Irish and Scottish Kilts - origins of ...
chris...@compuserve.com
I guess the definitive advice about this vexed question is to look at the
'documentary' evidence most likely to be accurate, i.e. contemporary
paintings of local people. Illustrations of many such paintings can be found
in coffee table type books at most bookshops (especially remainder bookshops
and usually discounted) or public libraries. And that is to say nothing about
public and private art galleries around the world.
Historical paintings of all classes of Irish people in the 17'th and 18'th
centuries can be seen in an excellent book entitled "Ireland - Art into
History" by Brian Kennedy and Raymond Gillespie. This was published in 1994
by: Town House, Dublin [ISBN 0-948524-47-2] and Robert Rinehart, Niwot,
Colorado [ISBN 1-57098-005-5]. The price is about 30 UK pounds or equivalent.
Indeed in the vast majority of discussions on these newsgroups it does appear
that hearsay, opinion and mythology count for more than solid documentary and
artistic evidence. Perhaps using libraries and books is a lost art in today's
electronic age. But libraries do in fact hold a vast store of solidly
researched human knowledge - far more than will ever be available on the net.
Any questions about the origins and development of the kilt in Ireland,
England and Scotland, as well as other 'traditional' clothes and footwear,
can be seen in contemporary paintings and illustrated books. They should be
the very first source of reference, quickly followed by written contemporary
accounts.
The golden rule is don't believe everything you read from computers,
including from web sites that have a political agenda to promote, and don't
believe anything that you are told that does not also quote a solid
historical source for that information.
Chris Brady.
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Morghana
>Irish Kilts - did they exist?
<SNIP of comments about coffee-table books>
>Historical paintings of all classes of Irish people in the 17'th and 18'th
>centuries can be seen in an excellent book entitled "Ireland - Art into
>History" by Brian Kennedy and Raymond Gillespie. This was published in 1994
>by: Town House, Dublin [ISBN 0-948524-47-2] and Robert Rinehart, Niwot,
>Colorado [ISBN 1-57098-005-5]. The price is about 30 UK pounds or equivalent.
I've located the book. I intend to order it. However, in perusing the Table
of Contents, it appears that there is precious little in it that applies to the
"...17'th and 18'th centuries..." which of course is the 1601-1799 timeframe.
(Table of Contents cut and paste follows....from the websearch on Amazon.com
which yielded this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/1570980055/qid=91972311
2/002-9123030-5650422
Ireland : Art into History
by Raymond Gillespie (Editor), Brian P. Kennedy (Editor)
Our Price: $40.00
Back Ordered
Hardcover - (October 1994) 240 pages
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Table of Contents
Notes on the contributors
Preface
Introduction
By Raymond Gillespie, Brian P. Kennedy
1. Malton's Views of Dublin: Too Good to be True?
By Edward McParland
2. The Changing Rural Landscape 1750-1850: Pictorial Evidence
By P. J. Duffy
3. Provincial Town Life in the Early Nineteenth Century: An Artist's
Impressions
By W. H. Crawford
4. Rural Life in pre-Famine Connacht: A Visual Document
By Marie Bourke
5. The Great Irish Famine 1845-9: Image versus Reality
By Margaret Crawford
6. Daniel O'Connell, the 'Liberator', 1775-1847: Changing Images
By Fergus O'Ferrall
7. Nationalist Monuments in Ireland, c 1870-1914: Symbolism and Ritual
By Gary Owens
8. The Art of Albert G. Power, 1881-1945: A Sculptural Legacy of Irish Ireland
By Sighle Bhreathnach-Lynch
9. The Irish Free State 1922-49: A Visual Perspective
By Brian P. Kennedy
10. Irish Funeral Monuments and Social Change 1500-1700: Perceptions of Death
By Raymond Gillespie
11. Child-rearing in Ireland, 1700-1830: An Exploration
By Marie Davis
12. Dublin in the Early Nineteenth Century: Domestic Evidence
By Mairead Dunlevy
13. Irish Victorian Churches: Denominational Distinctions
By Alistair Rowan
Notes
Index
>Indeed in the vast majority of discussions on these newsgroups it does appear
>that hearsay, opinion and mythology count for more than solid documentary and
>artistic evidence. Perhaps using libraries and books is a lost art in today's
>electronic age. But libraries do in fact hold a vast store of solidly
>researched human knowledge - far more than will ever be available on the net.
Perhaps you missed the postings from several of us who were asking for solid,
documentable evidence and book titles/ISBN listings? Or was this post in
response to those?
>
>Any questions about the origins and development of the kilt in Ireland,
>England and Scotland, as well as other 'traditional' clothes and footwear,
>can be seen in contemporary paintings and illustrated books. They should be
>the very first source of reference, quickly followed by written contemporary
>accounts.
A very BIG mistake is to assume a painting is equivalent to a photograph and
thus illustrates what the subject actually looked like. Paintings are painted,
over a period of time, by an artist. Artists don't make money if they don't
please their employers. It's fairly well documented in art history that
allegorical interpretations of clothing, appearance and setting influenced many
painters in many time periods. I'm not saying this is bad. I'm saying this is
what was done. Artists needed to be able to survive too.
A camera takes a picture of what is actually there and can be relied upon. (In
this day and age, and given tools like Photoshop, a picture is also no longer a
reliable representation of what truly is, but what the person presenting the
picture wants us to see). Not so terribly different from the painters who
depicted our ancestors.
>The golden rule is don't believe everything you read from computers,
>including from web sites that have a political agenda to promote, and don't
>believe anything that you are told that does not also quote a solid
>historical source for that information.
This is true. However, since the book you're citing has (at least from the
Table of Contents) precious little content directly bearing on the time period
that spawned the question (which I interpreted as: did Irish in the period
that most RenFaires are depicting, wear kilts? Broadly speaking that would
probably be 1540 to 1600 or so.... and only one chapter in the book
specifically mentions that time frame.
While I'll reserve total judgement for when I can actually SEE the book, I'm
not holding out a tremendous amount of hope that it can be a very useable
source for the period that spawned the question.
~Morghana
Queen of the AFR Goddesses
Builder of Costumes (and splendid Wulfie tights)
Goddess of 'Puters
Proud Member of the Renaissance Mercenaries
Owned by Cats
oh, and professional computer geek, too......
ye Knotte Master
snip of a most wonderful response!
*applause!*
Tim
Tim Rightbender/Moray MacDóbhran/Knotty MacFingers MacDude, ye Knotte Master (AKA Tim Russell); Master of knotty roses & ropes, St. Cuthbert's Guilde RPFS; @}---}---
Bud, QM of the Glorious Peasant Militia, Bearer of Camaraderie, Cider & Bravado; KnotteMaster for the Wilde Guilde; DNRC SrVPo/Abrv&ct.; CAPASPWMULD of F.A.I.R.I.E.;
Renderer of Rugosas of Rope, Ornamenter of Arachne, One Who Knows Lace Can Be Knaughty or Knice, Sometimes Both; Ordo Dogbertus Sanctus "Exite! Vos diaboli stupiditatis!"
Wizard #29; International Guilde of Knotte Tyers; email:bb...@removeme.lafn.org after deleting "removeme."