"sherbert"
Heron Stone
.i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
that's what i said for 30-something years
until someone pointed out my error
.i was shocked
.i had to look it up in a dictionary before i
would believe it
.well, i am still working on reprogramming my
language machine and have pretty much
succeeded now... it took a few years
.of course i'm tuned in to the sound of this
word now and i can say quite confidently
that i have NEVER heard anyone pronounce
it correctly... "sherbet"
?where did that second "R" come from
.i look forward to your thoughts
heron
Martin Ambuhl
>
> ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
It is not true that "everyone in america[sic]" says "sherbeRt".
Since you premise is grossly in error, it is pointless to answer
any question based on it. As a ciliac kid, I heard this word a lot in
Florida, Tennesse, and Texas, and it had no second 'r'. Nowadays,
the word seems to be the prententious "Sorbet" "Sherbet" is preferrable
on etymological grounds.
Heron Stone
.your right
.i apologize
.i should have specified... southern california
.i've never heard the word said outside of
southern california
thanks
heron
Fabian
"Heron Stone" <her...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:herons-C7E942....@lsnewsr3-27.we.mediaone.net...
> ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
>
> .i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
> that's what i said for 30-something years
> until someone pointed out my error
> .i was shocked
> .i had to look it up in a dictionary before i
> would believe it
...
Why do you put your full stops (aka periods) at the beginning of your
sentences?
And why don't you capitalise the last letter?
--
--
Fabian
Love is when a girl puts on perfume and a boy puts on cologne and they
go out and smell each other.
Don Phillipson
news:herons-C7E942....@lsnewsr3-27.we.mediaone.net...
> ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
> .i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
> that's what i said for 30-something years
> until someone pointed out my error
Pronunciation is not a matter of Right/Wrong
but Preference.
Language scientists call the phenomenon the
Intrusive R. It is very common in American
speech, i.e. most Americans sound (sometimes
sound loud and long) the R in sherbert, western,
cart, and similar words which the British say
while partly or wholly suppressing the R sound.
American English has in recent years also
generated an Intrusive L, i.e. many Americans
now sound ( sometimes loud and long) the L
in almond, palm, etc. British pronunciation
of these words has no L sound at all.
Thus British "calm" and "cart" sound similar
except for the vowel sound at the end.
Americans differentiate the two strongly:
the Intrusive R makes the A vowel in cart
sound differently from the A vowel in calm
(at least for most American speakers.)
[This item is the first feature of American
English I noticed more than 40 years ago, on
arrival at an institution that identified itself in
the football fight song as WESTERRRRRN U.]
Donald Phillipson
dphil...@trytel.com
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
613 822 0734
Franke
Fabian wrote:
> "Heron Stone" <her...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:herons-C7E942....@lsnewsr3-27.we.mediaone.net...
> > ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
> >
> > .i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
> > that's what i said for 30-something years
> > until someone pointed out my error
> > .i was shocked
> > .i had to look it up in a dictionary before i
> > would believe it
>
> ...
>
> Why do you put your full stops (aka periods) at the beginning of your
> sentences?
All sentence-final punctuation is is first in his post.
> And why don't you capitalise the last letter?
He has invented a new system of communicating. At least his
system is consistent, unlike the sloppy garbage we get from
so many lazy keyboarders. I say Mr Stone is to be
congratulated.
Richard Fontana
> "Heron Stone" <her...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:herons-C7E942....@lsnewsr3-27.we.mediaone.net...
>
> > ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
> > .i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
> > that's what i said for 30-something years
> > until someone pointed out my error
>
> Pronunciation is not a matter of Right/Wrong
> but Preference.
>
> Language scientists call the phenomenon the
> Intrusive R. It is very common in American
> speech, i.e. most Americans sound (sometimes
> sound loud and long) the R in sherbert, western,
> cart, and similar words which the British say
> while partly or wholly suppressing the R sound.
Whoa! That's Valentine-drop-dead wrong!
It's not *intrusive* r in general (I'll concede that "sherbert" may be a
special case) because it's the British who lost the 'r', and the Americans
kept on pronouncing it.
To the extent that "sherbert" emerges from non-rhotic-influenced US
accents (East Coast ones), then you might be right about that
pronunciation and spelling being an example of intrusive r.
> American English has in recent years also
> generated an Intrusive L, i.e. many Americans
> now sound ( sometimes loud and long) the L
> in almond, palm, etc. British pronunciation
> of these words has no L sound at all.
That may be correct: that is, it may be that the /l/ was lost in all
significant accents at one time and was re-inserted in some Am. accents
later on. More research is necessary.
> Thus British "calm" and "cart" sound similar
> except for the vowel sound at the end.
> Americans differentiate the two strongly:
> the Intrusive R makes the A vowel in cart
> sound differently from the A vowel in calm
> (at least for most American speakers.)
It's not intrusive r! Intrusive 'r' is like the UK's Jack Straw's
pronunciation of "law enforcement" as "law renforcement".
Bill McCray
wrote:
"Sherbert" is what I heard growing up in central Kentucky in the
1940s, although we often just called it "ice". I loved "orange ice".
Bill McCray
Lexington, KY
I AM
Bill McCray <BillM...@MindSpring.com> wrote in message
news:3bac9bfe...@news.mindspring.com...
up in
the Upper West Side of Manhattan in the 1940s and 1950s.
Richard Fontana
> "Sherbert" was the only pronunciation I was familiar with growing
> up in
> the Upper West Side of Manhattan in the 1940s and 1950s.
Whoa! What do you mean by this? Then, perhaps even more than now, the
Upper West Side contained both rhotic and non-rhotic speakers. For a
non-rhotic speaker "sherbert" and "sherbet" might well suggest the same
pronunciation.
Leesa
I also grew up among those who pronounce it sherbert, not in
southern California, but in the Midwest. Did your people come from the
Midwest before they moved to California?
Funny, all these years I've been pronouncing it wrong and I have
never been told it was wrong. Kinda embarrassing.
Leesa
I AM
Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.010922...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu...
I'm certainly rhotic...now. Even if I had been non-rhotic (or
borderline) at the time,
I would definitely have spelled the word as sherbert. I believe
there is a difference
in the length (and quality?) of the final vowel in any case.
felix
But what *is* sherbet? Sherbet and sorbet may have been the same thing
in 12th century Persia, but to me now they're two totally different
things. Is it perchance a pondian thing?
felix
Jerry Friedman
>
> > "Heron Stone" <her...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> > news:herons-C7E942....@lsnewsr3-27.we.mediaone.net...
> >
> > > ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
> > > .i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
> > > that's what i said for 30-something years
> > > until someone pointed out my error
I heard "sherbert" a lot when I was a kid in the Cleveland area, and I
think that's how I pronounced it.
> > Pronunciation is not a matter of Right/Wrong
> > but Preference.
> >
> > Language scientists call the phenomenon the
> > Intrusive R. It is very common in American
> > speech, i.e. most Americans sound (sometimes
> > sound loud and long) the R in sherbert, western,
> > cart, and similar words which the British say
> > while partly or wholly suppressing the R sound.
>
> Whoa! That's Valentine-drop-dead wrong!
> It's not *intrusive* r in general (I'll concede that "sherbert" may be a
> special case) because it's the British who lost the 'r', and the Americans
> kept on pronouncing it.
And by the way, I believe that by no means all the British suppress
those R sounds either wholly or partly. Not even all the English.
> To the extent that "sherbert" emerges from non-rhotic-influenced US
> accents (East Coast ones), then you might be right about that
> pronunciation and spelling being an example of intrusive r.
>
> > American English has in recent years also
> > generated an Intrusive L, i.e. many Americans
> > now sound ( sometimes loud and long) the L
> > in almond, palm, etc. British pronunciation
> > of these words has no L sound at all.
The two cases of "almond" and "palm" are different in some American
speech. I was brought up to pronounce the "l" in "almond" but not the
ones in "palm", "calm", "talk", etc. "Almond" with a silent "l" still
sounds strange (or foreign) to me. I'm not sure I've ever heard
"palm" with the "l" pronounced. However, I do know people who say the
"l" in "salmon".
I was amazed just now to discover that MWCD10 on line prefers the "l"
in "almond" to be silent.
> That may be correct: that is, it may be that the /l/ was lost in all
> significant accents at one time and was re-inserted in some Am. accents
> later on. More research is necessary.
>
> > Thus British "calm" and "cart" sound similar
> > except for the vowel sound at the end.
> > Americans differentiate the two strongly:
> > the Intrusive R makes the A vowel in cart
> > sound differently from the A vowel in calm
> > (at least for most American speakers.)
>
> It's not intrusive r! Intrusive 'r' is like the UK's Jack Straw's
> pronunciation of "law enforcement" as "law renforcement".
Richard, I hereby award you the Rey Aman Medal for Restraint When Your
Favorite Topic Comes Up.
--
Jerry Friedman
Skitt
"Fabian" <mu...@chung.ii> wrote in message
news:1B%q7.22385$uM2.2...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
>
> "Heron Stone" <her...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:herons-C7E942....@lsnewsr3-27.we.mediaone.net...
> > ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
> >
> > .i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
> > that's what i said for 30-something years
> > until someone pointed out my error
> > .i was shocked
> > .i had to look it up in a dictionary before i
> > would believe it
>
> ...
>
> Why do you put your full stops (aka periods) at the beginning of your
> sentences?
>
> And why don't you capitalise the last letter?
Don't you remember Heron and the Quirks?
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
Michael J Hardy
> ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
I am one American who was brought up saying "sherbet", with
no intrusive "r". It was the only pronunciation I knew for years
before I heard someone saying it with an intrusive "r". I've wondered
why they do that, too.
Mike Hardy
Michael J Hardy
> "Heron Stone" <her...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:herons-C7E942....@lsnewsr3-27.we.mediaone.net...
>
> > ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
> > .i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
> > that's what i said for 30-something years
> > until someone pointed out my error
>
> Pronunciation is not a matter of Right/Wrong
> but Preference.
>
> Language scientists call the phenomenon the
> Intrusive R. It is very common in American
> speech, i.e. most Americans sound (sometimes
> sound loud and long) the R in sherbert, western,
> cart, and similar words which the British say
> while partly or wholly suppressing the R sound.
This is nonsense: The "r" in "sherbeRt" is indeed
intrusive, but there's nothing intrusive about the "r" in
"western" or "cart". Those are cases of an "r" being pronounced
where an "r" is actually written, so it's not intrusive at all.
It is the British, not us, who frequently use intrusive "r's".
They say "The ideaRis", and things like that. (Bostonians do
that too. But most Americans don't.)
Mike Hardy
Daniel James
> Nowadays, the word seems to be the prententious "Sorbet"
> "Sherbet" is preferrable on etymological grounds.
"Sherbet" is apparently from Arabic via Turkish, and originally meant
a cooling drink of sweetened and diluted fruit juice - similar to what
the French call a "Pressé".
"Sorbet" is from French, via Italian "sorbetto". In French it means a
water-ice, but in Italian it can mean either a water-based 'gelato' or
a drink. The Italian verb "sorbire" (to sip or drink) probably (my
dictionary is mute on the point) comes fromthe same Arabic root as
"sherbet".
In England "sherbet" usually means "sherbet powder" - a sweet
effervescing lemony powder that can be eaten dry (dipping in a finger
or a piece of liquorice) or mixed with water to make a sparkling
drink. It seems that the powder was first sold as a dehydrated form of
sherbet in the original sense of a drink, and that young customers
found a better way to use it! (cf. "lemonade powder", which I remember
from my youth.) The SOED notes that the word can also mean any
sparking drink, and especially that it is used to mean beer in
colloquial Australian.
"Sorbet", on the other hand, is well-established here to mean a
water-ice. I have only rarely encountered the use of "sherbet" to mean
a water-ice. The SOED says that it's North American usage, which would
explain it.
I take it that the sense in which you understand "sherbet" is as
water-ice. I can understand that if "shebet" has long been the common
term for a water-ice in the US the term "sorbet" might seem
pretentious, but I'm not sure that you should react against it on
etymological grounds.
Given a choice, I'll take "sorbet" from French and "sherbet" from
Australian - but etymology has little to do with that!
Cheers,
Daniel.
Truly Donovan
<her...@mediaone.net> wrote:
While I've heard it said in the US, it has been quite a long
time since. I think it was the common usage in my childhood
in the Midwest. I was startled to come across it in "The
Prisoner of Azbakan" less than 24 hours ago. This was an
American edition, and it is known that changes have been
made to acculturate the books, so I don't know whether it is
"sherbert" in the original or not.
--
Truly Donovan
http://www.trulydonovan.com
Heron Stone
> sentences?
>
> And why don't you capitalise the last letter?
.check out the url below for an explanation
http://home.earthlink.net/~herons/gendo/rthling.html
heron
Truly Donovan
No, the spelling was different, too.
Jacqui
>
> >> > ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
(snip)
> While I've heard it said in the US, it has been quite a long
> time since. I think it was the common usage in my childhood
> in the Midwest. I was startled to come across it in "The
> Prisoner of Azbakan" less than 24 hours ago. This was an
> American edition, and it is known that changes have been
> made to acculturate the books, so I don't know whether it is
> "sherbert" in the original or not.
It is. (And it's Azkaban, or is it Azbakan in the US? <g>)
Jac, who wants a Sherbe(r)t Fountain now.
Heron Stone
> southern California, but in the Midwest. Did your people come from the
> Midwest before they moved to California?
.my father's grandparents came to california from
cincinnati, ohio
.i don't know about my mother's side
heron
Mary MacT
>> >> > ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
s/does everyone/do some people
I hear "sherbert" sometimes, but "sherbet" at least as often. It comes
out sorta "sherbit" the way I say it.
`
Mary MacTavish
http://www.prado.com/~iris
"I like you guys who want smaller government - you
know, just small enough to fit in our bedrooms."
Josh to Congressman Skinner, The West Wing
Tony Cooper
I'm not taking this as a standard, acceptable form of
punctuation until (a) N. Mitchum says "not in my world",
and, (b) until Joey DE gives us a ruling.
meirm...@erols.com
<her...@mediaone.net> posted:
>?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
>
>.i was raised by people who said "sherbeRt" and
> that's what i said for 30-something years
> until someone pointed out my error
>.i was shocked
>.i had to look it up in a dictionary before i
> would believe it
>
I only I heard it with a second r in the first 2 or three stages of my
history at the bottom. So with the other answers it seems pretty
widespread.
Eventually, probably in stage 4, I noticed a few people pronounced it
differently and that there was no second r, so I removed it too.
I don't recall that I ever saw it spelled with two r's, but I don't
recall seeing it written very often either.
>.well, i am still working on reprogramming my
> language machine and have pretty much
> succeeded now... it took a few years
This word didn't give me so much trouble, but other words have.
>.of course i'm tuned in to the sound of this
> word now and i can say quite confidently
> that i have NEVER heard anyone pronounce
> it correctly... "sherbet"
>
>?where did that second "R" come from
When the L's invaded EMistan, many R's were displaced. As usual, some
came to the US. Many took up residence in sherbet.
>
>.i look forward to your thoughts
>
>heron
Unerelated:
On the news yesterday, they were talking about mideastern looking
minority group members who might have had trouble in the US lately.
They said there were 21 million Sikhs world-wide, and just as I
anticipated they said that many came to the US seeking (prosperity or
freedom or something).
Maybe they meant Sikhing?
Anyhow, there are 500,000 Sikhs in the US.
When it is time for one to get married, if there is no Sikh boy or
girl here, they go back to India, etc? to get one.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
John Varela
wrote:
> many Americans
> now sound ( sometimes loud and long) the L
> in almond, palm, etc.
I've always sounded the Ls in palm and calm, but never the one in almond.
It's common among the natives to pronounce Washington with an r:
Warshington.
--
John Varela
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when
they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal
P&D Schultz
In mid-century Detroit, everyone said "sherbert" except a few
hoity-toity people on TV, and Mrs. Carlson who lived next door. The
conclusion my 7-year-old brain came to was that the people on TV were
putting on airs, and Mrs. Carlson was just dumb.
By the way, the AHD3 says "also 'sherbert'". So it's now an alternative
form whose legitimacy is beyond all question. If you don't like it, you
are apparently a fogey. Or maybe British. Or both.
\\P. Schultz
Alan Jones
"P&D Schultz" <schult...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3BAD6820...@erols.com...
.....
>
> By the way, the AHD3 says "also 'sherbert'". So it's now an
alternative
> form whose legitimacy is beyond all question. If you don't like it,
you
> are apparently a fogey. Or maybe British. Or both.
NSOED doesn't show "sherbert" even as an alternative spelling: edited by
British fogeys, of course. In RP the two spellings would sound
identical, or very nearly so: I can't remember hearing the word spoken
by a rhotic speaker of BrE. To me, "sherbet", however spelt, is not a
drink but a slightly crystalline lemony powder to be licked from the
palm of a hand, or sucked up from a paper bag with a thin liquorice tube
as a "sherbet fountain", and this sense is given in NSOED. But that was
all of sixty years ago; I don't know whether such "confections" (NSOED's
word) are still sold.
Alan Jones
Richard Fontana
I'm nearly dead certain I grew up thinking of it as /SRb@t/. But I grew
up around both rhotic and non-rhotic speakers, and it's possible that I
interpreted some "sherberts" as "sherbets". It's easy for me to see how
the intrusive r version coul have arisen.
Ben Zimmer
I'm not buying this "intrusive r" business. Wouldn't we also expect it
to crop up in similar environments, say, "circuit" or "hermit" or
"surfeit" or "turbot"? I don't think it has anything to do with
rhoticity-- more likely contamination from "Herbert".
(OED has citations of "sherbert" from 1675, by the way.)
--Ben
Mike Oliver
> I've always sounded the Ls in palm and calm, but never the one in almond.
How do you pronounce it then? /'& m@nd/, like the growers in
California's Central Valley? I don't think I've ever heard that
pronunciation used naturally by an urbanite, at least not under 60
years old.
Raymond S. Wise
I have read this entire thread, and so far, no one has cited a
dictionary.
Both Merriam-Webster and the AHD4 give both "sherbet" and "sherbert,"
with the appropriate pronounciations for each.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Raymond S. Wise
> Heron Stone wrote:
> >
>
> It is not true that "everyone in america[sic]" says "sherbeRt".
> Since you premise is grossly in error, it is pointless to answer
> any question based on it. As a ciliac kid, I heard this word a lot in
> Florida, Tennesse, and Texas, and it had no second 'r'. Nowadays,
> the word seems to be the prententious "Sorbet" "Sherbet" is preferrable
> on etymological grounds.
How do you justify that last statement? It's true that the word
"sherbert" is descended from a word which did not have a second r, but
so what? On "etymological grounds" you could make all sorts of
nonsensical pronouncements which ignored the reality of actual usage
(and, in fact, pedants have been doing so since the 18th century).
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
I remember those in the 1950s but I can't say I've seen them since.
Do you recall that in those days there would be 'seasons' for such
things? The sherbet season would arrive and everybody would have black
lips from the liquorice. Then the whips and tops would come out for a
while. Then the yo-yo. Then it would be liquorice sticks and kids
would all be chewing on pieces of twig. Then would come transfers
stuck on the body, then cat's cradle, followed by paper folding
(complex flying objects), making 'butter' by putting full-cream milk
into a little bottle and going around shaking it, etc. etc. Later,
hoola hoops, too.
--
wrmst rgrds
RB...(docr...@ntlworld.com)
John Dean
Dr Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:99frqtkd3u0hu3r90...@4ax.com...
That's my childhood in one neat para. Add 'intercoms' made with a piece of
string stretched tight between two tin cans (memo to self - remember to wash
the cans first). Hopscotch, Bonfire Night ....... don't get me started.
--
John Dean -- Oxford
I am anti-spammed -- defrag me to reply
Martin Ambuhl
> I have read this entire thread,
Apparently not.
> and so far, no one has cited a
> dictionary.
Yes, I did.
Martin Ambuhl
The last statement refers to the one before it. It has nothing to do
with pronunciation. There is no "nonsensical pronouncement." Check a
dictionary.
Linz
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2001 06:44:52 GMT, "Alan Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >NSOED doesn't show "sherbert" even as an alternative spelling: edited by
> >British fogeys, of course. In RP the two spellings would sound
> >identical, or very nearly so: I can't remember hearing the word spoken
> >by a rhotic speaker of BrE. To me, "sherbet", however spelt, is not a
> >drink but a slightly crystalline lemony powder to be licked from the
> >palm of a hand, or sucked up from a paper bag with a thin liquorice tube
> >as a "sherbet fountain", and this sense is given in NSOED. But that was
> >all of sixty years ago; I don't know whether such "confections" (NSOED's
> >word) are still sold.
> >
> I remember those in the 1950s but I can't say I've seen them since.
I can buy sherbet fountains in my local newsagent (in rural Wet
Yorks), in Woolworths in Halifax (urban Wet Yorks), Woolworths in
Watford (urban Herts) and the newsagents in the university shopping
precinct in Manchester (urban, um, Manchester). Complete with
liquorice 'straw'. Also packets of the lemony powder with a strawberry
lollipop.
--
Last year's troubles are so old-fashioned
Richard Fontana
I don't pronounce the <l> other than by accident or contamination. I say
/'A m@nd/ (cot/father vowel). That of course is very similar to /Al m@nd/
and I probably wouldn't notice these as distinct pronunciations
ordinarily. /& m@nd/ seems less common to me, but I think my grandfather
(who wasn't a native speaker of English) pronounced it that way, and also
I knew a guy from Maine who used that pronunciation.
Leesa
> > I also grew up among those who pronounce it sherbert, not in
> > southern California, but in the Midwest. Did your people come from the
> > Midwest before they moved to California?
> > Funny, all these years I've been pronouncing it wrong and I have
> > never been told it was wrong. Kinda embarrassing.
> >
>
>
> I have read this entire thread, and so far, no one has cited a
> dictionary.
>
> Both Merriam-Webster and the AHD4 give both "sherbet" and "sherbert,"
> with the appropriate pronounciations for each.
Interesting. My copy of the American Heritage Dictionary only shows
one pronunciation, shur-bit. My copy dates from the 1970s though. I am
relieved that sherbert is acceptable to AHD. It was going to be really
hard to stop saying sherbert!
Leesa
John Varela
wrote:
> I say
> /'A m@nd/ (cot/father vowel).
I grew up saying /'a m@nd/. (If I got the IPA right.) Like the a in West
Indies "man".
> /& m@nd/ seems less common to me, but I think my grandfather
> (who wasn't a native speaker of English) pronounced it that way, and also
> I knew a guy from Maine who used that pronunciation.
I think today I tend more toward the more nasal /'& m@nd/.
John Dean
Linz <sp...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uulrqts26377o0d96...@4ax.com...
a Black Cab. As in ''E's on the Sherbet' - 'He is a licensed Hackney
Carriage Operative'
Raymond S. Wise
Hmm. It appears we may be having a misunderstanding of some sort, but
I am not sure on whose part.
"The last statement refers to the one before it." Do you mean by this
that "sherbet" is to preferred to "sorbet" on etymological grounds? I
don't see how this improves the quality of the argument: usage
arguments based upon the etymology of a word's meaning are just as
useless as usage arguments based upon the spelling or pronunciation of
a word.
My comment on "nonsensical pronouncements" was simply an elaboration
of the idea that one should not turn to etymology to solve disputed
usage questions (with the sole exception of when all groups to a
dispute decide to do so--this is a political solution, not a scholarly
one). Pedants did indeed make many nonsensical pronouncements based
upon etymology, this did indeed begin around the 18th century, and
such practices are no more justifiable today than they were then (even
with our vastly improved our knowledge of etymology). As I have
pointed out elsewhere, if we cared how the French used the word
"fleur-de-lis," we would be pronouncing the s in the last syllable.
(And if we cared how they currently use the word, we would spell it
"fleur-de-lys," since that is the current spelling preferred by the
French.)
Raymond S. Wise
[snip]
>
> "The last statement refers to the one before it." Do you mean by this
> that "sherbet" is to preferred to "sorbet" on etymological grounds? I
> don't see how this improves the quality of the argument: usage
> arguments based upon the etymology of a word's meaning are just as
> useless as usage arguments based upon the spelling or pronunciation of
> a word.
>
I intended to write "just as useless as usage arguments based upon the
etymology of the spelling or pronunciation of a word." It is true,
however, that some disputes about pronunciation based simply upon
spelling are nonsense: If a large number of educated speakers say
/'fEbju,Eri/, there is is no more reason to argue that the first r of
the word should be pronounced than there is to say that the k in
"knight" should be pronounced.
Iskandar Baharuddin
> ?why does everyone in america say "sherbeRt"
>
> until someone pointed out my error
> ..i had to look it up in a dictionary before i
> would believe it
>
> ..well, i am still working on reprogramming my
> language machine and have pretty much
> succeeded now... it took a few years
>
> word now and i can say quite confidently
> that i have NEVER heard anyone pronounce
> it correctly... "sherbet"
>
> ?where did that second "R" come from
>
>
> heron
What I remember is:
"Shoot the sherbert to me, Herbert!"
Salaam & Shalom
Izzy
"So I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse..."
from "My Struggle", by Alfred E Neuman
Mike Oliver
> What I remember is:
>
> "Shoot the sherbert to me, Herbert!"
Is that from the song "Everybody Eats When They (sic) Come to My House"?
Richard Fontana
> Interesting. My copy of the American Heritage Dictionary only shows
> one pronunciation, shur-bit. My copy dates from the 1970s though. I am
> relieved that sherbert is acceptable to AHD. It was going to be really
> hard to stop saying sherbert!
That 1970s copy is no doubt the trusty version of AHD, so I'd hold off on
saying sherbert for the time being.
Richard Fontana
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:01:09, Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > I say
> > /'A m@nd/ (cot/father vowel).
>
> I grew up saying /'a m@nd/. (If I got the IPA right.) Like the a in West
> Indies "man".
Probably very similar to mine. I'd identify the West Indies "mon" vowel
with my cot/father vowel.
Dr Robin Bignall
.... and conkers. All that steeping in vinegar and persuading mum to
harden them up in a carefully-controlled oven to try to get the magic
'hundreder'. And notes in secret codes; and there was definitely a
season for roller-skates -- they weren't an all-year-round thing. (Oh
the unfulfilled lo