Masseuse
Dave Swindell
word "masseuse" pronounced as "mass-soose". Yesterday in a British TV
programme a well-known and otherwise very literate British actress used
the same form. It was, admittedly, a comedy programme, and I can only
hope that it was meant as a joke.
What is the general UK and US perception of this word?
--
Dave dswindel...@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies.
Bike's are bosh, PC's are pointless, and the 1990's are nuts!
Bikes are great, PCs are super, and the 1990s are the time to be!
Save the apostrophe! Get 'em right! If in doubt, leave 'em out!!
Mark Wallace
> In many recent American TV and cinema presentations I have heard
> the word "masseuse" pronounced as "mass-soose". Yesterday in a
> British TV programme a well-known and otherwise very literate
> British actress used the same form. It was, admittedly, a comedy
> programme, and I can only hope that it was meant as a joke.
>
> What is the general UK and US perception of this word?
If you're (God forbid) French, pronounce it the French way.
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
For the intelligent approach to nasty humour, visit:
The Anglo-American Humour (humor) Site
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/mainmenu.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
MC
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
> Dave Swindell wrote:
>
> > In many recent American TV and cinema presentations I have heard
> > the word "masseuse" pronounced as "mass-soose". Yesterday in a
> > British TV programme a well-known and otherwise very literate
> > British actress used the same form. It was, admittedly, a comedy
> > programme, and I can only hope that it was meant as a joke.
> >
> > What is the general UK and US perception of this word?
>
> If you're (God forbid) French, pronounce it the French way.
Gratuitous little swipe at out Gallic friends notwithstanding, here's my
take on the question. I'm writing from Montreal, which is a) at least 50%
French-speaking, and b) a 45-minute drive from the New York and Vermont
borders, so I think I can claim some knowledge on this point.
Most Americans have *enormous* difficulty with French pronunciation. They
can be pretty much relied upon to mangle any French word. I don't know
which is worse, the ignorant mistake, or the valiant failed effort to get
it right.
There are some exceptions, those Americans whose French is excellent. When
they say "mass-oose" and "shantoose" (chanteuse) it's ironic.
Most Americans also have little or no understanding of French grammar,
especially when it comes to gender. Hence they will refer to golden-haired
girls in print as "blond" rather than "blonde," and so on. They rarely
make the distinction.
But here's the kicker: the word "masseuse" is creeping into AmE to mean (a
male) masseur.
Mark Wallace
Yes, but US masseurs (esp. Californian ones) wear Chantilly lace.
david56
And a purty face, and a ponytail hanging down?
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.
John Dean
>
>> Dave Swindell wrote:
>>
>>> In many recent American TV and cinema presentations I have heard
>>> the word "masseuse" pronounced as "mass-soose".
>
> When they say "mass-oose" and "shantoose" (chanteuse) it's ironic.
Shan-toozy, n'est-ce pas?
>
> Most Americans also have little or no understanding of French grammar,
> especially when it comes to gender. Hence they will refer to golden-
> haired girls in print as "blond" rather than "blonde," and so on.
> They rarely make the distinction.
>
> But here's the kicker: the word "masseuse" is creeping into AmE to
> mean (a male) masseur.
UK generally has mass-erze. But the prevalence of US programmes like Friends
may well change this for future generations. Worth noting that 'masseuse' in
the UK has a seedy, sexual connotation despite the fact that there are
respectable & genuine practitioners.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
MC
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
> > But here's the kicker: the word "masseuse" is creeping into AmE
> > to mean (a male) masseur.
>
> Yes, but US masseurs (esp. Californian ones) wear Chantilly lace.
However, some of the masseuses spread Chantilly cream all over you. Or so
I've been told.
Howard Tuckey
"John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
news:akfru7$oag$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
"Therapeutic Massage." I checked yesterday at the NY State Fair, and the
going rate for certified training is $10,200 for a thousand hours of
instruction.
My favorite example of such schools is not far from my home -- it's located
just north of Ithaca, NY, and is called "The Finger Lakes School of
Massage."
I had a friend who was booted from there -- he evidently rubbed someone the
wrong w.....nevermind.
Pat Durkin
"MC" <copeS...@ca.inter.net> wrote in message
news:copeSPAMZAP-27...@1cust219.tnt5.montreal.qb.da.uu.net...
Do you have a website that demonstrates the correct pronunciation?
Few Americans have ever studied French, and pronounce the words as they
see or hear them, with little need to recourse to a dictionary.
>
> Most Americans also have little or no understanding of French grammar,
> especially when it comes to gender. Hence they will refer to
golden-haired
> girls in print as "blond" rather than "blonde," and so on. They rarely
> make the distinction.
>
This word and meaning have been brought into the English language. The
English language does not make feminine/masculine adjectives to agree
with the nouns they modify. A few people may know French and do this
the French way, but the rest of us just shrug our shoulders. It is not
a grammar or usage problem in AmE. Is hair masculine or feminine in
French? A blond (really, a blond-haired woman) should be correct,
right?
Many of us also don't differentiate between fiancé/fiancee, né/née,
divorcé/divorcée.
Here's another (M-W Online):
Main Entry: 1bru·net
Variant(s): or bru·nette /brü-'net/
Function: noun
Date: circa 1539
: a person having brown or black hair and usually a relatively dark
complexion
> But here's the kicker: the word "masseuse" is creeping into AmE to
mean (a
> male) masseur.
Main Entry: 1blond
Variant(s): or blonde /'bländ/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French blond, masculine, blonde, feminine
Date: 15th century
1 a : of a flaxen, golden, light auburn, or pale yellowish brown color
<blond hair> b : of a pale white or rosy white color <blond skin> c :
being a blond
2 a : of a light color b : of the color blond c : made light-colored by
bleaching <a table of blond walnut>
- blond·ish /'blän-dish/ adjective
scuse me
>
>Most Americans have *enormous* difficulty with French pronunciation. They
>can be pretty much relied upon to mangle any French word. I don't know
>which is worse, the ignorant mistake, or the valiant failed effort to get
>it right.
>
>There are some exceptions, those Americans whose French is excellent. When
>they say "mass-oose" and "shantoose" (chanteuse) it's ironic.
I know how to pronounce French words, at least passably, but I would
never pronounce them with a French accent. Anglophones who do that are
almost always pompous or pedantic. ( You already mentionned ironic.)
How would you react to an anglophone who said Pah-rhee instead or
Pear-iss.
Mark Wallace
> Mark Wallace wrote:
>>> But here's the kicker: the word "masseuse" is creeping into AmE
>>> to mean (a male) masseur.
>>
>> Yes, but US masseurs (esp. Californian ones) wear Chantilly lace.
>
> And a purty face, and a ponytail hanging down?
And don't forget the wiggle and the giggle.
Mark Wallace
> Do you have a website that demonstrates the correct
> pronunciation? Few Americans have ever studied French, and
> pronounce the words as they see or hear them, with little need to
> recourse to a dictionary.
I wouldn't say little *need*; just little recourse.
--
Mark Wallace
____________________________
Little girl lost?
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/m-pages/mother.htm
____________________________
MC
<ze...@mind.com> wrote:
> >There are some exceptions, those Americans whose French is excellent. When
> >they say "mass-oose" and "shantoose" (chanteuse) it's ironic.
>
> I know how to pronounce French words, at least passably, but I would
> never pronounce them with a French accent. Anglophones who do that are
> almost always pompous or pedantic. ( You already mentionned ironic.)
> How would you react to an anglophone who said Pah-rhee instead or
> Pear-iss.
Oh, I'm with you on that all the way. People who do that are beyond the
pale of affected and pretentious! You rarely hear it on the AmE side of
the pond, but you do hear it on the BrE side.
Dr Robin Bignall
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
>david56 wrote:
>> Mark Wallace wrote:
>
>>>> But here's the kicker: the word "masseuse" is creeping into AmE
>>>> to mean (a male) masseur.
>>>
>>> Yes, but US masseurs (esp. Californian ones) wear Chantilly lace.
>>
>> And a purty face, and a ponytail hanging down?
>
>And don't forget the wiggle and the giggle.
That's what I like!
(Memory check -- Big Boppa, yes?)
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin
david56
Yes (but Big Bopper). He died in the plane crash that also killed Buddy
Holly and Ritchie Valens.
Pat Durkin
"Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
news:akg7d6$1husc0$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
> Pat Durkin wrote:
>
> > Do you have a website that demonstrates the correct
> > pronunciation? Few Americans have ever studied French, and
> > pronounce the words as they see or hear them, with little need to
> > recourse to a dictionary.
>
> I wouldn't say little *need*; just little recourse.
And I do mean little need. The few who find themselves having to spell
the word, or who hear it pronounced other than with their pronunciation
will, of course, look it up.
I discussed the word "calliope" with an old gentleman today. He got
along fine saying caleeope until he was in his 60s, long after he ceased
teaching English. He heard the word on the radio and finally figured
out what the speaker was saying. He looked the word up and has now
completed part of his education. I congratulated him. He hasn't
stopped learning yet.
Tony Cooper
news:ee7nmu4dgmk9di29a...@4ax.com...
>
> >
> >Most Americans have *enormous* difficulty with French pronunciation.
They
> >can be pretty much relied upon to mangle any French word. I don't
know
> >which is worse, the ignorant mistake, or the valiant failed effort to
get
> >it right.
> >
> >There are some exceptions, those Americans whose French is excellent.
When
> >they say "mass-oose" and "shantoose" (chanteuse) it's ironic.
>
> I know how to pronounce French words, at least passably, but I would
> never pronounce them with a French accent. Anglophones who do that are
> almost always pompous or pedantic. ( You already mentionned ironic.)
> How would you react to an anglophone who said Pah-rhee instead or
> Pear-iss.
I'm one of those crude, badly-educated Yanks that says "mass-soose". I
have no idea at all how the French say the word. I do know that should
I ever seek out a masseuse in the US, my pronunciation will be
understood by anyone that knows the word. Not only understood, but
accepted as correct. That might not be the case for someone that
pronounces it the French way with the French inflection.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
Mark Wallace
> In article <ee7nmu4dgmk9di29a...@4ax.com>, scuse me
> <ze...@mind.com> wrote:
>
>>> There are some exceptions, those Americans whose French is
>>> excellent. When they say "mass-oose" and "shantoose"
>>> (chanteuse) it's ironic.
>>
>> I know how to pronounce French words, at least passably, but I
>> would never pronounce them with a French accent. Anglophones who
>> do that are almost always pompous or pedantic. ( You already
>> mentionned ironic.) How would you react to an anglophone who
>> said Pah-rhee instead or Pear-iss.
>
> Oh, I'm with you on that all the way. People who do that are
> beyond the pale of affected and pretentious!
Either that or they speak French. There's nothing affected or
pretentious about pronouncing words correctly, or how you've been
taught to pronounce them.
I speak Italian, so if I have to say italian words, I automatically
pronounce them correctly. If I have to say Dutch words, like
'grolsch' or 'oranjeboom' (only the good words, you understand), I
automatically use nederlands pronunciation.
That's not affectation or pretention -- a less affected and
pretentious person than me is hard to find -- it's just knowing what
the Hell you're doing, before opening your big, fat mouth.
I also appreciate it when people give me the correct pronunciation
for words that come from languages I don't speak.
Acting like an uneducated slob is terribly passe, you know.
> You rarely hear it
> on the AmE side of the pond, but you do hear it on the BrE side.
And you don't consider it extreme, overbearing arrogance,
desecrating other peoples' words simply because you can't be
bothered to put the effort into learning how to pronounce them
properly?
You don't all have to take Roseanne Barr as your role model.
God bless America.
She needs all the help she can get.
scuse me
So allow me to pose one question: When you are around Anglophones, how
do you pronounce "Paris"? Do you say Pah-rhee or Pear-iss?
MC
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
> > Oh, I'm with you on that all the way. People who do that are
> > beyond the pale of affected and pretentious!
>
> Either that or they speak French. There's nothing affected or
> pretentious about pronouncing words correctly, or how you've been
> taught to pronounce them.
I so speak French. Every single day. But when I speak English I say
Montreal, not Montréal, Paris not Paree...
> I speak Italian, so if I have to say italian words, I automatically
> pronounce them correctly.
...Rome, not Roma, Florence, not Firenze, Venice, not Venezia, Nuremberg
not Nürnberg etc.
> If I have to say Dutch words, like
> 'grolsch' or 'oranjeboom' (only the good words, you understand), I
> automatically use nederlands pronunciation.
And people all over Anglophonia *never* think you're hawking up a loogie
when you say "van Gogh"!
>
> That's not affectation or pretention -- a less affected and
> pretentious person than me is hard to find -- it's just knowing what
> the Hell you're doing, before opening your big, fat mouth.
>
> I also appreciate it when people give me the correct pronunciation
> for words that come from languages I don't speak.
>
> Acting like an uneducated slob is terribly passe, you know.
>
>
> > You rarely hear it
> > on the AmE side of the pond, but you do hear it on the BrE side.
>
> And you don't consider it extreme, overbearing arrogance,
> desecrating other peoples' words simply because you can't be
> bothered to put the effort into learning how to pronounce them
> properly?
> You don't all have to take Roseanne Barr as your role model.
And when there's a long-established English word or pronunciation --
however "wrong" it may be -- I suppose you're saying we should all drop
it.
Chacun à son sale goût!
Dave Swindell
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> writes
how what can be called "misplaced literacy" has affected the English
language everywhere.
There is an undeniable tendency to believe that words in English should
be pronounced like they are spelt, irrespective of their historic
origins and long-term use in the language. Masseuse was used in English
for many, many generations, with all those generations, in all social
classes and educational brackets, happy to pronounce it the way it was
in the original language (French). But for some reason (about which we
could argue for years, but which here I call "misplaced literacy") an
up-coming generation, particularly in America, now chooses to try to
make some English-pronunciation sense of an alien spelling that till now
has not been a problem.
If this generation had not been taught to read at all, they would have
accepted the received French pronunciation without question, and if a
new writing system had emerged then it would most certainly not have
been spelt the French way, though the original pronunciation would have
been preserved.
But because they are now literate, when they come across a strange
spelling they try to treat it within the "rules" of English spelling and
pronunciation. Masseuse, however, has an element that is completely
unfamiliar in everyday English, in spite of the word being otherwise in
reasonably common use, so the result is an "educated guess".
Don't take "misplaced literacy" as a criticism. The term simply
suggests a reason for what is happening in this word as in many, many
others (anti pronounced as an-tye, Kosovo as Koh-soh-voh, route as rowt,
etc).
The ultimate problem is the fact that modern English is barely phonetic,
and the pronunciation of a great many common words has to be learnt
rather than deduced from the spelling. And don't take that as a call
for phoneticisation, I am vehemently against it as so many bold
experiments and previous attempts have come to nothing, and indeed with
the varieties of English everywhere cannot ever succeed.
Masseuse lives quite happily with its original pronunciation in Britain,
probably with the glancing familiarity that the British have with their
cousins across the Channel. But it clashes in an American context where
only a small fraction of the population, on the Canadian border and in
the southern states bought from Napoleon a couple of centuries ago, ever
come across francophones.
So "misplaced literacy" is yet another phenomenon encouraging the
English dialects around the world to diverge, and wouldn't life be
boring without this wonderful diversity :-)
Matti Lamprhey
>
> I discussed the word "calliope" with an old gentleman today. He got
> along fine saying caleeope until he was in his 60s, long after he ceased
> teaching English. He heard the word on the radio and finally figured
> out what the speaker was saying. He looked the word up and has now
> completed part of his education. I congratulated him. He hasn't
> stopped learning yet.
I bet that he'd have guessed correctly from the start had the word been
spelt with a K.
Matti
david56
I say the names of French towns correctly, unless they have well
established English names. Am I pretentious? Do I have to say Bloyes
for "Blois" and Per-pig-nan for Perpignan? Should I not sound out the
"nne" in Narbonne? I think I'll remain pretentious.
Is the answer different if I'm in France?
Re-reading scuse me's definition, it's "using a French accent". What
the hell does this mean? I speak French with an English accent - this
is how they know that I'm not really French (although I can confuse them
by producing a French credit card).
Mark Wallace
'Paris' is the English name of a place, so when using the English
word, I pronounce it the English way -- unless singing "April in
Paris", of course, but that doesn't happen often.
How do you pronounce "déją vu"?
If it's any other way than "dedge-uh vuh", then you're just as much
of a pompous, pretentious ass as the rest of us.
Mark Wallace
> In article <akhmbu$1iiskl$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de>, "Mark
> Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
>
>>> Oh, I'm with you on that all the way. People who do that are
>>> beyond the pale of affected and pretentious!
>>
>> Either that or they speak French. There's nothing affected or
>> pretentious about pronouncing words correctly, or how you've been
>> taught to pronounce them.
>
> I so speak French. Every single day. But when I speak English I
> say Montreal, not Montréal, Paris not Paree...
>
>> I speak Italian, so if I have to say italian words, I
>> automatically pronounce them correctly.
>
> ...Rome, not Roma, Florence, not Firenze, Venice, not Venezia,
> Nuremberg not Nürnberg etc.
The above are all place names. I see no need to translate them into
their native languages, when speaking English, than I see a need to
translate any other word into any foreign language, when speaking
English -- unless, of course, in speaking to someone from one of
those places. Good manners cost nothing.
>> If I have to say Dutch words, like
>> 'grolsch' or 'oranjeboom' (only the good words, you understand),
>> I automatically use nederlands pronunciation.
>
> And people all over Anglophonia *never* think you're hawking up a
> loogie when you say "van Gogh"!
That is a *man's* name. Mispronouncing it (esp. with the
Tarzanesque "vayn Go") is disrespectful -- don't you agree, Mucky?
Pronouncing it correctly, OTOH, can be bloody painful.
>> That's not affectation or pretention -- a less affected and
>> pretentious person than me is hard to find -- it's just knowing
>> what the Hell you're doing, before opening your big, fat mouth.
>>
>> I also appreciate it when people give me the correct
>> pronunciation for words that come from languages I don't speak.
>>
>> Acting like an uneducated slob is terribly passe, you know.
>>
>>> You rarely hear it
>>> on the AmE side of the pond, but you do hear it on the BrE side.
>>
>> And you don't consider it extreme, overbearing arrogance,
>> desecrating other peoples' words simply because you can't be
>> bothered to put the effort into learning how to pronounce them
>> properly?
>
>> You don't all have to take Roseanne Barr as your role model.
>
> And when there's a long-established English word or pronunciation
> -- however "wrong" it may be -- I suppose you're saying we should
> all drop it.
"Long-established" by whom, exactly? Homer Simpson? Elmer Fudd?
What might be 'long-established' in Hicksville, CA is not
necessarily recommended for the entire universe.
This whole discussion smacks of people trying to excuse their
shortfalls by dragging everyone else through the mud.
david56
>
> "Dave Swindell" <dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:E2+ZQLAy...@tcp.co.uk...
> [...]
> > Masseuse was used in English
> > for many, many generations, with all those generations, in all social
> > classes and educational brackets, happy to pronounce it the way it was
> > in the original language (French).
>
> Is this in fact the case? It's undeniable that place-names were anglicised,
> sometimes in spelling as well as pronunciation: Victorians visted Marseilles
> (mah-sails), Lyons (as in the zoo), Rheims (reams) and so on. But what do we
> know about ordinary words?
I've been noticing this a lot recently. Are the English spellings of
"Marseilles" and "Lyons" really thus? Both these towns are "singular"
in French - Lyon and Marseille.
Alan Jones
> for many, many generations, with all those generations, in all social
> classes and educational brackets, happy to pronounce it the way it was
> in the original language (French).
Is this in fact the case? It's undeniable that place-names were anglicised,
sometimes in spelling as well as pronunciation: Victorians visted Marseilles
(mah-sails), Lyons (as in the zoo), Rheims (reams) and so on. But what do we
know about ordinary words?
Alan Jones
MC
But I have a nagging little doubt about it. It's said that about one third
of English vocabulary was imported and coopted from French, and the
process got a big boost from the Norman conquest.
IOW what you're talking about has been going on since 1066.
In article <E2+ZQLAy...@tcp.co.uk>, Dave Swindell
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:52:49 +0200, "Mark Wallace"
>> <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
>>
>> >david56 wrote:
>> >> Mark Wallace wrote:
>> >
>> >>>> But here's the kicker: the word "masseuse" is creeping into AmE
>> >>>> to mean (a male) masseur.
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, but US masseurs (esp. Californian ones) wear Chantilly lace.
>> >>
>> >> And a purty face, and a ponytail hanging down?
>> >
>> >And don't forget the wiggle and the giggle.
>>
>> That's what I like!
>>
>> (Memory check -- Big Boppa, yes?)
>
>Yes (but Big Bopper). He died in the plane crash that also killed Buddy
>Holly and Ritchie Valens.
I wasn't sure if 'Chantilly Lace' was his song or not.
Incidentally, the two happenings that caused the most grief in my
schooldays -- kids walked around with long faces for days discussing them
-- were Buddy Holly's death and the split between Dean Martin and Jerry
Lewis.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin
MC
<bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > Oh, I'm with you on that all the way. People who do that are beyond the
> > pale of affected and pretentious! You rarely hear it on the AmE side of
> > the pond, but you do hear it on the BrE side.
>
> I say the names of French towns correctly, unless they have well
> established English names. Am I pretentious? Do I have to say Bloyes
> for "Blois" and Per-pig-nan for Perpignan? Should I not sound out the
> "nne" in Narbonne? I think I'll remain pretentious.
No of course not.
>
> Is the answer different if I'm in France?
The answer is different if you're speaking French.
>
> Re-reading scuse me's definition, it's "using a French accent". What
> the hell does this mean? I speak French with an English accent - this
> is how they know that I'm not really French (although I can confuse them
> by producing a French credit card).
Yeah, that's what I do with them too -- wave money in their faces (and
speak loudly) -- never fails to convince them that I'm French!
;-)
MC
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
> >> If I have to say Dutch words, like
> >> 'grolsch' or 'oranjeboom' (only the good words, you understand),
> >> I automatically use nederlands pronunciation.
> >
> > And people all over Anglophonia *never* think you're hawking up a
> > loogie when you say "van Gogh"!
>
> That is a *man's* name. Mispronouncing it (esp. with the
> Tarzanesque "vayn Go") is disrespectful -- don't you agree, Mucky?
> Pronouncing it correctly, OTOH, can be bloody painful.
"van goff" or "van goch" are just as erroneous -- do you *really* say it
the way the Dutch say it? If so, does anglophone know what you're talking
about?
>
>
> >> That's not affectation or pretention -- a less affected and
> >> pretentious person than me is hard to find -- it's just knowing
> >> what the Hell you're doing, before opening your big, fat mouth.
> >>
> >> I also appreciate it when people give me the correct
> >> pronunciation for words that come from languages I don't speak.
> >>
> >> Acting like an uneducated slob is terribly passe, you know.
> >>
> >>> You rarely hear it
> >>> on the AmE side of the pond, but you do hear it on the BrE side.
> >>
> >> And you don't consider it extreme, overbearing arrogance,
> >> desecrating other peoples' words simply because you can't be
> >> bothered to put the effort into learning how to pronounce them
> >> properly?
> >
> >> You don't all have to take Roseanne Barr as your role model.
> >
> > And when there's a long-established English word or pronunciation
> > -- however "wrong" it may be -- I suppose you're saying we should
> > all drop it.
>
> "Long-established" by whom, exactly? Homer Simpson? Elmer Fudd?
> What might be 'long-established' in Hicksville, CA is not
> necessarily recommended for the entire universe.
>
> This whole discussion smacks of people trying to excuse their
> shortfalls by dragging everyone else through the mud.
Yeah, that's me. Guilty as charged.
Mark Wallace
> In article <aki8t2$1icsa1$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de>, "Mark
> Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
>
>>>> If I have to say Dutch words, like
>>>> 'grolsch' or 'oranjeboom' (only the good words, you
>>>> understand), I automatically use nederlands pronunciation.
>>>
>>> And people all over Anglophonia *never* think you're hawking up
>>> a loogie when you say "van Gogh"!
>>
>> That is a *man's* name. Mispronouncing it (esp. with the
>> Tarzanesque "vayn Go") is disrespectful -- don't you agree,
>> Mucky? Pronouncing it correctly, OTOH, can be bloody painful.
>
> "van goff" or "van goch" are just as erroneous -- do you *really*
> say it the way the Dutch say it? If so, does anglophone know what
> you're talking about?
It's his *name*!
How can you say it otherwise? There is only one pronunciation --
that which *he* used.
If you can't handle the Dutch 'g's and 'ch's, go with: "The artist
formerly known as vayn Go".
--
Begin PCP Signature...
ecallaW kraM
...End PCP Signature
_____________________________________________
What does a slightly insane Englishman think of the Dutch?
To find out, visit the Dutch & Such website:
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/dutch/dutch-index.htm
_____________________________________________
Pat Durkin
"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:aki0ck$1j1ug9$1...@ID-103223.news.dfncis.de...
> spelt with a K.
I couldn't say. He feels that if he had had a normal preparation to
teach English, he would have had some background in Greek mythology. As
it was, he only taught English briefly in the immediate post-war era as
a substitute, when there was a great shortage. His English language
training was in journalism.
(Side comment: I don't attribute his wandering mind nowadays to
Alzheimer's, but he is very indecisive. I am trying to get him to write
some of his meanderings down so that they can be better organized for
presentation to senior citizen groups. He has wonderful memories of the
town in which we live. His dad invented, manufactured and marketed a
milking machine. And then, during the war, his father's company
employed 300 people in the manufacture of torpedo fuses, among other
things.)
MC
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
> > "van goff" or "van goch" are just as erroneous -- do you *really*
> > say it the way the Dutch say it? If so, does anglophone know what
> > you're talking about?
>
> It's his *name*!
> How can you say it otherwise? There is only one pronunciation --
> that which *he* used.
Oh, I see. There is only one pronunciation. Sorry to have been so obtuse.
I'll be sure to use it from now on. Thanks.
Pat Durkin
> for many, many generations, with all those generations, in all social
> classes and educational brackets, happy to pronounce it the way it was
> in the original language (French).
I don't think the job was held by many people, or for very many
generations in the US. I doubt that very many people have had the need
to use the services of such a practitioner, male or female, nor to talk
about it, until very recently.
The main source of recognition has been movie magazines, gossip
columnists, and people who have the money to attend "fat farms".
Most of us have looked at the performance of massage as (a) a knack that
chiropractors use to get one's spinal column back into alignment
(sometimes we called the practitioner a therapist), or (b) a rather
disreputable means of getting ones rocks off, performed by a massage
artist (sometimes known as a prostitute).
Nowadays, masseurs and masseuses hang out in classier joints: strip mall
tanning and bikini-waxing parlors, and fitness palaces--that is, places
that are no longer exclusively patronized by the filthy rich. Most of
the practitioners don't know how the French pronounce the words. They
just ask if one wants a massage.
> But for some reason (about which we
> could argue for years, but which here I call "misplaced literacy") an
> up-coming generation, particularly in America, now chooses to try to
> make some English-pronunciation sense of an alien spelling that till
now
> has not been a problem.
doubt, leave 'em out!!
This is absolute rubbish. What kind of prophet do you consider yourself
to be? Upcoming generation?
Tony Cooper
> This whole discussion smacks of people trying to excuse their
> shortfalls by dragging everyone else through the mud.
Hold on a mo. Are you saying that my pronunciation of "mass-soose" is a
shortfall of good manners? It's not a word that I can remember using
all that often, but if I'm going to use it, then I'm going to use it as
it is understood by the people I'm using it around. I don't know the
French pronunciation, but if it's noticeably different then I would
consider using it to be lacking in manners and pretentious. Showing
off, if you will, that I know the "correct" version.
I don't consider "masseuse" to be a French word as it is used here.
It's a term to describe a particular vocation that has become an
American word by dint of usage. It simply has roots in French much as
most of our words have some roots in another language. However, if I
were to use "arrondissement", I would attempt to use the French
pronunciation because it's a French word that's not emigrated and taken
on a new form.
Peter Duncanson
<dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>Don't take "misplaced literacy" as a criticism. The term simply
>suggests a reason for what is happening in this word as in many, many
>others (anti pronounced as an-tye, Kosovo as Koh-soh-voh, route as rowt,
>etc).
The inhabitants of Kosovo can't agree on the spelling and
pronunciation so what chance do we have?
Serb: Kosovo
Albanian: Kosova
I heard a Kosova Albanian on a British TV news broadcast
pronounce the place as Koss-ova. It sounded very similar to
'crossover'.
In English language online discussions about that place some
people use the at sign to avoid giving offence - Kosov@.
--
Peter D.
UK
(posting from a.e.u)
Pat Durkin
"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:37rpmu0vbp2h9u8vf...@4ax.com...
And I heard (someone from that area) describe the country-to-be as
Kosovo, and himself as a Kosova. Both stressed on first syllable.
Mark Wallace
No problem, Mucky.
Mark Wallace
That's fair enough. It may well be that 'mass-soose' will make it
into general use and the dictionaries (although I find that
doubtful), and if it does, it will be an English word.
Until it does, though, it's a mispronunciation of a foreign word.
AISI, the only complaint against pronouncing foreign words correctly
is people's embarrassment at having pronounced them wrongly, leading
to a typically childish "Well, I say it that way, so there!" (esp.
in the US), and that juvenile insistence leads to the continuance of
the incorrect pronunciation.
But why?
If you want to say 'masseuse', why not say 'masseuse'?
--
Mark Wallace
____________________________________________
Ever been stuck on a word, or a point of grammar?
You need to visit the APIHNA World Dictionary
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/apihna/apihna-0.htm
____________________________________________
Polar
wrote:
[...]
>Most of us have looked at the performance of massage as (a) a knack that
>chiropractors use to get one's spinal column back into alignment
>(sometimes we called the practitioner a therapist), or (b) a rather
>disreputable means of getting ones rocks off, performed by a massage
>artist (sometimes known as a prostitute).
[...]
Who, pray, is "most of us" ? I, for one, have always regarded legit.
massage for exactly what it is: A valuable therapeutic and aesthetic
modality. Just wish I could afford it <g> (though there are exchange
of services groups, if one could find them).
As to chiropractic, no connection with massage.
--
Polar
Polar
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
>MC wrote:
>> In article <akf8ql$1hpddr$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de>, "Mark
>> Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Swindell wrote:
[...]
>
>Yes, but US masseurs (esp. Californian ones) wear Chantilly lace.
You DO speak from experience?
--
Polar
Polar
[...]
>I know how to pronounce French words, at least passably, but I would
>never pronounce them with a French accent. Anglophones who do that are
>almost always pompous or pedantic.
Disagree. Just trying to avoid snotty reaction from people who don't
know the "correct" (i.e. French) pronunciation.
( You already mentionned ironic.)
>How would you react to an anglophone who said Pah-rhee instead or
>Pear-iss.
There's an interesting distinction here, which I noticed years ago.
Words we learned *before* acquiring [foreign language] often tend to
get pronounced the English way. Paris is a perfect example.
In the same sentence where I pronounce [other French words]
correctly when speaking to another Anglophone, I'll often
use my pre-French pronunciation of Paris.
Go figure.
--
Polar
Raymond S. Wise
"Polar" <sme...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:egtpmuc03qhutjn29...@4ax.com...
When I'm speaking with another English speaker about the French language, I
use the French pronunciation on French words, but when I am using a fully
naturalized French word, such as "Paris" or "masseuse," I use an English
pronunciation. I took a look in my Hachette-Oxford French dictionary just
now to verify the matter, and "masseuse" is pronounced in English with
different vowels than those which it has in French.
The new pronunciation of "masseuse" shows a move away from an old pattern of
changing the pronunciation of adopted foreign words to a more foreign one.
The word "arpent," a measurement of area used to measure land during the
time of the Norman conquest was once fully naturalized in English but has,
according to the OED2, lost that status and is now pronounced with a French
nasal vowel. The AHD4 and Merriam-Webster's Collegiate also have it
pronounced in the French manner, but the dictionary at www.infoplease.com
has the English pronunciation as well as the French one and says the term is
still used in Quebec and Louisiana.
The words "junta," "avoirdupois," and "fleur-de-lis" have all also undergone
a change from a previously naturalized pronunciation to one influenced by
modern foreign languages.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
david56
>
> The words "junta," "avoirdupois," and "fleur-de-lis" have all also undergone
> a change from a previously naturalized pronunciation to one influenced by
> modern foreign languages.
And "ski". I wonder if the English pronunciation of "ski" has got back
into every day speech of the Finns, who all speak such good English?
Howard Tuckey
"Raymond S. Wise" <illinoi...@mninter.net> wrote in message
news:umq8rs...@corp.supernews.com...
Is it worth asking how the French learned to pronounce the word "Paris?" Did
they mimic the original Greek?
howard
>
Alan Jones
[...]
> It's his *name*!
> How can you say it otherwise? There is only one pronunciation --
> that which *he* used.
Now try Julius Caesar, Cicero and Plato[n].
Alan Jones
Alan Jones
"david56" <bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3D6CA9AC...@ntlworld.com...
> Alan Jones wrote:
[...] It's undeniable that place-names were anglicised,
> > sometimes in spelling as well as pronunciation: Victorians visted
Marseilles
> > (mah-sails), Lyons (as in the zoo), Rheims (reams) and so on. But what
do we
> > know about ordinary words?
>
> I've been noticing this a lot recently. Are the English spellings of
> "Marseilles" and "Lyons" really thus? Both these towns are "singular"
> in French - Lyon and Marseille.
The French spelling is now more usual, I think, but the "s" version is still
found in older books. The change was quite swift - perhaps due to a revision
of publishers' style manuals. I stick with the old forms.
What I dislike is the sudden lurch into e.g. a French accent when a
loan-word or a name is pronounced. The whole configuration of the face -
perhaps even the speaker's posture - has to be altered for a second or two,
as disconcerting in conversation as a momentary lurch into a John Cleese
"silly walk" while respectably proceeding down the Hight Street. I'm sure
most people, including those who speak French tolerably well, pronounce the
occasional word or phrase in, at best, a somewhat anglicised way, and in my
opinion are right to do so. But even I draw the line at "m'sooze".
Alan Jones
Pat Durkin
and what term did you apply to the person? I really don't think even
most middleclass people resorted to personal trainers and massage
therapists until just recently (say, the last 10-15 years), and I doubt
they used those French terms unless they wanted to sound uppity.
I have barely qualified as "middle class", but I claim to be in a
majority. I retired before I could slip back into working class.
> As to chiropractic, no connection with massage.
Manipulation of muscles and tendons so as to permit the vertebra to
re-set themselves appropriately is called an "adjustment", but is
massage, nevertheless. ( I think the out-of-joint situation is called
"sub-luxation")
Come to think of it, how do you pronounce "massage"? I stress the
second syllable, just as in garage, but I believe I hear the first
syllable stressed in BrE. (not to mention the various "a" sounds. he
he!)
Dave Swindell
.net>, MC <copeS...@ca.inter.net> writes
>This is an excellent thesis.
>
>But I have a nagging little doubt about it. It's said that about one third
>of English vocabulary was imported and coopted from French, and the
>process got a big boost from the Norman conquest.
>
>IOW what you're talking about has been going on since 1066.
>
There must certainly have been an analogous phenomenon after the
conquest, with French words gradually coming into common verbal usage,
but what the influences might have been that caused the local English
pronunciation of French words to change can only be guessed at, because
no tape recordings survive from then for us to examine. There is a
tantalising intimation of this change in Chaucer, where the Prioresse
"spake Fraunche of the school of Strattford atte Bowe", but the accent
of Stratford at Bow in the east end of London has changed out of
recognition since then, so we can't know what her French sounded like.
The only thing I am looking at is those words which within living memory
were pronounced one way by a significant part of the population, and
that pronunciation was enshrined in dictionaries, but today "misplaced
literacy" on the part of a newly significant part of the population is
causing the pronunciation to change.
--
Dave dswindel...@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies.
Bike's are bosh, PC's are pointless, and the 1990's are nuts!
Bikes are great, PCs are super, and the 1990s are the time to be!
Save the apostrophe! Get 'em right! If in doubt, leave 'em out!!
Dave Swindell
<p...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>> But for some reason (about which we
>> could argue for years, but which here I call "misplaced literacy") an
>> up-coming generation, particularly in America, now chooses to try to
>> make some English-pronunciation sense of an alien spelling that till
>now
>> has not been a problem.
>doubt, leave 'em out!!
>
>This is absolute rubbish. What kind of prophet do you consider yourself
>to be? Upcoming generation?
>
rubbish? I'm not trying to be any kind of prophet, I'm just reporting
an observation and musing over the causes. And why do you take
exception to "upcoming generation", is there some hidden meaning to it I
haven't cottoned on to? Please explain.
Dave Swindell
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes
>On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:04:51 GMT, Dave Swindell
><dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Don't take "misplaced literacy" as a criticism. The term simply
>>suggests a reason for what is happening in this word as in many, many
>>others (anti pronounced as an-tye, Kosovo as Koh-soh-voh, route as rowt,
>>etc).
>
>The inhabitants of Kosovo can't agree on the spelling and
>pronunciation so what chance do we have?
>
>Serb: Kosovo
>Albanian: Kosova
>
>I heard a Kosova Albanian on a British TV news broadcast
>pronounce the place as Koss-ova. It sounded very similar to
>'crossover'.
>
new to us, when there is already a very consistent pronunciation in the
country concerned. Both Serbs and Albanians pronounce it "Koss-ova",
with the final "o" following general Slavic rules making it sound more
like "a". The "Koh-soh-voh" version is almost an insult to Kosovans of
all ethnic groups. The BBC used to have a team that researched such
things, and gave their announcers reasonable pronunciations for hitherto
unfamiliar place names.
Raymond S. Wise
> "Raymond S. Wise" <illinoi...@mninter.net> wrote in message
> news:umq8rs...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > When I'm speaking with another English speaker about the French language,
> I
> > use the French pronunciation on French words, but when I am using a fully
> > naturalized French word, such as "Paris" or "masseuse," I use an English
> > pronunciation. I took a look in my Hachette-Oxford French dictionary just
> > now to verify the matter, and "masseuse" is pronounced in English with
> > different vowels than those which it has in French.
> >
> > The new pronunciation of "masseuse" shows a move away from an old pattern
> of
> > changing the pronunciation of adopted foreign words to a more foreign one.
> > The word "arpent," a measurement of area used to measure land during the
> > time of the Norman conquest was once fully naturalized in English but has,
> > according to the OED2, lost that status and is now pronounced with a
> French
> > nasal vowel. The AHD4 and Merriam-Webster's Collegiate also have it
> > pronounced in the French manner, but the dictionary at www.infoplease.com
> > has the English pronunciation as well as the French one and says the term
> is
> > still used in Quebec and Louisiana.
> >
> > The words "junta," "avoirdupois," and "fleur-de-lis" have all also
> undergone
> > a change from a previously naturalized pronunciation to one influenced by
> > modern foreign languages.
> >
[...]
> This, perhaps, is a stupid question, but there are gaps...
>
> Is it worth asking how the French learned to pronounce the word "Paris?" Did
> they mimic the original Greek?
> howard
The city is named after the Parisii, a celtic tribe:
From
http://www.celticgrounds.com/chapters/appendix/celtic_tribes.htm#Parisii
"Parisii: A tribe living in the region of modern Paris. Their chief
city, Lutetia, was the predecessor of modern Paris."
The final "s" sound presumably dropped out when it dropped out in so
many other words in French. I suspect that the name of the city of
Paris was always pronounced in English with the "s" sounded, and that
the "s" in Marseilles and Lyons was sounded in English because that's
how those words came into English from French--before the sound change
went into effect.
There are still some words in French in which a final "s" is silent in
Standard French but pronounced in regional dialects: the name Duras,
for example, and James, which is a French name, once spelled Gemmes.
Whether the English "James" came from Old French "James/Gemmes" or
more directly from Late Latin Jacomus is something about which sources
on the Internet disagree. If "James" did indeed come from Old French
"James/Gemmes," then that is still another French word which came into
English with the "s" pronounced, only to lose it in (most dialects of)
Modern French.
Peter Duncanson
<dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <37rpmu0vbp2h9u8vf...@4ax.com>, Peter Duncanson
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes
>>On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:04:51 GMT, Dave Swindell
>><dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Don't take "misplaced literacy" as a criticism. The term simply
>>>suggests a reason for what is happening in this word as in many, many
>>>others (anti pronounced as an-tye, Kosovo as Koh-soh-voh, route as rowt,
>>>etc).
>>
>>The inhabitants of Kosovo can't agree on the spelling and
>>pronunciation so what chance do we have?
>>
>>Serb: Kosovo
>>Albanian: Kosova
>>
>>I heard a Kosova Albanian on a British TV news broadcast
>>pronounce the place as Koss-ova. It sounded very similar to
>>'crossover'.
>>
>My point there is why invent a pronunciation for a place name that is
>new to us, when there is already a very consistent pronunciation in the
>country concerned. Both Serbs and Albanians pronounce it "Koss-ova",
>with the final "o" following general Slavic rules making it sound more
>like "a". The "Koh-soh-voh" version is almost an insult to Kosovans of
>all ethnic groups. The BBC used to have a team that researched such
>things, and gave their announcers reasonable pronunciations for hitherto
>unfamiliar place names.
I understand that the BBC Pronunciation Unit still exists.
It is an advisory body. I doesn't dictate.
The standard British TV/radio pronunciation of Sarajevo is
sara-yea-voe -- with 'sa' as in 'sad' and the second 'a' a
schwa.
However, one reporter who had been living there for months
pronounced it sa-rah-e-voe -- 'sa' as 'suh', the lone 'e' as in
'egg' and stress on the 'rah' and 'voe'. He said it just the
once.
MC
sme...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >Yes, but US masseurs (esp. Californian ones) wear Chantilly lace.
>
> You DO speak from experience?
Aha! I knew my little trap would catch someone! Only someone with
experience would know that I... er... wait. That's not what I meant...
MC
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
> No problem, Mucky.
What's with the name-calling? Is that how you respond to everyone who
disagrees with you, or have I done something special to attract your
attention in this manner?
You might want to think twice before doing it, because it does seem to
reflect on you more than it does on me.
MC
<dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> No, because we haven't had almost universal "literacy" since 1066.
> There must certainly have been an analogous phenomenon after the
> conquest, with French words gradually coming into common verbal usage,
> but what the influences might have been that caused the local English
> pronunciation of French words to change can only be guessed at, because
> no tape recordings survive from then for us to examine. There is a
> tantalising intimation of this change in Chaucer, where the Prioresse
> "spake Fraunche of the school of Strattford atte Bowe", but the accent
> of Stratford at Bow in the east end of London has changed out of
> recognition since then, so we can't know what her French sounded like.
>
> The only thing I am looking at is those words which within living memory
> were pronounced one way by a significant part of the population, and
> that pronunciation was enshrined in dictionaries, but today "misplaced
> literacy" on the part of a newly significant part of the population is
> causing the pronunciation to change.
Thanks for the interesting posts. Things I hadn't thought about before.
Howard Tuckey
"Raymond S. Wise" <mpl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:47dd044c.0208...@posting.google.com...
As I said -- there are gaps!
I had always understood that the city was named after the Paris of Greek
mythology. Thanks for the enlightenment!
A;so that bit about my own middle name!
howardJ.
Howard Tuckey
"Alan Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pzab9.113$Cm...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Evangeline is eighty years young, and attends our church. She needed a ride
to the doctor and then to the hospital, so I picked her up this morning at
nine.
We found the doctor's office okay, but she thought I needed directions to
the hospital. She directed me to a short cut through a cluster of streets
named for composers, and said "Turn right up here, I think it's Bee-tho-ven
or Bay-tho-ven, I never could say that right. He's a famous song writer, you
know..."
I almost cried...
Polar
wrote:
>
>"Polar" <sme...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:m5tpmu8f2vcsohvrs...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:47:24 -0500, "Pat Durkin" <p...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >Most of us have looked at the performance of massage as (a) a knack
>that
>> >chiropractors use to get one's spinal column back into alignment
>> >(sometimes we called the practitioner a therapist), or (b) a rather
>> >disreputable means of getting ones rocks off, performed by a massage
>> >artist (sometimes known as a prostitute).
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Who, pray, is "most of us" ? I, for one, have always regarded legit.
>> massage for exactly what it is: A valuable therapeutic and aesthetic
>> modality. Just wish I could afford it <g> (though there are exchange
>> of services groups, if one could find them).
>>
>OK, Polar, but when did going to a masseuse/masseur become commonplace,
This is Southern California. Need I say more?
>and what term did you apply to the person?
Masseur? I don't know whether the Beautiful People use a different
ending for a she practitioner.
I really don't think even
>most middleclass people resorted to personal trainers and massage
>therapists until just recently (say, the last 10-15 years), and I doubt
>they used those French terms unless they wanted to sound uppity.
You're probably right about the time frame (hate that term!), but I
can't imagine what else people might have called a masseur.
Anybody know another term? I've never seen/heard one.
>
>I have barely qualified as "middle class", but I claim to be in a
>majority. I retired before I could slip back into working class.
Neat trick!
>
>> As to chiropractic, no connection with massage.
>
>Manipulation of muscles and tendons so as to permit the vertebra to
>re-set themselves appropriately is called an "adjustment", but is
>massage, nevertheless. ( I think the out-of-joint situation is called
>"sub-luxation")
Here's a Web site explaining subluxation. With photos:
http://www.echiropractic.net/what_is_a_subluxation.htm
>Come to think of it, how do you pronounce "massage"? I stress the
>second syllable, just as in garage, but I believe I hear the first
>syllable stressed in BrE. (not to mention the various "a" sounds. he
>he!)
I pronounce it just as you do, and I think most people do. At least
in LeftPondia.
--
Polar
Pat Durkin
"Dave Swindell" <dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bjPOFXA2...@tcp.co.uk...
> In article <umplapg...@corp.supernews.com>, Pat Durkin
> <p...@hotmail.com> writes
> >
> >> But for some reason (about which we
> >> could argue for years, but which here I call "misplaced literacy")
an
> >> up-coming generation, particularly in America, now chooses to try
to
> >> make some English-pronunciation sense of an alien spelling that
till
> >>now has not been a problem.
> >
> >This is absolute rubbish. What kind of prophet do you consider
yourself
> >to be? Upcoming generation?
> >
> I don't understand your point. Please explain. What is absolute
> rubbish? I'm not trying to be any kind of prophet, I'm just reporting
> an observation and musing over the causes. And why do you take
> exception to "upcoming generation", is there some hidden meaning to it
I
> haven't cottoned on to? Please explain.
Was I making a rash assumption? If so, I regret it, but you have a
posting address in the UK, and you make a judgment about a
not-yet-formed generation, a prediction if you will, "particularly in
America", which "chooses to make English-pronunciation sense of an alien
spelling".
Isn't that precisely what we all do anyway? Don't we convert alien
words to our own sound system, lacking precise education in that alien
tongue? We see, we say, in the best way that we can.
And you say that 'till now that alien spelling has not been a problem.
Maybe it hasn't been a problem in England, (although I am wondering at
this moment what span of British residents has no difficulty with French
pronunciation and spelling. Are you _all_ trained from the cradle in
French pronunciation?), but I would certainly think that in the US, most
have had problems with French pronunciation.
Most of us don't live 50 miles from a French speaking country. Most of
us don't study French for the 1 or 2 years that would provide us with a
grounding in French pronunciation.
>>(additional excerpt from the post I was replying to) Masseuse was used
in English
for many, many generations, with all those generations, in all social
classes and educational brackets, happy to pronounce it the way it was
in the original language (French). <<
I really wonder at your suggestion that "for many, many generations, in
all social classes and educational brackets", the English populace was
accustomed to hiring the services of professional masseurs (euses), much
less pronouncing the words as the French pronounced them. In fact, I
wonder (but will accept your word for it) if even the French of all
classes for many generations hired the services of these people.
What do you man by many generations? I have lived through 3
generations, I suppose, being 65 years of age. I don't consider 3
generations "many". Perhaps 10 generations would be many, and 15 might
be many, many.
Do you think the majority of small shop owners and factory and clerical
workers of England are currently availing themselves of the services of
masseurs, and that they have occasion to say the words correctly (maybe
they do...but I doubt they have occasion to say the words very often)?
Have they done so since the 18th Century? Have the French?
--
=======Pat=======
durk...@msn.com
======Durkin======
MC
sme...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >Manipulation of muscles and tendons so as to permit the vertebra to
> >re-set themselves appropriately is called an "adjustment", but is
> >massage, nevertheless. ( I think the out-of-joint situation is called
> >"sub-luxation")
>
> Here's a Web site explaining subluxation. With photos:
>
> http://www.echiropractic.net/what_is_a_subluxation.htm
Here's another, without photos, but well worth reading:
Tony Cooper
> If you want to say 'masseuse', why not say 'masseuse'?
Because - as I've pointed out in two posts - I know no other
pronunciation. Honestly, I wouldn't know how to say it to a Frenchman.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
Pat Durkin
"MC" <copeS...@ca.inter.net> wrote in message
news:copeSPAMZAP-28...@2cust54.tnt6.montreal.qb.da.uu.net...
Thanks to Polar and to MC.
I found myself one year with strange bumps along my backbone (and
strange stiffness in my hips, which, I suppose might have been pain).
My HMO physician told me to go home and lie on my side alternating
between sides, hug a pillow, alternate between aspirin and
acetaminophen, alternate between hot and cold packs, put a pillow under
the small of my back and do minor flexing exercises (knees to chest and
hug and hold, buttock tightening, alternately lifting one leg to the
chest and then the other, while keeping the other leg straight, and one
inch off the floor).
I did so, and as he recommended, I returned to work after 3 days of
rest. The stiffness was gone. For the next 5 days at about 10 am, each
day I felt a sudden click in my spinal column and got some strange kind
of relief, or head clearing. Each day I could feel the click occur in
a higher location. A cure without the laying on of hands. I
continued those exercises for some months. Probably should renew them,
now that I spend so much time in front of the computer.
My problem occurred when I was severely out of shape and undergoing a
great deal of controlled rage. I think about my poor vertebrae being
pulled all out of joint from the tensing, and thank goodness I didn't go
to a chiropractor. I can just imagine all the sharp points of the bones
being chipped off in the "adjustments", and my being permanently
crippled.
Oh, well. But I still maintain that the manipulation a chiropractor
does (adjustment, etc.) qualifies as massage, just as does Rolfing, and
"deep muscle massage", Swedish massage, Japanese girls walking up and
down my spine, and any other such therapy. I haven't had any of it, and
think I will get along without it, unless I need it for some unforeseen
post-operative rehabilitative need.
Raymond S. Wise
news:umqs8el...@corp.supernews.com...
For what it's worth, massage made it into *The Century Dictionary* of 1895
and its supplement of 1909. None of the following entries were marked as
foreign.
From the Century, at
www.century-dictionary.com (with their pronunciation system replaced by
ASCII IPA)
[quote]
massagist /m&'saZIst/, n. [< _massage_2 +
_-ist._] One who practises massage.
In a libel action yesterday . . . for a slashing criticism
by one _massagist_ of another's book, Judge D---- charged
against the prosecution. _New York Tribune,_ May 30, 1889.
[end quote]
[quote]
masseur, /m&'sR/, n. [F., < _masser,_ knead : see
_massage_2.] A man who practises massage.
masseuse /m&'s@z/, _n._ [F., fem. of _masseur :_ see
_masseur._] A woman who practises massage.
[end quote]
From the Supplement:
[quote]
masser3 /'m&sR/ , _n._ [F. _masser._] A masseur.
[Great Britain.]
A single _masser_ should have strength enough to do the
work without too obvious exhaustion, which gives the
patient an unpleasant impression.
_Encyc. Brit.,_ XXX. 573.
masseur, _n._ 2. An instrument designed for
mechanical massage of the tissues.
[...]
(mas'ing)
massing 3 /'m&sIN/, _n._ Same as _massage._
[Rare.]
Without going so far as to make _massing_ a closed pro-
fession, it is obviously desirable to have some guarantee
of competency. _Encyc. Brit.,_ XXX. 573.
[...]
massotherapeutics /m&s@TEr@'pjutIks/, _n._
[_mass_(_age_) + _therapeutics._] Treatment of
disease by means of massage. Also _masso-
therapy._
[end quote]
I suspect that even the middle class had occasion in the late 19th century
to visit health spas such as those shown in The Road to Wellville and would
have thus become familiar with the art of massage. And in the late 19th
century, I would not be surprised if people learned to do massage out of
books just as they did in the 1960s and '70s.
Pat Durkin
> [end quote]
>
>
> I suspect that even the middle class had occasion in the late 19th
century
> to visit health spas such as those shown in The Road to Wellville and
would
> have thus become familiar with the art of massage.
Whom do you include in the "middle class", then? If they could travel
to Europe from the US in the 19th century, I would call them the
"moneyed class". They don't resemble the kind of people who ran small
shops, practiced law and medicine for their neighbors, taught in the
schools and colleges.
> And in the late 19th
> century, I would not be surprised if people learned to do massage out
of
> books just as they did in the 1960s and '70s.
I suppose they could have, but how many customers would they have had,
in the 19th century, and where would they have carried on their arts? (I
am talking US here. Maybe Saratoga and Hot Springs?)
Hmmm. I am wondering. Did Babbitt indulge? And his womenfolk?
Mark Wallace
I'm not name-calling. I'm simply pronouning 'MC' any bloody way I
feel like.
After all, it's only your name; it's nothing that should be given
any respect.
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
For the intelligent approach to nasty humour, visit:
The Anglo-American Humour (humor) Site
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/mainmenu.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
Mark Wallace
If I've been pronouncing any of them incorrectly, I'll happily be
corrected.
Mark Wallace
> "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
> news:akis6j$1j3vog$1@ID-
>
>> If you want to say 'masseuse', why not say 'masseuse'?
>
> Because - as I've pointed out in two posts - I know no other
> pronunciation. Honestly, I wouldn't know how to say it to a
> Frenchman.
Oooh, that's not good!
Since it's French, you have to mispronounce it *on purpose*.
'Muh-syerz' is close enough to the Fr. pronunciation. Now you know
that, you can say 'mass-soose' with more subtext.
Mark Wallace
Dutch is excellent for the John Cleese element you mention. It's
full of sounds that, to a native English speaker, are not only
silly, but which have to be produced with silly contortions of the
mouth.
Mark Wallace
>> Masseuse was used in English
>> for many, many generations, with all those generations, in all
>> social classes and educational brackets, happy to pronounce it
>> the way it was in the original language (French).
>
> I don't think the job was held by many people, or for very many
> generations in the US. I doubt that very many people have had
> the need to use the services of such a practitioner, male or
> female, nor to talk about it, until very recently.
>
> The main source of recognition has been movie magazines, gossip
> columnists, and people who have the money to attend "fat farms".
>
> Most of us have looked at the performance of massage as (a) a
> knack that chiropractors use to get one's spinal column back into
> alignment (sometimes we called the practitioner a therapist), or
> (b) a rather disreputable means of getting ones rocks off,
> performed by a massage artist (sometimes known as a prostitute).
>
> Nowadays, masseurs and masseuses hang out in classier joints:
strip mall
> tanning and bikini-waxing parlors, and fitness palaces--that is,
> places that are no longer exclusively patronized by the filthy
> rich. Most of the practitioners don't know how the French
> pronounce the words. They just ask if one wants a massage.
The thing is that 'massager', 'massagor', and 'massagist' are such
ugly words that we're better off doing the English thing, and
ripping off a word from another language. With communications the
way they are these days, though, there's no good excuse for
pronouncing it wrongly.
Mark Wallace
> Come to think of it, how do you pronounce "massage"? I stress the
> second syllable, just as in garage, but I believe I hear the first
> syllable stressed in BrE. (not to mention the various "a"
> sounds. he he!)
That's a good question. I normally stress the second syllable for
the verb, and the first for the noun; but I have no idea if that's
the 'approved' pronunciation.
--
Mark Wallace
____________________________
You want nanomachines?
I'll give you bloody nanomachines!
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/m-pages/nmaj.htm
____________________________
Mark Wallace
Excellent comments, Pat.
Far better than all this "I say it wrong, and you're a pretentious
ass if you say it right!" malarkey.
This is where the thread should have started, not ended up.
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
Learn decent table manners:
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/m-pages/etiquette.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
Mark Wallace
Place names with the stress anywhere but on the first syllable
always catch me out. Ever heard of the MaasTRICHT treaty?
--
Mark Wallace
____________________________________________
Ever been stuck on a word, or a point of grammar?
You need to visit the APIHNA World Dictionary
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/apihna/apihna-0.htm
____________________________________________
Polar
wrote:
[...]
>Oh, well. But I still maintain that the manipulation a chiropractor
>does (adjustment, etc.) qualifies as massage, just as does Rolfing, and
>"deep muscle massage", Swedish massage, Japanese girls walking up and
>down my spine, and any other such therapy. I haven't had any of it, and
>think I will get along without it, unless I need it for some unforeseen
>post-operative rehabilitative need.
Speaking of walking up & down spines...
Couple of years ago, when I was running the Tatshenshini-Alsek River
systems out of Canada through Alaska, one of our guides developed a
little problema in that area -- the spine, not Alaska...
Guess who cured el problema.
Of course I was a few pounds lighter then...
--
Polar
Tony Cooper
> Tony Cooper wrote:
> > "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
> > news:akis6j$1j3vog$1@ID-
> >
> >> If you want to say 'masseuse', why not say 'masseuse'?
> >
> > Because - as I've pointed out in two posts - I know no other
> > pronunciation. Honestly, I wouldn't know how to say it to a
> > Frenchman.
>
> Oooh, that's not good!
> Since it's French, you have to mispronounce it *on purpose*.
> 'Muh-syerz' is close enough to the Fr. pronunciation. Now you know
> that, you can say 'mass-soose' with more subtext.
Since many massage parlours offer extra services on demand, I don't
think I'll try this one out. If I ask for one of those, I'd most likely
get a "For a $20 tip, I'll put whatever it is wherever you want or for
$100 more, you can put whatever it is wherever you want."
MC
<mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote:
> I'm not name-calling. I'm simply pronouning 'MC' any bloody way I
> feel like.
> After all, it's only your name; it's nothing that should be given
> any respect.
Oh. I get it.
Just I cvall you "prick" as I send you into the kill file.
Have a happy life.
Plonk.
meirman
<mwallace...@dse.nl> posted:
>>
>> So allow me to pose one question: When you are around
>> Anglophones, how do you pronounce "Paris"? Do you say Pah-rhee or
>> Pear-iss?
>
>'Paris' is the English name of a place, so when using the English
>word, I pronounce it the English way -- unless singing "April in
>Paris", of course, but that doesn't happen often.
>
>How do you pronounce "déjà vu"?
>If it's any other way than "dedge-uh vuh", then you're just as much
>of a pompous, pretentious ass as the rest of us.
Most Americans says dayzhah voo, I believe.
How do you feel about people singing with a group who let their voices
rise much higher, loude , than everyone else? Even if they are on
pitch?
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
Raymond S. Wise
>
> "Raymond S. Wise" <illinoi...@mninter.net> wrote in message
> news:umr87ni...@corp.supernews.com...
[...]
> > I suspect that even the middle class had occasion in the late 19th
> century
> > to visit health spas such as those shown in The Road to Wellville and
> would
> > have thus become familiar with the art of massage.
>
> Whom do you include in the "middle class", then? If they could travel
> to Europe from the US in the 19th century, I would call them the
> "moneyed class". They don't resemble the kind of people who ran small
> shops, practiced law and medicine for their neighbors, taught in the
> schools and colleges.
>
I was thinking of spas in the US, like that in Michigan shown in The Road to
Wellville (a real place, although the story told in the book and movie was
fictitious).
> > And in the late 19th
> > century, I would not be surprised if people learned to do massage out
> of
> > books just as they did in the 1960s and '70s.
>
> I suppose they could have, but how many customers would they have had,
> in the 19th century, and where would they have carried on their arts? (I
> am talking US here. Maybe Saratoga and Hot Springs?)
>
I wasn't thinking of them learning it from books and them practicing it as a
paying craft, but practicing on family. The US has gone through periods
where people were into self-improvement and so-called health foods. The '60s
were one such period and the 19th century may have had more than one.
> Hmmm. I am wondering. Did Babbitt indulge? And his womenfolk?
>
Well, you can do wonderful things with the Internet. I downloaded a copy of
Sinclair Lewis's *Babbitt* and did a few searches of the text. I came up
with the following in a search for "massage." The location is the Pompeian
Barber Shop in the Hotel Thornleigh, of which Babbitt was a regular
customer:
[quote]
About him was luxury, rich and delicate. One votary was having a violet-ray
facial treatment, the next an oil shampoo. Boys wheeled about miraculous
electrical massage-machines. The barbers snatched steaming towels from a
machine like a howitzer of polished nickel and disdainfully flung them away
after a second's use. On the vast marble shelf facing the chairs were
hundreds
of tonics, amber and ruby and emerald. It was flattering to Babbitt to have
two personal slaves at once--the barber and the bootblack. He would have
been
completely happy if he could also have had the manicure girl. The barber
snipped at his hair and asked his opinion of the Havre de Grace races, the
baseball season, and Mayor Prout. The young negro bootblack hummed "The
Camp
Meeting Blues" and polished in rhythm to his tune, drawing the shiny
shoe-rag
so taut at each stroke that it snapped like a banjo string. The barber was
an
excellent salesman. He made Babbitt feel rich and important by his manner of
inquiring, "What is your favorite tonic, sir? Have you time to-day, sir,
for
a facial massage? Your scalp is a little tight; shall I give you a scalp
massage?"
[end quote]
A search for "health" turned up the following incident in which Babbitt
suffered through a speech in which a Mrs. Mudge said:
[quote]
Babbitt is said to have suffered through a talk at which a Mrs. Mudge gave a
speech in which she said the following:
[quote]
"Now let me suggest to all of you the advantages of the Theosophical and
Pantheistic Oriental Reading Circle, which I represent. Our object is to
unite all the manifestations of the New Era into one cohesive whole--New
Thought, Christian Science, Theosophy, Vedanta, Bahaism, and the other
sparks
from the one New Light. The subscription is but ten dollars a year, and for
this mere pittance the members receive not only the monthly magazine, Pearls
of Healing, but the privilege of sending right to the president, our revered
Mother Dobbs, any questions regarding spiritual progress, matrimonial
problems, health and well-being questions, financial difficulties, and--"
[end quote]
So Babbitt was familiar with a sort of massage, and was exposed to a
variation of a self-help movement associated with a monthly magazine. (I
forgot about the magazines!)
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota
meirman
<a...@blueyonder.co.uk> posted:
>
>"Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
>news:akiggl$1ion46$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
>[...]
>> It's his *name*!
>> How can you say it otherwise? There is only one pronunciation --
>> that which *he* used.
>[...]
>
>Now try Julius Caesar, Cicero and Plato[n].
Is there any other way to pronounce it than play-dough?
>
>Alan Jones
Mark Wallace
heh.
What's good for the goose is obviously not good for the gander.
I hope he can peacefully 'vayn Go' to sleep at night.
Mark Wallace
> "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
> news:akk96g$1ii8vu$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
>>> news:akis6j$1j3vog$1@ID-
>>>
>>>> If you want to say 'masseuse', why not say 'masseuse'?
>>>
>>> Because - as I've pointed out in two posts - I know no other
>>> pronunciation. Honestly, I wouldn't know how to say it to a
>>> Frenchman.
>>
>> Oooh, that's not good!
>> Since it's French, you have to mispronounce it *on purpose*.
>> 'Muh-syerz' is close enough to the Fr. pronunciation. Now you
>> know that, you can say 'mass-soose' with more subtext.
>
> Since many massage parlours offer extra services on demand, I
> don't think I'll try this one out. If I ask for one of those,
> I'd most likely get a "For a $20 tip, I'll put whatever it is
> wherever you want or for $100 more, you can put whatever it is
> wherever you want."
"Ok, I'll put your month's earnings in my bank account".
Good deal!
Mark Wallace
"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:o0ermus3dnbqm523v...@4ax.com...
> In alt.english.usage on Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:05:22 +0200 "Mark
Wallace"
> <mwallace...@dse.nl> posted:
>
> >>
> >> So allow me to pose one question: When you are around
> >> Anglophones, how do you pronounce "Paris"? Do you say Pah-rhee
or
> >> Pear-iss?
> >
> >'Paris' is the English name of a place, so when using the English
> >word, I pronounce it the English way -- unless singing "April in
> >Paris", of course, but that doesn't happen often.
> >
> >If it's any other way than "dedge-uh vuh", then you're just as
much
> >of a pompous, pretentious ass as the rest of us.
>
> Most Americans says dayzhah voo, I believe.
Yup. Nothing pompous, pretentious, etc, about it. It's just the
right way to pronounce the words.
> How do you feel about people singing with a group who let their
voices
> rise much higher, loude , than everyone else? Even if they are on
> pitch?
Depends how far away from them I'm standing.
Mark Wallace
> In alt.english.usage on Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:40:28 +0100 "Alan
> Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> posted:
>
>>
>> "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
>> news:akiggl$1ion46$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
>> [...]
>>> It's his *name*!
>>> How can you say it otherwise? There is only one pronunciation -
>> [...]
>>
>> Now try Julius Caesar, Cicero and Plato[n].
>
> Is there any other way to pronounce it than play-dough?
It's 'Cicero' that's bugging me. How else can it be pronounced than
'sissero?
Raymond S. Wise
> meirman wrote:
> > In alt.english.usage on Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:40:28 +0100 "Alan
> > Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> posted:
> >
> >>
> >> "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
> >> news:akiggl$1ion46$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
> >> [...]
> >>> It's his *name*!
> >>> How can you say it otherwise? There is only one pronunciation -
> >>> - that which *he* used.
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> Now try Julius Caesar, Cicero and Plato[n].
> >
> > Is there any other way to pronounce it than play-dough?
>
> It's 'Cicero' that's bugging me. How else can it be pronounced than
> 'sissero?
>
"KEE-ke-roh" or "KIH-keh-roh." I'm not sure of the pronunciation of the
"i"--Web sources had both--but the "c" is definitely pronounced like a "k"
in reconstructed Classical Latin. This pronunciation is meant to represent
the pronunciation of the Late Roman Republic, so it is as close a
representation to how Cicero spoke his own name as we can make it.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Dave Swindell
<p...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>> >
>> >This is absolute rubbish. What kind of prophet do you consider
>yourself
>> >to be? Upcoming generation?
>> >
>> I don't understand your point. Please explain. What is absolute
>> rubbish? I'm not trying to be any kind of prophet, I'm just reporting
>> an observation and musing over the causes. And why do you take
>> exception to "upcoming generation", is there some hidden meaning to it
>I
>> haven't cottoned on to? Please explain.
>
>Was I making a rash assumption? If so, I regret it, but you have a
>posting address in the UK, and you make a judgment about a
>not-yet-formed generation, a prediction if you will, "particularly in
>America", which "chooses to make English-pronunciation sense of an alien
>spelling".
>
pondian point of view, for any confusion emanating from which I humbly
apologise.
I don't suggest that the actual use of a masseur/masseuse has anything
to do with it, and this particular word is only one such example. My
point is that however a word may have come into the language, before
universal literacy we would only have had the *sound* of the word to go
on, and any curious French noises would probably have toned down to
English approximations, so masseuse became mass-e(r)ze with a non-rhotic
"r". "Misplaced literacy" takes the very un-English written "euse" and
tries to make sense of it from English pronunciation rules, but there
aren't any that fit the bill, so they make an intelligent guess.
Let's look at 1874, and compulsory education of children in Britain.
Teachers in those days all had a knowledge of French, though their
dialect reflected elements of Chaucer's Prioresse, since many of them
had been taught by English people who had been taught by English people
who had ...... So French words in English were pronounced with a
*strong* English accent, but roughly followed the French. This
contributed to the pleasure in public entertainments of the day, at all
social levels, such as the music hall, and later wax cylinders and
shellac recordings, as well as novels, where there has always been
extensive play on words, with plays on French, and other continental
accents, easily understood (such as that famous British entertainer
known as Mon-sewer Eddie Grey).
So, if we hadn't learned how to read, to pronounce those strange strings
of symbols called "letters of the alphabet", we would have continued to
take French, say, words and Anglicise the *perceived heard* syllables in
a particular way. My point is that the pronunciation of written
"strings of symbols" in French is in many cases completely different
from the way English speakers would interpret them. So when any person
comes across a completely unfamiliar "written" word, or a word whose
heard pronunciation clashes with what they see on the page, they have a
problem. Unless they are already familiar with similar French words, in
which case their guess may well approximate French, but still with an
English accent.
Perhaps in the American context somebody could look at Anglophone
pronunciation of Spanish words, and Hispanic pronunciation of English
words, to see if a similar "misplaced literacy" effect holds for left-
pondians.
--
Dave dswindel...@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies.
Bike's are bosh, PC's are pointless, and the 1990's are nuts!
Bikes are great, PCs are super, and the 1990s are the time to be!
Save the apostrophe! Get 'em right! If in doubt, leave 'em out!!
Alan Jones
> meirman wrote:
> > In alt.english.usage on Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:40:28 +0100 "Alan
> > Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> posted:
> >
> >>
> >> "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
> >> news:akiggl$1ion46$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
> >> [...]
> >>> It's his *name*!
> >>> How can you say it otherwise? There is only one pronunciation -
> >>> - that which *he* used.
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> Now try Julius Caesar, Cicero and Plato[n].
> >
> > Is there any other way to pronounce it than play-dough?
>
> It's 'Cicero' that's bugging me. How else can it be pronounced than
> 'sissero?
"There is only one pronunciation - that which *he* used."
So, following your own dictum, presumably you are obliged either to say
approximately "Yoo-lee-oos Kigh-sahr", "Kick-air-o" and "Plah-tawn", or to
refuse to say the names at all because you are not quite sure how they were
pronounced in ancient times.
Alan Jones
Mark Wallace
> "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
> news:akkhli$1jp3cf$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
>> meirman wrote:
>>> In alt.english.usage on Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:40:28 +0100 "Alan
>>> Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> posted:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Mark Wallace" <mwallace...@dse.nl> wrote in message
>>>> news:akiggl$1ion46$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
>>>> [...]
>>>>> It's his *name*!
>>>>> How can you say it otherwise? There is only one
>>>>> pronunciation - - that which *he* used.
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Now try Julius Caesar, Cicero and Plato[n].
>>>
>>> Is there any other way to pronounce it than play-dough?
>>
>> It's 'Cicero' that's bugging me. How else can it be pronounced
>> than 'sissero?
>
> "There is only one pronunciation - that which *he* used."
>
> So, following your own dictum, presumably you are obliged either
> to say approximately "Yoo-lee-oos Kigh-sahr",
Nope. 'Giuli~', and the English word 'Caesar' is not to be taken as
his his name.
"Kick-air-o" and "Plah-tawn",
Do you have authoritative cites for these? Since you got 'Giuli~'
and 'Cesere' wrong, I'd like some confirmation, before adopting your
other suggestions.
> or to refuse to say the names at all because you are
> not quite sure how they were pronounced in ancient times.
How on Earth do you arrive at that conclusion?
Mark Wallace
Is 'c' pronounced 'k', even before 'e' and 'i'?
I'm getting confused, now.
Peter Duncanson
Just once - and the "aa" sound was unrecognisable.
--
Peter D.
UK
(posting from a.e.u)
Mark Wallace
The Maas[1] is the river that runs through the places that use its
name as the first syllable of their name, so the Dutch stress the
syllable that's unique to the place.
I really have to force myself to do it; it feels unnatural.
LONdon
LIVerpool
BIRmingham
OXford
MaasSLUIS
<*cough*, *choke*>
[1] It becomes the Meuse, lower down; which, according to another
thread, should be pronounced 'moose'.
MC
their "owners" pronounce/pronounced them.
On that basis...
mei...@erols.com wrote:
> >Now try Julius Caesar, Cicero and Plato[n].
>
> Is there any other way to pronounce it than play-dough?
...I think you're probably ready to try Jesus Christ!
ICS(Pol)MPG
news:kN1b9.52218$DG5....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...> news:E2+ZQLAy...@tcp.co.uk...
> [...]
> > Masseuse was used in English
> > for many, many generations, with all those generations, in all social
> > classes and educational brackets, happy to pronounce it the way it was
> > in the original language (French).
>
> Is this in fact the case? It's undeniable that place-names were
anglicised,
> sometimes in spelling as well as pronunciation: Victorians visted
Marseilles
> (mah-sails), Lyons (as in the zoo), Rheims (reams) and so on. But what do
we
> know about ordinary words?
>
A few years ago we mounted a motorbike rally ending up at Cingoli in Italy.
During a pep talk before setting off one of our number asked about
"Sin-GO-lee" and was corrected, simply because if he'd asked a local the way
he just wouldn't have been understood. In Italian it is more like
"CHIN-golly".
On a rally this year, our glorious leader streaked off ahead of us, and
arrived long after. In his best schoolboy French he'd been asking, as you
do, for the way to "Reems", spelt "Rheims" to an Englishman, but "Rheim"
pronounced "Remm" by the natives whether it has an "s" or not. "Reems" is
just gobbledygook to a Frenchman.
You can have lots of fun in a souvenir shop or a restaurant in Germany with
the words "Putte" and "Pute". The trick is understanding the difference
between "t" and "tt"!
On a rally in the Czech Republic my knowledge of Russian was no help in
guessing at how the place name should really be pronounced. Fortunately
they have excellent road signs so we never got (too ;-) lost. If you really
want to make friends with a Czech, sit down and ask for a lesson in
pronunciation ;-)
Ask a German the way to Koblenz (say it out loud to yourself) and you'll
probably get a blank stare. Ask for KOH-blents and you'll be OK.
And what about good old English:-
Loughborough
Whitton Gilbert
Woolfardisworthy!!!!
And Welsh - Pentre Llyn Cwmr
This misplaced literacy thing is a receipt for for disaster
ICS(Pol)MPG
> >> Place names with the stress anywhere but on the first syllable
> >> always catch me out. Ever heard of the MaasTRICHT treaty?
> >
> > Just once - and the "aa" sound was unrecognisable.
>
> The Maas[1] is the river that runs through the places that use its
> name as the first syllable of their name, so the Dutch stress the
> syllable that's unique to the place.
> I really have to force myself to do it; it feels unnatural.
> LONdon
> LIVerpool
> BIRmingham
> OXford
> MaasSLUIS
NEWbury
NEWton
but
newCASSEL
I've lived there and I still can't say it without embarassing myself.
> <*cough*, *choke*>
>
> [1] It becomes the Meuse, lower down; which, according to another
> thread, should be pronounced 'moose'.
>
Higher up in Frogland actually, but I get your point ;-)
Odysseus
>
> So, following your own dictum, presumably you are obliged either to say
> approximately "Yoo-lee-oos Kigh-sahr", "Kick-air-o" and "Plah-tawn", or to
> refuse to say the names at all because you are not quite sure how they were
> pronounced in ancient times.
>
rendered "plah-tone", with the stress on the second syllable.
--Odysseus
Odysseus
>
> Is 'c' pronounced 'k', even before 'e' and 'i'?
> I'm getting confused, now.
>
more or less identical to the German _Kaiser_ (no coincidence!).
Ecclesiastical Latin is much closer to Italian.
--Odysseus
Odysseus
>
> ...I think you're probably ready to try Jesus Christ!
"Christ" is a Greek title, not a name, equivalent to the Hebrew word
"messiah", meaning "anointed" and referring to an ancient 'coronation'
ceremony. "Jesus" is a hellenized form of an Aramaic name corresponding
to the Hebrew "Joshua".
--Odysseus
Peter Duncanson
<.min...@gtnet.gov.uk> wrote:
>NEWbury
>NEWton
>but
>newCASSEL
>
>I've lived there and I still can't say it without embarassing myself.
You might have even more trouble in the Manchester area
travelling by bus or taxi to "Besses o' th' Barn".
Pat Durkin
"Polar" <sme...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:2ibrmucphfurb0118...@4ax.com...
I picture that wonderful ballet dance in "Fantasia". Actually, I have
that image even in those films in which petite Japanese girls perform
their wonders.
MC
<odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
How did Jesus pronounce his name?