Have a dekko or a shufti at BBC7
MC
how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and 60s. To me
that's yesterday, but of course 40-50 years have passed and some things
have changed, notably the slang.
Just this morning I heard "dekko" and "shufti," and they stood out as
unusual to my ears, even though I'm pretty sure both were a part of my
own vocabulary back then. It's not that they've disappeared completely,
but they may be on the endangered list.
The accents and cadences don't seem to have changed as much.
--
�The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.�
Archilochus
Don Phillipson
news:copespaz-6A3E35...@mara100-84.onlink.net...
> I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting to hear
> how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and 60s. To me
> that's yesterday, but of course 40-50 years have passed and some things
> have changed, notably the slang.
>
> Just this morning I heard "dekko" and "shufti," and they stood out as
> unusual to my ears, even though I'm pretty sure both were a part of my
> own vocabulary back then. It's not that they've disappeared completely,
> but they may be on the endangered list.
These words from Hindustani are hardly slang -- more properly loan-words
everyday English took from India during the century of imperial
connection. Those with unique denotations persist (e.g. bungalow,
curry, pyjamas) while duplicates (dekko. shufti, jildi) are plausibly
temporary: but some went a century ago into the printed literature,
through Kipling's poem Gunga Din and the like. Sailors' jargon
probably behaves similarly (cf. learning the ropes, doldrums,
three sheets to the wind etc.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
MC
"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
I did know where they came from, and of course you're right. They are
loan words.
But they do seem to me to belong in the slang camp. They are certainly
informal English, rather than mainstream, don't you think?
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>"MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>news:copespaz-6A3E35...@mara100-84.onlink.net...
>
>> I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting to hear
>> how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and 60s. To me
>> that's yesterday, but of course 40-50 years have passed and some things
>> have changed, notably the slang.
>>
>> Just this morning I heard "dekko" and "shufti," and they stood out as
>> unusual to my ears, even though I'm pretty sure both were a part of my
>> own vocabulary back then. It's not that they've disappeared completely,
>> but they may be on the endangered list.
>
>These words from Hindustani are hardly slang -- more properly loan-words
>everyday English took from India during the century of imperial
>connection.
I checked the etymologies in OED:
dekko
[f. Hind. dekho, imperative of dekhn{amac} to look: cf. DECK n.2]
shufti
[f. Arab. {shacek}ufti have you seen?, f. {shacek}{amac}f to see.]
I don't think I've ever met "deck, n.2":
colloq. (orig. Anglo-Indian).
[ad. Hind. dekha sight, dekhn{amac} to see, look at.]
A look, peep. Cf. DEKKO.
The most recenr quotation for that:
1951 E. MILNE in J. Marriott Best One-Act Plays of 1950-51 (1952) 99
Crickey, have a deck at Ronald Colman!
> Those with unique denotations persist (e.g. bungalow,
>curry, pyjamas) while duplicates (dekko. shufti, jildi) are plausibly
>temporary: but some went a century ago into the printed literature,
>through Kipling's poem Gunga Din and the like. Sailors' jargon
>probably behaves similarly (cf. learning the ropes, doldrums,
>three sheets to the wind etc.)
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
James Silverton
Some sailors' jargon has become mainstream as have Hindi words like
bungalow but it has been many years since I heard anyone naturally using
"dekko" and "shufti". I remember the words being used by ex-soldiers,
many of whom had been in India. I had met "jildi" (or do I remember
jaldi? ) because of family connections with India but I don't think I
have heard it used except perhaps in movies set in the days of the Raj.
In such movies, it usually seems duplicated for emphasis as "jildi,
jildi!".
An alternative word for quickly, like jildi, is the Hawaiian
"wiki-wiki", which has rapidly become widely used as in "wiki"s or
Wikipedia. I wonder how long it will last.?
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
HVS
> I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting
> to hear how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and
> 60s. To me that's yesterday, but of course 40-50 years have
> passed and some things have changed, notably the slang.
>
> Just this morning I heard "dekko" and "shufti," and they stood
> out as unusual to my ears, even though I'm pretty sure both were
> a part of my own vocabulary back then. It's not that they've
> disappeared completely, but they may be on the endangered list.
I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but
only from a restricted age group. "Recky" -- (?sp "reccy") -- still
seems to be relatively common, though.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Pat Durkin
"HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9BFF94DB...@news.albasani.net...
But "reccy (or o)" is for reconnaissance, isn't it? A straightforward
shortening of a standard military word, and was used among US soldiers.
But maybe that was by infection from being stationed in England in WWI?
It may be very dated army slang.
I recall (in my very vague way) having seen "reccy-deccy" in some one or
another novel.
Don Phillipson
news:Xns9BFF94DB...@news.albasani.net...
> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but
> only from a restricted age group.
Compulsory military service may be the vector. Most Britons
born between1890 and about 1938 served in uniform for 18
months or more, mostly in the army, and army lingo had
adopted much Hindustani and Arabic street vocabulary (e.g.
bint for woman) which soldiers picked up even if they never left
British shores. Most Americans born 1890 to 1950 served similarly
so the US military may have transmitted into civilian speech words
and abbreviations like E.T.A., click (for kilometre) and so on.
For the gradual disappearance of words when their source dries
up, Latinate English may provide a precedent. Up to about 1960
Oxford and Cambridge required Latin at GCE Ordinary level as a
condition of admission, so Latin was taught in nearly all secondary
schools and compulsory for those in the academic stream. In
the everyday language, Latin was reinforced by sundry popular
quotations, law Latin and so on -- which became in the late 20th
century scarcer, even unpopular as indicators of pretension or
affectation, and went out of everyday use.
Mike Lyle
I spell it "recce". "Shufti" is alive and well in another thread here
today; and I hear "have a deck", short for (and now, I think, more
frequent than) "have a dekko/dekho" quite often from my children's
generation. See also "a butcher's" and "a butch".
--
Mike.
Harry Lippitz
> unusual to my ears, even though I'm pretty sure both were a part of my
> own vocabulary back then.
"Shufti" is also from the Arabic language, meaning "show me"
"Shuf" to show
"A-shufack" = I'll show you (fighting talk)
I always thought it was one of those words that soldiers in the 40's brought
back from the Middle East, along with words, such as "bint" (girl), and
"chai" (tea).
the Omrud
> "HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Xns9BFF94DB...@news.albasani.net...
>
>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but
>> only from a restricted age group.
>
> Compulsory military service may be the vector. Most Britons
> born between1890 and about 1938 served in uniform for 18
> months or more,
My mother and her own mother and sisters must have wormed their way out
of it somehow.
> mostly in the army, and army lingo had
> adopted much Hindustani and Arabic street vocabulary (e.g.
> bint for woman) which soldiers picked up even if they never left
> British shores.
Indeed. A significant number of light entertainment folk came to the
BBC from the services. All the Goons, for example.
--
David
Irwell
> Don Phillipson wrote:
>> "HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9BFF94DB...@news.albasani.net...
>>
>>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but
>>> only from a restricted age group.
>>
>> Compulsory military service may be the vector. Most Britons
>> born between1890 and about 1938 served in uniform for 18
>> months or more,
>
> My mother and her own mother and sisters must have wormed their way out
> of it somehow.
Most of the women volunteered, like Betty joined the ATS, seems she
really enjoyed the freedom from Windsor.
Django Cat
My mother (born 1918) was a Wren/WRN; I'm not sure about her three
sisters, but I think they all joined one branch of the services or
other for at least part of WW2.
DC
--
the Omrud
I doubt "most", especially in the first war. Many women were engaged in
war work of some sort - munitions, land army, WVS, but "served in
uniform" indicates membership of the armed services.
--
David
Irwell
OK, most of the women in uniform in WW2 were volunteers.
The land army had a uniform, green jumpers and jodhpurs, the WVS also had a
uniform as did the AFS/NFS (Fire services), the various nursing yeomanry
groups, ARP, NAAFi, etc.
Robert Bannister
> Don Phillipson wrote:
>> "HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9BFF94DB...@news.albasani.net...
>>
>>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but
>>> only from a restricted age group.
>>
>> Compulsory military service may be the vector. Most Britons
>> born between1890 and about 1938 served in uniform for 18
>> months or more,
>
> My mother and her own mother and sisters must have wormed their way out
> of it somehow.
Moreover, the 1938 date doesn't work for me - I was born in 1940 and
approximately half of my classmates were called up. I missed out or
escaped only by a few months, so I assume the date was 1939.
--
Rob Bannister
contrex
> Moreover, the 1938 date doesn't work for me - I was born in 1940 and
> approximately half of my classmates were called up. I missed out or
> escaped only by a few months, so I assume the date was 1939.
When the ending of National Service was being planned it was decided
that only those born up to 1 September 1939 were to be called up. The
last man called up for National Service, Private Fred Turner of the
Army Catering Corps, was discharged on 7 May 1963. However, the last
National Serviceman was Lieutenant Richard Vaughan of the Royal Army
Pay Corps, who was discharged six days later on 13 May 1963.
contrex
> "Shufti" is also from the Arabic language, meaning "show me"
>
> I always thought it was one of those words that soldiers in the 40's brought
> back from the Middle East, along with words, such as "bint" (girl), and
> "chai" (tea).
Earlier, I think. 'Shufti' seems to have entered British English at
the time of T.E. Lawrence and the Arab Revolt. Sir Richard Burton used
"bint" in 1855. I would date "chai" back to the days of the East India
Company at least. When tea was first drunk in England around 1580 it
was called "chaa".
Chris R
the Omrud opined:
Peter Cook: "We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole
tone of the war. Get up in a crate, Perkins, pop over to Bremen, take a
shufti, don't come back."
Chris R
the Omrud
So, it's "au revoir", Sir.
--
David
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On 02 May 2009, MC wrote
>
>> I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting
>> to hear how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and
>> 60s. To me that's yesterday, but of course 40-50 years have
>> passed and some things have changed, notably the slang.
>>
>> Just this morning I heard "dekko" and "shufti," and they stood
>> out as unusual to my ears, even though I'm pretty sure both were
>> a part of my own vocabulary back then. It's not that they've
>> disappeared completely, but they may be on the endangered list.
>
> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko"
Interesting you say this, and others agree with you, because in my
experience it's the other way round. "Dekko" was once a normal part of
my vocabulary, and I wouldn't fall off my chair in surprise if I heard
it today, but although I knew what "shufti" meant I don't think it was
ever a word I would have used.
--
athel
Chris R
Robert Bannister
I would agree with you, in that "dekko" was a normal part of my school
vocabulary, but I doubt if I used it much after those days, nor have I
heard it. On the other hand, I have heard "shufti" - not often, but I
have heard it fairly recently.
--
Rob Bannister
MC
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
For some reason associate "shufti" with a Cockney accent. If that is
more than a subjective impression, it might not have gained much of a
foothold outside London - possible?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On 2 May, 22:29, "Harry Lippitz" <johnsmith@micro$oft.com> wrote:
>
>> "Shufti" is also from the Arabic language, meaning "show me"
>>
>> I always thought it was one of those words that soldiers in the
>> 40's brought back from the Middle East, along with words, such as
>> "bint" (girl), and "chai" (tea).
>
> Earlier, I think. 'Shufti' seems to have entered British English at
> the time of T.E. Lawrence and the Arab Revolt.
The OED only cites it to 1943, and Google Books doesn't appear to have
any hits before 1963. Is it really in Lawrence (as something said in
English)?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If to "man" a phone implies handing
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it over to a person of the male
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |gender, then to "monitor" it
|suggests handing it over to a
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |lizard.
(650)857-7572 | Rohan Oberoi
Cece
Seeing anyone other than family was a change! Pater came to visit
once, though, during the final tests. He somehow sneaked the
carburetor out and waited for her to figure out why the vehicle
wouldn't start!
Robin Bignall
wrote:
Both of them were known to me when I was growing up in the Midlands
(1940s). I haven't heard either of them used in ages, except on the
radio or in films.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Mike Mooney
wrote:
>
> I spell it "recce". "Shufti" is alive and well in another thread here
> today; and I hear "have a deck", short for (and now, I think, more
> frequent than) "have a dekko/dekho" quite often from my children's
> generation. See also "a butcher's" and "a butch".
>
I'd spell it "recce", too.
"Have a shufti", "have a decko" and "have a butcher's" are all
synonymous, but whereas (as stated upthread) "decko" and "shufti" are
loan words, "butcher's" is rhyming slang - "butcher's hook" = "look".
Mike M
Nick
I know I used "recce" a few weeks ago. We'd moored the boat and I took
the children for a walk round the village, telling my brother - who was
joining me for a drink later - that I'd "recce the pubs on the way past".
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
contrex
> > Earlier, I think. 'Shufti' seems to have entered British English at
> > the time of T.E. Lawrence and the Arab Revolt.
>
> The OED only cites it to 1943, and Google Books doesn't appear to have
> any hits before 1963. Is it really in Lawrence (as something said in
> English)?
I said "at the time of Lawrence"; I don't know if he actually used it.
Eric Partridge spells it "shufty" and dates it to around 1925 on page
1065 of his "Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English" (visible
on Google Books) and says that it started life with Royal Air Force
stations in that area about 1925, but that it had spread to the Army
by 1930. This seems probable, to judge from the extent of its use in
World War Two, and the number of compounds it spawned, none of which
seem to have survived the end of the War. Among them, Partridge
mentions shuftiscope, which had a number of senses, one of which he
defines with ponderous delicacy as “an instrument used by doctors for
research in cases of dysentery”.
"Arabic contributions to the English vocabulary" by Habeeb Salloum
gives "shufty, circa 1925".
stephanie...@telenet.be
MYM (BrE, originally from Sunderland) uses 'dekko' quite regularly. I
inquired where, when, and how he acquired its usage, as he certainly
had nothing to do with UK military service, being born too late for
that to have been obligatory, He thought for a while, and responded,
not without some mild embarrassment, '...Biggles, I think.'
So it may depend on your childhood reading habits.
cheers,
S in B