IHS vs. IHSV
mm
signo vinces ?
--
Posters should say where they live, and for which
area they are asking questions. I have lived in
Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 10 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years
alan
"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:7bhn55lir9bj8daqa...@4ax.com...
> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc
> signo vinces ?
Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in hoc
signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus, Savior
of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and engraved
on headstones.
IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can be found
on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS . . .
mm
wrote:
Wow. It pays to ask. I've actually never seen the second one in
initial form, maybe, now that I think about it. I think I learned it,
in non-initial form, in Latin class, but maybe not.
I always start with an open-ended question, but now I realize none of
my follow-up questions are applicable.
CDB
> "mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:7bhn55lir9bj8daqa...@4ax.com...
>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In
>> hoc signo vinces ?
>
> Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in
> hoc signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator"
> ("Jesus, Savior of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on
> altar cloths and engraved on headstones.
Typo there. Should be "Hominum", "of men".
> IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can
> be found on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS
> . . .
True, but it's probably not a coincidence that the letters IHS and the
first three letters of IHSV, taking "S" for sigma, are the first three
letters of IHSOUS, Jesus in Greek.
mm
wrote:
>
>"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>news:7bhn55lir9bj8daqa...@4ax.com...
>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc
>> signo vinces ?
>
>Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in hoc
>signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus, Savior
>of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and engraved
>on headstones.
Well I shouldn't bite the hand that feeds me but I feel
intellectually? obliged to report that I looked this up** and got a
hit in wikipedia where it seem to say iiuc that this is what they call
a backronym. An interpretation that arose later***. They say it is
really the Latinized version of the first three Greek letters of
Jesus's name, Iota, eta, sigma. The sigma got changed to an S which
is fine, but the eta got changed to an H, because that's what it looks
like, iiuc, and that is the origin of IHS, according to the hidden
gnomes of wikipedia.
Another page
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006PZM
says what you say, but a comment on that disagrees. It also suggests
that the S in IHS represents not the first s but the last letter in
Jesus's name.
** and again noted a strange aspect of google, which is certainly
relevant on english usage newsgroups, where counting the number of
hits is a fairly common practice to show how common usage is. I
entered Iesus Hominem Salvator and got about 5300 hits and what
turns out to be the strange question, "Do you mean Iesus Hominum
Salvator?" So eventually I clicked on that, and got about 5260 hits,
almost the same number, but all of them this time seemed to be spelled
that way. I went back to the first search and many of the hits were
also spelled hominum. In fact I had to scroll down 3 or 4 pages to
find one that spelled it with an e. My point is not that hominum is
the correct spelling -- I don't know -- but that the number of hits
included both spellings, at least in the case of hominem.
Maybe at first google search only looked for exact matches, but now it
lists both that and common non-matches (according to rules I still
don't know), so one can't really rely on a google count to determine
how common usage is anymore. There were problems doing this before,
of course, but now they seem overwhelming. Am I right? Is there
something I've left out?
Hmmm. I didn't put the three words in double quotes. Dang. Okay, in
quotes, the three words with hominem got 20 hits. With u it got 1240
hits. I usually don't include quotes. I still think finding
alternate spellings is less than 10 years old.
>
>IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can be found
>on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS . . .
Wow. It pays to ask. I've actually never seen the second one in
initial form, maybe, now that I think about it. I think I learned it,
in non-initial form, in Latin class, but maybe not.
I always start with an open-ended question, but now I realize none of
my follow-up questions are applicable.
mm
wrote:
>
BTW, it would have taken me far longer to check this out when I still
though IHS was short of IHSV. Thanks a lot.
alan
> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:04:00 -0700, "alan" <in_fla...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>>news:7bhn55lir9bj8daqa...@4ax.com...
>>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc
>>> signo vinces ?
>>
>>Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in hoc
>>signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus,
>>Savior
>>of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and
>>engraved
>>on headstones.
>
> Well I shouldn't bite the hand that feeds me but I feel
> intellectually? obliged to report that I looked this up** and got a
> hit in wikipedia where it seem to say iiuc that this is what they call
> a backronym. An interpretation that arose later***. They say it is
> really the Latinized version of the first three Greek letters of
> Jesus's name, Iota, eta, sigma. The sigma got changed to an S which
> is fine, but the eta got changed to an H, because that's what it looks
> like, iiuc, and that is the origin of IHS, according to the hidden
> gnomes of wikipedia.
I hadn't known that --- thanks for having taken it a step further . . .
Steve Hayes
>What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc
>signo vinces ?
IHS is usually interpeted to mean Iesus Hominem Salvator (or soemthing like
that) -- Jesus, Saviour of Men (male and female).
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
>On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:04:00 -0700, "alan" <in_fla...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>>news:7bhn55lir9bj8daqa...@4ax.com...
>>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc
>>> signo vinces ?
>>
>>Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in hoc
>>signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus, Savior
>>of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and engraved
>>on headstones.
>
>Well I shouldn't bite the hand that feeds me but I feel
>intellectually? obliged to report that I looked this up** and got a
>hit in wikipedia where it seem to say iiuc that this is what they call
>a backronym. An interpretation that arose later***. They say it is
>really the Latinized version of the first three Greek letters of
>Jesus's name, Iota, eta, sigma. The sigma got changed to an S which
>is fine, but the eta got changed to an H, because that's what it looks
>like, iiuc, and that is the origin of IHS, according to the hidden
>gnomes of wikipedia.
That's quite possible.
The bread used for communion in Orthodox Churches is stamped with
IC|XC
__ __
NI|KA
Which stands for "Jesus Christ conquers"
In western churches you will sometimes see the letters INRI on a cross, and in
eastern churches INBI, the former being Latin and the latter Greek for "Jesus
Christ, King of the Jews", the inscription that Pilate is said to have put on
the cross on which Jesus was crucified. He also wrote it in Hebrew, but that
isn't often seen.
Until recently the Roman Catholic Church believed firmly that only those three
languages could be used in church servicices, and it was only in the 1960s
that they began using other languages.
bert
> alan wrote:
> > "mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
I am sure that it is a mere coincidence. Yes, the Greek capital 'e'
is shaped exactly like the Roman capital H, but to perceive any other
link between their uses is to construct an modern urban legend.
The Greek capital 'r' is shaped exactly like the Roman capital P.
Now, were you to find a mystical cross-language connection there,
as well as the e/H one, there might be something worth exploring.
--
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> [ ... ]
> In western churches you will sometimes see the letters INRI on a cross, and in
> eastern churches INBI, the former being Latin and the latter Greek for "Jesus
> Christ, King of the Jews", the inscription that Pilate is said to have put on
> the cross on which Jesus was crucified.
I doubt if Pilate had come across the word "Christ", but anyway the N
refers to Nazareth.
--
athel
Don Phillipson
> >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc
> >> signo vinces ?
> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:04:00 -0700, "alan" <in_fla...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in hoc
> >signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus,
Savior
> >of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and
engraved
> >on headstones.
IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the
Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross
in the sky before a battle. Romans supposedly took such
auguries or visions seriously, this message being that if
Constantine adopted the new religion of Christianity he
would win the battle, So he did profess the religion, won
the battle, and then made Christianity the state religion
of the Roman empire. (His mother years earlier became
a Christian, supposedly spent years hunting for relics
of the True Cross, and was later honoured as St. Monica.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
CDB
> On 14 July, 01:54, "CDB" wrote:
>> alan wrote:
>>>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In
>>>> hoc signo vinces ?
>>> Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in
>>> hoc signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator"
>>> ("Jesus, Savior of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on
>>> altar cloths and engraved on headstones.
>> Typo there. Should be "Hominum", "of men".
>>> IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can
>>> be found on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS
>>> . . .
>>
>> True, but it's probably not a coincidence that the letters IHS and
>> the first three letters of IHSV, taking "S" for sigma, are the
>> first three letters of IHSOUS, Jesus in Greek.
> I am sure that it is a mere coincidence. Yes, the Greek capital 'e'
> is shaped exactly like the Roman capital H, but to perceive any
> other link between their uses is to construct an modern urban
> legend.
> The Greek capital 'r' is shaped exactly like the Roman capital P.
> Now, were you to find a mystical cross-language connection there,
> as well as the e/H one, there might be something worth exploring.
These are to some extent matters of personal opinion, of which we are
all entitled to at least one. In my opinion, there is a lot of
mystical cross-language connection going around. Your speculation
above made me wonder if the monogram for "Christ", Chi-Rho, which
resembles the Latin letters PX written together*, was ever interpreted
as the Latin word "Pax". According to this article by James Stevens
Curl from _A Dictionary of Architecture and Landscape Architecture_,
it has been; and there is some other information there about other
various interpretations of religious initialisms.
I note that it appears from this that the letters IHS are interpreted,
not as the first three letters of IHSOUS, as I had said, but as the
first two letters and the last one.
*Chrismon*. The sacred monogram, an arrangement of the first three
Greek letters (Chi, Rho, and Iota) of XPI?TO? Christ's name, also
called Christogram, which suggests the Cross as well as pax (peace).
Another version is, the initial letters of I??o??? X????o? ( Jesus
Christ) and the first two letters of ?????? the Greek for 'fish', a
symbol of the Faith and of Baptism. Other sacred symbols associated
with Christ are A (Alpha) and ? (Omega)-the Beginning and the End;
INRI (Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum (Jesus of Nazareth King of the
Jews), or In Nobis Regnat Iesus (Jesus Reigns In Us), or Igne Natura
Renovatur Integra (Nature is Regenerated by Fire-referring to the
Spirit and to Redemption) ); IHS (variously explained as the first two
and last Greek capital letters of IH?OY?, Christ's first name (IHC,
the Iota, Eta, and Sigma, given as ?, C, or the Latin S), Iesus
Hominum Salvator (Jesus the Saviour of Man), In Hoc Signo (In This
Sign [Thou Shalt Conquer]), and In Hac Salus (In This [Cross] is
Salvation).
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O1-Chrismon.html
___________
* This is the symbol I'm talking about:
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Christ+Xp&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=
Pat Durkin
news:h3hrr3$b12$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca
>
>
> IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the
> Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross
> in the sky before a battle. Romans supposedly took such
> auguries or visions seriously, this message being that if
> Constantine adopted the new religion of Christianity he
> would win the battle, So he did profess the religion, won
> the battle, and then made Christianity the state religion
> of the Roman empire. (His mother years earlier became
> a Christian, supposedly spent years hunting for relics
> of the True Cross, and was later honoured as St. Monica.)
I thought it was St Helena, and she was supposed to have found it (the
true cross).
But it's been a long, long time, and, at the moment, relying on my poor
memory is easier that Googling.
Have a good day!
mm
wrote:
>
>*Chrismon*. The sacred monogram, an arrangement of the first three
>Greek letters (Chi, Rho, and Iota) of XPI?TO? Christ's name, also
I know you're quoting the URL below. It surprises me to see XPI?TO?
referred to as a name. Isn't it a title, or something of that sort?
>called Christogram, which suggests the Cross as well as pax (peace).
>Another version is, the initial letters of I??o??? X????o? ( Jesus
>Christ) and the first two letters of ?????? the Greek for 'fish', a
>symbol of the Faith and of Baptism. Other sacred symbols associated
>with Christ are A (Alpha) and ? (Omega)-the Beginning and the End;
>INRI (Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum (Jesus of Nazareth King of the
>Jews), or In Nobis Regnat Iesus (Jesus Reigns In Us), or Igne Natura
>Renovatur Integra (Nature is Regenerated by Fire-referring to the
>Spirit and to Redemption) ); IHS (variously explained as the first two
>and last Greek capital letters of IH?OY?, Christ's first name (IHC,
>the Iota, Eta, and Sigma, given as ?, C, or the Latin S), Iesus
>Hominum Salvator (Jesus the Saviour of Man), In Hoc Signo (In This
>Sign [Thou Shalt Conquer]), and In Hac Salus (In This [Cross] is
>Salvation).
>
>http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O1-Chrismon.html
--
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In western churches you will sometimes see the letters INRI on a
> cross, and in eastern churches INBI, the former being Latin and the
> latter Greek for "Jesus Christ, King of the Jews",
"Iesus Nazarenus rex Iudaeorum". Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.
> the inscription that Pilate is said to have put on the cross on
> which Jesus was crucified. He also wrote it in Hebrew, but that
> isn't often seen.
Although that "Hebrew" would probably have been Aramaic, the language
of the people. Some versions of John 20:16 (in Greek as well as in
English) identify "Rabboni" as "Hebrew" when it is, in fact, Aramaic.
Looking at
http://mlbible.com/john/20-16.htm
http://scripturetext.com/john/20-16.htm
it's interesting that most of the languages I can puzzle through are
split on whether "in Hebrew" is there. In English, only the New
International Version says "in Aramaic", surprisingly without a
footnote to the effect that that's not actually what the source text
says. Several other places that the source texts (and other
translations) have "Hebrew", the NIV has "Aramaic".
> Until recently the Roman Catholic Church believed firmly that only
> those three languages could be used in church servicices, and it was
> only in the 1960s that they began using other languages.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Just sit right back
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | and you'll hear a tale,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | a tale of the Stanford red
|That started when a little boy
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | named Leland did drop dead
(650)857-7572
John Kane
> "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:h3hrr3$b12$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca
>
> > "mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> >news:clnn5559n6n22ta9t...@4ax.com...
>
> > IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the
> > Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross
> > in the sky before a battle. Romans supposedly took such
> > auguries or visions seriously, this message being that if
> > Constantine adopted the new religion of Christianity he
> > would win the battle, So he did profess the religion, won
> > the battle, and then made Christianity the state religion
> > of the Roman empire. (His mother years earlier became
> > a Christian, supposedly spent years hunting for relics
> > of the True Cross, and was later honoured as St. Monica.)
>
> I thought it was St Helena, and she was supposed to have found it (the> true cross).
I believe you are right about her name. I've always been a bit
suspicious of the True Cross story. I can just see a few people in
Jerulselem upon hearing of Helena's search, thinking, " Humm, I got
those old 2X4's in the shed. I wonder...."
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
CDB
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:05:47 -0400, "CDB" wrote:
>> *Chrismon*. The sacred monogram, an arrangement of the first three
>> Greek letters (Chi, Rho, and Iota) of XPI?TO? Christ's name, also
> I know you're quoting the URL below. It surprises me to see XPI?TO?
> referred to as a name. Isn't it a title, or something of that sort?
Yes, "ho Christos", Greek for "the Messiah". When I was a kid, I
assumed along with everybody else that it was his family name (middle
initial "H").
I'm not sure what happened to produce all those question marks for
Greek letters. I have them too, and yet, when I passed the text
through Notepad to clean off attachments, I got the original version
both there and in the posting as I pasted and sent it. Sorry; but the
complete version is available at the URL.
Pat Durkin
news:536b4794-6711-4450...@l31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com
Well, some people will believe anything. Even that the image of the
Cross appeared in the sky with either a voice or that message in lights.
IHSV.
Well, whatever it takes to win makes for nice stories.
Don Phillipson
news:a38o55588oqnsqafj...@4ax.com...
> IHS is usually interpeted to mean Iesus Hominem Salvator (or soemthing
like
> that) -- Jesus, Saviour of Men (male and female).
Nowadays better translated as "savior of mankind," an old
rubric that suits today's hypersensitivity about gendered words.
Steve Hayes
Quite right.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the
>Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross
>in the sky before a battle. Romans supposedly took such
>auguries or visions seriously, this message being that if
>Constantine adopted the new religion of Christianity he
>would win the battle, So he did profess the religion, won
>the battle, and then made Christianity the state religion
>of the Roman empire. (His mother years earlier became
>a Christian, supposedly spent years hunting for relics
>of the True Cross, and was later honoured as St. Monica.)
Not quite.
It was Theodosius, about 50 years later, who made Christianity the state
religion. Constantine only made it legal, and not a criminal offence to be a
Christian.
His mother was Helen, Helena, Eleni, or however you want to spell it. She
started the fashion of making pilgrimages to Jerusalem, from which Christians
and Jews had been expelled several centuries earlier. She is associated with
Colchester, and Constantine may have been Albanian, or Illyrian, as it was
called in those days.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:a38o55588oqnsqafj...@4ax.com...
>
>> IHS is usually interpeted to mean Iesus Hominem Salvator (or soemthing
>like
>> that) -- Jesus, Saviour of Men (male and female).
>
>Nowadays better translated as "savior of mankind," an old
>rubric that suits today's hypersensitivity about gendered words.
Humankind, if you please.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:20:15 -0400, "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a38o55588oqnsqafj...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> IHS is usually interpeted to mean Iesus Hominem Salvator (or soemthing
>>like
>>> that) -- Jesus, Saviour of Men (male and female).
>>
>>Nowadays better translated as "savior of mankind," an old
>>rubric that suits today's hypersensitivity about gendered words.
>
> Humankind, if you please.
"Huperoffspringkind".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Those who would give up essential
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Liberty, to purchase a little
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |temporary Safety, deserve neither
|Liberty nor Safety.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Benjamin Franklin
(650)857-7572
Jerry Friedman
> "mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>
> news:clnn5559n6n22ta9t...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc
> > >> signo vinces ?
> > wrote:
> > >Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in hoc
> > >signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus,
> Savior
> > >of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and
> engraved
> > >on headstones.
>
> IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the
> Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross
> in the sky before a battle.
Many will recall the scene in the movie of /The Wizard of Oz/ where
the Wicked Witch of the West skywrites with her broom. Few, however,
know that the script originally called for her to cackle, "In hoc
signo, Winkies!" This was edited out as being over too many heads.
--
Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Many will recall the scene in the movie of /The Wizard of Oz/ where
>the Wicked Witch of the West skywrites with her broom. Few, however,
>know that the script originally called for her to cackle, "In hoc
>signo, Winkies!" This was edited out as being over too many heads.
Like the Philosopher's Stone?
Cece
>
> http://tinyurl.com/n692s5- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I haven't encountered most of those! IHS, in hoc signo vinces, Alpha
and Omega, ichthys and the fish sign, and the Chi-Rho, yes. Not the
others.
When I was a kid, the gate between sanctuary and the rest of the
church had the Chi-Rho with a Beta depending from it (one long line
was the vertical of the Rho and the Beta, with the Chi crossing it
between). The church was Christ the King Catholic Church.
"Christian," I was taught, was first heard in Antioch, to refer to
followers of the Anointed One. Sister Whichever noted that those who
used it may well have been poking fun, and a possible English
translation for those connotations could be "greaser."
CDB
> On Jul 14, 8:05 am, "CDB" <bellema...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> bert wrote:
>>> On 14 July, 01:54, "CDB" wrote:
>>>> alan wrote:
>>>>> "mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>>>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and
>>>>>> In hoc signo vinces ?
[differing interpretations of religious symbols].
>> (article by
>> James Stevens Curl from _A Dictionary of Architecture and
>> Landscape Architecture_:)
>> *Chrismon*. The sacred monogram, an arrangement of the first three
>> Greek letters (Chi, Rho, and Iota) of XPI?TO? Christ's name, also
>> called Christogram, which suggests the Cross as well as pax
>> (peace). Another version is, the initial letters of I??o???
>> X????o? ( Jesus Christ) and the first two letters of ?????? the
>> Greek for 'fish', a symbol of the Faith and of Baptism. Other
>> sacred symbols associated with Christ are A (Alpha) and ?
>> (Omega)-the Beginning and the End; INRI (Iesus Nazarenus Rex
>> Iudaeorum (Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews), or In Nobis Regnat
>> Iesus (Jesus Reigns In Us), or Igne Natura Renovatur Integra
>> (Nature is Regenerated by Fire-referring to the Spirit and to
>> Redemption) ); IHS (variously explained as the first two and last
>> Greek capital letters of IH?OY?, Christ's first name (IHC, the
>> Iota, Eta, and Sigma, given as ?, C, or the Latin S), Iesus
>> Hominum Salvator (Jesus the Saviour of Man), In Hoc Signo (In This
>> Sign [Thou Shalt Conquer]), and In Hac Salus (In This [Cross] is
>> Salvation).
>>
>> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O1-Chrismon.html
>>
>> ___________
>> * This is the symbol I'm talking about:
>>
>> http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Christ+Xp&btnG=Search+Images&g...
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/n692s5
> I haven't encountered most of those! IHS, in hoc signo vinces,
> Alpha and Omega, ichthys and the fish sign, and the Chi-Rho, yes.
> Not the others.
> When I was a kid, the gate between sanctuary and the rest of the
> church had the Chi-Rho with a Beta depending from it (one long line
> was the vertical of the Rho and the Beta, with the Chi crossing it
> between). The church was Christ the King Catholic Church.
The line and the "B" may have been Greek iota and beta, for "Ioudai�n
Basile�s", King of the Jews, like the BI in INBI that Steve has
mentioned elsethread.
> "Christian," I was taught, was first heard in Antioch, to refer to
> followers of the Anointed One. Sister Whichever noted that those
> who used it may well have been poking fun, and a possible English
> translation for those connotations could be "greaser."
I think I recall that Robert Graves maintained that they called them
"Chrestians" (or the equivalent), deriving it from "chrestos"* and
meaning the followers of the Fool. I was a teenager when I (think I)
read that, and didn't -- couldn't, really -- check up on the poet, but
I find on looking now that the word mostly means "upright, deserving,
stout, brave in battle", which doesn't seem so bad. The entry does
note that it was used ironically ("You are a nice fellow"), and so
maybe by the time of this use it had come down in the world.
*"chrHst�s", with E for eta.
Cece
> Basileús", King of the Jews, like the BI in INBI that Steve has
> mentioned elsethread.
>
> > "Christian," I was taught, was first heard in Antioch, to refer to
> > followers of the Anointed One. Sister Whichever noted that those
> > who used it may well have been poking fun, and a possible English
> > translation for those connotations could be "greaser."
>
> I think I recall that Robert Graves maintained that they called them
> "Chrestians" (or the equivalent), deriving it from "chrestos"* and
> meaning the followers of the Fool. I was a teenager when I (think I)
> read that, and didn't -- couldn't, really -- check up on the poet, but
> I find on looking now that the word mostly means "upright, deserving,
> stout, brave in battle", which doesn't seem so bad. The entry does
> note that it was used ironically ("You are a nice fellow"), and so
> maybe by the time of this use it had come down in the world.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe the line was just a connector. The B was indeed beta, for
basileus (or however the Greek is actually spelled, in whatever noun
form it needs to be) meaning king.
"Messiah" and "Christ" are both, I was taught, The Anointed One --
kings used to be anointed with oil to signify their consecration (the
English one still is -- at least as of 1953). (The OED says "Greek
Khristos ‘anointed one’, translating a Hebrew word meaning
‘Messiah’.")