John Doe and Jane Doe
Wilstrup
a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
English- if any?
mm
wrote:
>In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym" for
>a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
>English- if any?
I'm glad you put acronym in quotes, because it's not an acronym. It's
a name or a term. Look up acronym in the dictionary.
John Doe, etc. are used not just for an unknown corpse but for any
unidentified person.
For example, there are plenty of "Doe versus" court cases, although
the most famous case is Roe vs. Wade, where Roe was Mary Roe, an
unidentified female who usually comes right after Jane Doe when there
is more than one unidentified female. There either was a Jane Doe in
the original dispute, but she did not make it to the court case, or
more likely "she" was a litigant in another totally separate case
against Wade or maybe another co-respondent in Roe vs. Wade, and they
didn't want to use Jane Doe again or the two cases would have the same
title and be confused with each other.
There are John Doe arrest warrants issued when it's known that a crime
has been committed and there is enough information to identify, and
arrest, the person suspected, if he is found, even though his name is
not known.
John Doe also means the average man. "Ask any John Doe and he'll
agree with me." I think there is a movie by that name starring Gary
Cooper. I was close. It was called "Meet John Doe". Most cities have
one video store that rents classic movies, so maybe you can watch it.
Don't know about British English.
If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Peter Duncanson
<n...@invalid.com> wrote:
They are not acronyms. An acroynym is an initialism that can
be pronounced as a word, NATO, for example.
(In general BrE "acronym" is often used for any initialism.)
The name John Doe originated in the English legal system.
I don't think it and other "placeholder names" are used in
Britain anymore. At least, they are not used in such a way
that they are reported in the news media.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe
....
History
The "John Doe" custom dates back to the reign of
England's King Edward III,[1] during the legal debate
over something called the Acts of Ejectment. This debate
involved a hypothetical landowner, referred to as "John
Doe", who leased land to another man, the equally
fictitious "Richard Roe", who then took the land as his
own and "ejected", or evicted, poor "John Doe".
These names — John Doe and Richard Roe — had no
particular significance, aside from "Doe" (a female
deer) and "Roe" (a small species of deer found in
Europe) being commonly known nouns at the time. But the
debate became a hallmark of legal theory, and the name
"John Doe" in particular gained wide currency in both
the legal world and general usage as a generic stand-in
for any unnamed person. "John Doe" and "Richard Roe"
are, to this day, mandated in legal procedure as the
first and second names given to unknown defendants in a
case (followed, if necessary, by "John Stiles" and
"Richard Miles"). The name "Jane Doe", a logical female
equivalent, is used in many state jurisdictions, but if
the case is federal the unnamed defendant is dubbed
"Mary Major".
In Friedman v. Ferguson, 850 F.2d 689 (4th Cir. 1988),
the plaintiff pro se somewhat famously used the
following creative variations on John Doe: Brett Boe,
Carla Coe, Donna Doe, Frank Foe, Grace Goe, Harry Hoe,
Jackie Joe, Marta Moe, Norma Noe, Paula Poe, Ralph Roe,
Sammy Soe, Tommy Toe, Vince Voe, William Woe, Xerxes
Xoe.
....
[1] Edward III was king from 13 November 1312 to 21 June
1377. That was well before the United States came into
existence.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Wilstrup
"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> skrev i meddelelsen
news:g42vf31sn53oq5l1k...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:28:59 +0200, "Wilstrup"
> <n...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
>>In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym"
>>for
>>a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
>>English- if any?
>
> I'm glad you put acronym in quotes, because it's not an
> acronym. It's
> a name or a term. Look up acronym in the dictionary.
I know what a acronym is e.g. NATO - but I chose the word in
the lack of a better word at the moment. But my point was not
this, but the possible different words in AmE and BrE.
>
> John Doe, etc. are used not just for an unknown corpse but
> for any
> unidentified person.
Thanx
>
> For example, there are plenty of "Doe versus" court cases,
> although
> the most famous case is Roe vs. Wade, where Roe was Mary
> Roe, an
> unidentified female who usually comes right after Jane Doe
> when there
> is more than one unidentified female. There either was a
> Jane Doe in
> the original dispute, but she did not make it to the court
> case, or
> more likely "she" was a litigant in another totally separate
> case
> against Wade or maybe another co-respondent in Roe vs. Wade,
> and they
> didn't want to use Jane Doe again or the two cases would
> have the same
> title and be confused with each other.
uhu!
>
> There are John Doe arrest warrants issued when it's known
> that a crime
> has been committed and there is enough information to
> identify, and
> arrest, the person suspected, if he is found, even though
> his name is
> not known.
uhu!
>
> John Doe also means the average man. "Ask any John Doe and
> he'll
> agree with me." I think there is a movie by that name
> starring Gary
> Cooper. I was close. It was called "Meet John Doe". Most
> cities have
> one video store that rents classic movies, so maybe you can
> watch it.
I'll probably will.
>
> Don't know about British English.
This is a pity! :-(
Wilstrup
"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> skrev i
meddelelsen news:lu3vf3dbe84vj3i24...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:28:59 +0200, "Wilstrup"
> <n...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym"
>>for
>>a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
>>English- if any?
>>
> They are not acronyms. An acroynym is an initialism that can
> be pronounced as a word, NATO, for example.
I know that - did you notice I put the word in quotation
marks?
I thank you for the etymology of the word but it doesn't say
whether you in BrE uses John Doe in the same way as in the
USA.
Peter Duncanson
<n...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
>I thank you for the etymology of the word but it doesn't say
>whether you in BrE uses John Doe in the same way as in the
>USA.
>
I think I answered that in my posting:
>"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> skrev i
<snip>
>> The name John Doe originated in the English legal system.
>> I don't think it and other "placeholder names" are used in
>> Britain anymore. At least, they are not used in such a way
>> that they are reported in the news media.
<snip>
John Doe and related names are not used in BrE in the same
way as in the USA -- as far as I know.
Wilstrup
Oh, I missed this point - thank you again. But what are they
using then -i.e. the police or the medico-legals?
Peter Duncanson
I'm not professionally involved, but I think that letters
are sometimes used: Woman X, Man X, Child X, Baby X. If
there is more than one woman, man, child or baby to be named
then other letters will be used.
Letters are sometimes used in court to preserve the
anonymity of people involved. Two cases I've seen cited are:
X & Y v Persons Unknown, and CC v AB.
Wilstrup
> Letters are sometimes used in court to preserve the
> anonymity of people involved. Two cases I've seen cited are:
> X & Y v Persons Unknown, and CC v AB.
I see -thank you for your input. I can now figure out wheter a
film I am watching is American or English :-)))
mm
wrote:
>In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe ...what are the similar words in British
>English- if any?
>
BTW, I still don't know about Britain but in Hebrew the name would be
Ploni Almoni. This goes back at least to the Book of Ruth and is used
in the Talmud, and used in Torah study ever since, and used on the web
by anonymous posters, and used in Israel today, for Torah study and
probably outside of it also.
Just like with John Doe, if one thought this name always referred to
the same person, he could get really confused. :-)
OldSage
<n...@invalid.com> wrote:
Not an acronym, more an alias.
In New Zealand and Australia at least, "John Doe" might be employed or
"Mr A" or some ad hoc invention b y the journalist, police or court.
Broadening the use of "John Doe" to refer to "the man in the street"
one might use "Joe Citizen" or "Joe Sixpack"
henri
The usual British equivalent is Joe Bloggs, is it not?
Henri
Robert Lieblich
I think Joe Bloggs corresponds to John Q. Public, but I'm not
confident of that. We may need a UK attorney to clear this up. I'm
crossposting to AUE in search of enlightment.
James Silverton
??>> On 30 Sep, 08:28, "Wilstrup" <n...@invalid.com> wrote:
??>>> In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym"
??>>> for a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in
??>>> British English- if any?
??>>
??>> The usual British equivalent is Joe Bloggs, is it not?
There's also Joe Six-Pack: the ignorant mobster who can't
appreciate what we cognoscenti know!
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Peter Duncanson
<r_s_li...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>henri wrote:
>
>> On 30 Sep, 08:28, "Wilstrup" <n...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> > In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym" for
>> > a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
>> > English- if any?
>>
>> The usual British equivalent is Joe Bloggs, is it not?
>
>I think Joe Bloggs corresponds to John Q. Public, but I'm not
>confident of that.
That is the only way I've seen or heard Joe Bloggs being
used. "Joe Bloggs" would be much too informal to be used as
a name for an unidentified corpse.
>We may need a UK attorney to clear this up. I'm
>crossposting to AUE in search of enlightment.
IANAL.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Wikipedia says that "Doe" itself was originally British:
The "John Doe" custom dates back to the reign of England's King
Edward III, during the legal debate over something called the Acts
of Ejectment. This debate involved a hypothetical landowner,
referred to as "John Doe", who leased land to another man, the
equally fictitious "Richard Roe", who then took the land as his
own and "ejected", or evicted, poor "John Doe".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe
(Ya gotta love that "something called the Acts of Ejectment".)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |To find the end of Middle English,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you discover the exact date and
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time the Great Vowel Shift took
|place (the morning of May 5, 1450,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |at some time between neenuh fiftehn
(650)857-7572 |and nahyn twenty-fahyv).
| Kevin Wald
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Don Aitken
<r_s_li...@yahoo.com> wrote:
John Doe and Richard Roe, as placeholders for the parties in
litigation, originated in England several centuries ago, but now
survive, I think, only in the USA, where they, and similar names, are
still used for parties who have been granted a anonymity by the court
- "Jane Roe" of Roe v. Wade is probably the best known example. We
don't use such pseudonyms in England now - an anonymous party is
identified by a letter, which is why the law reports of the Family
Division are full of cases called "A v. A" and "in re B". And an
unidentified corpse is just an unidentified corpse.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
mm
<not.jim....@verizon.not> wrote:
> Robert wrote on Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:24:12 -0400:
>
> ??>> On 30 Sep, 08:28, "Wilstrup" <n...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> ??>>> In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym"
> ??>>> for a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in
> ??>>> British English- if any?
> ??>>
> ??>> The usual British equivalent is Joe Bloggs, is it not?
>
>There's also Joe Six-Pack: the ignorant mobster who can't
Mobster? I thought Joe Six-pack was a regular guy who brought a six
pack to the game (football or baseball) or to the couch when he
watched the game on tv.
BTW, I haven't looked it up but I think in Roe v. Wade there was
another plaintiff Doe, but she got dropped somewhere in the appeals
process, I suppose because the issue on appeal didn't apply to her.
>appreciate what we cognoscenti know!
>
>
>James Silverton
>Potomac, Maryland
>
>E-mail, with obvious alterations:
>not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Mike M
I don't think there is a British John Doe equivalent, at least not one
known by the general public (police and forensic pathologists may have
one that they use amongst themselves).
I always thought Mr. Bloggs was called Fred. Maybe Joe is his brother.
But he isn't dead, anyway - he's the man on the Clapham omnibus.
Mike M
Peter Duncanson
Fred Bloggs has a cousin Joe Soap.
I don't think I've heard of Joe Soap very much in the last
few decades.
Archie Valparaiso
wrote:
>On 3 Oct, 23:24, Robert Lieblich <r_s_liebl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes. Isn't it Fred Bloggs and Joe Blow?
--
Archie Valparaiso
Archie Valparaiso
He had it changed by deed poll to Wayne Showergel.
--
Archie Valparaiso
Don Phillipson
>
> > > In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym" for
> > > a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
> > > English- if any?
American usage in law textbooks of the names
John Doe and Richard Roe as model litigants seems
to antedate the use of acronyms in English (unless
we include CABAL, 17th century.)
British usage (before satellite TV) had no similar
standard name to use for unidentified corpses etc.
The world famous British precedent of this type was
Thomas Atkins for a soldier (tommy), apparently
used before the First World War to show semiliterate
volunteers how to complete army enlistment
documents. In civilian life, partial lists of names
(e.g. for sports teams) are formally completed by
adding the name A.N. Other.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
HVS
>>> On 30 Sep, 08:28, "Wilstrup" <n...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym" for
>>>> a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
>>>> English- if any?
>
> American usage in law textbooks of the names
> John Doe and Richard Roe as model litigants seems
> to antedate the use of acronyms in English (unless
> we include CABAL, 17th century.)
On-line references claim that "John Doe" and "Richard Roe" date
back to Edward III; the source appears to be a book called "What's
in a Name?"
This is from http://www.word-detective.com/112701.html#johndoe:
(quote)
Fortunately, I happen to have on my shelf a fine book called
"What's In A Name?" by the learned and prolific Paul Dickson
(Merriam-Webster, 1996) which deals with just this sort of
question. It turns out that the "John Doe" custom dates back to the
reign of England's King Edward III, during the legal debate over
something called the Acts of Ejectment. This debate involved a
hypothetical landowner, referred to as "John Doe," who leased land
to another man, the equally fictitious "Richard Roe," who then took
the land as his own and "ejected," or evicted, poor "John Doe."
(/quote)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Don Phillipson
>
> > > In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym" for
> > > a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
> > > English- if any?
American usage in law textbooks of the names
John Doe and Richard Roe as model litigants seems
to antedate the use of acronyms in English (unless
we include CABAL, 17th century.)
British usage (before satellite TV) had no similar
Mike Lyle
I'm not sure how British Joe Blow is. But I'm sure Joe Bloggs is more
usual than Fred of that ilk: note that clever entrepreneur of
subcontinental origin who chose it as brand name for his clothes. Mr
Public is called Joe, too, but he isn't the same person as Joe Bloggs. I
wonder if Fred has become more popular since everybody got a
keyboard.(And where, pray, were you during the SDC?)
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
tony cooper
<d.phillips...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>British usage (before satellite TV) had no similar
>standard name to use for unidentified corpses etc.
I don't know how universal police codes are in the US, but a "10-54"
is a "possible dead body". All bodies are only "possibly dead" as far
as the discovering police officer is concerned. He or she is not
qualified to pronounce the discovery to no longer among the living.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Roland Hutchinson
I think I may once have seen them all riding the Clapham Omnibus together.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Archie Valparaiso
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>[...] where, pray, were you during the SDC?)
I saw that Wor Vin was playing a blinder so I shuffled off to save my
pride and hoped nobody would notice. It didn't work, evidently.
Actually, I've been busy exploring the wild and wacky -- and largely
deserted, actually -- world (=EstE, weh-ood) that is Second Life. Oh,
the tales I could tell....
--
Archie Valparaiso
LFS
Why do they let you choose your first name but not your second? I didn't
like any of those on offer so never got any further with registering.
(Getting sucked into Facebook is bad enough.)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Don Phillipson
news:v9u9g31t5j5gkikq8...@4ax.com...
> I don't know how universal police codes are in the US, but a "10-54"
> is a "possible dead body". All bodies are only "possibly dead" as far
> as the discovering police officer is concerned. He or she is not
> qualified to pronounce the discovery to no longer among the living.
Last night''s CSI New York featured a couple of
corpses retrieved from the Hudson River, badly
nibbled by crabs after two or three weeks under water.
Viewers would probably have remembered if our
heroes had reported this discovery as "possibly dead."
tony cooper
The 10-54 is called in by the officers who first discover the body.
Despite what you might see on our television programs, special units
are not usually the first at the scene discovering bodies. They don't
call in the report. The report is called in and they respond.
You might, if you pay very close attention, notice some other
procedural errors in American television shows.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> BTW, I haven't looked it up but I think in Roe v. Wade there was
> another plaintiff Doe, but she got dropped somewhere in the appeals
> process, I suppose because the issue on appeal didn't apply to her.
There were two cases that were decided at the same time. I'm not
sure, but I suspect that the plaintifs' names were chosen because it
was expected that they would (or at least might) be heard together by
the Supreme Court. The plaintiff in Roe v. Wade, filed in Texas, was
"Jane Roe". The plaintiff in Doe v. Bolton, filed in George, was
"Mary Doe". The Supreme Court decided both of them on January 22,
1973.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The purpose of writing is to inflate
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and inhibit clarity. With a little
|practice, writing can be an
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog!
(650)857-7572 | Calvin
John Dean
And a kiss is still is a kiss, a sigh is still a sigh, a rose is a rose is a
Roe's
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
Was it a big six-wheeler, scarlet painted, London transport, diesel engine,
ninety-seven horsepower omnibus?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Evan Kirshenbaum
> British usage (before satellite TV) had no similar standard name to
> use for unidentified corpses etc. The world famous British
> precedent of this type was Thomas Atkins for a soldier (tommy),
> apparently used before the First World War to show semiliterate
> volunteers how to complete army enlistment documents.
Perhaps considerably before the First World War. I see
Further that the account between the Soldier and the Crown may be
clearly settled, and the state of it at all times within his own
knowledge, the Articles of War direct that every Soldier shall be
provided with a Book (familiarly known to the Service as 'Tommy
Atkins') to show his age, date of enlistment, and actual state of
his accounts; and every Commanding officer is bound to see that
the same is in the Soldier's possession, and properly attended to
each month. This system was introduced by the War Office
Regulations of the 25th November, 1829, during the time that Lord
Hardinge was the Secretary at War.
Charles M. Clode, _The Military Forces of the Crown:
Their Administration and Government_, 1869.
"Tommy Atkins", described as a soldier's "pocket-ledger", shows up in
1859.
I'd guess that the most likely explanation for such a book being
called a "Tommy Atkins" would be that that name was used as an
example in it.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This case--and I must be careful
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not to fall into Spooner's trap
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |here--concerns a group of warring
|bankers.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Snidely
[...]
> I don't know how universal police codes are in the US, but a "10-54"
> is a "possible dead body". All bodies are only "possibly dead" as far
> as the discovering police officer is concerned. He or she is not
> qualified to pronounce the discovery to no longer among the living.
They apparently vary widely even between neighboring juisdictions, and
are banned in multi-agency events. Consult ICS-700 at the FEMA site.
/dps "No, I did *not* mean the donuts are missing!"
Snidely
[...]
>
> I'd guess that the most likely explanation for such a book being
> called a "Tommy Atkins" would be that that name was used as an
> example in it.
Given the story generally offered about Bobbies, and such like things-
most-British, most likely it had to do with some Important Person who
was Instrumental in Promulgating the Practice. Your quote suggests
that the name was already wide-spread by 1859; perhaps Lord Hardinge's
secretary was involved.
/dps'
Snidely
Nothing to see here:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hardinge%2C_1st_Viscount_Hardinge>
/dps
Snidely
to be any likely candidate-for-the-peerage to blame it on.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Atkins>
/dps
LFS
Hold very tight, please....
mm
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:29:48 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
><d.phillips...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>>British usage (before satellite TV) had no similar
>>standard name to use for unidentified corpses etc.
>
>I don't know how universal police codes are in the US, but a "10-54"
One tv "news" story clained they weren't even universal in the US and
that's why some police had trouble learning a new set of codes if they
moved somewhere, and that's why a few departments were changing to
plain English. I thought that police liked the codes when a suspect
might hear because they didn't want to tell him what they suspected
him of, but the story made no reference to this if I heard correctly.
Hospitals have codes too, btw. Mr. Blue in room 224 means they need
the oxygen etc. I knew a couple of others once.
>is a "possible dead body". All bodies are only "possibly dead" as far
>as the discovering police officer is concerned. He or she is not
>qualified to pronounce the discovery to no longer among the living.
John Dean
> "Don Phillipson" <d.phillips...@ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> British usage (before satellite TV) had no similar standard name to
>> use for unidentified corpses etc. The world famous British
>> precedent of this type was Thomas Atkins for a soldier (tommy),
>> apparently used before the First World War to show semiliterate
>> volunteers how to complete army enlistment documents.
>
> Perhaps considerably before the First World War.
Mos def. Brother Kipling was using it at least as early as 1892
http://www.web-books.com/classics/poetry/anthology/Kipling/Tommy.htm
"For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!"
>
> "Tommy Atkins", described as a soldier's "pocket-ledger", shows up in
> 1859.
>
> I'd guess that the most likely explanation for such a book being
> called a "Tommy Atkins" would be that that name was used as an
> example in it.
OED says 1815:
"1815 (Aug. 31) War Office, Collection of Orders, Regulations, etc. 75 (Form
of a Soldier's Book in the Cavalry when filled up). Description, Service,
&c. of Thomas Atkins, Private, No. 6 Troop, 6th Regt. of Dragoons."
I assume they've seen a copy of same, given what a hard time they give poor
little Vicky Coren when she doesn't turn up with full chapter and verse.
Shortened to 'Tommy' it was even used by the Germans in WW2 [1] to refer to
our lot (not just the Army). And it was in use as 'Tom' in the Paras in the
80s. May still be.
[1] Archetypally and stereotypically "For you ze war is over, Tommy" and
"Hier kommen die Tommies"
--
John Dean
Oxford
Nick Atty
>henri wrote:
>
>> On 30 Sep, 08:28, "Wilstrup" <n...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> > In the USA the names John Doe or Jane Doe is an "acronym" for
>> > a unknown corpse - but what are the similar words in British
>> > English- if any?
>>
>> The usual British equivalent is Joe Bloggs, is it not?
>
>I think Joe Bloggs corresponds to John Q. Public, but I'm not
>confident of that. We may need a UK attorney to clear this up. I'm
>crossposting to AUE in search of enlightment.
[I don't seem to have the original here - perhaps it's come from a
killed thread]
That it's Mr Bloggs I have no qualms with. But it's not usually Joe we
talk about, more his brother Fred.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk
(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon
Mike M
>
> Shortened to 'Tommy' it was even used by the Germans in WW2 [1] to refer to
> our lot (not just the Army).
>
> [1] Archetypally and stereotypically "For you ze war is over, Tommy" and
> "Hier kommen die Tommies"
>
What about its counterpart, "Jerry"? I assume that it was originally
"Gerry" (from GERman), but the "J" spelling seems to have become
standard. Seemed only to be used by the British, with the Americans
favouring "Krauts" (from sauerkraut, presumably).
Mike M
Archie Valparaiso
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>Archie Valparaiso wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:26:52 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
>> <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>[...] where, pray, were you during the SDC?)
>>
>>
>> I saw that Wor Vin was playing a blinder so I shuffled off to save my
>> pride and hoped nobody would notice. It didn't work, evidently.
>>
>> Actually, I've been busy exploring the wild and wacky -- and largely
>> deserted, actually -- world (=EstE, weh-ood) that is Second Life. Oh,
>> the tales I could tell....
>>
>
>Why do they let you choose your first name but not your second? I didn't
>like any of those on offer so never got any further with registering.
Ah, if I told you, I'd have to grief you.
--
Archie Valparaiso
K. Edgcombe
LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>John Dean wrote:
>>
>> Was it a big six-wheeler, scarlet painted, London transport, diesel engine,
>> ninety-seven horsepower omnibus?
>
>Hold very tight, please....
>
Ting, ting.
Katy
Bob Cunningham
John Dean
Uh huh to both.
Strangely, OED's earliest cite for 'Jerry' is 1919 despite some later cites
suggesting that the term *was* used in WW1. I have a copy of "Over the Top"
by Guy Empey, an American who joined the British Army after the sinking of
the Lusitania and published a memoir in early 1917. Copy at Gutenberg:
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/ovtop10.txt
No mention of Jerry - 'Fritz' is the term du jour. And OED has 'Fritz'
predating WW2 by some time.
Empey subsequently went into movies:
http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0256639/
Surprising that no-one has thought to remake his story.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Snidely
[...]
> OED says 1815:
>
> "1815 (Aug. 31) War Office, Collection of Orders, Regulations, etc. 75 (Form
> of a Soldier's Book in the Cavalry when filled up). Description, Service,
> &c. of Thomas Atkins, Private, No. 6 Troop, 6th Regt. of Dragoons."
>
> I assume they've seen a copy of same, given what a hard time they give poor
> little Vicky Coren when she doesn't turn up with full chapter and verse.
Hmmm, it would be interesting to put Wikipedia's 1743 letter in the
same display case. [see prioro posting]
/dps
Mark Brader
> > We don't use such pseudonyms in England now - an anonymous party is
> > identified by a letter, which is why the law reports of the Family
> > Division are full of cases called "A v. A" and "in re B". And an
> > unidentified corpse is just an unidentified corpse.
> And a kiss is still is a kiss, a sigh is still a sigh, a rose is
> a rose is a Roe's
The fun, the mental things apply... as Stein goes by.
--
Mark Brader "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you
Toronto do say can and will be misquoted and used against
m...@vex.net you in a future post." -- Tanja Cooper, misquoted
John Varela
(in article <1191576390.9...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>):
"Jerry can" is common American English. Did the Americans get the name from
the British, or was it invented here?
--
John Varela
Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email.
Odysseus
Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
You must have a different version than the rest of us. Bootleg?
--
Odysseus
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:15:09 GMT:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_can> implies that the name was of
British origin.
--
Nick Spalding
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
OED says:
jerrican, jerrycan
A five-gallon (usu. metal) container for petrol, water, etc., of a
type first used in Germany and later adopted by the Allied forces in
the war of 1939-45.
1943 Hutch'nson's Pict. Hist. War 17 Feb.-11 May 258 Mules carrying
'jerricans’ to British troops... Jerricans are a special type of
petrol container for transporting water.
1944 Times 25 Nov. 8/3 The Germans had a very efficient five-gallon
petrol can. The Eighth Army captured some of the cans. They were
sent back to England, and the British started manufacturing them.
They were called jerricans.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Bob Cunningham
Katy's remark sounded like a takeoff on
Oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang.
Since she could have been changing the "ting tang" to "ting
ting"--although I'm reasonably certain she wasn't even
thinking of the song, I thought it would be amusing to
change the "bing bang" to "bing bing".
It's sorta like somebody wrote "If you new Susie" and I
wrote "like I no Susie?" Or "If you gnu Susie", "like I gno
Susie?"
--
Bob Cunningham, Southern California, USofA
If ya gotta explain it, it ain't funny.
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
You can get more water in a Jerrican that you can in a Pelican.
R H Draney
>
>Katy's remark sounded like a takeoff on
>
> Oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang.
>
>Since she could have been changing the "ting tang" to "ting
>ting"--although I'm reasonably certain she wasn't even
>thinking of the song, I thought it would be amusing to
>change the "bing bang" to "bing bing".
Several years ago I heard a Chinese cover of this song..."ting tang" was left
intact, but everything that followed was changed to other lyrics...I just wish
my only recording of it weren't so horribly clipped and truncated....
>It's sorta like somebody wrote "If you new Susie" and I
>wrote "like I no Susie?" Or "If you gnu Susie", "like I gno
>Susie?"
Precious and few are the moments we toucans share....r
--
Lindsay Lohan died for your sins.
Prai Jei
<odysseus1479-at-2F...@news.telus.net>:
That's the version that his friend the witch-doctor taught him.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Robert Bannister
I have dim memories of "jerry" also being used for "chamberpot" when I
was little.
--
Rob Bannister
Frances Kemmish
>
> I have dim memories of "jerry" also being used for "chamberpot" when I
> was little.
>
Me too.
I remember reading (in The Times, I think) an article in which a woman
describes spotting a piece of furniture in Harrods which she says she
would have called a "jerry cupboard". Curious to see what term Harrods
uses for it she looked at the label. It said "jerry cupboard".
The only place I can recall seeing a jerry cupboard was in a cabin on
the ferry to the Hook of Holland when I was very young.
Fran
Peter Duncanson
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>I have dim memories of "jerry" also being used for "chamberpot" when I
>was little.
I think there's one under a bed in my house here.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=jerry&searchmode=none
Jerry
World War I British Army slang for "German," 1919, probably an
alteration of German, but also said to be from the shape of the Ger.
helmet, which was like a jerry, British slang for "chamber pot"
(1827), probably an abbreviation of jeroboam. Hence jerry-can
"5-gallon metal container" (1943), a type first used by German
troops in World War II, later adopted by the Allies.
OED agrees that the chamber pot "jerry" is probably an abbreviation of
jeroboam.
John Dean
> Bob Cunningham filted:
>>
>
>> It's sorta like somebody wrote "If you new Susie" and I
>> wrote "like I no Susie?" Or "If you gnu Susie", "like I gno
>> Susie?"
>
> Precious and few are the moments we toucans share....r
"Toucans in their nests agree/Guinness is good for you/Try some today and
see/What one or toucan do."
Now connect that with Gaudy Night
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
>
> I have dim memories of "jerry" also being used for "chamberpot" when I
> was little.
Ho yus
Also 'gazunda'
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
> Don Aitken:
>>> We don't use such pseudonyms in England now - an anonymous party is
>>> identified by a letter, which is why the law reports of the Family
>>> Division are full of cases called "A v. A" and "in re B". And an
>>> unidentified corpse is just an unidentified corpse.
>
> John Dean:
>> And a kiss is still is a kiss, a sigh is still a sigh, a rose is
>> a rose is a Roe's
>
> The fun, the mental things apply... as Stein goes by.
UMIST remembers this ...
--
John Dean
Oxford
Oleg Lego
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> I have dim memories of "jerry" also being used for "chamberpot" when I
>> was little.
>
>Ho yus
>Also 'gazunda'
Thundermug.
Nick Spalding
on Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:58:06 +0100:
Same author?
--
Nick Spalding
John Varela
(in article <eihjg3thm7gotho24...@4ax.com>):
ThunderJug.
John Dean
There ya go!
--
John Dean
Oxford
CDB
Vera incessu patuit dean.
John Dean
You betcha sweet patuitee.
Would you believe some of my would be admirers drop the final 'n'?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Bob Cunningham
It does sound sorta Wimsycal.
CDB
But few, surely, have the cheek to call you Vera?
Snidely
> Wikipedia claims it goes back to at least 1743, but there doesn't seem
> to be any likely candidate-for-the-peerage to blame it on.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Atkins>
Demmit! Why didn't the 7th son of the 7th Earl of the 7th County get
credit for all this?