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eating with fork tines up or down
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fabzorba
May 26, 2013, 3:50:28 AM5/26/13
to
WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
eating alone, but never in company.
I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
as devices to point and make gestures with.
But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
eating alone, but never in company.
I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
as devices to point and make gestures with.
But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
Ian Jackson
May 26, 2013, 7:11:37 AM5/26/13
to
In message
<a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1...@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
fabzorba <myles....@gmail.com> writes
Being brung up proper, I was taught that unless it was a last resort,
when eating with a knife and fork, you should to keep the tines down.
However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
them. I can't say I disagree with him.
--
Ian
<a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1...@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
fabzorba <myles....@gmail.com> writes
when eating with a knife and fork, you should to keep the tines down.
However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
them. I can't say I disagree with him.
--
Ian
Leslie Danks
May 26, 2013, 7:29:21 AM5/26/13
to
tines facing downwards - unless the nature of the food requires that the
fork be transferred to the other hand and used without the knife. I'm not
sure what the TDN (pronunciation copyright protected) (Tines Down Nazis)
have to say about spaghetti.
--
Les (BrE)
"... be skeptical of government guidelines. The Indians learned not to trust
our government and neither should you." (Fallon & Enig)
BDK
May 26, 2013, 10:06:24 AM5/26/13
to
In article <a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716bb3
@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, myles....@gmail.com says...
I have to admit, I've never heard of, or wondered about the tines
pointing up or down meaning anything. Even my friend whose mother ran a
charm school didn't say anything about it, and she obsessed over all
kinds of nonsense. One time, I got fed up with her nitpicking about her
son's and my "manners", and I just tossed the fork and knife on the
table and picked up my sreak with my hands and ate my entire meal that
way, staring at her the whole time. It was a huge hit with her family,
especially her husband, but she didn't like it too much. She called my
mom up and told her what I did, and my mother's response, "And?", didn't
go over too well either.
--
BDK- Head FUD-Master Blaster. Friend to all kOOkbashers.
@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, myles....@gmail.com says...
pointing up or down meaning anything. Even my friend whose mother ran a
charm school didn't say anything about it, and she obsessed over all
kinds of nonsense. One time, I got fed up with her nitpicking about her
son's and my "manners", and I just tossed the fork and knife on the
table and picked up my sreak with my hands and ate my entire meal that
way, staring at her the whole time. It was a huge hit with her family,
especially her husband, but she didn't like it too much. She called my
mom up and told her what I did, and my mother's response, "And?", didn't
go over too well either.
--
BDK- Head FUD-Master Blaster. Friend to all kOOkbashers.
Curlytop
May 26, 2013, 2:33:54 PM5/26/13
to
Ian Jackson set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:
> However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
> attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
> I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
> he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
> I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
> the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
> them. I can't say I disagree with him.
I too were brung up proper, so I set the fork whichever way up is
appropriate - tines up or down as required. Using a spoon to scoop up the
peas is a definite no-no though.
There was one occasion where I had to reverse the usual layout - after I had
broken my left arm. For a while I could not raise my left hand far enough
to reach my mouth, so I had to have the fork in my right hand and the knife
in my left. Very difficult to get used to the reverse movements at first
but I managed it. (Finger movements were unaffected by the injury, and full
use of my left arm was gradually restored.)
--
Îľ: ) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
continuum:
> However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
> attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
> I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
> he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
> I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
> the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
> them. I can't say I disagree with him.
appropriate - tines up or down as required. Using a spoon to scoop up the
peas is a definite no-no though.
There was one occasion where I had to reverse the usual layout - after I had
broken my left arm. For a while I could not raise my left hand far enough
to reach my mouth, so I had to have the fork in my right hand and the knife
in my left. Very difficult to get used to the reverse movements at first
but I managed it. (Finger movements were unaffected by the injury, and full
use of my left arm was gradually restored.)
--
Îľ: ) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Evan Kirshenbaum
May 26, 2013, 2:51:41 PM5/26/13
to
According to Petroski (_The Evolution of Useful Things_) the way that
Europeans and Americans treat forks has to do with what they did
before forks were introduced. In much of Europe, including the UK,
the practice was to eat with two knives, using one to hold the food
down while the other cut, and then using the first to bring the food
to the mouth. So when forks were introduced as a better second knife
(since the multiple tines meant that the food was less likely to twist
while cutting and the lack of a blade meant you were less likely to
cut your lips), it was held tines-down (to better stabilize) and it
remained in the non-cutting hand when bringing the food to the mouth
(as the second knife had).
In America, by contrast, the practice was to eat with a knife and
spoon, using the spoon to stabilize food (poorly) while cutting and
switching hands to scoop the cut food (or, apparently more commonly
there than in Europe, stew) and bring it to the mouth, because most
people have trouble either cutting or using a spoon with their off
hand. The fork was taken as a better spoon (since it could better
hold food when cutting, and you didn't need to push food onto it with
your knife), but the practice of changing hands and holding it convex
side up, as had been done with the spoon, remained.
Do Brits these days think of forks as more like spoons or more like
knives?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |ActiveX is pretty harmless anyway.
SF Bay Area (1982-) |It can't affect you unless you
Chicago (1964-1982) |install Windows, and who would be
|foolish enough to do that?
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Peter Moylan
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Skitt
May 26, 2013, 3:21:16 PM5/26/13
to
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
spoons. No knives are present. The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
instrument, when required.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html
spoons. No knives are present. The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
instrument, when required.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html
alien8er
May 26, 2013, 3:25:07 PM5/26/13
to
On May 26, 7:06Â am, BDK <Cont...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote:
> In article <a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716bb3
> @hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, myles.abzo...@gmail.com says...
> In article <a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716bb3
Interlaken, Switzerland (in the late 1960's) where she caught all
sorts of hell for being an American barbarian. She will recount at the
drop of a hat the Headmistress asking if she needed her roasted
chicken deboned so as not to have to eat it with her fingers, though
Female Friend successfully managed to use knife and fork on it all by
herself.
She did not mention the tines up/down distinction though and I don't
recall seeing her eat either way preferentially.
A little research shows that table forks were generally flat until
some 18th century German got the idea of curving them, before which
point they were called "split spoons". Farming forks (pitchforks etc.)
generally had curved tines since antiquity though so I'm wondering if
tines-up indicated one was a hayseed.
My family line has a high proportion of hayseeds, and I was taught
"fingers came before forks". Even my somewhat prissy Jehovah's Witness
aunt saw me, as a child, eating her (outstanding) fried chicken with
my fingers as a sign of great appreciation.
Anybody else remember sporks? Great idea efficiency-wise but they
never really caught on. Maybe it's because they're impossible to use
tines-down.
Dr. HotSalt
alien8er
May 26, 2013, 3:30:25 PM5/26/13
to
> > <a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716...@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
> > fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> writes
Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
things...
Dr. HotSalt
> > fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> writes
satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
things...
Dr. HotSalt
R H Draney
May 26, 2013, 4:33:16 PM5/26/13
to
Ian Jackson filted:
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
>attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
>I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
>he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
>I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
>the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
>them. I can't say I disagree with him.
Barbarians!...anyone with half a brain would know to use chopsticks....r
>However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
>attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
>I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
>he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
>I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
>the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
>them. I can't say I disagree with him.
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
R H Draney
May 26, 2013, 4:37:34 PM5/26/13
to
alien8er filted:
Circa 1980, a man named Howard Morris released a movie called "Gizmo!"
consisting of film clips of inventors from the 1920s through the early
1970s...when promoting the film, he was asked if he had noticed any ideas that
kept surfacing again and again while he scoured the archives...yes, he answered,
for some reason people keep trying to invent an automatic spaghetti fork....
The second most common idea was for an alarm clock that would force you out of
bed, whether by stripping away the bedclothes, tilting the bed to make you fall
out, or pouring water on your face....r
>
> Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
>satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
>with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
>things...
Oh, that hasn't been a mere parody for quite some time now....
> Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
>satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
>with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
>things...
Circa 1980, a man named Howard Morris released a movie called "Gizmo!"
consisting of film clips of inventors from the 1920s through the early
1970s...when promoting the film, he was asked if he had noticed any ideas that
kept surfacing again and again while he scoured the archives...yes, he answered,
for some reason people keep trying to invent an automatic spaghetti fork....
The second most common idea was for an alarm clock that would force you out of
bed, whether by stripping away the bedclothes, tilting the bed to make you fall
out, or pouring water on your face....r
Leslie Danks
May 26, 2013, 4:51:56 PM5/26/13
to
Dechucka
May 26, 2013, 5:48:08 PM5/26/13
to
"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kntnb7$fhv$1...@news.albasani.net...
to eat. The Chinese felt that getting guest to butcher their meat at the
table was not proper so it is cut into edible size pieces in the kitchen
hence chopsticks can be used
Robert Bannister
May 26, 2013, 9:51:42 PM5/26/13
to
--
Robert Bannister
cw...@gmx.net
May 27, 2013, 3:36:50 AM5/27/13
to
On Sun, 26 May 2013 00:50:28 -0700 (PDT), fabzorba
<myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>pierce, like peas. [---]
<myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
We French look upom the habit of eating peas with a tines-down fork as
a typically nonsensensical piece of British folklore.
Walter P. Zähl
May 27, 2013, 6:30:10 AM5/27/13
to
Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
> R H Draney wrote:
>
>> alien8er filted:
>>>
>>> Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
>>> satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
>>> with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
>>> things...
>>
>> Oh, that hasn't been a mere parody for quite some time now....
>>
>> Circa 1980, a man named Howard Morris released a movie called "Gizmo!"
>> consisting of film clips of inventors from the 1920s through the early
>> 1970s...when promoting the film, he was asked if he had noticed any ideas
>> that kept surfacing again and again while he scoured the archives...yes,
>> he answered, for some reason people keep trying to invent an automatic
>> spaghetti fork....
>>
>> The second most common idea was for an alarm clock that would force you
>> out of bed, whether by stripping away the bedclothes, tilting the bed to
>> make you fall out, or pouring water on your face....r
>>
> Or you could just get married.
Well, *my* wife knows how to get up in the morning without waking me up.
> R H Draney wrote:
>
>> alien8er filted:
>>>
>>> Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
>>> satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
>>> with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
>>> things...
>>
>> Oh, that hasn't been a mere parody for quite some time now....
>>
>> Circa 1980, a man named Howard Morris released a movie called "Gizmo!"
>> consisting of film clips of inventors from the 1920s through the early
>> 1970s...when promoting the film, he was asked if he had noticed any ideas
>> that kept surfacing again and again while he scoured the archives...yes,
>> he answered, for some reason people keep trying to invent an automatic
>> spaghetti fork....
>>
>> The second most common idea was for an alarm clock that would force you
>> out of bed, whether by stripping away the bedclothes, tilting the bed to
>> make you fall out, or pouring water on your face....r
>>
> Or you could just get married.
;-)
/Walter
Swedish Cook
May 27, 2013, 11:36:21 AM5/27/13
to
you as an American caveman.
No wonder you're having problems with peas and other stuff, besides
looking like five-year-olds who have just been given this strange
contraption and have no idea which way to grab it.
The Swedish cook
Tony Cooper
May 27, 2013, 3:32:48 PM5/27/13
to
On Mon, 27 May 2013 17:36:21 +0200, Swedish Cook <sc...@swe.cook.swe>
wrote:
>fabzorba wrote:
>> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
>> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
>> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
>> eating alone, but never in company.
>>
>> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
>> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
>> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
>> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
>> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
>> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
>> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
>> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
>> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
>> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
>> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>>
>> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>
>To anyone in Europe, using the fork tines down will immediately identify
>you as an American caveman.
An American caveman, eh? The only American cavemen I know about are
spelunkers. I wasn't aware that they take silverware into the
caverns.
>No wonder you're having problems with peas and other stuff, besides
>looking like five-year-olds who have just been given this strange
>contraption and have no idea which way to grab it.
>
>The Swedish cook
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
wrote:
>fabzorba wrote:
>> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
>> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
>> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
>> eating alone, but never in company.
>>
>> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
>> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
>> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
>> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
>> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
>> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
>> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
>> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
>> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
>> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
>> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>>
>> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>
>To anyone in Europe, using the fork tines down will immediately identify
>you as an American caveman.
spelunkers. I wasn't aware that they take silverware into the
caverns.
>No wonder you're having problems with peas and other stuff, besides
>looking like five-year-olds who have just been given this strange
>contraption and have no idea which way to grab it.
>
>The Swedish cook
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
Evan Kirshenbaum
May 27, 2013, 7:54:56 PM5/27/13
to
most Europeans) tend to use it tines down, this doesn't say much for
Europeans.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If only some crazy scientist
SF Bay Area (1982-) |somewhere would develop a device
Chicago (1964-1982) |that would allow us to change the
|channel on our televisions......
evan.kir...@gmail.com | --"lazarus"
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Adam Funk
May 28, 2013, 6:18:40 AM5/28/13
to
On 2013-05-26, fabzorba wrote:
> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> eating alone, but never in company.
>
> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
Is it a breach of etiquette to serve peas without some adhesive food
> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> eating alone, but never in company.
>
> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
at the same time?
--
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life. --- Sabine Baring-Gould
Adam Funk
May 28, 2013, 6:19:53 AM5/28/13
to
On 2013-05-26, BDK wrote:
> I have to admit, I've never heard of, or wondered about the tines
> pointing up or down meaning anything. Even my friend whose mother ran a
> charm school didn't say anything about it, and she obsessed over all
> kinds of nonsense. One time, I got fed up with her nitpicking about her
> son's and my "manners", and I just tossed the fork and knife on the
> table and picked up my sreak with my hands and ate my entire meal that
> way, staring at her the whole time. It was a huge hit with her family,
If it was good enough for mediaeval kings...
> I have to admit, I've never heard of, or wondered about the tines
> pointing up or down meaning anything. Even my friend whose mother ran a
> charm school didn't say anything about it, and she obsessed over all
> kinds of nonsense. One time, I got fed up with her nitpicking about her
> son's and my "manners", and I just tossed the fork and knife on the
> table and picked up my sreak with my hands and ate my entire meal that
> way, staring at her the whole time. It was a huge hit with her family,
--
Nam Sibbyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla
pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: beable beable beable; respondebat
illa: doidy doidy doidy. [plorkwort]
Adam Funk
May 28, 2013, 6:21:26 AM5/28/13
to
On 2013-05-26, alien8er wrote:
> A little research shows that table forks were generally flat until
> some 18th century German got the idea of curving them, before which
> point they were called "split spoons". Farming forks (pitchforks etc.)
> generally had curved tines since antiquity though so I'm wondering if
> tines-up indicated one was a hayseed.
...
> A little research shows that table forks were generally flat until
> some 18th century German got the idea of curving them, before which
> point they were called "split spoons". Farming forks (pitchforks etc.)
> generally had curved tines since antiquity though so I'm wondering if
> tines-up indicated one was a hayseed.
> Anybody else remember sporks? Great idea efficiency-wise but they
> never really caught on. Maybe it's because they're impossible to use
> tines-down.
I have several sporks for travel & picnics. I wonder what we'd call
> never really caught on. Maybe it's because they're impossible to use
> tines-down.
them if the "split spoons" name had persisted for forks ---
"semi-split spoons"?
--
The history of the world is the history of a privileged few.
--- Henry Miller
fabzorba
May 30, 2013, 2:39:00 AM5/30/13
to
than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
fork!
Trevor
May 30, 2013, 5:03:35 AM5/30/13
to
"fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:693bf298-1fc9-4d16...@mq5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
>I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
fork!
Far easier than using chopsticks IMO! Both can be made to work with
than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
fork!
experience of course, but the whole idea of having to learn how to eat with
unsuitable implements seems patently silly to me, even though I was brought
up with the 'always eat with tines down', different knives, forks, spoons
depending on the dish etc. All silly nonsense I'm glad is less rigidly
adhered to than it once was. Some people still prefer to eat a hot dog,
hamburger or fried chicken with knife and fork though, but at least they now
find it hard to convince everyone else to follow suit.
Trevor.
Peter Brooks
May 30, 2013, 5:28:48 AM5/30/13
to
On May 30, 11:03Â am, "Trevor" <tre...@home.net> wrote:
> "fabzorba" <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
One of the things that I enjoyed about the two months that I spent in
South Korea was learning how to be adept with their metal chopsticks -
they're more difficult than wooden or plastic ones by quite a bit. In
the end I was able to eat rice with ease using them and even do pretty
well with noodle soup.
I brought a pair home with me so that I could continue to exercise my
new-found skill and I use them quite often.
Of course, apart from the politeness involved in using them at the
time, there's not much point to having this achievement, this doesn't
prevent it being a pleasing thing to have achieved and a skill I enjoy
exercising just for fun.
> "fabzorba" <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
South Korea was learning how to be adept with their metal chopsticks -
they're more difficult than wooden or plastic ones by quite a bit. In
the end I was able to eat rice with ease using them and even do pretty
well with noodle soup.
I brought a pair home with me so that I could continue to exercise my
new-found skill and I use them quite often.
Of course, apart from the politeness involved in using them at the
time, there's not much point to having this achievement, this doesn't
prevent it being a pleasing thing to have achieved and a skill I enjoy
exercising just for fun.
Trevor
May 30, 2013, 5:39:10 AM5/30/13
to
"Peter Brooks" <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:899eed3a-7028-495f...@w5g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
One of the things that I enjoyed about the two months that I spent in
South Korea was learning how to be adept with their metal chopsticks -
they're more difficult than wooden or plastic ones by quite a bit. In
the end I was able to eat rice with ease using them and even do pretty
well with noodle soup.
I brought a pair home with me so that I could continue to exercise my
new-found skill and I use them quite often.
Of course, apart from the politeness involved in using them at the
time, there's not much point to having this achievement, this doesn't
prevent it being a pleasing thing to have achieved and a skill I enjoy
exercising just for fun.
-----------------------------------
South Korea was learning how to be adept with their metal chopsticks -
they're more difficult than wooden or plastic ones by quite a bit. In
the end I was able to eat rice with ease using them and even do pretty
well with noodle soup.
I brought a pair home with me so that I could continue to exercise my
new-found skill and I use them quite often.
Of course, apart from the politeness involved in using them at the
time, there's not much point to having this achievement, this doesn't
prevent it being a pleasing thing to have achieved and a skill I enjoy
exercising just for fun.
Yes mastering a difficult skill can sometimes be satisfying, despite being
totally pointless. Other times its just a pain in the proverbial.
Trevor.
Adam Funk
May 30, 2013, 6:00:59 AM5/30/13
to
suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
well in clumps).
--
Disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld about bombing anybody who gets in our
way is not a crime in this country. It is a wise and honorable idea
that George Washington and Benjamin Franklin risked their lives for.
--- Hunter S Thompson
Ian Jackson
May 30, 2013, 8:10:48 AM5/30/13
to
In message <rjkj7ax...@news.ducksburg.com>, Adam Funk
<a24...@ducksburg.com> writes
raised to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
--
Ian
<a24...@ducksburg.com> writes
>On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>>> spoons. Â No knives are present. Â The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>>> instrument, when required.
>>>
>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>> fork!
>
>
>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>well in clumps).
>
And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is
>
>> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>>> spoons. Â No knives are present. Â The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>>> instrument, when required.
>>>
>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>> fork!
>
>
>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>well in clumps).
>
raised to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
--
Ian
CDB
May 30, 2013, 8:36:18 AM5/30/13
to
On 30/05/2013 5:03 AM, Trevor wrote:
the hotel terrace where I was having breakfast and saw one of the
delegates eating his buttered toast with knife and fork. From Tuvalu, I
think.
> "fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less
>> sensible
> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it
> does work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a
> tine-down fork!
> Far easier than using chopsticks IMO! Both can be made to work with
> experience of course, but the whole idea of having to learn how to
> eat with unsuitable implements seems patently silly to me, even
> though I was brought up with the 'always eat with tines down',
> different knives, forks, spoons depending on the dish etc. All silly
> nonsense I'm glad is less rigidly adhered to than it once was. Some
> people still prefer to eat a hot dog, hamburger or fried chicken with
> knife and fork though, but at least they now find it hard to convince
> everyone else to follow suit.
Once when I was making myself useful at a conference, I looked across
>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less
>> sensible
> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it
> does work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a
> tine-down fork!
> Far easier than using chopsticks IMO! Both can be made to work with
> experience of course, but the whole idea of having to learn how to
> eat with unsuitable implements seems patently silly to me, even
> though I was brought up with the 'always eat with tines down',
> different knives, forks, spoons depending on the dish etc. All silly
> nonsense I'm glad is less rigidly adhered to than it once was. Some
> people still prefer to eat a hot dog, hamburger or fried chicken with
> knife and fork though, but at least they now find it hard to convince
> everyone else to follow suit.
the hotel terrace where I was having breakfast and saw one of the
delegates eating his buttered toast with knife and fork. From Tuvalu, I
think.
Adam Funk
May 30, 2013, 9:00:18 AM5/30/13
to
--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-ÂŁ999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Verity Stob)
Peter Brooks
May 30, 2013, 9:53:22 AM5/30/13
to
On May 30, 2:10Â pm, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <rjkj7axr4b....@news.ducksburg.com>, Adam Funk
'Chop-sticked', 'chopped' or 'conveyed', rather than 'shovelled', I'd
have thought - shovelling would involve a spoon of shovel-like design
or proportions.
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <rjkj7axr4b....@news.ducksburg.com>, Adam Funk
have thought - shovelling would involve a spoon of shovel-like design
or proportions.
Evan Kirshenbaum
May 30, 2013, 12:35:34 PM5/30/13
to
"Trevor" <tre...@home.net> writes:
> "fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:693bf298-1fc9-4d16...@mq5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
>>I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>>than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>>with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it
>>does work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a
>>tine-down fork!
If you see chopsticks in a Thai restaurant, it will be because they
> "fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:693bf298-1fc9-4d16...@mq5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
>>I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>>than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>>with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it
>>does work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a
>>tine-down fork!
think that locals expect all Asians to use them. They are a spoon
culture.
> Far easier than using chopsticks IMO! Both can be made to work with
> experience of course,
grew up using her hand (with food designed to be eaten that way), who
talked about how difficult and unnatural she found it, as a teenager,
to learn to use a fork and knife.
I never even tried using chopsticks until I was in my late teens, and
I didn't get comfortable enough with them to eat a meal until I was in
my 20s. Now I can't imagine them not feeling perfectly normal. My
14-year-old son first started using "training chopsticks" in
restaurants when he was about four or five, and by the time he was ten
or so stopped asking for a fork.
We watched _Mythbusters_ last night, and they were testing whether
males and females throw differently[1]. At one point they mentioned
that (unlike the professional pitcher they brought in) none of their
subjects had actually received any training in how to throw. My
reaction was "They may not have actually had formal pitching lessons,
but all of the boys--and fewer of the girls--almost certainly *were*
actually taught to throw". I taught enough boys and girls how to
throw to know that it really is an explicit teaching process
(modelling, molding, critiquing, making adjustments), but it happens
early enough that most people can't remember it happening. The same
thing happens with skills like using a fork or chopsticks if it's done
early enough. It just becomes the most natural thing in the world, to
the extent that you find it hard to believe that it ever wasn't.
> but the whole idea of having to learn how to eat with unsuitable
> implements seems patently silly to me, even though I was brought up
> with the 'always eat with tines down', different knives, forks,
> spoons depending on the dish etc. All silly nonsense I'm glad is
> less rigidly adhered to than it once was. Some people still prefer
> to eat a hot dog, hamburger or fried chicken with knife and fork
> though, but at least they now find it hard to convince everyone else
> to follow suit.
throw with their off hands, at which point the differences
disappeared. When I started coaching, they made us run through
all the drills with our off hands so that we could remind
ourselves of what it felt like before somebody showed us how to do
things we'd been doing without thinking about them for decades.
Because that's what it was going to feel like to the little kids
we were going to have to teach how to throw, catch, and hit.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Well, if you can't believe what you
SF Bay Area (1982-) |read in a comic book, what can you
Chicago (1964-1982) |believe?!
| Bullwinkle J. Moose
evan.kir...@gmail.com
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Robert Bannister
May 30, 2013, 9:19:58 PM5/30/13
to
On 31/05/13 12:35 AM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> I never even tried using chopsticks until I was in my late teens, and
> I didn't get comfortable enough with them to eat a meal until I was in
> my 20s. Now I can't imagine them not feeling perfectly normal. My
> 14-year-old son first started using "training chopsticks" in
> restaurants when he was about four or five, and by the time he was ten
> or so stopped asking for a fork.
At one stage, about 30 years ago, I used to eat out a lot and I still
> I never even tried using chopsticks until I was in my late teens, and
> I didn't get comfortable enough with them to eat a meal until I was in
> my 20s. Now I can't imagine them not feeling perfectly normal. My
> 14-year-old son first started using "training chopsticks" in
> restaurants when he was about four or five, and by the time he was ten
> or so stopped asking for a fork.
liked Chinese food, so I forced myself to become expert with chopsticks.
These days, I rarely eat out, or if I do it is Indian or Thai food which
always comes with knife, fork and spoon. I'm afraid that if I tried to
take up chopsticks now, I would find the appropriate muscles had atrophied.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 30, 2013, 9:21:55 PM5/30/13
to
On 30/05/13 6:00 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>>> spoons. No knives are present. The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>>> instrument, when required.
>>>
>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>> fork!
>
>
> AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
> suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
> well in clumps).
Have you watched Chinese people eat? They will pick up whole crabs in
> On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>>> spoons. No knives are present. The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>>> instrument, when required.
>>>
>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>> fork!
>
>
> AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
> suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
> well in clumps).
their chopsticks and bite bits off. It's fork-only cultures that can be
guaranteed to serve you bite-sized food.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 30, 2013, 9:22:35 PM5/30/13
to
--
Robert Bannister
Tony Cooper
May 30, 2013, 9:33:36 PM5/30/13
to
On Thu, 30 May 2013 09:35:34 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>We watched _Mythbusters_ last night, and they were testing whether
>males and females throw differently[1]. At one point they mentioned
>that (unlike the professional pitcher they brought in) none of their
>subjects had actually received any training in how to throw. My
>reaction was "They may not have actually had formal pitching lessons,
>but all of the boys--and fewer of the girls--almost certainly *were*
>actually taught to throw". I taught enough boys and girls how to
>throw to know that it really is an explicit teaching process
>(modelling, molding, critiquing, making adjustments), but it happens
>early enough that most people can't remember it happening.
What I observed watching my two grandsons in their first year of
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>We watched _Mythbusters_ last night, and they were testing whether
>males and females throw differently[1]. At one point they mentioned
>that (unlike the professional pitcher they brought in) none of their
>subjects had actually received any training in how to throw. My
>reaction was "They may not have actually had formal pitching lessons,
>but all of the boys--and fewer of the girls--almost certainly *were*
>actually taught to throw". I taught enough boys and girls how to
>throw to know that it really is an explicit teaching process
>(modelling, molding, critiquing, making adjustments), but it happens
>early enough that most people can't remember it happening.
organized (Babe Ruth) baseball was that the youngsters who had not
been given throwing lessons prior to playing is that the natural
motion is almost side-arm...what is often described as "throwing like
a girl".
Evan Kirshenbaum
May 30, 2013, 9:43:28 PM5/30/13
to
Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes:
> In message <61y04e...@gmail.com>
> females in the off-hand test, despite having been less accurate on
> the on-hand test.
There's no way any of their numerical differences were at all
significant. They were averaging speeds from a 24-year-old and a
7-year-old for God's sake! And they only had a single subject for
each sex for each age group. I was looking at form.
>> When I started coaching, they made us run through
>> all the drills with our off hands so that we could remind
>> ourselves of what it felt like before somebody showed us how to do
>> things we'd been doing without thinking about them for decades.
>> Because that's what it was going to feel like to the little kids
>> we were going to have to teach how to throw, catch, and hit.
>
> I liked the fact they described a good throw as being like a dance move,
> because that is exactly what it is. A good throw uses the entire body.
As someone who specialized in fielding (including throwing and
catching), I can say that there was one person they showed whose
throwing didn't make me wince. (Yes, it was the pro. And yes, that
includes the softball player.) All the rest had me wanting to say,
"Here's what you need to do, and it will work so much better". Not
that I don't see a lot of junior high and high school players that
make me react the same way.
One of my favorite mementos is a card from the four (5- and
6-year-old) girls on the first team I coached that read "Thanks, Coach
Evan, for teaching us how to not throw like girls".
Point with your glove at the target. Show the midget. Feed the
giant. Step with your glove foot. Throw. It's amazing how many
people either never got shown correctly or forgot. And how many good
young athletes coast by on strength and reflexes doing things sub-
optimally and still being better than their peers...until they reach a
level where they can't anymore and they have to break their bad
habits.
But I don't kid myself that throwing well is anything but a very
unnatural motion. And one which, at the extremes that pitchers take
it to, is past the body's tolerances. There's a reason the "throws
like a girl" motion is the way it is and why it's the first one kids
try. It's natural and fits the way the body is designed. You don't
have to stretch for it, and you can do it all day without getting
sore.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It's like grasping the difference
SF Bay Area (1982-) |between what one usually considers
Chicago (1964-1982) |a 'difficult' problem, and what
|*is* a difficult problem. The day
evan.kir...@gmail.com |one understands *why* counting all
|the molecules in the Universe isn't
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |difficult...there's the leap.
| Tina Marie Holmboe
> In message <61y04e...@gmail.com>
> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [1] They found the expected differences until they asked people to
>> throw with their off hands, at which point the differences
>> disappeared.
>
> Not exactly. Interestingly, the males were more accurate than the
>> [1] They found the expected differences until they asked people to
>> throw with their off hands, at which point the differences
>> disappeared.
>
> females in the off-hand test, despite having been less accurate on
> the on-hand test.
There's no way any of their numerical differences were at all
significant. They were averaging speeds from a 24-year-old and a
7-year-old for God's sake! And they only had a single subject for
each sex for each age group. I was looking at form.
>> When I started coaching, they made us run through
>> all the drills with our off hands so that we could remind
>> ourselves of what it felt like before somebody showed us how to do
>> things we'd been doing without thinking about them for decades.
>> Because that's what it was going to feel like to the little kids
>> we were going to have to teach how to throw, catch, and hit.
>
> because that is exactly what it is. A good throw uses the entire body.
As someone who specialized in fielding (including throwing and
catching), I can say that there was one person they showed whose
throwing didn't make me wince. (Yes, it was the pro. And yes, that
includes the softball player.) All the rest had me wanting to say,
"Here's what you need to do, and it will work so much better". Not
that I don't see a lot of junior high and high school players that
make me react the same way.
One of my favorite mementos is a card from the four (5- and
6-year-old) girls on the first team I coached that read "Thanks, Coach
Evan, for teaching us how to not throw like girls".
Point with your glove at the target. Show the midget. Feed the
giant. Step with your glove foot. Throw. It's amazing how many
people either never got shown correctly or forgot. And how many good
young athletes coast by on strength and reflexes doing things sub-
optimally and still being better than their peers...until they reach a
level where they can't anymore and they have to break their bad
habits.
But I don't kid myself that throwing well is anything but a very
unnatural motion. And one which, at the extremes that pitchers take
it to, is past the body's tolerances. There's a reason the "throws
like a girl" motion is the way it is and why it's the first one kids
try. It's natural and fits the way the body is designed. You don't
have to stretch for it, and you can do it all day without getting
sore.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It's like grasping the difference
SF Bay Area (1982-) |between what one usually considers
Chicago (1964-1982) |a 'difficult' problem, and what
|*is* a difficult problem. The day
evan.kir...@gmail.com |one understands *why* counting all
|the molecules in the Universe isn't
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |difficult...there's the leap.
| Tina Marie Holmboe
Robert Bannister
May 30, 2013, 11:19:50 PM5/30/13
to
not from the side, but throwing from the elbow instead of the shoulder.
Fortunately, real girls have progressed from the time when I was a kid
although some of the Asian girls need lessons in both throwing and running.
--
Robert Bannister
R H Draney
May 31, 2013, 3:36:39 AM5/31/13
to
Lewis filted:
>
>I use chopsticks a lot, not just for "asian" foods, but for a large
>variety of foods, including things like bratwurst, hotdogs, meatballs,
>and when I feel like showing off, Jello (if it's been cut up into
>cubes). I prefer them, for 'nugget' sized foods, to a fork.
Buttered popcorn...best way in the world to keep from getting your fingers
greasy....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>I use chopsticks a lot, not just for "asian" foods, but for a large
>variety of foods, including things like bratwurst, hotdogs, meatballs,
>and when I feel like showing off, Jello (if it's been cut up into
>cubes). I prefer them, for 'nugget' sized foods, to a fork.
Buttered popcorn...best way in the world to keep from getting your fingers
greasy....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Adam Funk
May 31, 2013, 5:08:14 AM5/31/13
to
everything I was served was either spoon-oriented, bite-sized, or
already on a stick.
--
There's a statute of limitations with the law, but not with
your wife. [Ray Magliozzi, Car Talk 2011-36]
BDK
May 31, 2013, 9:35:30 AM5/31/13
to
In article <slrnkqfsud....@jaka.local>,
g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies says...
> to use a fork and knife properly, as you can see from any child who is
> struggling to cut food. Heck, even my teenager has trouble cutting food
> with a knife and fork, either sawing ineffectively, or bludgeoning the
> food with a hard-pressed knife.
> developed a dislike for the generic bamboo ones some restaurants have to
> the point he will only use plastic "ivory" ones or metal ones, or
> shellacked wooden ones.
> with a knife and fork. I thought this was a joke until I saw it.
It was a joke, on Seinfeld.
>
> > [1] They found the expected differences until they asked people to
> > throw with their off hands, at which point the differences
> > disappeared.
>
BDK- Head FUD-Master Blaster. Friend to all kOOkbashers.
g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies says...
> > "Trevor" <tre...@home.net> writes:
>
> >> "fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:693bf298-1fc9-4d16...@mq5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
> >>>I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
> >>>than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
> >>>with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it
> >>>does work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a
> >>>tine-down fork!
>
> > If you see chopsticks in a Thai restaurant, it will be because they
> > think that locals expect all Asians to use them. They are a spoon
> > culture.
>
>
> >> "fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:693bf298-1fc9-4d16...@mq5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
> >>>I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
> >>>than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
> >>>with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it
> >>>does work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a
> >>>tine-down fork!
>
> > If you see chopsticks in a Thai restaurant, it will be because they
> > think that locals expect all Asians to use them. They are a spoon
> > culture.
>
> I use chopsticks a lot, not just for "asian" foods, but for a large
> variety of foods, including things like bratwurst, hotdogs, meatballs,
> and when I feel like showing off, Jello (if it's been cut up into
> cubes). I prefer them, for 'nugget' sized foods, to a fork.
>
> variety of foods, including things like bratwurst, hotdogs, meatballs,
> and when I feel like showing off, Jello (if it's been cut up into
> cubes). I prefer them, for 'nugget' sized foods, to a fork.
>
> >> Far easier than using chopsticks IMO! Both can be made to work with
> >> experience of course,
>
> > I'm reminded at this juncture of an co-worker from southern India, who
> > grew up using her hand (with food designed to be eaten that way), who
> > talked about how difficult and unnatural she found it, as a teenager,
> > to learn to use a fork and knife.
>
> I can imagine, there's a fairly complicated series of movements required
> >> experience of course,
>
> > I'm reminded at this juncture of an co-worker from southern India, who
> > grew up using her hand (with food designed to be eaten that way), who
> > talked about how difficult and unnatural she found it, as a teenager,
> > to learn to use a fork and knife.
>
> to use a fork and knife properly, as you can see from any child who is
> struggling to cut food. Heck, even my teenager has trouble cutting food
> with a knife and fork, either sawing ineffectively, or bludgeoning the
> food with a hard-pressed knife.
>
> > I never even tried using chopsticks until I was in my late teens, and
> > I didn't get comfortable enough with them to eat a meal until I was in
> > my 20s. Now I can't imagine them not feeling perfectly normal. My
> > 14-year-old son first started using "training chopsticks" in
> > restaurants when he was about four or five, and by the time he was ten
> > or so stopped asking for a fork.
>
> My kids both are quite capable with chopsticks, thogh the youngest has
> > I never even tried using chopsticks until I was in my late teens, and
> > I didn't get comfortable enough with them to eat a meal until I was in
> > my 20s. Now I can't imagine them not feeling perfectly normal. My
> > 14-year-old son first started using "training chopsticks" in
> > restaurants when he was about four or five, and by the time he was ten
> > or so stopped asking for a fork.
>
> developed a dislike for the generic bamboo ones some restaurants have to
> the point he will only use plastic "ivory" ones or metal ones, or
> shellacked wooden ones.
>
> > We watched _Mythbusters_ last night, and they were testing whether
> > males and females throw differently[1]. At one point they mentioned
> > that (unlike the professional pitcher they brought in) none of their
> > subjects had actually received any training in how to throw. My
> > reaction was "They may not have actually had formal pitching lessons,
> > but all of the boys--and fewer of the girls--almost certainly *were*
> > actually taught to throw". I taught enough boys and girls how to
> > throw to know that it really is an explicit teaching process
> > (modelling, molding, critiquing, making adjustments), but it happens
> > early enough that most people can't remember it happening. The same
> > thing happens with skills like using a fork or chopsticks if it's done
> > early enough. It just becomes the most natural thing in the world, to
> > the extent that you find it hard to believe that it ever wasn't.
>
> Yep.
> > We watched _Mythbusters_ last night, and they were testing whether
> > males and females throw differently[1]. At one point they mentioned
> > that (unlike the professional pitcher they brought in) none of their
> > subjects had actually received any training in how to throw. My
> > reaction was "They may not have actually had formal pitching lessons,
> > but all of the boys--and fewer of the girls--almost certainly *were*
> > actually taught to throw". I taught enough boys and girls how to
> > throw to know that it really is an explicit teaching process
> > (modelling, molding, critiquing, making adjustments), but it happens
> > early enough that most people can't remember it happening. The same
> > thing happens with skills like using a fork or chopsticks if it's done
> > early enough. It just becomes the most natural thing in the world, to
> > the extent that you find it hard to believe that it ever wasn't.
>
>
> >> but the whole idea of having to learn how to eat with unsuitable
> >> implements seems patently silly to me, even though I was brought up
> >> with the 'always eat with tines down', different knives, forks,
> >> spoons depending on the dish etc. All silly nonsense I'm glad is
> >> less rigidly adhered to than it once was. Some people still prefer
> >> to eat a hot dog, hamburger or fried chicken with knife and fork
> >> though, but at least they now find it hard to convince everyone else
> >> to follow suit.
>
> What boggles me is the people who eat candy bars or oranges and apples
> >> but the whole idea of having to learn how to eat with unsuitable
> >> implements seems patently silly to me, even though I was brought up
> >> with the 'always eat with tines down', different knives, forks,
> >> spoons depending on the dish etc. All silly nonsense I'm glad is
> >> less rigidly adhered to than it once was. Some people still prefer
> >> to eat a hot dog, hamburger or fried chicken with knife and fork
> >> though, but at least they now find it hard to convince everyone else
> >> to follow suit.
>
> with a knife and fork. I thought this was a joke until I saw it.
It was a joke, on Seinfeld.
>
> > [1] They found the expected differences until they asked people to
> > throw with their off hands, at which point the differences
> > disappeared.
>
> Not exactly. Interestingly, the males were more accurate than the females in the off-hand test, despite having been less accurate on the on-hand test.
>
>
> > When I started coaching, they made us run through
> > all the drills with our off hands so that we could remind
> > ourselves of what it felt like before somebody showed us how to do
> > things we'd been doing without thinking about them for decades.
> > Because that's what it was going to feel like to the little kids
> > we were going to have to teach how to throw, catch, and hit.
>
> > all the drills with our off hands so that we could remind
> > ourselves of what it felt like before somebody showed us how to do
> > things we'd been doing without thinking about them for decades.
> > Because that's what it was going to feel like to the little kids
> > we were going to have to teach how to throw, catch, and hit.
>
> I liked the fact they described a good throw as being like a dance move,
> because that is exactly what it is. A good throw uses the entire body.
--
> because that is exactly what it is. A good throw uses the entire body.
BDK- Head FUD-Master Blaster. Friend to all kOOkbashers.
Evan Kirshenbaum
May 31, 2013, 10:55:08 AM5/31/13
to
Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
> On 31/05/13 9:33 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 May 2013 09:35:34 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
>> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We watched _Mythbusters_ last night, and they were testing whether
>>> males and females throw differently[1]. At one point they
>>> mentioned that (unlike the professional pitcher they brought in)
>>> none of their subjects had actually received any training in how
>>> to throw. My reaction was "They may not have actually had formal
>>> pitching lessons, but all of the boys--and fewer of the
>>> girls--almost certainly *were* actually taught to throw". I
>>> taught enough boys and girls how to throw to know that it really
>>> is an explicit teaching process (modelling, molding, critiquing,
>>> making adjustments), but it happens early enough that most people
>>> can't remember it happening.
>>
>> What I observed watching my two grandsons in their first year of
>> organized (Babe Ruth) baseball was that the youngsters who had not
>> been given throwing lessons prior to playing is that the natural
>> motion is almost side-arm...what is often described as "throwing
>> like a girl".
>
> I have discovered that I throw like a girl these days, but that
> means not from the side, but throwing from the elbow instead of the
> shoulder.
That's it. Start with the ball near (possibly behind) the shoulder,
> On 31/05/13 9:33 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 May 2013 09:35:34 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
>> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We watched _Mythbusters_ last night, and they were testing whether
>>> males and females throw differently[1]. At one point they
>>> mentioned that (unlike the professional pitcher they brought in)
>>> none of their subjects had actually received any training in how
>>> to throw. My reaction was "They may not have actually had formal
>>> pitching lessons, but all of the boys--and fewer of the
>>> girls--almost certainly *were* actually taught to throw". I
>>> taught enough boys and girls how to throw to know that it really
>>> is an explicit teaching process (modelling, molding, critiquing,
>>> making adjustments), but it happens early enough that most people
>>> can't remember it happening.
>>
>> What I observed watching my two grandsons in their first year of
>> organized (Babe Ruth) baseball was that the youngsters who had not
>> been given throwing lessons prior to playing is that the natural
>> motion is almost side-arm...what is often described as "throwing
>> like a girl".
>
> I have discovered that I throw like a girl these days, but that
> means not from the side, but throwing from the elbow instead of the
> shoulder.
palm up, extend the arm to palm down, rotating at the elbow. Body
essentially vertical. Either no step or step with the throwing
foot[1] with no rotation of the body.
> Fortunately, real girls have progressed from the time when I was a
> kid although some of the Asian girls need lessons in both throwing
> and running.
left foot instead of the right" or expecting them to know they had
to reverse everything they heard[2], so now, when addressing a
group, you speak of the "throwing hand" and "glove hand". (For
batting, "top hand" and "bottom hand".) This generalizes to
"throwing side" and "glove side" and, somewhat bizarrely,
"throwing foot" and "glove foot". Made more bizarre because when
throwing, you step with your glove foot, not your throwing foot.
[2] Which is apparently internalized very early. I remember my very
athletic and coordinated left-handed nephew, when he was about
three, watching someone doing the trick of throwing a large ball
out with backspin so that it would bounce back to him. He tried
it and got very upset when the ball bounced away instead. He
clearly understood what he was seeing and was reversing it, but he
hadn't realized that there were some things that were the same no
matter what your dominant hand was.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It's gotten to the point where the
SF Bay Area (1982-) |only place you can get work done is
Chicago (1964-1982) |at home, because no one bugs you,
|and the best place to entertain
evan.kir...@gmail.com |yourself is at work, because the
|Internet connections are faster.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Scott Adams
Oliver Cromm
May 31, 2013, 12:48:46 PM5/31/13
to
* R H Draney:
My son has taken to using chopsticks for potato chips. for similar
reasons.
--
Humans write software and while a piece of software might be
bug free humans are not. - Robert Klemme
reasons.
--
Humans write software and while a piece of software might be
bug free humans are not. - Robert Klemme
R H Draney
May 31, 2013, 1:53:24 PM5/31/13
to
Oliver Cromm filted:
otherwise turn your hands orange....r
>
>* R H Draney:
>
>> Lewis filted:
>>>
>>>I use chopsticks a lot, not just for "asian" foods, but for a large
>>>variety of foods, including things like bratwurst, hotdogs, meatballs,
>>>and when I feel like showing off, Jello (if it's been cut up into
>>>cubes). I prefer them, for 'nugget' sized foods, to a fork.
>>
>> Buttered popcorn...best way in the world to keep from getting your fingers
>> greasy....r
>
>My son has taken to using chopsticks for potato chips. for similar
>reasons.
It occurs to me that they'd also be ideal for eating those cheese puffs that
>* R H Draney:
>
>> Lewis filted:
>>>
>>>I use chopsticks a lot, not just for "asian" foods, but for a large
>>>variety of foods, including things like bratwurst, hotdogs, meatballs,
>>>and when I feel like showing off, Jello (if it's been cut up into
>>>cubes). I prefer them, for 'nugget' sized foods, to a fork.
>>
>> Buttered popcorn...best way in the world to keep from getting your fingers
>> greasy....r
>
>My son has taken to using chopsticks for potato chips. for similar
>reasons.
otherwise turn your hands orange....r
John Varela
May 31, 2013, 2:40:30 PM5/31/13
to
[AEU and AUE only]
On Fri, 31 May 2013 03:19:50 UTC, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> I have discovered that I throw like a girl these days, but that means
> not from the side, but throwing from the elbow instead of the shoulder.
That's my understanding of what "throw like a girl" means.
--
John Varela
On Fri, 31 May 2013 03:19:50 UTC, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> I have discovered that I throw like a girl these days, but that means
> not from the side, but throwing from the elbow instead of the shoulder.
--
John Varela
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Trevor
Jun 1, 2013, 2:12:10 AM6/1/13
to
"Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote in message
news:slrnkqf7qc....@jaka.local...
> Please use a client that quotes properly.
Please do whatever you wish, net nazi's have no control over usenet however
hard they try.
Trevor.
Trevor
Jun 1, 2013, 2:12:40 AM6/1/13
to
"Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:RnKtSrDI...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>well in clumps).
The idea that food should be made suitable for unsuitable implements is
>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>well in clumps).
rather a nonsense AFAIC.
> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is raised
> to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
that supply finger bowls and napkins even more so.
Trevor.
CDB
Jun 1, 2013, 8:02:06 AM6/1/13
to
On 01/06/2013 2:12 AM, Trevor wrote:
> "Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> Please use a client that quotes properly.
> Please do whatever you wish, net nazi's have no control over usenet however
> hard they try.
"Lurker's apostrophe". Not fair, I suppose. Trezza is probably a
member in good standing of that other group.
> "Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> Please use a client that quotes properly.
> Please do whatever you wish, net nazi's have no control over usenet however
> hard they try.
member in good standing of that other group.
BDK
Jun 1, 2013, 9:58:19 AM6/1/13
to
In article <slrnkqik1j....@mgb.local>,
g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies says...
>
> In message <MPG.2c127128...@news.giganews.com>
> Yes, but I have seen a co-ed eat oranges and candy bars with a knife and
> fork. Maybe she saw Seinfeld and thought it was a good idea?
Could be. Lots of people do some very weird stuff. I know a woman who
eats an orange like an apple, wasting about 1/3ed of it.
g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies says...
>
> In message <MPG.2c127128...@news.giganews.com>
> fork. Maybe she saw Seinfeld and thought it was a good idea?
Could be. Lots of people do some very weird stuff. I know a woman who
eats an orange like an apple, wasting about 1/3ed of it.
Whiskers
Jun 1, 2013, 9:49:37 AM6/1/13
to
to appreciate their food while at the same time reducing the amount that
can be eaten in a given time? I can't think of anything that can be eaten
with chopsticks that couldn't be eaten at least as easily using a spoon, so
perhaps their unsuitability is their very purpose. Add a few millenias'
worth of cultural accretion and people are using them because 'that is who
we are' or 'how else can one eat?'. Elegant and effective use of
chopsticks is an accomplishment that differentiates the child from the
adult, and the cultured civilised person from the uncouth barbarian, so the
chopstick user can feel superior at the same time as making best use of a
limited food and fuel supply.
There was a "tiny fork diet" being promoted not long ago, based on the idea
that smaller amounts on each trip to the mouth would lead to smaller
amounts overall and so less weight gain. Chopsticks seem to achieve that
even more effectively, as it takes considerable dexterity to transport
anything at all to the mouth.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Message has been deleted
Percival
Jun 1, 2013, 4:47:51 PM6/1/13
to
predecessors) grew their fingernails very long to display the fact that
they did no manual labor. Since at the time most people ate with their
fingers, the emperors had to use their nails. Courtiers who weren't
allowed to grow their nails out invented (or took up) using sticks to
emulate the alleged elegance the emperor displayed and it caught on with
the general population.
I don't know if there's any truth to it but it sounds reasonable.
Dr. HotSalt
Walter P. Zähl
Jun 1, 2013, 5:33:21 PM6/1/13
to
say 10 inches.
Rather unlikely these could work as chopsticks.
/Walter
Frank S
Jun 1, 2013, 9:27:41 PM6/1/13
to
"BDK" <Con...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2c13c8051...@news.giganews.com...
from Canada: presented with a bag of baseball-stadium peanuts, he
started popping them into his mouth, direct from the bag, and crunching
away with exaggerated relish. I pointed out that as far as I knew the
usual practice was to break the shells and eat the seeds found therein,
discarding the hulls to the floor. He said he might try that, but so far
he liked them complete.
He grew up to be a Clinical Psychologist.
--
Frank ess
R H Draney
Jun 2, 2013, 12:05:19 AM6/2/13
to
Frank S filted:
bag of peanuts, fried "shells and all", and apparently meant to be eaten the
same way....r
>
>One of the weird stuffs I saw was an adolescent immigrant to California
>from Canada: presented with a bag of baseball-stadium peanuts, he
>started popping them into his mouth, direct from the bag, and crunching
>away with exaggerated relish. I pointed out that as far as I knew the
>usual practice was to break the shells and eat the seeds found therein,
>discarding the hulls to the floor. He said he might try that, but so far
>he liked them complete.
>
>He grew up to be a Clinical Psychologist.
I haven't quite worked up the nerve to try them yet, but I have in the kitchen a
>One of the weird stuffs I saw was an adolescent immigrant to California
>from Canada: presented with a bag of baseball-stadium peanuts, he
>started popping them into his mouth, direct from the bag, and crunching
>away with exaggerated relish. I pointed out that as far as I knew the
>usual practice was to break the shells and eat the seeds found therein,
>discarding the hulls to the floor. He said he might try that, but so far
>he liked them complete.
>
>He grew up to be a Clinical Psychologist.
bag of peanuts, fried "shells and all", and apparently meant to be eaten the
same way....r
Tony Cooper
Jun 2, 2013, 12:53:32 AM6/2/13
to
place down here...roadside stands, convenience stores, and even at the
concession stand at the park where my grandchildren play baseball.
They are eaten, shell and all.
I've tried them, and find them disgusting. My son, though, likes
them...especially the spicy ones.
Message has been deleted
Tony Cooper
Jun 2, 2013, 10:39:47 AM6/2/13
to
On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 05:44:33 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <slrnkqjuvh.3...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
I don't even bring a fork to the table when I eat chicken noodle soup.
Just a spoon.
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <slrnkqjuvh.3...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
> Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-06-01, Trevor <tre...@home.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:RnKtSrDI...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>>>>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>>>>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>>>>well in clumps).
>>>
>>> The idea that food should be made suitable for unsuitable implements is
>>> rather a nonsense AFAIC.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is raised
>>>> to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
>>>
>>> And fingers are commonly used as well. At least that is practical. Cultures
>>> that supply finger bowls and napkins even more so.
>>>
>>> Trevor.
>
>> I wonder if chopsticks were promoted originally as a way of helping people
>> to appreciate their food while at the same time reducing the amount that
>> can be eaten in a given time? I can't think of anything that can be eaten
>> with chopsticks that couldn't be eaten at least as easily using a spoon,
>
>It's just about impossible to eat noodles with a spoon.
>> On 2013-06-01, Trevor <tre...@home.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:RnKtSrDI...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>>>>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>>>>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>>>>well in clumps).
>>>
>>> The idea that food should be made suitable for unsuitable implements is
>>> rather a nonsense AFAIC.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is raised
>>>> to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
>>>
>>> And fingers are commonly used as well. At least that is practical. Cultures
>>> that supply finger bowls and napkins even more so.
>>>
>>> Trevor.
>
>> I wonder if chopsticks were promoted originally as a way of helping people
>> to appreciate their food while at the same time reducing the amount that
>> can be eaten in a given time? I can't think of anything that can be eaten
>> with chopsticks that couldn't be eaten at least as easily using a spoon,
>
I don't even bring a fork to the table when I eat chicken noodle soup.
Just a spoon.
Message has been deleted
BCD
Jun 2, 2013, 1:03:28 PM6/2/13
to
On 6/1/2013 1:47 PM, Percival wrote:
>
> There's an urban legend that the Mandarin emperors (or their
> predecessors) grew their fingernails very long to display the fact that
> they did no manual labor. [...]
>
> There's an urban legend that the Mandarin emperors (or their
> predecessors) grew their fingernails very long to display the fact that
***It has always been my impression that this is also the idea behind
white shirts for the upper echelons in an organization: The execs
theoretically sit around contemplating portraits of the company's
founder and of the current chairman of the board, and are thereby
inspired to come up with Great Thoughts which they then turn over to
their underlings to act upon--nothing to dirty the shining whiteness of
their shirtly attire.
Best Wishes,
--BCD
Trevor
Jun 3, 2013, 1:08:02 PM6/3/13
to
"Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote in message
>>>>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>>>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>>>well in clumps).
>
>> The idea that food should be made suitable for unsuitable implements is
>> rather a nonsense AFAIC.
>
>>> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is
>>> raised
>>> to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
>
>> And fingers are commonly used as well.
>
> In lieu of chopsticks? Never.
>>>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>>>well in clumps).
>
>> The idea that food should be made suitable for unsuitable implements is
>> rather a nonsense AFAIC.
>
>>> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is
>>> raised
>>> to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
>
>> And fingers are commonly used as well.
>
Many asian people eat rice with their fingers. Of course not all asian
cultures use chopsticks anyway, many are smarter than that.
Trevor.
Whiskers
Jun 3, 2013, 5:30:26 PM6/3/13
to
and methods of cooking and serving food. It extends to influencing the
particular type of ingredients, and even specific varieties.
Loose long-grained rice doesn't work well with chopsticks, nor with
fingers, but spoons and forks handle it easily. Types of rice that clump
together when cooked are a lot easier to manage with chopsticks or fingers.
Wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, millet, etc, aren't easily processed into
anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
R H Draney
Jun 3, 2013, 6:49:11 PM6/3/13
to
Whiskers filted:
having to do with the way food is prepared, which may both be true:
(1) In the places where chopsticks became standard, rules of hospitality
demanded that you serve food to any guest, even if said guest were an enemy
sworn to kill you when given the opportunity...since one naturally does not
simply give such a person a sharp knife at the table, food was served already
cut up into bite-sized pieces so there would be no need for the guest to cut
anything up.
(2) In those same places, fuel for cooking was scarce...more so than the food
itself...so kitchen technology favored food cut up into small pieces, which
would cook faster than the big roasts and pastries favored in other parts of the
world...after the small morsels were made suitable for eating, the cooking fire
could be extinguished and the unburned portions saved to cook again for the next
meal.
>
>There's an interesting interplay between table manners, eating utensils,
>and methods of cooking and serving food. It extends to influencing the
>particular type of ingredients, and even specific varieties.
>
>Loose long-grained rice doesn't work well with chopsticks, nor with
>fingers, but spoons and forks handle it easily. Types of rice that clump
>together when cooked are a lot easier to manage with chopsticks or fingers.
>
>Wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, millet, etc, aren't easily processed into
>anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
>didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
A book I have on the history of chopsticks offers two explanations for them
>There's an interesting interplay between table manners, eating utensils,
>and methods of cooking and serving food. It extends to influencing the
>particular type of ingredients, and even specific varieties.
>
>Loose long-grained rice doesn't work well with chopsticks, nor with
>fingers, but spoons and forks handle it easily. Types of rice that clump
>together when cooked are a lot easier to manage with chopsticks or fingers.
>
>Wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, millet, etc, aren't easily processed into
>anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
>didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
having to do with the way food is prepared, which may both be true:
(1) In the places where chopsticks became standard, rules of hospitality
demanded that you serve food to any guest, even if said guest were an enemy
sworn to kill you when given the opportunity...since one naturally does not
simply give such a person a sharp knife at the table, food was served already
cut up into bite-sized pieces so there would be no need for the guest to cut
anything up.
(2) In those same places, fuel for cooking was scarce...more so than the food
itself...so kitchen technology favored food cut up into small pieces, which
would cook faster than the big roasts and pastries favored in other parts of the
world...after the small morsels were made suitable for eating, the cooking fire
could be extinguished and the unburned portions saved to cook again for the next
meal.
Message has been deleted
Trevor
Jun 4, 2013, 12:07:59 AM6/4/13
to
"Whiskers" <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnkqq2ni.5...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
> Wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, millet, etc, aren't easily processed into
> anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
> didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
There isn't much you can't manage with knife, fork, spoon and fingers, but
> anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
> didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
chopsticks alone do have their limits no matter how much you practice. And
why you'd want to when you don't have to escapes me. The only good thing
about Australia being such a multi cultural society IMO is that we regularly
eat food from many dozens of cultures without a second thought these days.
Trevor.
Trevor
Jun 4, 2013, 12:14:12 AM6/4/13
to
"Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote in message
>>>>>>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>>>>>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>>>>>well in clumps).
>>>
>>>> The idea that food should be made suitable for unsuitable implements is
>>>> rather a nonsense AFAIC.
>>>
>>>>> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is
>>>>> raised
>>>>> to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
>>>
>>>> And fingers are commonly used as well.
>>>
>>> In lieu of chopsticks? Never.
>
>> Many asian people eat rice with their fingers. Of course not all asian
>> cultures use chopsticks anyway, many are smarter than that.
>
> I can only go by China and Japan, where fingers were never used.
>>>>>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>>>>>well in clumps).
>>>
>>>> The idea that food should be made suitable for unsuitable implements is
>>>> rather a nonsense AFAIC.
>>>
>>>>> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is
>>>>> raised
>>>>> to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
>>>
>>>> And fingers are commonly used as well.
>>>
>>> In lieu of chopsticks? Never.
>
>> Many asian people eat rice with their fingers. Of course not all asian
>> cultures use chopsticks anyway, many are smarter than that.
>
But common in many parts of SE Asia where they don't (or rarely) use
chopsticks either.
Food on skewers is also common, and easy to eat without implements.
Trevor.
Robert Bannister
Jun 4, 2013, 12:23:31 AM6/4/13
to
Afghan border, in a small restaurant that looked more like a bandits'
hideout and with staff who definitely looked like bandits, we were
served the best basmati rice I have ever tasted along with a tiny dish
of spicy stew and a large piece of flat bread.
I wished I hadn't read the "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" because I
distinctly remembered "use only the first three fingers of the right
hand". I also remembered what they do with their left hand. I tried so
hard. I made little balls of the rice with my "clean" three fingers, but
the rice was so fluffy they just fell apart before reaching my lips.
After the bread ran out, I surreptitiously but necessarily made use of
my left hand while keeping a careful eye on the bandits' knife hands.
For those who think "Asia" consists only of China and Japan with a few
islands possibly thrown in, and for those who think "Asia" is solely
Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka I suppose I should remind them
that Iran is part of Asia and always was.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jun 4, 2013, 12:31:49 AM6/4/13
to
time when most of our ancestors thought a meal was mainly berries and
leaves with occasionally some half-burnt, half-raw meat which you hoped
the big guys weren't going to eat up before you got a turn. Having
invented them, they then sat back thinking how clever they were for
thousands of years.
In the meantime, we had been introduced to the fork. We accepted it
slowly and reluctantly. True we had abandoned our flint knives for
bronze and then iron ones, but having found we could eat perfectly well
with our new knives, we were also content with "paralysis". It took
fashion and undoubtedly women to force us to change. The Chinese did
have fashion, but it was the wrong one. They had women too, but the
latter must have lacked the feroc^H^H^H^H^H forcefulness of the "gentle"
sex in western parts.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jun 4, 2013, 12:39:24 AM6/4/13
to
On 4/06/13 6:49 AM, R H Draney wrote:
> Whiskers filted:
>>
>> There's an interesting interplay between table manners, eating utensils,
>> and methods of cooking and serving food. It extends to influencing the
>> particular type of ingredients, and even specific varieties.
>>
>> Loose long-grained rice doesn't work well with chopsticks, nor with
>> fingers, but spoons and forks handle it easily. Types of rice that clump
>> together when cooked are a lot easier to manage with chopsticks or fingers.
>>
>> Wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, millet, etc, aren't easily processed into
>> anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
>> didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
>
> A book I have on the history of chopsticks offers two explanations for them
> having to do with the way food is prepared, which may both be true:
>
> (1) In the places where chopsticks became standard, rules of hospitality
> demanded that you serve food to any guest, even if said guest were an enemy
> sworn to kill you when given the opportunity...since one naturally does not
> simply give such a person a sharp knife at the table, food was served already
> cut up into bite-sized pieces so there would be no need for the guest to cut
> anything up.
I can't see that at all. Everybody carried a knife, even teenagers, and
> Whiskers filted:
>>
>> There's an interesting interplay between table manners, eating utensils,
>> and methods of cooking and serving food. It extends to influencing the
>> particular type of ingredients, and even specific varieties.
>>
>> Loose long-grained rice doesn't work well with chopsticks, nor with
>> fingers, but spoons and forks handle it easily. Types of rice that clump
>> together when cooked are a lot easier to manage with chopsticks or fingers.
>>
>> Wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, millet, etc, aren't easily processed into
>> anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
>> didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
>
> A book I have on the history of chopsticks offers two explanations for them
> having to do with the way food is prepared, which may both be true:
>
> (1) In the places where chopsticks became standard, rules of hospitality
> demanded that you serve food to any guest, even if said guest were an enemy
> sworn to kill you when given the opportunity...since one naturally does not
> simply give such a person a sharp knife at the table, food was served already
> cut up into bite-sized pieces so there would be no need for the guest to cut
> anything up.
it would be most unusual and insulting to be asked to relinquish it.
Even in places where weapons were normally surrendered like church or
the lord's hall, men, women and children still wore their all-purpose
knives. It would presumably be considered an act of extreme desperation
to attempt to defend yourself, let alone attack someone else with your
little (min. 10cm) blade of sharp iron or steel. I suppose it happened,
but then people get bashed up too without any knives involved.
>
> (2) In those same places, fuel for cooking was scarce...more so than the food
> itself...so kitchen technology favored food cut up into small pieces, which
> would cook faster than the big roasts and pastries favored in other parts of the
> world...after the small morsels were made suitable for eating, the cooking fire
> could be extinguished and the unburned portions saved to cook again for the next
> meal.
stewed in a cauldron/kettle/pot/casserole and eaten with a spoon. The
Chinese had spoons. Why didn't they use them?
--
Robert Bannister
Trevor
Jun 4, 2013, 12:41:50 AM6/4/13
to
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in message
news:b158e5...@mid.individual.net...
> For those who think "Asia" consists only of China and Japan with a few
> islands possibly thrown in, and for those who think "Asia" is solely
> Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka I suppose I should remind them
> that Iran is part of Asia and always was.
And so are Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Philipines, Singapore..... just to
> islands possibly thrown in, and for those who think "Asia" is solely
> Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka I suppose I should remind them
> that Iran is part of Asia and always was.
name a few.
At least they may be forgiven for including Iran in the Middle Eastern bloc
rather than Asia I guess. Like former USSR nations are often called part of
the Soviet Bloc, despite many always being part of Asia.
But yes the list is FAR more extensive than China and Japan. Hell even
Australia calls itself part of Asia when it suits it! :-)
(I don't)
Trevor.
Ian Jackson
Jun 4, 2013, 3:47:34 AM6/4/13
to
In message <b158to...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> writes
My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into Britain until
the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many considered it the tool
of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly the Chinese had similar views on
modern eating implements.
--
Ian
<rob...@clubtelco.com> writes
the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many considered it the tool
of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly the Chinese had similar views on
modern eating implements.
--
Ian
CDB
Jun 4, 2013, 7:28:24 AM6/4/13
to
On 04/06/2013 3:47 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
[chopsticks and dietary determinism]
> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into Britain until
> the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many considered it the tool
> of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly the Chinese had similar views on
> modern eating implements.
I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing out to a
Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent people don't eat
with kitchen implements.
[chopsticks and dietary determinism]
> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into Britain until
> the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many considered it the tool
> of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly the Chinese had similar views on
> modern eating implements.
Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent people don't eat
with kitchen implements.
Message has been deleted
Whiskers
Jun 4, 2013, 11:39:08 AM6/4/13
to
our ancestors mostly seem to have eaten pretty well, to judge by their
remains and relics.
As for satisfaction with the invention of chopsticks, surely it has to be
admitted that they could not be refined any further.
> In the meantime, we had been introduced to the fork. We accepted it
> slowly and reluctantly. True we had abandoned our flint knives for
> bronze and then iron ones, but having found we could eat perfectly well
> with our new knives, we were also content with "paralysis". It took
> fashion and undoubtedly women to force us to change.
> The Chinese did
> have fashion, but it was the wrong one. They had women too, but the
> latter must have lacked the feroc^H^H^H^H^H forcefulness of the "gentle"
> sex in western parts.
Whiskers
Jun 4, 2013, 11:20:10 AM6/4/13
to
other day, and wondering how I'd manage it with chopsticks; the café (in
north London) provides knife fork and spoon - and patrons sometimes use
fingers too. Many Mexican dishes would certainly be manageable with
chopsticks, although the only place in Mexico City to offer me them was a
Japanese sushi restaurant. It's a small world!
Oliver Cromm
Jun 4, 2013, 5:44:06 PM6/4/13
to
* Trevor:
> "Whiskers" <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnkqq2ni.5...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
>> Wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, millet, etc, aren't easily processed into
>> anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
>> didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
>
> There isn't much you can't manage with knife, fork, spoon and fingers, but
> chopsticks alone do have their limits no matter how much you practice.
Similarly, each of knife, fork and spoon alone have their limits,
to introduce a fairer comparison. If you can only choose one,
chopsticks are a pretty versatile choice.
And it's not like the First Commandment applies to chopsticks - in
Korea, chopsticks and a spoon are the standard set of implements.
--
WinErr 008: Erroneous error. Nothing is wrong.
> "Whiskers" <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnkqq2ni.5...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
>> Wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, millet, etc, aren't easily processed into
>> anything that chopsticks can handle conveniently. This may be why China
>> didn't invent Yorkshire pudding nor Britain chopsticks.
>
> There isn't much you can't manage with knife, fork, spoon and fingers, but
> chopsticks alone do have their limits no matter how much you practice.
to introduce a fairer comparison. If you can only choose one,
chopsticks are a pretty versatile choice.
And it's not like the First Commandment applies to chopsticks - in
Korea, chopsticks and a spoon are the standard set of implements.
--
WinErr 008: Erroneous error. Nothing is wrong.
Oliver Cromm
Jun 4, 2013, 5:44:10 PM6/4/13
to
* Lewis:
> In message <kokj0o$sr8$1...@speranza.aioe.org>
> I think that was in Shogun, actually.
Not very convincing, as well, since chopsticks are the main
kitchen implement in chopstick-using cultures.
--
A computer will do what you tell it to do, but that may be much
different from what you had in mind. - Joseph Weizenbaum
> In message <kokj0o$sr8$1...@speranza.aioe.org>
Not very convincing, as well, since chopsticks are the main
kitchen implement in chopstick-using cultures.
--
A computer will do what you tell it to do, but that may be much
different from what you had in mind. - Joseph Weizenbaum
R H Draney
Jun 4, 2013, 6:05:27 PM6/4/13
to
Robert Bannister filted:
And then there are those of us who can look at a map and tell that Norway is
also part of Asia....r
>
>For those who think "Asia" consists only of China and Japan with a few
>islands possibly thrown in, and for those who think "Asia" is solely
>Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka I suppose I should remind them
>that Iran is part of Asia and always was.
A Minor part, to be sure....
>For those who think "Asia" consists only of China and Japan with a few
>islands possibly thrown in, and for those who think "Asia" is solely
>Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka I suppose I should remind them
>that Iran is part of Asia and always was.
And then there are those of us who can look at a map and tell that Norway is
also part of Asia....r
Robert Bannister
Jun 4, 2013, 9:39:06 PM6/4/13
to
from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jun 4, 2013, 9:41:17 PM6/4/13
to
>
>> The Chinese did
>> have fashion, but it was the wrong one. They had women too, but the
>> latter must have lacked the feroc^H^H^H^H^H forcefulness of the "gentle"
>> sex in western parts.
>
> I'll mention only "The Women Generals of Yang" ...
unwise to suggest anything else.
--
Robert Bannister
Dr Nick
Jun 5, 2013, 2:15:25 AM6/5/13
to
Leslie Danks
Jun 5, 2013, 3:35:03 AM6/5/13
to
--
Les (BrE)
"... be skeptical of government guidelines. The Indians learned not to trust
our government and neither should you." (Fallon & Enig)
CDB
Jun 5, 2013, 6:45:08 AM6/5/13
to
On 04/06/2013 5:44 PM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Lewis:
memory of a piece of fiction. It also feels older than 1975, the year
the novel was published (according to Wp). I have no trouble believing
that Clavell incorporated the report of a real incident into his story.
> Not very convincing, as well, since chopsticks are the main kitchen
> implement in chopstick-using cultures.
I have no trouble believing, either, that such a person would have only
the vaguest notion of what went in on in the kitchen. The reproof
sounds like what a child might have been told at table* to encourage him
to stop using a spoon.
All speculation.
_________________
* ObAUE: Is that like "at school" or "in hospital"?
> * Lewis:
>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> [chopsticks and dietary determinism]
>>>> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into
>>>> Britain until the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many
>>>> considered it the tool of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly
>>>> the Chinese had similar views on modern eating implements.
>>> I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing
>>> out to a Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent
>>> people don't eat with kitchen implements.
>> I think that was in Shogun, actually.
The memory is old and I can't be sure, but it doesn't feel like the
>>> Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> [chopsticks and dietary determinism]
>>>> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into
>>>> Britain until the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many
>>>> considered it the tool of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly
>>>> the Chinese had similar views on modern eating implements.
>>> I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing
>>> out to a Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent
>>> people don't eat with kitchen implements.
>> I think that was in Shogun, actually.
memory of a piece of fiction. It also feels older than 1975, the year
the novel was published (according to Wp). I have no trouble believing
that Clavell incorporated the report of a real incident into his story.
> Not very convincing, as well, since chopsticks are the main kitchen
> implement in chopstick-using cultures.
the vaguest notion of what went in on in the kitchen. The reproof
sounds like what a child might have been told at table* to encourage him
to stop using a spoon.
All speculation.
_________________
* ObAUE: Is that like "at school" or "in hospital"?
CDB
Jun 5, 2013, 6:52:26 AM6/5/13
to
>> CDB wrote:
>>> Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> [chopsticks and dietary determinism]
>>>> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into
>>>> Britain until the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many
>>>> considered it the tool of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly
>>>> the Chinese had similar views on modern eating implements.
>>> I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing
>>> out to a Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent
>>> people don't eat with kitchen implements.
>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
> And knives. Big sharp knives.
As I probably didn't make clear ("early Jesuit"), my dimmish
>>> Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> [chopsticks and dietary determinism]
>>>> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into
>>>> Britain until the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many
>>>> considered it the tool of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly
>>>> the Chinese had similar views on modern eating implements.
>>> I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing
>>> out to a Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent
>>> people don't eat with kitchen implements.
>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
> And knives. Big sharp knives.
recollection was ofearly contact. At that time, and in a far and
unforked land, the Westerner might only have been trying to use a spoon,
or eating snow-peas with his pocket-knife.
Oliver Cromm
Jun 5, 2013, 12:55:25 PM6/5/13
to
* Leslie Danks:
> Dr Nick wrote:
>
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/06/13 7:28 PM, CDB wrote:
>>>> On 04/06/2013 3:47 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [chopsticks and dietary determinism]
>>>>
>>>>> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into Britain until
>>>>> the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many considered it the tool
>>>>> of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly the Chinese had similar views
>>>>> on modern eating implements.
>>>>
>>>> I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing out to a
>>>> Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent people don't eat
>>>> with kitchen implements.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>
>> And knives. Big sharp knives.
>
> And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
You never see them bury them.
--
Software is getting slower
more rapidly than hardware becomes faster
--Wirth's law
> Dr Nick wrote:
>
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/06/13 7:28 PM, CDB wrote:
>>>> On 04/06/2013 3:47 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [chopsticks and dietary determinism]
>>>>
>>>>> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into Britain until
>>>>> the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many considered it the tool
>>>>> of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly the Chinese had similar views
>>>>> on modern eating implements.
>>>>
>>>> I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing out to a
>>>> Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent people don't eat
>>>> with kitchen implements.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>
>> And knives. Big sharp knives.
>
> And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
--
Software is getting slower
more rapidly than hardware becomes faster
--Wirth's law
Oliver Cromm
Jun 5, 2013, 12:55:29 PM6/5/13
to
* CDB:
> On 04/06/2013 5:44 PM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> * Lewis:
>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>>>> [chopsticks and dietary determinism]
>
>>>>> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into
>>>>> Britain until the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many
>>>>> considered it the tool of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly
>>>>> the Chinese had similar views on modern eating implements.
>
>>>> I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing
>>>> out to a Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent
>>>> people don't eat with kitchen implements.
>
>>> I think that was in Shogun, actually.
>
> The memory is old and I can't be sure, but it doesn't feel like the
> memory of a piece of fiction. It also feels older than 1975, the year
> the novel was published (according to Wp). I have no trouble believing
> that Clavell incorporated the report of a real incident into his story.
>
>> Not very convincing, as well, since chopsticks are the main kitchen
>> implement in chopstick-using cultures.
>
> I have no trouble believing, either, that such a person would have only
> the vaguest notion of what went in on in the kitchen.
True.
--
Performance: A statement of the speed at which a computer system
works. Or rather, might work under certain circumstances. Or was
rumored to be working over in Jersey about a month ago.
> On 04/06/2013 5:44 PM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> * Lewis:
>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>>>> [chopsticks and dietary determinism]
>
>>>>> My understanding is that the fork wasn't introduced into
>>>>> Britain until the middle ages (or even a bit later), and many
>>>>> considered it the tool of the devil, and unchristian. Possibly
>>>>> the Chinese had similar views on modern eating implements.
>
>>>> I remember hearing of an aristocratic elderly Chinese pointing
>>>> out to a Western visitor (maybe an early Jesuit) that decent
>>>> people don't eat with kitchen implements.
>
>>> I think that was in Shogun, actually.
>
> The memory is old and I can't be sure, but it doesn't feel like the
> memory of a piece of fiction. It also feels older than 1975, the year
> the novel was published (according to Wp). I have no trouble believing
> that Clavell incorporated the report of a real incident into his story.
>
>> Not very convincing, as well, since chopsticks are the main kitchen
>> implement in chopstick-using cultures.
>
> I have no trouble believing, either, that such a person would have only
> the vaguest notion of what went in on in the kitchen.
--
Performance: A statement of the speed at which a computer system
works. Or rather, might work under certain circumstances. Or was
rumored to be working over in Jersey about a month ago.
Whiskers
Jun 5, 2013, 8:37:55 AM6/5/13
to
meat has to be skinned and boned, before chopsticks are of any use.
R H Draney
Jun 5, 2013, 3:09:56 PM6/5/13
to
Leslie Danks filted:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2007/05/cutting-up-an-ox.html
>
>Dr Nick wrote:
>
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>>>
>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>
>> And knives. Big sharp knives.
>
>And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
Are you talking about what is here called a "cleaver"?
>Dr Nick wrote:
>
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>>>
>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>
>> And knives. Big sharp knives.
>
>And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2007/05/cutting-up-an-ox.html
Leslie Danks
Jun 5, 2013, 3:40:19 PM6/5/13
to
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL_dKxAiREs>
although this "French butcher's hatchet" looks more like a cleaver than a
hatchet:
<http://store.fastcommerce.com/Culinaire/french-butcher-s-hatchet-ff808181314bc34b013152801850058a-p.html>
<http://tinyurl.com/m82bvxm>
Nevertheless, I think "cleaver" was indeed what I meant.
Adam Funk
Jun 5, 2013, 4:05:51 PM6/5/13
to
--
I have a natural revulsion to any operating system that shows so
little planning as to have to named all of its commands after
digestive noises (awk, grep, fsck, nroff).
[The UNIX-Haters Handbook]
James Hogg
Jun 5, 2013, 4:20:13 PM6/5/13
to
Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2013-06-05, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
>> * Leslie Danks:
>>> Dr Nick wrote:
>>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>
>>>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>>> And knives. Big sharp knives.
>>> And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
>> You never see them bury them.
>
>
> "I have come to bury the hatchet, not to praise it."
"O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth, that I am meek and gentle
> On 2013-06-05, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
>> * Leslie Danks:
>>> Dr Nick wrote:
>>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>
>>>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>>> And knives. Big sharp knives.
>>> And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
>> You never see them bury them.
>
>
> "I have come to bury the hatchet, not to praise it."
with these butcher's," said Mark Antony apostrophically.
--
James
Evan Kirshenbaum
Jun 5, 2013, 5:47:42 PM6/5/13
to
CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
> The reproof sounds like what a child might have been told at table*
> to encourage him to stop using a spoon.
> The reproof sounds like what a child might have been told at table*
> to encourage him to stop using a spoon.
> * ObAUE: Is that like "at school" or "in hospital"?
Is that an either-or? It's like "in hospital" in that it sounds wrong
in AmE.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |There is something fascinating
SF Bay Area (1982-) |about science. One gets such
Chicago (1964-1982) |wholesale returns of conjecture out
|of such a trifling investment of
evan.kir...@gmail.com |fact.
| Mark Twain
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Robert Bannister
Jun 5, 2013, 9:03:16 PM6/5/13
to
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jun 5, 2013, 9:06:32 PM6/5/13
to
On 6/06/13 3:40 AM, Leslie Danks wrote:
> R H Draney wrote:
>
>> Leslie Danks filted:
>>>
>>> Dr Nick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>>>
>>>> And knives. Big sharp knives.
>>>
>>> And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
>>
>> Are you talking about what is here called a "cleaver"?
>>
>> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2007/05/cutting-up-an-ox.html
>>
> It appears that there is a difference between a hatchet and a cleaver:
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL_dKxAiREs>
>
> although this "French butcher's hatchet" looks more like a cleaver than a
> hatchet:
>
> <http://store.fastcommerce.com/Culinaire/french-butcher-s-hatchet-ff808181314bc34b013152801850058a-p.html>
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/m82bvxm>
>
> Nevertheless, I think "cleaver" was indeed what I meant.
>
I call mine my Chinese chopper. After all these years, it still had a
> R H Draney wrote:
>
>> Leslie Danks filted:
>>>
>>> Dr Nick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>>>
>>>> And knives. Big sharp knives.
>>>
>>> And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
>>
>> Are you talking about what is here called a "cleaver"?
>>
>> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2007/05/cutting-up-an-ox.html
>>
> It appears that there is a difference between a hatchet and a cleaver:
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL_dKxAiREs>
>
> although this "French butcher's hatchet" looks more like a cleaver than a
> hatchet:
>
> <http://store.fastcommerce.com/Culinaire/french-butcher-s-hatchet-ff808181314bc34b013152801850058a-p.html>
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/m82bvxm>
>
> Nevertheless, I think "cleaver" was indeed what I meant.
>
good edge once it's had a taste of the steel.
--
Robert Bannister
Trevor
Jun 6, 2013, 3:58:44 AM6/6/13
to
news:slrnkqs2gs.2...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
entirely. Pretentious wankers of course relish the opportunity to prove
their skill at something no sane person would even bother learning, knowing
there are better alternatives, and life is too short to learn everything.
Those forced to eat that way from early childhood had no say in the matter
of course.
I'd never starve using chopsticks, but I'm quite happy not to be an expert
at it.
Trevor.
> As for satisfaction with the invention of chopsticks, surely it has to be
> admitted that they could not be refined any further.
At which point a smart person admits their error and tries a better solution
> admitted that they could not be refined any further.
entirely. Pretentious wankers of course relish the opportunity to prove
their skill at something no sane person would even bother learning, knowing
there are better alternatives, and life is too short to learn everything.
Those forced to eat that way from early childhood had no say in the matter
of course.
I'd never starve using chopsticks, but I'm quite happy not to be an expert
at it.
Trevor.
Trevor
Jun 6, 2013, 4:03:37 AM6/6/13
to
"Oliver Cromm" <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote in message
news:zrzwbogd3odr$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info...
>> There isn't much you can't manage with knife, fork, spoon and fingers,
>> but
>> chopsticks alone do have their limits no matter how much you practice.
>
> Similarly, each of knife, fork and spoon alone have their limits,
> to introduce a fairer comparison. If you can only choose one,
> chopsticks are a pretty versatile choice.
Nope, ONE chopstick is a pretty dire implement for eating anything!
>> but
>> chopsticks alone do have their limits no matter how much you practice.
>
> Similarly, each of knife, fork and spoon alone have their limits,
> to introduce a fairer comparison. If you can only choose one,
> chopsticks are a pretty versatile choice.
You'd need to sharpen it like a skewer so you could stab your food at least.
Trevor.
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