Yiddish Expletive
fatte...@yahoo.com
proper rendering in English of the Yiddish word: fercockt, facacta,
fakacta, fakokta.
Also, if any one might know the etymology of this word and its precise
definition in English, I'd much appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
Dena Jo
> Hello, I was just wondering which, if any, of the following is the
> proper rendering in English of the Yiddish word: fercockt, facacta,
> fakacta, fakokta.
Surprisingly, Leo Rosten doesn't include the word in "The Joys of Yiddish";
however, I have another Yiddish dictionary by Arthur Naiman, "Every Goy's
Guide to Common Jewish Expressions" (much better title than "The Joys of
Yiddish," if you ask me, which you didn't), and that lists two spellings,
fercockt and fercockta. Naiman defines it as "More or less equivalent to
'fucked up.' (Literally, shitted up.)"
HTH
--
Dena Jo
Joel Rubin
Of course, there's always the German spelling verkokte although I
gather that in German it might sooner refer to say an oil valve that
has been clogged up with gunk.
fatte...@yahoo.com
Dena Jo <den...@csNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:<Xns930991D2450Ed...@130.133.1.4>...
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> fatte...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Hello, I was just wondering which, if any, of the following is the
> > proper rendering in English of the Yiddish word: fercockt, facacta,
> > fakacta, fakokta.
None of them is proper. They are all amateurish and wrong. The
*only* correct transliteration is "farkakt." It's from "far-" (a
generally negative prefix, as its German cognate "ver-") and "kakn,
kaken" ('to shit'; German cognate "kacken"; both from Latin "cacare,"
'to shit'). In some Yiddish dialects, "far-" is spelled and
pronounced "fer-" but the YIVO standard is "far-."
"Farkakt" is the basic, uninflected form. Depending on its function
and position in a sentence, case (nominative, accusative), gender
(masculine, feminine, neuter) and number (singular, plural) of the
noun it modifies, and any preceding article (definite, indefinite) and
similar (possessives, demonstratives), "-e," "-em," "-en," or "-er"
must be added. These endings are represented by the amateurish "-a"
above. Example:
a farkakt kind = a shitty child
dos farkakte kind = the shitty child
> Surprisingly, Leo Rosten doesn't include the word in "The Joys of Yiddish";
Thank God. One less Yiddish word for him to butcher, as far as
spelling and etymology are concerned. (Der Rosten iz a farkakter
shmok!)
> however, I have another Yiddish dictionary by Arthur Naiman, "Every Goy's
> Guide to Common Jewish Expressions" (much better title than "The Joys of
> Yiddish," if you ask me, which you didn't), and that lists two spellings,
> fercockt and fercockta.
Naiman is just as unscholarly as Rosten. The underlying verb is not
"cocken" but "kak(e)n." "Cocken" is silly Yinglish.
> Naiman defines it as "More or less equivalent to
> 'fucked up.' (Literally, shitted up.)"
I would add the meaning "shitty," both in its literal and figurative
senses. Modern colloquial German also has a similar adjective,
"verschissen"; from "scheissen" ('to shit'), with the same and
additional meanings.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
M A L E D I C T A
P.O. Box 14123
Santa Rosa, CA 95402, USA
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> Of course, there's always the German spelling verkokte although I
> gather that in German it might sooner refer to say an oil valve that
> has been clogged up with gunk.
I guess you're joking, Joel. German "verkokte" is in no way related
to German "verkackte" and Yiddish "farkakte," however misspelled the
latter commonly is. The German verb/adjective you mentioned is
derived from "Koks" ('coke,' the carbon kind) and means what you said,
specifically referring to a pipe or valve clogged up with *carbon*
deposits, such as those of an oil refinery's hot oil furnaces.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Peter T. Daniels
How can the Yiddish word be "misspelled," in anything other than its
Hebrew-derived orthography? There is a wide variety of (English)
spellings, since the word hasn't entered mainstream English yet, and
there are several competing scholarly transliterations for Yiddish, no
one of which can be called correct.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Simon R. Hughes
So you're saying a yud's as good as ayim.
--
Simon R. Hughes
"I often think there should exist a special typographical
sign for a smile -- some sort of concave mark, a supine
round bracket" -- Vladimir Nabokov, _Strong Opinions_.
Kai Henningsen
Well yes, if you wanted closer to the Yiddish you might try "verkackt" (or
"bekackt") which is an exact translation, but not in common use though
every German would understand it if used as an adhective - common is
"beschissen" which would also be an exact translation. Not to be confused
with "verschissen", which though similar etymologically means someone's
had it as far as someone else is concerned. (Well, it can also mean "full
of shit", but only literally, not metaphorically.)
Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
- Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
Ray Heindl
> fatte...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Hello, I was just wondering which, if any, of the following is
>> the proper rendering in English of the Yiddish word: fercockt,
>> facacta, fakacta, fakokta.
>
> Surprisingly, Leo Rosten doesn't include the word in "The Joys of
> Yiddish"; however, I have another Yiddish dictionary by Arthur
> Naiman, "Every Goy's Guide to Common Jewish Expressions" (much
> better title than "The Joys of Yiddish," if you ask me, which you
> didn't), [snip]
I'm surprised Rosten didn't use either "The Goys of Yiddish" or "The
Oys of Yiddish". Either would be better than the trite "Joys".
--
Ray Heindl
Dena Jo
> I'm surprised Rosten didn't use either "The Goys of Yiddish" or "The
> Oys of Yiddish".
"The Oys of Yiddish" would have been cute.
--
Dena Jo
Christopher Green
I've also heard "verkalkt", for plumbing that's been clogged with
hard-water deposits. If the speaker tends to drop l's, it sounds like
"verkackt". Again, the root word is something else entirely.
--
Chris Green
mb
...
> How can the Yiddish word be "misspelled," in anything other than its
> Hebrew-derived orthography? There is a wide variety of (English)
> spellings, since the word hasn't entered mainstream English yet, and
> there are several competing scholarly transliterations for Yiddish, no
> one of which can be called correct.
Among the "transliterations", as you say, one is the way any German
speakers would write their dialect (and wince at phonetic or other
misspellings in the Latin alphabet). Certainly not all Yiddish
speakers knew Hebrew letters. A guy I knew (professor in Prague in
pre-war days) who had an entire library of German-orthography Yiddish
books said there used to be a dispute about orthography. Also
interesting is the controversy between Ladino speakers educated in
Castilian and those who stick to Turkish-style phonetic spelling,
recorded by Menendez Pidal. Hearing the Hebrew writing considered
original and the Latin a transliteration, for a Germanic language,
makes a strange impression (even if true).
Peter T. Daniels
"An entire library of German-orthography Yiddish books"?? This is
mind-boggling. Where and when were they produced? How is it that the
standard reference works on Yiddish are unaware of such a thing
(Weinreich, Birnbaum)?
mb
> "An entire library of German-orthography Yiddish books"?? This is
> mind-boggling. Where and when were they produced? How is it that the
> standard reference works on Yiddish are unaware of such a thing
> (Weinreich, Birnbaum)?
I wouldn't know. All I remember (this was 50 years ago) is that there
were a good number of Yiddish books written in German (in addition to
some other dialect books, Alsatian, Bavarian etc). All the German and
dialect books were on one side of the room, the Hebrew stuff on the
other. They were mainly penny-novels and revolutionary pamphlets, I
also remember a couple of detective pulp translated from English. The
guy, a Prof. Weinstein, had left Prague around 1935, spoke Yiddish but
couldn't write it (taught and wrote German). Just as a guess, they
could have been produced in Prague (perhaps also Poland?)
Peter T. Daniels
Since no one seems to have any further details, I'll try asking my
contacts ...
John Smith
> <...> All I remember (this was 50 years ago) is that there
> were a good number of Yiddish books written in German <...>
I have a library of French books written in Spanish.
\\P. Schultz
mb
> > were a good number of Yiddish books written in German (in addition to
> Since no one seems to have any further details, I'll try asking my
> contacts ...
Inquired about the grandaughter's whereabouts. Might find her in a
couple of months if I'm lucky.
mb
You mean by a vache espagnole. OK Smartie, Yiddish books written in
the Latin alphabet with German orthography. Happy now?
Professor Redwine
I
: gather that in German it might sooner refer to say an oil valve
that
: has been clogged up with gunk.
Yes. This actually refers to "silting" up with coke. Much like my
digestive tract, except that tends to be Pepsi.
The Yiddish term, I believe, is actually a derivation from the
same route as modern German "Kacke" meaning "shit" and "Kacken"
meaning "to shit". With prefix "ver" and conjugated with "te" you
can coin a German word "verkackte" to mean completely
over-shitted, with the narrative form of the past tense
suggesting that it really is complete, established history.
Without the final "e" it is in the present perfect.
Not sure, but I suspect the Yiddish words are actually separate
in origin, one referring to blocking with coke and the other to
being shitted up, the two (in our stereotypical word-play without
respect for language) being merged into one.
Redwine (a half-yid, grew up on English, working as a language
teacher and translator in Berlin)
Peter T. Daniels
> Well, I’m reminded of Shaw’s Arms and the Man, where in the first act or
> two there are constant references to "the largest library in Bulgaria."
> The final act is set in the "library" of the protagonist, described as
> having one shelf with yellow-covered books. So, too, it may be that
> there is a "library"of Yiddish books in transliteration. I'm aware of
> several, primarily those of Immanuel Olsvanger. One of his books is:
>
> OLSVANGER, IMMANUEL and SCHWEIZERISCHE KOMMISSION FÜR JÜDISCHE
> VOLKSKUNDE. 1931. Rosinkess mit Mandlen : aus der Volksliteratur der
> Ostjuden, Schwänke, Erzählungen, Sprichwörter, und Rätsel. Basel: Verlag
> der Schweizerischen Gesellschaft für Volkskunde.
>
> The transliteration is, if I recall correctly, sort of German-based, but
> pan-dialectal. Another collection of his is
>
> Author: Olsvanger, Immanuel, ed.
> Title: Röyte pomerantsen : Jewish folk humor / gathered and edited by
> Immanuel Olsvanger.
> Imprint: New York : Schocken Books, 1965.
> Description: xxiv, 203 p. ; 21 cm.
> Notes: Yiddish transcribed into Roman characters.
> Glossary: p. 185-203.
> "Most of the stories ... were originally published by the author, with a
> different transliteration, in Rosinkes mit Mandlen ... Basle, 1921, (2nd
> ed., 1931), and in Reyte Pomeranzen ... Berlin, 1935".
> Subjects:
> Tales, Jewish.
>
> The umlaut-o in "röyte" indicates the pronunciation /royte/ in the south
> and /reyte/ in the north. My recollection is that the American edition
> of Rosinkess mit mandlen is different from Röyte Pomerantsn, but I could
> be wrong.
>
> There were probably other similar works at the time, not to speak of
> numerous works which had, e.g., Yiddish proverbs in transliteration
> along with English translation. The tradition is not dead. A couple of
> years ago "Vini der Pu" appeared in the US; the first chapter is given
> in Yiddish orthography and transliteration; the rest of the book is only
> in transliteration (this time, the "official" YIVO transliteration).
mb
>
> > Well, I'm reminded of Shaw's Arms and the Man, where in the first act or
> > two there are constant references to "the largest library in Bulgaria."
> > The final act is set in the "library" of the protagonist, described as
> > having one shelf with yellow-covered books. So, too, it may be that
> > there is a "library"of Yiddish books in transliteration. I'm aware of
> > several, primarily those of Immanuel Olsvanger. One of his books is:
Interesting. Very apt parallel with the Bulgarian library, especially
for a childhood memory, but I'm sure there was more than one shelf of
these. The Berlin and Basle indications are interesting too,
considering that several of these books were revolutionary tracts.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Dena Jo wrote:
>
>> fatte...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> > Hello, I was just wondering which, if any, of the following is the
>> > proper rendering in English of the Yiddish word: fercockt, facacta,
>> > fakacta, fakokta.
>
> None of them is proper. They are all amateurish and wrong. The
> *only* correct transliteration is "farkakt." It's from "far-" (a
> generally negative prefix, as its German cognate "ver-")
I'm not sure what you mean here by "generally negative". It's certainly
not negative in the sense that "um-" is negative. Do you mean pejorative,
or what?
<snip>
> Depending on its function and position in a sentence, case (nominative,
> accusative), gender (masculine, feminine, neuter) and number (singular,
> plural) of the noun it modifies, and any preceding article (definite,
> indefinite) and similar (possessives, demonstratives), "-e," "-em,"
> "-en," or "-er" must be added.
"-Em"? Yiddish doesn't do "-em", I thought. Or rather, it does, but only
as the allomorph of "-en" after [n]. "Farkakt" wouldn't get an "-em".
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
M. Ranjit Mathews
Harlan Messinger
"M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1d4c67e3.03012...@posting.google.com...
I remember on a youth trip years ago, a Belgian participant with a guitar,
twanging it Spanish-style, singing, "Ferma la puerta / porque si tu no
fermas pas la puerta / attraperás un bronquito."
Peter T. Daniels
German-orthography Yiddish "library" in Prague:
> > I really can't imagine what a whole library would consist of. There are
> > hundreds of works by German authors that contain from a bit to a whole lot
> > of representation of Jewish speech, but if you were to just cull the West
> > Yiddish part from them, it would only fill a couple of volumes, hardly a
> > whole library. The internal writings of the Jews in anything but good
> > German were almost exclusively in the Yiddish alefbeys. There are a few
> > exceptions, but not many. Perhaps a couple more thick volumes would hold
> > the whole corpus. Thus the "whole library" would be a rather small one, say
> > one to two feet of bookshelf.
Evan Kirshenbaum
I've got a copy of _Vini-der-pu_, by that noted Yiddish author
A.A. Milne, in, I believe, YIVO transliteration. (Okay, it's
translated by Leonard Wolf. Supposedly the translation is quite
good.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |There is no such thing as bad data,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only data from bad homes.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
[...]
> > None of them is proper. They are all amateurish and wrong. The
> > *only* correct transliteration is "farkakt." It's from "far-"
> > (a generally negative prefix, as its German cognate "ver-")
> I'm not sure what you mean here by "generally negative". It's certainly
> not negative in the sense that "um-" is negative. Do you mean pejorative,
> or what?
For lack of a better term, I called it "a generally negative prefix."
What I mean is that Yiddish "far-" (like German "ver-") is very often
found in verbs and adjectives that have a negative (not necessarily
pejorative) meaning.
Examples: farbisn, farbitert, farblonzhn, farbrent, fardorbn,
fardrisn, farfaln, farfeyln, farfirn, farforn, farfoylt, fargesn,
fargvaldikn, farkert, farkrenkn, farkrimt, farmatert, farmisht,
farshemen, farshlofn, farshtern, farshtunkn, farshvindn, farshvitst.
Yes, "far-" also appears with verbs and adjectives of a positive
nature, but the vast majority of "far-" words are negative.
> <snip>
> > Depending on its function and position in a sentence, case (nominative,
> > accusative), gender (masculine, feminine, neuter) and number (singular,
> > plural) of the noun it modifies, and any preceding article (definite,
> > indefinite) and similar (possessives, demonstratives), "-e," "-em,"
> > "-en," or "-er" must be added.
> "-Em"? Yiddish doesn't do "-em", I thought. Or rather, it does, but only
> as the allomorph of "-en" after [n]. "Farkakt" wouldn't get an "-em".
I took the endings from Weinreich's _College Yiddish_, p. 48, and made
a typo. It should be "-es," not "-em." Thanks.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Yiddish for Yankees
>
> > Hello, I was just wondering which, if any, of the following is the
> > proper rendering in English of the Yiddish word: fercockt, facacta,
> > fakacta, fakokta.
>
> however, I have another Yiddish dictionary by Arthur Naiman, "Every Goy's
> Guide to Common Jewish Expressions" (much better title than "The Joys of
> fercockt and fercockta. Naiman defines it as "More or less equivalent to
> 'fucked up.' (Literally, shitted up.)"
It was in "Yiddish for Yankees or, Funny, You Don't Look Gentile"
which was published a bit before Rosten.
"verkockteh (fur *kock* teh) A ribald word meaning worse than crappy.
No offense, but this book wouldn't be complete if I didn't include it.
"
John Smith
They really do talk like that in the Pyrenees. The language that the
Virgin Mary spoke to St. Bernadette in was Bigourdan, an Occitan variety
spoken in Bigorre, around Tarbes and Lourdes. "Que soy era Immaculada
Councepciou," said the Lady.
\\P. Schultz
Paul L. Madarasz
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote, perhaps among other things:
>I've got a copy of _Vini-der-pu_, by that noted Yiddish author
>A.A. Milne, in, I believe, YIVO transliteration. (Okay, it's
>translated by Leonard Wolf. Supposedly the translation is quite
>good.)
Would that be Leonard Wolff, husband of Virginia?
--
Paul L. Madarasz
Tucson, Baja Arizona
"How 'bout cuttin' that rebop?"
-- S. Kowalski
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Don Aitken
<pl...@dakotacom.net> wrote:
>On 24 Jan 2003 14:15:38 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
><kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote, perhaps among other things:
>
>
>>I've got a copy of _Vini-der-pu_, by that noted Yiddish author
>>A.A. Milne, in, I believe, YIVO transliteration. (Okay, it's
>>translated by Leonard Wolf. Supposedly the translation is quite
>>good.)
>
>Would that be Leonard Wolff, husband of Virginia?
No. That was Leonard Woolf. And I'm fairly certain that he spoke no
Yiddish.
--
Don Aitken
C. Rugosa
Yes. Aber je prefer un gemütliches praatje nello Europanto.
Carlos Rugosa.
John Smith
> > <...>
> >Would that be Leonard Wolff, husband of Virginia?
>
> No. That was Leonard Woolf. And I'm fairly certain that he spoke no
> Yiddish.
Excepting, possibly, "oy", which is common to Yiddish and to London
slang.
\\P. Schultz
Laura F Spira
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> > Here's what the second respondent has to say about the
> > German-orthography Yiddish "library" in Prague:
> >
> > > > I really can't imagine what a whole library would consist
> > > > of. There are hundreds of works by German authors that contain
> > > > from a bit to a whole lot of representation of Jewish speech,
> > > > but if you were to just cull the West Yiddish part from them, it
> > > > would only fill a couple of volumes, hardly a whole library. The
> > > > internal writings of the Jews in anything but good German were
> > > > almost exclusively in the Yiddish alefbeys. There are a few
> > > > exceptions, but not many. Perhaps a couple more thick volumes
> > > > would hold the whole corpus. Thus the "whole library" would be a
> > > > rather small one, say one to two feet of bookshelf.
>
> I've got a copy of _Vini-der-pu_, by that noted Yiddish author
> A.A. Milne, in, I believe, YIVO transliteration. (Okay, it's
> translated by Leonard Wolf. Supposedly the translation is quite
> good.)
>
>
My mother has found it greatly entertaining: she has been reading it
alongside the English version and tells me that the translation is very
good.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Laura F Spira
Difficult to imagine Leonard Woolf using slang of any description.
Peter T. Daniels
And was long deceased before that book was published a year or so ago.
Peter Moylan
>> Soui? Hablez vouz Francais?
>
> I remember on a youth trip years ago, a Belgian participant with a guitar,
> twanging it Spanish-style, singing, "Ferma la puerta / porque si tu no
> fermas pas la puerta / attraperás un bronquito."
Since my knowledge of Spanish is close to nonexistent, I have to
ask: is "Ferma la puerta" the Spanish translation of "Je t'adore"?
OK, I give up. You have just forced me to go and consult my wife's
French/Spanish dictionary. (But not for the "tu no fermas pas",
which doesn't sound very Spanish even to someone like me.) I see
that "bronquitis" is feminine. Would a French speaker really get
the gender of that word wrong?
Je suis un rockstar
Je haver une résidence
Je habiter là
A la South of France.
Voulez-vous
Partir with me?
You can rester là
With me in France.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au
John Smith
>
> John Smith wrote:
> >
> > Don Aitken wrote:
> > > > <...>
> > > >Would that be Leonard Wolff, husband of Virginia?
> > >
> > > No. That was Leonard Woolf. And I'm fairly certain that he spoke no
> > > Yiddish.
> >
> > Excepting, possibly, "oy", which is common to Yiddish and to London
> > slang.
> >
> Difficult to imagine Leonard Woolf using slang of any description.
Unless you know about his secret other life. I think he was in the
chorus of the original production of "Me and My Girl" at the Victoria
Palace.
\\P. Schultz
mb
..
> Since my knowledge of Spanish is close to nonexistent, I have to
> ask: is "Ferma la puerta" the Spanish translation of "Je t'adore"?
>
> OK, I give up. You have just forced me to go and consult my wife's
> French/Spanish dictionary. (But not for the "tu no fermas pas",
> which doesn't sound very Spanish even to someone like me.) I see
> that "bronquitis" is feminine. Would a French speaker really get
> the gender of that word wrong?
To spanish, one have could say that that-there is plus or minus the
correspondent of this here, which I am in the train of scribing to
you. When to the genre of the one word of which you talk, it is the
feminine in all the two languages, but it additions a little salt, is
it not?
Let me know if anything is unclear.
david56
That's easy for you to say.
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.
Bruce Tober
<jsm...@company.com> writes
Sorry, but the Yiddish is "oy" and means something akin to "oh m'gawd",
whereas the UK slang is "oi!" and means something akin to "hey you!".
--
| Bruce Tober, <t...@star-dot-star.co.uk> , <http://www.star-dot-star.co.uk> |
| UK, EU +44-780-374-8255 (Mobile) |
| Now represented by The Speakers Agency Ltd |
| <http://www.thespeakersagency.com/speakerdetail.asp?speaker=160> |
mb
> That's easy for you to say.
Tush. It takes a lot of work to get the words, the word-order and the
tone right. Heck, it's even harder to write than proper English!
david56
Hoping for onward interrogative sublimation, it surely mains
establishment at the distance.
Yes, you're right.
Bruce Tober
<azy...@mail.com> writes
Would that be the British, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Canadian, Australian,
US or other version of proper English?
Jacqui
> John Smith writes
>>Excepting, possibly, "oy", which is common to Yiddish and to
>>London slang.
>
> Sorry, but the Yiddish is "oy" and means something akin to "oh
> m'gawd", whereas the UK slang is "oi!" and means something akin to
> "hey you!".
No. Plenty of non-Jewish Brits understand and use "oy vey". Possibly
related to usage on TV, possibly not.
Jac
Bruce Tober
obli...@hotmail.com> writes
Well, yes, but John's specific comment was ""oy", which is common to
Yiddish and to London slang." Oy isn't London slang, it's Yiddish slang
sometimes used by Brits, just as it is sometimes used by the French,
Germans, yanks, etc.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In message <3E32F996...@company.com>, John Smith
> <jsm...@company.com> writes
> >Don Aitken wrote:
> >> > <...>
> >> >Would that be Leonard Wolff, husband of Virginia?
> >>
> >> No. That was Leonard Woolf. And I'm fairly certain that he spoke no
> >> Yiddish.
> >
> >Excepting, possibly, "oy", which is common to Yiddish and to London
> >slang.
>
> Sorry, but the Yiddish is "oy" and means something akin to "oh m'gawd",
> whereas the UK slang is "oi!" and means something akin to "hey you!".
Can you hear the different spellings?
Simon R. Hughes
In Germanic languages, yes. Can't you?
--
Simon R. Hughes
"I often think there should exist a special typographical
sign for a smile -- some sort of concave mark, a supine
round bracket" -- Vladimir Nabokov, _Strong Opinions_.
Bruce Tober
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes
Mostly yes, think about how each of my two "translations" sound when
used (the latter one shouted, for example) and you get the general idea.
Paul L. Madarasz
<t...@star-dot-star.co.uk> wrote, perhaps among other things:
>In message <3E32F996...@company.com>, John Smith
><jsm...@company.com> writes
>>Don Aitken wrote:
>>> > <...>
>>> >Would that be Leonard Wolff, husband of Virginia?
Actually, I wrote that, fumble-fingers and all.
>>>
>>> No. That was Leonard Woolf. And I'm fairly certain that he spoke no
>>> Yiddish.
>>
>>Excepting, possibly, "oy", which is common to Yiddish and to London
>>slang.
>
>Sorry, but the Yiddish is "oy" and means something akin to "oh m'gawd",
>whereas the UK slang is "oi!" and means something akin to "hey you!".
Wasn't that some kind of skinhead racist music from 20 years ago?
Oi? Oy!
Laura F Spira
> and "oy gevalt" appears to be used more commonly by Brits than by
> Americans. "Nosh" is not commonly used by Amricans either.
I have to say that I have never yet heard a non-Jewish Brit say "oy
vey". "Nosh" has been common for a long time. I was amazed to hear a
non-Jewish friend recently talk about "schlepping". I have taught
friends expressing pride in their offspring about "kvelling" and
"nachas".
Jacqui
> I have to say that I have never yet heard a non-Jewish Brit say
> "oy vey".
Come meet my mum then. :) It's very common among non-Jewish Brits who
grew up in London - possibly because of the mixture of people living
there post-war.
Jac
Susan Cohen
"Jacqui" <sirlawren...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93118205DF0...@163.1.2.7...
> Bruce Tober wibbled:
> > John Smith writes
>
> >>Excepting, possibly, "oy", which is common to Yiddish and to
> >>London slang.
> >
> > Sorry, but the Yiddish is "oy" and means something akin to "oh
> > m'gawd", whereas the UK slang is "oi!" and means something akin to
> > "hey you!".
>
> No.
Uh, *yes* - the two words are different - but this might not be what you
mean?
Susan
Jacqui
>
> "Jacqui" <sirlawren...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns93118205DF0...@163.1.2.7...
>> Bruce Tober wibbled:
>> > John Smith writes
>>
>> >>Excepting, possibly, "oy", which is common to Yiddish and to
>> >>London slang.
>> >
>> > Sorry, but the Yiddish is "oy" and means something akin to "oh
>> > m'gawd", whereas the UK slang is "oi!" and means something akin
>> > to "hey you!".
>>
>> No.
>> Plenty of non-Jewish Brits understand and use "oy vey". Possibly
>> related to usage on TV, possibly not.
> Uh, *yes* - the two words are different - but this might not be
> what you mean?
If you had not separated the two parts of the same paragraph it might
be clearer. The UK slang lexicon includes "oy" as well as "oi", so "No"
related to Bruce's assertion that "oy" is not part of London slang. It
is.
I should have made it clearer that as well as "oy vey" (which is
common) Brits do use "oy" in a context that can only be "oy", as "oi"
would make no sense.
Jac
mb
(Bruce Tober)
...
> > Sorry, but the Yiddish is "oy" and means something akin to "oh m'gawd",
> > whereas the UK slang is "oi!" and means something akin to "hey you!".
>
> Can you hear the different spellings?
I'm sure you can hear the different meanings.
John Smith
>
> Well, yes, but John's specific comment was ""oy", which is common to
Wrong. It is genuine cockney slang, unrelated to Yiddish.
\\P. Schultz
John Smith
>
> Laura F Spira <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
> > Murray Arnow wrote:
> > > Brits have also adopted "nosh" as well. The "oy" from "oy veh ist mir"
> > > and "oy gevalt" appears to be used more commonly by Brits than by
> > > Americans. "Nosh" is not commonly used by Amricans either.
> >
> > I have to say that I have never yet heard a non-Jewish Brit say "oy
> > vey". "Nosh" has been common for a long time. I was amazed to hear a
> > non-Jewish friend recently talk about "schlepping". I have taught
> > friends expressing pride in their offspring about "kvelling" and
> > "nachas".
> >
>
I think "nosh" moved into mainstream British English long before it even
began to do so on this side.
Here's an example of the inroads made by Yiddish slang in the U.S. An
acquaintance of mine was in a diner in West Virginia, and he overheard
one ball-capped local saying to another, in a thick mountain twang,
"Tryin' to reason with that guy is like yellin' up a dead horse's
tyookis."
\\P. Schultz
Aaron J. Dinkin
> "Aaron J. Dinkin" wrote:
>
>> Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
>
>> > Depending on its function and position in a sentence, case
>> > (nominative, accusative), gender (masculine, feminine, neuter) and
>> > number (singular, plural) of the noun it modifies, and any preceding
>> > article (definite, indefinite) and similar (possessives,
>> > demonstratives), "-e," "-em," "-en," or "-er" must be added.
>
>> "-Em"? Yiddish doesn't do "-em", I thought. Or rather, it does, but
>> only as the allomorph of "-en" after [n]. "Farkakt" wouldn't get an
>> "-em".
>
> I took the endings from Weinreich's _College Yiddish_, p. 48, and made
> a typo. It should be "-es," not "-em." Thanks.
No problem. And now I'm just being nitpicky, but I don't think one would
ever get "-es", as such, in Yiddish. There is "-s", but I don't believe it
ever adds a syllable.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Bruce Tober
<jsm...@company.com> writes
Which is? Oi as in hey you, or oy as in oy vey.
Matti Lamprhey
> John Smith <jsm...@company.com> writes
> >Bruce Tober wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, yes, but John's specific comment was ""oy", which is common to
> >> Yiddish and to London slang." Oy isn't London slang, <...>
> >
> >Wrong. It is genuine cockney slang, unrelated to Yiddish.
>
> Which is? Oi as in hey you, or oy as in oy vey.
"Oi" is unrelated to Yiddish, but it ain't cockney slang, nyver.
It can be chased back to Late Middle English, to "(A)hoy". I suspect it's a
prehistoric utterance.
Matti
John Dean
> Murray Arnow wrote:
>>
>> Laura F Spira <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>>> Murray Arnow wrote:
>>>> Brits have also adopted "nosh" as well. The "oy" from "oy veh ist
>>>> mir" and "oy gevalt" appears to be used more commonly by Brits
>>>> than by Americans. "Nosh" is not commonly used by Amricans either.
>>>
>>> I have to say that I have never yet heard a non-Jewish Brit say "oy
>>> vey". "Nosh" has been common for a long time. I was amazed to hear a
>>> non-Jewish friend recently talk about "schlepping". I have taught
>>> friends expressing pride in their offspring about "kvelling" and
>>> "nachas".
>>>
>>
>> I've noticed "schlep" migrating into American English, also.
>
> I think "nosh" moved into mainstream British English long before it
> even began to do so on this side.
>
There's a British actor / stunt man called Nosher Powell.
'Kibitz', of course, has been around a while on both sides.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Laura F Spira
Aha, the lapwing resurfaces. Very soon I'll be able to repeat my egret
bon mot. (Wotcha, Padraig.)
John Dean
No, no egrets - rien de rien
John Holmes
>
> Brits have also adopted "nosh" as well. The "oy" from "oy veh ist mir"
> and "oy gevalt" appears to be used more commonly by Brits than by
> Americans. "Nosh" is not commonly used by Amricans either.
What's special about the Yiddish oy? How do you know it's not just a
Cockney "hoy" wo's lawst its haitch?
--
Regards
John
Linz
The two words - the UK slang 'oi' and the Yiddish 'oy' are different and
have different meanings.
Jacqui
But as I said elsewhere in the thread, "oy" is just as much part of
London slang as "oi" is. They do mean different things. But saying that
"oy" not a part of the vocabulary is incorrect.
Jac
Bruce Tober
<sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
Exactly my point, but some here refuse to see it.
Bruce Tober
eobl...@hotmail.com> writes
Being "part of the vocabulary" and being a slang term somewhat
frequently used (I've never heard it except amongst Jews here in my 11
years here) is not the same thing.
chano
"Bruce Tober" <t...@star-dot-star.co.uk> wrote in message
news:YeUY6MST...@btinternet.com...
Oi you lot!
My Cockney friends use the expression "Oy Vey, Already!" (with shoulders
shrugged and palms upward) in mock (???) emulation of Jewish steriotypes.
Sometimes they like to put the boot in with the additional "...Morry my
boy!", for good measure. I'm a firm believer that if it's humourous,
anything is kosher, so I demonstrate my approbation for their wit by giving
them a swift kick in the bollocks. You should see how they double up with
laughter, Oy! Do they laugh? (at least I think they're laughing). There are
many Yiddisheh words and expressions in use by the non-Jewish cognoscente in
London besides "meshuggah", "schlep", "gelt", "shmok", "dreck", "nosh",
"loch-in-kop" and "gey kacken".
Iz du a sach sach mehr tzu zoggen oif Yiddish, oib du vilst! (there's a lot
more you can say in Yiddish if you want!)
Chano
Bruce Tober
<ch...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>Oi you lot!
>My Cockney friends use the expression "Oy Vey, Already!" (with
>shoulders shrugged and palms upward) in mock (???) emulation of Jewish
>steriotypes.
Yes, I can see they might do. I've never experienced it but that's just
me.
> Sometimes they like to put the boot in with the additional "...Morry
>my boy!", for good measure. I'm a firm believer that if it's
>humourous, anything is kosher,
Hear! Hear!
>so I demonstrate my approbation for their wit by giving them a swift
>kick in the bollocks.
Makes eminently good sense to me. I'll remember to keep away from you
next time I'm in the hood.
>You should see how they double up with laughter, Oy! Do they laugh? (at
Gevalt! Hardly can I believe they could do otherwise.
>least I think they're laughing).
It's like the line between love and hate, it's very thin. So nu? Can you
not see the line between laffter and agony being think like a good slice
of lox too?
>There are many Yiddisheh words and expressions in use by the non-Jewish
>cognoscente in London besides "meshuggah", "schlep", "gelt", "shmok",
>"dreck", "nosh", "loch-in-kop" and "gey kacken". Iz du a sach sach mehr
>tzu zoggen oif Yiddish, oib du vilst! (there's a lot more you can say
>in Yiddish if you want!)
So who'd want?
John Smith
>
> But as I said elsewhere in the thread, "oy" is just as much part of
> London slang as "oi" is.
Not the point, though. The point is that London "oi" is considered
(correctly or not) as quintessential London slang, whereas the borrowed
"oy" is an obvious borrowing. So it can never really be "just as much a
part" of it.
Any time you're Lambeth Way
Any evening, any day
You'll find them all
Doing the Lambeth Walk -- OI!
"Me and My Girl", Victoria Palace, December, 1937
\\P. Schultz
Skitt
No wonder I heard that song (as /Lambetvoks/) when I was wee tyke in faraway
lands. It was the "in" song then.
Oh, I grew up with "Oy!" There used to be many Jewish people in Latvia. My
mother had learned Yiddish, as her closest friend during her early childhood
was a Jewish girl, and my mother spent a lot of her time at that girl's
house.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
Raymond S. Wise
news:b1ci5d$11jpnm$1...@ID-61580.news.dfncis.de...
> John Smith wrote:
> > Jacqui wrote:
>
> >> But as I said elsewhere in the thread, "oy" is just as much part of
> >> London slang as "oi" is.
> >
> > Not the point, though. The point is that London "oi" is considered
> > (correctly or not) as quintessential London slang, whereas the
> > borrowed "oy" is an obvious borrowing. So it can never really be
> > "just as much a part" of it.
> >
> > Any time you're Lambeth Way
> > Any evening, any day
> > You'll find them all
> > Doing the Lambeth Walk -- OI!
> >
> > "Me and My Girl", Victoria Palace, December, 1937
>
> No wonder I heard that song (as /Lambetvoks/) when I was wee tyke in
faraway
> lands. It was the "in" song then.
>
> Oh, I grew up with "Oy!" There used to be many Jewish people in Latvia.
My
> mother had learned Yiddish, as her closest friend during her early
childhood
> was a Jewish girl, and my mother spent a lot of her time at that girl's
> house.
A bit of trivia: The actor James Cagney, whose father was Irish and whose
mother was Norwegian, was fluent in Yiddish. See
http://obits.com/cagneyjames.html
Cagney spoke Yiddish in at least one movie.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Dr Robin Bignall
A very famous song during WW2.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Remote Hertfordshire
England
dcw
Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"Oi" is unrelated to Yiddish, but it ain't cockney slang, nyver.
I know it from my West-Riding father, not my Cockney grandmother.
David
Mark Wallace
The first time I saw Lambeth Walk I felt extremely let down. It's just a
tatty little street.
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
For the intelligent approach to nasty humour, visit:
The Anglo-American Humour (humor) Site
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/mainmenu.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
Linz
> Linz wibbled:
> > The two words - the UK slang 'oi' and the Yiddish 'oy' are
> > different and have different meanings.
>
> But as I said elsewhere in the thread, "oy" is just as much part of
> London slang as "oi" is. They do mean different things. But saying that
> "oy" not a part of the vocabulary is incorrect.
Right, I'm with you now. Look, it takes me all week to wake up, sorry.
Linz
> >> The two words - the UK slang 'oi' and the Yiddish 'oy' are
> >> different and have different meanings.
> >
> >But as I said elsewhere in the thread, "oy" is just as much part of
> >London slang as "oi" is. They do mean different things. But saying that
> >"oy" not a part of the vocabulary is incorrect.
>
> Being "part of the vocabulary" and being a slang term somewhat
> frequently used (I've never heard it except amongst Jews here in my 11
> years here) is not the same thing.
Oy, oy, oy, I'd have to disagree with you there, Bruce.
Linz
> In message <b1b4rl$1sij$1...@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>, Linz
> <sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
> >Jacqui wrote:
> >> Bruce Tober wibbled:
> >>> John Smith writes
> >>
> >>>> Excepting, possibly, "oy", which is common to Yiddish and to
> >>>> London slang.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, but the Yiddish is "oy" and means something akin to "oh
> >>> m'gawd", whereas the UK slang is "oi!" and means something akin to
> >>> "hey you!".
> >>
> >> No. Plenty of non-Jewish Brits understand and use "oy vey". Possibly
> >> related to usage on TV, possibly not.
> >
> >The two words - the UK slang 'oi' and the Yiddish 'oy' are different and
> >have different meanings.
>
> Exactly my point, but some here refuse to see it.
However, I now agree fully that 'oy' is common in English, as well as 'oi'.
I had fully forgotten that while my dad won't say 'oi' he does say 'oy'.
Bruce Tober
<sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
Join the queue
Bruce Tober
<sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
Cor blimey! Not before time, matey.
Robert Bannister
I am surprised if the official lyrics spell it this way. "Oy" has been
part of my English dialect for 60 years, and from the time I learnt to
read at the age of three, it has been spelt with a 'y'. (I always sang
that song with a 'y' too, but perhaps not everyone could hear it.)
--
Rob Bannister
Linz
> In message <b1e2ht$p54$1...@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>, Linz
> <sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
>>
>> "Jacqui" <sirlawren...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns93137F4836D...@163.1.2.7...
>>> Linz wibbled:
>>
>>>> The two words - the UK slang 'oi' and the Yiddish 'oy' are
>>>> different and have different meanings.
>>>
>>> But as I said elsewhere in the thread, "oy" is just as much part of
>>> London slang as "oi" is. They do mean different things. But saying
>>> that "oy" not a part of the vocabulary is incorrect.
>>
>> Right, I'm with you now. Look, it takes me all week to wake up,
>> sorry.
>
> Cor blimey! Not before time, matey.
What? Eh? I've not woken up yet.
Bruce Tober
<sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
>Bruce Tober wrote:
>> In message <b1e2ht$p54$1...@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>, Linz
>> <sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
>>>
>>> Right, I'm with you now. Look, it takes me all week to wake up,
>>> sorry.
>>
>> Cor blimey! Not before time, matey.
>
>What? Eh? I've not woken up yet.
I should be so lucky.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Bruce Tober wrote:
>> In message <b1e2ht$p54$1...@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>, Linz
>> <sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
>>> Right, I'm with you now. Look, it takes me all week to wake up,
>>> sorry.
>>
>> Cor blimey! Not before time, matey.
>
>What? Eh? I've not woken up yet.
It takes me almost exactly two hours to wake up each morning,
irregardless (tnx, Truly) of anything. I have to have a minimum of
three cups of caffeine-laden something -- usually tea but coffee will
do in a pinch -- before the grey cells are fully, ha-ha, functional.
Then there are the standard number of bowel movements to take care of:
always three, as many of you already know. Regularity is my middle
name, when it comes to that. Anyway, I can't depend on this cycle
completing itself in less than two hours. I can't go out; I have to
remain close to home for the period. I'd have been a wreck in the
Army.
Sorry if I drifted into a Coopernian, personal, who gives a damn about
such details, story.
--
Charles Riggs
chriggs |at| eircom |dot| com
Tony Cooper
<chrigg...@eircom.net> wrote:
>It takes me almost exactly two hours to wake up each morning,
>irregardless (tnx, Truly) of anything. I have to have a minimum of
>three cups of caffeine-laden something -- usually tea but coffee will
>do in a pinch -- before the grey cells are fully, ha-ha, functional.
>Then there are the standard number of bowel movements to take care of:
>always three, as many of you already know. Regularity is my middle
>name, when it comes to that. Anyway, I can't depend on this cycle
>completing itself in less than two hours. I can't go out; I have to
>remain close to home for the period. I'd have been a wreck in the
>Army.
>
>Sorry if I drifted into a Coopernian, personal, who gives a damn about
>such details, story.
That's false and misleading. I have never discussed my bowel
movements in here. There's another group that I post to on that
subject.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s
Mark Wallace
I hope you post there in hermetically sealed containers.
mephisto
Not many, looks like!
mephisto
> Dena Jo <den...@csNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
> > fatte...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >> Hello, I was just wondering which, if any, of the following is
> >> the proper rendering in English of the Yiddish word: fercockt,
> >> facacta, fakacta, fakokta.
> >
> > Surprisingly, Leo Rosten doesn't include the word in "The Joys of
> > Yiddish"; however, I have another Yiddish dictionary by Arthur
> > Naiman, "Every Goy's Guide to Common Jewish Expressions" (much
> > better title than "The Joys of Yiddish," if you ask me, which you
> > didn't), [snip]
>
> I'm surprised Rosten didn't use either "The Goys of Yiddish" or "The
> Oys of Yiddish". Either would be better than the trite "Joys".
That's cuz the book IS trite.