Sodium Chlorate / Vaseline vs. ANFO
compsci
(9:1)
Please discuss your experiences, ability to detonate, method of detonation,
explosion vs. compound weight ( big boom / 1 lb mix)
I heard that boiling 5% household bleach can produce approx 1 lb Sodium
Chlorate per gallon, is this true, 3NaOCl ---> NaClO3 + 2NaCl, is this the
stoichiometry ?
Do you think with the above stoich, giving you almost 2 x the quantity of
NaCl that you get enough NaClO3, comments, etc etc.
What happens if you use excess ful (vaseline), say 8:1, 7:1, 6:1, instead of
9:1 as recommended.
On electrical detonation, any thoughts.
An implanted bullet casing for detonation, detonated by heat, they do pop
with heat exposure, any thoughts. How important is packing density to 1.3
g/cc??? How important is granularization???
Hoping to see a huge thread on the subject from all the smarties.
Experienced repliers only please.
Jessie Martinez
Joe 123
I think they are very insensitive even less than ANFO. I tried a couple
times with no success at least I dont think so. I melted wax in a beaker,
added powdered K chlorate 9:1 and mixed till I couldnt mix anymore. The
first 15% chlorate went in OK but no more??? I just added rest and made a
paste. Cooled to a hard rock. I used toilet bowl wax. I hope this thread
takes off because Id really like to know Also. I still have some in a
beaker from 10yrs ago thinking I might be able to clean it,lol.
"compsci" <compute...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ZuYAa.19118$rO.17...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
LOUIS
detonation (nitrobenzene, DNB, nitrotoluen and DNT oils, nitronaphtalene, and
higher poly nitro aromatics like TNT).
Those nitroaromatics must be absolutely acid free for obvious reasons!
Cheddites are shock sensitive explosives.
Of course poor vaseline/KClO3 mix will be hard to detonate without a serious
diameter and booster!
Powdered KClO3 must be smooth as flour; paraffine oil will be better than solid
wax!
Toilet bowl wax? Do you mean paradichlorobenzene or naphtaline mothball used in
pipi rooms?
Anyway:
Parafine or wax can be idealised by (CH2)n without too much error (1% error for
nonane) vs H-(CH2)n-H.
KClO3 + CH2 --> KCl + CO2 + H2O
Thus 1 mole of KClO3 reacts with 1 of CH2 --> 122,55g for 14g wax
You indeed find the stoechiometric mix to be 89,75% oxydiser for 10,25%
reducer/fuel!
The stoechiometry is different for naphtalene!
Alternatively:
2KClO3 + 3CH2 --> 3CO + 3H2O + 2KCl
So here 245,1g for 42g here stoechiometry of uncomplete burning would be 85,37%
for 14,63%!
But the more the non ideal mix for complete burning, the less output energy!
Increasing fuel will lower sensitivity and power!
3NaOCl -heat -> NaClO3 + 2 NaCl indeed
Bleach is a mix of NaCl/NaOCl and NaOH since it comes from the process of
NaOH + Cl2 --> NaOCl + NaCl
A bullet won't be sufficient kick!
PH Z
Joe 123
"LOUIS" <Loui...@SKYNET.be> wrote in message
news:3ED54D4F...@SKYNET.be...
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
"Joe 123" <joe...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:D8dBa.773$vL5.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> Bees wax soft and sticky.
Honey and nitre.
Dirk
Eirik van der Meer
> Tenney L davis wrote a bit about these. Think they are called
> Cheddite exp.
No, the Cheddites contains nitroaromates and casor oil. The Explosifs and
Minélites however were made from chlorate and hydrocarbons:
Expl. P Expl. S Miné A Miné B Miné C
KClO3 90 -- 90 90 89
NaClO3 -- 89 -- -- --
Heavy petr. oil -- -- 3 -- --
Vaseline -- -- -- 3 4
Paraffin 10 11 7 7 5
Pitch -- -- -- -- 2
> I think they are very insensitive even less than ANFO.
It may be insensitive, but hardly less than Anfo. These were used by the
French in grenades and shells during WWI, and should be cap-sensitive.
--
Eirik M
I see fragged people
Peter Prucker
>
> Joe 123 ytret følgende:
>
> > Tenney L davis wrote a bit about these. Think they are called
> > Cheddite exp.
>
> No, the Cheddites contains nitroaromates and casor oil. The Explosifs and
> Minélites however were made from chlorate and hydrocarbons:
>
> Expl. P Expl. S Miné A Miné B Miné C
> KClO3 90 -- 90 90 89
> NaClO3 -- 89 -- -- --
> Heavy petr. oil -- -- 3 -- --
> Vaseline -- -- -- 3 4
> Paraffin 10 11 7 7 5
> Pitch -- -- -- -- 2
In Germany a simple mixture of 90% KClO3 and 10 % "Petroleum" (mineral
oil?) was called Miedziankit and belonged to the "Sprengel"-explosives.
Cheddites are said (A. Stettbacher) to be more sensitive than many other
explosives. The formerly caps Nr. 3 would be enough. Nr. 8 shold be
realy no problem.
P.Prucker
LOUIS
toilet, like skin care or epilation?
Anyway bees wax has been used to make candels and must contain a lot of CH2 in
its structure!
Actually any natural alimentary oil does too and should work wel; I would have
a preference for butter, owing to its low melting point and good flamability!
PH Z
Joe 123 wrote:
> Bees wax soft and sticky.
>
> "LOUIS" <Loui...@SKYNET.be> wrote in message
> ...
> > Toilet bowl wax? Do you mean paradichlorobenzene or naphtaline mothball
> > used in pipi rooms?
...
LOUIS
PH Z
LOUIS
PH Z
LOUIS
CH2-O-CO-CH2-CH2-CH3
CH-O-CO-CH2-CH2-CH3
CH2-O-CO-CH2-CH2-CH3
Stoechiometery must be adjusted in accordinance!
PH Z
donald j haarmann
> Would anyone like to add their expertise with Sodium Chlorate / Vaseline
> (9:1)
>
> I heard that boiling 5% household bleach can produce approx 1 lb Sodium
> Chlorate per gallon, is this true, 3NaOCl ---> NaClO3 + 2NaCl, is this the
> stoichiometry ?
>
[trimmed]
If a gallon of bleach weighs say 8 lbs (in actually it weighs a bit more) then what
is 5% of 8 lbs.?? Then again isn't bleach calcium hypochlorite?
I am not brave enough to mix sodium chlorate with anything! I have often wondered
'bout potassium chlorate and Vaseline. This mix seems to live in the "BLOW and BURN"
books. (How to Blow Things Up and Burn Things Down.) In the more traditional literature
e.g., N Ye Yaremenko, et al. Properties and Preparation of"Explosives. JPRS 50025. Being a
translation of pp 120-211 of - "Tetoriya i Tekhnologiya Promyshlennsykh; Vzyrvchatykh
Veshchestv", it gets only passing mention.
The only origional reference I have found is in:-
Lieut.-Col. JP Cundill
A Dictionary of Explosives (2nd ed)
HMSO 1895.
[#] 74 IV2 BERTHELOT, an explosive submitted for license in the Colony of Victoria and rejected.'
It consists of:-
Chlorate of potash ..... 80 per cent.
Vaseline/Paraffin ........ 10 per cent.
French chalk .............. 10 per cent.
The "ÏV2" indicates he was attempting to have approved an permissible explosive. Vaseline was
a common additive to explosive to lower their temperature. British smokeless powder "Cordite"
incorporated Vaseline for the same purpose.
------------
NAVEODFAC Technical Report TR-144
BD Trott
Effects of Cryogenic Temperatures on the Performance of Selected Explosives
August 1972
"As noted in table 3, several attempts were made to initiate the potassium chlorate/Vaseline
mixture. [At room temperature.] The first two attempts used Number 8 detonators and
Deltasheet boosters. In the second attempt, the Detasheet booster was increased
appreciably.
"Figure 16 shows the results of the initiation attempt using a larger than usual Detasheet booster.
The end cap and some of the pipe [12 x 1 1/2" caped at both ends.] nearest the booster
was fractured into small pieces. This result may have been caused almost completely by the
booster. It is difficult to determine if any appreciable reaction of the potassium chlorate/Vaseline
mixture occurred at all.
"In the remaining two shots with potassium chlorate/Vaseline, both with a squib and coiled primacord
were used in attempt to initiate an energetic reaction in this mixture. Both of these efforts also
failed to produce evidence of reaction, and further studies of this mixture were terminated"
Sorry to say - the percentage of components is not stated in this study.
So........?!?
--
donald j haarmann - independently dubious
Joe 123
then what
<is 5% of 8 lbs.?? Then again isn't bleach calcium hypochlorite?
No it is NaOCL. Made by reacting chlorine gas with sodium hydroxide in
solution. Pool bleach contains about 10% NaOCl which is pushing the
limits. I ve seen bleach as high as 15% but it decomposes very quickly
usually forming NaCl and O2 gas. It is my understanding you can not get
more than 5% chlorate W% from a boiled down bleach and then how to seperate?
Would NH4CLO4 and wax work? Maybe add a little chromate to it?
"donald j haarmann" <donald-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:cSqCa.182429$ja4.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
LOUIS
Joe 123 wrote:
> >If a gallon of bleach weighs say 8 lbs (in actually it weighs a bit more)
> then what
> <is 5% of 8 lbs.?? Then again isn't bleach calcium hypochlorite?
>
> No it is NaOCL. Made by reacting chlorine gas with sodium hydroxide in
> solution. Pool bleach contains about 10% NaOCl which is pushing the
> limits. I ve seen bleach as high as 15% but it decomposes very quickly
> usually forming NaCl and O2 gas. It is my understanding you can not get
> more than 5% chlorate W% from a boiled down bleach and then how to seperate?
3NaOCl --> NaOClO2 + 2NaCl
From this equation, you see that 223,35g NaOCl give 106,45g NaOClO2 and 116,9g
NaCl.
Boiled down beach will increase all % since water leaves the system, but the
salts remain in mother liquor.
The simple observation and conclusion to make here is that: from 5% containing
bleach you will form 2,38% overal yield of NaOClO2.
So 5% bleach when boiled to dryness (at maximum 150°C to avoid decomposition of
the chlorate in perchlorate) will provide 5% weedkiller at 46%NaOClO2 and 54%
NaCl.
Per liters of bleach this makes roughly 50g containing (23g chlorate and 27g
NaCl) --> 15 cubic centimeter.
If he does it for 100 liters bleach (5%) he would get 2,3 kg chlorate in 2,7 kg
NaCl....interesting but expensive.
Since in most garden store you can buy 5kg weedkiller (60%) for 7,5$, 89% for
12,5$, and 99% for 17,5$.
In a chemical shop I can have KOClO2 (99%) for about 1$/kg.
Bleach cost arround 0,5$/5 liters --> 10$ for 100 liters (not counting the time
and heating energy)
This for only 5kg (46%)
> Would NH4CLO4 and wax work? Maybe add a little chromate to it?
-Why not...AP is more sensitive than AN and has a little better OB and VOD; but
again owinf to desensitising effect of vaseline you will need serious booster
if you don't have admixed booster/sensitiser like NG, RDX, TNT, TNB, Al dust,
... chromate may help but NM will do much more (APFO, APNM type).
PH Z
LOUIS
the sea :o)
Beach --> bleach
PH Z
George William Herbert
Dirk Bruere at Neopax <di...@neopax.com> wrote:
>> Bees wax soft and sticky.
>
>Honey and nitre.
Is honey and nitre actually a detonatable explosive?
Anyone have studies and/or characteristics?
-george william herbert
gher...@retro.com
Don Thompson
no it is not a detonable explosive any more than NaNO3 and Carbon would be.
--
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD
"George William Herbert" <gher...@gw.retro.com> wrote in message
news:bd2pep$cr$1...@gw.retro.com...
Joe 123
used to mix my chlorate into as compared to regular wax (like candle wax or
hard wax).
"George William Herbert" <gher...@gw.retro.com> wrote in message
news:bd2pep$cr$1...@gw.retro.com...
mattmo...@googlemail.com
To the point though, I have been reading this thread and wondering. Sodium Chlorate and Potassium Chlorate are apparently notoriously dangerous in comparison to the corresponding perchlorates. At least that is what I have read a lot of lately. I never had a problem with chlorate based flash powder in my younger years. I never had a spontaneous or unwanted detonation or deflagration. I preferred sodium chlorate to potassium chlorate personally due to it being (in my perception at least) a little bit quicker to react. The problem was how it sucks up water like a dehydrated camel. I never did too much with perchlorates outside of the school lab. That was no fun either because my Chem teacher was former EOD in the Army and had eyes like a hawk.
My long winded question is assuming a 5% content of vaseline, 5% content of paraffin (liquid) 85% NaClO3 I would try adding a 3-5% of some kind of aromatic to facilitate initiation. TNT/ DMT are often quoted. I know that with chlorates, any kind of sulphur or acid, means learning to wipe with the other hand. But what about an exotic aromatic, such as Ethelene Glycol?
F Murtz
everyone is too frighted to talk on a perfectly legitimate subject
Bill
Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com> writes
gone are the days when you could have a sensible, scientific, practical,
discussion on this sort of subject.
Best left well alone.
--
Bill