Unkdray

[Anton Shepelev]

Hello, all

While on my work-bound train today, I encountered an
alien-looking word in a Dashiell Hammett nov-
el -- `unkdray'. Once in the office (I have no
smartphone), I consulted all the online Dictionaries
that I use, but in vain. After some casting about, I
found it at last in a wonderful list of words for
`drunk'. They are not, however, "drunk works", as
the page claims, but drunk-words, as the URL speci-
fies:

https://brookstonbeerbulletin.com/drunk-words/

That is good enough in default of a dictionary defi-
nition, but what are its etymology and morphology?
To me, it sounds more like the Black Speech of the
Orcs in Tolkien: Uruk-hai, Unk-dray... How on (Mid-
dle-)Earth did this word come into English?

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

[Adam Funk]

On 2020-09-24, Anton Shepelev wrote:

> Hello, all
>
> While on my work-bound train today, I encountered an
> alien-looking word in a Dashiell Hammett nov-
> el -- `unkdray'. Once in the office (I have no
> smartphone), I consulted all the online Dictionaries
> that I use, but in vain. After some casting about, I
> found it at last in a wonderful list of words for
> `drunk'. They are not, however, "drunk works", as
> the page claims, but drunk-words, as the URL speci-
> fies:
>
> https://brookstonbeerbulletin.com/drunk-words/
>
> That is good enough in default of a dictionary defi-
> nition, but what are its etymology and morphology?
> To me, it sounds more like the Black Speech of the
> Orcs in Tolkien: Uruk-hai, Unk-dray... How on (Mid-
> dle-)Earth did this word come into English?

It's Pig Latin:

Pig Latin is a language game or argot in which English words are
altered, usually by adding a fabricated suffix or by moving the
onset or initial consonant or consonant cluster of a word to the
end of the word and adding a vocalic syllable to create such a
suffix. For example, "Wikipedia" would become "Ikipediaway" (the
"W" is moved from the beginning and has "ay" appended to create a
suffix).

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Latin>


--
The love of money as a possession ... will be recognised for what it
is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal,
semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to
the specialists in mental disease. ---J M Keynes

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <20200924131200.92b0458d9903d95df5f04041@g{oogle}mail.com>,

Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

> Hello, all
>
> While on my work-bound train today, I encountered an
> alien-looking word in a Dashiell Hammett nov-
> el -- `unkdray'. Once in the office (I have no
> smartphone), I consulted all the online Dictionaries
> that I use, but in vain. After some casting about, I
> found it at last in a wonderful list of words for
> `drunk'. They are not, however, "drunk works", as
> the page claims, but drunk-words, as the URL speci-
> fies:
>
> https://brookstonbeerbulletin.com/drunk-words/
>
> That is good enough in default of a dictionary defi-
> nition, but what are its etymology and morphology?
> To me, it sounds more like the Black Speech of the
> Orcs in Tolkien: Uruk-hai, Unk-dray... How on (Mid-
> dle-)Earth did this word come into English?

Pig Latin.

[Anton Shepelev]

Adam Funk:

> It's Pig Latin:
>
> Pig Latin is a language game or argot in which En-
> glish words are altered, usually by adding a fab-

> ricated suffix or by moving the onset or initial
> consonant or consonant cluster of a word to the
> end of the word and adding a vocalic syllable to
> create such a suffix. For example, "Wikipedia"
> would become "Ikipediaway" (the "W" is moved from
> the beginning and has "ay" appended to create a
> suffix).
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Latin>

Ankthay, ouyay, Amaday.

[Peter Moylan]

On 24/09/20 23:17, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Adam Funk:
>
>> It's Pig Latin:
>>
>> Pig Latin is a language game or argot in which En-
>> glish words are altered, usually by adding a fab-
>> ricated suffix or by moving the onset or initial
>> consonant or consonant cluster of a word to the
>> end of the word and adding a vocalic syllable to
>> create such a suffix. For example, "Wikipedia"
>> would become "Ikipediaway" (the "W" is moved from
>> the beginning and has "ay" appended to create a
>> suffix).
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Latin>
>
> Ankthay, ouyay, Amaday.

One of the uses of Pig Latin is in constructing utterances that a native
speaker of English will understand, but will be almost incomprehensible
to non-native speakers.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

[Ken Blake]

Or, most commonly, in my experience, spoken by one parent to the other,
so the children won't understand.


--
Ken

[None]

"Ken Blake" wrote in message news:ht3rvv...@mid.individual.net...

>> One of the uses of Pig Latin is in constructing utterances that a native
>> speaker of English will understand, but will be almost incomprehensible
>> to non-native speakers.

> Or, most commonly, in my experience, spoken by one parent to the other, so
> the children won't understand.

That makes as much sense as speaking German so the Germans won't understand.

[Peter Moylan]

I was once married to a Belgian. The francophone Belgians, as I
understand it, will sometimes speak to their spice in Dutch, so that the
children won't understand. My then wife sometimes did that, ignoring the
fact that I don't speak Dutch. Now that I think of it, her siblings
sometimes did the same. They missed the point that their children
(although not mine) were almost completely bilingual. Or perhaps
trilingual, because English is widely understood in Belgium.

(Ik spreek alleen een of twee worden nederlands.)

Thinking of such, my mind goes back to an argument between an English
couple. One of them says "Pas devant la doméstique" in front of the
French au pair. But I've completely forgotten where I heard that.

[Ken Blake]

<Grin> I know very little French, but I understand that.


--
Ken

[Jack]

...speak to their spice in Dutch...

Is that a hot spouse?

--
Jack

[Jack]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:52:46 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

When I was a child, we learned of a variant that we called "dog
Latin":

Ibit tibook iba libittible bibit ibof tibime tibo gibet yibused tibo
ibit.

--
Jack

[charles]

In article <rkiev6$g35$1...@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>

[Snip]

> Thinking of such, my mind goes back to an argument between an English
> couple. One of them says "Pas devant la doméstique" in front of the
> French au pair. But I've completely forgotten where I heard that.

I had a real, similar experience. During my schooldays. I had a French
exchange boy staying with us and we wentb out to supper with friends who
had a German exchange boy. During the meal the conversation wentbinto
German for a little and then fell quiet. Later I discovered that my boys
said to the German "stupid British, servingb hot potatoes with a salad" -
or words to taht effect. Our hostess carried on the converstion in German.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mack A. Damia]

Silly cunt.

[J. J. Lodder]

The origin is with post-revolution emigrated Russian aristocrats.
They were used to have their quarrels in French,
so the servants wouldn't know.
They would continue with that while in exile in France,
without realising that French was the native language
of their new domestiques,

Jan

[Mack A. Damia]

Forgery.

[Jack]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 10:58:11 -0700, Mack A. Damia

I'm relieved.

--
Jack

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 18:13:04 -0700, Mack A. Damia
<drstee...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Forgery

[occam]

On 24/09/2020 17:45, Peter Moylan wrote:

>
> I was once married to a Belgian. The francophone Belgians, as I
> understand it, will sometimes speak to their spice in Dutch, so that the
> children won't understand. My then wife sometimes did that, ignoring the
> fact that I don't speak Dutch. Now that I think of it, her siblings
> sometimes did the same. They missed the point that their children
> (although not mine) were almost completely bilingual. Or perhaps
> trilingual, because English is widely understood in Belgium.
>

In a strange reversal of the situation, my two children (born and
brought up in Luxembourg) often spoke in the local dialect with each
other, whenever they wanted a private exchange at the dinner table.
Neither I nor my wife speak Luxembourgish (or German). It was an
unusually frustrating experience.

[Mack A. Damia]

Fuck off, fool. You are blind.

[Mack A. Damia]

So is not being able to get it up, fuckface.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:30:46 +0100, Mack A. Damia

Forgery

[Mack A. Damia]

Are you the expert on forgeries?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 08:28:07 -0400, Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com>
wrote:

As spoken by Latino Pigs.

Not a word to Donald Potus-for-life Trump, but said pigs are gathering
in Mexico with the intention of entering the USA with a plan to MAGA -
Make America Grunt Again.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:37:33 +0100, Mack A. Damia

Yes, Steve, and you are a fake man. You are a trouble maker and a
silly sheep.

[Mack A. Damia]

Forgery.

[RH Draney]

On 9/24/2020 3:52 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>
> It's Pig Latin:
>
> Pig Latin is a language game or argot in which English words are
> altered, usually by adding a fabricated suffix or by moving the
> onset or initial consonant or consonant cluster of a word to the
> end of the word and adding a vocalic syllable to create such a
> suffix. For example, "Wikipedia" would become "Ikipediaway" (the
> "W" is moved from the beginning and has "ay" appended to create a
> suffix).

I recently watched a movie from the 1937 in which Jack Haley's character
is having a non-work-related conversation with a fellow employee who
suddenly says "Ixnay, ixnay, the oss-bay"...the closed captioning read
"[speaking foreign language]"....

(One verse of the song "We're In the Money" in "Gold Diggers of 1933" is
sung in Pig Latin by Ginger Rogers...the actress, clowning around in
rehearsal, was overheard by Daryl Zanuck who liked it and asked her to
do it that in the picture)....r

[Mack A. Damia]

If you are going to forge me at least do it properly, you
prize prick.

[Mack A. Damia]

Forgery.

[Mack A. Damia]

Silly cunt.

[J. J. Lodder]

Mack A. Damia <drstee...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 18:13:04 -0700, Mack A. Damia

[-]
> >Silly cunt.
>
> Forgery.

(looking at the headers)
You are right. Half the 'Mack A. Damia' postings -are- forgeries,
posted by somebody else.

This, whoever does it, is very nasty behaviour
that spoils the possibility of having usenet discussions,

Jan

[someone]

I agree. He did it to me first. Very nasty indeed.
Killfile the name, then you won't see me.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

A very transparent strategy. But Mac seems to wallow in it, so I'll do as
you say.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Adam Funk]

("were used to having" is more idiomatic.)

> so the servants wouldn't know.
> They would continue with that while in exile in France,
> without realising that French was the native language
> of their new domestiques,

Why did Russian aristocrats speak French to each other anyway?


--
Specifications are for the weak & timid!
---Klingon Programmer's Guide

[Anton Shepelev]

Mack A. Damia:

> Forgery.

That's right. The forger posts from the netfront.net
server in Hong-Kong, and whoever wishes to get rid
of him is welcome to send complains to an e-mail ad-
dress with the `news' mailbox in the aforementioned
domain.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

[J. J. Lodder]

Thanks.

> > so the servants wouldn't know.
> > They would continue with that while in exile in France,
> > without realising that French was the native language
> > of their new domestiques,
>
> Why did Russian aristocrats speak French to each other anyway?

Not just Russians.
It was the lingua franca of the European aristocracy.

Jan

[Mack A. Damia]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2020 17:49:03 +0300, Anton Shepelev wrote:
>
> Mack A. Damia:
>
> > Forgery.
>
> That's right. The forger posts from the netfront.net
> server in Hong-Kong, and whoever wishes to get rid
> of him is welcome to send complains to an e-mail ad-
> dress with the `news' mailbox in the aforementioned
> domain.

Good advice.
Let me know how you get on.

[Mack A. Damia]

As of 2017, the Russians have publicly claimed that some
of the killings had been covered up. Russia has publicly
accused the US of lying to them about the US campaign
against Syria and Ukraine, specifically about a 2013
attack on Russian journalists with a missile on an
airliner over Sinai that killed 38 Russian citizens.

The US has claimed as well that Russian hackers
compromised the US elections and its email servers.

US President Barack Obama recently said at a press
conference with other world leaders that the Russian
government has tried to influence the US elections. Obama
said that although it may have tried to influence the US
elections, that may not be a violation of international
law. Obama said that it is up to the American people and
their representatives to be better informed about Russian
government's meddling into American elections and the
actions of their leaders. Obama said that anyone involved
should face consequences. At the press conference with
other world leaders, Putin called Obama "a thief and a
murderer" of Russian people, saying that he wanted "to
throw him out of power and say 'Fuck you.' He is a loser
who needs to be kicked out of power."

[Mack A. Damia]

Forged nick.

[Common Sense]

And who is going to believe what you post is genuine? We
all know by now you are a psychopathic forger, so carry
on, troll.

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/09/20 00:49, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Mack A. Damia:
>
>> Forgery.
>
> That's right. The forger posts from the netfront.net server in
> Hong-Kong, and whoever wishes to get rid of him is welcome to send
> complains to an e-mail ad- dress with the `news' mailbox in the
> aforementioned domain.

I try that now and then, but all too often I discover that the
Complaints-To address leads to a nonexisten mail account. For an
example, try it with the Google Groups address for reporting abuse.

My own mail server used to have a feature that it rejected all mail
coming from a domain that did not have a "postmaster" account, as
required by the SMTP standard. I had to scrap that feature, after
discovering far too many non-spamming servers no longer care about the
standards.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

[Opinicus]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 12:53:28 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 26/09/20 00:49, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> > Mack A. Damia:
> >
> >> Forgery.
> >
> > That's right. The forger posts from the netfront.net server in
> > Hong-Kong, and whoever wishes to get rid of him is welcome to send
> > complains to an e-mail ad- dress with the `news' mailbox in the
> > aforementioned domain.
>
> I try that now and then, but all too often I discover that the
> Complaints-To address leads to a nonexisten mail account. For an
> example, try it with the Google Groups address for reporting abuse.

All the forgeries appear to Message-ID to: *@adenine.netfront.net

With Forte Agent and possibly other newsreaders you may filter on the
Message-ID: header (Message-ID: netfront.net). That's what I'm doing.

The messages are also being xposted to AEU and AUE, a problem that
I've not had to deal with for quite a long time. However that does
offer another line of defense. I've removed AUE from the Newsgroups:
header in this reply and suggest that others do the same before even
more Bizzaros are reminded of AEU's existence.

--
Bob
Sidera errantia quibus procella tenebrarum in aeternum servata est

[Snidely]

Peter Moylan explained on 9/25/2020 :

They probably do care about being automatically filed as spam by GMail,
so they should have the DKMS entry in their DNS (A-record, IIRC).

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

[Anton Shepelev]

Peter Moylan:

> > That's right. The forger posts from the netfront.net
> > server in Hong-Kong, and whoever wishes to get rid of

> > him is welcome to send complains to an [the!] e-mail
> > address with the `news' mailbox in the aforementioned

> > domain.
>
> I try that now and then, but all too often I discover that
> the Complaints-To address leads to a nonexisten mail
> account. For an example, try it with the Google Groups
> address for reporting abuse.

In the case of netfront.net, that is an existing e-mail
address, published at their existing web site:
https://www5.netfront.net . Forthemore, the administrator of
netfront.net is aware of the complaints:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/talk.politics.china/dRBEnGIyL0A

I sent my complaint on the 25th of September and have not
seen any more forged posts coming from netfront.net. He has
now moved to another anonymous NNTP server, let us see for
how long.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

[Anton Shepelev]

someone:

> I agree. He did it to me first. Very nasty indeed.
> Killfile the name, then you won't see me.

Killfile the anonymous NNTP server the git uses. First it
was netfront.net, now it is aioe.org. Do take the time to
send complaints (it only takes a minute). It is impossible,
or much harder, to forge an article using a server that
requires a working e-mail address for registration.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post hoc, propter hoc?

Jan

[Anton Shepelev]

Peter Moylan:

> I try that now and then, but all too often I discover that
> the Complaints-To address leads to a nonexisten mail
> account. For an example, try it with the Google Groups
> address for reporting abuse.

May be. Have you tried reporing abuse through the GG
interface? --

https://support.google.com/groups/answer/81275?hl=en

--
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[Anton Shepelev]

I wrote:

> I sent my complaint on the 25th of September and have not
> seen any more forged posts coming from netfront.net. He
> has now moved to another anonymous NNTP server, let us see
> for how long.

For the benefit of these newsgroups and of Usenet in
general, I hereby inform all concerned that, as of
2020-09-26, 20:50 +0200, the said other anonymous NNTP-
sever, AIOE, has blocked the forger in response to my
complaint.

[Steve]

You are wasting your time. It's an open server. They
might block my IP, but I have several VPNs.

[Steve]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:26:41 +0300, Anton Shepelev wrote:
>
> someone:
>
> > I agree. He did it to me first. Very nasty indeed.
> > Killfile the name, then you won't see me.
>
> Killfile the anonymous NNTP server the git uses. First it
> was netfront.net, now it is aioe.org.

Seriously, you expect everyone to block aioe?
Good luck with that.

[Steve]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:26:41 +0300, Anton Shepelev wrote:
>

> someone:
>
> > I agree. He did it to me first. Very nasty indeed.
> > Killfile the name, then you won't see me.
>
> Killfile the anonymous NNTP server the git uses. First it
> was netfront.net, now it is aioe.org.

Seriously, you expect everyone to block aioe?
Good luck with that.

[Steve]

Duplicate post. Server hiccup.

[Anton Shepelev]

J. J. Lodder to Anton Shepelev:

> > I sent my complaint on the 25th of September and
> > have not seen any more forged posts coming from

> > netfront.net. He has now moved to another anony-

> > mous NNTP server, let us see for how long.
>
> Post hoc, propter hoc?

I claim the laurels in either case, and will rest
upon them unless evidence of the contrary tran-
spires.

Another, rather exotic, protection against forgery
is formatting one's posts with an advanced text-pro-
cessing facility, as I do, with justification, hy-
phenation, and other major achievements at the
bleeding-edge of late 1970's technoloby. Since the
forger is too lazy to recreate the effect by hand,
too stupid to use GNU Troff, and unable to run MS
Word 5.0 for MS-DOS or the unique VDE text editor
for DOS 2.0 and up, you shall be safe.

[Sam Plusnet]

You pour bile over a blameless newsgroup - yet apologise for a duplicate
post.
Have you thought of re-examining your system of values?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Steve]

It was an explanation, not an apology for that.

> Have you thought of re-examining your system of values?

You are right. This is going nowhere, so for my part I'm
stopping it here. I'm sorry for the last two days of
disruption, really I am. Bear in mind though that MACK
has been doing the same thing, only much worse for years
in other groups.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 02:25:11 +0100, Steve <lamma...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Same thing? Other groups? Kindly elucidate.

I have posted brekkie recipes to the 2eggs site for many years. If
Ben Newsam and a few others drop in and cause trouble, THEY are the
trolls - but that has happened only infrequently over the years.

As I told Sam, I have been in alt.usage.english for over ten years.
Have I disrupted THIS group? Have I caused the kind of trouble in
here that you ascribe to me in the 2eggs group?

Sir, you have been listening to lies and fairy tales. I have
feelings, too. Maybe that was a huge part of the problem.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Which groups are those and are they still worth reading?
fighting fire with fire just gets you a bigger fire.

[Steve]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:24:04 -0000 (UTC), Kerr-Mudd,John

You know one of them. If you need to know more check him
out on google groups. And no, they aren't worth reading.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:24:04 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"

Are you a man of good faith, a man with honor and integrity? Or are
you merely a troll?

Here is a list of other groups that I occasionally post messages to.
Search to your heart's content. Let us all know if and when you find
something.

alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe

rec.pets.cats.health+behav

alt.fan.don-imus

rec.music.beatles

rec.arts.movies.past-films

alt.cats

[Anton Shepelev]

Kerr-Mudd,John:

> Which groups are those and are they still worth reading?
> fighting fire with fire just gets you a bigger fire.

Except in fighting real forest fires, where it is one of the major
strategies, beautifully descrbied by Vladimir Chivilikhin in his
novel "Elki-Palki", which I cannot translate any better than "What
the hell?" When the two fires meet, they starve each other of fuel
and oxygen and die.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

[J. J. Lodder]

Anton Shepelev <anto...@gmail.com> wrote:

> J. J. Lodder to Anton Shepelev:
>
> > > I sent my complaint on the 25th of September and
> > > have not seen any more forged posts coming from
> > > netfront.net. He has now moved to another anony-
> > > mous NNTP server, let us see for how long.
> >
> > Post hoc, propter hoc?
>
> I claim the laurels in either case, and will rest
> upon them unless evidence of the contrary tran-
> spires.
>
> Another, rather exotic, protection against forgery
> is formatting one's posts with an advanced text-pro-
> cessing facility, as I do, with justification, hy-
> phenation, and other major achievements at the
> bleeding-edge of late 1970's technoloby. Since the
> forger is too lazy to recreate the effect by hand,
> too stupid to use GNU Troff, and unable to run MS
> Word 5.0 for MS-DOS or the unique VDE text editor
> for DOS 2.0 and up, you shall be safe.

I'm most impressed by your bleeding-edge of late 1970's technoloby.

Based on fundamental research by The Rolling Stones, I guess?

Jan

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:41:16 -0500, Jack <quia...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Latin>
>
> When I was a child, we learned of a variant that we called "dog
> Latin":
>
> Ibit tibook iba libittible bibit ibof tibime tibo gibet yibused tibo
> ibit.

My mother once told me that the pig latin spoken in her grade school
added "lf" to the middles of words. She was still quite fluent,
alfand ilfit sowlfounded quilfight mylfisterious.

It's much harder to write than to speak.

--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.

[Anton Shepelev]

J. J. Lodder to Anton Shepelev:

> I'm most impressed by your bleeding-edge of late
> 1970's technoloby. Based on fundamental research
> by The Rolling Stones, I guess?

Ain't they too old for that? They were at their
best when they began -- in early 1960's.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

[Chrysi Cat]

On 9/24/2020 12:17 PM, occam wrote:

> On 24/09/2020 17:45, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>
>> I was once married to a Belgian. The francophone Belgians, as I
>> understand it, will sometimes speak to their spice in Dutch, so that the
>> children won't understand. My then wife sometimes did that, ignoring the
>> fact that I don't speak Dutch. Now that I think of it, her siblings
>> sometimes did the same. They missed the point that their children
>> (although not mine) were almost completely bilingual. Or perhaps
>> trilingual, because English is widely understood in Belgium.
>>
>
>

> In a strange reversal of the situation, my two children (born and
> brought up in Luxembourg) often spoke in the local dialect with each
> other, whenever they wanted a private exchange at the dinner table.
> Neither I nor my wife speak Luxembourgish (or German). It was an
> unusually frustrating experience.
>

In MY experience, had I tried to speak what my parents considered a
foreign language at the table with my kid sister, I'd likely have earned
a trip to my room without the rest of dinner or even a spanking.

Now this admittedly was in the US, but I sort of wonder why you didn't
enforce this on yours even when you were living in Luxembourg.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

[Lewis]

In message <4zOdH.316403$CM.2...@fx01.iad> Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/24/2020 12:17 PM, occam wrote:
>> On 24/09/2020 17:45, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I was once married to a Belgian. The francophone Belgians, as I
>>> understand it, will sometimes speak to their spice in Dutch, so that the
>>> children won't understand. My then wife sometimes did that, ignoring the
>>> fact that I don't speak Dutch. Now that I think of it, her siblings
>>> sometimes did the same. They missed the point that their children
>>> (although not mine) were almost completely bilingual. Or perhaps
>>> trilingual, because English is widely understood in Belgium.
>>>
>>
>>
>> In a strange reversal of the situation, my two children (born and
>> brought up in Luxembourg) often spoke in the local dialect with each
>> other, whenever they wanted a private exchange at the dinner table.
>> Neither I nor my wife speak Luxembourgish (or German). It was an
>> unusually frustrating experience.
>>

> In MY experience, had I tried to speak what my parents considered a
> foreign language at the table with my kid sister, I'd likely have earned
> a trip to my room without the rest of dinner or even a spanking.

> Now this admittedly was in the US, but I sort of wonder why you didn't
> enforce this on yours even when you were living in Luxembourg.

Because Occam's not a asshole.

That would be my guess, at least.

--
"Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is
competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely
honest." - Isaac Asimov

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 07:12:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <4zOdH.316403$CM.2...@fx01.iad> Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/24/2020 12:17 PM, occam wrote:
>>> On 24/09/2020 17:45, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was once married to a Belgian. The francophone Belgians, as I
>>>> understand it, will sometimes speak to their spice in Dutch, so that the
>>>> children won't understand. My then wife sometimes did that, ignoring the
>>>> fact that I don't speak Dutch. Now that I think of it, her siblings
>>>> sometimes did the same. They missed the point that their children
>>>> (although not mine) were almost completely bilingual. Or perhaps
>>>> trilingual, because English is widely understood in Belgium.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a strange reversal of the situation, my two children (born and
>>> brought up in Luxembourg) often spoke in the local dialect with each
>>> other, whenever they wanted a private exchange at the dinner table.
>>> Neither I nor my wife speak Luxembourgish (or German). It was an
>>> unusually frustrating experience.
>>>
>
>> In MY experience, had I tried to speak what my parents considered a
>> foreign language at the table with my kid sister, I'd likely have earned
>> a trip to my room without the rest of dinner or even a spanking.
>
>> Now this admittedly was in the US, but I sort of wonder why you didn't
>> enforce this on yours even when you were living in Luxembourg.
>
>Because Occam's not a asshole.

Of course he is.

He just disguises himself as a cunt.

[Chrysi Cat]

On 10/3/2020 9:05 AM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 07:12:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>

<snip the original discussion of kids speaking in foreign languages at
the family table>

>>
>> Because Occam's not a asshole.
>
> Of course he is.
>
> He just disguises himself as a cunt.
>
>> That would be my guess, at least.
>

Holy crap, I checked the header and that's actually you.

So Steve's not the only one whose language heads for the gutter more
often than not?

(I can't remember, have I used any of Carlin's Seven Dirty Words in
here? I USE them in normal conversation on Twitter and Discord, but I
think I've stayed away in a.u.e and a.e.u., unlike the rest of Usenet.)

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 19:29:53 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 10/3/2020 9:05 AM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 07:12:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>
>
>
><snip the original discussion of kids speaking in foreign languages at
>the family table>
>
>>>
>>> Because Occam's not a asshole.
>>
>> Of course he is.
>>
>> He just disguises himself as a cunt.
>>
>>> That would be my guess, at least.
>>
>
>Holy crap, I checked the header and that's actually you.
>
>So Steve's not the only one whose language heads for the gutter more
>often than not?
>
>(I can't remember, have I used any of Carlin's Seven Dirty Words in
>here? I USE them in normal conversation on Twitter and Discord, but I
>think I've stayed away in a.u.e and a.e.u., unlike the rest of Usenet.)

Outside the U.S. and Canada, "cunt" is sometimes used as a slightly
less taboo insult for a stupid or unpleasant person, including men.

I have heard the usage often in UK discussions.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cunt#

[RH Draney]

Of the seven, I think "tits" has lost almost all of the shock value it
may have had when Carlin first compiled the list....r

[Lewis]

The list had nothing to do with shock value, it was words you could not
say on TV, and that was true for a very long time after Carlin first
came up with the list.

In fact, I am not sure if it is allowed on broadcast TV even now, but I
watch so little broadcast TV I cannot be sure. The other six on his list
are definitely still on the bleep list.

By the way, the list was never accurate, there are FAR more words and
phrases that you cannot say on TV. Clit, Poontang, Twat, and several
racist terms are all excluded and will get you fined or have your
license suspended by the FCC. And networks have their won list as well.

NB: By "TV" we are talking about USA broadcast television. None of these
rules apply to cable or streaming services, although most cable carriers
enforces the same anti-free-speech stance as the broadcast networks.
Many of them take the additional step for bleeping god and jesus when
use in a non-religious way.

When I was a kid if someone said goddamned on TV it was god-<bleep> and
not it is <bleep>-damned.

--
Matters in hand. He'd put matters in hand all right. If he closed his
eyes he could see the body tumbling down the steps. Had there
been a hiss of shocked breath, down in the darkness of the hall?
He'd been certain they were alone. Matters in hand! He'd tried to
wash the blood off his hands. If he could wash the blood off, he
told himself, it wouldn't have happened. He'd scrubbed and
scrubbed. Scrubbed till he screamed. --Wyrd Sisters

[Steve]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 19:29:53 -0600, Chrysi Cat wrote:
>
> On 10/3/2020 9:05 AM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 07:12:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> > <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> >
>
>
> <snip the original discussion of kids speaking in foreign languages at
> the family table>
>
> >>
> >> Because Occam's not a asshole.
> >
> > Of course he is.
> >
> > He just disguises himself as a cunt.
> >
> >> That would be my guess, at least.
> >
>
> Holy crap, I checked the header and that's actually you.

An eye opener, eh?
Just wait till he starts forging.

> So Steve's not the only one whose language heads for the gutter more
> often than not?

I was mimicking what M.A.D. does elsewhere.

[Peter Moylan]

When whatshername had the famous wardrobe malfunction on TV, the nipple
piercing shocked me, but otherwise the whole episode was unremarkable.

(When a skin tag was troubling me over the last couple of days, I was
embarrassed at the thought that I would have to lift my breast to let
the doctor see it. Luckily, it broke off before any action was needed.)

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

[RH Draney]

On 10/4/2020 2:01 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <httb71...@mid.individual.net> RH Draney <dado...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Of the seven, I think "tits" has lost almost all of the shock value it
>> may have had when Carlin first compiled the list....r
>
> The list had nothing to do with shock value, it was words you could not
> say on TV, and that was true for a very long time after Carlin first
> came up with the list.
>
> In fact, I am not sure if it is allowed on broadcast TV even now, but I
> watch so little broadcast TV I cannot be sure. The other six on his list
> are definitely still on the bleep list.

I hear "shit" and "piss" all the time on broadcast TV...maybe not on
children's programs, but they're generally allowed as long as they're
not used to excess....

Carlin's original explanation included the idea that some words can be
used in some contexts but not in others: "bitch" was okay if a
dog-breeder said it, and he pointed out that "ass" was permitted if you
were riding one into town on Palm Sunday but you couldn't put anything
up one...and then there was the chiasmus "you can prick your finger, but
you'd better not finger your prick"....

> By the way, the list was never accurate, there are FAR more words and
> phrases that you cannot say on TV. Clit, Poontang, Twat, and several
> racist terms are all excluded and will get you fined or have your
> license suspended by the FCC. And networks have their won list as well.

A few years after the original list of seven, Carlin realized he'd left
out a few, and his first addendum consisted of the words "fart", "turd"
and "twat"...I'm sure that the first two are now as acceptable as "tits"....

> NB: By "TV" we are talking about USA broadcast television. None of these
> rules apply to cable or streaming services, although most cable carriers
> enforces the same anti-free-speech stance as the broadcast networks.
> Many of them take the additional step for bleeping god and jesus when
> use in a non-religious way.

Was listening to an old-style radio show tonight ("That Thing with Rich
Appel") and they had censored the phrase "white boy" in the disco hit by
Wild Cherry by dubbing another part of the music over it....

> When I was a kid if someone said goddamned on TV it was god-<bleep> and
> not it is <bleep>-damned.

Whereas in my childhood it was just the opposite....r

[Peter Moylan]

On 04/10/20 22:04, RH Draney wrote:

> Carlin's original explanation included the idea that some words can
> be used in some contexts but not in others: "bitch" was okay if a
> dog-breeder said it

I once had a summer job at the Post Office. Thanks to rapid promotion, I
ended up being the person who accepted telegrams over the phone. (A much
more pleasant job than riding a bicycle all over town in the summer heat
[1].)

One of my most frequent customers was a dog breeder, and she dictated
many telegrams including the phrase "lady dog". The price of a telegram
in those days depended heavily on the word count - I suppose the same
was true in other countries, too - so I tried to be helpful in pointing
out that there was a way to reduce the word count. But no, she wouldn't
budge.

[1] My initial job, as I recall it, was delivering telegrams. It turned
out that only prosperous people received telegrams, and prosperous
people always lived on the tops of hills. Our town wasn't especially
hilly, but somehow I always ended up having to walk my bike for the last
few hundred yards.

[Peter Moylan]

On 04/10/20 22:04, RH Draney wrote:

Fair enough. In some places "damned" was considered obscene, and in
others "god" was obscene.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Scissor Sisters had some radio play with [you can't say] 'tits on the
radio'. Rather disproving the statement. I guess the live version uses a
different word. hmm maybe not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJbibXckAHA

[Peter Moylan]

Monty Python had a song "I bet you they won't play this song on the
radio". I think it was a track on their "Monty Python's Contractual
Obligation" album. All the taboo words were bleeped out.

[CDB]

On 10/4/2020 5:01 AM, Lewis wrote:
> RH Draney <dado...@cox.net> wrote:

WIWAK, if I said "damn" in RL I looked around reflexively to make sure
there were no adults lurking.

[Anton Shepelev]

Peter Moylan:

> One of my most frequent customers was a dog breeder, and she
> dictated many telegrams including the phrase "lady dog". The
> price of a telegram in those days depended heavily on the word
> count - I suppose the same was true in other countries, too

Correct. The convention in Russian was to omit all prepositions in
hope they would be recovered noun inflections.

The last (and first!) time I ever received a telegram was
about eight years ago, from UPS. They were informing me I had to
pay a 30% customs fee for the Bear Family CD set with Fats Domino's
complete recordings for Imperial, digitised at the original tape
speed, that is without the speed-up Imperial added in order to make
them sound "livelier" and to thwart transcription.

> so I tried to be helpful in pointing out that there was a way to
> reduce the word count. But no, she wouldn't budge.

Thanks for the story.

> [1] My initial job, as I recall it, was delivering telegrams. It
> turned out that only prosperous people received telegrams, and
> prosperous people always lived on the tops of hills. Our town
> wasn't especially hilly, but somehow I always ended up having to
> walk my bike for the last few hundred yards.

Not so in USSR, little though I rembember it. It was customary to
send a telegram as the hearald before a visit to relatives. We
always did whenever we went to our relatives in a village 450 km
away. The death of a relative used to be another occasion for
sending a telegram -- to make sure the receiver can come to the
funeral on time.

[Cheryl]

The only time I ever sent a telegram was when I was a student travelling
in Europe and wanted to let my parents know when I was arriving at the
airport, which was a considerable distance from my home town. I suppose
it must have seemed like a better option - maybe arranging a
long-distance international phone call was both more complicated and
more expensive. And, of course, dependent on someone being home. My
parents at that time didn't have an answering machine, and I was always
bad at working out time zones. I prided myself on my cleverness in
coming up with a very short telegram with abbreviations and the time in
what I though was obviously a time of day written in the 24 hour system.
My mother was puzzled, but fortunately my father figured it out, and I
was met at the airport. No one has ever sent me a telegram, and I don't
even know if telegram offices exist any more.

--
Cheryl

[Lewis]

In message <httohb...@mid.individual.net> RH Draney <dado...@cox.net> wrote:
> On 10/4/2020 2:01 AM, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <httb71...@mid.individual.net> RH Draney <dado...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Of the seven, I think "tits" has lost almost all of the shock value it
>>> may have had when Carlin first compiled the list....r
>>
>> The list had nothing to do with shock value, it was words you could not
>> say on TV, and that was true for a very long time after Carlin first
>> came up with the list.
>>
>> In fact, I am not sure if it is allowed on broadcast TV even now, but I
>> watch so little broadcast TV I cannot be sure. The other six on his list
>> are definitely still on the bleep list.

> I hear "shit" and "piss" all the time on broadcast TV...maybe not on
> children's programs, but they're generally allowed as long as they're
> not used to excess....

On American Broadcast TV? Where? What shows?

I've never heard either. I have heard "pissed-off" but never "piss".

> Carlin's original explanation included the idea that some words can be
> used in some contexts but not in others: "bitch" was okay if a
> dog-breeder said it, and he pointed out that "ass" was permitted if you
> were riding one into town on Palm Sunday but you couldn't put anything
> up one...and then there was the chiasmus "you can prick your finger, but
> you'd better not finger your prick"....

"The pitcher has thrown three balls, but not the pitcher hit him in the
balls."

--
"You've got to dance like nobody's watching." - Kathy Mattea

[Lewis]

In message <20201004194301.c02c...@gmail.com> Anton Shepelev <antof...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not so in USSR, little though I rembember it. It was customary to
> send a telegram as the hearald before a visit to relatives. We
> always did whenever we went to our relatives in a village 450 km
> away. The death of a relative used to be another occasion for
> sending a telegram -- to make sure the receiver can come to the
> funeral on time.

Telegrams in the US were very expensive. I sent one, once. I ended up
not having to pay for it as they could not deliver it, but it was in the
area of $30 in 1984 or so (about $75 now). The telegram consisted of,
IIRC, seven words. At the time, a gallon of milk was $1 and movie
tickets for first run movies were about $3-4.

--
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women

[RH Draney]

On 10/4/2020 1:41 PM, Cheryl wrote:

> The only time I ever sent a telegram was when I was a student travelling
> in Europe and wanted to let my parents know when I was arriving at the
> airport, which was a considerable distance from my home town. I suppose
> it must have seemed like a better option - maybe arranging a
> long-distance international phone call was both more complicated and
> more expensive. And, of course, dependent on someone being home. My
> parents at that time didn't have an answering machine, and I was always
> bad at working out time zones. I prided myself on my cleverness in
> coming up with a very short telegram with abbreviations and the time in
> what I though was obviously a time of day written in the 24 hour system.
> My mother was puzzled, but fortunately my father figured it out, and I
> was met at the airport. No one has ever sent me a telegram, and I don't
> even know if telegram offices exist any more.

How old is this one?

Bruises hurt erased afford erected analysis hurt too infectious dead.

....r

[Mack A. Damia]

In the old days when you would call "person-to-person" on the
telephone, you might ask for yourself and give incidental information
about a re-call that would tip off whomever you were calling. Or the
person you were calling would give coded information that was
pre-planned and only you could understand. This was before Ma Bell
got wise, and blocked each caller from hearing the other one. Needless
to say that the call would not be accepted, and you would not have to
pay for it, but it served its purpose.

[Peter Moylan]

I'm moderately good at cryptic crosswords, but that one had me whooshed.
It's trickier than the famous one-word message "Peccavi".

(Luckily, it turned out to be googlable.)

[Adam Funk]

You might (or might not) be amused by some of Henry Miller's stuff
about his employment at the "Cosmodemonic Telegraph Company".


--
Men, there is no sacrifice greater than someone else's.
---Skipper

[Adam Funk]

IS MOTHER DEAD OR DECEASED


--
I was born, lucky me, in a land that I love.
Though I'm poor, I am free.
When I grow I shall fight; for this land I shall die.
May the sun never set. ---The Kinks

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 18:11:33 -0230, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:

>No one has ever sent me a telegram, and I don't
>even know if telegram offices exist any more.

I have received a few telegrams, but that was in the first part of the
last century!

It seems that there still is a telegram service in the UK. It used to be
operated by BT (British Telecom), the public telegraph and telephone
service.
Telegram services are now provided by a private sector businesses.
There are no longer telegraph offfices for sending telegrams. It is done
online.

One company is TelegramsOnline:
https://www.telegramsonline.co.uk/index1.asp

Within the UK the text of the telegram is sent electronically to the
town/city/district the recipient is in and is printed and delivered
either by a Personal Messenger or sent by First Class Post (the sender's
choice).

Things vary for international telegrams, however.
Sending a telegram from the UK to Canada:

Postal delivery, usually 3-4 working days. Rural areas take longer.
In addition delivery will be made by telephone if a number can be
located.

Extract from general information about international services:

All telegrams are sent to the country of destination by telegraphic
means. If it says 'postal delivery' in the delivery details above,
this means that your telegram is posted from within the destination
country, NOT from the UK.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Rich Ulrich]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 22:10:31 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <20201004194301.c02c...@gmail.com> Anton Shepelev <antof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Not so in USSR, little though I rembember it. It was customary to
>> send a telegram as the hearald before a visit to relatives. We
>> always did whenever we went to our relatives in a village 450 km
>> away. The death of a relative used to be another occasion for
>> sending a telegram -- to make sure the receiver can come to the
>> funeral on time.
>
>Telegrams in the US were very expensive. I sent one, once. I ended up
>not having to pay for it as they could not deliver it, but it was in the
>area of $30 in 1984 or so (about $75 now). The telegram consisted of,
>IIRC, seven words. At the time, a gallon of milk was $1 and movie
>tickets for first run movies were about $3-4.

USSR vs. US? It was maybe as late as that 1984 when I
read about the popularity of telegrams in the USSR.
I read that they were cheap and fast, and very common.
I think that that was offered as part of a commentary on
telephone service. Not many phones? Expensive? Bad
connections over long distance? All of those, probably.

It was in the 1980s, IIRC, before the US phone lines were
upgraded enough that a long distance call sounded as
clear as a local call.

Or even locally -- I remember I had reasons to call the
Pitt Computer Center about computer accounts, and Peggy
could easily recognize my voice over the phone, 1980, well
enough to act on requests about accounts.

Just a few years before, the band width had been low enough
that voice recognition had been a lot iffier.


--
Rich Ulrich

[Anton Shepelev]

Rich Ulrich:

> USSR vs. US?

Yes, that's interesting.

> It was maybe as late as that 1984 when I read
> about the popularity of telegrams in the USSR. I

> read that they were cheap and fast, and very com-
> mon.

I think that was true.

> I think that that was offered as part of a commen-
> tary on telephone service.

Commentary? Did you mean complimentary?

> Not many phones? Expensive? Bad connections over
> long distance? All of those, probably.

They were very cheap, but often very hard to install
for bureaucratical reasons. When something was hard
to get, it was often not because of a high price, as
in the capitalist countries, but because of scarci-
ty. Sometimes people had to wait years in a "queue"
to buy a car for which they had money. On the other
hand, my grandfather had a car for free as an in-
valid.

When the other party had no phone installed, as was
the case with my relatives in the village, one would
send a telegram in order to arrange a call via a
"long-distance office" -- usually sharing the build-
ing with the local post office.

I got my first phone only in late nineteenths, with
a number that looked custom: 69-66-96, but that was
a coincedence. How I had envied my schoolmates who
could discuss their homework and arrange things on
the phone!

[Lewis]

In message <es4onf116td6ena06...@4ax.com> Rich Ulrich <rich....@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 22:10:31 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>>In message <20201004194301.c02c...@gmail.com> Anton Shepelev <antof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Not so in USSR, little though I rembember it. It was customary to
>>> send a telegram as the hearald before a visit to relatives. We
>>> always did whenever we went to our relatives in a village 450 km
>>> away. The death of a relative used to be another occasion for
>>> sending a telegram -- to make sure the receiver can come to the
>>> funeral on time.
>>
>>Telegrams in the US were very expensive. I sent one, once. I ended up
>>not having to pay for it as they could not deliver it, but it was in the
>>area of $30 in 1984 or so (about $75 now). The telegram consisted of,
>>IIRC, seven words. At the time, a gallon of milk was $1 and movie
>>tickets for first run movies were about $3-4.

> USSR vs. US?

I am sure that telegrams were much more expensive in the US than
other places because there was a monopoly on telegrams.

> It was in the 1980s, IIRC, before the US phone lines were
> upgraded enough that a long distance call sounded as
> clear as a local call.

Agree to disagree, I don't think long distance ever sounded as good as a
local call.

--
"If I were willing to change my morals for convenience or financial
gain, we wouldn't be arguing, because I'd already *be* a
Republican." -- Wil Shipley

[Anton Shepelev]

Lewis:

> Agree to disagree, I don't think long distance ev-

> er sounded as good as a local call.

In Soviet Union, a crisp sound quality on the tele-
phone was a tell-tale sign it was beging tapped,
which gave rise to a modern joke that whenever your
cell phone connection becomes glitchy, all you need
is to inject some keywords in the coversation, such
as Putin, bombs, terrorism, -- and enjoy a top-qual-
ity connection till the end of the call.

[Anton Shepelev]

I wrote:

> a tell-tale sign

What, is it a tautology? Then please read the phrase
as "a dead giveaway".

[Rich Ulrich]

On Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:37:45 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Rich Ulrich:
>
>> USSR vs. US?
>
>Yes, that's interesting.
>
>> It was maybe as late as that 1984 when I read
>> about the popularity of telegrams in the USSR. I
>> read that they were cheap and fast, and very com-
>> mon.
>
>I think that was true.
>
>> I think that that was offered as part of a commen-
>> tary on telephone service.
>
>Commentary? Did you mean complimentary?

No - What I was reading was a commentary on
telephone service. And the use of telegraphs
was a tacit commentary on the use of phones.

>
>> Not many phones? Expensive? Bad connections over
>> long distance? All of those, probably.
>
>They were very cheap, but often very hard to install
>for bureaucratical reasons. When something was hard
>to get, it was often not because of a high price, as
>in the capitalist countries, but because of scarci-
>ty. Sometimes people had to wait years in a "queue"
>to buy a car for which they had money. On the other
>hand, my grandfather had a car for free as an in-
>valid.

Oh, yes. I forgot that the sort of shortages that result in
higher prices under capitalism yielded long lines under
Soviet communism.

>
>When the other party had no phone installed, as was
>the case with my relatives in the village, one would
>send a telegram in order to arrange a call via a
>"long-distance office" -- usually sharing the build-
>ing with the local post office.
>
>I got my first phone only in late nineteenths, with
>a number that looked custom: 69-66-96, but that was
>a coincedence. How I had envied my schoolmates who
>could discuss their homework and arrange things on
>the phone!

--

Rich Ulrich

[Ken Blake]

On 10/6/2020 12:00 AM, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 22:10:31 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>>In message <20201004194301.c02c...@gmail.com> Anton Shepelev <antof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Not so in USSR, little though I rembember it. It was customary to
>>> send a telegram as the hearald before a visit to relatives. We
>>> always did whenever we went to our relatives in a village 450 km
>>> away. The death of a relative used to be another occasion for
>>> sending a telegram -- to make sure the receiver can come to the
>>> funeral on time.
>>
>>Telegrams in the US were very expensive. I sent one, once. I ended up
>>not having to pay for it as they could not deliver it, but it was in the
>>area of $30 in 1984 or so (about $75 now). The telegram consisted of,
>>IIRC, seven words. At the time, a gallon of milk was $1 and movie
>>tickets for first run movies were about $3-4.
>
> USSR vs. US? It was maybe as late as that 1984 when I
> read about the popularity of telegrams in the USSR.
> I read that they were cheap and fast, and very common.
> I think that that was offered as part of a commentary on
> telephone service. Not many phones? Expensive? Bad
> connections over long distance? All of those, probably.
>
> It was in the 1980s, IIRC, before the US phone lines were
> upgraded enough that a long distance call sounded as
> clear as a local call.

It was in the late 1960s that I worked for a consultant writing contract
software for ATT. I don't remember all their names, but there were a
number of different types of long distance lines depending on where
their end points were. So some of the lines were much better than
others, and at least some of them were very good well before the 1980s

And of course these days, with cell-phones and VoIP service, it's all
completely different for most people.


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

On 10/6/2020 7:21 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <es4onf116td6ena06...@4ax.com> Rich Ulrich <rich....@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 22:10:31 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>>>In message <20201004194301.c02c...@gmail.com> Anton Shepelev <antof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Not so in USSR, little though I rembember it. It was customary to
>>>> send a telegram as the hearald before a visit to relatives. We
>>>> always did whenever we went to our relatives in a village 450 km
>>>> away. The death of a relative used to be another occasion for
>>>> sending a telegram -- to make sure the receiver can come to the
>>>> funeral on time.
>>>
>>>Telegrams in the US were very expensive. I sent one, once. I ended up
>>>not having to pay for it as they could not deliver it, but it was in the
>>>area of $30 in 1984 or so (about $75 now). The telegram consisted of,
>>>IIRC, seven words. At the time, a gallon of milk was $1 and movie
>>>tickets for first run movies were about $3-4.
>
>> USSR vs. US?
>
> I am sure that telegrams were much more expensive in the US than
> other places because there was a monopoly on telegrams.
>
>> It was in the 1980s, IIRC, before the US phone lines were
>> upgraded enough that a long distance call sounded as
>> clear as a local call.
>
> Agree to disagree, I don't think long distance ever sounded as good as a
> local call.

It does for me these days, using my VoIP phone.


--
Ken

[Anton Shepelev]

Rich Ulrich:

> I forgot that the sort of shortages that result in
> higher prices under capitalism yielded long lines
> under Soviet communism.

In the first 40 or so years of its existence, the
Soviet Union made steady progress on the way to im-
plementing communism. In 1960 Khruschev promised
communism in twenty years, and many people sincerely
believed their children would live under communism
at last. But we started to sag half-way up the
slope, then slowed down and halted, then yielded
back, and finally, in the ninenties, went down head
over heals. Nobody ever claimed there was communism
in USSR, only a failed attempt to build it.

The difficulty of controlling the economy of a large
technologically advanced state might be abated by
the use of computers, but the best effort in that
direction was ruined by an act of capitalist aggres-
sion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

[Sam Plusnet]

The first episode of a BBC documentary series dealt with a similar
attempt in the USSR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a0V2JFh6vY


--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

On 06-Oct-20 10:37, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Rich Ulrich:
>
>

> Yes, that's interesting.
>
>> It was maybe as late as that 1984 when I read
>> about the popularity of telegrams in the USSR. I
>> read that they were cheap and fast, and very com-
>> mon.
>
> I think that was true.
>
>> I think that that was offered as part of a commen-
>> tary on telephone service.
>
> Commentary? Did you mean complimentary?
>
>> Not many phones? Expensive? Bad connections over
>> long distance? All of those, probably.
>
> They were very cheap, but often very hard to install
> for bureaucratical reasons. When something was hard
> to get, it was often not because of a high price, as
> in the capitalist countries, but because of scarci-
> ty. Sometimes people had to wait years in a "queue"
> to buy a car for which they had money. On the other
> hand, my grandfather had a car for free as an in-
> valid.
>

A friend (sadly no longer with us) lived in Moscow during the 1960s.

She said that all phone calls within the Moscow area were free and
heavily used whenever you were trying to get something repaired.

You would to phone someone, who might know someone, who in turn just
might know someone - who knew a plumber/electrician/etc who might be
persuaded to do the job as a 'favour'.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Anton Shepelev]

Sam Plusnet:

> She said that all phone calls within the Moscow
> area were free and heavily used whenever you were
> trying to get something repaired.

Local telephone calls were and are free except for a
fixed monthly fee. I used to talk for hours on end,
but when I got dial-up internet conflicts arised be-
tween those who "needed" to surf the net and those
who "needed" to make a call or were expecting one.

> You would to phone someone, who might know some-

> one, who in turn just might know someone - who

> knew a plumber/electrician/etc who might be per-

> suaded to do the job as a 'favour'.

That favour often amounted to a bottle of suitably
good stuff. The deficit created the "difference of
potentials" conductive to communication, because ev-
erybody had their own specific connections and abil-
ities to exchange for those of others. For example,
my father helped a neighbor with electrics, and the
neighbor helped him with the tin-ware for a car fa-
ther was assembling from two similar derelict cars.
This is how our cross-bread received a body perime-
ter (doors, fenders, &c) made entirely of stainless
steel. It made the car heavier, but there was not a
speck of rust on it when we sold it for a symbolic
sum twenty years later in an otherwise ruined state.

For whoever can read a little Russian, here is a
number about the role of deficit in Soviet life that
Mikhail Zhvantetsky wrote for Arkadiy Raikin circa
1970s:

http://www.jvanetsky.ru/data/text/t7/defizit/?print=1

It concludes with the following bleak picture of the
promised abundance under communism:

You bought it, I bought it, that guy we dis-
like -- he too bought it. Everybody bought it.
We all walk about gloomy and pale. We yawn. We
encounter the warehouse manager -- and fail to
notice him. The director of the retail store
comes by -- and we don't care a carrot for him.
The commodity expert from the footware section is
like a simple engineer to us [engineers were
often underpayd]. Is it good? It is disgusting!
Let us have abundance, but it must lack some-
thing.

--
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[Anton Shepelev]

Sam Plusnet to Anton Shepelev:

> > The difficulty of controlling the economy of a
> > large technologically advanced state might be

> > abated by the use of computers, but the best ef-

> > fort in that direction was ruined by an act of

> > capitalist aggression:

> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
>
> The first episode of a BBC documentary series
> dealt with a similar attempt in the USSR.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a0V2JFh6vY

That is a totally different idea -- a dehumanising
brand of social engineering, instead of computer-
aided optimisation of planned economy in Chile.

--
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