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in case he hadn't already heard them all
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arthurvv vart
Dec 22, 2023, 11:14:35 PM12/22/23
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1. What secrets of mine did you tell Tim, in case he hadn't already heard
everything from someone else before?
2. What secrets of mine did you tell Tim, assuming he hadn't already heard
everything from someone else before?
The speaker assumes that Tim might have heard all his secrets from someone
else before, and he is asking his interlocutor which of his secrets his
interlocutor divulged to Tim.
I suspect Tim has already heard everything from someone else, but anyway,
what secrets of mine did you tell him?
Are '1' and '2' grammatical and meaningful?
Gratefully,
Navi
Interested in strange structures
Lost in the twilight zone of the English language
Obsessed with ambiguity
everything from someone else before?
2. What secrets of mine did you tell Tim, assuming he hadn't already heard
everything from someone else before?
The speaker assumes that Tim might have heard all his secrets from someone
else before, and he is asking his interlocutor which of his secrets his
interlocutor divulged to Tim.
I suspect Tim has already heard everything from someone else, but anyway,
what secrets of mine did you tell him?
Are '1' and '2' grammatical and meaningful?
Gratefully,
Navi
Interested in strange structures
Lost in the twilight zone of the English language
Obsessed with ambiguity
Anton Shepelev
Dec 23, 2023, 3:18:29 PM12/23/23
to
Navi, I have rewritten your alternative to emphasize the
part that's different:
> What secrets of mine did you tell Tim,
> 1. in case
> 2. assuming
> and he is asking his interlocutor which of his secrets his
> interlocutor divulged to Tim.
>
> I suspect Tim has already heard everything from someone
> else, but anyway, what secrets of mine did you tell him?
No, that's a wrong interpretation, or a badly worded one.
It sounds absurd.
> Are '1' and '2' grammatical and meaningful?
I think both are grammatical, but only #2 is meaningful.
`in case' cannot be used to intoduce this sort of a
precondition for a question, cf.:
And what shall we do in case it rains
which is meaningful.
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part that's different:
> What secrets of mine did you tell Tim,
> 2. assuming
> he hadn't already heard everything from someone else before?
>
> The speaker assumes that Tim might have heard all his
> secrets from someone else before,
Yet he (the speaker) explicitly makes an opposite assumtion!
>
> The speaker assumes that Tim might have heard all his
> secrets from someone else before,
> and he is asking his interlocutor which of his secrets his
> interlocutor divulged to Tim.
>
> I suspect Tim has already heard everything from someone
> else, but anyway, what secrets of mine did you tell him?
It sounds absurd.
> Are '1' and '2' grammatical and meaningful?
`in case' cannot be used to intoduce this sort of a
precondition for a question, cf.:
And what shall we do in case it rains
which is meaningful.
P.S.: Beware the Google Groups will drop Usenet support on
February, 15. If you want to continue to participate
in Usenet, consider registering with a real Usenet
server and installing a real Usenet client (aka
newsreader). I can help you with this process.
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Gleb Hlebov
Dec 28, 2023, 12:19:59 AM12/28/23
to
Hi Anton,
24.12.2023 1:18:26, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> > I suspect Tim has already heard everything from someone
> > else, but anyway, what secrets of mine did you tell him?
>
> No, that's a wrong interpretation, or a badly worded one.
> It sounds absurd.
How is it wrong though? I believe it says the same thing just in a
slightly less formal way.
--
"Those who hate and fight must stop themselves; otherwise it is
not stopped."
-- Spock, Day of the Dove
24.12.2023 1:18:26, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> > I suspect Tim has already heard everything from someone
> > else, but anyway, what secrets of mine did you tell him?
>
> No, that's a wrong interpretation, or a badly worded one.
> It sounds absurd.
slightly less formal way.
--
"Those who hate and fight must stop themselves; otherwise it is
not stopped."
-- Spock, Day of the Dove
Anton Shepelev
Dec 29, 2023, 7:25:31 AM12/29/23
to
Gleb Hlebov to Anton Shepelev:
> > Navi:
the secret from somebody else, yet asks of his interlocutor
what part of the secret he told Tim. The original is not so
bad, because the stated suspicion is the opposite -- that
Tim did /not/ hear it from somebody else, in which case the
question is only natural.
> > Navi:
> >
> > > I suspect Tim has already heard everything from
> > > someone else, but anyway, what secrets of mine did you
> > > tell him?
> >
> > No, that's a wrong interpretation, or a badly worded
> > one. It sounds absurd.
>
> How is it wrong though? I believe it says the same thing
> just in a slightly less formal way.
This a contradiction. The speaker suspects that Tim heard
> > > I suspect Tim has already heard everything from
> > > someone else, but anyway, what secrets of mine did you
> > > tell him?
> >
> > No, that's a wrong interpretation, or a badly worded
> > one. It sounds absurd.
>
> How is it wrong though? I believe it says the same thing
> just in a slightly less formal way.
the secret from somebody else, yet asks of his interlocutor
what part of the secret he told Tim. The original is not so
bad, because the stated suspicion is the opposite -- that
Tim did /not/ hear it from somebody else, in which case the
question is only natural.
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Gleb Hlebov
Jan 10, 2024, 4:54:03 AMJan 10
to
Hi Anton Shepelev,
29.12.2023 17:25:27, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> > > > I suspect Tim has already heard everything from
> > > > someone else, but anyway, what secrets of mine did you
> > > > tell him?
> > >
> > > No, that's a wrong interpretation, or a badly worded
> > > one. It sounds absurd.
> >
> > How is it wrong though? I believe it says the same thing
> > just in a slightly less formal way.
>
> This a contradiction. The speaker suspects that Tim heard
> the secret from somebody else, yet asks of his interlocutor
> what part of the secret he told Tim.
Well... It still seems logically consistent to me. I don't know how you
got the idea that something's "wrong" with it. The usage is just fine
like this and everyone's supposed to see the point.
Let's meditate:
"I guess he already knows everything...
as of now...
but... if anything...
what have you told him?"
Isn't it ok as well?
--
"The early worm deserves the bird."
29.12.2023 17:25:27, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> > > > I suspect Tim has already heard everything from
> > > > someone else, but anyway, what secrets of mine did you
> > > > tell him?
> > >
> > > No, that's a wrong interpretation, or a badly worded
> > > one. It sounds absurd.
> >
> > How is it wrong though? I believe it says the same thing
> > just in a slightly less formal way.
>
> This a contradiction. The speaker suspects that Tim heard
> the secret from somebody else, yet asks of his interlocutor
> what part of the secret he told Tim.
got the idea that something's "wrong" with it. The usage is just fine
like this and everyone's supposed to see the point.
Let's meditate:
"I guess he already knows everything...
as of now...
but... if anything...
what have you told him?"
Isn't it ok as well?
--
"The early worm deserves the bird."
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