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Capitalization of nobiliary particles in surnames
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Opinicus
Nov 12, 2012, 7:14:22 AM11/12/12
to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobiliary_particle
Consider:
1) Michele de Gennaro is a graphic designer at CERN.
2) De Gennaro is one of the founders of Les Horribles Cernettes.
3) "De Gennaro" is an often-encountered Italian surname.
I have no problem with those. But what about:
4) The ... Gennaros are coming to dinner this evening.
5) An often-encountered Italian surname is "... Gennaro".
"de" or "De"?
And where is the stylistic authority for this?
--
Bob
http://www.kanyak.com
Don Phillipson
Nov 12, 2012, 8:05:34 AM11/12/12
to
Bob "Opinicus" <gez...@spamcop.net.which.is.not.invalid> wrote in message
news:75p1a8hf4t0uo9soq...@4ax.com...
exempt from all and any rules for either pronunciation or
spelling. Thus there can be no "stylistic authority."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:75p1a8hf4t0uo9soq...@4ax.com...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobiliary_particle
>
> Consider:
> 1) Michele de Gennaro is a graphic designer at CERN.
> 2) De Gennaro is one of the founders of Les Horribles Cernettes.
> . . .
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobiliary_particle
>
> Consider:
> 1) Michele de Gennaro is a graphic designer at CERN.
> 2) De Gennaro is one of the founders of Les Horribles Cernettes.
> "de" or "De"?
> And where is the stylistic authority for this?
The English-language convention is that personal names are
> And where is the stylistic authority for this?
exempt from all and any rules for either pronunciation or
spelling. Thus there can be no "stylistic authority."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Ian Jackson
Nov 12, 2012, 10:09:27 AM11/12/12
to
In message <k7qtso$fv8$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Don Phillipson
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes
In the absence of any rules, common sense should prevail.
Various languages use the 'from' or "from the" (or even "the") in part
of the surname ("de", "van", "von" etc). My experience is that it's
usual to retain this. You certainly would get some funny looks if you
started referring the paintings of "Gogh". However, "Goya" seems
perfectly normal (possibly because his full name - Francisco de Goya y
Lucientes - is a bit of a mouthful).
Of course, in some instances, has been melded into the rest of surname,
so you don't have the choice.
--
Ian
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes
Various languages use the 'from' or "from the" (or even "the") in part
of the surname ("de", "van", "von" etc). My experience is that it's
usual to retain this. You certainly would get some funny looks if you
started referring the paintings of "Gogh". However, "Goya" seems
perfectly normal (possibly because his full name - Francisco de Goya y
Lucientes - is a bit of a mouthful).
Of course, in some instances, has been melded into the rest of surname,
so you don't have the choice.
--
Ian
John Varela
Nov 12, 2012, 12:45:28 PM11/12/12
to
can explain this one for me. My cousin's other grandmother had the
maiden name Vonderhaar. He thinks she was of Dutch descent, and the
"haar" certainly looks Dutch, but that "Von" doesn't seem to fit.
Is Von sometimes used in the Netherlands?
--
John Varela
Don Phillipson
Nov 12, 2012, 1:19:26 PM11/12/12
to
"John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-lzrpYGUc39ps@localhost...
> . . . My cousin's other grandmother had the
i.e. Vondel Street and our au pair (60 years ago) had the
surname Vanderhaar. If JV's queried name ever moved to another
country, it seems reasonably likely that at least one letter of the
name's spelling may have changed.
news:51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-lzrpYGUc39ps@localhost...
> . . . My cousin's other grandmother had the
> maiden name Vonderhaar. He thinks she was of Dutch descent, and the
> "haar" certainly looks Dutch, but that "Von" doesn't seem to fit.
>
> Is Von sometimes used in the Netherlands?
The street on which my Dutch brother in law lives is Vondellaan
> "haar" certainly looks Dutch, but that "Von" doesn't seem to fit.
>
> Is Von sometimes used in the Netherlands?
i.e. Vondel Street and our au pair (60 years ago) had the
surname Vanderhaar. If JV's queried name ever moved to another
country, it seems reasonably likely that at least one letter of the
name's spelling may have changed.
Eric Walker
Nov 12, 2012, 7:16:28 PM11/12/12
to
appears; newspapers, magazines, books, all operate under the authority of
some formal style guide (of which there are really only a few).
If the use is not in a context for which a style guide is mandated (such
as an email), the writer in doubt can refer to his or her preferred style
guide. A common one is The Chicago Manual of Style.
The Chicago 14th Edition has entries for "English Names with Particles"
and also for Non-English Names, under which is the subheading "Italian,
Portugese, German, and Dutch Names". Under that, we read:
Particles . . . are lower-cased and are usually dropped when the
surname is used alone in the original language. In English, writers
have shown little consistency in their treatment of such names. The
frequent older practice was to retain and capitalize the particle when
the surname was used alone. Consequently, for some names the form
with the particle is the only familiar one and must necessarily be
used. For other names the native practice should be followed.
Examples given there include:
Giovanni da Verrazano; Verrazano
Lucia della Robbia; in English contexts, della Robbia
The text at "English Names With Particles" reads in part:
For names of this type borne by people in English-speaking countries,
practice with regard to capitalizing the particle varies widely, and
competent authority should be consulted in doubtful cases. Generally,
the surname retains the particle when used alone.
Not, all in all, definitive, but helpful.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Opinicus
Nov 12, 2012, 11:54:49 PM11/12/12
to
On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:16:28 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker
<em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
> The stylistic authority is whatever it is for the place in which the name
> appears; newspapers, magazines, books, all operate under the authority of
> some formal style guide (of which there are really only a few).
> If the use is not in a context for which a style guide is mandated (such
> as an email), the writer in doubt can refer to his or her preferred style
> guide. A common one is The Chicago Manual of Style.
> The Chicago 14th Edition has entries for "English Names with Particles"
> and also for Non-English Names, under which is the subheading "Italian,
> Portugese, German, and Dutch Names". Under that, we read:
> Particles . . . are lower-cased and are usually dropped when the
> surname is used alone in the original language. In English, writers
> have shown little consistency in their treatment of such names. The
> frequent older practice was to retain and capitalize the particle when
> the surname was used alone. Consequently, for some names the form
> with the particle is the only familiar one and must necessarily be
> used. For other names the native practice should be followed.
8<!
<em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
> The stylistic authority is whatever it is for the place in which the name
> appears; newspapers, magazines, books, all operate under the authority of
> some formal style guide (of which there are really only a few).
> If the use is not in a context for which a style guide is mandated (such
> as an email), the writer in doubt can refer to his or her preferred style
> guide. A common one is The Chicago Manual of Style.
> The Chicago 14th Edition has entries for "English Names with Particles"
> and also for Non-English Names, under which is the subheading "Italian,
> Portugese, German, and Dutch Names". Under that, we read:
> Particles . . . are lower-cased and are usually dropped when the
> surname is used alone in the original language. In English, writers
> have shown little consistency in their treatment of such names. The
> frequent older practice was to retain and capitalize the particle when
> the surname was used alone. Consequently, for some names the form
> with the particle is the only familiar one and must necessarily be
> used. For other names the native practice should be followed.
> For names of this type borne by people in English-speaking countries,
> practice with regard to capitalizing the particle varies widely, and
> competent authority should be consulted in doubtful cases. Generally,
> the surname retains the particle when used alone.
> Not, all in all, definitive, but helpful.
correctly then Chicago recommends:
4) The de Gennaros are coming to dinner this evening.
5) An often-encountered Italian surname is "de Gennaro".
The second one looks OK to me but the first is unsettling. Since I'm
the one who has to make the decision on this particular project I
think I'll go with:
1) Michele de Gennaro is a graphic designer at CERN.
2) De Gennaro is one of the founders of Les Horribles Cernettes.
3) "De Gennaro" is an often-encountered Italian surname.
5) An often-encountered Italian surname is "de Gennaro".
I'm still not entirely happy with (4) however and seeing them
juxtaposed like that I've begun to wonder about (3).
--
Bob
http://www.kanyak.com
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