Pronouncing Foreign Words in English Broadcasts
John Coan
correct foreign pronunciations in English language newscasts. I heard a
reporter today on NPR from Israel, who pronounced a name with that
Hebrew guttural "ch" sound (that I never could make right). I wonder if
I like this or not. On the one hand, it *is* correct. However, it
always distracts me from the story -- I end up thinking about the
pronunciation. And of course, in some languages if they did this it
would be incomprehensible. For example, the Bantu language uses a lot
of clicks and pops that would make no sense at all to someone unfamiliar
with Bantu. What do you people think?
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
I think you're right, although this is always under discussion. Note
the change from 'Peking' to 'Beijing', for example, and our tendency
to say 'Paris' when the French say 'Paree'. But it would be ludicrous
for us in the west to try to emulate sounds in totally different
languages. I think they would believe we were mocking them.
However, if you're actually trying to speak the language to
communicate, you have to imitate and hear the proper sounds, as I
mentioned in a previous post tonight.
--
wrmst rgds
RB...(docr...@cwcom.net)
JPKIRCHNER
>correct foreign pronunciations in English language newscasts. I heard a
>reporter today on NPR from Israel, who pronounced a name with that
>Hebrew guttural "ch" sound (that I never could make right). I wonder if
>I like this or not. On the one hand, it *is* correct. However, it
>always distracts me from the story -- I end up thinking about the
>pronunciation. And of course, in some languages if they did this it
>would be incomprehensible. For example, the Bantu language uses a lot
>of clicks and pops that would make no sense at all to someone unfamiliar
>with Bantu. What do you people think?
I think it's good to use unmangled pronunciation to the degree that the
newscaster is capable of it. I really dislike it when they needlessly
Anglicize names, as became common with "McHale" Gorbachev. (Every time I hear
him called "McHale", I think of Ernest Borgnine.) At the beginning of the
Elian Gonzalez circus, it seemed that all newscasters were capable of calling
him [elian], but then many suddenly, and for no apparent reason, began calling
him [ilian].
I think the worst Anglicizations of various proper nouns are heard on the BBC,
where some announcers pronounce every letter of a foreign word as if they were
doing some kind of alphabet recitation. I have heard BBC announcers refer to
Nicaragua as "nih-kae-rae-yoo-ah", which is certainly ridiculous, and I doubt
that the average Brit on the street would engage in such daffy articulation.
I find over-Anglicization much more distracting than an occasional velar
fricative.
JK
Dr Zen
of foreign names' stakes. I'll never forget Don Howe's [1]
rendering of the Romanian star [2] 'Raducioiu' as 'Radda-chewy'.
Sheer genius! Or, now I think about it, the commentator (I
forget who) who, under the impression that all foreign names are
pronounced as if they were written in French, had Luis Enrique
[3] as 'Loo-ee An-reek' (the 'an' pronounced as in French).
[1] Don Howe is a coach and pundit in the world of football
(soccer, if you must). His main claim to fame is the number of
fans who despise him for the devastation he has wrought on their
teams.
[2] Florian Raducioiu, later to have an unsuccessful spell at
West Ham United.
[3] A Spaniard of great ability who was to have his nose broken
by an Italian thug in the very match in question, thus becoming
proof that not all the violence in football takes place in the
stands.
Dr Zen
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Dr Zen
<chri...@tiscalinet.it> wrote:
>Does anyone know when and where and why Beijing replaced Peking?
>I think it has something to do with political correctness which
appears to
>apply to certain ethnic groups and not to others.
I believe, although I am prepared to be corrected, that the
Chinese government asked for Peking to be known as Beijing. The
former is a rendering of the name of the city in the Wade-Giles
system, the latter in Pinyin. The Chinese government formally
adopted Pinyin as the preferred means of romanising Chinese
characters some years ago. A similar case can be seen in Cote
d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), where the government asked for its
nation to be known thus.
>Why then don't we say Roma, Napoli, Venezia, Muenchen, Koeln
and Moskva?
Or Italia, Deutschland, Rossiya?
>Btw has anyone noticed how British sports commentators, who
would never dare
>utter a racial stereotype when referring to a black player,
They often refer to African nations' 'naive defending', though.
>quite happily
>continue to do so towards Italians (who are apparently more
prone to
>cheating than pure Brits black or white) and Latins (excitable,
hot-tempered
>etc.)?
Good point. I think in sociey in general the concept that one
mustn't stereotype coloured peoples has gained more ground than
the idea that one shouldn't stereotype at all. Sports
commentators are, in this instance, merely reflecting what many
believe, that it is not offensive to refer to Latins as 'hot-
blooded' because this is not, in itself, a 'bad' characteristic.
Chris Pain
I think it has something to do with political correctness which appears to
apply to certain ethnic groups and not to others.
continue to do so towards Italians (who are apparently more prone to
cheating than pure Brits black or white) and Latins (excitable, hot-tempered
etc.)?
Chris
Chris Pain
Dr Zen <daveyrul...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
11b893b8...@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com...
> I think sports commentators take some beating in the 'mangling
> of foreign names' stakes. I'll never forget Don Howe's [1]
> rendering of the Romanian star [2] 'Raducioiu' as 'Radda-chewy'.
> Sheer genius! Or, now I think about it, the commentator (I
> forget who) who, under the impression that all foreign names are
> pronounced as if they were written in French, had Luis Enrique
> [3] as 'Loo-ee An-reek' (the 'an' pronounced as in French).
Actually most commentators appear to have been going to French school.
Gianfranco Zola and Gianluca Vialli have to hear their first names
pronounced with a French 'j' or 'g' as in 'Jules' or 'genre' where a
perfectly English 'j' as in 'Janet' or 'Gerry' would produce a perfectly
Italian-sounding version (Janfranco, Janluca).
Chris
D.A.K.
>
> In article <8gf3ne$u8t$1...@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>, "Chris Pain"
> <chri...@tiscalinet.it> wrote:
> >I think it has something to do with political correctness which
> >appears to apply to certain ethnic groups and not to others.
I don't know when that happened, but I don't think that's a matter of
"political correctness" in the sense the term is popularly understood. I
think there is a general trend towards writing geographical names in
their native languages, except for very well-known ones, which may
retain their traditional spellings. The advantages are quite obvious.
For example, the same place will be known by the same name in different
languages (most of the time). There will be less confusion and errors in
translation, and fewer communication problems with non-native speakers
of English. Also, the vast majority of geographical names have no
well-known Anglicized spelling, so we might as well use the native
spelling.
In the case of Beijing, mainland China has adopted an official
romanization scheme (Pinyin, or Hanyu Pinyin), which accurately encodes
the pronounciation of Chinese characters when used with accent marks.
The traditional "Peking", in comparison, is *grossly* inaccurate.
> I believe, although I am prepared to be corrected, that the
> Chinese government asked for Peking to be known as Beijing. The
> former is a rendering of the name of the city in the Wade-Giles
> system, the latter in Pinyin. The Chinese government formally
> adopted Pinyin as the preferred means of romanising Chinese
> characters some years ago. A similar case can be seen in Cote
> d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), where the government asked for its
> nation to be known thus.
>
> >Why then don't we say Roma, Napoli, Venezia, Muenchen, Koeln
> and Moskva?
>
> Or Italia, Deutschland, Rossiya?
Maybe because the Anglicized versions of these names are so well-known
that it would cause less confusion to retain their traditional
spellings???
D.A.K.
Roger Standing
"Chris Pain" <chri...@tiscalinet.it> wrote in message
news:8gf3ne$u8t$1...@lacerta.tiscalinet.it...
> Does anyone know when and where and why Beijing replaced Peking?
> I think it has something to do with political correctness which appears to
> apply to certain ethnic groups and not to others.
or 'West am' as the locals do?
Dr Zen
<use...@host.domain> wrote:
>> >Why then don't we say Roma, Napoli, Venezia, Muenchen, Koeln
>> and Moskva?
>>
>> Or Italia, Deutschland, Rossiya?
>
>Maybe because the Anglicized versions of these names are so
well-known
>that it would cause less confusion to retain their traditional
>spellings???
Ahem. Perhaps the point was made a *little* too subtly for some,
but it was my point!
M.J.Powell
>Does anyone know when and where and why Beijing replaced Peking?
>I think it has something to do with political correctness which appears to
>apply to certain ethnic groups and not to others.
>utter a racial stereotype when referring to a black player,
You heard of the boxing commentator years ago, who said 'The coloured
boxer is wearing the white shorts'? And this was in the days of B&W TV!
Mike
JPKIRCHNER
It changed to Beijing because that is the way it is really pronounced in
Chinese.
>I think it has something to do with political correctness which appears
>to
>apply to certain ethnic groups and not to others.
No, it has to do with the Chinese preferring the name of their capital to be
pronounced accurately.
>Why then don't we say Roma, Napoli, Venezia, Muenchen, Koeln and Moskva?
Because those countries do not have ministries of culture that publicly
requested that anglophone media change to a more authentic pronunciation. In
the case of München and Köln, it wouldn't work anyway, because most English
speakers can't pronounce high front rounded vowels. They can pronounce
Beijing, however.
JK
JPKIRCHNER
In the mid-1990s, CNN had a Briton reporting from the Middle East, and he used
to refer to the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas as "the ham-ass militia". I
always imagined a parade of guerillas with huge derrieres.
JK
Opinicus
news:20000525001831...@ng-fv1.aol.com...
> to refer to the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas as "the
ham-ass militia". I
> always imagined a parade of guerillas with huge derrieres.
porcine derrieres...
--
Bob
Foça, Turkey
---
Kanyak's Doghouse <http://www.geocities.com/kanyak.geo>
Stan Busby
NORFOLK
You have one, and there is an early one in
Virginia, and another in Nebraska. I would
assume that it settles down to "North Fork".
The matter is here the broadcaster's
pronunciation thereof.
A few broadcasters in the US of A will dare to
say "Norfuck", the way it is said in Virginia.
Some read "Nor-folk", and some say "Nor-folk".
The local broadcasters in Norfolk, VA have no
problem with this. It is only the auslanders
that are tiptoeing around the "F" word sound.
Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 May 2000 21:28:50 GMT, John Coan <jc...@alumni.duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >Some newscasters who speak foreign languages well tend to use the
> >correct foreign pronunciations in English language newscasts. I heard a
> >reporter today on NPR from Israel, who pronounced a name with that
> >Hebrew guttural "ch" sound (that I never could make right). I wonder if
> >I like this or not. On the one hand, it *is* correct. However, it
> >always distracts me from the story -- I end up thinking about the
> >pronunciation. And of course, in some languages if they did this it
> >would be incomprehensible. For example, the Bantu language uses a lot
> >of clicks and pops that would make no sense at all to someone unfamiliar
> >with Bantu. What do you people think?
John Coan
definitely pronounced like the F word, and broadcasters that dance around it
simply sound stupid.
Another place name of interesting pronunciation: Beaufort. There is a
Beaufort in North Carolina, and a Beaufort in South Carolina. They are
pronounced differently. The South Carolina town is pronounced like the "beau"
in "beauty"; the North Carolina town is pronounced like the "beau" in "beau".
Each pronunciation is correct for its respective place.
One more in the news this week. The North Carolina town Concord is not
pronounced like the Massachusetts town Concord, or the type of grape. In North
Carolina, we say Kon' Kord', with both syllables stressed, the first slightly
more so. In Massachusetts, the first syllable is heavily stressed and the
second is pronounced /kerd/. The national TV news readers got it wrong day
after day. I suppose no one bothered to correct them.
Daniel James
> In Massachusetts, the first syllable is heavily stressed and the
> second is pronounced /kerd/.
So it sounds like "conquered"?
If so, how ironic. Birthplace of the revolution and all that.
Cheers,
Daniel.
John Coan
Polar
wrote:
>
[...]
>Another place name of interesting pronunciation: Beaufort. There is a
>Beaufort in North Carolina, and a Beaufort in South Carolina. They are
>pronounced differently. The South Carolina town is pronounced like the "beau"
>in "beauty"; the North Carolina town is pronounced like the "beau" in "beau".
>Each pronunciation is correct for its respective place.
There is a dental franchise here in the L.A. area bearing the name
"Dr. Beauchamp". Innocently, I pronounced it *a la francaise*, but
was corrected. Apparently it's "Dr. Beecham". Go figure!
[...]
--
Polar
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
'Beauchamp', pronounced 'Beecham' is yet another of those English
sirnames which is pronounced differently from how it is spelled.
Another is 'Cholmondelay', pronounced 'Chumley'. There are many
others.
--
wrmst rgds
RB...(docr...@cwcom.net)
Dr Zen
The best has got to be Featherstonehaugh, which can be
rendered 'Fanshaw'!
Zen
vellov
Polar wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 26 May 2000 00:38:54 GMT, John Coan <jc...@alumni.duke.edu>
>wrote:
>
>>
>[...]
>
>>Another place name of interesting pronunciation: Beaufort. There is a
>>Beaufort in North Carolina, and a Beaufort in South Carolina. They are
>>pronounced differently. The South Carolina town is pronounced like the
"beau"
>>in "beauty"; the North Carolina town is pronounced like the "beau" in
"beau".
>>Each pronunciation is correct for its respective place.
>
>There is a dental franchise here in the L.A. area bearing the name
>"Dr. Beauchamp". Innocently, I pronounced it *a la francaise*, but
>was corrected. Apparently it's "Dr. Beecham". Go figure!
In London there is a street called Beauchamp Place, also pronounced
"Beecham". The street next to it is Beaufort Gardens, and I would
automatically pronounce this to rhyme with "slow fort". Just a few yards
along from Harrods, if anyone's interested.
With respect,
vellov
Polar
<daveyrul...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>In article <4r48js030mnb31moq...@4ax.com>, Dr
>Robin Bignall <docr...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 26 May 2000 14:53:50 -0700, Polar
><sme...@mindspring.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 26 May 2000 00:38:54 GMT, John Coan
><jc...@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>>Another place name of interesting pronunciation: Beaufort.
>There is a
>>>>Beaufort in North Carolina, and a Beaufort in South
>Carolina. They are
>>>>pronounced differently. The South Carolina town is
>pronounced like the "beau"
>>>>in "beauty"; the North Carolina town is pronounced like
>the "beau" in "beau".
>>>>Each pronunciation is correct for its respective place.
>>>
>>>There is a dental franchise here in the L.A. area bearing the
>name
>>>"Dr. Beauchamp". Innocently, I pronounced it *a la
>francaise*, but
>>>was corrected. Apparently it's "Dr. Beecham". Go figure!
>>>
>>>[...]
>>'Beauchamp', pronounced 'Beecham' is yet another of those
>English
>>sirnames which is pronounced differently from how it is spelled.
>>Another is 'Cholmondelay', pronounced 'Chumley'. There are many
>>others.
>>
>>--
>>
>>wrmst rgds
>>RB...(docr...@cwcom.net)
>>
>>
>
>The best has got to be Featherstonehaugh, which can be
>rendered 'Fanshaw'!
How about Worcestershire, pron. Wooster,
--
Polar
Dr Zen
Even weirder than that, I've heard some people pronounce it
as 'whirr-sester-shy-uh'. Can you believe that?
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> The best has got to be Featherstonehaugh, which can be
> rendered 'Fanshaw'!
I posted something similar a while back. However, we were informed (Stephen
Toogood?) that there was at least one person with this surname who
pronounced it in full.
A couple of weeks ago an aunt of mine, who also knows something of the
Fetherstonhaugh [sic] family in Cumbria told me that they pronounce it
"Fetherstonhoff".
But Cholmondeley is definitely "Chumley".
Matti
Matti Lamprhey
>
> How about Worcestershire, pron. Wooster,
It's "Worcester" that's pronounced "Wooster" (with a short "oo" sound").
But Leicester is egregiouser.
Matti
Rudolf Schwarzkopf-Zskai
Polar said:
: How about Worcestershire, pron. Wooster
Only in the sauce.
Rudolf
Nottingham UK
rud...@dollynet.freeserve.co.uk
www.dollynet.freeserve.co.uk
Polar
OK, so I meant "Woostersher", so sue me! <g>
--
Polar
Polar
<daveyrul...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>The best has got to be Featherstonehaugh, which can be
>>>rendered 'Fanshaw'!
>>
>>How about Worcestershire, pron. Wooster,
>>
>>
>>--
>>Polar
>>
>
>Even weirder than that, I've heard some people pronounce it
>as 'whirr-sester-shy-uh'. Can you believe that?
Poor, limited souls. Thinking inside the box.
--
Polar
Polar
wrote:
[...beijing...]
>Maybe because the Anglicized versions of these names are so well-known
>that it would cause less confusion to retain their traditional
>spellings???
In a similar vein, I said "Paris" rather than "Paree" [1] for "n"
years before I learned French. So now, though it hurts to pronounce
other French cities a l'anglaise, I still have no trouble saying
"Paris" (out of context, bien su^r!)
[1] Sorry, am phonetically-challenged.
--
Polar
Avi Jacobson
sme...@mindspring.com wrote:
[Bufort, Beecham, Chumley, Fenshaw, snipped.]
> How about Worcestershire, pron. Wooster,
Welcome back, Polar.
The Beaufort in southern Lebanon, recently recaptured by the Hizbollah,
is pronounced "the bow-FOUR" in English, and [al-bufu:r] in Arabic.
And let's not forget Six Mile Bottom in England, pronounced ['sI mI lI
bu:m].
--
Avi Jacobson, Manager of Language Localization, Gallery Systems
A...@GallerySystems.com - (510) 652 8950, ext. 246
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John Davies
<daveyrul...@hotmail.com.invalid> writes
>In article <4r48js030mnb31moq...@4ax.com>, Dr
>Robin Bignall <docr...@cwcom.net> wrote:
[...]
>>'Beauchamp', pronounced 'Beecham' is yet another of those
>English
>>sirnames which is pronounced differently from how it is spelled.
>>Another is 'Cholmondelay', pronounced 'Chumley'. There are many
>>others.
>rendered 'Fanshaw'!
That's an oft-told tale , but it's a pure fiction. Featherstonehaugh is
generally pronounced as spelt, with the last syllable sounding somewhere
between "huh" and "haw". I'm willing to bet 50 pounds that no-one can
produce any branch of the family using the "Fanshaw" pronunciation of
the name. God knows how the story originated: probably as a joke.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Dr Zen
Guinness Book of Records, actually. Apologies for mindlessly
repeating that work.
Stan Busby
English, they are English words pronounced
by Englishmen.
I will give as an american example, the
pronunciation of "Norfolk", as in Norfolk
VA. The networks dance around it and sometimes
say "Nor-folk", and some times Nor-fork, but
never Nor-fuck, the way it is pronounced
locally. Granby High School Cheer team had
a cheer: We don't chew, we don't smoke,
Nor-fuck, Nor-fuck. Suffolk, VA, about 30 miles
away, has similiar problems.
Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
> On Fri, 26 May 2000 14:53:50 -0700, Polar <sme...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 26 May 2000 00:38:54 GMT, John Coan <jc...@alumni.duke.edu>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>
> >[...]
> >
> >>Another place name of interesting pronunciation: Beaufort. There is a
> >>Beaufort in North Carolina, and a Beaufort in South Carolina. They are
> >>pronounced differently. The South Carolina town is pronounced like the "beau"
> >>in "beauty"; the North Carolina town is pronounced like the "beau" in "beau".
> >>Each pronunciation is correct for its respective place.
> >
> >There is a dental franchise here in the L.A. area bearing the name
> >"Dr. Beauchamp". Innocently, I pronounced it *a la francaise*, but
> >was corrected. Apparently it's "Dr. Beecham". Go figure!
> >
> >[...]
> 'Beauchamp', pronounced 'Beecham' is yet another of those English
> sirnames which is pronounced differently from how it is spelled.
> Another is 'Cholmondelay', pronounced 'Chumley'. There are many
> others.
>
> --
>
> wrmst rgds
> RB...(docr...@cwcom.net)
Robert Lieblich
>
> These are not FOREIGN words pronounced in
> English, they are English words pronounced
> by Englishmen.
> I will give as an american example, the
> pronunciation of "Norfolk", as in Norfolk
> VA. The networks dance around it and sometimes
> say "Nor-folk", and some times Nor-fork, but
> never Nor-fuck, the way it is pronounced
> locally. Granby High School Cheer team had
> a cheer: We don't chew, we don't smoke,
> Nor-fuck, Nor-fuck. Suffolk, VA, about 30 miles
> away, has similiar problems.
Johnny Carson is from Norfolk, Nebraska. He pronounced it "nor-fock,"
with no pronounced emphasis [pun] on either syllable and a very clear
vowel in the second. Compare Newark {"new-ark"), Delaware.
William
news:1ucjiso99k27qq13e...@4ax.com...
> I think you're right, although this is always under discussion. Note
> the change from 'Peking' to 'Beijing', for example, and our tendency
> to say 'Paris' when the French say 'Paree'.
Try saying "Paree" in Paris, Texas, and see how far you get...
('course, this is the state that pronounces "Manchaca" "Man-Shack.")
-Wm
Wes Groleau
I agree it is distracting to go overboard in pronouncing
one name or word "correctly" as a speaker of that language
would pronounce it. However, since I speak Spanish, I find
it just as distracting to hear something pronounced (or see
it written) as if the speaker (writer) had no clue at all.
For example, it is not necessary to use a guttural R in
"bourgeoisie" and "pied-poudre" but PLEASE don't say
"Burr-goy-zee" and "P eye d Powder" (Yes, I've heard both)
(Sorry, I couldn't come up with a good Spanish example
on the spot.)
Considering my previous post, am I not practicing what I preach?
--
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau
Wes Groleau
> The best has got to be Featherstonehaugh, which can be
> rendered 'Fanshaw'!
".... Knotticentingham Towers, pronounced Nah-sham Taws, ..."
(from the first page of a satirical short story, title I've forgotten)
Dr Robin Bignall
<ma...@polka.bikini> wrote:
>"Dr Zen" <daveyrul...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote...
>> [...]
>> The best has got to be Featherstonehaugh, which can be
>> rendered 'Fanshaw'!
>
>I posted something similar a while back. However, we were informed (Stephen
>Toogood?) that there was at least one person with this surname who
>pronounced it in full.
>
>A couple of weeks ago an aunt of mine, who also knows something of the
>Fetherstonhaugh [sic] family in Cumbria told me that they pronounce it
>"Fetherstonhoff".
>
>But Cholmondeley is definitely "Chumley".
>
>Matti
>
The 'haugh' reminds me of my mother's older sister, who married a guy
called 'Hough', which he pronounced as Hoff. My cousins used to keep
us laughing when we were little by telling us what they were called at
school. How, Huff, Hug, Huge, Hoe, Hofe, Hoge, Hog, Hew, Haw, Hawg --
in fact, every possible pronunciation of the 'ough' sound in English!
They had to learn to answer to all of them, because teachers had the
same problem!
--
wrmst rgds
RB...(docr...@cwcom.net)