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A Chop for Dinner in England
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Pavel314
Dec 31, 2012, 7:25:52 AM12/31/12
to
In stories set in England, a character will sometimes have "a chop" for dinner. Here in the U.S. we generally qualify this as a pork chop or a lamb chop. What is a chop without an adjective? I have a feeling that it might refer to a mutton chop.
Jack Campin
Dec 31, 2012, 7:39:05 AM12/31/12
to
specialist butchers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Daniel James
Dec 31, 2012, 2:24:15 PM12/31/12
to
In article <58e801de-6f32-494d...@googlegroups.com>,
and tastes do change ...
> Here in the U.S. we generally qualify this as a pork chop
> or a lamb chop. What is a chop without an adjective?
It'll be from a pig or a sheep -- or just possibly a goat -- a cow or a
horse would be too big.
I'm inclined to say that "a chop" would be pork, because chops from lamb
or mutton are smaller and one might expect to eat two ... but that
depends a lot on historical context. If food -- and especially meat --
is scarce or expensive then a single lamb chop might be seen as a lavish
meal.
> I have a feeling that it might refer to a mutton chop.
Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
generally not considered fit for human consumption. Any mutton you do
find offered for sale will be from sheep farmed for meat that have been
held back from slaughter to allow the flavour of the meat to become
stronger. It's good meat, but tends to be expensive.
In the past, though, mutton from old sheep farmed for wool would have
been a cheap meat for poor people, and would certainly have been eaten.
So, it does depend very much on the setting.
--
Cheers,
Daniel.
Pavel314 wrote:
> In stories set in England, a character will sometimes have "a chop"
> for dinner.
It might help to know the period in which these stories are set. Times
> In stories set in England, a character will sometimes have "a chop"
> for dinner.
and tastes do change ...
> Here in the U.S. we generally qualify this as a pork chop
> or a lamb chop. What is a chop without an adjective?
horse would be too big.
I'm inclined to say that "a chop" would be pork, because chops from lamb
or mutton are smaller and one might expect to eat two ... but that
depends a lot on historical context. If food -- and especially meat --
is scarce or expensive then a single lamb chop might be seen as a lavish
meal.
> I have a feeling that it might refer to a mutton chop.
economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
generally not considered fit for human consumption. Any mutton you do
find offered for sale will be from sheep farmed for meat that have been
held back from slaughter to allow the flavour of the meat to become
stronger. It's good meat, but tends to be expensive.
In the past, though, mutton from old sheep farmed for wool would have
been a cheap meat for poor people, and would certainly have been eaten.
So, it does depend very much on the setting.
--
Cheers,
Daniel.
Don Phillipson
Dec 31, 2012, 3:36:22 PM12/31/12
to
> Pavel314 wrote:
>> In stories set in England, a character will sometimes have "a chop"
>> for dinner.
>
> It might help to know the period in which these stories are set. Times
> and tastes do change ...
>
>> Here in the U.S. we generally qualify this as a pork chop
>> or a lamb chop. What is a chop without an adjective?
"Daniel James" <dan...@me.invalid> wrote in message
>> In stories set in England, a character will sometimes have "a chop"
>> for dinner.
>
> It might help to know the period in which these stories are set. Times
> and tastes do change ...
>
>> Here in the U.S. we generally qualify this as a pork chop
>> or a lamb chop. What is a chop without an adjective?
news:VA.0000072...@me.invalid...
> In article <58e801de-6f32-494d...@googlegroups.com>,
> It'll be from a pig or a sheep -- or just possibly a goat -- a cow or a
> horse would be too big.
>
> I'm inclined to say that "a chop" would be pork, because chops from lamb
> or mutton are smaller and one might expect to eat two ... but that
> depends a lot on historical context. If food -- and especially meat --
> is scarce or expensive then a single lamb chop might be seen as a lavish
> meal.
>
>> I have a feeling that it might refer to a mutton chop.
chops were commonly eaten for breakfast or lunch (by people with
enough money to eat meat at breakfast), The first public restaurants
for food (as different from taverns for drink) were called chophouses
because mutton chops were the dish they served most abundantly:
"have a chop with me" was the young swell's invitation to lunch (possibly
breakfast, not dinner.) Practical causes were (1) the abundance
of mutton in a country where sheep were widely farmed (and perhaps
pork too) and (2) the convenience of rib meat for serving just one or
two people: the whole rib cage could be cooked and kept warm,
and one or a few chops sliced off fresh for each customer. This
was the fast food of its day (hence "chophouse" for a new type
of eating establishment.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Peter Young
Dec 31, 2012, 8:17:56 PM12/31/12
to
eponymous Warden Harding, in London, goes into a chop-house for lunch,
and has a "chop and a pint of Sherry". They don't make clergymen like
that any more.
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Pablo
Jan 1, 2013, 5:51:35 AM1/1/13
to
Daniel James wrote:
> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
> generally not considered fit for human consumption.
Except in curry houses. Lamb curry is a lie. It is always tough old mutton.
> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
> generally not considered fit for human consumption.
--
Pablo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
http://paulc.es/
Jack Campin
Jan 1, 2013, 11:53:53 AM1/1/13
to
Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> Daniel James wrote:
>> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>> generally not considered fit for human consumption.
> Except in curry houses. Lamb curry is a lie. It is always tough old mutton.
I think you're posting from Spain, where mutton may still be
> Daniel James wrote:
>> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>> generally not considered fit for human consumption.
> Except in curry houses. Lamb curry is a lie. It is always tough old mutton.
available. In the UK it isn't, unfortunately - it has more flavour
than lamb and would make much better curry, but the curry places
use New Zealand lamb like everybody else.
Robin Bignall
Jan 1, 2013, 12:18:20 PM1/1/13
to
On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 11:51:35 +0100, Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>Daniel James wrote:
>
>> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>> generally not considered fit for human consumption.
>
>Except in curry houses. Lamb curry is a lie. It is always tough old mutton.
Or goat.
>Daniel James wrote:
>
>> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>> generally not considered fit for human consumption.
>
>Except in curry houses. Lamb curry is a lie. It is always tough old mutton.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)
Jack Campin
Jan 1, 2013, 3:16:13 PM1/1/13
to
>>> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
>>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>>> generally not considered fit for human consumption.
>> Except in curry houses. Lamb curry is a lie. It is always tough old
>> mutton.
> Or goat.
Dream on. Goat is much more expensive than lamb. You are more
>>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>>> generally not considered fit for human consumption.
>> Except in curry houses. Lamb curry is a lie. It is always tough old
>> mutton.
> Or goat.
likely to be sold lamb when you order goat. If you've got goat
meat you will sell it as such because people like me will pay more
for its distinctive flavour.
THE COLONEL
Jan 1, 2013, 3:35:14 PM1/1/13
to
"Pavel314" <pin...@jhmi.edu> wrote in message
news:58e801de-6f32-494d...@googlegroups.com...
A chop is someone's signature, you damn fool.
--
I have killfiled the assworm. He is my prisoner.
news:58e801de-6f32-494d...@googlegroups.com...
--
I have killfiled the assworm. He is my prisoner.
graham
Jan 2, 2013, 6:57:09 PM1/2/13
to
"Daniel James" <dan...@me.invalid> wrote in message
news:VA.0000072...@me.invalid...
> In article <58e801de-6f32-494d...@googlegroups.com>,
> Pavel314 wrote:
>> In stories set in England, a character will sometimes have "a chop"
>> for dinner.
>
> It might help to know the period in which these stories are set. Times
> and tastes do change ...
>
>> Here in the U.S. we generally qualify this as a pork chop
>> or a lamb chop. What is a chop without an adjective?
>
> It'll be from a pig or a sheep -- or just possibly a goat -- a cow or a
> horse would be too big.
>
> I'm inclined to say that "a chop" would be pork, because chops from lamb
> or mutton are smaller and one might expect to eat two ... but that
> depends a lot on historical context. If food -- and especially meat --
> is scarce or expensive then a single lamb chop might be seen as a lavish
> meal.
>
>> I have a feeling that it might refer to a mutton chop.
>
> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
> generally not considered fit for human consumption. Any mutton you do
> find offered for sale will be from sheep farmed for meat that have been
> held back from slaughter to allow the flavour of the meat to become
> stronger. It's good meat, but tends to be expensive.
>
That might be a hogget, i.e., a yearling sheep. Not tough but a better
> Pavel314 wrote:
>> In stories set in England, a character will sometimes have "a chop"
>> for dinner.
>
> It might help to know the period in which these stories are set. Times
> and tastes do change ...
>
>> Here in the U.S. we generally qualify this as a pork chop
>> or a lamb chop. What is a chop without an adjective?
>
> It'll be from a pig or a sheep -- or just possibly a goat -- a cow or a
> horse would be too big.
>
> I'm inclined to say that "a chop" would be pork, because chops from lamb
> or mutton are smaller and one might expect to eat two ... but that
> depends a lot on historical context. If food -- and especially meat --
> is scarce or expensive then a single lamb chop might be seen as a lavish
> meal.
>
>> I have a feeling that it might refer to a mutton chop.
>
> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
> generally not considered fit for human consumption. Any mutton you do
> find offered for sale will be from sheep farmed for meat that have been
> held back from slaughter to allow the flavour of the meat to become
> stronger. It's good meat, but tends to be expensive.
>
flavour.
Graham
Jack Campin
Jan 2, 2013, 8:10:09 PM1/2/13
to
>> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>> generally not considered fit for human consumption. Any mutton you do
>> find offered for sale will be from sheep farmed for meat that have been
>> held back from slaughter to allow the flavour of the meat to become
>> stronger. It's good meat, but tends to be expensive.
> That might be a hogget, i.e., a yearling sheep. Not tough but a better
> flavour.
I used to see hogget offered for sale in New Zealand. I'm told it
>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>> generally not considered fit for human consumption. Any mutton you do
>> find offered for sale will be from sheep farmed for meat that have been
>> held back from slaughter to allow the flavour of the meat to become
>> stronger. It's good meat, but tends to be expensive.
> That might be a hogget, i.e., a yearling sheep. Not tough but a better
> flavour.
exists in the UK, but I've never seen it, and most British people
couldn't tell you what the word means.
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Jan 3, 2013, 6:00:54 AM1/3/13
to
On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 01:10:09 +0000, Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
>>> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
>>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>>> generally not considered fit for human consumption. Any mutton you do
>>> find offered for sale will be from sheep farmed for meat that have been
>>> held back from slaughter to allow the flavour of the meat to become
>>> stronger. It's good meat, but tends to be expensive.
>> That might be a hogget, i.e., a yearling sheep. Not tough but a better
>> flavour.
>
>I used to see hogget offered for sale in New Zealand. I'm told it
>exists in the UK, but I've never seen it, and most British people
>couldn't tell you what the word means.
>
The word "hogget" is certainly used in farming circles in the UK but, as
you say, most British people are unfamiliar with it. Hogget meat is
available from specialist outlets rather than supermarkets.
Because of the lack of familiarity with the word sellers of hogget and
the writers of recipes using hogget generally explain what it is.
Yew Tree Farm Heritage Meats
http://www.heritagemeats.co.uk/hogget
What is lamb, hogget and mutton?
Lamb is the meat from the ovine that is less than one year old....
Hogget is the meat from the ovine that is one to two years old....
Mutton is the meat from the ovine that is more than two years
old....
Bay Tree Rare Breed Meat and Livestock Sales
http://baytreerarebreeds.co.uk/8.html
'Hogget' refers to the meat taken from sheep matured into their
second year and is much sought after for it's exceptional flavour.
National Trust - recipes
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/get-involved/build-your-skills/how-to-guides/view-page/item641350/
Hogget meatballs and chestnut stew
Hogget is a forgotten delicacy - mature lamb between one and two
years old. It's also great in a stew with chestnuts.
etc.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
wrote:
>>> Nowadays, sheep are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach an
>>> economical size, so sheep meat will almost always be lamb rather than
>>> mutton. Old sheep that have been farmed primarily for their wool are
>>> generally not considered fit for human consumption. Any mutton you do
>>> find offered for sale will be from sheep farmed for meat that have been
>>> held back from slaughter to allow the flavour of the meat to become
>>> stronger. It's good meat, but tends to be expensive.
>> That might be a hogget, i.e., a yearling sheep. Not tough but a better
>> flavour.
>
>I used to see hogget offered for sale in New Zealand. I'm told it
>exists in the UK, but I've never seen it, and most British people
>couldn't tell you what the word means.
>
you say, most British people are unfamiliar with it. Hogget meat is
available from specialist outlets rather than supermarkets.
Because of the lack of familiarity with the word sellers of hogget and
the writers of recipes using hogget generally explain what it is.
Yew Tree Farm Heritage Meats
http://www.heritagemeats.co.uk/hogget
What is lamb, hogget and mutton?
Lamb is the meat from the ovine that is less than one year old....
Hogget is the meat from the ovine that is one to two years old....
Mutton is the meat from the ovine that is more than two years
old....
Bay Tree Rare Breed Meat and Livestock Sales
http://baytreerarebreeds.co.uk/8.html
'Hogget' refers to the meat taken from sheep matured into their
second year and is much sought after for it's exceptional flavour.
National Trust - recipes
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/get-involved/build-your-skills/how-to-guides/view-page/item641350/
Hogget meatballs and chestnut stew
Hogget is a forgotten delicacy - mature lamb between one and two
years old. It's also great in a stew with chestnuts.
etc.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Pavel314
Jan 3, 2013, 9:28:00 PM1/3/13
to Peter Duncanson
Paul
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