux distros these days ship with utterly braindead security.
> How many people *need* a mail daemon running out of the box? Like, nobody!
> And those who need one should be able to set it up themselves from scratch,
> or else no way in hell are they going to be able to tweak it and get it
> working. Sendmail is eeeevil. And Redhat is the worst offender when it comes
>_< Sendmail... It *should* be simple...
TheG0dThatFailed
Hmmmmm.......
When i have time, I certainly will.
Don't suppose you'd be kind enough to sum up?
I was actually pointed in grc's direction by a fairly descent sys admin I
know....
^v^ Dan ^v^
TheG0dThatFailed
:::massive snippage:::
>I also have yet to find any of the horrible
>privacy violations which everyone is moaning about -
:::massive snippage:::
I'm not going to bother to get in on any of the rest of this, as other's are
doing it quite well for me (yes I support our local cyber-terrorist)
But as for the privacy violations....
I'm not sure if it's in winXP
but I do know it exists in 98 and 2000me
clean out all your temporary internet files (delete them, clean them out with
the option in IE, whatever, just do it)
go into windows explorer
right click on your "c:/windows/temporary internet files" directory
click on "properties" in the menu that pops up
that supposedly empty folder takes up a helluva lot of space doesn't it?
there's a file in there, you can't see it in windows, you can't see it from the
DOS prompt in windows, in fact, the only way to see it is to go in from outside
: by using a DOS boot disk.
the DOS path should be c:\windows\tempor~1
there will be a file in there called index.dat
go ahead, use the DOS edit command on it to take a look inside
now THERE's a fucking privacy violation if I've ever seen one.
^v^ dan ^v^
TheG0dThatFailed
I know, bad form, but I have to correct my own errors, ne?
>>From: "Will" wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com
>
>:::massive snippage:::
>
>>I also have yet to find any of the horrible
>>privacy violations which everyone is moaning about -
>
>:::massive snippage:::
>
>I'm not going to bother to get in on any of the rest of this, as other's are
>doing it quite well for me (yes I support our local cyber-terrorist)
>But as for the privacy violations....
>I'm not sure if it's in winXP
>but I do know it exists in 98 and 2000me
>clean out all your temporary internet files (delete them, clean them out with
>the option in IE, whatever, just do it)
>go into windows explorer
>right click on your "c:/windows/temporary internet files" directory
>click on "properties" in the menu that pops up
>that supposedly empty folder takes up a helluva lot of space doesn't it?
>there's a file in there, you can't see it in windows, you can't see it from
>the
>DOS prompt in windows
correction, you CAN see it from the DOS prompt in windows, you just can't DO
anything to it
, in fact, the only way to see it is to go in from
>outside
>: by using a DOS boot disk.
>the DOS path should be c:\windows\tempor~1
that's where it was in 98 IIRC
having just gone in to take a look at it on my new box that's running 2000me
it's in c:\windows\tempor~1\content.ie5
the damn thing is taking up 14 megs of fucking disk space here.... and it won't
let me look at it with the DOS 'edit' command (tells me "out of far memory"...
whatever that means). Tried copying it to another filename so I could open it
up in windows with another app... but it just comes up as jibberish... but I
KNOW what's there... and what isn't jibberish tells me it's still what it was
from 98...
Index.dat is a URL archive
It records _everywhere_ you go on the internet, and what you did there IIRC
from what I got to take a look at on my old 98 box.
Of course the damn file wasn't 14 megs on my old box either....
Point is, there's a secret file in there that Microsoft doesn't want you
looking at that serves no function whatsoever except to keep a tab on where
you've been.
^v^ Dan ^v^
m.r....@stir.ac.uk
Ben "The Cyber-Terrorist" Cantrick wrote:
> Now, I *dare* you to show me any Windoze box anywhere that gets used
> daily by it's owner (as my Linux box does) and has been up for 150 days
> straight. Double-dog dare, man!
Just did a quick scout around here. Nothing that's really in
'old man' territory because of upgrades and patch applications,
but our main MS Exchange server (handles mail for a couple of
thousand users) has been up for 148 days, and insn't likely to
get rebooted in the next two...
> Nah, now I'm going to have to call you. Seriously, if booting off a
> clean floppy and doing an "fdisk /mbr" (or Linux equivalent) doesn't
> wipe absolutely *everything* (Linux, Doze, whatever) on your hard disk,
I'll call you on that - 'fdisk /mbr' doesn't delete anything
apart from what was installed on the boot record - the partition
table, filesystem structures and data are all still there.
> I'll eat the first page of my Camel book.
Want somke ketchup with that?
--
Mike Quin <m.r....@stir.ac.uk> :: The only way out is to finish the game ::
Will
> Oh no, I believe you. The trick, I think, is to make sure that any 3rd
> party driver for Linux has to be downloaded off a third-party site. That
> way, the dumbassen will bitch at the person who wrote the patch. Which is
> as it should be.
This would work, except not every user will realize that the driver is the
cause of the problem (especially since Linux error messages have a tendency
to be just as cryptic as Windows BSODs) and will think their product is
"broken". Also, whoever wrote the patch is probably just some geek in a
basement with no time to play customer support, so whining at him won't
really help fix the problem - he's likely to fix any problems he encounters,
not go on a massive bughunt just because user X in Nevada can't get it
working.
> As for the reboot thing, fair enough. I think my beef is that it seems
> like the Windozen I've used require reboots for the dumbest things - like
> changing an IP address. If they eliminate that, I'm happy. I'm not holding
> my breath, though.
They've fixed it in WinXP - although it still requires reboots for security
updates, installing any piece of hardware which doesn't require opening the
computer case is perfectly reboot-free. Office XP installed without a single
reboot. So did this Logitech Force Feedback Wheel I just got. I can change
drive letters without having to reboot, as well.
> >My record on that one is 65 days. No crashes EVER. Just reboots to
install
> >security updates or because I pulled the wrong plug.
> >On Windows 95, my record is ~90 days. Used daily (Office 2000, Internet
> >Explorer and mIRC only - it was my work PC).
>
> I am floored that you got a 95 box to stay up 90 days. Wasn't 95 the
> one that would freeze up at 48 days due to a glitch in the timer tick
code?
> Or was that 98?
Not sure, but my 95 didn't freeze once. It was a Dell Optiplex something ..
Pentium III .. most stable 'puter I've ever used. However, it was a desktop
model, and it ran so hot it nearly kept my coffee warm when I placed the mug
by the warm air exhaust.
> I wouldn't put anything past 'em. After they lied in court and falsified
> evidence at the anti-trust trial, I have no faith left whatsoever.
The people who form Microsoft's legal team and administration are not the
same as the ones who write the software. It's easy to look at Microsoft as a
single entity but it's really a massive amount of people. Not all of them
are asses, quite the contrary (in my experience), and the developers are
quite often very nice chatting with - and having beta tested Microsoft
Visual Studio.NET, I've done a fair amount of chatting with them :)
> >> >Fdisked and formatted (Linux is harder to get rid of than Win2k!),
> >>
> >> Nah, now I'm going to have to call you. Seriously, if booting off a
> >> clean floppy and doing an "fdisk /mbr" (or Linux equivalent) doesn't
> >> wipe absolutely *everything* (Linux, Doze, whatever) on your hard disk,
> >> I'll eat the first page of my Camel book.
> >
> >It does. But I only said removing Win2k is _easier_. Just format the
drive,
> >no need to fdisk, unless you're using NTFS of course.
>
> True enough. It is one extra command. Well, or one different command,
> depending on how you want to look at it. If you're wiping the MBR you
> don't strictly need to format the data areas of the drive first.
Hang on now, Linux won't go away with _just_ fdisk /mbr. Especially if the
drives aren't FAT. You'd have to remove the Linux partitions, create new FAT
ones, and then format them. Takes a couple hours with 30+ gig disks.
> >There's more "twiddling the bits" available in WinXP than I ever think
I'll
> >need. And nothing's keeping one from writing his or her own drivers in XP
..
>
> Just money. That, and M$ will probably make you sign a non-disclosure
> before they'll sell you an SDK capable of developing drivers.
I believe the DirectX SDK is free for anyone to download. But maybe that's
for developing apps and games? Hmm.
> >Microsoft Office XP (most notably PowerPoint and FrontPage. before you
dis
> >FP, keep in mind that TPoNc was built with it, heh)
>
> I loathe all HTML makers with a passion. I write all my HTML by hand.
> It's slower, but I can't be saddled with stupid tags or bound to any
> particular broswer that way. As for the rest of it, I know StarOffice
> isn't as pretty, but it gets the job done well enough. And it reads
> (almost all) Word DOCs.
I didn't need to do anything special in FrontPage to get TPoNc to work
properly on IE as well as Netscape, Konqueror and Mozilla. My friends who
use the latter three tell me it works fine, and I tried on the (ancient) NS4
in school, as well.
> >Paint Shop Pro 7
>
> I doubt the GIMP measures up in feature richness, but it is a
half-decent
> paint program for Linux.
I know of that, I also know experienced designers (who usually use
Photoshop) avoid it like the plague. Not sure why, but I dumped Photoshop
because I thought it was slow and bloated - PSP7 does practically all PS
does, but faster. If GIMP doesn't measure up to Photoshop standards, it
won't measure up to mine ^^
> >Windows Media Player (it sounds better than Winamp due to the SRS tech
which
> >Microsoft has licensed. alternatives produce inferior sound.)
>
> WMP is an interesting case. M$ has done their usual "we're making our
> own proprietary formats every 2 years that nobody else is allowed to use!
> Nyeah!" If they would open up their formats, Linux could play everything
> Doze does. As it is, we in the Linux community have to take lots of time
> to reverse-engineer the protocols. BTW, Ogg Vorbis is suppose to be
kicking
> the living crap out of everything else in hearing tests.
Yeah, but neither WMP nor WAmp comes with OGG support by default, a fact
which is likely to throw OGG down the same path as VQF, another "better than
MP3 at lower bitrates" codec. Today, if I download a piece of music off the
web, it is 98% likely to be MP3 and 2% likely to be WMA. Unless OGG picks up
some popularity, it's going to be as popular as ZOO* sooner or later.
> >When Linux has drivers for a system I purchased "yesterday"
_out_of_the_box_
> >(or out-of-the-ISO), will run all popular PC games/apps, has as efficient
a
> >method of delivering security updates as Windows (Windows Update) and has
a
> >user-friendly interface (this includes never ever ever having to use the
> >console, or type in text commands), I will happily switch, unless
Microsoft
> >has a product which does all that but better.
>
> If that day comes, I'm fairly sure it will be because Linux has become
> as bad as 'Doze. I doubt I'll still be using Linux then.
Good point. I'm kind of waiting for Linux to go truly "mainstream" (as in,
20%+ of the desktop market) and become more commercialized, just so I can
see what new OS is born to take its place as the "elitist minority
opensource OS" which no-one uses. BeOS was looking good for a while, but it
seems rather dead atm.
*ZOO is a type of compression which was sparingly used even back in the
FidoNet/BBS days, when it was supposedly invented. Got blown away by ZIP,
like most others, although they (take LHA and ARC, for example) still live
on as features of WinZIP/WinRAR/WinACE.
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
Will <wille47@_NOSPAM_telia.com> wrote:
>This would work, except not every user will realize that the driver is the
>cause of the problem (especially since Linux error messages have a tendency
>to be just as cryptic as Windows BSODs) and will think their product is
>"broken". Also, whoever wrote the patch is probably just some geek in a
>basement with no time to play customer support, so whining at him won't
>really help fix the problem - he's likely to fix any problems he encounters,
>not go on a massive bughunt just because user X in Nevada can't get it
>working.
Which is as it should be. In this case, I say that manufacturers should
just tell people off. "This other guy wrote a driver. We don't know if it
works. You can try it if you want. If it doesn't, don't blame us. We'll
laugh at you, and then we'll hang up. Yes, that's policy." Really, that's
all of Linux. If it doesn't work, bummer - fix it if you feel like it.
Otherwise, feel free to live with it, or to walk through the Gates of hell.
Your computer, your choice.
>> As for the reboot thing, fair enough. I think my beef is that it seems
>> like the Windozen I've used require reboots for the dumbest things - like
>> changing an IP address. If they eliminate that, I'm happy. I'm not holding
>> my breath, though.
>
>They've fixed it in WinXP - although it still requires reboots for security
>updates, installing any piece of hardware which doesn't require opening the
>computer case is perfectly reboot-free. Office XP installed without a single
>reboot. So did this Logitech Force Feedback Wheel I just got. I can change
>drive letters without having to reboot, as well.
Pity it took them 15 years to figure it out. Mac had this capability
at least 5 years ago (prolly 10, I just haven't used Macs much at all),
and the 'Nixen probably 20. This is not a reason that XP is superior to
Linux, I'm afraid. Though it definitely _is_ a reason XP is superior to
Win9X.
>> I wouldn't put anything past 'em. After they lied in court and falsified
>> evidence at the anti-trust trial, I have no faith left whatsoever.
>
>The people who form Microsoft's legal team and administration are not the
>same as the ones who write the software. It's easy to look at Microsoft as a
>single entity but it's really a massive amount of people. Not all of them
>are asses, quite the contrary (in my experience), and the developers are
>quite often very nice chatting with - and having beta tested Microsoft
>Visual Studio.NET, I've done a fair amount of chatting with them :)
I don't care how cool the developers are, they're not in charge of
what gets out to the general public. Microsoft has blatantly lied in
court, and I see no reason why they wouldn't lie to their customers.
Especially after that "astroturf" stunt they pulled for Win98. Sheesh.
>> >> >Fdisked and formatted (Linux is harder to get rid of than Win2k!),
>> >>
>> >> Nah, now I'm going to have to call you. Seriously, if booting off a
>> >> clean floppy and doing an "fdisk /mbr" (or Linux equivalent) doesn't
>> >> wipe absolutely *everything* (Linux, Doze, whatever) on your hard disk,
>> >> I'll eat the first page of my Camel book.
>> >
>> >It does. But I only said removing Win2k is _easier_. Just format the
>drive,
>> >no need to fdisk, unless you're using NTFS of course.
>>
>> True enough. It is one extra command. Well, or one different command,
>> depending on how you want to look at it. If you're wiping the MBR you
>> don't strictly need to format the data areas of the drive first.
>
>Hang on now, Linux won't go away with _just_ fdisk /mbr. Especially if the
>drives aren't FAT. You'd have to remove the Linux partitions, create new FAT
>ones, and then format them. Takes a couple hours with 30+ gig disks.
Ah-ah, double standard! You're assuming that someone wants a VFAT-ish
partition on their drive. To _wipe_ the drive, one thing is required:
fdisk /mbr. If at that point you want to install an OS, then any time
said OS takes to build a filesystem is the OSes own fault. I might just
as well say that it takes two operations to wipe off 'Doze: fdisk /mbr
and then "newfs /dev/hda1" - which is the Linux equivalent to "format c:".
Both take a long time. But "format" or "newfs" time isn't time to wipe
the hard disk - it's time required by the OS to build a filesystem.
And as such it's the OSes fault.
>> Just money. That, and M$ will probably make you sign a non-disclosure
>> before they'll sell you an SDK capable of developing drivers.
>
>I believe the DirectX SDK is free for anyone to download. But maybe that's
>for developing apps and games? Hmm.
DirectX is a graphics API, it won't help you write device drivers. Rest
assured, you _will_ be required to sign away rights to your intellect if
you want to make device drivers for 'Doze. They love that shit.
>> I loathe all HTML makers with a passion. I write all my HTML by hand.
>> It's slower, but I can't be saddled with stupid tags or bound to any
>> particular broswer that way. As for the rest of it, I know StarOffice
>> isn't as pretty, but it gets the job done well enough. And it reads
>> (almost all) Word DOCs.
>
>I didn't need to do anything special in FrontPage to get TPoNc to work
>properly on IE as well as Netscape, Konqueror and Mozilla. My friends who
>use the latter three tell me it works fine, and I tried on the (ancient) NS4
>in school, as well.
That's only because people raised a shitstorm when M$ tried to bind
FrontPage to IE. Now, to be fair, Netscape tried to bind the whole damn
HTML markup language to their browser back in their heyday - for which
they were hated and bashed too. Both companies deserved the bashing they
got.
As for TPoNc, I didn't want to get into this because I'm so sick and
fucking tired of telling people their sites are broken, but you asked
for it...
- Your site _requires_ Javascript to be enabled in order to navigate
the frames. This means you can read my browsing history pop up
But you didn't know that, did you? Maybe because you surf with JavaScript
on always? Because your crappy browser makes it a total pain in the ass to
turn it off? Maybe because your idiot-ware HTML editor doesn't tell you
that frames in no way require JavaScript?
Maybe you didn't notice that your idiot-ware puts THIS:
"<h1>{The Perils of Nene-chan}</h1>
{The ultimate Bubblegum Crisis/Crisis 2040/Crash site on the web - dedicated
to Nene Romanova.}<p>
We're sorry but you've reached a Microsoft IIS hosted web site that uses
frames. You will need a frames-enabled browser in order to view the site.
NBC."
On the front of your pages? Nice of it to tell marauding s/<ript
kiddi3z that you're running IIS, innit? (Not that they would have a hard
time finding out anyway, but...)
How about this?
"<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">"
Oh great, now only platforms supporting windows-1252 character mappings can
view the page! Guess internationally accepted ISO-8859 was too hard for them,
huh?
Lookit this little gem from the HTML code in the menu frame:
<script language="javascript">
function dfc_gallery()
{
window.open("g.menu.html", "tponc_menu");
window.open("g.front.html", "tponc_main");
}
function dfc_sndvid()
{
window.open("sv.menu.html", "tponc_menu");
window.open("sv.front.html", "tponc_main");
}
function dfc_bios()
{
window.open("b.menu.html", "tponc_menu");
window.open("b.front.html", "tponc_main");
}
</script>
Do you need any more proof that JavaShit is totally unnecessary here?
When you click on a link, all it does is open a new window with another URL.
Have we not heard of "<a href="?????
I could go on for pages. This is exactly the kind of stupid bullshit
that keeps me from using HTML editors. Now, I wish I could say FrontPage
was the only one who does this, but it's not true - they ALL do. So I'm not
blaming FrontPage in particular. But I am saying that it's just as bad as
the rest of them.
I hate to hold myself up as an example of good web design, but if you
at the very least want an example of truly clean, elegant HTML, go look at
http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/current/MonstersInc.html . Or if
that's too boring for you,
http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/content/2001-10/MachGunShoot/000shoot.html
which is still exceptionally clean.
>> >Paint Shop Pro 7
>>
>> I doubt the GIMP measures up in feature richness, but it is a
>>half-decent paint program for Linux.
>
>I know of that, I also know experienced designers (who usually use
>Photoshop) avoid it like the plague. Not sure why,
I have a guess - they're accustomed to Photoshop's tool set and can't
handle the change. That's fine, if they like their tools they should
not be forced to change them. But, just because another tool isn't
the one they're used to doesn't make it a bad tool.
>but I dumped Photoshop because I thought it was slow and bloated - PSP7
>does practically all PS does, but faster. If GIMP doesn't measure up to
>Photoshop standards, it won't measure up to mine ^^
Fair enough. I didn't say Da Gimp was great. I actually don't think
it is. But, it's decent. More than good enough for the average user who
just wants to add fonts and tinker with colors.
>> WMP is an interesting case. M$ has done their usual "we're making our
>> own proprietary formats every 2 years that nobody else is allowed to use!
>> Nyeah!" If they would open up their formats, Linux could play everything
>> Doze does. As it is, we in the Linux community have to take lots of time
>> to reverse-engineer the protocols. BTW, Ogg Vorbis is suppose to be
>> kicking the living crap out of everything else in hearing tests.
>
>Yeah, but neither WMP nor WAmp comes with OGG support by default, a fact
>which is likely to throw OGG down the same path as VQF, another "better than
>MP3 at lower bitrates" codec. Today, if I download a piece of music off the
>web, it is 98% likely to be MP3 and 2% likely to be WMA. Unless OGG picks up
>some popularity, it's going to be as popular as ZOO* sooner or later.
Point I'm trying to make here is that something isn't necessarily better,
in a technical sense, just becuase it comes from M$. They'd like you to
think that. They advertise that way. But it isn't necessarily true. Sometimes
it is, but not always. As a matter of fact, I'd say that except in the case
of UI stuff, they're usually *not* technologically superior.
Bottom line, M$ is in this to make money. And you probably know, if a
company has a choice between making more money and making better software,
(and no, they're not the same) making more money wins every time. The
Linux guys are hopeless technical elitists, but they ARE in this to
make good software.
I know what .zoo is, incidentally. I had my BBSing days too. I wish
we had .rar back then...
>Good point. I'm kind of waiting for Linux to go truly "mainstream" (as in,
>20%+ of the desktop market) and become more commercialized, just so I can
>see what new OS is born to take its place as the "elitist minority
>opensource OS" which no-one uses. BeOS was looking good for a while, but it
>seems rather dead atm.
It should be interesting. Truthfully, I'm not sure Linux can ever go
that way. It's got the GPL, which pretty much destroys all profit
motive in selling the OS itself. (Though there are, of course, tons of
other ways to make good money off Linux...)
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
A Discovery channel mind in an MTV world.
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
<m.r....@stir.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Now, I *dare* you to show me any Windoze box anywhere that gets used
>> daily by it's owner (as my Linux box does) and has been up for 150 days
>> straight. Double-dog dare, man!
>
>Just did a quick scout around here. Nothing that's really in
>'old man' territory because of upgrades and patch applications,
>but our main MS Exchange server (handles mail for a couple of
>thousand users) has been up for 148 days, and insn't likely to
>get rebooted in the next two...
NT, I presume? Anyhoo, I'm talking about something that someone logs
into every day. If you want to get into servers, let's talk about that
700+ day uptime Sun NFS server.
>> Nah, now I'm going to have to call you. Seriously, if booting off a
>> clean floppy and doing an "fdisk /mbr" (or Linux equivalent) doesn't
>> wipe absolutely *everything* (Linux, Doze, whatever) on your hard disk,
>
>I'll call you on that - 'fdisk /mbr' doesn't delete anything
>apart from what was installed on the boot record - the partition
>table, filesystem structures and data are all still there.
It removes LILO, but I can't remember if it wipes the partition table
or not. http://www.datarescue.com/laboratory/partition.htm says that
both the master boot loader program (which I'm sure fdisk /mbr replaces,
that's how it wipes LILO) and the partition table both exist in the
same sector. So, let me amend: anything that wipes the MBR sector on
the hard disk will completely erase the disk with respect to Doze or
Linux. That's what I'm trying to say. And so I say it's equally easy to
delete either one off your hard disk.
>> I'll eat the first page of my Camel book.
>Want somke ketchup with that?
I'm a mayo person. ;]
-Ben "mmmm, camels..." Cantrick
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
"You've got to stop trying to understand and just start looking for patterns."
Dr. Raven
2033:
> In article <slrn9v9vc0....@pc14484.stir.ac.uk>,
> <m.r....@stir.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Nah, now I'm going to have to call you. Seriously, if booting off a
>>> clean floppy and doing an "fdisk /mbr" (or Linux equivalent) doesn't
>>> wipe absolutely *everything* (Linux, Doze, whatever) on your hard disk,
>>
>> I'll call you on that - 'fdisk /mbr' doesn't delete anything
>> apart from what was installed on the boot record - the partition
>> table, filesystem structures and data are all still there.
That's correct. Basically you're killing the table of contents. The data
that the table of contents was pointing to is still on the system. Only a
full format will wipe everything out.
Unless you're a CSI...
Per Larsson
> >Hang on now, Linux won't go away with _just_ fdisk /mbr. Especially if the
> >drives aren't FAT. You'd have to remove the Linux partitions, create new FAT
> >ones, and then format them. Takes a couple hours with 30+ gig disks.
>
> Ah-ah, double standard! You're assuming that someone wants a VFAT-ish
> partition on their drive. To _wipe_ the drive, one thing is required:
> fdisk /mbr. If at that point you want to install an OS, then any time
> said OS takes to build a filesystem is the OSes own fault. I might just
> as well say that it takes two operations to wipe off 'Doze: fdisk /mbr
> and then "newfs /dev/hda1" - which is the Linux equivalent to "format c:".
> Both take a long time. But "format" or "newfs" time isn't time to wipe
> the hard disk - it's time required by the OS to build a filesystem.
> And as such it's the OSes fault.
The dos command 'fdisk /mbr' doesn't wipe the partition table, it just
replaces the boot code portion of the mbr.
It's used for 2 things mostly:
- Getting rid of boot-sector viruses (not very common anymore, when
macro-viruses are the norm)
- Getting rid of LILO.
--
Democracy is the working model of any form of mob rule. The fruit of
democracy, if unchecked by respect for human rights, is gang violence.
Always! -- http://www.unquietmind.com/mislaid_iv.html
chika
> >[lots of wanking deleted]
Wondered what it was. And he had the afrontery to object to me calling him
a troll! Mind you, if he is prepared to swallow that bunch of M$ crap,
then I just hope that he's happy. Right up to the next BSOD, of course.
But then the next question is "How many OS's has he tried?" At least it is
if you want lists and stuff next.
You have to remember that M$ have effectively brainwashed the lowly into
accepting a number of myths, without which they would never have a chance
of continuing to sell OS's to anyone.
1. OS's must be big, since they do so much
2. BSOD's are a natural part of computing
3. We must all upgrade our OS's every three years, even if the old one
still does what we want it to do.
4. All other OS's are inferior, cause Bill says so.
5. Open Source and Free Software is somehow dirty. If we spend hundreds of
whatever currency you want, then you are somehow cleansed.
6. Linux is only for geeks.
7. Nothing good comes out of Europe.
I no longer try to debunk these myths. Some of them are on shaky ground
anyway, and the rest will crumble as people wise up. I just think of all
the times I have shown up the Redmonster with my poor old system, with its
ROM based, developed (rather than continually replaced) OS.
You see, I have never been STANDARDISED! (Spot the anime reference)
> >Typical. You try to say something nice about something, and somebody
> >else uses it as the jumping-off point to rip on something else.
And that is different for what reason? Usenet has always contained such
things.
> >Usenet must be destroyed.
> Nah...it has its uses.. I just ignore the noise coming from under the
> rocks. ;)
It's like any room full of talking heads. There are always some you wish
you could take an axe to, if only you had room to swing... :)
chika
<drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote:
> > If you haven't used Windows since the days when you had to do /that/
> > (win98?) then you really are in no position to talk. Windows 2000 was
> > probably the best OS created (albeit with a few flaws) and Windows XP
> > has
> OK, let's not go here because this is really not the forum for an OS
> debate. Besides, there are operating systems out there that many people
> here have probably never heard of that blow away consumer-targeted
> operating systems like Windows, so it's pretty easy to dispute your
> claim that Windows 2000 is the best OS created. You can try claiming
> it's the best *consumer* OS created, but even then I still couldn't
> agree with you ;)
I'll not ask again if anyone heard of my OS... However I will state that a
sizeable number of companies over here are giving W2K a wide berth as it
has a number of issues. Software and drivers being the two biggest (but
then consider that Windows 2000 is an NT upgrade. Only the uninformed have
every considered W2K as a true W98 upgrade, and many of these issues still
exist with WXP since this too sits on DEC's work. Yes, yet again, M$ are
benefitting from someone else's work!)
Mind you, they just found out at work that I sneaked SuSE 7.1 onto a spare
partition on my work kit... <snigger>
Dreamer
CSI?
"Computer System Intelligence"?
Where do you get this from???
Cheers, Rory.
> Dr.Raven
--
Dreamer
dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/
Dr. Raven
dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk somehow managed to send the following on 11/17/01
7:25 AM into the future to my computer in MegaTokyo in the year 2033:
Thursday nights on CBS at 9 PM Eastern.
Dr. Raven
--
Raven's Garage & Fanfics
www.ravensgarage.com
"As of now, the Internet is operating normally."
July 31 2001, Ronald L. Dick, FBI National Infrastructure Protection Center
John C. Watson
Cantrick at mackys...@dim.com wrote on 11/16/2001 14:13:
>http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/content/2001-10/MachGunShoot/000shoot.html
> which is still exceptionally clean.
FYI: the full auto shotgun is a USAS-12, and the machine guns on the twin
mount are either German MG-42s, or their descendents, the MG-1/MG-2/MG-3s.
Ciao,
John
--
John C. Watson
World Otakunization Project, Amherst Division
Dreamer
This requires a knowledge of American TV schedules, which while I
suppose they might be found on the net _somewhere_ are not
generally known to us culturally deprived (some might suggest
depraved... [grin]) people outside the US.
(In my case, in the UK.)
I will admit to running a non-MS, non-Apple, non-Linux machine as
my Internet access tool... Which has... certain advantages!
[grin]
(A wordprocessor that I bought in 1984, "Wordwise Plus", still
runs adequately, for example. George Orwell would probably
approve.)
I am also impressed by the way that you in MegaTokyo timeline
2033 have such a good grasp of early 21stC US TV. You must be
running some very good cultural contextual database systems on
your workshop Macs! [grin]
Cheers, Rory.
> Dr. Raven
chika
Dreamer <dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I will admit to running a non-MS, non-Apple, non-Linux machine as
> my Internet access tool... Which has... certain advantages!
> [grin]
Yay! Another Acorn user!!! (Mind you, I tend to use Impression rather than
Wordwise...) :)
You ain't killed us yet, Billy-boy! :b
--
----- Chika - miy...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\//
----- CrashnetUK - crashnet.org.uk (come.to/arena.essex)
... What are you doing?!? The message is over, GO AWAY!
Anthony Markley
> > >
> > > CSI?
> > >
> > > "Computer System Intelligence"?
> > >
> > > Where do you get this from???
> >
> > Thursday nights on CBS at 9 PM Eastern.
>
> This requires a knowledge of American TV schedules, which while I
> suppose they might be found on the net _somewhere_ are not
> generally known to us culturally deprived (some might suggest
> depraved... [grin]) people outside the US.
>
> (In my case, in the UK.)
OK, try UK Living, Sundays at 9pm ^_^
"CSI: Crime Scene Investigation". Was shown on Channel 5 until recently as
well.
AM
Dr. Raven
johnc...@mediaone.net somehow managed to send the following on 11/18/01
2:47 AM into the future to my computer in MegaTokyo in the year 2033:
> in article 9t3ofv$4...@flatland.dimensional.com, Ben "The Cyber-Terrorist"
> Cantrick at mackys...@dim.com wrote on 11/16/2001 14:13:
>
>http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/content/2001-10/MachGunShoot/000shoot.html
I missed the original post O_o
So who's this Ben?
http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/content/2001-10/MachGunShoot/008.jpg
Dr. Raven
>>>> That's correct. Basically you're killing the table of contents. The data
>>>> that the table of contents was pointing to is still on the system. Only a
>>>> full format will wipe everything out.
>>>>
>>>> Unless you're a CSI...
>>>
>>> CSI?
>>>
>>> "Computer System Intelligence"?
>>>
>>> Where do you get this from???
>>
>> Thursday nights on CBS at 9 PM Eastern.
>
> This requires a knowledge of American TV schedules, which while I
> suppose they might be found on the net _somewhere_ are not
> generally known to us culturally deprived (some might suggest
> depraved... [grin]) people outside the US.
Okay, you're gonna make me do all the work for you are ya? ;)
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/csi/
It's a great show about forensics investigators in Las Vegas. And my
allusion was to the fact that certain criminal departments that specialize
in computer crimes have some amazing tools that can recover data from hard
drives that are considered impossible to get data from.
> I will admit to running a non-MS, non-Apple, non-Linux machine as
> my Internet access tool... Which has... certain advantages!
> [grin]
>
> (A wordprocessor that I bought in 1984, "Wordwise Plus", still
> runs adequately, for example. George Orwell would probably
> approve.)
I love old computers and gadgets. They really show what people could do when
they had limited resources at the edge of a new frontier. Despite some of
the technological advances made in the last 50 years sometimes I think we
could do even better if we had more challenges in our way. Of course, this
century has it's own challenges.
> I am also impressed by the way that you in MegaTokyo timeline
> 2033 have such a good grasp of early 21stC US TV. You must be
> running some very good cultural contextual database systems on
> your workshop Macs! [grin]
Heh ;)
When things are slow at the garage (yeah right) I'll slip back into your
time and buy up a bunch of old Macs to be hot-rodded when I get back. They
just seem to last a lot longer than windows-base PCs. I'll bet you didn't
know I have an Apple ][ running ravensgarage.com?
Just kidding ;)
Dr. Raven (It's a Mac Plus... just kidding again <g>)
Dreamer
<URL:mailto:miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant18084...@romsys.demon.co.uk>,
> Dreamer <dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I will admit to running a non-MS, non-Apple, non-Linux machine as
> > my Internet access tool... Which has... certain advantages!
> > [grin]
>
> Yay! Another Acorn user!!! (Mind you, I tend to use Impression rather than
> Wordwise...) :)
Yes, but all my RPG character sheets and templates are in
Wordwise format, and Impression wont convert them! Yes, I use
Impression Style, particularly for reading Rich Text Format files
that I am sent, but I will admit to using Edit for almost
everything, seeing as it is in ROM along with the operating
system.
My technique for reading MS Word files people send me involves
taking Edit (a pure text editor) to them, and hacking out the
text...
OB BGC: I wonder how many people will be using machines with
incompatible operating systems by the time we get to 2033, and
how many will still be worrying about viruses!
> You ain't killed us yet, Billy-boy! :b
He has tried quite hard, though...
Cheers, Rory.
Dreamer
Ah! Thanks.
Dreaded TLAs... (Three Letter Abreviations)
Most of my watching these days is SF stuff on SciFi or Sky One,
with anime on Cartoon Network and Saturday midnight SciFi.
Also, I am still on analogue cable, rather than digital, so have
a more limited range of options!
Maybe they will show BGC 2040 sooner or later...
Cheers, Rory.
> AM
Dreamer
<URL:mailto:drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote:
> in article ant18084...@romsys.demon.co.uk, Dreamer at
> dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk somehow managed to send the following on 11/18/01
> 3:46 AM into the future to my computer in MegaTokyo in the year 2033:
>
> >>>> That's correct. Basically you're killing the table of contents. The data
> >>>> that the table of contents was pointing to is still on the system. Only a
> >>>> full format will wipe everything out.
> >>>>
> >>>> Unless you're a CSI...
> >>>
> >>> CSI?
> >>>
> >>> "Computer System Intelligence"?
> >>>
> >>> Where do you get this from???
> >>
> >> Thursday nights on CBS at 9 PM Eastern.
> >
> > This requires a knowledge of American TV schedules, which while I
> > suppose they might be found on the net _somewhere_ are not
> > generally known to us culturally deprived (some might suggest
> > depraved... [grin]) people outside the US.
>
> Okay, you're gonna make me do all the work for you are ya? ;)
>
> http://www.cbs.com/primetime/csi/
Thanks! I suppose I should have guessed that CBS would have their
own web site.
> It's a great show about forensics investigators in Las Vegas. And my
> allusion was to the fact that certain criminal departments that specialize
> in computer crimes have some amazing tools that can recover data from hard
> drives that are considered impossible to get data from.
If I recall my physics and computer science correctly, if you are
sufficiently bloody minded about it you may be able to pick up
the magnetic images of more than just the last thing written to
the disc, with sensitive enough instruments. With older discs (5+
yrs ago) I was told you could pick up the last five writes, but I
don't know about more modern discs.
I think this is why there are those thorough deletion programs,
which before they let go of the disc area owned by a file for
re-use write zeros and ones maybe five times over it.
So, is this still an issue in 2033? [grin]
> > I will admit to running a non-MS, non-Apple, non-Linux machine as
> > my Internet access tool... Which has... certain advantages!
> > [grin]
> >
> > (A wordprocessor that I bought in 1984, "Wordwise Plus", still
> > runs adequately, for example. George Orwell would probably
> > approve.)
>
> I love old computers and gadgets. They really show what people could do when
> they had limited resources at the edge of a new frontier. Despite some of
> the technological advances made in the last 50 years sometimes I think we
> could do even better if we had more challenges in our way. Of course, this
> century has it's own challenges.
My computer is not old! I got it only in about 1995! Now my
previous computer, which my sister used to wordprocess her degree
notes and course work until last year, which I bought in 1989,
you can call _that_ old!
Now, what wories me, is that most of the software and OSs we are
using could have been written in 1984, if they had that much
storage and disc to throw away on them! And the hardware has got
a 1000x faster and is 1000x capacity over that period. Scary.
The next big challenge area still looks like space, along with
making sense of the tsunami of information. Then there are AIs,
making sensible use of biotech, and at least microtech or even
nanotech... "May you live in interesting times."
> > I am also impressed by the way that you in MegaTokyo timeline
> > 2033 have such a good grasp of early 21stC US TV. You must be
> > running some very good cultural contextual database systems on
> > your workshop Macs! [grin]
>
> Heh ;)
>
> When things are slow at the garage (yeah right) I'll slip back into your
> time and buy up a bunch of old Macs to be hot-rodded when I get back.
Never owned a Mac myself, though the Newton looked really
interesting. My impression of them over other mini and mainframe
systems I worked on was that you had to work a lot harder to
develop software for them, though it was often worth it.
> They
> just seem to last a lot longer than windows-base PCs. I'll bet you didn't
> know I have an Apple ][ running ravensgarage.com?
My first real computer (rather than experimental kit) was a BBC
Micro, which was inspired by the Apple. It was the first micro
that gave you the capabilities of a minicomputer, with colour
graphics, a powerful and approachable programming language, and
with twin floppys and a dot matrix printer pretty impressive.
If you were using an Apple ][ to run ravensgarage.com, I think
your memory bank switching hardware would be getting pretty
hot...
> Just kidding ;)
>
>
> Dr. Raven (It's a Mac Plus... just kidding again <g>)
Let's see... M68000... Stuff 16M RAM into it. Should do!
Cheers, Rory.
chika
<dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4adb57b2...@argonet.co.uk>, chika
> <URL:mailto:miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ant18084...@romsys.demon.co.uk>, Dreamer
> > <dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I will admit to running a non-MS, non-Apple, non-Linux machine as my
> > > Internet access tool... Which has... certain advantages! [grin]
> >
> > Yay! Another Acorn user!!! (Mind you, I tend to use Impression rather
> > than Wordwise...) :)
> Yes, but all my RPG character sheets and templates are in Wordwise
> format, and Impression wont convert them! Yes, I use Impression Style,
> particularly for reading Rich Text Format files that I am sent, but I
> will admit to using Edit for almost everything, seeing as it is in ROM
> along with the operating system.
I used to do everything with Edit myself, though these days I use StrongEd
more often, especially for html editing. Having said that, have you tried
installing the LoadWW+ module into Impression Style?
> My technique for reading MS Word files people send me involves taking
> Edit (a pure text editor) to them, and hacking out the text...
I use AntiWord myself. It strips a lot of the effects, but it handles most
of the Word files that get poked at me. Mind you, this machine I'm using
here is a Castle built RO4 RPC, so I also have Easiwriter which can, in
the freebie version, handle anything up to Word 95. I don't use it much
for WP, but for file conversion it isn't bad.
> OB BGC: I wonder how many people will be using machines with
> incompatible operating systems by the time we get to 2033, and how many
> will still be worrying about viruses!
As long as there are greed-merchants controlling the market, and
anti-social folk exploiting the loopholes they leave, people will worry.
More than once at my (soon to be ex) workplace, I have warned folk not to
talk of viruses in open public because of the panic it causes.
> > You ain't killed us yet, Billy-boy! :b
> He has tried quite hard, though...
Oh yes, he has! That's why it is so gratifying to hear him and his cohorts
screaming like stuck pigs at the idea of Linux taking market share off
him, not to mention all the other OS's (including RO) doing the same!
Dr. Raven
>> http://www.cbs.com/primetime/csi/
>
> Thanks! I suppose I should have guessed that CBS would have their
> own web site.
Yes, you should have ;)
>> It's a great show about forensics investigators in Las Vegas. And my
>> allusion was to the fact that certain criminal departments that specialize
>> in computer crimes have some amazing tools that can recover data from hard
>> drives that are considered impossible to get data from.
>
> If I recall my physics and computer science correctly, if you are
> sufficiently bloody minded about it you may be able to pick up
> the magnetic images of more than just the last thing written to
> the disc, with sensitive enough instruments. With older discs (5+
> yrs ago) I was told you could pick up the last five writes, but I
> don't know about more modern discs.
>
> I think this is why there are those thorough deletion programs,
> which before they let go of the disc area owned by a file for
> re-use write zeros and ones maybe five times over it.
>
> So, is this still an issue in 2033? [grin]
<grins to himself as he thinks of the many ways to answer this question>
No.
But we have slightly more sophisticated problems.
http://www.ravensgarage.com/garage/maslargo.htm
>> I love old computers and gadgets. They really show what people could do when
>> they had limited resources at the edge of a new frontier. Despite some of
>> the technological advances made in the last 50 years sometimes I think we
>> could do even better if we had more challenges in our way. Of course, this
>> century has it's own challenges.
>
> My computer is not old! I got it only in about 1995! Now my
> previous computer, which my sister used to wordprocess her degree
> notes and course work until last year, which I bought in 1989,
> you can call _that_ old!
Well in 2033 I can call your 1995 computer old ;)
I find it a real kick in the ass whenever I look at a timeline of personal
computing. Here's some fun facts:
1980: First hard disk for microcomputers created by Seagate. Capacity 5 MB.
That's MEGABYTES!
1981: The first IBM PC with Microsoft's BASIC is released in August using
the 8088 CPU.
1982: Intel 286 released. Now we're playing with power!
1983: MS Word is announced. Also, Apple introduces the "Lisa", first
personal computer with a graphical interface. It doesn't last long
because...
1984: ...The first Macintosh ships on January 24th (my birthday BTW).
William Gibson releases "Neuromancer". Van Halen releases "1984". Not
computer related but it was their last really kick-ass album! Does anyone
else feel a void in their life with VH all but history?
1985: Intel launches the 368 CPU. Also, Windows 1.0 shipped in 1985. It
sucks.
1986: Microsoft releases DOS 3.2. IBM unveils the VGA chipset. Woooooo!
Microsoft ships Windows 2.0. Everyone agrees it pretty much sucks too,
1987: MS ships DOS 4.1
1989: Intel launches the 486 (keep in mind this was only 12 years ago!)
1990: HTML language invented for the Internet as we know it today. MS ships
Windows 3.0. This is where the OS wars really started to heat up.
1991: Microsoft changes the name of OS/2 v. 3.0 to Windows NT. MS ships DOS
5.0.
1992: MS ships Windows 3.1. It sells a million copies in 50 days.
1993: Intel launches the Pentium CPU (this was only 8 years ago!). MS
releases Windows NT 3.1 and DOS 6.0
1994: Apple launches the PowerMac line of computers. MS releases Windows NT
3.5 (this is where NT really caught on).
1995: Intel launches the Pentium Pro (Think about this... this was only 6
years ago! And there are still several more versions of the Pentium to go).
MS releases... You guessed it, Windows 95. 1 million copies are sold in 4
days (compared to 50 days for Win 3.1). MS also releases Internet Explorer
2.0 (spring) and 3.0 (fall). That was quick! Gee, did competing with
Netscape have anything to do with that? MS releases Windows NT 4.0.
1996: Apple Computer buys Steve Jobs's Next Corporation and goes on to use
the technology in the UNIX- based NextStep OS for what eventually will
become Mac OS X (which was formally released in March of 2001).
1997: The internet *really* takes off (this was only 4 years ago people.
Amazing).
And to put it all in perspective, let's not forget that IBM launched it's
very first electronic computer, the 701, way back in 1953 ;)
Sources:
http://www.qvctc.commnet.edu/classes/csc277/timeline.html
http://infocomp.csuchico.edu/metis/fundamental/misc/History_01.htm
http://www.pbs.org/nerds/timeline/
http://www.cyberstreet.com/hcs/museum/chron.htm
> Now, what wories me, is that most of the software and OSs we are
> using could have been written in 1984, if they had that much
> storage and disc to throw away on them! And the hardware has got
> a 1000x faster and is 1000x capacity over that period. Scary.
But PC makers are still using tin boxes with cards in them like they did
when they started, like glorified HeathKits! The Barbarians! Get out of the
stone age!
> The next big challenge area still looks like space, along with
> making sense of the tsunami of information. Then there are AIs,
> making sensible use of biotech, and at least microtech or even
> nanotech... "May you live in interesting times."
It will be the end of the innocence. To very roughly paraphrase Ian Malcom
from Jurassic Park, "You were so busy worrying about whether you could do
this, you forgot to ask if you should do this".
Who's steering this planet anyway?
>>> I am also impressed by the way that you in MegaTokyo timeline
>>> 2033 have such a good grasp of early 21stC US TV. You must be
>>> running some very good cultural contextual database systems on
>>> your workshop Macs! [grin]
>>
>> Heh ;)
>>
>> When things are slow at the garage (yeah right) I'll slip back into your
>> time and buy up a bunch of old Macs to be hot-rodded when I get back.
>
> Never owned a Mac myself, though the Newton looked really
> interesting. My impression of them over other mini and mainframe
> systems I worked on was that you had to work a lot harder to
> develop software for them, though it was often worth it.
Well, I could say that *I* think Macs are better machines because the
engineers who built them just seemed to take the time to do it right the
first time (no Y2K problem for example), and things are much more logical
and efficient. But then again that would be logic as seen through my eyes.
What is logical through your eyes, or anyone else's? Mr. Spock made the
whole logical thang look way too easy.
>> They
>> just seem to last a lot longer than windows-base PCs. I'll bet you didn't
>> know I have an Apple ][ running ravensgarage.com?
>
> My first real computer (rather than experimental kit) was a BBC
> Micro, which was inspired by the Apple. It was the first micro
> that gave you the capabilities of a minicomputer, with colour
> graphics, a powerful and approachable programming language, and
> with twin floppys and a dot matrix printer pretty impressive.
Is it still running? I have 5 Apple ]['s all in working order :)
> If you were using an Apple ][ to run ravensgarage.com, I think
> your memory bank switching hardware would be getting pretty
> hot...
Fans. BIG fans. And some other stuff I can't talk about.
Just kidding!
>> Dr. Raven (It's a Mac Plus... just kidding again <g>)
>
> Let's see... M68000... Stuff 16M RAM into it. Should do!
Heh ;) Cheers indeed!
Dr. Raven
John C. Watson
> In article <B81C6D3E.6003%drr...@ravensgarage.com>, Dr. Raven
> <URL:mailto:drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote:
>> in article ant17124...@romsys.demon.co.uk, Dreamer at
>> dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk somehow managed to send the following on 11/17/01
>> 7:25 AM into the future to my computer in MegaTokyo in the year 2033:
>>
>>> In article <B81B13E7.5FD5%drr...@ravensgarage.com>, Dr. Raven
>>> <URL:mailto:drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote:
>>>> in article 9t3pb8$4...@flatland.dimensional.com, Ben "The Cyber-Terrorist"
>>>> Cantrick at mackys...@dim.com somehow managed to send the following on
>>>> 11/16/01 2:27 PM into the future to my computer in MegaTokyo in the year
>>>> 2033:
>>>>
>>>> Unless you're a CSI...
>>>
>>> CSI?
>>>
>>> "Computer System Intelligence"?
>>>
>>> Where do you get this from???
>>
>> Thursday nights on CBS at 9 PM Eastern.
>
> This requires a knowledge of American TV schedules, which while I
> suppose they might be found on the net _somewhere_ are not
> generally known to us culturally deprived (some might suggest
> depraved... [grin]) people outside the US.
See TV Guide Online <http://tvguide.com/>. CBS ("Columbia Broadcast[ing?])
System is one of the three original major networks (ABC ("American--") and
NBC ("National Broadcast Corporation") are the other two), though they've
been joined by Fox and PBS (Public Broadcasting System, the analog to the
BBC and NHK). _TV Guide_ is a biweekly program guide in the digest format,
local editions of which are sold nationwide at newsstands and supermarkets.
(The editorial content is the same, only schedules differ from market to
market.)
Dreamer
<URL:mailto:miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant18191...@romsys.demon.co.uk>, Dreamer
> <dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4adb57b2...@argonet.co.uk>, chika
> > <URL:mailto:miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <ant18084...@romsys.demon.co.uk>, Dreamer
> > > <dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > I will admit to running a non-MS, non-Apple, non-Linux machine as my
> > > > Internet access tool... Which has... certain advantages! [grin]
> > >
> > > Yay! Another Acorn user!!! (Mind you, I tend to use Impression rather
> > > than Wordwise...) :)
>
> > Yes, but all my RPG character sheets and templates are in Wordwise
> > format, and Impression wont convert them! Yes, I use Impression Style,
> > particularly for reading Rich Text Format files that I am sent, but I
> > will admit to using Edit for almost everything, seeing as it is in ROM
> > along with the operating system.
>
> I used to do everything with Edit myself, though these days I use StrongEd
> more often, especially for html editing. Having said that, have you tried
> installing the LoadWW+ module into Impression Style?
Straying a lot Off Topic here...
Yes, and it didn't work; not a thorough enough converter.
HTML editing I still use Edit (if only MS could have included
anything that powerful, but we got Notepad), and some home-brew
Basic programs that convert Impression documents saved with
styles into web pages. That is how most of my web site was built.
I wonder what sort of editor one would use for editing boomer
AIs, and whether it would run on a MS operating system? [grin]
I am sure you would have graphical WYSIWYG ones, but I suspect
you would still get programmers using text-based ones...
> > My technique for reading MS Word files people send me involves taking
> > Edit (a pure text editor) to them, and hacking out the text...
>
> I use AntiWord myself. It strips a lot of the effects, but it handles most
> of the Word files that get poked at me. Mind you, this machine I'm using
> here is a Castle built RO4 RPC, so I also have Easiwriter which can, in
> the freebie version, handle anything up to Word 95. I don't use it much
> for WP, but for file conversion it isn't bad.
>
> > OB BGC: I wonder how many people will be using machines with
> > incompatible operating systems by the time we get to 2033, and how many
> > will still be worrying about viruses!
>
> As long as there are greed-merchants controlling the market, and
> anti-social folk exploiting the loopholes they leave, people will worry.
> More than once at my (soon to be ex) workplace, I have warned folk not to
> talk of viruses in open public because of the panic it causes.
A properly designed operating system would not permit viruses,
and we have known how to design these for at least 20 and
probably 25 years. Having most of the OS read-only, say in ROM,
and everything in your filing system read-only until you need to
change it, and keeping records of the change, stops practically
everything. Not to mention installing changed-file backup systems
into the OS before any machine is sold.
[sigh]
> > > You ain't killed us yet, Billy-boy! :b
>
> > He has tried quite hard, though...
>
> Oh yes, he has! That's why it is so gratifying to hear him and his cohorts
> screaming like stuck pigs at the idea of Linux taking market share off
> him, not to mention all the other OS's (including RO) doing the same!
I think that is mostly play acting. Apple, Novell and Netscape
are no longer really problems for them, and they are trying hard
to kick Sun out of the server market with C# and .Net, after Sun
called them on their Java scam. I professionally recommend to
people not to have their business dependant on a server running a
MS OS, but...
There was quite an amusing BGC manga about a competitor to Genom
trying to sell their boomer, on the basis that it had faster
fusion capability, and lasted better than Genom boomers against
the KS (that ever so useful measure for combat boomers, the KS
sec (seconds survived in combat with the KS) probably applied).
Unfortunately it was a very, very stupid boomer, and seemed
rather a hentai as well.
Dreamer
<URL:mailto:drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote:
> in article ant18202...@romsys.demon.co.uk, Dreamer at
> dre...@romsys.demon.co.uk somehow managed to send the following on 11/18/01
> 3:47 PM into the future to my computer in MegaTokyo in the year 2033:
> > I think this is why there are those thorough deletion programs,
> > which before they let go of the disc area owned by a file for
> > re-use write zeros and ones maybe five times over it.
> >
> > So, is this still an issue in 2033? [grin]
>
> <grins to himself as he thinks of the many ways to answer this question>
>
> No.
>
> But we have slightly more sophisticated problems.
>
> http://www.ravensgarage.com/garage/maslargo.htm
I suspect the the KS would not like being refered to as "just a
thorough boomer deletion service". [grin]
Hmm. If you wanted to put Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics on a
boomer, would you have to ensure that it was self-aware first?
Genom would not like that...
> >> I love old computers and gadgets. They really show what people could do when
> >> they had limited resources at the edge of a new frontier. Despite some of
> >> the technological advances made in the last 50 years sometimes I think we
> >> could do even better if we had more challenges in our way. Of course, this
> >> century has it's own challenges.
> >
> > My computer is not old! I got it only in about 1995! Now my
> > previous computer, which my sister used to wordprocess her degree
> > notes and course work until last year, which I bought in 1989,
> > you can call _that_ old!
>
> Well in 2033 I can call your 1995 computer old ;)
That's cheating! [grin]
> I find it a real kick in the ass whenever I look at a timeline of personal
> computing. Here's some fun facts:
>
> 1980: First hard disk for microcomputers created by Seagate. Capacity 5 MB.
> That's MEGABYTES!
[snip]
Not a bad summary.
The first HD I actually owned was 20Mb, which I bought mid 80s,
for my 8-bit micro. There did not seem any prospect of ever
filling it up. A bit of a step up from the 100k floppies!
I think your list should include MCA (Micro Channel
Architecture), in the late 80s, that wonderful IBM shooting
themselves in the foot as they attempted to force the PC
compatible industry into licensing something from them that was
incompatible with ISA, and would ensure IBM maintained control.
Just went downhill for IBM from then on...
> 1983: MS Word is announced. Also, Apple introduces the "Lisa", first
> personal computer with a graphical interface. It doesn't last long
> because...
[snip]
The company I worked for considered using the Lisa, but were put
off by the fact that if you ran Fortran programs on it you could
not use the GUI, and Apple's suggestion was re-write our Fortran
programs into Pascal so as to run on the GUI. Considering that we
had the equivalent of 1.1 million lines of Fortran code...
> 1985: Intel launches the 368 CPU. Also, Windows 1.0 shipped in 1985. It
> sucks.
[snip]
First decent Intel X86 processor. You could run a real OS on it,
one with memory protection, fit up to 16Mb RAM, good enough for
practically any program, and even fit a floating point
coprocessor, making it in all ways the equivalent of a scientific
minicomputer. Pity the Motorola 68000 series could do most of that
(bar the FP) about 1980...
You should have about 1988 the first consumer 32-bit RISC
machine, including a GUI, and with the OS all in ROM (including a
systems-grade programming language). Even had the basic fonts in
ROM. ARM processor, OS being RISC OS.
Called, the "Acorn Archimedes"! [grin]
I sent mine off to a computer recycling place earlier this year,
as I could not justify upgrading it. Pity.
> 1993: Intel launches the Pentium CPU (this was only 8 years ago!). MS
> releases Windows NT 3.1 and DOS 6.0
MS DOS 5.0A and Windows 3.1(1) were the first really worthwhile OS
that came out of MS.
> 1994: Apple launches the PowerMac line of computers. MS releases Windows NT
> 3.5 (this is where NT really caught on).
[snip]
This was possibly the best OS that MS ever released. Windows NT 4
went backwards by putting the video drivers into the kernel, for
extra speed, at the cost of making the kernel far less stable.
Nothing that MS has released since has greatly improved on
Windows NT 3.5, and except for the lack of support for USB, there
was no good reason really to change it.
Windows 2000 (i.e. Windows NT 5) at core is not much changed from
Windows NT 3. And XP just has a few knobs on.
> And to put it all in perspective, let's not forget that IBM launched it's
> very first electronic computer, the 701, way back in 1953 ;)
[snip]
Not a bad summary.
Probably want the Atlas in there somewhere, as I understand that
had just about all the main hardware features of modern machines
since it.
> > Now, what wories me, is that most of the software and OSs we are
> > using could have been written in 1984, if they had that much
> > storage and disc to throw away on them! And the hardware has got
> > a 1000x faster and is 1000x capacity over that period. Scary.
>
> But PC makers are still using tin boxes with cards in them like they did
> when they started, like glorified HeathKits! The Barbarians! Get out of the
> stone age!
The fact that you can still use ISA cards that worked in the IBM
PC-AT is not a bad thing. I quite like nice and solid tin boxes!
[grin] If you want the hardware to be at least a little bit
upgradable by ham-fisted users you have to make things pretty
sturdy, and not too small.
Personally, I dislike the idea of having to throw away things
because it is not worth upgrading or repairing them.
I suspect that the average obsolete boomer might agree with that
viewpoint... [grin]
> > The next big challenge area still looks like space, along with
> > making sense of the tsunami of information. Then there are AIs,
> > making sensible use of biotech, and at least microtech or even
> > nanotech... "May you live in interesting times."
>
> It will be the end of the innocence. To very roughly paraphrase Ian Malcom
> from Jurassic Park, "You were so busy worrying about whether you could do
> this, you forgot to ask if you should do this".
>
> Who's steering this planet anyway?
If it needed to be steered, we would have got in a lot of trouble
quite a long time ago! [grin]
Unless you are a conspiracy theorist, that is...
Not sure what you mean by the "end of the innocence". Man has had
serious ecological impact for thousands of years; the British
moorlands were created by man, and possibly so was the Sahara.
If you mean that we cannot assume anymore (not that we really
ever could) that the planet can soak up and not be damaged by
anything we do to it...
I am greatly encouraged by the fact that people seem to be
thinking about the consequences of what they are doing far more
these days. War anywhere is regarded as a bad thing, not just the
inconvenient ones that interfere with your trade. And because
human rights violations happen to be in the next country that is
no reason to ignore them (my father was local chairman of our
Amnesty International group).
Maybe human rights for AIs like boomers will be at least thought
about before things go so disasterously wrong as in BGC.
> >>> I am also impressed by the way that you in MegaTokyo timeline
> >>> 2033 have such a good grasp of early 21stC US TV. You must be
> >>> running some very good cultural contextual database systems on
> >>> your workshop Macs! [grin]
> >>
> >> Heh ;)
> >>
> >> When things are slow at the garage (yeah right) I'll slip back into your
> >> time and buy up a bunch of old Macs to be hot-rodded when I get back.
> >
> > Never owned a Mac myself, though the Newton looked really
> > interesting. My impression of them over other mini and mainframe
> > systems I worked on was that you had to work a lot harder to
> > develop software for them, though it was often worth it.
>
> Well, I could say that *I* think Macs are better machines because the
> engineers who built them just seemed to take the time to do it right the
> first time (no Y2K problem for example), and things are much more logical
> and efficient. But then again that would be logic as seen through my eyes.
> What is logical through your eyes, or anyone else's? Mr. Spock made the
> whole logical thang look way too easy.
Well, I vary my viewpoint and logic depending on what I am about.
Or if I am just Dreaming...
PCs suffered for many years as they were basically jumped-up
games machines (the first shipped had a cassette interface and
Basic in ROM), and carefully chosen so as to be low enough power
to not impact on IBM's range of minicomputers.
There was a $2000 M68000 box that IBM had at the same time that
was allegedly not really seen for that reason. And, the joys of
the 8088 and 8086 with their 1Mb memory limit, and MS DOS even
though it was a CP/M rip-off stupidly assuming "no one will ever
need more than 640k", though CP/M did not have that problem.
Macs suffered because they did not have memory protection and
preemptive multitasking, even though all but the first of their
processors would have allowed it. They also did not have clean
enough interfaces, APIs, designed so that they were language
independant. The Mac hardware was always pretty good, though, but
you could argue it should have had more modularity and expansion
possibilities.
Ease of use was always the Macs strong point; they were not as
friendly to programmers.
> >> They
> >> just seem to last a lot longer than windows-base PCs. I'll bet you didn't
> >> know I have an Apple ][ running ravensgarage.com?
> >
> > My first real computer (rather than experimental kit) was a BBC
> > Micro, which was inspired by the Apple. It was the first micro
> > that gave you the capabilities of a minicomputer, with colour
> > graphics, a powerful and approachable programming language, and
> > with twin floppys and a dot matrix printer pretty impressive.
>
> Is it still running? I have 5 Apple ]['s all in working order :)
It might be... It went to a local school a few years ago, as I
was no longer making use of it, and I don't like to have things
around that it doesn't look as will be used any more.
> > If you were using an Apple ][ to run ravensgarage.com, I think
> > your memory bank switching hardware would be getting pretty
> > hot...
>
> Fans. BIG fans. And some other stuff I can't talk about.
>
> Just kidding!
Some BBSs ran on 8-bit micros, but I never heard of anyone trying
to run a web site on one. An Amstrad PCW 8512 (Z80-based, 0.5Mb,
CP/M) with a hard drive and a serial port fitted might be
capable, but...
> >> Dr. Raven (It's a Mac Plus... just kidding again <g>)
> >
> > Let's see... M68000... Stuff 16M RAM into it. Should do!
>
> Heh ;) Cheers indeed!
>
>
> Dr. Raven
Cheers, Rory.
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
John C. Watson <johnc...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>in article 9t3ofv$4...@flatland.dimensional.com, Ben "The Cyber-Terrorist"
>Cantrick at mackys...@dim.com wrote on 11/16/2001 14:13:
>
>>http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/content/2001-10/MachGunShoot/000shoot.html
>> which is still exceptionally clean.
>
>FYI: the full auto shotgun is a USAS-12, and the machine guns on the twin
>mount are either German MG-42s, or their descendents, the MG-1/MG-2/MG-3s.
Thanks, I've updated the page.
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
"The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent." -Keynes
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
Dr. Raven <drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote:
>I missed the original post O_o
>So who's this Ben?
>http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/content/2001-10/MachGunShoot/008.jpg
Pauline Koh (Pa-chan to her friends), my current girlfriend. Not a very
flattering picture, I'm afraid.
http://www.geocities.com/kyubikitsune/Pa-Chan1145.jpg is a bit better.
Oh yeah, while you're poking around there, don't miss the "DotCOMmie"
picture: http://www.geocities.com/kyubikitsune/dotcommie.jpg . My friend
still has this piece of cardboard in his apartment. It's part of a sled
from a "build a cardboard sled and slide it down a ski slope" contest
that happens in the ski resort towns in Colorado every year. A group of
friends of mine decided to go as "Dot Commies". I came up with the
dot-commie idea, but couldn't participate in the sledding. It cracks
me up every time I see that thing. They did a great job. We should hang
THAT in the Boulder public library, instead of the ceramic penis art that
keeps getting stolen.[1]
Anyway, this is a.f.bgc, not alt.ben-cantrick.ego-trip.ego-trip.ego-trip,
so I'll shut up now. ;]
-Ben
-----
[1] You think I'm making this shit up, don't you? Not even! This is Boulder!
http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/current/GenitalFlap.html
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
"Cow have mercy. Roach have mercy. Cow have mercy." -cDc
ANS709
>THAT in the Boulder public library, instead of the ceramic penis art that
>keeps getting stolen.
that's been entertaining to read about, eh Ben? ;)
Amanda
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
Boulder is a total nuthouse. I think that's why I (usually) enjoy living
here. The antics of, well, just about everything in this city is an
endless source of amusement.
-Ben "On second thought, let's not go to Boulder. 'Tis a silly place." Cantrick
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
ANS709
>>>THAT in the Boulder public library, instead of the ceramic penis art that
>>>keeps getting stolen.
>>
>>that's been entertaining to read about, eh Ben? ;)
>
> Boulder is a total nuthouse. I think that's why I (usually) enjoy living
>here. The antics of, well, just about everything in this city is an
>endless source of amusement.
>
not to mention the thief's calling card...."El Dildo Bandito was here"...what
fun this event has been XD
Amanda
Adam Jones
> Typical. You try to say something nice about something, and somebody
> else uses it as the jumping-off point to rip on something else.
> Usenet must be destroyed.
Quick! Somebody call the Tourist Guy!
--
Adam Jones (ad...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
.oO("[Remember, tentacle rape is my favorite...]" )
PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
C. A. Reed Jr.
So, Amanda, where are you kepping this collection of 'Art' that you've aquired?
^_^
(Craig gets pummeled by a mallet-weilding Amanda, who is yelling 'Craig No
Baka!' and 'DYO!')
Craig
C. A. Reed Jr.- drop everything after.com to Email
http://members.aol.com/trboturtle (Updated 5/29/01)
http://www.geocities.com/trboturtle -- My Fanfics (Opened 5/29/01)
http://pub29.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2453643558&cpv=1
Thorn
"Ben "The Cyber-Terrorist" Cantrick" <mackys...@dim.com> wrote in
message news:9tbhcp$s...@flatland.dimensional.com...
> In article <B81D5C57.6027%drr...@ravensgarage.com>,
> Dr. Raven <drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote:
> >I missed the original post O_o
> >So who's this Ben?
> >http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/content/2001-10/MachGunShoot/008.jpg
>
> Pauline Koh (Pa-chan to her friends), my current girlfriend. Not a very
> flattering picture, I'm afraid.
> http://www.geocities.com/kyubikitsune/Pa-Chan1145.jpg is a bit better.
>
> Oh yeah, while you're poking around there, don't miss the "DotCOMmie"
> picture: http://www.geocities.com/kyubikitsune/dotcommie.jpg . My friend
> still has this piece of cardboard in his apartment. It's part of a sled
> from a "build a cardboard sled and slide it down a ski slope" contest
> that happens in the ski resort towns in Colorado every year. A group of
> friends of mine decided to go as "Dot Commies". I came up with the
> dot-commie idea, but couldn't participate in the sledding. It cracks
> me up every time I see that thing. They did a great job. We should hang
> THAT in the Boulder public library, instead of the ceramic penis art that
> keeps getting stolen.[1]
Speaking of penises, why did you cover up your own with that towel when you
took the picture?
- Thorn, keeping a straight face, just.
Ben The Cyber-Terrorist Cantrick
Thorn <luke_...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>Speaking of penises, why did you cover up your own with that towel when you
>took the picture?
> - Thorn, keeping a straight face, just.
Allllrighty then... and why would I be pointing my dick at the dot-commie
cardboard? I like it, but not THAT much! ;D
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the AnimEigo BGC dubs still suck.
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Ben's Irregular: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/irregular/
"Making these films is a lot cheaper than therapy." -Kevin Smith