Re: More stupidities
Igor Sklar
> yaro...@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
> news:<870e846a.04090...@posting.google.com>...
> > Jacques Guy (jg...@alphalink.com.au) wrote...
> > >
> > > "He [Timothy the Turtle] was a mascot on British ship HMS Queen,
> > > which bombarded Sebastopol in 1854 during the siege of the city
> > > - now called Sevastopol"
> > >
> > > Indeed, I wish all those cities stopped changing their names
> > > (by deed poll?).
> > >
> > > I hear that Florence is now called "Firenze", and Moscow "Moskva".
> > > Where will this madness stop? Are they really going to call
> > > Londres "London" next?
> >
> > Indeed. Haven't you heard that Kiev is now "Kyiv" (try to pronounce
> > this), the Groyne is "La Corunna", Leghorn is "Livorno", and
> > Archangel is "Arkhangelsk"?
>
> It sounds close enough to "keev" when Ukrainians say it. AFAIK the
> "ky" just represents a palatalized "k", there isn't an actual "y"
> sound.
Ok, let it be Kyiv. Why not Praha or Warsczawa then?
I feel kind of sad that so many old names, with their numerous
historical and literary associations, are gradually falling out of
usage. I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
name to Iran. All these names - Iran, Iraq, Pakistan - mean nothing to
me.
I wish that many old Russian names were retained in the language, for
example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for
the Nenets :)
regards
meirman
(Igor Sklar) posted:
> I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
>name to Iran.
Do you know what Persia was called before it was called Persia?
Iran, or so I'm told.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years
a.spencer3
"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:g5tvj05gnn0qicult...@4ax.com...
> In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaro...@gmail.com
> (Igor Sklar) posted:
>
> > I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
> >name to Iran.
>
> Do you know what Persia was called before it was called Persia?
>
> Iran, or so I'm told.
>
Well, near enough. The 'Persians' called 'Persia' 'Arian' in 'Persian'!
Surreyman
Igor Sklar
> In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaro...@gmail.com
> (Igor Sklar) posted:
>
> >name to Iran.
>
>
> Iran, or so I'm told.
I know that. It doesn't matter how the Persians call their country. I
just think it's not fair to make other languages accept that name.
The name Persia had so many poetic associations in Russian:
persik ('peaches'), persi ('breast/bosom'), perst' ('dust/ashes')....
The name 'Iran' doesn't evoke anything.
In Russian, China is called Kitai (cf Cathay), but in Chinese it's
neither Kitai nor China. The Chinese don't care what's their country
name in other languages, why should the Persians/Iranians be so
particular about it?
regards
piotr panek
>
>
> I know that. It doesn't matter how the Persians call their country. I
> just think it's not fair to make other languages accept that name.
>
> The name Persia had so many poetic associations in Russian:
> persik ('peaches')
As well as Persian cat race...
>, persi ('breast/bosom'),
But you don't claim they're cognates, do you? :-)
In Polish it is more different - "piersi" are [p'jErs\i] and "Persja" is
[pErs'ja] (' indicates semi-softeness, ie. slight
palatalization+fronting), so it doesn't trigger such associations...
>
> In Russian, China is called Kitai (cf Cathay), but in Chinese it's
> neither Kitai nor China. The Chinese don't care what's their country
> name in other languages, why should the Persians/Iranians be so
> particular about it?
The similar situation is about the country between Transilvania and
Ukraine. It has been called Mołdawia [mołdav'ja/mowdav'ja] in Polish for
at least 700 years, whether it was an independent country, or a feudum
of Poland, Hungary or Turkey, or just a part of Russian/Soviet empiry
and Romania, but now to distinguish new independent republic from the
former Soviet republic (unfortunately - in this case- called in Russian
similarily to Polish - Moldavia), the Moldavian governemnt "forced" to
use a name "Mołdowa" [mOwdOva].
Anyway, the Mussolini's claim to change Polish name Włochy into sth
similar to Italia failed...
piotrek
Peter Duncanson
>
>In Russian, China is called Kitai (cf Cathay), but in Chinese it's
>neither Kitai nor China. The Chinese don't care what's their country
>name in other languages, why should the Persians/Iranians be so
>particular about it?
I think we need to distinguish between those names that are nicknames and
those that are proper names.
Kitai and China are, in effect, nicknames for the country whose proper name
is Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo.
Persia and Iran are the proper names of that country.
If a country changes its proper name it is polite, and correct, to use the
new name after the change.
However if the country has a nickname it is often possible to continue using
the nickname after the change of proper name.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u)
Jacques Guy
> Kitai and China are, in effect, nicknames for the country whose proper name
> is Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo.
Piss off. Do you know what Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo means?
How far back it dates? Come on, out with it, tell us.
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
Hold on a minute.
I do not personally know the local name for China or what it means.
Two separate sources gave the name above, one fifteen years old, the other
up to date. If it is not the current offical name of the country then I
apologise.
Jacques Guy
>If it is not the current offical name of the country then I
> apologise.
It has been the official name of the country for... count'em
50 years. Not even one fiftieth of the age of China. As
for "republic" (gongheguo) it had been a republic before
it was a "people's republic" (renmin gongheguo)--ask
Sun Yat Sen. And long before that it was, like Greece,
like Italy, like Germany, an agglomerate of warring
states, sharing a common language (well, closely
related languages) and a common culture,eventually
united as China. Kitai and China are perfectly
good names, borrowed by different countries at different
times, just like the Romans of Julius Caesar's times
called Gallia what today's Romans call Francia. The proper
name for China is Zhongguo (Chung-Kuo in Giles-Wade).
But since here we are using English, it is "China".
Do you know what the word for "England" is in Chinese?
Would you insist on the Chinese using E.N.G.L.A.N.D.
instead of what they are using? So say "China" for
China.
Dik T. Winter
> On 9 Sep 2004 02:13:21 -0700, yaro...@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote:
> >In Russian, China is called Kitai (cf Cathay), but in Chinese it's
> >neither Kitai nor China. The Chinese don't care what's their country
> >name in other languages, why should the Persians/Iranians be so
> >particular about it?
>
> I think we need to distinguish between those names that are nicknames and
> those that are proper names.
>
> Kitai and China are, in effect, nicknames for the country whose proper name
> is Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo.
Ehrm. In that case Germany is a nickname for "Bundesrepublik Deutschland",
yes?
> Persia and Iran are the proper names of that country.
Eh, no, by your reasoning that should be "Jomhuri-ye Eslami-ye Iran".
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
Harlan Messinger
"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:01g0k0hl7rp7um79c...@4ax.com...
> However if the country has a nickname it is often possible to continue
using
> the nickname after the change of proper name.
The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and some
have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
Yusuf B Gursey
> news:g5tvj05gnn0qicult...@4ax.com...
> > In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaro...@gmail.com
> > (Igor Sklar) posted:
> >
> > > I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
> > >name to Iran.
> >
> > Do you know what Persia was called before it was called Persia?
> >
> > Iran, or so I'm told.
>
> I know that. It doesn't matter how the Persians call their country. I
> just think it's not fair to make other languages accept that name.
>
> The name Persia had so many poetic associations in Russian:
> persik ('peaches'), persi ('breast/bosom'), perst' ('dust/ashes')....
> The name 'Iran' doesn't evoke anything.
>
> In Russian, China is called Kitai (cf Cathay), but in Chinese it's
Kitay is from Eastern Turkic qIta:y , in the 11th cent and thereabouts
the domain of the Liao (originally qIta:*ny*, through sound changes in
Eastern Turkic it becomes qIta:y , xIta:y , qita:y etc.). Marco Polo
knew eastern turkic and probably had turkic interpreters so place
names appear in turkic garb and agree with western mongolian and
persian sources of that period or shortly after.
China is form the Qin dynasty via sanskritor sogdian and persian.
> neither Kitai nor China. The Chinese don't care what's their country
> name in other languages, why should the Persians/Iranians be so
> particular about it?
actually the initial reason was rather ugly. persians were calling
their country Iran (i:ra:n) but the pro-Hitler ambassador to Berlin
inthe 1930's remembered the etymology associated with Hitler's
"Aryan", thought it was great, advised the pro-Axis Shah about it and
the Shah agreed, and launched a diplomatic campaign fo rthe usage of
"Iran" in other languages.
that being said, nowadays the feeling is that Iran does not evoke an
ethnic term, and many Iranian citizens are not ethnic persians. "Fars"
in persian is just a central province. in the Middle East, because of
the populariy of the Shahna:ma of Firdawsi (based on Sasanian and
Zoroastrian lore) "Iran" is where the Forces of Good (Hurmuz / Ahura
Mazda) rule and has a positive conotation.
>
> regards
Yusuf B Gursey
Arian was the Parthian form, and the greek rendition from an Old Persian idiom.
in Middle Persian (Sasanian) it was e:ra:n which became i:ra:n later.
>
> Surreyman
Yusuf B Gursey
: On 9 Sep 2004 02:13:21 -0700, yaro...@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote:
:>
:>In Russian, China is called Kitai (cf Cathay), but in Chinese it's
:>neither Kitai nor China. The Chinese don't care what's their country
:>name in other languages, why should the Persians/Iranians be so
:>particular about it?
: I think we need to distinguish between those names that are nicknames and
: those that are proper names.
: Kitai and China are, in effect, nicknames for the country whose proper name
: is Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo.
: Persia and Iran are the proper names of that country.
"Persia" for persians refers to a province (in new persian fa:rs) that has
been the linguistically and culturally dominant one. i:ra:n has always
been more general
: If a country changes its proper name it is polite, and correct, to use the
Joanne Marinelli
"Igor Sklar" <yaro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:870e846a.04090...@posting.google.com...
I don't get the point of your regret, or even of your protest. Persia still
survives as a place name, as a classification, e.g., Persian carpet, and as
a historical reference. We all survived when Peking became Beijing, and I
see nothing less rich in calling my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange
student my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange student. Calling him
Persian would have felt awkward and antiquated. This is the modern world,
after all.
Joanne
Yusuf B Gursey
: that being said, nowadays the feeling is that Iran does not evoke an
: ethnic term, and many Iranian citizens are not ethnic persians. "Fars"
: in persian is just a central province. in the Middle East, because of
: the populariy of the Shahna:ma of Firdawsi (based on Sasanian and
: Zoroastrian lore) "Iran" is where the Forces of Good (Hurmuz / Ahura
: Mazda) rule and has a positive conotation.
similarly Abysinia is after the Abysinians, a South Arabian tribe
(al-Haba*sh* in Arabic, south arabian * Habas^) and refers to the Semitic
(i.e. Ethiopic) speakers of the country, while Ethiopia is less narrowly
ethnic (AFAIK greek "burnt skins" but actually perhaps again a Semitic?
tribal name, but of sufficiently obscure etymology that its ethnic
conotation is not known in recent times). AFAIK the name change was (in
antive languages as well) due to have a wider ethnic appeal.
it is however, appropriate to call the old Aksumite Empire "Abysinia")
Jack Straw
> In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaro...@gmail.com
> (Igor Sklar) posted:
> >
> > I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
> > name to Iran.
>
> survives as a place name, as a classification, e.g., Persian carpet, and as
> a historical reference.
How very pragmatic. Girls are always like that :0)
> We all survived when Peking became Beijing, and I
> see nothing less rich in calling my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange
> student my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange student. Calling him
> Persian would have felt awkward and antiquated. This is the modern world,
> after all.
But would it have felt so awkward and antiquated, if the American
governemnt didn't start to use "Iran" in an awkward attempt to appease
some Persian shah?
Jack
Yusuf B Gursey
: I feel kind of sad that so many old names, with their numerous
: historical and literary associations, are gradually falling out of
: usage. I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
: name to Iran. All these names - Iran, Iraq, Pakistan - mean nothing to
: me.
all of Iraq isn't Mesopotamia and all of Upper Mesopotamia isn't in Iraq
3ira:q was the name of the region in arabic and is attested before in the
early 1st millenium (IIRC).
Pakistan is simply a modern entity, a name coined with the idea of
Partition. a large portion of Pakistan was known as sind to the arabs
(i.e. sindh), from the Old Persian version hind (i.e. India) is derived.
sindh is still the name of a large province of Pakistan.
XyZmass::.
> Joanne Marinelli wrote...
> > In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaro...@gmail.com
> > (Igor Sklar) posted:
> > >
> > > name to Iran.
> >
> > survives as a place name, as a classification, e.g., Persian carpet, and as
> > a historical reference.
>
> How very pragmatic. Girls are always like that :0)
>
> > We all survived when Peking became Beijing, and I
> > see nothing less rich in calling my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange
> > student my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange student. Calling him
> > Persian would have felt awkward and antiquated. This is the modern world,
> > after all.
>
> But would it have felt so awkward and antiquated, if the American
> governemnt didn't start to use "Iran" in an awkward attempt to appease
> some Persian shah?
To be quite Frank, Jack....who gives a "shit", what the Victors have
to say, about what Iranians are supposed to call themselves, and when
speaking in English!
Or the Mother's Language, which is Persian...
Now All say it in UNI_son
&
>
> Jack
Respect!
PS: Refer to Koorosh, the Founder for The NAME of a Nation, He
Created....then as Now, *WE* the iranians, Never should have been
called anything else. Except for Some OLD Iranian Jewish Familys, Whom
Consider Themselves Persian, since they are Recorded to Have had
"their" asses Freed and turned back to Israel!!
When U turn the Flattened Ball on Your Watch, How Far back does it
GO?!?
Joanne Marinelli
Your point is over my head Jack. I don't really see this as an issue of
political correctness, or loss of elocution in contemporary usage, which is
what the OP is bitching about--maybe it's because I am a writer, and realize
that eloquence can be had in the encrusted shit beneath a toilet bowl rim,
as whatever else may be said of Pynchon, I'll never forget that passage in
Gravity's Rainbow--which goes to my point. Pynchon didn't need to gloss over
a thing being what it is, unlike Puzo, who had to elevate his diction to
something like *voided his sphincter*. Pynchon could call shit what it was
and still commit a near great act of writing. Puzo's just a great hack
wearing out time worn Sicilian stereotypes.
Persian/Iranian
I see no relative differentiation making one descriptive term less or more
than the other.
Joanne
who got the aesthetic lecture in for the day
Tak To
> The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
> known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
> several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and some
> have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
> Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
It's always DCA to me. Likewise, LAX. :-)
Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
Newark Airport is now supposedly Newark Liberty Airport. No one's wasted
money on changing the road signs yet.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Yusuf B Gursey
: Persian/Iranian
nowadays, "Persian" is ethnic, "Iranian" refers to citizenshipor country
of origin. there are many "Iranians" who are not "Persian" and proud of
it.
Tak To
> Kitay is from Eastern Turkic qIta:y , in the 11th cent and thereabouts
> the domain of the Liao (originally qIta:*ny*, through sound changes in
> Eastern Turkic it becomes qIta:y , xIta:y , qita:y etc.). Marco Polo
> knew eastern turkic and probably had turkic interpreters so place
> names appear in turkic garb and agree with western mongolian and
> persian sources of that period or shortly after.
FWIW, the Khitans probably spoke a Mongolic language.
> China is form the Qin dynasty via sanskritor sogdian and persian.
Or Qin the tribe, Qin the Kingdom, or from <si> (silk), ...
Yusuf B Gursey
: I don't get the point of your regret, or even of your protest. Persia still
: survives as a place name, as a classification, e.g., Persian carpet, and as
: a historical reference. We all survived when Peking became Beijing, and I
: see nothing less rich in calling my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange
: student my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange student. Calling him
: Persian would have felt awkward and antiquated. This is the modern world,
: after all.
in my interactions with people from Iran it is relevant if they are
"Persian" or not. if he / she is an Azeri for example, I would like to
converse in that language.
it's not an irrelevant point if you know the region.
Harlan Messinger
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:414092...@worldnet.att.net...
Congress forced Washington Metro to change the signs on all its stations.
They threatened to withhold funds otherwise.
Yusuf B Gursey
: I don't get the point of your regret, or even of your protest. Persia still
: survives a place name, as a classification, e.g., Persian carpet, and as
again, I would be more interested in what tribe (typically non-persian)
the carpet comes form.
: a historical reference. We all survived when Peking became Beijing, and I
for me "Iran" is a historical refernce.
Peter T. Daniels
The manager of the Capitol cafeteria says he can't go back to french
fries because of an Act of Congress.
Martin Ambuhl
Are you the Jack (John Whitaker) Straw born in 1946 and familiar to CNN
and BBC watchers, or the rather more interesting one who was a leader in
the Peasants' Revolt of 1381? Kaiser's inclusion in _Medieval English_
of a macaronic poem on the second gives him, I think, a better claim to
alt.english.usage.
Joanne Marinelli
"Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:chq45r$vlr$2...@pcls4.std.com...
Point taken, and I also realize this is going to an Iranian culture
newsgroup, but I am not arguing about ethnic relevance, of which I'm
ignorant when it comes to Middle Eastern frames of reference-- I was looking
at the words themselves, and to my mind Iranian holds equal footing with
Persian.
As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian, (though I
suppose it is regional) I am in the dark there, which I suppose you might
be, as well, if I tried to explain what makes me of Roman descent and not
Sicilian. Italians are highly parochial, and *Sicilian* has a notorious
frame of reference in the U.S. But I don't see how calling the country of
Iran Iran represents some kind of loss to the English language.
Joanne
Yusuf B Gursey
: Point taken, and I also realize this is going to an Iranian culture
: newsgroup, but I am not arguing about ethnic relevance, of which I'm
: ignorant when it comes to Middle Eastern frames of reference-- I was looking
: at the words themselves, and to my mind Iranian holds equal footing with
: Persian.
then change your mind.
: As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian, (though I
: suppose it is regional) I am in the dark there, which I suppose you might
you are in the dark?
Shiite persian speaks persian, and has the Shiite theological view, a
Sunni Arab speaks arabic and has a Sunni theological view. the relgious
affilaition is independent of the ethnic one.
: be, as well, if I tried to explain what makes me of Roman descent and not
I understand that.
: Sicilian. Italians are highly parochial, and *Sicilian* has a notorious
Joanne Marinelli
"Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
> In sci.lang Joanne Marinelli <Joz...@yahoo.com> wrote in
<xQ00d.336187$OB3.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
>
>
> : Point taken, and I also realize this is going to an Iranian culture
> : newsgroup, but I am not arguing about ethnic relevance, of which I'm
> : ignorant when it comes to Middle Eastern frames of reference-- I was
looking
> : at the words themselves, and to my mind Iranian holds equal footing with
> : Persian.
>
> then change your mind.
>
historical and tribal, given your information on that point. Iran is the
name of a modern day country which encompasses part of the ancient Persian
empire. Nothing for me to change.
Joanne
Yusuf B Gursey
: "Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
"Iran" came to be the name of the empire in their native language.
: empire. Nothing for me to change.
"Persia" was a central kingdom that lead the empire. it remained a
province on which the official language was based. "Iran" came to be the
name of the empire. "Persia" implies only persian speakers, "Iran" others
as well.
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
:> Kitay is from Eastern Turkic qIta:y , in the 11th cent and thereabouts
:> the domain of the Liao (originally qIta:*ny*, through sound changes in
:> Eastern Turkic it becomes qIta:y , xIta:y , qita:y etc.). Marco Polo
:> knew eastern turkic and probably had turkic interpreters so place
:> names appear in turkic garb and agree with western mongolian and
:> persian sources of that period or shortly after.
: FWIW, the Khitans probably spoke a Mongolic language.
yes. and qIta:*ny* becomes xitan in later mongolian.
:> China is form the Qin dynasty via sanskritor sogdian and persian.
meirman
Messinger" <h.mes...@comcast.net> posted:
>
>"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
>news:01g0k0hl7rp7um79c...@4ax.com...
>> However if the country has a nickname it is often possible to continue
>using
>> the nickname after the change of proper name.
>
>The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
>known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
>several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and some
Dinah Washington's oldest son was named after Ronald Reagan. She
hoped that he would become an actor. But he became a national hero
when he captured 132 prisoners during the invasion of Grudny, and was
killed the following day by a Grudnik sniper.
>have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
>Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
Me, too.
And for similar but not identical reasons, I refer to Oriole Park and
Ravens Stadium. This has already come in handy, as the sponsor of
Raven's Stadium went out of business and they renamed it. But my
nickname remained the same.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years
meirman
Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> posted:
And today the Republicans played politics with a resolution
commemorating the third anniversary of 9/11. Despite well-spoken
opposition, they insisted on inserting a "whereas" that said that the
war in Iraq was against terrorism.
Peter T. Daniels
> And today the Republicans played politics with a resolution
> commemorating the third anniversary of 9/11. Despite well-spoken
> opposition, they insisted on inserting a "whereas" that said that the
> war in Iraq was against terrorism.
They made it so. Captain Picard would be proud.
Peter T. Daniels
> As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian, (though I
Arabs aren't Persian. Anywhere in the world.
Joanne Marinelli
Okay, but I do not really know the difference between Arabic and Semitic as
used to refer to Middle East, or the Islamic world. I have the same problem
with Jewish, in that sense, whether it is a cultural distinction only, or if
there are racial characteristics as well which distinguish one from the
other.
Joanne
Yusuf B Gursey
: "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
: news:4140EA...@worldnet.att.net...
:> Joanne Marinelli wrote:
:>
:> > As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian,
: (though I
:>
:> Arabs aren't Persian. Anywhere in the world.
:> --
:> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
: Okay, but I do not really know the difference between Arabic and Semitic as
"Semitic" is just a language group.
"Arab" is an ethnic term, and the only sure definition is
self-identification, as well as acceptance by others as such.
most people who speak arabic (and think of standard arabic as the written
language) and think of themselves as arabs are accepted as such by other
arabs. Maltese is essntially derived from an arbaic dialect (roughly a
thousand years ago), but they do not think of themselves as such and use
their own vernacular as the standard, and they are not considered arabs.
: used to refer to Middle East, or the Islamic world. I have the same problem
meirman
Marinelli" <Joz...@yahoo.com> posted:
>
>"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:4140EA...@worldnet.att.net...
>> Joanne Marinelli wrote:
>>
>> > As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian,
>(though I
>>
>> Arabs aren't Persian. Anywhere in the world.
>> --
>> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>
>Okay, but I do not really know the difference between Arabic and Semitic as
Semitic is really, or originally, a language category, including
Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, maybe Amharic???, and some others that
probably aren't spoken anymore.
IIRC, antisemite and antisemitic were coined by a hate-filled German
"scientist" or "sociologist" or something to give a
scientific-sounding term to hatred of Jews, to make it seem more
palatable to others, as if it were based on science. AFAIK, this was
the first time a meaning attached to "semitic" was divorced from the
notion of language, because he only meant Jews, not Arabs or others
who spoke Semitic languages. I don't know if he spelled it with a
hyphen after "anti" or not, but I don't use a hyphen, because
separating the two parts of the word adds to the confusion. It makes
it seem like there were Semites to be against, or that he was against
all who spoke semitic languages. At least one of those is false, and
spelling it as one word without a hyphen lessens the impression a bit.
Once in a while, someone who has in mind the de facto meaning of
antisemite uses the word to describe someone who plots or wars against
Jews and also speaks a Semitic language, and some of those times, the
person so described will object that he is a Semite too.
There are loads of examples in English where a word means something
other than its etymology would imply, but rather than argue with
someone who says "I'm a Semite so I can't be antisemitic", I would
normally just change the word to "Jew-hater"^^^^. (Although even that
can have a problem in that the meaning is pretty clear (for example
man-hater means someone who hates men.), one might imagine that Jew is
an adjective there (as in boy-millionaire, child star, Greek king etc.
Most of these are not hyphenated, but of course sometimes people will
be listening and not reading. Even though the adjective form is
"Jewish", those who hate Jews seem to use "Jew" as an adjective, in
order to sound offensive, as in "Jew-salesman".)^^
>used to refer to Middle East, or the Islamic world. I have the same problem
>with Jewish, in that sense, whether it is a cultural distinction only, or if
>there are racial characteristics as well which distinguish one from the
>other.
Jews come in all races, and so there are no racial characteristics
that differentiate Jews from non-Jews. Any child of a Jewish mother
is a Jew. And anyone who learns and accepts the beliefs of Judaism,
and commits himself to their practice can become a Jew, and people of
all races have. There have been converts, varying numbers of them each
year, for the last 3300 years. And in fact, all the Israelites and
the mixed multitude of non-Israelites who left Egypt in the Exodus
converted at Mount Sinai to what is now called Judaism.
In the USA, even though one can find Jews of all skin and hair colors
and with all facial features, most Jews are Ashkenazim and most of
them have some similarity in appearance. In Israel, Ashkenazim are
only about half the Jewish population, and groups that are small in
number in the US are not so small proportionally. The diversity is
more noticeable at first than in the US, yet after a while not noticed
at all.
"Jewish" is a more versatile word than "Jew" and "Judaism". Although
there are those who would argue for a non-traditional definition of
the latter^^^, even they have definitions, and there is a clear
traditional definition of each word.
OTOH, "Jewish" can be used more broadly. It's not unreasonable (and
even if it were, people including me do it all the time) to talk about
Jewish food, or Jewish-style food, or a Jewish neighborhood, or a
Jewish sense of humor, or a Jewish outlook on the world (the last,
maybe the last two, is/are? undoubtedly influenced in whole or in part
by Judaism, but sometimes that's not obvious. Especially since
different parts of Judaism can affect various Jews more than other
parts, and other Jews less than those other parts.)
^^^Is this a proper use of "latter"? When there are 3 words and one
wants to refer to the second and third of them, is there a concise
way, without saying "second and third"?
^^^^Also worth pointing out that one is reasonably called a racist, or
a sexist, or an "agist" if s/he holds inaccurate negative stereotypes
about another race, or sex, or age group. And possibly even if he
holds inaccurate *positive* stereotypes about them. Although that
usually doesn't cause many problems, one could argue it's still racist
or sexist etc.
But the word antisemite does not include all people who hold
inaccurate negative or positive stereotypes about Jews. There are lots
of antisemites, but to qualify, they have to have stronger feelings
than many or most sexists and even racists**, who wish no harm. The
prefix "anti-" implies not just that they perceive inaccurately, but
that they are anti-Jews, opposed to Jews in some way or another, at
least in their hearts or minds, whether they act on it or not.
**I say that most sexists and racists wish no harm, because I believe
that the vast majority of Americans (and others, which exactly I don't
know) hold inaccurate stereotypes of the opposite sex or another race
-- they're sexists or racists -- but the majority of *them* might hate
their ex-spouse, if they have one, but don't wish harm on the entire
opposite sex or other race, and don't harbor ill-will against the
other sex or race, against even those they have never met and know
nothing about. The sexists would be sexist, but couldn't be called
anti-female or anti-male. The racists would be racist but most would
pity the other race or think it sad that they don't measure up. But
that doesn't mean they want them to do badly. (This is a major reason
why so many racists deny being racist. Some are just lying and some
are out of touch with their feelings or hiding from them, but many
figure since they don't *want* the other race to fail and don't do
anything to cause it to happen, they are not racist.
AFAIK there is no word parallel to sexist or racist that applies to
Jews or to members of any religion, or to most other groups as well.
But any group name can be prefixed by anti- in order to get an even
stronger meaning.
>Joanne
meirman
Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> posted:
>In sci.lang Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in <2N6dnWpcRPx...@comcast.com>:
>: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>:> Kitay is from Eastern Turkic qIta:y , in the 11th cent and thereabouts
>:> the domain of the Liao (originally qIta:*ny*, through sound changes in
>:> Eastern Turkic it becomes qIta:y , xIta:y , qita:y etc.). Marco Polo
What do the colons, : , mean? I don't think I've seen them before.
(the next to last letter in each of the three examples above appear as
colons.) TIA.
>:> knew eastern turkic and probably had turkic interpreters so place
>:> names appear in turkic garb and agree with western mongolian and
>:> persian sources of that period or shortly after.
>
>: FWIW, the Khitans probably spoke a Mongolic language.
>
>yes. and qIta:*ny* becomes xitan in later mongolian.
>
>:> China is form the Qin dynasty via sanskritor sogdian and persian.
>
>: Or Qin the tribe, Qin the Kingdom, or from <si> (silk), ...
>
Jacques Guy
> What do the colons, : , mean? I don't think I've seen them before.
> (the next to last letter in each of the three examples above appear as
> colons.) TIA.
When you use the International Phonetic Alphabet a colon that
the previous sound is pronounced long. So qita:y has a long "a"
Odysseus
>
> Joanne Marinelli wrote:
>
> > As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian, (though I
>
> Arabs aren't Persian. Anywhere in the world.
But just to be confusing, Persian, although an Indo-European
language, is written using the Arabic alphabet (with just a few
additional or modified characters IIANM).
--
Odysseus
Raymond S. Wise
To the average American, a "long vowel" means something very different from
what it means in the International Phonetic Alphabet. In the IPA, "long"
means the vowel takes more time to pronounce than the ordinary version of
the vowel. In the traditional American system, which was the first one that
I learned, and most likely the first one that meirman learned, a "long 'a'"
is the diphthong [eI], the "a" of "Kate," while a "short 'a'" is [&], the
"a" of "cat."
By the way, I was recently researching the pronunciation of the word "pin's"
(meaning "lapel pin or badge") in French. It's shown as being pronounced
[pins] in several dictionaries, although yesterday I came across one which
showed it as [pinz].
One of those dictionaries was particularly interesting in the light of a
discussion which had gone on in fr.lettres.langue.anglaise . I had asked if
the average French person knew IPA very well. The response was that he did
not. When researching the pronunciation of "pin's," I consulted André
Jouette's *Dictionnaire d'Orthographe et d'Expression Écrite,* published by
Dictionnaires Le Robert. Jouette decided to forgo the use of the IPA in his
dictionary, saying that it was "commode, mais malheureusement encore trop
peu connu du grand public," that is, "useful, but unfortunately still too
little known to the general public." He used his own system, in which [in]
represented IPA [E~] and [in'] represented IPA [in]. He used [s'] to
represent an "s" being pronounced in a final position. As a result, the
pronunciation which Jouette gave for "pin's" was [pin's']!
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
XyZmass::.
> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:03:52 GMT "Joanne
> Marinelli" <Joz...@yahoo.com> posted:
>
> >
> >"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> >news:4140EA...@worldnet.att.net...
> >>
> >> > As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian,
> >(though I
> >>
> >> Arabs aren't Persian. Anywhere in the world.
> >> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
> >
> >Okay, but I do not really know the difference between Arabic and Semitic as
>
> Semitic is really,
The Culture(Language, Ethnicity, possibly religion and Common
ancestery) commonly known as the Semites; are the Best of the
Successful African tribes who moved out of Africa and colonised and
started the Early civilisations....Winner's were Egyptians,
Babylonians and Assyerians and the Kikes were the ZITS!...frequently
squeezed from ALL sides sourrounding Them, and the Rise of the ARYANS
and Iranians.....
Read ALL ANCIENT NORTHERN EUROPEAN TRIBES whom Conqured the Southern
Iranian Platau, and Indian...etc.
The Only time World Peace was ever Achieved, was before the Iranians
elected a King for Jews and They had HIM NAILED and for over 2000
years of "religious wars"......The Family Feud still GOES ON
marg bar Israel/Saudi Arabia/Q8/UAE and of ourse IRAQ!!
the rest of U should Get the HELL OUT OF *OUR*WAY!
Respectfully,
AqA joon Saeid
PS: The Force behind the Term Persian to describe a cut down Iranian
Territory, is a Brain Wave of Mossad agent provocotures, and Helps
their Zionistan ambitions of from Neil to the Eupherateis....
A Kike Wet Dream....were the Wetness Signifies GOYEM ___BLOOD)))
The Zit Needs ANOTHER ____FINAL_____SQUEEZZE____
sorry about my misspellings....English is only my second language. PHP
is my first after a3embler programming
Peter Duncanson
>
>"Jewish" is a more versatile word than "Jew" and "Judaism". Although
>there are those who would argue for a non-traditional definition of
>the latter^^^, even they have definitions, and there is a clear
>traditional definition of each word.
>
<snip>
>^^^Is this a proper use of "latter"? When there are 3 words and one
>wants to refer to the second and third of them, is there a concise
>way, without saying "second and third"?
How about "the latter two"?
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u)
XyZmass::.
How about the "paternal" reasons?
where the third is the "child"'s reasons...3,4,6.7/9 reasons --- oo-1
0'10 -oo+1---
>
> --
> Peter Duncanson
> UK (posting from a.e.u)
Ps: where one starts @3 and expands to (oo) - 1
PPS: The Cause of ALL_Mental Reasons "lie" in the 1 & 2 or Paternal
reasons. Reasons, which are normally left behind until 1 reaches
parenthood.
1 being "male", as ALPHA_MALE, which is wot *III* is!#
2 The MADAR...the Mother...or until "man" has no Doxt@r, knows Not the
WOMAN!!
3 Chilld Start State 3 and UP
4 - man Child Starts Metamorphesis of "intellect", commonly known as
"mid life Crisis"...where a "man's" Brain EVOLVES BEYOND HIS CHILDREN
5- Come Down to Three. Stop Think and Move INTO Realms of The Yin and
Yang forces WITHIN
6789 Achive Balance
3,2 1 COMPLETE CIRCLE £_"_! when Not SHIFTED READS 3_2-1:::,;;.!3
.
SaEid!3+ 1E@MCC::||3||444
Please ignore Programatic Neuraal Invocations!...if *U* can that
is!!!?!
Where "one" is Cetified Mentally ill and the Concept of a
slef_fulfilling Prophecy....what comes after the MID and the LIFE of
one and a CRISIS!!
XyZmass::.
>
> .
>
> SaEid!3+ 1E@MCC::||3||444
NB: C grpahical see lines and see numbers see AAA see cut down to 444
see cut down see 777 and the see TTT...that is God of Gods and The
LORD AS well as $$$ or now non shifted, which is 444.
And the Lord of the Lords of the TIME_LORDS!!!XIII
Koorsoh my Son where R U?
Signed: The Father and an IRANIAN (some what Anglo, when Speaks) where
One's Mother's TONGUE is was Persian and shall be in ShAH & in AllAH
XyZmass::.
Peter T. Daniels
No, it's written with the Persian alphabet, which is an adaptation of
the Arabic and in turn formed the basis of many others throughout the
Muslim world.
It's not confusing in the least.
Yusuf B Gursey
> In alt.english.usage on Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:43:26 +0000 (UTC) Yusuf B
> Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> posted:
>
> >In sci.lang Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in <2N6dnWpcRPx...@comcast.com>:
> >: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> >:> Kitay is from Eastern Turkic qIta:y , in the 11th cent and thereabouts
> >:> the domain of the Liao (originally qIta:*ny*, through sound changes in
> >:> Eastern Turkic it becomes qIta:y , xIta:y , qita:y etc.). Marco Polo
>
> What do the colons, : , mean? I don't think I've seen them before.
> (the next to last letter in each of the three examples above appear as
> colons.) TIA.
long vowels. Turkic had them in the 11th. cent. later they disappeared.
it is attested for this particular word.
Yusuf B Gursey
so what?
Maltese, "although" a Semitic language and a derviative of Arabic, is
written in modified roman script.
the first attestations of Afrikaans (as opposed to Church Dutch) was
written in Arabic characters, by Cape Malays.
Yusuf B Gursey
: Odysseus <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message news:<41414E06...@yahoo-dot.ca>...
: the first attestations of Afrikaans (as opposed to Church Dutch) was
: written in Arabic characters, by Cape Malays.
or modified arabic (don't have my notes but perhaps arabic based malay)
Don Phillipson
news:870e846a.0409...@posting.google.com...
> I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
> name to Iran. All these names - Iran, Iraq, Pakistan - mean nothing to
> me.
Why should other countries' names be particularly
meaningful to you and me, rather than to the people
who live there?
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
meirman
(Yusuf B Gursey) posted:
>"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<gwU%c.69$jZ...@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>...
>> "meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote in message
>> news:g5tvj05gnn0qicult...@4ax.com...
>> > In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaro...@gmail.com
>> > (Igor Sklar) posted:
>> >
>> > > I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
>> > >name to Iran.
>> >
>> > Do you know what Persia was called before it was called Persia?
>> >
>> > Iran, or so I'm told.
>> >
>>
>> Well, near enough. The 'Persians' called 'Persia' 'Arian' in 'Persian'!
That's nice of you, but I think it's near but not near enough. :)
>
>Arian was the Parthian form, and the greek rendition from an Old Persian idiom.
>
>in Middle Persian (Sasanian) it was e:ra:n which became i:ra:n later.
I feel better now.
>>
>> Surreyman
Prai Jei
<870e846a.0409...@posting.google.com>:
> I wish that many old Russian names were retained in the language, for
> example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
> for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for
> the Nenets :)
>
> regards
But - surely - them places ain't Russian no more :)
We Welsh have exonyms for a few places in the country that occupies the
larger part of Great Britain, but I imagine very few Welsh would really
know where Caerloyw, Croesoswallt or Y Wern could be found in that country.
(Actually the Welsh name Croesoswallt explains the etymology of the rather
scrunched English name for this town.)
--
Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!
Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply
CB
"XyZmass::." <saeidb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message :
>
> sorry about my misspellings....English is only my second language. PHP
> is my first after a3embler programming
Oh, please don't apologise for your spelling. CDB
Pat Durkin
> meirman wrote:
>
> > And today the Republicans played politics with a resolution
> > commemorating the third anniversary of 9/11. Despite well-spoken
> > opposition, they insisted on inserting a "whereas" that said that the
> > war in Iraq was against terrorism.
Yeah.
They get so clever with words and mixed messages to fool the people that
they find themselves all discombobulated.
Cheney the other day talked about Saddam being hidden and perhaps dead in
the mountains of Pakistan. The announcer said he missed saying Osama's name
twice. The TV clip showed the master of ceremonies helping the VP realize
he had gotten it wrong.
Now, I know that extemporaneous speech does lend itself to spoonerisms and
other errors in reference, but sometimes it gets a bit teejous.
What was that old spoken song with these words? "Life gets teejous, don't
it?" It comes to mind along with the other two lyrics recently mentioned
here: "Cigareets n Whuskey n Wild Wild Women", and "Jack o' Diamonds".) I
think T Texas Tyler recited one of them (as well as the "Deck of Cards".)
Ben Zimmer
>
> What was that old spoken song with these words? "Life gets teejous, don't
> it?" It comes to mind along with the other two lyrics recently mentioned
> here: "Cigareets n Whuskey n Wild Wild Women", and "Jack o' Diamonds".) I
> think T Texas Tyler recited one of them (as well as the "Deck of Cards".)
"Life Gets Tee-Jus, Don't It", a novelty hit for Carson J. Robison in
1948. He followed it up the next year with "More And More Tee-Jus".
Robin Bignall
The performer's name doesn't ring any bells, but I remember giggling
over the lyrics when I was a kid. I just looked them up on
http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiTEEJUS.html
and they're as amusing now as they were when I was eight. I can still
hear that laconic voice...
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
Pat Durkin
"Pat Durkin" <durk...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:gqE0d.3743$az6....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
I did get the message providing me with the performer of "Teejous", thanks.
On the first matter, though, I must admit that the person confusing Saddam
with Osama was Rumsfeld (not Cheney), on Friday, before the National Press
Club. I was so discombobulated upon discovering my own error that I
sentenced myself to 20 minutes' worth of listening to him on C-Span. How
embarrassing, to confuse Bush/Cheney/Rummy the one with the others.
Timo Valtonen
> example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
> for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for
> the Nenets :)
>
;-)
tv
Igor Sklar
> yaro...@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
> news:<870e846a.0409...@posting.google.com>...
> > I wish that many old Russian names were retained in the language, for
> > example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
> > for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for
> > the Nenets :)
>
> Or Chukhoniya for Finland... or perhaps Chukhnostan ;-)
Finland used to be called Sum' (<-Suomi, from Fin. suo = 'bog'??), the
word regularly attested in Russian documents since the 11th century.
The Russian derogatary name for Ingrians, 'chukhno'( = chud' + -khno)
was invented by Novgorodians in the 15th century. It was first
attested in the 2nd chronicle of Pskov in 1444: "sem' chukhnov".
The current word Finland allegedly stems from the Gothic word for
hunters, but cf. OHG fenni ('bog'), Goth fani ('dirt').
The future capital of Estonia got its first name from a legendary
hero, Russ. Kolyvan', Est. Kalevipoeg or Fin. Kalevanpoika (cf Lith
kalvis = 'smith'). The first time Tallinn was mentioned in a written
source, was in 1154, on the world map of Al-Idrisi. Its name was
spelled by Al-Idrisi as Qaluwani, probably heard from some Russian
merchants. Kalyvan' was the Russian name for Tallinn until the 18th
century. Peter I called it either Revel or Kolyvan'.
regards
Hatunen
wrote:
>Timo Valtonen wrote...
>> yaro...@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
>> news:<870e846a.0409...@posting.google.com>...
>> > I wish that many old Russian names were retained in the language, for
>> > example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
>> > for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for
>> > the Nenets :)
>>
>> Or Chukhoniya for Finland... or perhaps Chukhnostan ;-)
>
>Finland used to be called Sum' (<-Suomi, from Fin. suo = 'bog'??), the
>word regularly attested in Russian documents since the 11th century.
"Fen" or "bog" being also, of course, the source of
Finnland/Finland (Fenland), and I believe, Roman "Fennia".
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Arpad
> Timo Valtonen wrote...
> > yaro...@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote...
> > > I wish that many old Russian names were retained in the language, for
> > > example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
> > > for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for
> > > the Nenets :)
> >
> > Or Chukhoniya for Finland... or perhaps Chukhnostan ;-)
>
> Finland used to be called Sum' (<-Suomi, from Fin. suo = 'bog'??), the
> word regularly attested in Russian documents since the 11th century.
>
> The Russian derogatary name for Ingrians, 'chukhno'( = chud' + -khno)
> was invented by Novgorodians in the 15th century. It was first
> attested in the 2nd chronicle of Pskov in 1444: "sem' chukhnov".
>
> The current word Finland allegedly stems from the Gothic word for
> hunters, but cf. OHG fenni ('bog'), Goth fani ('dirt').
Etymology of "Finland" was discussed here at length several years ago.
See http://tinyurl.com/5z39h
> The future capital of Estonia got its first name from a legendary
> hero, Russ. Kolyvan', Est. Kalevipoeg or Fin. Kalevanpoika (cf Lith
> kalvis = 'smith'). The first time Tallinn was mentioned in a written
> source, was in 1154, on the world map of Al-Idrisi. Its name was
> spelled by Al-Idrisi as Qaluwani, probably heard from some Russian
> merchants. Kalyvan' was the Russian name for Tallinn until the 18th
> century. Peter I called it either Revel or Kolyvan'.
Reval means "fox place". Tallinn means "Danish town". The city's
original name was allegedly Lindanisa (Linda's father) but Linda's
father was indeed Kalev (gen. Kalevan).
Arpad
Paul J Kriha
> "Igor Sklar" <yaro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:870e846a.0409...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > I wish that many old Russian names were retained in the language, for
> > example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
> > for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and
> > Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for the Nenets :)
Changing the subject ever so slightly....
Regarding Samoyeds, was the name really meant to mean 'self-eaters'
or was it 'lonely-eaters' or 'people-who-eat-alone'?
I'd find 'people-who-eat-alone' more likely case, but then I don't really
know anything about what Samoyeds were up to in them old days.
Paul JK
piotr panek
And Privislanskij Kraj for Poland :-)
Actually, I wouldn't mind if Russian called Poles "Lachi" or any
historical name until it weren't be "colonial" name. I cannot judge if
Kolyvan' is the old Ruthenian (as I defined Ruthenian in other posts)
name or the name into which Tallin was changed after Russian conquest in
the Northern War period... But since Poland was conquested by Russia for
a century, I am very sensitive (or maybe irritative :-)) in the Russian
place name topics :-)
piotrek
>
> tv
>
>
piotr panek
>
>
> Changing the subject ever so slightly....
>
> Regarding Samoyeds, was the name really meant to mean 'self-eaters'
> or was it 'lonely-eaters' or 'people-who-eat-alone'?
>
In old Polish poem "Rozmowa mistrza Polikarpa ze śmiercią" the Death has
a face "krzywa jak u samojedzi", with a footnote (from XX century of
course), that "samojedź" means a self-eater... So or the author of the
footnote is wrong, or "samojedź" really in old Slavic languages meant a
self-eater.
pzdr
piotrek
Sericinus hunter
>>"Igor Sklar" <yaro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:870e846a.0409...@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>I wish that many old Russian names were retained in the language, for
>>>example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
>>>for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and
>>>Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for the Nenets :)
>
> Changing the subject ever so slightly....
>
> Regarding Samoyeds, was the name really meant to mean 'self-eaters'
> or was it 'lonely-eaters' or 'people-who-eat-alone'?
Likely neither. Vasmer favors saami version of this word origin.
Igor Sklar
> Paul J Kriha wrote...
> > yaro...@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
> > news:<870e846a.0409...@posting.google.com>...
> > > example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
> > > for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for
> > > the Nenets :)
> >
> > Changing the subject ever so slightly....
> >
> > Regarding Samoyeds, was the name really meant to mean 'self-eaters'
> > or was it 'lonely-eaters' or 'people-who-eat-alone'?
>
> Likely neither. Vasmer favors saami version of this word origin.
True. But the folk etymology explaining the word as "self-eaters" is
nothing new. The first such explanation dates back to 1480s ("Skazanie
o chelovetseh neznaemyh v vostochnoi strane").
The word is first attested in the Russian Primary Chronicle for 1096
as samoyad' (literally, 'self-eaters': samo='self-' + yad='eat').
regards
Paul J Kriha
I wouldn't be surprised if the name was of Saami origin and
the Slavic speakers had interpreted it as 'self-eater' as soon
as they encountered it one thousand years ago.
Is there any evidence what-so-ever that Samoyeds engaged in
any kind of self-eating pasttime?
Paul JK
Jacques Guy
> Is there any evidence what-so-ever that Samoyeds engaged in
> any kind of self-eating pasttime?
Well, I suppose that "self-eating" means cannibalism, and
many societies have engaged in that. The Celts, the
Fijians, the Chinese, the Polynesians, the Aztecs, the
list just about covers the whole globe. Like a Tongan
friend once told me: "Oh, we never ate people! The
Fijians did". When I told that to my half-Tongan, half-
English dentist, he burst out laughing: "The Tongans
were as much cannibals as the Fijians!" Of course,
you have a cretin by the name Robert Ahrens whose
thesis got its 15 minutes of celebrity: "cannibalim
never existed". His argument? "It's all second-hand
evidence". In other words: no-one has ever been eaten
and lived to tell the tale. Do a Google search for
"Ahrens cannibalism" and see.
piotr panek
>>>
>>>Likely neither. Vasmer favors saami version of this word origin.
>>
>>True. But the folk etymology explaining the word as "self-eaters" is
>>nothing new. The first such explanation dates back to 1480s ("Skazanie
>>o chelovetseh neznaemyh v vostochnoi strane").
>>
>>The word is first attested in the Russian Primary Chronicle for 1096
>>as samoyad' (literally, 'self-eaters': samo='self-' + yad='eat').
>
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if the name was of Saami origin and
> the Slavic speakers had interpreted it as 'self-eater' as soon
> as they encountered it one thousand years ago.
Exactly. Even if the very origin wasn't "cannibals", probably it was a
simply association: "saami"-"samo jedi" or sth. like that. But on the
other hand, it explains the first part ("sam"), while "jedi" is not
explained. How it happend, that "sami" changed into "samojedi"
(self-eaters), but not into "samotnicy" (lonely people) or sth. like that?
>
> Is there any evidence what-so-ever that Samoyeds engaged in
> any kind of self-eating pasttime?
It is not important. They might have never proceed cannibalism, but
people who considered them barbarians (eg. Germans, Balts and Slavs or
even Tartars) would accuse them anyway...
>
> Paul JK
piotrek
Igor Sklar
> Even if the very origin wasn't "cannibals", probably it was a
> simply association: "saami"-"samo jedi" or sth. like that. But on the
> other hand, it explains the first part ("sam"), while "jedi" is not
> explained. How it happend, that "sami" changed into "samojedi"
Samojad' <- Saam. Norw. gen. "Same-aednam" <- Saam. "Same-jiennam", i.e. Lapland.
regards
piotr panek
Thank you. Seems reasonable.
So there are at least two possibilities:
- Proto-Eastern Slavs meet tribe/land called "samojednam" or sth. like
that, and adopted this name. Later (maybe very early) as this word
looked like "self-eater", they start to use word "samojed'" already used
as a name of tribe, in the meaning of "a cannibal".
- Proto-Eastern Slavs had had a word "samojed'" = "cannibal" and while
met Northern Finnic tribes called "samejennam", they thought they call
themselves "cannibals"
>
> regards
pzdr
piotrek
Igor Sklar
> So there are at least two possibilities:
> - Proto-Eastern Slavs meet tribe/land called "samojednam" or sth. like
> that, and adopted this name. Later (maybe very early) as this word
> looked like "self-eater", they start to use word "samojed'" already used
> as a name of tribe, in the meaning of "a cannibal".
I think so it was.
> - Proto-Eastern Slavs had had a word "samojed'" = "cannibal" and while
What you call "Proto-Eastern Slavs" called themselves Rus, and their
language is known as Old Russian. They didn't have "samojed" as a word
for cannibal. The traditional Russian word for cannibal is "lyudoed".
piotr panek
> piotr panek wrote...
>
>>So there are at least two possibilities:
>>- Proto-Eastern Slavs meet tribe/land called "samojednam" or sth. like
>>that, and adopted this name. Later (maybe very early) as this word
>>looked like "self-eater", they start to use word "samojed'" already used
>>as a name of tribe, in the meaning of "a cannibal".
>
>
> I think so it was.
>
>
>>- Proto-Eastern Slavs had had a word "samojed'" = "cannibal" and while
>
>
> What you call "Proto-Eastern Slavs" called themselves Rus, and their
> language is known as Old Russian.
In Polish we call them Ruś (country), Rusini (group of tribes). Into
international it was transformed as Ruthenia/ns, but I've had an
argument with Xenia about this word recently...
>They didn't have "samojed" as a word
> for cannibal. The traditional Russian word for cannibal is "lyudoed".
>
Well, the Polish one is "ludojad" (now it is a name of shark species),
but as I saw a word "samojedź" in medieval poem, I'm not sure which one
is older...
piotrek
Paul J Kriha
> > So there are at least two possibilities:
> > - Proto-Eastern Slavs meet tribe/land called "samojednam" or sth. like
> > that, and adopted this name. Later (maybe very early) as this word
> > looked like "self-eater", they start to use word "samojed'" already used
> > as a name of tribe, in the meaning of "a cannibal".
>
> I think so it was.
>
> > - Proto-Eastern Slavs had had a word "samojed'" = "cannibal" and while
>
> What you call "Proto-Eastern Slavs" called themselves Rus, and their
> language is known as Old Russian. They didn't have "samojed" as a word
> for cannibal. The traditional Russian word for cannibal is "lyudoed".
That is what I was thinking of. "lyudoed", "lidojed", or similar exist AFAIK
in all slavic languages and existed in OS. If Samoyeds were known as
cannibals it would be more natural to derive their name from that word.
It takes extra effort to imagine "samo-jed" mean the same as "lido-jed".
Paul JK
Bjorn Olsson
> In sci.lang Joanne Marinelli <Joz...@yahoo.com> wrote in <uC10d.571827$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
>
> : "Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
> : news:chq75i$tuo$1...@pcls4.std.com...
> :> In sci.lang Joanne Marinelli <Joz...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> <xQ00d.336187$OB3.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
> :>
> :>
> :> : Point taken, and I also realize this is going to an Iranian culture
> :> : newsgroup, but I am not arguing about ethnic relevance, of which I'm
> :> : ignorant when it comes to Middle Eastern frames of reference-- I was
> looking
> :> : at the words themselves, and to my mind Iranian holds equal footing with
> :> : Persian.
> :>
> :> then change your mind.
> :>
> : Give me a good enough reason to :) To my mind, Persia is classical,
> : historical and tribal, given your information on that point. Iran is the
> : name of a modern day country which encompasses part of the ancient Persian
>
> "Iran" came to be the name of the empire in their native language.
>
> : empire. Nothing for me to change.
>
> "Persia" was a central kingdom that lead the empire. it remained a
> province on which the official language was based. "Iran" came to be the
> name of the empire. "Persia" implies only persian speakers, "Iran" others
> as well.
Quite analogous to "Great Britain" versus "England". A Briton may not
be English-speaking and may not live in the English part of GB, but
England was (and is) a central kingdom that led the empire and remains
a province on which the official language is based.
Bjorn
Glenn Knickerbocker
>>Pat Durkin wrote:
>>"Life Gets Tee-Jus, Don't It", a novelty hit for Carson J. Robison
He lived down the road from my mom. My dad has collected a lot of his
recordings recently in studying WWII propaganda songs.
ŹR There's really no such thing as a Loser's Club. --Spot
http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/magictop.html Sorry! 1019
Yusuf B Gursey
good analogy.
>
> Bjorn
piotr panek
> "Persia" was a central kingdom that lead the empire. it remained a
> province on which the official language was based. "Iran" came to be the
> name of the empire. "Persia" implies only persian speakers, "Iran" others
> as well.
I agree (if you need my agreement from Central Europe :-) ) until you
speak about presence. But while speaking about warriors fighting against
Greeks near Marathon or Issos, I use term "Persians" despite the real
nationality of those people, be they people from Persia (sensu stricto),
Babilon, Parthia, Asia Minor or even Thracia. As long they were
underlies of the king of kings, king of Persians and Medes etc., they
were just Persians for me... I just use official name of "citizenship"
despite of actual, ie. ethnic, nationality.
regards
piotrek
Yusuf B Gursey
the official name (short form) in persian, at least since the
beginning of the Sasanid Empire, was Iran. Darius simply listed the
territories he was king of, starting with Persia, but called his
language, in an old form, Iranian. it was also the name of a wider
group of peoples speaking simialr languages, who had a privileged
position even if they were not subjects of the smaller unit called
Persia. for the Old Empire, Persia is not inapproproate. but the
Sasanians called their Empire Iran (rather e:ra:n) in short. so for
the late 2nd millenium kingdom, especially when it became clear that
expansion beyond present Iran was not possible. in the 19th cent. it
was Iran.