Novus Ordo Seclorum`
meirman
Can someone tell me, tonight if possible, what Novus Ordo Seclorum
means?
Specifically seclorum, and what the nominative singular is. It's not
in my Cassell's pocket Latin-English dictionary. And web sites using
the term haven't been that much help.
M-W.com translates the phrase as a whole as " a new cycle of the ages"
I think they are inserting "cycle" because they think that is the
right meaning idiomatically, but a) I'm not sure it is. b) I want a
literal meaning. I don't think there is a connotation of cycle in the
Latin, even in the phrase as a whole.
I recall from a long time ago: "a new order of things" . But I can't
find support for "things". There is only one meaning for thing in the
Latin dictionary and that is, of course, res.
Thanks a lot,
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
Mark Brader
writes:
> Can someone tell me, tonight if possible, what Novus Ordo Seclorum
> means?
>
> Specifically seclorum, and what the nominative singular is. It's not
> in my Cassell's pocket Latin-English dictionary. ...
My Cassell's is bigger than yours :-), and it's not in it either --
spelled that way. But it occurred to me that the -cl- might be a
Latin contraction of -cul-, and I found it that way. But even this
is a variant.
The primary nominative singular form is "saeculum". The dictionary
gives "saeclum" as a poetic syncopated spelling, refers "seculum" back
to "saeculum" without comment [perhaps we're supposed to know that
classical Latin changes -ae- to -e- in American spelling :-)], and,
as I say, does not give "seclum" at all.
The word is defined essentially as follows:
# (1) The period of one human generation (about 33 1/3 years),
# a generation. Transferred: (A) The people composing a
# generation. Hence plural, successive generations.
# (B) The spirit of the age, the times.
#
# (2) In a wider sense, the longest duration of a man's life,
# a hundred years, a century. Transferred: An indefinitely
# long time, an age.
Games referred to by the corresponding adjective "saecularis" took
place every hundred years, it says. You can see how the French word
for century, sie`cle (siècle in 8859-1), came about. According to
the RHU1, our primary meaning of "secular" indicating that something
has no connection with religion arises because generations and ages
are concerns of this world while religion deals with the eternal.
> M-W.com translates the phrase as a whole as "a new cycle of the ages"
I think "a new order of the ages" is the usual translation, which
clearly fits the original since "ordo" means "order". This includes
both literal meanings such as a line or row and figurative meanings
such as in the translation.
> I think they are inserting "cycle" because they think that is the
> right meaning idiomatically, but a) I'm not sure it is. b) I want a
> literal meaning. I don't think there is a connotation of cycle in the
> Latin, even in the phrase as a whole.
As you see from the above, there actually is such a connotation, but
it's within "seclum" itself; their version really just translates
"novum seclum" with "ordo" omitted altogether.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | In the affairs of this world men are saved,
m...@vex.net | not by faith, but by the want of it. --Franklin
My text in this article is in the public domain.
meirman
(Mark Brader) posted:
>Hmm, I didn't think this was alt.usage.latin. But anwyay, "Meirman"
>writes:
>
>> Can someone tell me, tonight if possible, what Novus Ordo Seclorum
>> means?
>>
>> Specifically seclorum, and what the nominative singular is. It's not
>> in my Cassell's pocket Latin-English dictionary. ...
>
>My Cassell's is bigger than yours :-), and it's not in it either --
>spelled that way. But it occurred to me that the -cl- might be a
>Latin contraction of -cul-, and I found it that way. But even this
>is a variant.
>
>The primary nominative singular form is "saeculum". The dictionary
>gives "saeclum" as a poetic syncopated spelling, refers "seculum" back
>to "saeculum" without comment [perhaps we're supposed to know that
Hmmm. Maybe I should have figured out the sae. I remember the ae and
I probably knew words that had cognates in English with e. Maybe I'll
remember next time. Thanks.
>classical Latin changes -ae- to -e- in American spelling :-)], and,
>as I say, does not give "seclum" at all.
>
>The word is defined essentially as follows:
>
># (1) The period of one human generation (about 33 1/3 years),
That "settles" another topic in AEU, how long a generation is.
># a generation. Transferred: (A) The people composing a
># generation. Hence plural, successive generations.
># (B) The spirit of the age, the times.
>#
># (2) In a wider sense, the longest duration of a man's life,
># a hundred years, a century. Transferred: An indefinitely
># long time, an age.
>
>Games referred to by the corresponding adjective "saecularis" took
>place every hundred years, it says. You can see how the French word
>for century, sie`cle (siècle in 8859-1), came about. According to
That word was ringing back in my head, but I couldn't put my finger on
it.
>the RHU1, our primary meaning of "secular" indicating that something
>has no connection with religion arises because generations and ages
>are concerns of this world while religion deals with the eternal.
Thanks. This should put the kibosh on the other guys mistaken post.
I knew he was wrong but I couldn't convince him without something in
its place. (May not convince him anyway. You know how the net is!)
The original poster in the other list had made another mistake as
well.
>> M-W.com translates the phrase as a whole as "a new cycle of the ages"
>
>I think "a new order of the ages" is the usual translation, which
>clearly fits the original since "ordo" means "order". This includes
>both literal meanings such as a line or row and figurative meanings
>such as in the translation.
>
>> I think they are inserting "cycle" because they think that is the
>> right meaning idiomatically, but a) I'm not sure it is. b) I want a
>> literal meaning. I don't think there is a connotation of cycle in the
>> Latin, even in the phrase as a whole.
>
>As you see from the above, there actually is such a connotation, but
>it's within "seclum" itself; their version really just translates
>"novum seclum" with "ordo" omitted altogether.
Ah hah. I see.
Yuno Hu
0hnmrukd1ntuf3aa9...@4ax.com, posted this:
>
> Can someone tell me, tonight if possible, what Novus Ordo Seclorum
> means?
It's a feel-good catch phrase of the late Enlightenment. In general it
refers to a "New Order from out of the Ages". The closest modern phrasing
might be the original G. Bush's "New World Order", which was probably
inspired by the Latin phrase.
>
> Specifically seclorum, and what the nominative singular is. It's not
> in my Cassell's pocket Latin-English dictionary. And web sites using
> the term haven't been that much help.
>
>
> M-W.com translates the phrase as a whole as " a new cycle of the ages"
> I think they are inserting "cycle" because they think that is the
> right meaning idiomatically, but a) I'm not sure it is. b) I want a
> literal meaning. I don't think there is a connotation of cycle in the
> Latin, even in the phrase as a whole.
Heh. Well, I'll bet if you asked Cicero or Caesar, they'd say something
like, "I dunno what the hell that crazy phrase is supposed to mean. 'A new
rank from the times'? Who said it? What exactly did they mean by it? I need
to decide whether to join with them or fight against them."
>
> I recall from a long time ago: "a new order of things" . But I can't
> find support for "things". There is only one meaning for thing in the
> Latin dictionary and that is, of course, res.
You can't expect word-for-word correspondences between languages. That's
why there's all them italicized words in the KJV.
Jerry
"Alan Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jiNu9.32714$862....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:0hnmrukd1ntuf3aa9...@4ax.com...
> >
> > Can someone tell me, tonight if possible, what Novus Ordo Seclorum
> > means?
> >
> > Specifically seclorum, and what the nominative singular is.
>
> Gen. pl. seclorum
> Sometimes spelt as seculum, seculorum; saeclum, saeclorum; saeculum,
> saeculorum
>
> My dictionary gives "seculum" as the standard classical form, but from
> church music I'm more accustomed to "saeculum". The ending of the
> Paternoster is "in saecula saeculorum" - for ever and ever, or literally
> "into the ages of the ages".
you've also got the present day derivative, secular, meaning of or relating
to the worldly or temporal secular concerns.
I think secular relating to time is in contrast to spiritual which is
supposed infinite. There is also a second meaning of secular which is 'not
religious'
Alan Jones
> means?
>
> Specifically seclorum, and what the nominative singular is.
Nom. sing. seclum (2nd declension neuter - "an age")
Gen. pl. seclorum
Sometimes spelt as seculum, seculorum; saeclum, saeclorum; saeculum,
saeculorum
My dictionary gives "seculum" as the standard classical form, but from
church music I'm more accustomed to "saeculum". The ending of the
Paternoster is "in saecula saeculorum" - for ever and ever, or literally
"into the ages of the ages".
The e for ae spelling is common in classical and medi[a]eval Latin, not a
specifically US form.
The motto seems to mean "This is a new era".
Alan Jones
Mark Brader
> The primary nominative singular form is "saeculum". The dictionary
> gives "saeclum" as a poetic syncopated spelling, refers "seculum" back
> at all.
As I noted in the earlier post, the meaning of "generation" or "age"
is not dissimilar from English "cycle". But also, in classical
pronunciation, "saeclum" *sounds* like English "cycle"! What's up
with that?
I presume that our "cycle" is derived from the Greek "kuklos" meaning
"circle". Upsilon ("u") in Greek commonly becomes Y in Latin and
English; kappa ("k") may become K but commonly becomes C, in which
case it's usually hard in English, but I think not always. (In
classical Latin pronunciation, all C's are hard.)
But I don't know of a case where Latin AE or E becomes Y in English.
I presume that part of the resemblance of "saeclum" and "cycle" is
just a coincidence; but do "saeclum" and "kuklos" actually have some
common etymology way back when?
--
Mark Brader | "In a case like this, where the idiom is old and its wiring
Toronto | probably a mess, we tamper with nothing. There is always
m...@vex.net | the danger it will blow up in your face." -- Matthew Hart
General Tso
-0400:
>
>Can someone tell me, tonight if possible, what Novus Ordo Seclorum
>means?
>
>Specifically seclorum, and what the nominative singular is. It's not
>in my Cassell's pocket Latin-English dictionary. And web sites using
>the term haven't been that much help.
>
>
>M-W.com translates the phrase as a whole as " a new cycle of the ages"
>I think they are inserting "cycle" because they think that is the
>right meaning idiomatically, but a) I'm not sure it is. b) I want a
>literal meaning. I don't think there is a connotation of cycle in the
>Latin, even in the phrase as a whole.
>
>I recall from a long time ago: "a new order of things" . But I can't
>find support for "things". There is only one meaning for thing in the
>Latin dictionary and that is, of course, res.
>
>Thanks a lot,
>
Some people translate it as "New World Order," but some scholars
dispute translation.
http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/translation.html
John O'Flaherty
>I (Mark Brader) wrote:
>> The primary nominative singular form is "saeculum". The dictionary
>> gives "saeclum" as a poetic syncopated spelling, refers "seculum" back
>> to "saeculum" without comment ... and, as I say, does not give "seclum"
>> at all.
>
>As I noted in the earlier post, the meaning of "generation" or "age"
>is not dissimilar from English "cycle". But also, in classical
>pronunciation, "saeclum" *sounds* like English "cycle"! What's up
>with that?
>
>I presume that our "cycle" is derived from the Greek "kuklos" meaning
>"circle". Upsilon ("u") in Greek commonly becomes Y in Latin and
>English; kappa ("k") may become K but commonly becomes C, in which
>case it's usually hard in English, but I think not always. (In
>classical Latin pronunciation, all C's are hard.)
>
>But I don't know of a case where Latin AE or E becomes Y in English.
>I presume that part of the resemblance of "saeclum" and "cycle" is
>just a coincidence; but do "saeclum" and "kuklos" actually have some
>common etymology way back when?
I don't know about the etymology, but it's interesting that 'secular'
and 'cyclical' are a pair of antonyms in investing or financial
jargon: cyclical means phenomena that repeat, like the business cycle,
and 'secular' means one-time or historical, like the tech bubble.
--
john
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> But I don't know of a case where Latin AE or E becomes Y in English.
> I presume that part of the resemblance of "saeclum" and "cycle" is
> just a coincidence; but do "saeclum" and "kuklos" actually have some
> common etymology way back when?
It's a coincidence, as you say. The Latin word is ultimately connected
with sowing, and the Greek with rings and circles. I don't think you
can swap from s to k that far back; I think the sounds coincide only
as a result of literacy and the chance occurrence that Latin dropped
the letter k, and later generations found *ch* too much like hard
work. (Though "ch" and "k" interchanges are still found in modern
English dialects -- and, I found to my surprise, Arabic ones.)
Mike.
Joe Fineman
> The primary nominative singular form is "saeculum". The dictionary
> gives "saeclum" as a poetic syncopated spelling, refers "seculum"
> back to "saeculum" without comment [perhaps we're supposed to know
> that classical Latin changes -ae- to -e- in American spelling :-)],
> and, as I say, does not give "seclum" at all.
When I was in a student residence at St Andrews University (Scotland)
in 1958-1959, the grace before (or maybe it was after) dinner was the
Gloria Patri, which we sang in unison. The final words,
in saecula saeculorum, amen
came out
in secla seclum, aaamen
Not only was "saecula" syncopated, but "saeculorum" lost yet another
syllable! The need to get that word in twice at the end of a solemn
chant is perhaps the reason for its appearing in syncopated forms.
The reduction of "ae" (& "oe") to plain "e" occurred within Latin, I
think in the late classical period. The full spellings (but not, I
think, the corresponding pronunciations) were restored in scholarly
usage in early modern times and entered English that way. The
pronunciation, still unaffected, underwent the Great Vowel Shift to
what we now think of as "long e". The spelling has since slipped back
to plain e in many common words (you won't see "oeconomic" or
"aeternal" very often these days), and the process has been faster in
the U.S. than in the U.K.
We Americans (like everybody else these days, I think), write "ae" &
"oe" on the rare occasions when were are actually writing classical
Latin -- and, as part of a movement that began around 1900, we even
given them the classical pronunciations (like "I" & "oy",
respectively).
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: We can learn a lot about ourselves by studying the lower :||
||: animals, especially those of our own species. :||