Aldous Huxley's Sodoma Smile

[Simon Bowring]

Sorry if this is off-topic....

I've finally got around to reading Aldoes Huxley's "Point Counter
Point" and am finding it a tad challenging vocabulary-wise!

In particular, I must have read the phrase "sodoma smile" at least
a dozen times in this book, but can get no impression as to what
the (heaven &) hell Huxley is trying to convey by this.

The only definition of "sodoma" I have found is from Mirriam
Websters which defines it thus:

Function: biographical name
Il 1477-1549 Giovanni Antonio Bazzi Italian painter; influenced by da
Vinci and especially Raphael; works show transition from High
Renaissance to Mannerist style

This doesn't help me!

Any ideas?

TIA

Simon Bowring

[Robert Lieblich]

I think the answer may be the obvious one (although it's been so
long since I read Point Counter Point that I have only a very foggy
recollection of it). Perhaps Huxley is using the term in lieu of a
reference to the much better-known smile on the Mona Lisa, painted
by Sodoma's contemporary Leonardo -- showing us his erudition. A
quick tour of the Web didn't turn up much (aside from some X-rated
stuff), and I'm no scholar of art, but it seems a reasonable
surmise.

[Alec Owen]

Intriguing. I have nothing to add to Robert's reply except to say that
perhaps if you had given one context in which the expression occurs, it
would have helped.
A Owen

[Simon Bowring]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:07:33 -0500, Alec Owen wrote:

>if you had given one context in which the expression occurs, it
>would have helped.

Posibly, possibly not - it certainly hasn't helped me :-)
I've had a quick scan through the book and of course I can't
find any "sodomas" at the moment....howver I will return!

I probably need to find the first occurance since that is
most likely to have explanetory context (In my recollection, the
sort of thing is "Burlap flashed his sodoma smile..."

Thanks for your input anyway!

Simon

[Simon Bowring]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:47:37 -0500, Robert Lieblich wrote:

>Perhaps Huxley is using the term in lieu of a
>reference to the much better-known smile on the Mona Lisa, painted
>by Sodoma's contemporary Leonardo -- showing us his erudition.

Well I wish he'd keep it to himself! Your explanation had occurred
to me, but seemed a little indirect to say the least!

Thanks

Simon

[ikrom]

Simon--I found the article below, which should help.

Irene

Sodoma, Il (1477-1549), Italian painter, whose work bridges the High
Renaissance (see Renaissance Art and Architecture) and mannerism. He drew on
the methods of Italian painters Luca Signorelli and Raphael, as well as on
the sfumato (softening) technique of Italian artist Leonardo da Vinci, to
create religious and mythological works that are graceful, delicate, and
occasionally self-conscious in their beauty and sweetness.

EncartaŽ 98 Desk Encyclopedia Š & 1996-97 Microsoft Corporation.
All rights reserved.

----------
In article <fobjevatarjfzcpqngn...@news.demon.co.uk>,
"Simon Bowring" <sbowri...@mpc-data.co.uk> wrote:

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[John Dean]

Simon Bowring <sbowri...@mpc-data.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fobjevatarjfzcpqngn...@news.demon.co.uk...

20 years after Point Counter Point Huxley was to write The Giocanda Smile,
(you recollect that in Italy the painting Mona Lisa is known as La Gioconda
as the subject was thought to be Mrs Lisa del Giocondo.)

Do you smile to tempt a lover, Mona Lisa?
Or is this your way to hide a broken heart?
Many dreams have been brought to your doorstep;
They just lie there and they die there;
Are you warm, are you real, Mona Lisa?
Or just a cold and lonely lovely work of art?
-- Jay Livingston and Ray Evans

--
John Dean -- Oxford
I am anti-spammed -- defrag me to reply

[Robert Lieblich]

John Dean wrote:

[ . . . ]

> 20 years after Point Counter Point Huxley was to write The Giocanda Smile,

A big fan of smiling ladies, our Aldous.

> (you recollect that in Italy the painting Mona Lisa is known as La Gioconda
> as the subject was thought to be Mrs Lisa del Giocondo.)

Amilcare Ponchielli got an opera out of it. And Nat Cole a classic
recording:

> Do you smile to tempt a lover, Mona Lisa?
> Or is this your way to hide a broken heart?
> Many dreams have been brought to your doorstep;
> They just lie there and they die there;
> Are you warm, are you real, Mona Lisa?
> Or just a cold and lonely lovely work of art?
> -- Jay Livingston and Ray Evans

Somehow I just can't see Eminem singing that one.

[andre...@gmail.com]

Reading Point Counter Point now. I believe that Sodoma Smile refers to the story of Sodom & Gomorrah in the Bible. Therefore Sodoma Slime is a slime of a sinner (or to be even more precise of a sexual sinner). If you look at the context of the use of this phrase, this fits perfectly.

Best Regards,
Anna

[alien8er]

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 1:14:57 AM UTC-8, andre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 March 2001 14:27:29 UTC+1, Simon Bowring wrote:
>
> > Sorry if this is off-topic....
>
> > I've finally got around to reading Aldoes Huxley's "Point Counter
> > Point" and am finding it a tad challenging vocabulary-wise!
>
> > In particular, I must have read the phrase "sodoma smile" at least

> > a dozen times in this book...

(snip)

> Reading Point Counter Point now. I believe that Sodoma Smile refers to the
> story of Sodom & Gomorrah in the Bible. Therefore Sodoma Slime is a slime of
> a sinner (or to be even more precise of a sexual sinner). If you look at the
> context of the use of this phrase, this fits perfectly.

The slimy smile of a sexual sinner? Ew.


Dr HotSalt

[John Varela]

A Google Groups reader responding to a 13-year-old post.

[occam]

On 10/02/2014 01:37, John Varela wrote:
>
> A Google Groups reader responding to a 13-year-old post.
>

Not necessarily. There are computers out there that have their clocks
set incorrectly. (Admittedly, these computers are more likely owned by
Google Groupies than not.)

[VinnyB]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:49:08 +0100, occam <oc...@127.0.0.1> wrote in
<ldfg2k$70u$1...@dont-email.me>

Which is one of the reasons why, IMO, it is advisable to skip all such
posts from that clueless bunch.
--
I delete unread all messages posted through Google Groups.

[Don Phillipson]

On Tuesday, 13 March 2001 14:27:29 UTC+1, Simon Bowring wrote:

> I've finally got around to reading Aldoes Huxley's "Point Counter
> Point" and am finding it a tad challenging vocabulary-wise!
>
> In particular, I must have read the phrase "sodoma smile" at least
> a dozen times in this book, but can get no impression as to what
> the (heaven &) hell Huxley is trying to convey by this.
>
> The only definition of "sodoma" I have found is from Mirriam
> Websters which defines it thus:
>
> Function: biographical name
> Il 1477-1549 Giovanni Antonio Bazzi Italian painter; influenced by da
> Vinci and especially Raphael; works show transition from High
> Renaissance to Mannerist style

Anna <andre...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f84e6316-2475-49ee...@googlegroups.com...

> Reading Point Counter Point now. I believe that Sodoma Smile refers to
> the
> story of Sodom & Gomorrah in the Bible. Therefore Sodoma Slime is a slime
> of a sinner (or to be even more precise of a sexual sinner)

SB is right and Anna wrong. (The English adjective from the place
name Sodom is sodomite, not sodoma.)

When Huxley wrote thus in the 1920s, recognizing the Sodoma smile
(as distinct from the Mona Lisa smile, or how people look in Renoir's
portraits) indicated educated status, viz. familiarity with fashionable
art and genres (Italian Renaissance painting being in 1920s an
important part of the upper class curriculum.) It is a badge of social
class status, not a reference to sexual behavior.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[John Varela]

I don't think so. The poster's time hack is correct, as shown in his
headers:

From: andre...@gmail.com
Injection-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 09:14:57 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 33
Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.english.usage:278122

On Tuesday, 13 March 2001 14:27:29 UTC+1, Simon Bowring wrote:

Only the citation has an old date.

--
John Varela

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:05:31 -0600, VinnyB <vin...@Capple.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:49:08 +0100, occam <oc...@127.0.0.1> wrote in
><ldfg2k$70u$1...@dont-email.me>
>
>>On 10/02/2014 01:37, John Varela wrote:
>>>
>>> A Google Groups reader responding to a 13-year-old post.
>>>
>>
>>Not necessarily. There are computers out there that have their clocks
>>set incorrectly. (Admittedly, these computers are more likely owned by
>>Google Groupies than not.)
>
>Which is one of the reasons why, IMO, it is advisable to skip all such
>posts from that clueless bunch.

Does it matter?

English was spoken 13 years ago, and questions of usage don't change all that
much in 13 years.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[occam]

Because Simon Bowring's computer has a wrong date setting, and not the
PC of andre...@gmail.com, the responder.

[occam]

On 13/02/2014 05:44, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:05:31 -0600, VinnyB <vin...@Capple.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:49:08 +0100, occam <oc...@127.0.0.1> wrote in
>> <ldfg2k$70u$1...@dont-email.me>
>>
>>> On 10/02/2014 01:37, John Varela wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A Google Groups reader responding to a 13-year-old post.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not necessarily. There are computers out there that have their clocks
>>> set incorrectly. (Admittedly, these computers are more likely owned by
>>> Google Groupies than not.)
>>
>> Which is one of the reasons why, IMO, it is advisable to skip all such
>> posts from that clueless bunch.
>
> Does it matter?
>
> English was spoken 13 years ago, and questions of usage don't change all that
> much in 13 years.
>

If the email was sent 13 years ago, then the original poster is 13 years
older now and has hopefully outgrown his giggles on such words as
'sodoma'. This makes the 13 -year old email (if that is what it is) not
worth bothering with.