RenFaires:"Historical Ignorance"?
The Dark Polish Prince
will start off with a bang, so, please allow me to 'vent' (what
else is new...)
Name is Rik Fox, some of you might know me as a member of the
Royal Spanish Court, doing most of the other independent faires
outside of RPFS...
In persuing my family ancestry, (and being the son of the
Director of Heraldry for the Polish Nobility Assn., It BEHOOVES
me to research, & follow through with the establishment of my
'Historical' character...
I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
I have a saying..."Nothing brings out the historically Ignorant,
like a RenFaire"...
By this I mean, that when I am dressed in a historically
'CORRECT' costume of the CORRECT timeline...I find myself
surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
"Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
and, Hey! a Russian!"
Just because I wear a fur hat, with eagle feathers, and a long
red zhoupan (like a tunic WITH a large WHITE Polish Eagle), and
carry a karabella szabla (Polish sabre), I keep running into all
the 'historically ignorant...
It seem that most (I said MOST), of the faire participants, only
research ONLY THEIR country of representation, and not much
else...
Even most, if not all Scots have NO CLUE as to the LONG and
Strong alliance between Scotland and Poland...(BOTH lived and
fought under the Clan system)...
Here's the facts: During the 16-17th centuries, Poland was THE
Largest Democratic Empire in the WORLD!!!
Her borders stretched from the Baltic coast, to the Black Sea,
from Austria, to Moscow...Poland also had MORE Nobles in Poland,
than ALL of Europe COMBINED!!!
Now let me bring you the the famous Winged Hussars...Largely
schock troops, as mounted cavalry, with their resplendant 'Wings'
attached to the back of their light armor, which 'borrowed' from
some Eastern influence, imagine, if you will, some 3-4 Thousand
of these knights at full charge, the pounding of the horses
hooves, the wind whipping thru their Wings, and thru their 8 foot
pennons on thier lances, and imagine the terror experienced by
the enemy, such as the Turks at Vienna, in 1683, when King Jan
III Sobieski, completely 'Routed' the Turks, and sent them
'running'...
How come no one remembers THAT!? I spent countless hours
researching my topic of interest...
Why must I continually keep experiencing those at Faire who
haven't got a clue, and result in just making stupid comments?...
If you don't know...THEN A-S-K!!! I'll be happy to tell you all
about it, only PLEASE!!! T-H-I-N-K before you speak...I don't
walk around faire, and ask a Swiss infantryman if he's English,
and I don't call an obvious Scot, an Italian...
Please...DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!! And thank you for letting me
vent...INTELLIGENT replys are MOST welcome, all others...You
shouldn't even be breathing Renfaire air... Next time you see me
at Faire...just nod, say hi, ask, but ask CAREFULLY...Thanks
again, for your patience.
Sincerely, Rik Fox.Polish Prince,
and Captain of the Flagship, of His Royal Majesty,
King Phillip of Spain.
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Lyonesse
RUNNING::
HeeHee, ok, that's out of my system now... You still love me, right Rik?
:)
I think to vent at AFR is to target the wrong group... we-here tend to
be very interested in history and learning new factoids and tidbits
where we can (and let me just tell the general public here that I had no
idea what a winged Hussar was either, until Rik sat me down and got me
all hooked on Polish history.. you should see his books). I think who
you really need to be venting at/about is everyone *else*. Having spent
extensive amounts of time with you while in costume, I know whereof you
speak. No one ever asks... they just assume.
If it makes you feel better... (and we've had this conversation before),
people generally can't tell a Frenchman from a Spaniard or a Scotsman
from an Irishman either. Give them an outfit that doesn't look like
*any* of that and they'll just make assumptions.. that is, they'll go
with the closest association they can think of. The American public is
apalling uneducated when it comes to History. We have the lowest amount
of general knowledge in the world. Ever watched "Jay Walking" on the
Tonight show? Your average American can't pick Thomas Jefferson out of a
line-up... much less locate Poland on a map. Sad, but true.
We'd all like to think that everyone who does RenFaire is there because
they want to recreate history and that thay've all spent as many hours
as we have researching their personas/groups/whatever. Sadly... that's
not the case. I was speaking to someone at RPFS the other day who was a
PARTICIPANT of the faire. This unnamed person actually asked me why
there was a Queen at RPFS, when everyone knows that women weren't ever
allowed to rule. I just shook my head and walked away.
People are, as a rule, ignorant about history that seems "obscure". Yes,
Poland was a major force in history, etc, etc... but no one learns that
in school when they talk about the Renaissance. I'd hazard to say that
the first time the average student hears about Poland is in reference to
WWII.
For what it's worth I and MANY others applaud your research, your
attention to detail, and your AMAZING outfit. Ignore the people who
think you're Vlad. Even if you sat them down and beat them with a book
about the Hussars, they'd *still* think you were Vlad. Even when you get
teh wings and the war horse, people will think you're Vlad, or some
Viking messenger from Valhalla. They just *will*.
Maybe you should just make up little business cards with the quick &
dirty about Prince Ryzard? Then you could just hand them out - serving
the two-fold purpose of reducing your aggravation and providing some
education.
Hmmm - that just may be an idea there.
Whew... where'd this soapbox come from? ;-)
--
alla aardvark,
Lyonesse
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Tyma's one and only Irascible Sidekick
Posey Pikeswallow, the Frolicsome Fishwife (RPFS 2K)
THE Water Wench of the Spanish Court
AG #025
Ren Geek! Wench-Jade #752 Bard #037
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Nikita, Witch of the North. WARG!
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High Priestess to the Goddess of Freaks
Official Member of the Benevolent Ruler Clique
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For AFR FAQ's click on http://member.aol.com/jmcathcart/afr.html
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You must steal my ROAR to e-mail me
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"A girl can wait for the right man to come along, but in the meantime
that doesn't mean she still can't have a wonderful time with all the
wrong ones." -Cher
P.P.W.H.W.H. - She who wears plaid with PRIDE!!
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
"Ignorance Police. I'm afraid we're going to have to run you in for
being stupid."
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Steve Rourke
Sports catalog has an article on the Hussars, and there is an exihibit
currently running in a museum in Tulsa OK that has some examples of the
armour they wore as well as other Polish artifacts.
--
Steve Rourke aka Alaric Gallowglass
Flailing Hornet
More to be added someday ( I hope )
Bard # 144
ICQ # 45010868 AIM: PhnxFlig
The opportunity to do better tomorrow than you
did today is a privilege - and a duty. ---Robert
Sharon L. Krossa
> It seem that most (I said MOST), of the faire participants, only
> research ONLY THEIR country of representation, and not much
> else...
> Even most, if not all Scots have NO CLUE as to the LONG and
> Strong alliance between Scotland and Poland...(BOTH lived and
> fought under the Clan system)...
Well, this may be because most of those playing Scots at ren. fairs play
Gaels, and Scottish Gaels didn't actually have all that much to do with
Poland. Lowland merchants, on the other hand... Well, let's just say the
Poles kept complaining about all the Scots peddlars overrunning their
country ;-) Scottish international trading ports did good business with
Polish ports and there were also a fair number of Scots who essentially
emmigrated to Poland and set up as merchants there, either in the ports
or going inland. But this is the sort of thing that town people might
have known about in period, but your average country Scot (Lowland or
Gael) probably wouldn't have reason to know.
In other words, in many cases it is historically accurate for a fair
character to not know about anything but their own country (and even
then to not know much except about their own corner of their own
country, with a few exceptions, like that the Spanish are all nasty
Papists and the like...)
[But as long as we're complaining that people don't know much about
other countries, may I complain that even many of those playing Poles
have NO CLUE that not all period Scots "lived and fought under the Clan
system", even though most of the Scots period Poles would have
encountered had nothing to do with clans? ;-)]
....
> Now let me bring you the the famous Winged Hussars...Largely
> schock troops, as mounted cavalry, with their resplendant 'Wings'
> attached to the back of their light armor, which 'borrowed' from
> some Eastern influence, imagine, if you will, some 3-4 Thousand
> of these knights at full charge, the pounding of the horses
> hooves, the wind whipping thru their Wings, and thru their 8 foot
> pennons on thier lances, and imagine the terror experienced by
> the enemy, such as the Turks at Vienna, in 1683, when King Jan
> III Sobieski, completely 'Routed' the Turks, and sent them
> 'running'...
>
> How come no one remembers THAT!? I spent countless hours
> researching my topic of interest...
Well, cause the local Scots and English in the 16th century won't ever
have seen it, much less cared?
> Why must I continually keep experiencing those at Faire who
> haven't got a clue, and result in just making stupid comments?...
> If you don't know...THEN A-S-K!!! I'll be happy to tell you all
> about it, only PLEASE!!! T-H-I-N-K before you speak...I don't
> walk around faire, and ask a Swiss infantryman if he's English,
> and I don't call an obvious Scot, an Italian...
Why should local yokels in an English backwater village (or equivelent
for other fairs) have any clue where you're from? I rather think they
*should* make stupid guesses, though, of course, those stupid guesses
should be true to the character!
I'm all for historical accuracy at fairs (as any who've read my past
posts will have guessed ;-), but that doesn't mean that everyone should
know everything about everyone who shows up. Different characters are
going to have different levels of knowledge about the world, and those
interested in historical accuracy should determine how much (or how
little) their character would know and behave accordingly.
Sharon
PS I quite sympathize with the frustrations of studying a subject few
know about, much less study seriously! Just count your blessings -- at
least most of the time you're dealing with simple absence of knowledge,
rather than presense of misinformation! :-)
--
Sharon L. Krossa, kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu
Medieval Scotland: http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names is
The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Anne Frates/Richard Michalski
together at Dave and Busters of invasion? I remember having this exact
conversation with ...someone...who was surprised that I knew about the
Polish riders....but I don't remember seeing you at RPFS itself.
color me confused (too many new names...)
Queen Maggie
> It seem that most (I said MOST), of the faire participants, only
> research ONLY THEIR country of representation, and not much
> else...
> Even most, if not all Scots have NO CLUE as to the LONG and
> Strong alliance between Scotland and Poland...(BOTH lived and
> fought under the Clan system)...
> Here's the facts: During the 16-17th centuries, Poland was THE
> Largest Democratic Empire in the WORLD!!!
> Her borders stretched from the Baltic coast, to the Black Sea,
> from Austria, to Moscow...Poland also had MORE Nobles in Poland,
> than ALL of Europe COMBINED!!!
>
> Now let me bring you the the famous Winged Hussars...Largely
> schock troops, as mounted cavalry, with their resplendant 'Wings'
> attached to the back of their light armor, which 'borrowed' from
> some Eastern influence, imagine, if you will, some 3-4 Thousand
> of these knights at full charge, the pounding of the horses
> hooves, the wind whipping thru their Wings, and thru their 8 foot
> pennons on thier lances, and imagine the terror experienced by
> the enemy, such as the Turks at Vienna, in 1683, when King Jan
> III Sobieski, completely 'Routed' the Turks, and sent them
> 'running'...
>
> How come no one remembers THAT!? I spent countless hours
> researching my topic of interest...
> Why must I continually keep experiencing those at Faire who
> haven't got a clue, and result in just making stupid comments?...
> If you don't know...THEN A-S-K!!! I'll be happy to tell you all
> about it, only PLEASE!!! T-H-I-N-K before you speak...I don't
> walk around faire, and ask a Swiss infantryman if he's English,
> and I don't call an obvious Scot, an Italian...
>
Anne Frates/Richard Michalski
last year...either at the Smithsonian, or perhaps the Walter's in
Baltimore. (I don't keep track of *where* I see this stuff)
Queen Maggie
Chas
>
> I think that must be the same exhibit that was on display out East here
> last year...either at the Smithsonian, or perhaps the Walter's in
> Baltimore. (I don't keep track of *where* I see this stuff)
> Queen Maggie
>
There was an exhibit at one of the museums in Balboa Park in San Diego
this winter, but we didn't get a chance to see it (-humph!). I suppose
it has moved on by now.
Chas
--
MacGregor Games
Purveyors of historic pastimes to re-enactors around the world
http://www.historicgames.com
Chas
>
>
> By this I mean, that when I am dressed in a historically
> 'CORRECT' costume of the CORRECT timeline...I find myself
> surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
> All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
> "Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
> and, Hey! a Russian!"
> Just because I wear a fur hat, with eagle feathers, and a long
> red zhoupan (like a tunic WITH a large WHITE Polish Eagle), and
> carry a karabella szabla (Polish sabre), I keep running into all
> the 'historically ignorant...
Several times when I was wearing a great kilt I was asked by patrons if
I was German?!?! I should add it to the dumb comments by patrons I've
been collecting at
http://www.historicgames.com/dumbquest/DumbQindex.html
>
> It seem that most (I said MOST), of the faire participants, only
> research ONLY THEIR country of representation, and not much
> else...
> Even most, if not all Scots have NO CLUE as to the LONG and
> Strong alliance between Scotland and Poland...(BOTH lived and
> fought under the Clan system)...
Not all Scots! Clann Tartan (aka Col. Gaffney's Regt.) at MNRF used to
portray a recruiting party for Stewart's Regiment which served as
mercenaries in the Low Countries in the 1570's and later served in
Poland.
Bestine
rik_fox...@yahoo.com.invalid most eloquently proclaimed...
>
<Snippety Snip>
>I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
>expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
>Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
>I have a saying..."Nothing brings out the historically Ignorant,
>like a RenFaire"...
>
>By this I mean, that when I am dressed in a historically
>'CORRECT' costume of the CORRECT timeline...I find myself
>surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
>All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
>"Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
>and, Hey! a Russian!"
Look at the bright side. You're not constantly being warned to "keep your
head." Oh boy...just try playing *any* of King Henry VIII's queens or
sisters (am I right, Queen Maggie?).
OTOH, seems like your equipage is doing half your work for you... If your
objective is to spread the word about the Winged Hussars, the biggest
hurdle is getting the opening to do so. Sounds as if you're getting
openings the size of Mack Trucks. Go, baby, go!!!
--
Bestine
Cordelia of Sarcastica...she who brought hands across America
(or was that she who was handled across America?)
Ren.Geek
Anne Frates/Richard Michalski
At least once a day I get asked if I'm worried about "getting your head
chopped off"
Which is a little better than having teens stand in a circle and try to
make you lose your character as they ask if you "know what a ....TV,
car, camera, plane, computer, watch,etc, is"
Then there's the time someone got mad cause I wouldn't let him lift my
skirt to show his girlfriend the farthingale...he snuck up from behind,
too!
But Bestine is right; these are always the "teachable moments"
Queen Maggie
Barry Houlehen
The Dark Polish Prince wrote:
> Please...DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!! And thank you for letting me
> vent...INTELLIGENT replys are MOST welcome, all others...You
> shouldn't even be breathing Renfaire air... Next time you see me
> at Faire...just nod, say hi, ask, but ask CAREFULLY...Thanks
> again, for your patience.
The Renaissance Faire isn't a history exam. It's an event, a place to have fun.
If this stuff really bothers you that much, maybe you're taking it a little too
seriously.
Lighten up.
...Barry.
Violet Tigress
Prince <rik_fox...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> Greetings fellow Faire-goers, This is my first posting, and it
> will start off with a bang, so, please allow me to 'vent' (what
> else is new...)
> Name is Rik Fox,
Greetings Rik. Welcome to the madness that is AFR.
> some of you might know me as a member of the
> Royal Spanish Court, doing most of the other independent faires
> outside of RPFS...
>
you probably know me....uh-oh. ^_^ The infamous Miss Kitty. *curtsy* The
woman with the cat staff who's always looiking for trouble.
> In persuing my family ancestry, (and being the son of the
> Director of Heraldry for the Polish Nobility Assn., It BEHOOVES
> me to research, & follow through with the establishment of my
> 'Historical' character...
> I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
> expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
> Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
> I have a saying..."Nothing brings out the historically Ignorant,
> like a RenFaire"...
>
> By this I mean, that when I am dressed in a historically
> 'CORRECT' costume of the CORRECT timeline...I find myself
> surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
> All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
> "Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
> and, Hey! a Russian!"
Welcome to California. At my highschool, 1995 was the last year of the
Geography requirement for graduuation.The average patron isn't an expert
on history & probably hasn't studied much beyond their schoolbooks. I
don't know about you but my schooolbooks kind of tuurned me off to
history.
> Just because I wear a fur hat, with eagle feathers, and a long
> red zhoupan (like a tunic WITH a large WHITE Polish Eagle), and
> carry a karabella szabla (Polish sabre), I keep running into all
> the 'historically ignorant...
>
> It seem that most (I said MOST), of the faire participants, only
> research ONLY THEIR country of representation, and not much
> else...
Probably true
> Even most, if not all Scots have NO CLUE as to the LONG and
> Strong alliance between Scotland and Poland...(BOTH lived and
> fought under the Clan system)...
<snip happen. Deal.>
> How come no one remembers THAT!? I spent countless hours
> researching my topic of interest...
Well, good. Lots of people don't.
Miss Kitty
--
Violet Tigress
Official RenGeek
Miss Kitty of Amblefolke...that's Mistress Kitty to you
"Oh, you can't help that...we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
-- Cheshire Cat
http://www.cruznet.net/~athena
SSmith9013
I am a newbie to renfaires(to the NG too). I am a history buff, 1900 to 1920.
I exhibit my antique farm engines, equipment and blacksmithing at antique
farming shows and other events(17 yrs). We get asked the same questions over
and over and over and over... But thats what we are there for, because if I
see the light in just one persons eyes that makes the hard work and long days
of prep worth it, especially the kids.
Enjoy the knowledge you possess and be happy you have the abiity and chance
to inpart it to others.
Newbie
Steve
Past edu
Feel free at all events to properly introduce yourself (our have someone else
do so ) to the other historical charactewrs you meet so that they too can share
your research and they theirs. not everyone is knowledgable on all the history
and politics of the times. Some actually just come to play.
You said
>I have a saying..."Nothing brings out the historically Ignorant,
>like a RenFaire"...
>
I must let you know that "Nothing brings out Arrogance like a RenFaire either"
Phyr Elf
>Name is Rik Fox, some of you might know me as a member of the
>Royal Spanish Court, doing most of the other independent faires
>outside of RPFS...
>I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
>expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
>Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
>I find myself
>surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
>All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
>"Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
>and, Hey! a Russian!"
>
I applaud your research.
Faires wouldn't be wonderful places they are, without people going into
tremendous effort with regard to historical accuracy.
BUT -
I think maybe you should let the general populace off the hook somewhat.
Why?
Do you realise how much history there IS out there? It's mind boggling, and
lets face it - History isn't everyone's favourite hobby, and thats what it
becomes after you've left the supportive web of academia (for most people
anyway).
Looking at it another way -
Speaking as an English peasant - I come from a working class town, who's
inhabitants have a dry wit, a Masters in blistering sarcasm, and a tendancy to
use both when they see something out of the ordinary.
(Remembering my black lipstick days - oh the ridicule!!)
I have no doubt, that the overall personality of our town's ancestors, has not
changed one jot since the Renaissance - and probably before that! (The place's
humble beginnings are even listed in the Domesday Book of 1086 - (hope I got
the date right there) ) .
Sounds to me like you got let off lightly there, mate.
::grin::
Those who passed comments were probably just peasants acting "in character", so
don't worry about it.
I can understand you getting a bit miffed after all your research, that some
people will write you off as some "cartoon" character, and not have the decency
to ask a little more about it.
C'est la vie, que sera sera.
Okay - on to a serious note - and this is where I display my utter lack of
knowledge on Polish/Spanish history.
Question - what the heck is a member of the Polish Winged Hussars doing in the
Court of the King of Spain??
Enquiring minds would like to know...
-------<~>--------
Jan
Wench # 642
Bard # 70
It's not a coffin - it's storage box for my deviancy
Keeper of the WOLOF
Tribal Chief
Shagadelidelish of Sarcastica, She who watches where the wild ones are wild
Past edu
Linda Underhill
Scott Russell
character isn't recognizable from forty yards away, it's because it was a bad
choice theatrically.
Not ashamed to admit that I have no freaking clue what a Winged Hussar is. And
I did pretty well in history.
A side note. Although the general populace of patrons at faire are NOT well
versed in history (another reason to pick a character that is not as obscure as
a footnote), I do have a suprising number who, when they find out I am
Christopher Marlowe say something as witty as "You've got something in your
eye."
Scott Russell, scribe, player
the "Pete Best" of Sound & Fury
Huzzah for the Arch & Quiver Inn
sc...@soundandfury.org
RenGeek
patric...@my-deja.com
clued in.
Consider that a "renaissance faire" encompasses a period of time. Now,
sure, some fella showing up in period American indian garb - that's
pretty recognizable (has anyone seen the Indian in the Cupboard?
Apparently he must have gotten back in, hasn't been out this year). How
about zulu garb? Didn't change much over the years, people are going ot
figure that out. Middle Eastern, ditto, Spanish, Italian, French, ditto,
all those confused people in kilts, ditto (n.b. I recall a group of them
used to yell "Erin go bragh" when in a large group last year. I didn't
have the heart to tell them that didn't really come about until 1910 or
so. . . but we've all made bonehead mistakes when we start out. I
noticed they don't do that anymore).
But then you get to Eastern Europe, and to mis-quote Sons of Anacreon,
"They've been on more laps than a napkin." EVERYONE has had Poland.
Poland has invaded and been invaded more times than I've chummed in the
privy, and while that's not a lot, it's still a significant number. (The
liver transplant is coming along very nicely, thanks!)
Poland is the highway to the Rus. Pity about that September 1939
business (but those were tanks, for God's sake, you can't kill them with
a lance). I hear the Poles even had pretty good aircraft for those two
weeks they managed to hold off the Germans. But I digress.
You show up in a costume which looks vaguely Russian. Fur hat? Must be
Russian. (This has to be making you boiling mad). But like any
character at fair, no one knows or cares who you are. You have to make
them know and care. Otherwise, you're another weird person in a costume.
The difference between you and me is I have twenty other guys in the
same costume who will sound off about what we are. If you're around us
long enough, you're going to hear our title dropped. It's not obvious,
like walking up and saying "Hey, man, look at me. I'm _______".
Bor-ing. End of gig.
You've got tons of knowledge about something that is pretty obscure. If
people want to know about THAT, they'll look at your website. You did
put all that information on your website to share? But the fact is, you
might get ONE person all day who will come up to you and say, "great
costume, what are you supposed to be?" and want to listen to the reply.
In the meantime, think about ways to gig with folks. What's a polish guy
doing in England (or whatever the locale of the fair is) anyway? You
need to create some convoluted backstory to make it make sense. You
might as well come in a fairy costume for all the connection it has to
what's going on. It's bad enough trying to establish a "norm" for folks
to learn from without skewing it with hundreds of costumes from other
eras and countries. People have trouble grasping what the English are
supposed to be, nevermind the Italians, Spanish, Germans, Dutch, Greeks,
Egyptians, Arabs, Basque, French, Native Americans, Swedish, Scots,
Irish, and assorted sundry others who wander about.
Aren't you glad there won't be a pop quiz on what my character is about?
Not that it really matters if you know squat about the Yeomen of the
Guard- it doesn't. Lots of people get their education based on Gilbert
and Sullivan (shudder) which is horribly and disgustingly wrong (those
were the tower warders, btw). How many times have you walked up to
someone and asked them what they were? I'll bet you probably missed your
guess more times than not. It doesn't help when some folks are just
wrong- their costumes aren't historic, correct, or anything. It's
something someone's fevered mind created in a fit of creativity.
(I bet someone gets really offended at the above. :-)
Matt Bowes
Patrick Forbes, Valecti Garde Domini Regina
Queen's Bodygard of the Yeomen of the Guard
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
B4BRVHRT
>
>>Name is Rik Fox, some of you might know me as a member of the
>>Royal Spanish Court, doing most of the other independent faires
>>outside of RPFS...
Well Met.
>>I find myself
>>surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
>>All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
>>"Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
>>and, Hey! a Russian!"
Instead of getting a *tude* about it educate them, not everyone has the same
enthusiasm for overall history, they like one area and learn all they can in
what interests them much like you did.
They won't know or learn if you don't teach them. And try not to get so uptight
about it, there is so much more to life than getting uptight about that which
you cannot control, but can change.
:)
And welcome to AFR.
Lady Kathleen Of Skirvine
IWG#727 *The Flying Wench*
BrassKat/turtletwin
http://members.aol.com/b4brvhrt/Kathleen.html
Bookend One of Two
(You will be assimilated)
Clan MacHolstein.. moooooooo
Wicked Wench Of The West
Repeatyabeatya of Sarcastica
Steven Leon
>Welcome to California. At my highschool, 1995 was the last year of the
>Geography requirement for graduuation.The average patron isn't an expert
>on history & probably hasn't studied much beyond their schoolbooks. I
>don't know about you but my schooolbooks kind of tuurned me off to
>history.
>
Keep in mind too that most history the 'average patron' know about have
been gleaned from Hollywood and movies. Look at Elizabeth (ugh!)
Anyway,
Since about 90% of faire participants play lower classes, you cannot expect
those who have lived their entire lives in a village or town to know of
anything outside their particular area. Especially if they are the
xenphobic English. Those who probably would know would be those who either
have studied or travelled. Hence those who have the money to do so. Can't
expect the average peasant to even know the history of the Dudley
house.....
Cheers!
Steven Leon
Captain Sir Martin "Oh, What a big ship I have" Frobisher (RPFS 2000)
Frob...@guildofstgeorge.com
Scholar of the Rapier - Bankside Schoole of Defense (RPFS)
The best sword, the best shot, the best sailor and the best kisser in England. ;-)
"Her Majesty's loyal Terrier"
English Corsair, Privateer, Freebooter and Gentleman-Adventurer
Joe Shelby
Steven Leon <sirg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Keep in mind too that most history the 'average patron' know about
have
> been gleaned from Hollywood and movies. Look at Elizabeth (ugh!)
heck, keep in mind that most history Hollywood movies know about have
been gleaned from Hollywood and movies. Look at Braveheart (ok, it was
a decent film...still sucked as far as history goes...)
Joe
James Sweetland
> I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
> expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
> Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
> like a RenFaire"...
Well, since you asked--
I am no expert on the topic, but I *thought* the "costume" as
you describe didn't exist during the Tudor period (1475-1603),
which is the period of most renfaires I am familiar with.
Others have also noted that, in period (say 1450-1700), the vast
majority of people would have known little beyond their own locality.
Admittedly, thanks to increased literacy and some improvements in
printing technology (starting, of course, with printing itself),
gradually books of travel and geography were getting around, but
this would have been slow going at the time.
Or, it's fairly much in character for most inhabitants of the local
town to be surprised and curious at your getup.
Now, on your bigger point--
I would agree with Maggie, et. al. on the teachable moment.
*Of course* most people at renfaires (like everywhere else) have little
historical knowledge. I have been challenged for wearing spectacles
on the basis that Benjamin Franklin invented them, and asked if
the woman who just rode by in farthingale and ruff is Queen
Elizabeth I or II. (Hell, my son as a TA in film class found about
a quarter of his class thought Birth of a Nation was a documentary
because it was silent, B & W, and a bit grainy).
For those who swing toward the history (vs. fantasy) part of
the faire, one of the major attractions is to use the fun to get
some education in. I know it's frustrating, but things like your
posting here are part of the job. And, your posting was quite
informative, too.--thanks.
I seem to recall a slogan like "History through play" from Phyllis
Patterson.
(I believe it is Thomas Aquinas who argues that the greatest virtue
of the student is "docility". In that vein, I would argue that the
greatest virtue of the teacher is suffering [apparent] fools gladly.
At least the people who are asking the questions have enough interest
to ask)
(thinking of the two guys at MDRF sitting apparently all
day at Middleton's tavern, ogling (and I mean that in the
worst possible way) the serving wenches) "boy, I
*love* the way they dressed in the middle ages". --not
a teachable moment, at least not for history.)
--
James Sweetland, Bristol gamer, AFR deity of knowledge, High Priest of
pushmonkeys, Bard #74, and KinderHunter of Sarcastica, not even children
are safe from wisecracks. Oh, and teacher, too.
Want more information about faire? See http://www.faire.net/SCRIBE/
PAXIMUS
>
>>Sorry, friend. It's your fault, not theirs. This is theater, and if your
character isn't recognizable from forty yards away, it's because it was a bad
choice theatrically.<<
While I will concur that this is theater, i will have to say that the fault
lies on both sides in this gentlemans case. His character is recognizable from
further then forty feet trust me. I believe however, that the problem here is
that Poles of the period dressed a great deal like those people of the Balkans
so, being called Vlad Tepes is inevitable(especially with that moustache and
goatee!!), even though I think, the gentleman dresses a bit later period.
No bad choice here, just has to take the questions in stride and educate the
public thats all.
>
>Not ashamed to admit that I have no freaking clue what a Winged Hussar is.
>And I did pretty well in history.<<
Winged Hussars were a heavy Cavalry unit made up of Polish Nobility that, once
in a full gallop charge were unbreakable (this is an historic fact) incredible
clothing and accoutrements but, by the mid 17th century they became outdated
upon the battlefield and eventually were retired. History Magazine did a great
article about them a few years back.
>
I have seen the gentleman in question, and know him from small faires etc. I
understand the frustration as I have received the same kind of questions and
comments my self over the years.
I would also concur with others that it is our responsibility as performers,
and especially those of us who portray "ethnic" characters, to educate the
patrons as to who we are, and what it is we do. This must be done with patience
and a show of enthusiasm for the culture we enjoy studying and portraying.
Even Scott admits that people have to ask him who and what his character is
before they give him historical references, its no different for anyone else
out there performing.
Buona Fortuna!
James Pax Smith
Don Giulio de Medici
Cavaliere Dell'Ordine de Santo Stefano
Guild of San Lorenzo rpfs
"Piker" so named by Atar
Brenda Baker
patric...@my-deja.com wrote:
> "Consider that a "renaissance faire" encompasses a period of time. Now,
> sure, some fella showing up in period American indian garb "
ok. have to be a pain in the butt and correct you here. It is regalia and
many pieces of a persons regalia have spiritual significance. (an outsider
to native american ways, or even an outsider to an individuals family may
not even know the significance) Off my box now.. just had to educate a
little bit. :-)
Brenda
--
Mirabel
Wench 841
64% Faire Corrupt
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ICQ 4818294
Remove SPAMBLOCK to reply
Yeoman Foxe
>>
>
>all I have to say is.........pink sashes.
>
Bright, barbie-pink sashes....
================
Yeoman Joshua Foxe
Tower Archer
Yeomen of the Guard(RPFS)/Valecti Garde Domini Regina
Lessa
> Okay, did we meet when you were out of garb? Maybe at the Friday get
> together at Dave and Busters of invasion? I remember having this exact
> conversation with ...someone...who was surprised that I knew about the
> Polish riders....but I don't remember seeing you at RPFS itself.
> color me confused (too many new names...)
> Queen Maggie
nope, he didn't attend either event. however you might have seen him onstage
during the queen's show, or in the noble glade. Square built young man, younger
than myself. Looms quite a bit. He was wrestling with some of the yeomen on sat.
of three day.
--
Lessa
Angel of Destruction
Darth Lessa
AG# 023 THE Lessa. There can be only one.
West Coast Sargeant
Nihil Privatus
Redneck Goddess
Yeobabe and pickle bearer
http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/rdnkgddstrailerpark
Just the FAQ'S, Ma'am ---http://members.aol.com/jmcathcart/afr.html
"I please to aim"
Most men say I smother them.
...I say if you can hear them your not pushing on the pillow hard
enough.
"Tolerance is a virtue, and with all of our different ways of saying
it, we are all dancing to the same record."
Eric tQ
"....and with the flick of my wrist, I could change your religion."
Amicule, deliciae, num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
L.E.S.S.A.: Lifeform Engineered for Sabotage and Scientific Assassination
Don't Treat Me Any Differently Than You Would the Queen
Lessa
> che...@hotmail.com (Violet Tigress) wrote:
>
> >Welcome to California. At my highschool, 1995 was the last year of the
> >Geography requirement for graduuation.The average patron isn't an expert
> >on history & probably hasn't studied much beyond their schoolbooks. I
> >don't know about you but my schooolbooks kind of tuurned me off to
> >history.
> >
>
> Keep in mind too that most history the 'average patron' know about have
> been gleaned from Hollywood and movies. Look at Elizabeth (ugh!)
>
all I have to say is.........pink sashes.
--
yaz pistachio
direction as fast as i can. you seem to be singularly unrewarding.
as ever,
lea bob
Elizabeth St. Loe RPFN
"The Dark Polish Prince" <rik_fox...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in
message news:0420963b...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com...
> Greetings fellow Faire-goers, This is my first posting, and it
> will start off with a bang, so, please allow me to 'vent' (what
> else is new...)
> Name is Rik Fox, some of you might know me as a member of the
> Royal Spanish Court, doing most of the other independent faires
> outside of RPFS...
>
> In persuing my family ancestry, (and being the son of the
> Director of Heraldry for the Polish Nobility Assn., It BEHOOVES
> me to research, & follow through with the establishment of my
> 'Historical' character...
> I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
> expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
> Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
> I have a saying..."Nothing brings out the historically Ignorant,
> like a RenFaire"...
>
> By this I mean, that when I am dressed in a historically
> 'CORRECT' costume of the CORRECT timeline...I find myself
> surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
> All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
> "Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
> and, Hey! a Russian!"
> Just because I wear a fur hat, with eagle feathers, and a long
> red zhoupan (like a tunic WITH a large WHITE Polish Eagle), and
> carry a karabella szabla (Polish sabre), I keep running into all
> the 'historically ignorant...
>
> It seem that most (I said MOST), of the faire participants, only
> research ONLY THEIR country of representation, and not much
> else...
> Even most, if not all Scots have NO CLUE as to the LONG and
> Strong alliance between Scotland and Poland...(BOTH lived and
> fought under the Clan system)...
> Here's the facts: During the 16-17th centuries, Poland was THE
> Largest Democratic Empire in the WORLD!!!
> Her borders stretched from the Baltic coast, to the Black Sea,
> from Austria, to Moscow...Poland also had MORE Nobles in Poland,
> than ALL of Europe COMBINED!!!
>
> Now let me bring you the the famous Winged Hussars...Largely
> schock troops, as mounted cavalry, with their resplendant 'Wings'
> attached to the back of their light armor, which 'borrowed' from
> some Eastern influence, imagine, if you will, some 3-4 Thousand
> of these knights at full charge, the pounding of the horses
> hooves, the wind whipping thru their Wings, and thru their 8 foot
> pennons on thier lances, and imagine the terror experienced by
> the enemy, such as the Turks at Vienna, in 1683, when King Jan
> III Sobieski, completely 'Routed' the Turks, and sent them
> 'running'...
>
> How come no one remembers THAT!? I spent countless hours
> researching my topic of interest...
> Why must I continually keep experiencing those at Faire who
> haven't got a clue, and result in just making stupid comments?...
> If you don't know...THEN A-S-K!!! I'll be happy to tell you all
> about it, only PLEASE!!! T-H-I-N-K before you speak...I don't
> walk around faire, and ask a Swiss infantryman if he's English,
> and I don't call an obvious Scot, an Italian...
>
> Please...DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!! And thank you for letting me
> vent...INTELLIGENT replys are MOST welcome, all others...You
> shouldn't even be breathing Renfaire air... Next time you see me
> at Faire...just nod, say hi, ask, but ask CAREFULLY...Thanks
> again, for your patience.
>
> Sincerely, Rik Fox.Polish Prince,
> and Captain of the Flagship, of His Royal Majesty,
> King Phillip of Spain.
>
Amanda the Brazen
>
>> "Consider that a "renaissance faire" encompasses a period of time. Now,
>> sure, some fella showing up in period American indian garb "
>ok. have to be a pain in the butt and correct you here. It is regalia
>and
>many pieces of a persons regalia have spiritual significance.
::hopping up on the soap box with Brenda for a sec::
And speaking as the daughter of two anthropologists and dating another (geez,
you'd think I'd learn by now), the idea of "period American Indian garb" is
laughable. The idea of NA dress that most of America thinks of tends to be the
Plains Indian festival/religious garb/regalia. Just as not everyone in Europe
dressed like English nobility from Good Queen Bess's court, not all Native
Americans dressed like the Western movies. Really, can you imagine running
around a heavily forested area in the middle of the hot muggy summer in the
South in a full feathered head-dress? Uh... no. ::grinning, stepping back down
and returning the NG to its focus on Ren times::
Amanda the Brazen
Wench #1171
The Carpe Noctem Wench
David Bedno
>Steven Leon wrote:
>
>> che...@hotmail.com (Violet Tigress) wrote:
>>
>> >Welcome to California. At my highschool, 1995 was the last year of the
>> >Geography requirement for graduuation.The average patron isn't an expert
>> >on history & probably hasn't studied much beyond their schoolbooks. I
>> >don't know about you but my schooolbooks kind of tuurned me off to
>> >history.
>> >
>>
>> Keep in mind too that most history the 'average patron' know about have
>> been gleaned from Hollywood and movies. Look at Elizabeth (ugh!)
>>
>
>all I have to say is.........pink sashes.
Also keep in mind that the phrase "what comes around, goes around" also
applies to history.
With period dyes you could get shockingly bright pinks, and really
astounding teals. And "Tiffany" is a period name (if you don't mind
being from France).
That's one of the reasons I loved being a pretentious lower-class crier
last northern. I got to wear my peasant clothes that were *all the same
color* (except doublet). That the color was Saffron Yellow (thank you
Dye Spot) was a wonderful bonus...
David, "the same damn thing over and over again"
--
David Bedno http://www.seuss.org drs...@seuss.org
"I have no humble opinions"
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James Sweetland
> > sure, some fella showing up in period American indian garb "
>
> ok. have to be a pain in the butt and correct you here. It is regalia and
> many pieces of a persons regalia have spiritual significance. (an outsider
> to native american ways, or even an outsider to an individuals family may
> not even know the significance)
Not to argue with your reaction, but my guess is that the people
being referred to are in "garb"--it may be based on regalia, but
it isn't. Or, if it is, then what do we do about all those people
dressed in Roman Catholic vestments, Lutheran vestments, Beefeater
uniforms, etc. (Not even going near the wearing of samurai swords,
golden fleece chains and the like).
Appreciate your pointing out the issue, but when people dress up,
especially with a character they don't know intimately, they will
make more than a few faux pas.
--
James Sweetland, Bristol gamer, AFR deity of knowledge, High Priest of
pushmonkeys, Bard #74, and KinderHunter of Sarcastica, not even children
are safe from wisecracks. Proud to be a SCRIBE Associate:
Lyonesse
>
> nope, he didn't attend either event. however you might have seen him onstage
> during the queen's show, or in the noble glade. Square built young man, younger
> than myself. Looms quite a bit. He was wrestling with some of the yeomen on sat.
> of three day.
>
No. That's not Rik. Rik Fox is an FoF member, tall and slim, older than
you are. Long black hair, black moustache and goatee, BRIGHT blue eyes.
And I guarantee you he wasn't wrestling :-)
--
alla aardvark,
Lyonesse
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Lyonesse
>
> frankly, next time i see you at a faire, i plan on running the other
> direction as fast as i can. you seem to be singularly unrewarding.
>
Oh c'mon... was this necessary? Rik is a very nice guy, I count him
among my group of good friends. He's just frustrated. Snide comments
about Vlad The Impaler and Carpathian jokes get *really* old after
awhile. I agree, he's chosen a somewhat obscure character and is bound
to encounter plenty of ignorance... but he's a nice guy who's knows his
stuff and who is attempting to share his vast wealth of knowledge.
Eric tQ
put forth:
>frankly, next time i see you at a faire, i plan on running the other
>direction as fast as i can. you seem to be singularly unrewarding.
(hopping on Lea Bob's post, as it was the only one with his complete
text)
>> By this I mean, that when I am dressed in a historically
>> 'CORRECT' costume of the CORRECT timeline...I find myself
>> surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
>> All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
>> "Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
>> and, Hey! a Russian!"
<snip>
>> If you don't know...THEN A-S-K!!!
It's not someone else's job to ask- it's your job to inform them.
_Politely_!!!
If they ask if you are Russian, or Vlad, or whatever, look at them
down your nose, and reply-
"a mangy Muscovite? Certainly not. I am a Winged Hussar from the
Rzeczpospolita, the great Polish-Lithuanian Empire, the largest state
in Europe, and you would have me as a mongrel crawling through the
filth of Moscow" etc etc (or something along these lines.
Teach them _through_ your character, and use their ignorance as a lead
in.
Do it briefly, and when you find an eager mind, _then_ you start to
regale them with stories of great battles, and the charges of the
knights- just remember, a lot of people won't care that much- that
part is their problem, not yours. You can't expect to change the world
in one weekend- just do it slowly, one mind at a time.
(this is stuff I did with St. Max's- I know most people didn't know
what the Landsknecht where, so I educated them)
Expecting people to already know about the Rzeczpospolita is
ridiculous- unless someone researches it, or went to an incredibly
enlightened school, it's simply not taught. Face it- Polish history in
most of the western world consists of the partitions, the "liberum
veto" (the fact that one nobleman could veto anything), and the German
invasion in 1939- and I doubt most even know of the liberum veto by
name, they just know the idea.
And getting cranky at patrons and participants is going to turn people
off, not get them interested.
(as an aside- I am also fascinated by the Rzeczpospolita, and was
researching a Jewish merchant character from there before I became a
participant, and I share your wonder of this great, though brief,
state.)
.
Eric tQ
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please take out the *TRASH* to respond
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patric...@my-deja.com
Brenda Baker <qtrh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> patric...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > "Consider that a "renaissance faire" encompasses a period of time.
Now,
>
> ok. have to be a pain in the butt and correct you here. It is
regalia and
> many pieces of a persons regalia have spiritual significance. (an
outsider
> to native american ways, or even an outsider to an individuals family
may
a
> little bit. :-)
>
> Brenda
> --
> Mirabel
> Wench 841
> 64% Faire Corrupt
> IceGasm Queen
> ICQ 4818294
> Remove SPAMBLOCK to reply
So's wearing a cross, and certain people who wear that symbol (at faire)
act in ways which are more highly offensive to that religion than my
calling what you're wearing "garb". Does it matter that much? And if
it's that significant, folks shouldn't wear it to renaissance faire.
There was one day when a fella showed up in Marine Corp Dress Blues. The
resident Marine of military, Margaret, was offended. "That's for special
occaisions," says she.
I believe we call this semantics. :-)
Phyr Elf
>Anyway,
>Since about 90% of faire participants play lower classes, you cannot expect
>those who have lived their entire lives in a village or town to know of
>anything outside their particular area. Especially if they are the
>xenphobic English.
Xenophobic English?? Where did THAT come from? Bloody foreigners.
::ducking and running a toute vitesse::
Tina Beychok
> In persuing my family ancestry, (and being the son of the
> Director of Heraldry for the Polish Nobility Assn., It BEHOOVES
> me to research, & follow through with the establishment of my
> 'Historical' character...
> I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
> expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
> Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
> I have a saying..."Nothing brings out the historically Ignorant,
> like a RenFaire"...
:::gently:::
Then is it not your job to cure that ignorance?
> By this I mean, that when I am dressed in a historically
> 'CORRECT' costume of the CORRECT timeline...I find myself
> surrounded by those who've FAILED BOTH History AND Geography...
> All I CONSTANTLY hear, is: "You're Vlad the Impaler, right?", and
> "Are you Mongolian?" (I AM caucasion)..."Are you Carpathian?",
> and, Hey! a Russian!"
> Just because I wear a fur hat, with eagle feathers, and a long
> red zhoupan (like a tunic WITH a large WHITE Polish Eagle), and
> carry a karabella szabla (Polish sabre), I keep running into all
> the 'historically ignorant...
I'd be more worried if they thought you were a French Musketeer. : >
Seriously, though...
Yes, the difference is important to you. Important enough that you have
obviously spent a great deal of time and effort to get it 'right.'
But until you explain the difference between a Russian and a Carpathian
and a Pole, *how are people expected to know*? I'd be the first to
'fess that, with the possible exception of the white eagle (which I only
know because I used to have a hairdresser who was of Polish background
and he had that imprinted on his shampoo bottles...no, I didn't just
make that up), I'd hazard a guess as far as 'Eastern European, possibly
Russian,' but not necessarily Polish.
> Why must I continually keep experiencing those at Faire who
> haven't got a clue, and result in just making stupid comments?...
> If you don't know...THEN A-S-K!!! I'll be happy to tell you all
> about it, only PLEASE!!! T-H-I-N-K before you speak...I don't
> walk around faire, and ask a Swiss infantryman if he's English,
> and I don't call an obvious Scot, an Italian...
Because they don't look alike. Key word 'OBVIOUS'. And not just to you
and me, but to the Average Patron.
I have had to explain more times that I have appendeges on my hands and
feet the difference between a 'pirate' and a 'privateer.' And I'll have
to do it several more hundred times before I'm planted six feet under.
I've had to explain to people that a foil is not an epee is not a saber.
And please don't mistake those for one of them great muckin' steel clubs
the Scots carry around.
But it's part of educating people. Making them understand the difference
between a pirate and a privateer and a Carpathian and a Pole.
Ignorant questions are borne of just that -- ignorance of the subject at
hand. I would no more expect you to understand the difference between a
pirate and a privateer necessarily than I would hope you would expect me
to know what a Winged Hussar was *before you explained it.*
Stupid questions deserve that great muckin' steel club bein hefted by
yon Scotsman.
> Please...DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!! And thank you for letting me
> vent...INTELLIGENT replys are MOST welcome, all others...You
> shouldn't even be breathing Renfaire air... Next time you see me
> at Faire...just nod, say hi, ask, but ask CAREFULLY...Thanks
> again, for your patience.
>
> Sincerely, Rik Fox.Polish Prince,
> and Captain of the Flagship, of His Royal Majesty,
> King Phillip of Spain.
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
--
BetN, Benevolent Cap'n of the Bad Ship BetNoirian--You there! Hoist
something!
First Mate Midnight Rose--Don' make me break dis lightsaber off'n yo'ass
Goddess of Pith and Vinegar
Proud Member #014 of the Assassins' Guild
'Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist
the black flag, and begin slitting throats'--H.L. Mencken
'To desire the end is to desire the means'--Draka saying
'Never parry with your head'--Tivar Moondragon
Liz / Cozit
Phyr Elf wrote:
> Steven Leon did say:
>
> >Anyway,
> >Since about 90% of faire participants play lower classes, you cannot expect
> >those who have lived their entire lives in a village or town to know of
> >anything outside their particular area. Especially if they are the
> >xenphobic English.
>
> Xenophobic English?? Where did THAT come from? Bloody foreigners.
> ::ducking and running a toute vitesse::
Hmm...doesn't that term apply to anyone not born within a few miles of the town
you're in at the time? Well..at least in period (and still some places now).
-Elisabeth
PAXIMUS
>It's not someone else's job to ask- it's your job to inform them.
>_Politely_!!!
>If they ask if you are Russian, or Vlad, or whatever, look at them down your
nose, and reply- "a mangy Muscovite? Certainly not. I am a Winged Hussar from
the
>Rzeczpospolita, the great Polish-Lithuanian Empire, the largest state
>in Europe, and you would have me as a mongrel crawling through the filth of
Moscow" etc etc (or something along these lines.
>Teach them _through_ your character, and use their ignorance as a lead
in.<<
Well said Eric! I too have to constantly correct and educate people at faire as
to who and what I am.
People see me dressed in Black Velvet and immediately they say; "There go the
Spanish", my fellow guild members and I, correct them by immediately telling
them that we are in fact Florentines, from the Grand Ducal State of Tuscany.
And when they apologize they will usually turn to me and then (I'm sure just to
justify themselves) say; "Well you can't be Italian your to dark" thats when I
inform them that my father (I perform as an historical personage) was the most
powerful black man in the whole of European History and the first Duke of
Florence, Alessandro de Medici. I then explain the shortened history of
imported slaves unto the Italian peninsula.
This then opens up a great deal of dialogue between the patrons, my fellow
performers and myself about the history of the Italies, we never fail to
educate and entertain them all the while.
As you said its one mind at a time but, its worth it!! :)
Pax Smith
Don Giulio de Medici
The Guild of San Lorenzo
http://members.aol.com/paximus/LaCompagnia.html
"Know how to say No....Refusal should never be flat, the truth appearing before
degrees.....Employ courtliness to fill the void of denial."
yaz pistachio
knowledge but he's coming across as a diva with a stick up his ass because
people research the areas they're interested in & not the area *he's*
interested in. in other, perhaps kinder words, he seems to be a *massive*
historical snob.
and my reaction is based on the observance that, were i to say "what a
marvellous outfit, are you with the Muskovy Trading Company", which, given
the character i play & the research i've done, would be a reasonable guess -
he'd reply with some diatribe based on my utter ignorance & unworthiness
because i don't recognize him as a Polish whatever it is.
the ladies of court, by the way, *are* familiar with this experience.
that's why we have buttons that say "yes, yes, no" & answer the three
questions we're always asked - "are you hot?", "did you make that yourself?"
and "are you the queen?". the difference, it seems, between us & Rik is
that we have handled the same situation for years, quietly and graciously.
as ever,
lea bob
Elizabeth St. Loe RPFN
"Lyonesse" <Lyones...@thelyonsden.org> wrote in message
news:39405591...@thelyonsden.org...
> yaz pistachio wrote:
> >
> > frankly, next time i see you at a faire, i plan on running the other
> > direction as fast as i can. you seem to be singularly unrewarding.
> >
>
yaz pistachio
"Eric tQ" <erict...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:d1ZAOcBUXA4Ovj...@4ax.com...
> >direction as fast as i can. you seem to be singularly unrewarding.
>
> text)
okay, but i'm going to charge you a cherry tootsie pop for the ride.
hugs,
Philip Tuley
David Bedno <drs...@elgin.foxvalley.net> wrote in message
SNIP
> That's one of the reasons I loved being a pretentious lower-class crier
Pretentious? That's what you were doing??? And there I thought you were
just being a snot. :)
> last northern. I got to wear my peasant clothes that were *all the same
> color* (except doublet). That the color was Saffron Yellow (thank you
> Dye Spot) was a wonderful bonus...
>
> David, "the same damn thing over and over again"
Remember, if it's funny once....
Philip
the criers' perpetual patron at RPFN
Kat & Kent
>
> he may be a nice guy & his object may be to share his vast amount of
> knowledge but he's coming across as a diva with a stick up his ass
> because people research the areas they're interested in & not the area
> *he's* interested in. in other, perhaps kinder words, he seems to be
> a *massive* historical snob.
I don't know about anyone else but my first (& 2nd & 3rd) impression was
that he was frustrated over the lack of history education in *general*
as evidence by all the situations he's dealt with... let's face it, some
of the folx you run across in the street don't even comprehend
*Poland*. And certainly I wouldn't want to be mistaken for Vlad the
Impaler or any other demonic character. While I can't quote his text (I
*just* finished that WDFH!), I recall recognizing darn near everything
historical he mentioned... but I know from experience that many things
that *I* know about history (and I don't consider myself a historian)
are unheard of by many. Blame it on the education system if you will...
and from my perspective that was his biggest gripe next to folx not
bothering to ask questions.
Kat the Raven Maven
--
High Priestess to the Goddess of Love, Soothing Visionary and
Temptress of the Feathery Touch
RenGeek
Brenda Baker
point was simply a little one about terminology and why it is in fact important to
say it right, but your contribution is so completely appreciated by me!
:) Brenda
>
>
> ::hopping up on the soap box with Brenda for a sec::
>
> And speaking as the daughter of two anthropologists and dating another (geez,
> you'd think I'd learn by now), the idea of "period American Indian garb" is
> laughable. The idea of NA dress that most of America thinks of tends to be the
> Plains Indian festival/religious garb/regalia. Just as not everyone in Europe
> dressed like English nobility from Good Queen Bess's court, not all Native
> Americans dressed like the Western movies. Really, can you imagine running
> around a heavily forested area in the middle of the hot muggy summer in the
> South in a full feathered head-dress? Uh... no. ::grinning, stepping back down
> and returning the NG to its focus on Ren times::
>
> Amanda the Brazen
> Wench #1171
> The Carpe Noctem Wench
--
Michael Urban
The Dark Polish Prince <rik_fox...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>Please...DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!! And thank you for letting me
>vent...INTELLIGENT replys are MOST welcome, all others...You
>shouldn't even be breathing Renfaire air... Next time you see me
>at Faire...just nod, say hi, ask, but ask CAREFULLY...Thanks
>again, for your patience.
>
DO MY HOMEWORK??? Well, pardon me! When was Polish history (complete
with recognition of costume) given out as the homework assignment?
Which other nationalitites and periods am I expected to identify on
sight? Didn't I use to have exam nightmares like this when I was in
school?
Hello? YOU are the textbook.
Chas
Of course defining Native American attire for historical events can be
even more difficult since it is a living/continuing culture. A few years
ago local event wanted to include a re-enactment camp reflecting Minn.
history. In a meeting I attended the director of a local historic site
explained to the event coordinator that a Native American dance group
wouldn't quite fit in to the historic camp because they presented the
modern versions of the dances and wore modern costumes with neon-colored
synthetic feathers, sneakers and such. (-More power to 'em for
preserving their culture!)
In the midst of a bunch of "serious" reenactors it would be a little
like a modern pastel-plaid Highland dance outfit portraying a
Renaissance Scot. He recommended the dancers perform on a stage for
cultural acts, and suggested some Native American re-enactors who could
provide "historic" presentations as opposed to "tradtitional"
presentations for the living history camp.
Anyway just rambling...
Chas
--
MacGregor Games
Purveyors of historic pastimes to re-enactors around the world
http://www.historicgames.com
SDJThorin
{POUNCE, BOUNCE, CRASH}
Well Met Rik...
Here let me help you up...
::dustingyouoffandpickingtwigsoutofyourhair::
Mead... 'tis quite good!
Welcome to the Madness that's AFR!
Now to get around to your post... *g*
I can see you've put a fair amount of time & energy into your
persona (& an interesting persona it is!)
That being said, I'd be one of the curious that would inquire about
you origins, since your outfit would draw my attention at a faire
*g*
But please don't lump all of us poor Rennie together... *g*
I, for one, love to learn new things, but I must admit that I've
never heard of the Winged Hussars before, although they do spark a
vague memory of 'something' familiar... *g*
Also, as a side note, most Faires are just family entertainment
events. Don't expect the masses to know anything, or you'll be
sadly disappointed at our ignorance...
Most just come to 'play' at faire.
Now, I have started to 'look up' the time periods of the faires
near me that I attend, but this is because I, personally, would
like to fit into the story lines better and be able to answer other
playtron's questions with knowledge that a traveller of the times
would have. I'm still hunting for info on period Swedes, but that's
another story... *g*
Fare Thee Well... I must be Tiggering along now...
PS : Here's some good links to check out, to make your stay
on AFR more enjoyable :
< AFR INFO >
See the AFR FAQ if you haven't already @
- http://member.aol.com/jmcathcart/afr.html
Helpful Tips For Reading/Posting Here
- http://www.wyldeside.com/Thorin/Rennie/afrtips.html
See who we are & what we look like @
- http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=afrinfo;list
See where some of us live @
- http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/ptwolf/Otters/otters.htm
See what all the Acronyms mean ( well most anyway ) @
- http://members.tripod.com/~WBarstow/lingo.html
< /AFR INFO >
----------------------------------------------------------------
*** For My Real Addy Replace The Crap With 'SDJThorin(at)' ***
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Stephen "The Forester" of Trillingham (OntRF: '97 to '00)
Thorin "Swede Raider" of Warwick (Sterling: '99 to '00)
Always One Of The Clan DeSomFrågar (Those Who Question)
Keeper of The AFR's :
Garb Patterns & Rennie Links Databases @ ( *** Updated *** )
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- http://www.wyldeside.com/Thorin/Rennie/afrtips.html
Hey, Check Out My Bio Page @
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& My Faire Picture Galleries @
- http://www.wyldeside.com/Thorin/GalleryNew/index.html
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:: I wonder if anyone reads down this far? Probably not! *g* ::
Brenda Baker
who is made up of English, Irish, Ojibwe, and another nation (possible
Shawnee... though we've found documentation on Dad's side of the family is
damned hard to come by) , attends pow-wows, and renaissance faires. (can we
all say Cross-Cultural-Wench? :-).. I love it!) At faires I'm usually the
typical wench. At Pow-wow's, I'm a member of the audience (although I may
be talked into dancing intertribal .... some day)
Anyway, it isn't just a matter of semantics, it really does matter what it
is called because it is a matter of cultural significance. In the context
we are speaking of, Garb means a style of apparel or outward form. Regalia
means special dress / finery, with decoration signifying ones association
with a certain people.
Anyway, my point is made.
Should this go further, it will become something we don't want it to become
(it's a hot topic for me, as I feel very strongly) so let's pursue faire
stuff now, shall we? :-)
Brenda
--
Mirabel
Wench 841
64% Faire Corrupt
IceGasm Queen
ICQ 4818294
CrossCultural Wench
Brenda Baker
responded above, and I think you'll see my point further in that. I'm not about
to touch the mistakes people make in attiring themselves for faire. (I think we
all have made, or make, concessions when it comes to dressing for faire either
out of necessity or ignorance.)
It was just a chance to offer a bit of clarification on a subject many people
take for granted is a dead one.
James Sweetland wrote:
>
> Not to argue with your reaction, but my guess is that the people
> being referred to are in "garb"--it may be based on regalia, but
> it isn't. Or, if it is, then what do we do about all those people
> dressed in Roman Catholic vestments, Lutheran vestments, Beefeater
> uniforms, etc. (Not even going near the wearing of samurai swords,
> golden fleece chains and the like).
>
> Appreciate your pointing out the issue, but when people dress up,
> especially with a character they don't know intimately, they will
> make more than a few faux pas.
>
> --
> James Sweetland, Bristol gamer, AFR deity of knowledge, High Priest of
> pushmonkeys, Bard #74, and KinderHunter of Sarcastica, not even children
> are safe from wisecracks. Proud to be a SCRIBE Associate:
> Want more information about faire? See http://www.faire.net/SCRIBE/
--
Mirabel
Wench 841
64% Faire Corrupt
IceGasm Queen
ICQ 4818294
Remove SPAMBLOCK to reply
Brenda Baker
> even more difficult since it is a living/continuing culture. A few years
> ago local event wanted to include a re-enactment camp reflecting Minn.
> history. In a meeting I attended the director of a local historic site
> explained to the event coordinator that a Native American dance group
> wouldn't quite fit in to the historic camp because they presented the
> modern versions of the dances and wore modern costumes with neon-colored
> synthetic feathers, sneakers and such. (-More power to 'em for
> preserving their culture!)
you may or may not be surprised at how many people, yes even in this country, who
believe that native people are extinct. (yes, I've heard that particular word used)
> In the midst of a bunch of "serious" reenactors it would be a little
> like a modern pastel-plaid Highland dance outfit portraying a
> Renaissance Scot. He recommended the dancers perform on a stage for
> cultural acts, and suggested some Native American re-enactors who could
> provide "historic" presentations as opposed to "tradtitional"
> presentations for the living history camp.
Aaaaaccccck... I'll take this rant somewhere else. If I don't leave this topic alone
(on here) you all will want to gag me to shut me up.
The Renaissance Man
what it
>.is called because it is a matter of cultural significance. In the
context
>.we are speaking of, Garb means a style of apparel or outward form.
Regalia
>.means special dress / finery, with decoration signifying ones
association
>.with a certain people.
And yet, the "garb" worn at a faire is to signify one's association,
as is a "uniform".
The Renaissance Man
(ten bonus gold stars to the one who can identify the source)
On clothing for characters...
> the idea of "period American Indian garb" is
> laughable. The idea of NA dress that most of America thinks of tends
to be the
> Plains Indian festival/religious garb/regalia. Just as not everyone
in Europe
> dressed like English nobility from Good Queen Bess's court.
>> It is regalia and many pieces of a persons regalia have spiritual
significance. (an outsider
>> to native american ways, or even an outsider to an individuals
family may
>> not even know the significance)
For a bit of fun reading, try Flashman & the Redskins. Victorian era
adventure with some excellent descriptions of the indigenous populace,
and the import of some adornments, specifically Apache.
>>>So's wearing a cross, and certain people who wear that symbol (at
faire)
>>>act in ways which are more highly offensive to that religion than
my
>>>calling what you're wearing "garb". Does it matter that much? And
if
>>>it's that significant, folks shouldn't wear it to renaissance
faire.
>>>There was one day when a fella showed up in Marine Corp Dress
Blues. The
>>>resident Marine of military, Margaret, was offended. "That's for
special
>>>occaisions," says she.
Says I...
a costume is a costume is a costume. Call it garb if'n ya want, call
it vestments, call it a uniform (with or without regalia) if it makes
you feel better...but it's still a costume.
As for getting bent out of shape by people not knowing the difference
between a Russian and Polish eagle, and leaping to the conclusion that
one is portraying a famous fictional fang'd fear-inducer...feh...most
people attending faires (hey look, it's pluralized!) had an American
education, and cannot be relied upon to put much thought into the
show. They want entertainment handed to them, it should all be
obvious, right there on the surface, for all to see...otherwise, it's
not worth the effort for many folks. Not the good, folks, mind you,
but many folks.
I play a historical fellow in competition with Old Willie the Shake
(as Lord Buckley call'd him). In FACT he's the fellow referred to in
the famous "upstart crow", and "shake-scene" cuts. Does anyone care,
no, I still get call'd Shakespeare, and most think ol Willie is the
butt of those jibes...sigh...but as has been noted afore, it's a great
chance to educate them with a few factoids. ('Course they need to be
framed in a fonne way)
It's tough to be the only one who does the reading, ain't it? That's
the problem I encountered at a certain festival at which I no longer
perform. One may wish to present the audience with a factual costume,
character, and show, but if the surroundings are riddled with Coke
ads, Nachos of Nottingham, and characters named Dominae Tryst (I shite
thee not) it becomes an uphill battle to be real.
Got a bit off track there, basically - don't let the accuracy of your
raiment and character, nor the lack of knowlege in those attending,
spoil the fonne of the festival.
--
Chris Davis
The Renaissance Man
www.renaissance-man.com
Scott Russell
>_Politely_!!!
>If they ask if you are Russian, or Vlad, or whatever, look at them
>down your nose, and reply-
>"a mangy Muscovite? Certainly not. I am a Winged Hussar from the
>Rzeczpospolita, the great Polish-Lithuanian Empire, the largest state
>in Europe, and you would have me as a mongrel crawling through the
>filth of Moscow" etc etc (or something along these lines.
>Teach them _through_ your character, and use their ignorance as a lead
>in.
I'll go you one further, Eric. If someone is willing to interact with you *at
all*, and endows you with a perfectly good character that they will willingly
believe, *go with it*. Remember the two main words of improv, kids... "Yes,
and..."
Patron: Hey, It's Vlad the Impaler"
Vlad: Yes, and you look like a size three.
Okay, negative choice. But you get the idea.
On the other hand:
> Do it briefly, and when you find an eager mind, _then_ you start to
>regale them with stories of great battles,
teaching willing students is all well and good. And your ideas for turning it
around are well done. I just hate throwing away an opportunity to interact.
Repeat it with me...
yes, and....yes, and....yes, and...
And the ever popular...
the customer is always right....
Scott Russell, scribe, player
the "Pete Best" of Sound & Fury
Huzzah for the Arch & Quiver Inn
sc...@soundandfury.org
RenGeek
Lessa
> Lessa wrote:
> >
> > nope, he didn't attend either event. however you might have seen him onstage
> > during the queen's show, or in the noble glade. Square built young man, younger
> > than myself. Looms quite a bit. He was wrestling with some of the yeomen on sat.
> > of three day.
> >
>
> No. That's not Rik. Rik Fox is an FoF member, tall and slim, older than
> you are. Long black hair, black moustache and goatee, BRIGHT blue eyes.
> And I guarantee you he wasn't wrestling :-)
>
>
well, then I am Queen of the Dorks.
been wearing that title for several days now.
--
Lessa
Angel of Destruction
Darth Lessa
AG# 023 THE Lessa. There can be only one.
West Coast Sargeant
Nihil Privatus
Redneck Goddess
Yeobabe and pickle bearer
http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/rdnkgddstrailerpark
Just the FAQ'S, Ma'am ---http://members.aol.com/jmcathcart/afr.html
"I please to aim"
Most men say I smother them.
...I say if you can hear them your not pushing on the pillow hard
enough.
"Tolerance is a virtue, and with all of our different ways of saying
it, we are all dancing to the same record."
Eric tQ
"....and with the flick of my wrist, I could change your religion."
Amicule, deliciae, num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
L.E.S.S.A.: Lifeform Engineered for Sabotage and Scientific Assassination
Don't Treat Me Any Differently Than You Would the Queen
Gruby
<swee...@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>The Dark Polish Prince wrote:
>
>...
>> I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
>> expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
>> Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
>> I have a saying..."Nothing brings out the historically Ignorant,
>> like a RenFaire"...
>
>Well, since you asked--
>
>I am no expert on the topic, but I *thought* the "costume" as
>you describe didn't exist during the Tudor period (1475-1603),
>which is the period of most renfaires I am familiar with.
>
Ok now is my turn - I must disagree with you hussars were known in
1500 -
"The name husaria probably appeared for the first time after a
victorious battle of Orsza fought on September the 8th, 1514, when
30,000 troops, mostly Polish and Lithuanian cavalry, commanded by the
Grand Hetman of Lithuania Konstanty Ostrogski, defeated the
80,000-strong army of Muscovy and took prisoner its commander.
However, it was in 1576 that King Stephen Bathory called into being
husaria regiments as independent cavalry units." -
their most known and glorius battle - an Vienna siege relife was
fought in 1683.
I,m also playing a role of polish nobelmen at RPFS and I can
understand Rik's frustration - same comments and questions "o look its
a Turk " or "are you a Kossak?"
So chin up Rik - together we stand...
Art.
(Soldier, go hung yourself)
barleyboy
bana...@aol.commodore64 (Scott Russell) wrote:
<snip>
>
>Repeat it with me...
>
>yes, and....yes, and....yes, and...
>
>And the ever popular...
>
>the customer is always right....
>
Faire actor, toupe member, guildmember, etc...... I'm afraid
that most don't even comprehend the meaning of "Yes,and..."
Symon
barleyboy
Houlehen <ba...@STAadvertising.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
>The Renaissance Faire isn't a history exam. It's an event, a
place to have fun.
>
>If this stuff really bothers you that much, maybe you're taking
it a little too
>seriously.
>Lighten up.
>
>....Barry.
>
>Hat's off to the Polish Prince for doing his homework on his
character - all actors at Ren Faires should have a solid
knowledge of their character to pull out when needed. I have to
agree with Barry though - Lighten up!! The Ren Faire is NOT a
roleplaying event - it's NOT a historical re-enactment - it's a
THEATRICAL event with a historical theme. Yeah, we need to keep
the historical aspects of our characters in mind, but it takes a
back seat to entertaining the audience. The overwhelming
majority of the faire's customers don't give a rats *ss about
the historical details of a given character; they just want to
be entertained. I constantly see street gigs get killed because
every rule of Improv is stepped on so someone can drivel on
correcting some innaccurate statement made about their
character. The audience in nearly every case gets bored and
wanders off looking elsewhere for entertainment. Out of
literally hundreds of interactions with customers and other
faire performers I have had only 3 meaningful discussions of my
character involving any historical detail so far this year at
RPFS. I've changed even my name for the sake of a gig more times
than that this year. Have a character at the ready but be
willing to adapt and be entertaining for the audience. Right or
wrong, don't expect most people to have anywhere near the same
level of interest in history as you (or most of us for that
matter) have - just relax and have a little fun!!
K. Kalani Patterson
<qtrh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Anyway, it isn't just a matter of semantics, it really does matter what it
>is called because it is a matter of cultural significance. In the context
>we are speaking of, Garb means a style of apparel or outward form. Regalia
>means special dress / finery, with decoration signifying ones association
>with a certain people.
Just out of curiosity, have you actually seen the gentleman who was
referred to?
I don't think what he wears would be considered regalia. It's simply
a buckskin loincloth, buckskin moccasins, a simple beaded necklace,
and a feather tied to the ponytail emerging from the back of his
otherwise bald head. IIRC, he usually goes shirtless or wears a
rather simple buckskin shirt. It's certainly not any sort of fancy
ceremonial getup, whatever the appropriate word for that may be...
more like everyday wear. I'll see if I can get a picture of him this
weekend and post it somewhere.
-slàinte-
-Kalani
A.F.R God of Mischief and Ren Rats
Rogue #269 ("2-6-9, or not 2-6-9, *that* is the question...")
Flirticus of Sarcastica, Keeper of the Cleavage Peepers
Convert to the Cult of Chucklehead
High Priest of the Cult of Guinness
.
\O
._/
| \_;
' `
Lyonesse
>
>
> well, then I am Queen of the Dorks.
>
> been wearing that title for several days now.
>
Yeah, but that's why I LOVE you. :-)
Can I make the crown? Huh, can I? Can I?
Rena
Kalani Patterson <Ren...@SPAMGUARD-kalani.net> wrote:
>more like everyday wear.
Exactly! One look at him and you can tell that this is not some
outfit he only drags out once a year. His tan lines (or lack
thereof) his hairstyle (shaved but for the long ponytail) and
the WAY he wears his clothes indicates to me that it is no more
a costume to him than my garb is to me.
>I'll see if I can get a picture of him this weekend and post it
>somewhere.
He was out last weekend. If he's not out again this weekend, you
ought to be able to get one from A.J. He's always been okay with
me posting his pics as long as I credit him.
Rena
James Sweetland
>
> On Thu, 08 Jun 2000 16:20:08 -0500, James Sweetland
> <swee...@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
> >I am no expert on the topic, but I *thought* the "costume" as
> >you describe didn't exist during the Tudor period (1475-1603),
> >which is the period of most renfaires I am familiar with.
> >
> Ok now is my turn - I must disagree with you hussars were known in
> 1500 -
No disagreement at all--I never said "hussars" weren't period.
I made a statement about the specific winged costume described in the
original posting. And, would still appreciate learning when the costume
was developed, and became common.
Hey, isn't this sort of historical discussion more fun (and more
interesting) than some of the other stuff that floats up here from
time to time?
icbleu
>will start off with a bang,
snipp
> Sincerely, Rik Fox.Polish Prince,
>and Captain of the Flagship, of His Royal Majesty,
>King Phillip of Spain.
Wow Rik. You certainly know how to make an entrance...
It's great to see you posting here, and this subject is a good
one! Will we be seeing you at Faire this weekend?
--
Jocelyn "make the wings flap?" Plazewska
Josilin Biggins RPFS
Katarzyna Magdelena Plazewska =)
Dame Elizabeth Hoby
Wench #607 Madame Cum Laude
http://home.san.rr.com/jocelyn
Webmaster to the Biggins Family
http://members.home.net/biggins
___
/___\
(o\ | /o)
U """ U
SDJThorin
Happy Faire'n,
Stephen.
James Sweetland wrote:
>
> Hey, isn't this sort of historical discussion more fun (and more
> interesting) than some of the other stuff that floats up here from
> time to time?
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Lyonesse
>
> yaz pistachio wrote:
> >
> > he may be a nice guy & his object may be to share his vast amount of
> > knowledge but he's coming across as a diva with a stick up his ass
> > because people research the areas they're interested in & not the area
> > *he's* interested in. in other, perhaps kinder words, he seems to be
> > a *massive* historical snob.
> <snip>
>
> I don't know about anyone else but my first (& 2nd & 3rd) impression was
> that he was frustrated over the lack of history education in *general*
> as evidence by all the situations he's dealt with...
Yes, thank you. Rik's not a "diva with a stick up his ass". He's just
frustrated. So maybe he came out shooting.... I'm sure anyone can relate
to that. We've *all* encountered moments of complete and utter
historical ignorance. He deals with it all day *every* time he puts on
his garb. It gets wearing. His whole point is "If you don't know, ask
and I'll tell you."
I blame the education system :-)
Jocelyn
.E338...@csd.uwm.edu>...
>Gruby wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 08 Jun 2000 16:20:08 -0500, James Sweetland
>> <swee...@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >I am no expert on the topic, but I *thought* the
"costume" as
>> >you describe didn't exist during the Tudor period
(1475-1603),
>> >which is the period of most renfaires I am familiar
with.
>> >
>> Ok now is my turn - I must disagree with you hussars
were known in
>> 1500 -
>
>No disagreement at all--I never said "hussars" weren't
period.
>I made a statement about the specific winged costume
described in the
>original posting. And, would still appreciate learning
when the costume
>was developed, and became common.
>
.
>James Sweetland, Bristol gamer, AFR deity of knowledge,
High Priest of
>
Ok I think that one can say that official date would be June
23,1576 1576 when the king Stefan Batory acting on the
advice of the Grand Council, established a new formation of
the present army for the protection of the person and
dignity of the king, which would be quick and mobile enough,
to take part in war expeditions urgent cases of threat upon
the state. According to the same document that established
the husaria, the husaria was to have been a select cavalry
unit made up of volunteers from all the provinces of the
Polish and Lithuanian Commonwealth. And so with this, the
new Husaria unit was to begin it's service in the great
army. Under the second elected polish king, King Stefan
Batory, the husaria made up about 85 percent of the Polish
and Lithuanian cavalry forces, and was an exclusively
national army of volunteers, unlike the other divisions of
the armed forces, where even foreign mercenaries
erved( i.e. Scots ,Germans) The husaria was also regarded
as the most elaborate and most decorative unit of the army.
This was so because of the great armour and other clothing
that the husaria wore. The armour had great wings attached
to it, and animal skins were usually thrown and worn over
the shoulder. The weapons were decorative, and the saddle
as well as the trappings were all made of highly priced
materials and decorated with precious stones and other signs
of wealth.But one must remember that polish nobles were very
independent individualists - so even the uniform was similar
it was not the same on each of them.
Art.
(Soldier , go hung yourself)
Jocelyn
>And there's the problem. It isn't *our* homework...it's
yours. *MY*
>homework is researching my family back to Edward I and
Charlemagne.
>Why in the world would I study Polish ancestry?
>
,
>Glendruid
>(Julie)
>Ren.Geek
Because we all are descedants of Willy the ConQ ;->
Rick219
Well, yes, on my mother's side...
Woodson
Rick Schulte Ric...@aol.com
Rengeek, Division 6
Pyratepeg1
>the 'historically ignorant...
>
:::sigh:::
Costume police...argh.
Lynn/Peg!
DCashir
<ac...@voicenetNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>As for getting bent out of shape by people not knowing the difference
>between a Russian and Polish eagle, and leaping to the conclusion that
>one is portraying a famous fictional fang'd fear-inducer...
Vlad the Impaler was actually a person who lived in the vicinity of
Hungary/Yugoslavia (IIRC). Dracula was created from his & other
stories that Bram Stoker had heard told. There is actual documentation
of Vlad... he would execute by impaling. (Don't remember a lot of
info... watched a program on the History Channel about this a few
months ago).
DCashir
--Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil & cruel. True... and they have many other fine qualities as well.
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James Sweetland
not only some excellent advice on "history-as-theatre-as-education"
but gave an excellent example of how that would work, in
character.
Eric is the Mac Daddy (and a great hawker, too)
--
James Sweetland, Bristol gamer, AFR deity of knowledge, High Priest of
Mistress Roisindubh
Mistress Roisindubh
aka Mistress Tyrwhitt, Guild of St. Georege, RPFS
icbleu
>yaz pistachio wrote:
>>
>> frankly, next time i see you at a faire, i plan on running
the other
>> direction as fast as i can. you seem to be singularly
unrewarding.
>>
>
>Oh c'mon... was this necessary? Rik is a very nice guy,
>I count him among my group of good friends. He's just
>frustrated. Snide comments about Vlad The Impaler and
>Carpathian jokes get *really* old after awhile.
>I agree, he's chosen a somewhat obscure character
>and is bound to encounter plenty of ignorance...
>but he's a nice guy who's knows his stuff and
>who is attempting to share his vast wealth of knowledge.
>
>--
>alla aardvark,
>Lyonesse
Take it from me my feline friend, as the RL wife of the other
Polish Noble at RPFS (he's been dressed as one for over four
years now, come see us at FOF), the sarcastic/ignorant/cute
comments get so old you just want to scream for frustration at
times. Knowing Rik, It's a wonder he waited so long to post
about it.
I'm glad he has friends like you to help others understand him
on AFR. He is a really nice person and quite good at what he
does. I had just about given up hope that my Husband would ever
find someone interested in Polonia to hang around with at faire,
when out of the blue comes a hussar named Rik...
As for the mis-identification of his persona, I've gotten
philosophical about the whole thing. I take the time with those
who are interested in knowing about what he is to teach them
about the Polish history, and I laugh good naturedly with those
who just want to toss off a funny joke.
I've had many good conversations with Nobles at RPFS, with
Royalty at different faires and many others of all classes in
between. Most people are eager to learn and share about each
others characters - heck! The Scotts in the FOF garden are even
thinking of forming a mercenary military with my Polish husband
as their commander - as long as he can pay, of course!
The funny thing is, outside of faire, most people I talk to know
more about the Polish Hussars than an obscure playwrite named
Marlowe (pre Shakespeare In Love, of course). This is heartening
as the state of education in our country could be held to a
higher standard...
Anyway, most of this message is actually aimed at the group in
general, and meant to clear up a few comments in this thread.
Jocelyn "the Ale Wenches say my hubby gives good pearl..."
Plazewska
Josilin Biggins RPFS
Dame Elizabeth Hoby
Wench #607 Madame Cum Laude
http://home.san.rr.com/jocelyn
Webmaster to the Biggins Family
http://members.home.net/biggins
___
/___\
(o\ | /o)
U """ U
James Sweetland
>
> Vlad the Impaler was actually a person who lived in the vicinity of
> Hungary/Yugoslavia (IIRC). Dracula was created from his & other
> stories that Bram Stoker had heard told. There is actual documentation
> of Vlad... he would execute by impaling. (Don't remember a lot of
> info... watched a program on the History Channel about this a few
> months ago).
Vlad Tepes (can't do the correct accent marks), aka "Dracul"
(son of the devil)
Um--Romania, actually. In the region, he is generally seen as a folk
hero for resisting the Turks. Until about the 1950's or so, the
local folk don't seem to have ever thought about him as the
Dracula of the movies and book.
Part of the whole situation gets involved in the roman vs. orthodox
Christians, issues which still cause problems in the region.
Best bet if you're interested is to read one or more of the books
and articles by Radu Florescu, the premier scholar on the subject.
And, there were some really gory books (with illustrations) printed
about Vlad at the time--when people think about printing, they usually
forget that it also allowed wider distribution of "sensational
literature" along with Bibles, the classics, and the like.
If you're after *real* vampires, try Elizabeth Bathory (possibly
related to the Batory involved with the Polish hussars?)--she
became convinced that the best way to avoid skin problems due to
aging was to bathe in the blood of young women.
I, as it happens, know a lot of specific stories about Vlad, which
I am sure no one really wants to know. Well, OK-- one that doesn't
involve impaling: to eliminate the poverty problem in one district,
he invited all the homeless and beggars to a big banquet--then
after they had dined, locked all the doors and windows, and then
burned the building to the ground.
Lessa
> Lessa wrote:
> >
> >
> > well, then I am Queen of the Dorks.
> >
> > been wearing that title for several days now.
> >
>
> Yeah, but that's why I LOVE you. :-)
>
> Can I make the crown? Huh, can I? Can I?
>
> --
> alla aardvark,
> Lyonesse
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
only if its made out of duct tape.
Fubar of The HillPeople
>Xenophobic English?? Where did THAT come from?
Probably from those that fear Lucy Lawless...
Allah MADE me say that!
Mu'taz Ibn Fubar
What Allah dont know...
Lyonesse
>
>
> only if its made out of duct tape.
>
You are *so* getting a crown next weekend Lessa.
Muahahahahahaha.
--
alla aardvark,
Lyonesse
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
PAXIMUS
>This was so because of the great armour and other clothing that the husaria
wore. The armour had great wings attached
>to it, and animal skins were usually thrown and worn over the shoulder. The
weapons were decorative, and the saddle
>as well as the trappings were all made of highly priced materials and
decorated with precious stones and other signs of wealth.But one must remember
that polish nobles were very independent individualists - so even the uniform
was similar
>it was not the same on each of them.
>Art.
>(Soldier , go hung yourself)<<
I really really hate myself for discarding my Military History Magazine with
the article about the Winged Hussars arrggh!!
Anyway this is about the arms and armor of the Hussars what they wore was not
decorative but very useful and consisted of such;
"Each rider carried four horse pistols, ready and primed, two on each side in a
holster which also served to protect the cavalrymen's knees from being broken
by an enemy mace. A typical charge made a mass use of a devastating fusilade
of pistol shots; the weapons then immediately discarded to be recovered from
the field later. Such charges then continued by sword and lance. A letter
pouch with a regimental number is attached just forward of the knee and saddle.
A beautiful silver powder-horn also hangs from the saddle which is modelled
in the Spanish style. The riders stood rather than sat in the saddle. On
the right-hand side the rider carried a sheathed straight sword - on the left a
curved Saracen sword. It was not uncommon for some riders to carry a
wheel-lock musket, richly decorated. Another favoured tool was the mace and
the crossbow, but by and large the 'Tartar' bow was the most useful.<<
The pelts they used were generally of Leopard and this was used over the
shoulders and upon there saddles. The interesting thing about them is of course
those wings which is believed to have been developed by the Mongols, Turks for
protection against the use of the Lariat in battle.
This is from a site I found with some great artwork:
http://www.jurekputter.freeserve.co.uk/polish/hussars.htm
It gives very little information as to their beginnings but from what it says
and from what I recall of the article in Military History they seemed to have
had their biggest use in the early 17th century and into the 18th.
Pax Smith
Don Giulio de Medici
The Guild of San Lorenzo
http://members.aol.com/paximus/LaCompagnia.html
"Know how to say No....Refusal should never be flat, the truth appearing before
degrees.....Employ courtliness to fill the void of denial."
The Renaissance Man
"The English feel genuinely sorry for anyone who isn't English."
--
Chris Davis
The Renaissance Man
www.renaissance-man.com
Lessa
> Lessa wrote:
> >
> >
> > only if its made out of duct tape.
> >
>
> You are *so* getting a crown next weekend Lessa.
>
> Muahahahahahaha.
>
> --
> alla aardvark,
> Lyonesse
>
ok, but you have to make sashes for both mischelf and chandra, cause they
misread the flyer, too. So they are my Maids of Honor......
Lord Daka
their hats in his presence, he ordered their hats nailed to their heads.
Talk about hat hair... owwwie.
And now, back to the carnage!
James Sweetland wrote:
--
As was ordained by prophecy,
Lord Daka, Kilted Freak
Apprentice Blacksmith
The Missing Rogue #285
73% FaireFolk Corrupt
, o o ,
`'#v--- ---¢#'´
/'> <'\
To reply, remove the breakfast things
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
icbleu
wrote:
>
>>The weapons were decorative, and the saddle
>>as well as the trappings were all made of highly priced
>>materials and decorated with precious stones and
>>other signs of wealth.
To which Paximus replied:
>Anyway this is about the arms and armor of the Hussars what
they wore was not decorative but very useful and consisted of
>such;
clipped a nice description of pretty Polish armor...
>Pax Smith
I think what my dear husband meant was that they were
decorative, not Decorative. I believe you two are describing the
same concept in that the armor was pretty ;) We have a tom of
this stuff hanging precariously off our livingroom wall, and as
dangerous and obviously functional as it appears, it is also
highly decorated and pretty...
This link can explain better what you both mean by decorative:
http://www.execulink.com/~tkaczor/husaria.htm This is a picture
of Hussar armor.
And more cool Polish stuff can be found on my husband's page at:
http://home.san.rr.com/jocelyn/artur/index.htm
Cheers,
Jocelyn "not a Pole Girl, just married to one" Plazewska
Josilin Biggins RPFS
Katarzyna Magdelena Plazewska
Dhannti
If you would be so kind to e-mail with a list of authors I would be
apprecitive. I remember something about those that dared his wrath
finding themselves impaled on the road leading to his home. The vision
of fifty or more bodies impaled as one rode towards his home may have
had a less then cheery reception. However if you know of nonfiction
authors I am curious.
Thanks
--
Dhannti
Ren Geek
Wench656
Ren Merc
Co-owener of the "Rouge Charade"
D.H.A.N.N.T.I.: Digital Hydraulic Android Normally for Nocturnal
Troubleshooting and Infiltration
Black Knight * hard to see the darkside*
~The invisible one,The quiet one.~
~Be not deceived with the first appearance of things,
For show is not substance.~
"Audacia,Furtim,Subdolus"
James Sweetland
> If you would be so kind to e-mail with a list of authors
Well since he's period (late 1400s) maybe others would be interested
too. Here's some recent goodies. And, remember one and all--
if your local library doesn't have it, ask for interlibrary loan.
And if you want to buy it, remember your local independent bookstore.
Dracula : essays on the life and times of Vlad Tepes
edited by Kurt W. treptow. New York : distributed by
Columbia University Press, 1991. East European
monographs ; no. 323
Very scholarly, with a lot of answer & response type essays.
Best current bibliography around--over 40pp. long
Andreescu, Stefan.
Vlad the Impaler : Dracula / Stefan Andreescu ; translated by Ioana
Voia. Bucharest : The Romanian Cultural Foundation Pub. House, 1999.
What the "locals" currently think, with comments on the
fictional
Stoker character as well.
Florescu, Radu.
Dracula : a biography of Vlad the Impaler, 1431-1476 London :
Hale, 1974.
The author I mentioned. This is a bit more scholarly than some
of his other works.
_____.
Dracula, prince of many faces : his life and his times.
Boston : Little, Brown, c1989.
Updated with recent research and points of view since his
earlier
work.
_____.
In search of Dracula : the history of Dracula and vampires
[New, updated, and rev. ed.]. Boston : Houghton Mifflin Co., 1994.
The original, updated. Includes Vlad, the fictional Dracula,
and other vampire legends and stories.
Dhannti
Thanks saved it.
Anne Frates/Richard Michalski
here. All these weird facts that I know about history, that I drag out
for Trivial Pursuit and other more obscure games (and for scoring points
on obscurities) are here almost common knowlege. What's a gal gotta
know? (G)
Queen Maggie
Cyberkender Esquire
>
> Director of Heraldry for the Polish Nobility Assn., It BEHOOVES
> me to research, & follow through with the establishment of my
> 'Historical' character...
> I have been involved in the long & arduous task (not to mention
> expensive), of trying to bring to light, the History of the
> Polish 'WINGED HUSSARS'...
> I have a saying..."Nothing brings out the historically Ignorant,
> like a RenFaire"...
>
Rik, I understand your frustration. Having the same lame comments/questions
said/asked over and over is incredibly tiresome. However, while you are
hearing it for the umpteenth time, they're saying it for the first time.
This is where you spend some time and educate them entertainingly. Also,
remember that the people you are speaking to here are not the ones likely to
ask such questions. AFRians either know a bit more than that, or usually
have the tact not to make those sorts of comments.
However, if you insist on your position, then practice what you preach. Get
your ass to a library and learn everything there is to know about Italians
in the Rensaissance so you can converse properly if you meet Pax. Then do
the same detailed reasearch on the Landskenechts for when you encounter Brad
Daeda or Father Anders. After that, you can brush up on your English/Irish
merchant sailors for when you meet me.
--
Cyber/<ender Esquire Punslinger-at-Large Fnord!
RenMerc and Rogue #159 Journeyman Bodice-ripper The Brass Kender
AFR Punarello of Sarcastica, Body-Chequor of Wise Fools and Bad Puns
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Brute Squad, Stealth Division
Apparently Appointed Mayor of There
What garlic is to salad, insanity is to art.
blackbriar
phy...@aol.combustible (Phyr Elf) wrote:
>I think maybe you should let the general populace off the hook
somewhat.
>Why?
>Do you realise how much history there IS out there? It's mind
boggling, and
>lets face it - History isn't everyone's favourite hobby, and
thats what it
>becomes after you've left the supportive web of academia (for
most people
>anyway).
>
in defense of those of us who don't do enough research on
everybody else's characters:
i'm relatively new to renn faires. i'm experiencing for the
first time just how much work goes into researching and creating
a character. next year at midsummer i'll be getting handfasted,
and we decided on period costumes for the wedding. i am of
mixed celt/ anglo saxon background, and my intended in an
intersting mix of peurto rican and kashmiri indian. we want our
heritages to be represented in our costumes - for simplicity's
sake mine will be english and his kashmiri or middle eastern.
suresh can't sew, so i am researching _both_ costumes, and let
me tell you, so far, it's no picnic. it hasn't been easy
finding info on mideval kashmiri dress appropriate for a
wedding. and that's just the _costumes_. thanks be to all the
gods i don't have to figure out a way to blend european pagan
and islamic wedding practices for the ceremony! my brain hurts
just thinking about it. unfortunately, i have a life beyond
researching costumes. i've a toddler to take care of, dishes to
do and bills to pay; i can't afford the delicious luxury of
spending that much time on research. and that's just for _two
costumes_. (not to mention the monumental challenge of, having
determined historical accuracy and appropriateness, finding
something suresh actually _likes_...)
expecting everybody going to faire to have an extensive
historical knowledge about every character there (especially if
they don't even know who's going to be there beforehand) is
utterly ridiculous. do my _homework_? my brain aches just from
planning a wedding, why on earth would i want to do _homework_
just to go to a faire for an afternoon?
blackbriar
Steve/Beth George
wrote:
>Xenophobic English?? Where did THAT come from? Bloody foreigners.
>::ducking and running a toute vitesse::
Xenophobic? Nonononononono
Not afraid of them - didn't like them. :-P
Calais and all that rot. <wink>
Steve
***********************************
For Best Results -- 86 the 86
***********************************
Morghana
animations. Why on earth do we expect them to know history to go to a
Renaissance Festival?
Think about it.
It's entertainment. IF and this is a major-league "IF" you can manage to sneak
some history in there and have them smiling, then that's great. But the
primary reason patrons go to RenFaire is for the entertainment.
Never lose sight of that. It's the patrons and the entertainment. Without
providing the latter for the former, RenFaires would cease to exist.
~Morghana
Queen of the AFR Goddesses
Builder of Costumes (and splendid velvet tights)
Goddess of 'Puters
Owned by Cats
oh, and professional computer geek, too.....
Robin the Scribner
news:3941A655...@erols.com...
> Yes, of course you know all those stories. I do too. It's getting scary
> here. All these weird facts that I know about history, that I drag out
> for Trivial Pursuit and other more obscure games (and for scoring points
> on obscurities) are here almost common knowlege. What's a gal gotta
> know? (G)
>
> Queen Maggie
>
Why, how to corrupt poor innocents like me, of course.
<blinking large puppy-dog eyes and then running like h-e-double hockey
sticks!>
--
Robin the Scribner
Sir Robert Barton, Baron of Walden
Ollie Ollie Oxenfree of Sarcastica, the BlueLightus Specialus
Member of the Media and Press, Moderate, Republican, and Union Rep
Man of Paradox
Bard # 072
Corrupted Innocent and Target of the Queen's Vengeance
B4BRVHRT
> After that, you can brush up on your English/Irish
>merchant sailors for when you meet me.
Or you could bring something tasty to eat over at Brass Rubbings to butter him
up. LOL :)
Me and my big mouth.....rofl
Lady Kathleen Of Skirvine
IWG#727 *The Flying Wench*
BrassKat/turtletwin
http://members.aol.com/b4brvhrt/Kathleen.html
Bookend One of Two
(You will be assimilated)
Clan MacHolstein.. moooooooo
Wicked Wench Of The West
Repeatyabeatya of Sarcastica
Stacey
that I lean more towards the historical, however I believe in teaching with
fun. Our point of reference is an historical point in time. I don't think
you can expect the average patron to know exactly who the Earl of Sussex is
or why the Queen isn't necessarily found of Lettice Knollys, or how natives
of the differing countries dressed, but that is where WE come in. We can
tell them about ourselves without becoming a snore and be entertaining at
the same time. People love gossip from all ages. Tell them why a hussar is
in England and what you like or don't like about shire X. Be happy or
grumpy or impatient or sad. If you are real to the patrons you are more
interesting, but you have to engage them first. You can't (necessarily)
expect them to know who you are or for them to come up to you. That is why
they are there. THAT is part of the entertainment!
Stacey
Mistress Jocelyn Merriweather
Morghana wrote in message <20000610000930...@nso-fi.aol.com>...
CeltsCat
Jim
aka Blackrose
Bard#029
yaz pistachio
dude comes into a group. admits it's his first post & launches into a
(self-admitted) rant about the lack of historical knowledge at faires.
turns out that what's up his nose isn't that people don't know about the
history that the *faire* centers on portraying. nah. what's got *his*
personals in a twist is that people don't know about the history that *he's*
portraying. a character, mind you, that's *completely* *outside* the world
of that faire.
now. is he asking for ways to teach his fellow actors & the customers about
his character? no. in fact, acting didn't even come into his post at all.
is he posting all of this as information so that people at his home faire(s)
will know what's going on & help him spread the word? nope. (for examples
of how *that's* handled, see the Courtesan threads of earlier this season.
their technique worked for me, anyway.)
is he, while bemoaning the fact that American schools feel very little need
to teach medieval/renaissance Polish history to their students (maybe he
recognizes that the average high school student has more use for an overview
of American history) resolving that he will do his little bit to combat that
ignorance? not even.
instead, he's announcing that all of the actors at the various faires are
worthless because they don't care to spend their time educating themselves
about a subject that is irrelevant to 99.9% of what they'll do at faire.
*and* that they're useless as actors because they don't see fit to set aside
any portrayal of their own characters to act as a sounding board for *his*
"countless hours of research", not to mention spending all their time
admiring his "expensive" costume.
he's - basically - a lazy actor. something i have little patience for.
look - in person the guy might just be a cross between Mother Theresa, Chico
Marx and Santa Clause. couldn't tell it by the intro he gave himself here.
don't blame me if i base my knowledge of him on what he's shown us here - he
hasn't given me anything else to go on.
after all, he's already deemed me as "not worthy to breathe Ren Faire air"
simply because i'd rather (sinful, i confess it) spend my time talking to
the audience than ferreting out the minutae of some obscure Polish soldier.
as ever,
lea bob
Elizabeth St. Loe RPFN
who plays a character who has several books written about her & still bets
that Rik won't be able to recognize who she is off the top of his head
"Lyonesse" <Lyones...@thelyonsden.org> wrote in message
news:39414E00...@thelyonsden.org...
> Kat & Kent wrote:
> >
> > yaz pistachio wrote:
> > >
> > > he may be a nice guy & his object may be to share his vast amount of
> > > knowledge but he's coming across as a diva with a stick up his ass
> > > because people research the areas they're interested in & not the area
> > > *he's* interested in. in other, perhaps kinder words, he seems to be
> > > a *massive* historical snob.
> > <snip>
> >
> > I don't know about anyone else but my first (& 2nd & 3rd) impression was
> > that he was frustrated over the lack of history education in *general*
> > as evidence by all the situations he's dealt with...
> <snip>
>
> Yes, thank you. Rik's not a "diva with a stick up his ass". He's just
> frustrated. So maybe he came out shooting.... I'm sure anyone can relate
> to that. We've *all* encountered moments of complete and utter
> historical ignorance. He deals with it all day *every* time he puts on
> his garb. It gets wearing. His whole point is "If you don't know, ask
> and I'll tell you."
>
> I blame the education system :-)
TalN
Steve/Beth George wrote in message <3941a4d8...@ca.news.verio.net>...
>On 09 Jun 2000 02:02:24 GMT, phy...@aol.combustible (Phyr Elf)
>wrote:
>
>>Xenophobic English?? Where did THAT come from? Bloody foreigners.
>>::ducking and running a toute vitesse::
>
>
>Xenophobic? Nonononononono
>
> Not afraid of them - didn't like them. :-P
>
> Calais and all that rot. <wink>
>
> Steve
Vraiment!
And we off the eastern shores of Anglia are not too fond of all the
"visitors" lording over over us. Tis not xenophobic, but xenopathic
tendencies at work.
But I have rather liked being mistaken for my Scot, Irish, or English
invaders. The comments of the "ignorant" provide sooooo much fodder for new
material. Even more fun is the stunned look on the face of a ren Scot when
my thick brougue tells 'em to pack up his Irish drinkin' pal and go home
'cause I want my castle back. <grin>
My Manx ancestors never had time to bother with learning about easterners -
at least any farther east than the Channel, except perhaps Peter the Great,
who did manage to visit those snooty people to the south of us. You know,
the ones playing on that smelly river - Thames, I think they call it.
TalN
(who is also a Privateer - not a pirate - even if the English refuse to
honor her Letters of Marque.)
PAXIMUS
>I think what my dear husband meant was that they were decorative, not
Decorative. I believe you two are describing the same concept in that the armor
was pretty ;) <<
Woops seem we are!! :) My bad for reading wrong. Nice links by the way and the
color shot of the Winged Hussar is really nice.
Buona Fortuna!!
James Pax Smith
Don Giulio de Medici
Scott Russell
>one must always react with "Yes, and..." -- an appropriately theatrical
>contradiction can work just as well. (And I believe earlier in this
>thread we had a few suggestions for how one could do just that.)
>
>While I agree that ren. faires are theatre (specifically improvisational
>theatre), they also involve history. A good fair balances the two and
>works with the strengths of both those who participate because they are
>into theatre and those who participate because they are into history. It
>does a fair (and improvisational theatre) no good to try to force those
>participating for the sake of history to knowingly, purposefully, and
>actively validate historical error under the banner of "good improv".
<snip for space only>
For the sake of brevity, instead of nitpicking, I'll just agree.
Scott Russell, scribe, player
the "Pete Best" of Sound & Fury
Huzzah for the Arch & Quiver Inn
sc...@soundandfury.org
RenGeek
Jocelyn
<20000612165817...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
>icbleu wrote:
>
>>I think what my dear husband meant was that they were
decorative, not
>Decorative. I believe you two are describing the same
concept in that the armor
>was pretty ;) <<
>
>Woops seem we are!! :) My bad for reading wrong. Nice links
by the way and the
>color shot of the Winged Hussar is really nice.
Thanks!
It's not often I get to plug a site I worked on for a *real*
reason....
--
Jocelyn "make the wings flap" Plazewska
Josilin Biggins RPFS
Dame Elizabeth Hoby
Wench #607 Madame Cum Laude
http://home.san.rr.com/jocelyn
Webmaster to the Biggins Family
http://members.home.net/biggins
___
/___\
(o\ | /o)
U """ U
Instructions for passing a Volkswagen on the freeway:
Get as close to the back of the VW as you possibly can.
This will let the driver know how much you want them to go
faster.
After about 10 minutes, suddenly lurch into the right lane
(if no lane available, use the shoulder) cutting off as many
other drivers as possible.
After you have passed the annoying little irritation, swerve
back in to the previous lane so hard you nearly skid into
the next one and slow down...
Tip: the larger your SUV, the faster you should drive while
doing this....
Walter Daniels
wrote:
>But they do know who Mickie Mouse and Goofy are. I am more in the middle in
>that I lean more towards the historical, however I believe in teaching with
>fun. Our point of reference is an historical point in time.
I find myself in between on this. I agree that he should have been
less "incensed," which is why I'm hiding the censer. :-) OTOH, he
does have a point. Poorly expresed, but a semi valid point.
I have "done characters," on occasion at SF conventions. I try very
hard to make it a "real person," with a life history, and everything.
For a period of time, *I am that "character.* The normal "me," or as
"normal" as I ever get :-), ceases to exist. It sounds like some do
that themselves. Others get less fully into "character." It is what
works for you. BTW, a real WH would indeed have an "attitude." :-)
Partly based on "status," and partly on real achievement. Maybe he got
a "little too far into character?"
> If you are real to the patrons you are more
>interesting, but you have to engage them first. You can't (necessarily)
>expect them to know who you are or for them to come up to you. That is why
>they are there. THAT is part of the entertainment!
>
>Stacey
>Mistress Jocelyn Merriweather
>
>Morghana wrote in message <20000610000930...@nso-fi.aol.com>...
>>When people go to Disneyland, they aren't expected to know how to do
>>animations. Why on earth do we expect them to know history to go to a
>>Renaissance Festival?
>>
>>Think about it.
>>
>>It's entertainment. IF and this is a major-league "IF" you can manage to
>sneak some history in there and have them smiling, then that's great. But the
>>primary reason patrons go to RenFaire is for the entertainment.
>>
>>Never lose sight of that. It's the patrons and the entertainment. Without
>>providing the latter for the former, RenFaires would cease to exist.
>>
>>~Morghana
>>Queen of the AFR Goddesses
>>Builder of Costumes (and splendid velvet tights)
>>Goddess of 'Puters
>>Owned by Cats
>>oh, and professional computer geek, too.....
>>
>>
>
>
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Romey777
going to), but has anyone mentioned that most every renaissance fair (ALL of
them, that I've been to) are set in England? Being upset that people don't
know Polish history seems to me as extraneous as expecting people to know what
was going on in Japan during the 1600's - it can be interesting, but it's not
really what the fair is 'about'. Of *course* people aren't going to know...
Romey
<a href="http://members.aol.com/romey777">http://members.aol.com/romey777</a>