HALLOWEEN, NOT HOLLOWEEN

[Gary Eickmeier]

I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
"Holloween" but they do.

ALL HALLOWS EVE

OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME

HALLOWEEN

SHALLOW, HALLOW

Have I been perfectly clear here?

Gary Eickmeier

[GFH]

Yes, you are a pucker-butt.

GFH

[THE COLONEL]

"Gary Eickmeier" <geic...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DDvrq.24427$G84....@unlimited.newshosting.com...

As a member of those living on a tiny island nation, you most certainly
have.

[Don Phillipson]

"Gary Eickmeier" <geic...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DDvrq.24427$G84....@unlimited.newshosting.com...

> I can't explain the tendency of more than half the population to

> pronounce "Halloween" as "Holloween" . . .

Perhaps they are narrowly concentrated where GE lives: none here, anyway.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[LeCharles Bentley]

A lady from St. Louis once laughed at me for the way I pronounce
"pasta." I say it "pah-stah" and she says it "puh-stah." I maintain that
my pronunciation is the correct one. So I'm with you here.

[THE COLONEL]

"LeCharles Bentley" <noad...@noaddress.none> wrote in message
news:jTyrq.6487$ql3....@en-nntp-12.dc1.easynews.com...

You are both tossers.

[Gary Eickmeier]

"THE COLONEL" <tssg...@asianprincess.net> wrote in message
news:j8mlgt$mqj$1...@dont-email.me...

It's similar to the "eccetera" crowd - if they have never had Latin, they
have no concept of what it means, how it's spelled, or how it's pronounced.
They simply say "eccetera" because they are familiar with "eccentric" or
some other "ecc" rooted word.

Gary Eickmeier

[Patok]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>>>> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
>>>> tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
>>>> "Holloween" but they do.

I've never heard it said that way (I'm not gainsaying you, just
saying *I* haven't heard it). However, FYI, if you hear it said
"Helloween", you can be pretty sure the speaker is from Eastern Europe.
I have no idea how exactly or why it happened this way, but that's how
it is transcribed in the local orthographies. I even have to be careful
when saying it, because if I don't pay attention I say "Helloween".

--
You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
*
Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.

[Pat Durkin]

"Gary Eickmeier" <geic...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message

news:%cHrq.8386$ih2....@unlimited.newshosting.com...

How is "Hallows" pronounced in England as in the title of the Harry
Potter book? Anyway, I grind my teeth when I hear fashionistas say
"assessorize", as if the "double c" were a "double s", instead of the
"ks" sound you refer to in "eccentric".

[LeCharles Bentley]

I especially agree with your statement since "assessorize" sounds as if
it has to do with the buttocks.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:49:59 -0500, "Pat Durkin" <durk...@msn.com>
wrote:

The 'a' is the short 'a' we use in "cat", "ash", "and" and "marry":
ASCII IPA /&/.

There will be regional variations but I'd be surprised to hear "hallows"
sounding like "hollows".

>Anyway, I grind my teeth when I hear fashionistas say
>"assessorize", as if the "double c" were a "double s", instead of the
>"ks" sound you refer to in "eccentric".
>

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

[Daniel James]

In article <DDvrq.24427$G84....@unlimited.newshosting.com>, Gary

Eickmeier wrote:
> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween."

I rather like it -- apart from the lack of an apostrophe -- it makes
the point that the blatant commercialization of the occasion has robbed
it of any charm it may once have had, and made it a hollow and
unsatisfying experience for all.

> SHALLOW, HALLOW

Shallowe'en? Yes, that would work too.

Cheers,
Daniel.

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:ablva7t11m6kc42e3...@4ax.com...

> There will be regional variations but I'd be surprised to hear "hallows"
> sounding like "hollows".

That is surprising to me, because it is EVERYWHERE here - as I say, more
than half of them, including broadcasters, teachers, educated adults. I
think I would have to chalk it up to a learned problem, just hearing it that
way from others, without thinking.

Gary Eickmeier

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

I realised after sending that I should have stressed that the first 'o'
of "hollows" in BrE is said with the vowel /A./ [1] rather than the AmE
/A/ [2].

[1] http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/bother4.wav
[2] http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/botherbotherbc.wav

[Jerry Avins]

On 11/1/2011 12:34 AM, LeCharles Bentley wrote:

...

> I especially agree with your statement since "assessorize" sounds as if
> it has to do with the buttocks.

There's no accounting for regional mispronunciations. In some places,
you can hear, "Ax me no questions, I'll tell you no lies." As for
/assessorize/, "I ast him for money" has that same ring for me. It's all
the higth if idiocy, like "Of course it's /nucular/. It comes from nuculus.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

A further realisation after your comment Gary -

I watched the NBC Nightly News last night. The anchor Brian Williams
spoke "Halloween" with an 'a' which to my BrE ears was an "ah" sound as
in "father". I now realise that that could also be an AmE pronunciation
of 'o'.

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message

news:masva7hq9oi9c68oq...@4ax.com...

> A further realisation after your comment Gary -
>
> I watched the NBC Nightly News last night. The anchor Brian Williams
> spoke "Halloween" with an 'a' which to my BrE ears was an "ah" sound as
> in "father". I now realise that that could also be an AmE pronunciation
> of 'o'.

I have thought of that possibility, but why would Americans necessarily use
the British "ah" for what would normally be "a"?

Let me ask you this: How would you say "in the hallowed halls of congress"?
Would the two "a"s be the same "ah" sound? How would you pronounce "hallowed
be thy name"? To us it would sound funny to say "hollowed be thy name."

How would you differentiate between "hallow" and "hollow"?

Gary Eickmeier

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Daniel James" <dan...@me.invalid> wrote in message
news:VA.000004e...@me.invalid...

Another pet peeve is pronouncing a hard t in often (off-ten) and a hard h in
vehicle (vee-hickle).

You don't often hear soften pronounced the same as often.

Gary Eickmeier

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:10:21 -0400, "Gary Eickmeier"
<geic...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>
>"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
>news:masva7hq9oi9c68oq...@4ax.com...
>
>> A further realisation after your comment Gary -
>>
>> I watched the NBC Nightly News last night. The anchor Brian Williams
>> spoke "Halloween" with an 'a' which to my BrE ears was an "ah" sound as
>> in "father". I now realise that that could also be an AmE pronunciation
>> of 'o'.
>
>I have thought of that possibility, but why would Americans necessarily use
>the British "ah" for what would normally be "a"?
>
>Let me ask you this: How would you say "in the hallowed halls of congress"?
>Would the two "a"s be the same "ah" sound?

No. "hallowed" would have a short 'a'. "halls" would have an 'a' similar
to that in "ball".

>How would you pronounce "hallowed
>be thy name"? To us it would sound funny to say "hollowed be thy name."
>
>How would you differentiate between "hallow" and "hollow"?
>

They sound completely different. :-)

We use the short BrE "cot" 'o' in "hollow".

Here is an mp3 file of me saying "the hallowed halls in the hollow". I
am speaking slowly but not exaggerating the diffrence between the three
vowel sounds:
http://www.peterduncanson.net/audio/The%20hallowed%20halls%20in%20the%20hollow.mp3

Other peoples accents vary but the distinction between those vowel
sounds is maintained in most (all?) BrE accents.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 11/01/2011 12:00 PM, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>>> in "father". I now realise that that could also be an AmE pronunciation
>>> of 'o'.

Right, for most of us outside Boston and NYC, those are the same vowel.

> Here is an mp3 file of me saying "the hallowed halls in the hollow".

> http://www.peterduncanson.net/audio/The%20hallowed%20halls%20in%20the%20hollow.mp3

We make the same distinction in those three words (though again our
short "o" is like "ah"). It's just that we don't (always) pronounce
"Halloween" the same as "hallow." Most kids learn about Halloween as
infants but don't learn the word "hallow" until some years after they've
learned to repeat it in the Lord's Prayer, so there's not much natural
connection between the two.

�R

[John Varela]

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:26:04 UTC, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:49:59 -0500, "Pat Durkin" <durk...@msn.com>
> wrote:
> >How is "Hallows" pronounced in England as in the title of the Harry
> >Potter book?
>
> The 'a' is the short 'a' we use in "cat", "ash", "and" and "marry":
> ASCII IPA /&/.

Baa baa black sheep. I believe you are saying that the a in hallows
is pronounced like the a in black. I pronounce it like the a in baa,
which is the same as the first o in hollow.

M-W gives both pronunciations, but that's AmE of course.

> There will be regional variations but I'd be surprised to hear "hallows"
> sounding like "hollows".

--
John Varela

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message

news:ue40b7prv963b29an...@4ax.com...

Brilliant. And sounds about like I say eveything. Hallowed easily
distinguished from hall.

Gary Eickmeier

[CDB]

Daniel James wrote:
> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
>> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween."
>
> I rather like it -- apart from the lack of an apostrophe -- it makes
> the point that the blatant commercialization of the occasion has
> robbed it of any charm it may once have had, and made it a hollow
> and unsatisfying experience for all.
>
>> SHALLOW, HALLOW
>
> Shallowe'en? Yes, that would work too.
>

Some local Christians announced last week that they would be handing
out Bibles for JesusWeen. Don't know how well they did; the Facebook
page seems cheerful.

http://www.facebook.com/JesusWeen

[Gary Eickmeier]

"CDB" <belle...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:j8rb8n$ehs$1...@dont-email.me...

Wow, that's really inspirational. Imagine, turning All Hallows Eve, the
night before All Saints Day, into a religious event.

Next they will be making Christmas a religious feast.

Gary Eickmeier

[Pat Durkin]

"Jerry Avins" <j...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:FsTrq.17428$yY3....@newsfe01.iad...

> On 11/1/2011 12:34 AM, LeCharles Bentley wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> I especially agree with your statement since "assessorize" sounds
>> as if
>> it has to do with the buttocks.
>
> There's no accounting for regional mispronunciations. In some
> places, you can hear, "Ax me no questions, I'll tell you no lies."
> As for /assessorize/, "I ast him for money" has that same ring for
> me. It's all the higth if idiocy, like "Of course it's /nucular/. It
> comes from nuculus.
>

Some people think you are referring to "high point", which most would
spell as "height", but I know that others pronounce it as "heighth".
Do you have access to a dictionary? You might reassess your
spelling/pronunciation of that word.

[Jerry Avins]

Higth and heigthth ) aren't really words, so there are no correct
spellings. The pronunciation is nevertheless common at least in parts of
Pennsylvania. It seems to be modeled on "length" and "width".

You will hear "aks" for "ask" and "ast" for "asked" in many Brooklyn
neighborhoods. Eksetera!

[Ian Jackson]

In message <K_wsq.7392$D32....@newsfe20.iad>, Jerry Avins
<j...@ieee.org> writes

>

>
>You will hear "aks" for "ask" and "ast" for "asked" in many Brooklyn
>neighborhoods. Eksetera!
>

Aks (or ax) is pretty standard West Indian accent/dialect (which now, it
seems, is increasing replacing the Cockney influence on the London
accents - and even Cockney itself).
--
Ian

[tony cooper]

"Axe", for "ask", is prevalent all over the US, not just in Brooklyn.
It is more prevalent in African-American speech, but it is not limited
to A-As.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Andy Walker]

On 03/11/11 14:07, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Aks (or ax) is pretty standard West Indian accent/dialect (which now,
> it seems, is increasing replacing the Cockney influence on the London
> accents - and even Cockney itself).

It's common in the [UK] East Midlands. According to "Ey Up Mi
Duck", it's not a mispronunciation of "ask" but derives from OE "acsian".
It's found in Wycliffe's Bible: "Whann He schal axe -- what schal y
answere to Hym."

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <QKBsq.7329$_f4...@newsfe25.ams2>, Andy Walker
<ne...@cuboid.co.uk> writes

Actually, it may be more widespread than the East Midlands. It occurs in
the Geordie Victorian music hall song "Cushie Butterfield"
http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/c/cushie.html
http://www.metrolyrics.com/cushie-butterfield-lyrics-sting.html
although some singers do sometimes sing 'more normal English' words.
--
Ian

[Jerry Avins]

In my long-gone youth, I met it most among Brooklynites of Italian descent.

[Jerry Avins]

That fits. The same Brooklyn group would say "Ersters will sperl if you
berl them in erl. My goilfriend told me."

[John Varela]

On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:37:54 UTC, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:

> The same Brooklyn group would say "Ersters will sperl if you
> berl them in erl. My goilfriend told me."

That corresponds to the New Orleans "Yat" dialect. "Yat" from that
group's common greeting, "Where y'at?", meaning "How are you?"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpFDNTo4DNg

I grew up in the Carrollton district of New Orleans, whose dialect
gets passing mention in the video.

--
John Varela

[Jerry Avins]

I'm told it dates to Elizabethan times. One holdover is "coil" and
"curl" whose meanings have diverged only slightly since they were
variants of one word.

[CDB]

Jerry Avins wrote:

> John Varela wrote:
>> Jerry Avins<j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The same Brooklyn group would say "Ersters will sperl if you
>>> berl them in erl. My goilfriend told me."
>>
>> That corresponds to the New Orleans "Yat" dialect. "Yat" from that
>> group's common greeting, "Where y'at?", meaning "How are you?"
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpFDNTo4DNg
>>
>> I grew up in the Carrollton district of New Orleans, whose dialect
>> gets passing mention in the video.
>
> I'm told it dates to Elizabethan times. One holdover is "coil" and
> "curl" whose meanings have diverged only slightly since they were
> variants of one word.
>

There appears to be some dispute about that. The Online Etymological
Dictionary at OneLook* gives them separate origins:

curl (v.)
mid-15c., metathesis of crulle (c.1300), probably from an unrecorded
O.E. word or from M.Du. krul "curly," from P.Gmc. *krusl- (cf. E.Fris.
krull "lock of hair," M.H.G. krol, Norw. krull, Dan. krølle "curl").
The noun is recorded from c.1600.

coil (v.)
"to wind," 1610s, from M.Fr. coillir "to gather, pick," from L.
colligere "to gather together" (see collect). Meaning specialized
perhaps in nautical usage. The noun is recorded from 1620s.

*OneLook is a useful site, if you're interested in words.
http://www.onelook.com/

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:08:31 -0400, "CDB" <belle...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

The OED agrees that coil and curl have different origins.

coil, v.3
Etymology: Goes with coil n.3, neither being as yet traced beyond
1611, though, as nautical words, they were no doubt in spoken use
much earlier. The vb. is generally supposed to be identical with
French cueillir to gather, collect, cull, which Littré has as a
'terme de marine', 'plier une manœuvre en rond ou en ellipse'.
Compare the Portuguese colher un cabo ‘to coil a cable’
(Vieyra).
1.
a. trans. To lay up (a cable, rope, etc.) in concentric rings; the
rings may be disposed above each other, or one ring within another,
or over cleats, etc., as is done with small lines, to prevent
entanglement. Const. with up.


curl, v.1
Etymology: The early instances are of the past participle, which
also occurs in the 14th cent. in the forms crolled , crulled ; these
forms attach the vb. to the earlier adj. croll, crull adj., curly,
which goes back to 1300, and corresponds to similar words in
Frisian, Middle Dutch, and Middle German. In these languages also
there is a derivative verb: German krollen , kröllen , Low German,
Dutch, East Frisian krullen to curl.
I. trans.
1.
a. To bend round, wind, or twist into ringlets, as the hair.
....

[Jerry Avins]

On 11/4/2011 10:08 AM, CDB wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:

...

>> I'm told it dates to Elizabethan times. One holdover is "coil" and
>> "curl" whose meanings have diverged only slightly since they were
>> variants of one word.
>>
> There appears to be some dispute about that. The Online Etymological
> Dictionary at OneLook* gives them separate origins:

Thanks for dispelling a long-standing misconception.

> *OneLook is a useful site, if you're interested in words.
> http://www.onelook.com/

Thanks again. I bookmarked it.

[Lazarus Cooke]

In article <DDvrq.24427$G84....@unlimited.newshosting.com>, Gary

Eickmeier <geic...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
> tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
> "Holloween" but they do.
>
> ALL HALLOWS EVE
>
> OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME
>
> HALLOWEEN
>
> SHALLOW, HALLOW
>
> Have I been perfectly clear here?
>
> Gary Eickmeier
>
>
Dear me how intolerant you are.

Where I come from (Belfast), the pronunciation would sound to others
like 'hollowe'en' (you've misspelt it - missed the apostrophe). Also,
I think, in many parts of Scotland.

Since that's where the festival comes from, I think you're on a hiding
to nothing.

And what a lot of other ignorant whingers there are here, who can't
stand people pronouncing words differently from themselves.

[greenap...@gmail.com]

Actually Holloween goes back to "All saints". All saints was usually shortened to "All Hollow". This was all occurring during the ancient Roman Catholic Church

[Peter Young]

Usually "All Hallow", I think.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Bill McCray]

On 10/31/2012 10:11 AM, Peter Young wrote:
> On 31 Oct 2012 greenap...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Actually Holloween goes back to "All saints". All saints was usually
>> shortened to "All Hollow". This was all occurring during the ancient
>> Roman Catholic Church
>
> Usually "All Hallow", I think.

Unless they have no innards.

Bill in Kentucky

[Don Phillipson]

<greenap...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:99ef26ec-b8b9-48b8...@googlegroups.com...

> Actually Holloween goes back to "All saints". All saints was usually
> shortened to "All Hollow".
> This was all occurring during the ancient Roman Catholic Church

Not quite . . .
1. All Saints' Day = November 1 in the church calendar (fixed by
Pope Gregory III (731-741) says the Catholic Encyclopedia, and still
regularly observed in Protestant Christian churches.)
2. All Saints = All Hallows (in early English.)
3. The day before Nov. 1 is thus All Hallows Eve (as Xmas Eve
is the day preceding Xmas Day):
hence (in an oral society) Halloween.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Don Phillipson]

<greenap...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:99ef26ec-b8b9-48b8...@googlegroups.com...

> Actually Holloween goes back to "All saints". All saints was usually
> shortened to "All Hollow".
> This was all occurring during the ancient Roman Catholic Church

Not quite . . .
1. All Saints' Day = November 1 in the church calendar (fixed by

Pope Gregory III (731-741) says the Catholic Encyclopedia, still
regularly observed in Protestant Christian churches) usually named
in the local language (English, French, German, etc.) unlike Corpus
Christi (usually named in Latin.)

[frankwi...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 31, 2011 7:29:51 AM UTC-4, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
> tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
> "Holloween" but they do.
>
> ALL HALLOWS EVE
>
> OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME
>
> HALLOWEEN
>
> SHALLOW, HALLOW
>
> Have I been perfectly clear here?
>
> Gary Eickmeier

Gary, you forgot "hallowed" ground. "But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract." --A. Lincoln. I was just watching a piece on "Holloween" at TheLip.TV. The woman was supposed to be a university level expert, and she couldn't pronounce the word correctly. Great way to tell the experts from the posers, I suppose.

As for "etcetera," one does not have to know Latin. A bit of French would do, "et" being "and" in that language. The real problem here, of course, is that a large portion of the American population does not own a dictionary, and would not bother to consult it even if they did. Reading the comments at Huffington Post is a terribly disconcerting experience. These folks actually get to vote.

[frankwi...@gmail.com]

As recently as when I was growing up, it was spelled "Hallowe'en," the apostrophe representing the missing v.

[frankwi...@gmail.com]

The problem with your logic, of course, is that this mispronunciation began, not in the ancient days when Hallowe'en was first celebrated, but in the last 20 or 30 years among the same ignorant Americans who say "assessories" and "eccetera."

And by the way, calling folks "ignorant whingers" is what the ancient Romans would call Argumentum ad Hominem and doesn't get you any points toward winning an argument.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:40:08 -0800 (PST), frankwi...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Monday, October 31, 2011 7:29:51 AM UTC-4, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
>> tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
>> "Holloween" but they do.

I've never seen or heard that.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Ian Jackson]

In message <d509c970-60f5-47b9...@googlegroups.com>,
frankwi...@gmail.com writes

But "eve'" doesn't have an 'n'. It looks like the 'n' is a remnant of
the whole word, "evening" - but was this ever shortened to "even"? If
the "-een" is a shortened "-evening", should "Halloween" not really be "
Hallowe'en' "?
--
Ian

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

OED:

Hallow-e'en, n.
Etymology: Shortened < All-Hallow-Even: see All Hallow Eve n. at
All-Hallows n. Compounds 2.


All Hallow Eve n. (also †All Hallow Even) = All Hallows' Eve n. at
Compounds 1.

c1325 (?c1300) Chron. Robert of Gloucester (Calig.) l. 9537
(MED), Roberd erl of gloucestere..An alle halwe eue deide.
1495 in C. Innes & P. Chalmers Liber S. Thome de Aberbrothoc
(1856) II. 289 The schireff court til be haldin at Dunde on
Alhallowewyn.
1539 in Proc. Soc. Antiquaries Scotl. (1882) 16 195 Fyve paks of
waldmaill and twa barrellis of butter yerele on Alhallowevin to be
deliverit to us..upon the ayr of Kyrkwall.
1685 G. Sinclair Satans Invisible World Discovered 215 Some
young Women..upon Allhallow even goe to bed without speaking to
any,..and..see in their sleep, the man that shall be their
husband.
1878 Manch. City News 20 Apr. 22/1 At home we had..the carvis,
or seed-cake for Allhallow Eve.
1913 M. Hewlett Lore Proserpine 242 On All Hallow Eve,..they
went into the garden..and circled about a stone which was believed
to be bewitched.
1994 M. Segrest Mem. Race Traitor i. viii. 105 All Hallow
Eve..is the night on which the passage thins between worlds of the
living and of the dead.

The symbol † in "†All Hallow Even" marks that form as obsolete.

The quotations dated 1495, 1539 and 1685 have the final "n". The more
recent ones don't.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <ognj6ah5vhnsukm1r...@4ax.com>, "Peter
Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes

Noted. Interesting!
--
Ian

[John Varela]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 01:51:14 UTC, frankwi...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, November 17, 2011 12:46:53 PM UTC-5, Lazarus Cooke wrote:
> > In article <DDvrq.24427$G84....@unlimited.newshosting.com>, Gary
> > Eickmeier <geic...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
> > > tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
> > > "Holloween" but they do.
> > >
> > > ALL HALLOWS EVE
> > >
> > > OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME
> > >
> > > HALLOWEEN
> > >
> > > SHALLOW, HALLOW
> > >
> > > Have I been perfectly clear here?
> > >
> > > Gary Eickmeier
> > >
> > >
> > Dear me how intolerant you are.
> >
> > Where I come from (Belfast), the pronunciation would sound to others
> > like 'hollowe'en' (you've misspelt it - missed the apostrophe). Also,
> > I think, in many parts of Scotland.
> >
> > Since that's where the festival comes from, I think you're on a hiding
> > to nothing.
> >
> > And what a lot of other ignorant whingers there are here, who can't
> > stand people pronouncing words differently from themselves.
>
> The problem with your logic, of course, is that this mispronunciation began, not in the ancient days when Hallowe'en was first celebrated, but in the last 20 or 30 years among the same ignorant Americans who say "assessories" and "eccetera."

You evidently missed the fact that Lazarus was talking about the
pronunciation when he was growing up in Belfast. You do know where
Belfast is, I hope. We wouldn't want to have to classify you as
ignorant in addition to being an annual whinger.

I learned the pronunciation as "hollow-een" 70 years ago in New
Orleans, so your "last 20 or 30 years" assertion is no more valid
than your whine about pronunciation. There is a substantial
population of Irish descent in New Orleans, so maybe that's how the
pronunciation got there. There were then large populations of French
and Italian descent as well. How would a French or Italian speaker
pronounce the first vowel of Halloween?

> And by the way, calling folks "ignorant whingers" is what the ancient Romans would call Argumentum ad Hominem and doesn't get you any points toward winning an argument.

How does calling people "ignorant Americans" differ?

--
John Varela

[Katy]

On Tuesday, 1 November 2011 01:59:52 UTC+1, Patok wrote:

> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> >>>> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
> >>>> tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
> >>>> "Holloween" but they do.
>

> I've never heard it said that way (I'm not gainsaying you, just
> saying *I* haven't heard it). However, FYI, if you hear it said
> "Helloween", you can be pretty sure the speaker is from Eastern Europe.

Not all Eastern Europeans (btw. have you ever heard of CENTRAL Europe?!). Certainly Czechs, but not e.g. Polish. And also Germans - I got an email this year from a German where it was misspelled with "e", because that's how they say it (also Emezon, festivel, epps, chet etc. - everywhere where there's an "a" between 2 consonants, they'll pronounce it as "e", same for Czechs).

[John Varela]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 00:09:15 UTC, Katy
<katarzyna...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not all Eastern Europeans (btw. have you ever heard of CENTRAL Europe?!).

This is similar to a topic I was planning to raise, to wit:

WIWAL there were three west-to-east divisions of Asia: the Near
East, the Middle East, and the Far East. The Near East was Turkey
and the Levant, maybe as far east as Iraq. The Far East was China
and Japan. In between was the Middle East.

Nowadays it seems that what used to be the Near East is called the
Middle East, the part in the middle is Central Asia, and there is no
Near East unless perhaps it has relocated to Morocco.

--
John Varela

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

OED:

Near East, n.
The region comprising the countries of the eastern Mediterranean,
formerly also sometimes including those of the Balkan peninsula,
south-west Asia, or North Africa.
The region defined by Near East is imprecise, allowing for some
overlap with Middle East.
{This entry has been updated (OED Third Edition, June 2003)}

Middle East, n.
An extensive area of south-west Asia and northern Africa, now esp.
the area extending from Egypt to Iran. Also (esp. in early use):
India and adjacent countries; an area perceived as lying between the
Near East and the Far East.
{This entry has been updated (OED Third Edition, March 2002)}

Far East, n.
The extreme eastern regions of the Old World, esp. China and
Japan.
{This entry has not yet been fully updated (first published 1933)}

[Steve Hayes]

On 17 Dec 2014 20:26:01 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net> wrote:

In some cases even the Middle East has moved to Morocco. I think to many
Americans the "Near East" is what used to be known as "the Atlantic Seaboard".

[George Hardy]

Central Europe was Germany, Austria, Hungary, etc.

Eastern Europe was Russia, etc.

Western Europe was France, etc.

Language and religion set the areas.
Language: Romance, Germanic, Slavic.
And the alphabets reinforced the difference.
Serbs and Croats speak the same language, but
the alphabets are different.
Religion: Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.

WWII eliminated the "central" in Central Europe.
The USSR and Western Allies met in Germany.

GFH

[vsandra...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 31, 2011 at 4:29:51 AM UTC-7, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
> tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
> "Holloween" but they do.
>

> ALL HALLOWS EVE
>
> OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME
>
> HALLOWEEN
>
> SHALLOW, HALLOW
>
> Have I been perfectly clear here?
>
> Gary Eickmeier

Amen, brother! Plain ignorance from some!

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes. In your case, apparent ignorance that you're replying to a message
from four years ago. However, you're coming from Google Groups, so you
probably don't know any better.


--
athel

[rev...@gmail.com]

I would really like to know when and WHY people started calling it "Holloween." And you are right: it is EVERYWHERE here in the U.S. All the broadcasters seem to call it "Holloween" now, as well as all the voice-overs for TV movies and specials. It's as if they all got a memo telling them to say "Holloween." As you said, "hallow" rhymes with "shallow."

[Bill McCray]

I live in Kentucky, and I'm not aware of hearing it called "holloween".

Bill in Ky

[CRNG]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:57:32 -0400, Bill McCray
<billm...@mindspring.com> wrote in <n0mel6$api$1...@news.albasani.net>

My guess is the "hollow" is just a mispronunciation of "hallow" that
has become standard because of ignorance as to the original meaning of
Halloween (the day preceeding a holy day).
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:57:32 -0400, Bill McCray

I, too, have never heard anyone say "Holloween".

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 14:26:36 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:57:32 -0400, Bill McCray
><billm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>On 10/26/2015 10:38 AM, rev...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I would really like to know when and WHY people started calling it
>>> "Holloween." And you are right: it is EVERYWHERE here in the U.S.
>>> All the broadcasters seem to call it "Holloween" now, as well as all
>>> the voice-overs for TV movies and specials. It's as if they all got a
>>> memo telling them to say "Holloween." As you said, "hallow" rhymes
>>> with "shallow."
>>
>>I live in Kentucky, and I'm not aware of hearing it called "holloween".
>
>I, too, have never heard anyone say "Holloween".

We have to be careful with this.

In AmE the first "o" in "Holloween" would probably be /A/ rather than
the BrEtcE /A./ ("short-o"). [1]

That would be different from either the AmE or BrE /a/ sound of
"Halloween".

Forvo gives "mightysparks (Female from Australia)" pronouncing it as
apparently "Holloween"
http://forvo.com/word/halloween/

[1]
Hear "b22johansen (Male from United States)" pronouncing "hollow". To
British ears that has an "a" sound:
http://forvo.com/word/hollow/#en

The AmE pronunciations of "hallow" here sound very similar to that AmE
"hollow":
http://forvo.com/word/hollow/#en

[Ian Jackson]

In message <ahtu2bl3jmcm45e42...@4ax.com>, "Peter
Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes

Wouldn't most American say "harloween"?
--
Ian

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:18:43 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 14:26:36 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:57:32 -0400, Bill McCray
>><billm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 10/26/2015 10:38 AM, rev...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would really like to know when and WHY people started calling it
>>>> "Holloween." And you are right: it is EVERYWHERE here in the U.S.
>>>> All the broadcasters seem to call it "Holloween" now, as well as all
>>>> the voice-overs for TV movies and specials. It's as if they all got a
>>>> memo telling them to say "Holloween." As you said, "hallow" rhymes
>>>> with "shallow."
>>>
>>>I live in Kentucky, and I'm not aware of hearing it called "holloween".
>>
>>I, too, have never heard anyone say "Holloween".
>
>We have to be careful with this.
>
>In AmE the first "o" in "Holloween" would probably be /A/ rather than
>the BrEtcE /A./ ("short-o"). [1]
>
>That would be different from either the AmE or BrE /a/ sound of
>"Halloween".
>
>Forvo gives "mightysparks (Female from Australia)" pronouncing it as
>apparently "Holloween"
>http://forvo.com/word/halloween/

Yes, that does indeed sound like "Holloween"

Is it a peculiarly Australian problem, then?

[Bill McCray]

On 10/27/2015 9:38 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <ahtu2bl3jmcm45e42...@4ax.com>, "Peter
> Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes
>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 14:26:36 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:57:32 -0400, Bill McCray
>>> <billm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/26/2015 10:38 AM, rev...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would really like to know when and WHY people started calling it
>>>>> "Holloween." And you are right: it is EVERYWHERE here in the U.S.
>>>>> All the broadcasters seem to call it "Holloween" now, as well as all
>>>>> the voice-overs for TV movies and specials. It's as if they all got a
>>>>> memo telling them to say "Holloween." As you said, "hallow" rhymes
>>>>> with "shallow."
>>>>
>>>> I live in Kentucky, and I'm not aware of hearing it called "holloween".
>>>
>>> I, too, have never heard anyone say "Holloween".
>>
>> We have to be careful with this.
>>
>> In AmE the first "o" in "Holloween" would probably be /A/ rather than
>> the BrEtcE /A./ ("short-o"). [1]

Yes. It is not the "a" in "father".

>> That would be different from either the AmE or BrE /a/ sound of
>> "Halloween".
>>
>> Forvo gives "mightysparks (Female from Australia)" pronouncing it as
>> apparently "Holloween"
>> http://forvo.com/word/halloween/
>>
>> [1]
>> Hear "b22johansen (Male from United States)" pronouncing "hollow". To
>> British ears that has an "a" sound:
>> http://forvo.com/word/hollow/#en
>>
>> The AmE pronunciations of "hallow" here sound very similar to that AmE
>> "hollow":
>> http://forvo.com/word/hollow/#en
>>
> Wouldn't most American say "harloween"?

I've never heard it said that way.

Bill in Kentucky

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 21:35:33 -0400, Bill McCray

I think Ian is using "ar" to represent an "ah" sound. That rhyming
notation works only for non-rhotic speakers.

[Bill McCray]

Discussions about pronunciation are often a problem. Please don't put
an R in a written pronunciation unless you want me think an R is
pronounced there.

Anyway, thanks to this discussion, I'm now more sensitized to how
Halloween is pronounced. Jimmy Kimmel (host on a late-night talk show)
was definitely pronouncing it as Holloween last night, and I've heard it
from one of the folks on GMA this morning. I just heard Michael Strahan
(cohost on Kellie and Michael Live, former football (American style)
player) say it on their show, and he definitely said Halloween.

Bill in Kentucky

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Steve Hayes" <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in message
news:t11v2btvh9thi99dj...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:18:43 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>>Forvo gives "mightysparks (Female from Australia)" pronouncing it as
>>apparently "Holloween"
>>http://forvo.com/word/halloween/
>
> Yes, that does indeed sound like "Holloween"
>
> Is it a peculiarly Australian problem, then?

Definitely not. American, if anything. I am supposing that they think they
are pronouncing "hall" or "fall" without thinking about its derivation.

Thanks for all the answers to such an old post!

Gary Eickmeier

[Colonel Edmund J. Burke]

On 10/14/2015 7:52 PM, vsandra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 31, 2011 at 4:29:51 AM UTC-7, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
>> tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
>> "Holloween" but they do.
>>
>> ALL HALLOWS EVE
>>
>> OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME
>>

Our fadder who farts in heaven, how does yer garden grow.
LOL

[livingth...@gmail.com]

I'm with you Gary!! It's CRAZY annoying!! Now in 2017 it's worst it's cool, especially for the girls to incorrectly pronounce almost every word with a vowel!! It's sickening!! It's even made it to texts and captions! Instead of yes, it's yaas! Instead of the best, it's the bahst! I could go on forever! I'm sure you, and everyone else can relate! Unless they are the guilty party, ha ha!!

[cash4is...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 31, 2011 at 5:59:52 PM UTC-7, Patok wrote:
> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> >>>> I humbly submit my annual rant against "Holloween." I can't explain the
> >>>> tendency of more than half the population to pronounce "Halloween" as
> >>>> "Holloween" but they do.
>

> I've never heard it said that way (I'm not gainsaying you, just
> saying *I* haven't heard it). However, FYI, if you hear it said
> "Helloween", you can be pretty sure the speaker is from Eastern Europe.

> I have no idea how exactly or why it happened this way, but that's how
> it is transcribed in the local orthographies. I even have to be careful
> when saying it, because if I don't pay attention I say "Helloween".
>
> --
> You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
> *
> Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.

I live in northern California and almost no one pronounces it "Halloween". Everyone I have ever met says "Holloween".Pronouncing words correctly is for stuck up Canadians.

[cash4is...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 7:02:34 PM UTC-7, livingth...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm with you Gary!! It's CRAZY annoying!! Now in 2017 it's worst it's cool, especially for the girls to incorrectly pronounce almost every word with a vowel!! It's sickening!! It's even made it to texts and captions! Instead of yes, it's yaas! Instead of the best, it's the bahst! I could go on forever! I'm sure you, and everyone else can relate! Unless they are the guilty party, ha ha!!

LOL My mom talks that way and she's almost 50!

[marym...@gmail.com]

This has been bothering me, too. I'm from Denver and have been living overseas sir 25 years. I never heard this "Hollow" pronunciation until the past couple years when I've been watching television series and the like from America. I was shocked to hear a lot of people saying "Holloween!!" I wonder if this could be a regional thing? I also wonder if people are simply hearing a lot of others mispronounce it and are just copying that pronunciation?

Another example of the same thing is "nuclear." The correct pronunciation is NOO-Klee-ar; yet today, after George Bush, Jr. popularized his mispronunciation of Noo-ku-lar, so many people have copied it!

When people don't learn to pronounce correctly, they probably don't know how to spell correctly either.

Honestly, people who speak like this just sound really stupid and uneducated!

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Tweet! Tweet!

That is the sound of a "bird", or "brid" as it was originally spelled
and spoken for a few hundred years until the 1300s. Both forms were in
use for another couple of hundred years.

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 25/12/2017 12:28 AM, marym...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Another example of the same thing is "nuclear." The correct pronunciation is NOO-Klee-ar; yet today, after George Bush, Jr. popularized his mispronunciation of Noo-ku-lar, so many people have copied it!

I am pronouncing it as "nil-clear"! :)

> When people don't learn to pronounce correctly, ...

Well, English is not my mother tongue. I speak Cantonese.

--
@~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2017 08:28:07 -0800 (PST), marym...@gmail.com wrote:

>This has been bothering me, too. I'm from Denver and have been living overseas sir 25 years. I never heard this "Hollow" pronunciation until the past couple years when I've been watching television series and the like from America. I was shocked to hear a lot of people saying "Holloween!!" I wonder if this could be a regional thing? I also wonder if people are simply hearing a lot of others mispronounce it and are just copying that pronunciation?
>
>Another example of the same thing is "nuclear." The correct pronunciation is NOO-Klee-ar; yet today, after George Bush, Jr. popularized his mispronunciation of Noo-ku-lar, so many people have copied it!

Similarly, a lot of people pronounce "realtor" ree-la-ter.

[yanb...@gmail.com]

False analogies. Halloween and "holloween" are pronounced identically. The "a" is as in "father." I've heard it and said it all my life. I've also occasionally heard pretentious people flatten the "a" in the manner you allude to.

[Bill McCray]

On 12/24/17 7:28 PM, yanb...@gmail.com wrote:
> False analogies. Halloween and "holloween" are pronounced identically. The "a" is as in "father." I've heard it and said it all my life. I've also occasionally heard pretentious people flatten the "a" in the manner you allude to.
>

It must depend upon where you grew up. Here in central Kentucky, the
"a" in Halloween is not like the one in "father". "Hallow" and "hollow"
are different (not even including the "holler" version).

Bill in Kentucky