King's English `should' in 2007?

Anton Shepelev

unread,

Jan 22, 2024, 9:59:16 AMJan 22

to

Hello, all.

A search in Google Books reveals what may prove a genuine
`should' from /King's English/ (in the last line):

"I am exploring every species of folly in the works of all
the prominent writers on manners of the last century. I
constantly come across these delights in my reading and have
spent some time on expanding and ordering my thoughts."

"How fascinating, Mr. Bennet," said the colonel. "I await
the appearance of your work with intereset."

"I should not hold my breath while I waited, sir," snorted
Mrs. Bennet.

-- from 's /Mr. Darcy Presents His Bride/ by Helen Halstead.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

HVS

unread,

Jan 22, 2024, 12:46:56 PMJan 22

to

On 22 Jan 2024, Anton Shepelev wrote

> Hello, all.
>
> A search in Google Books reveals what may prove a genuine
> `should' from /King's English/ (in the last line):
>
> "I am exploring every species of folly in the works of all
> the prominent writers on manners of the last century. I
> constantly come across these delights in my reading and have
> spent some time on expanding and ordering my thoughts."
>
> "How fascinating, Mr. Bennet," said the colonel. "I await
> the appearance of your work with intereset."
>
> "I should not hold my breath while I waited, sir," snorted
> Mrs. Bennet.
>
> -- from 's /Mr. Darcy Presents His Bride/ by Helen Halstead.
>

An interesting use of "should" was in the country-and-western song
"(Now and Then There's) A Fool Such as I" - written in 1952 by Bill
Trader, recorded the following year by Hank Snow, and later by Elvis
and a lot of others (including Bob Dylan in 1967, ssued on one of the
"Basement Tapes" albums).

-----------
Pardon me if I'm sentimental when we say goodbye;
Don't be angry with me should I cry.
When you're gone yet I'll dream a little dream as years go by,
Now and then there's a fool such as I.
-----------

It's always struck me as rather old-fashioned and formal; I think
the vernacular for most people these days would use "if" instead of
"should".

The use of "yet" in the third line also seems oddly non-vernacular
for a country-and-western lyric.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

Ross Clark

unread,

Jan 23, 2024, 3:17:03 AMJan 23

to

The "should" in this unusual position (before the subject) is actually
marking a conditional without the use of "if":
should I cry = if I should cry.
(I think adding the "should" makes the possibility a little more remote,
comparing "if I cry" with "if I should cry".)
The inverted-word-order conditionals feel to me like a more literary
variant of the straight-order ones with "if":
had I known = if I had known
...sometimes so literary as to be impossible in ordinary speech?
?could she see him = if she could see him
?were I you = if I were you

Peter Moylan

unread,

Jan 23, 2024, 8:11:42 AMJan 23

to

I agree, mostly. In my opinion, the use of an inversion to create a
conditional continues to be more common, these days, than the use of
"should" for simple futurity.

A complicating factor is that very few speakers of English can tell the
difference between a conditional and a subjunctive.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Anton Shepelev

unread,

Jan 23, 2024, 8:28:37 AMJan 23

to

Peter Moylan:

> I agree, mostly. In my opinion, the use of an inversion to
> create a conditional continues to be more common, these
> days, than the use of "should" for simple futurity.

The inverted use of `should' in English is exactly
equivalent to the inverted use of `буде' in old Russian, cf.
the decrees of Peter the Great. That latter word shares the
root is the word denoting future -- `будущее', making it an
analog of sh. and w.

> A complicating factor is that very few speakers of English
> can tell the difference between a conditional and a
> subjunctive.

Are they mutually exclusive? I think that all of
If you leave me,
If you should leave me, and
Should you leave me
are conditinals with the verb in the subjunctive, especially
if one keeps the bare form in the sigular, i.e.:
/If he leave me/,
of which there are many examples in Boogle Gooks.

Anton Shepelev

unread,

Jan 24, 2024, 3:37:03 AMJan 24

to

I wrote:

> I think that all of
> If you leave me,
> If you should leave me, and
> Should you leave me
> are conditinals with the verb in the subjunctive,

> especally if one keeps the bare form in the sigular, i.e.:

> /If he leave me/,
> of which there are many examples in Boogle Gooks.

By the law of synchronicity, howsoever you may interpret it,
I encoutered an instnace on a train to work this
morning -- smack-dab in the end of /Wuthering Heights/:

"And tell him, if hell take it, Ill come and teach him to
read it right," she said; "and, if he refuse it, I'll go
upstairs, and never tease him again."

This novel turned out an encyclopedia of toxic
relationships, which I did not look forward to at all...

Paul Carmichael

unread,

Jan 25, 2024, 9:46:06 AMJan 25

to

El Tue, 23 Jan 2024 21:16:53 +1300, Ross Clark escribió:

> The "should" in this unusual position (before the subject) is actually
> marking a conditional without the use of "if":
> should I cry = if I should cry.

Do you see it the same as the German "falls"?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

Peter Ross

unread,

Feb 6, 2024, 8:58:30 AMFeb 6

to

I wish I knew what subjunctive meant.

Anton Shepelev

unread,

Feb 6, 2024, 9:56:28 AMFeb 6

to

Peter Ross:

> I wish I knew what subjunctive meant.

How about treating it as the opposite of indicative, cf.
The Grammar of English Grammars:

The Subjunctive mood is that form of the verb, which rep-
resents the being, action, or passion, as conditional,
doubtful, and contingent: as, "If thou go, see that thou
offend not." -- "See thou do it not." -- Rev., xix, 10.

Bonichris Nice

unread,

Feb 9, 2024, 3:45:54 PMFeb 9

to