Sitting or Setting?
tiglath
"The house sets on a hill" versus "The house sits on a hill."
I see that in the Misused and Easily Confused Words section of the New
York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage has an entry for
'set, sit.' It
reads:
'Set' is a transitive verb (the subject acts upon the object -- "I set
my watch on the table") except when the sun "sets." 'Sit' is
intransitive, except when one "sits" a horse.
This seems to say it is not correct to use intransitive "set" in the
sense of "to put in a specified position; place." Hence, "The house
sets on a hill" is not correct., but Webster's Third New International
Dictionary, Unabridged, has for "set," "The house set on the
hilltop."
The American Heritage Talking Dictionary does not give such use of
"set" as an intransitive verb:
To disappear below the horizon: The sun set at seven that evening. 2.
To diminish or decline; wane. 3. To sit on eggs. Used of fowl. 4. To
become fixed; harden. See Synonyms at coagulate. To become permanent.
Used of dye. 5. To become whole; knit. Used of a broken bone. 6.
Botany. To mature or develop, as after pollination. 7. Non-Standard.
To sit: "If Emmett drives, I could set up front" (Bobbie Ann Mason).
8. To position oneself preparatory to an action, such as running a
race.
Further, I hear from a source that:
Animates: people, dogs, birds, cats "sit."
Inanimates: houses, plates, books, glasses "set."
Is there a last word on set/sit?
Thanks
Wes Groleau
> my watch on the table") except when the sun "sets." 'Sit' is
> intransitive, except when one "sits" a horse.
The exceptions can be considered shortenings of "non-exceptions" :
The sun sets on the horizon, and you are forcing the horse to "sit"
> ....but Webster's Third New International
> Dictionary, Unabridged, has for "set," "The house set on the
> hilltop."
>
> 7. Non-Standard.
> To sit: "If Emmett drives, I could set up front" (Bobbie Ann Mason).
Like they said, non-standard. The prior definitions are exceptions for
just those limited circumstances. If you want to be prescriptive, the
primary meaning of "set" is "to place [something] upon [something]" and
the primary meaning of "sit" is to place yourself on or to "be upon"
If you want to be descriptive, then "set" and "sit" overlap 50%.
If you want to be either, "sit" is to "set" as "lie" is to "lay."
> Further, I hear from a source that:
>
> Animates: people, dogs, birds, cats "sit."
>
> Inanimates: houses, plates, books, glasses "set."
Bull.
> Is there a last word on set/sit?
Not until English achieves the status of Latin.
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
Earl of Westmoreland: "Oh that we now had here But one ten thousand of
those men in England That do no work today!"
King: "What's he that wishes so? My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair
cousin. If we are marked to die, we are enow To do our country loss;
and if to live, The fewer men, the greater share of honor. God's will!
I pray thee wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold, Nor care I who doth feed upon my
cost; It earns me not if men my garments wear; Such outward things dwell
not in my desires. But if it be a sin to covet honor, I am the most
offending soul alive.
No, faith my coz, wish not a man from England. God's peace! I would
not lose so great an honor. As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more! Rather proclaim it,
Westmoreland, through my host, That he which hath no stomach to this
fight, Let him depart; his passport shall be made, And crowns for convoy
put into his purse; We would not die in that man's company That fears
his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the Feast of Crispian: He that outlives this day, and
comes safe home, Will stand a tiptoe when this day is named, And rouse
him at the name of Crispian. He that shall see this day, and live old
age, Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbors And say 'Tomorrow is
Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars, And say, 'These wounds
I had on Crispin's day.' Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But
he'll remember, with advantages, What feats he did that day. Then shall
our names, Familiar in his mouth as household words --- Harry the King,
Bedford and Exeter, Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester --- Be
in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red. This story shall the good man
teach his son; and Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by, From this day to
the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remembered. ---
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he today that sheds his
blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile, This day shall
gentle his condition. And gentlemen in England, now a-bed, Shall think
themselves accursed they were not here; And hold their manhoods cheap
whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."
William Shakespeare [1564-1616] Henry V, Act IV, Scene 3, Lines 16-67.
Mike Holland <ne...@golden.wattle.id.au> wrote in message
news:3806A9FB...@golden.wattle.id.au...
|
| Do USAnians still use 'set' in this sense of putting an
| object in position? (like German setzen)
| In Aus and UK (IIRC) its a mostly archaic germanic word.
|
| We use 'put' or 'place' rather than 'set'.
| Of course, there are dozens of other uses of 'set'.
|
|
| --
| Mike Holland <mi...@golden.wattle.id.au> Perth, Australia.
| --==--
| The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Richard Fontana
>
>"The house sets on a hill" versus "The house sits on a hill."
>
>I see that in the Misused and Easily Confused Words section of the New
>York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage has an entry for
>'set, sit.' It
>reads:
>
>my watch on the table") except when the sun "sets." 'Sit' is
>intransitive, except when one "sits" a horse.
>
>sense of "to put in a specified position; place." Hence, "The house
>Dictionary, Unabridged, has for "set," "The house set on the
>hilltop."
Might this be an example of an archaic, nonstandard or dialectal usage?
What definition is Webster's trying to illustrate?
>The American Heritage Talking Dictionary does not give such use of
>"set" as an intransitive verb:
>
>To disappear below the horizon: The sun set at seven that evening. 2.
>To diminish or decline; wane. 3. To sit on eggs. Used of fowl. 4. To
>become fixed; harden. See Synonyms at coagulate. To become permanent.
>Used of dye. 5. To become whole; knit. Used of a broken bone. 6.
>Botany. To mature or develop, as after pollination. 7. Non-Standard.
>To sit: "If Emmett drives, I could set up front" (Bobbie Ann Mason).
>8. To position oneself preparatory to an action, such as running a
>race.
>
>Further, I hear from a source that:
>
>Animates: people, dogs, birds, cats "sit."
>
> Inanimates: houses, plates, books, glasses "set."
>
>Is there a last word on set/sit?
Who or what's your source? That may describe the usage in one or
more English dialects, but it is not standard English to say that a
house, plate, book, or glass "sets".
Richard
Mike Holland
tiglath
Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> wrote in message
> >Further, I hear from a source that:
> >
> >Animates: people, dogs, birds, cats "sit."
> >
> > Inanimates: houses, plates, books, glasses "set."
> >
> >Is there a last word on set/sit?
>
> Who or what's your source? That may describe the usage in one or
> more English dialects, but it is not standard English to say that a
> house, plate, book, or glass "sets".
>
> Richard
Thank you for your reply.
A friend of mine makes the distinction between animates and inanimates in
standard English, although I must say I have never heard "set" used as in
"the bottle was setting on the table." But I can't let this be the measure
of things since English is not my first language and perhaps this is yet
again one more aspect of the language new to me.
Donna Richoux
> A friend of mine makes the distinction between animates and inanimates in
> standard English, although I must say I have never heard "set" used as in
> "the bottle was setting on the table." But I can't let this be the measure
> of things since English is not my first language and perhaps this is yet
> again one more aspect of the language new to me.
This precise subject was brought up two weeks ago under this heading:
Re: U.S. local usage?
From: Olwyn Mawr <ol...@trochos.freeserve.co.uk>
There were many answers then, and it would be far kinder of you to
consult Dejanews instead of asking us to go round it again.
However, I could not help noticing that the regulars at
alt.folklore.urban were recently expressing relief that someone named
"tiglath" was no longer posting there. I hope this is just an
unfortunate coincidence in nicknames and you are not the troublemaker
that that "tiglath" appeared to be.
Cautiously --- Donna Richoux
wat...@centuryinter.net
hens. Said the the farmer, "I don't care if the hens are sitting or
setting....I want to know if they're laying or lying.'
Skitt
"tiglath" <tig...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> "The house sets on a hill" versus "The house sits on a hill."
>
> I see that in the Misused and Easily Confused Words section of the New
> York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage has an entry for
> 'set, sit.' It
> reads:
>
> 'Set' is a transitive verb (the subject acts upon the object -- "I set
> my watch on the table") except when the sun "sets." 'Sit' is
> intransitive, except when one "sits" a horse.
>
> This seems to say it is not correct to use intransitive "set" in the
> sense of "to put in a specified position; place." Hence, "The house
> sets on a hill" is not correct., but Webster's Third New International
> Dictionary, Unabridged, has for "set," "The house set on the
> hilltop."
You are not paying attention, or is this a troll?
The W3NID example is for the adjective, not verb.
--
Skitt http://i.am/skitt/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tiglath
Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1dzps03.14e47ddb0b39mN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> tiglath <tig...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > A friend of mine makes the distinction between animates and
inanimates in
> > standard English, although I must say I have never heard "set"
used as in
> > "the bottle was setting on the table." But I can't let this be
the measure
> > of things since English is not my first language and perhaps this
is yet
> > again one more aspect of the language new to me.
>
> This precise subject was brought up two weeks ago under this
heading:
>
> Re: U.S. local usage?
> From: Olwyn Mawr <ol...@trochos.freeserve.co.uk>
Thank you for the pointer.
>
> There were many answers then, and it would be far kinder of you to
> consult Dejanews instead of asking us to go round it again.
I'll be glad to do that instead now that I know.
>
> However, I could not help noticing that the regulars at
> alt.folklore.urban were recently expressing relief that someone
named
> "tiglath" was no longer posting there. I hope this is just an
> unfortunate coincidence in nicknames and you are not the
troublemaker
> that that "tiglath" appeared to be.
>
> Cautiously --- Donna Richoux
It is the same Tiglath indeed, and I am rather proud of having made
the trouble you speak of in that dump of raw sewage. You see, one
can be different things at different times and for different people.
A saint for some, a jerk for others. Depends on what people bring out
of one. The knock on the door reveals the character of the visitor.
Those who are polite get the outstretched hand. Those who greet with
a kick in the groin get the hollowpoints. Your friends may or many
not include those who insulted me in email, for inadvertently
crossposting to that a.f.u. while responding to another post in
another newsgroup. It pleases me to hear, anyhow, they still remember
me, for this was my purpose when I visited them as an avenging angel.
Lee Daniel Crocker
that doesn't contain the prescription that "sit" is intransitive
and "set" is transitive. The setting sun and people who sit
horses are indeed common exceptions that just have to be learned,
as are exceptions based on unrelated meanings of the words:
gelatin and glue "set" (harden) intransitively, for example, and
one sets a table even though one is in fact setting other things
on the table to do so.
One can also transitively sit a person by causing them to sit, as
when you sit your son down for a long talk, but a paramedic would
set an unconscious patient on a bed.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
D. Spencer Hines
Four intriguing examples:
"A house set on a hilltop."
"A sky set with stars."
"Eyes set deep in his head."
[Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language,
Unabridged, p. 2077]
"A lid set with inlaid strips of teak and rosewood."
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates
and chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while
every able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground.
[Psalm CXV, Verse I]
Lee Daniel Crocker <leeNO...@piclab.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0a0133f8...@usw-ex0101-001.remarq.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Thank you kindly for the spelling correction.
"1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild" it is.
Now, would these cultured and educated Brits --- we need some Scots and
Irish in the mix too, not just English and Welsh --- no, I'm not
discriminating in any way --- ever say:
"The Douglas house sets atop the second hill on the far side of the
burn?"
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
K. Edgcombe <ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:7udcen$nu6$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
| In article <7udbqg$eea$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
| D. Spencer Hines <N...@ToSpam.edu> wrote:
| >
| >Could we hear from some other Brits on this, please? One voice does
not
| >a choir make --- no matter how sweetly it may sing.
| >
| >How would a cultured and educated Brit express her or himself? ---
| >
| >"The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild is setting on
the
| >rosewood buffet in the parlour.
| >
| >Or:
| >
| > "The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild is sitting on
the
| >rosewood buffet in the parlour."
|
| I know a few cultured and educated Brits, and they would all say
"sitting",
| were it not that they are decent truth-telling folk who have little
truck with
| rosewood buffets or, alas, with 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild.
|
| Indeed, many of the c. and e. Brits to whom I refer would, and do,
make up a
| choir, which sang very sweetly this very evening - without, however,
| contributing anything to the matter under discussion.
|
| Katy
Kim Burton
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes:
>Now, would these cultured and educated Brits --- we need some Scots and
>Irish in the mix too, not just English and Welsh --- no, I'm not
>discriminating in any way --- ever say:
>
>"The Douglas house sets atop the second hill on the far side of the
>burn?"
Well, I (Cornish by heritage and upbringing, just to confuse matters, but
believing myself to speak and write standard UK English and educated if not
cultured) would say "is on the top of" or "is atop the", or "is situated on the
top of", or "sits upon" or even "sits atop" but would be unlikely to use
"atop" in normal speech or writing. Though as you see I can manage it if
necessary. Others may well have different usages, but "sets atop" seems to have
a distinctly N American flavour to it.
Kim
De gustibus non disputandum.
D. Spencer Hines
Hmmmmm, so many words and so little time.
"Too many notes, Herr Mozart."
What, pray tell, are we to make of:
"The great gray-green, greasy Limpopo River, all set about with
fever-trees." [Kipling]
and:
'Tis the set of sails and not the gales
Which tells us the way to go." [Ella Wheeler Wilcox]
and:
"When she saw her drunken husband hanging from the lamppost in front of
their home, it set her teeth on edge. She shushed the children and
reached for her rolling pin." [D. Spencer Hines]
Hmmmm, are her teeth now "sitting" on edge in England, Wales --- and
Cornwall? Are they "sitting" on edge in Scotland and Ireland, as well?
How about in Canada?
Well, when she gets hold of that drunken husband by the ear and softens
him up a bit with the rolling pin, he will find himself "sat on the
bench," no doubt.
"Wouldn't It Be Loverly."
Nyal Z. Williams
D. Spencer Hines wrote in message
<7udlue$ahl$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
whack.
>Hmmmm, are her teeth now "sitting" on edge in England, Wales --- and
>Cornwall? Are they "sitting" on edge in Scotland and Ireland, as well?
>How about in Canada?
Nonsense! When teeth are set on edge they are not resting on some sort of
underpinning. Neither are glue, concrete, nor jello .
D. Spencer Hines
question mark in English.
Why do we say, "Her teeth were set on edge?"
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
Nyal Z. Williams <nyalwi...@netdirect.net> wrote in message
news:CXuO3.132$EI2.2...@news.netdirect.net...
D. Spencer Hines
No, you misunderstand.
I'm probing the meaning and logic of the idiom.
What happens after someone's "teeth are set on edge?"
Why weren't the teeth "set on edge" before?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> wrote in message
news:slrn80l4s...@localhost.localdomain...
| D. Spencer Hines provides, in relevant part:
| >"When she saw her drunken husband hanging from the lamppost in front
of
| >their home, it set her teeth on edge. She shushed the children and
| >reached for her rolling pin." [D. Spencer Hines]
| >
| >Hmmmm, are her teeth now "sitting" on edge in England, Wales --- and
| >Cornwall? Are they "sitting" on edge in Scotland and Ireland, as
well?
| >How about in Canada?
|
| How about in the United States? In standard American English, her
teeth
| are not "setting on edge", or "sitting on edge" for that matter, even
| though something set her teeth on edge.
|
| Richard
rkram...@my-deja.com
> Vide infra.
> Participles derived from <set> and <sit>, as well as gerunds and
> gerundives, are certainly on limits in this discussion.
> We are Lumpers, not Splitters --- Hedgehogs not Foxes --- at least in
> this stage of the discussion. To exclude at this stage is lunacy. We
> need to construct a big tent and a large net. Only a rabid squirrel
> would try to insist on a small nest, under these conditions.
> Further, the issue is certainly not <"Setting or Sitting?">, so I have
> changed the subject line back to what it should be --- and as I had
it.
This guy operates by the principle "A moving target is harder to
hit." A routine check of the archives shows he claims that "the book
is setting on the table" is the way to say "the book is sitting on the
table."
He has been told here repeatedly that setting used to mean sitting is
archaic and non-standard. Now he is beating about bush telling us what
the issue is not, but he won't tell us what the issue is. A blurred
focus always helps when trying to paper over errors.
His diversions may lead a few up the garden path, but the attentive
reader will see that he has clearly been found wrong in the matter
of "the book is setting on the table," and now he is on the look-out
for greener pastures.
I would recommend a better attitude towards errors. Admit them with
grace and move on. Not doing so fools no one but yourself, and frankly
it looks pathetic.
Ray Kramer
--
"I promise to make Miss America the First Lady, every year."
-- Donald Trump's presidential campaign promise.
pgi...@my-deja.com
Is all this sampling of phrases going somewhere?
You do realize that "it set her teeth on edge" is a transitive
structure and that you are trying to use it to validate an intransitive
one "her teeth are setting on edge."? You can't do that. Usage rules
for transitive verbs do not carry to their intransitive cases. Anyone
with some idea of basic grammar knows that.
Any dictionary will show you that the verb set has different senses
when it is transitive and intransitive. That is why you can say "I set
the book on the table" but you cannot say "the book is setting on the
table."
Pat
In article <7udlue$ahl$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
"D. Spencer Hines" <N...@ToSpam.edu> wrote:
> "When she saw her drunken husband hanging from the lamppost in front
of
> their home, it set her teeth on edge. She shushed the children and
> reached for her rolling pin." [D. Spencer Hines]
>
> Hmmmm, are her teeth now "sitting" on edge in England, Wales --- and
> Cornwall? Are they "sitting" on edge in Scotland and Ireland, as
well?
> How about in Canada?
>
> Well, when she gets hold of that drunken husband by the ear and
softens
> him up a bit with the rolling pin, he will find himself "sat on the
> bench," no doubt.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
pgi...@my-deja.com
> Vide infra.
> Participles derived from <set> and <sit>, as well as gerunds and
> gerundives, are certainly on limits in this discussion.
> We are Lumpers, not Splitters --- Hedgehogs not Foxes --- at least in
> this stage of the discussion. To exclude at this stage is lunacy. We
> need to construct a big tent and a large net. Only a rabid squirrel
> would try to insist on a small nest, under these conditions.
> Further, the issue is certainly not <"Setting or Sitting?">, so I have
> changed the subject line back to what it should be --- and as I had
it.
This guy operates by the principle "A moving target is harder to
hit."
He claims that the proper use of setting and sitting is that which
makes "the watch is setting on the desk" the right way to say "the
watch is sitting on the desk."
He has been told here repeatedly that setting used to mean sitting is
archaic and non-standard. Now he is beating about bush telling us what
the issue is not, but he won't tell us what the issue is. A blurred
focus always helps when trying to paper over errors.
His diversions may lead a few up the garden path, but the attentive
reader will see that he has clearly been found wrong in the matter
of "the watch is setting on the desk," and now he is on the look-out
for greener pastures. Watch him change the subject by small steps.
I would recommend a better attitude towards errors. Admit them with
grace and move on. Not doing so fools no one but yourself, and frankly
it looks pathetic.
Pat
pgi...@my-deja.com
You can put the red-herring of meaning and logic of the idiom back in
your pocket. Your transparent evasion fools no one. We've noticed that
you are firmly on your trek to tiptoe away from claims you have made
and can't support. The heart of the matter is encapsulated in "the
watch is setting on the desk," a use of set over sit which you have
vehemently recommended over the normally used "the watch is sitting on
the desk."
What digression will you think of next to distract readers from the
issue of setting and sitting?
The burden of proof is on the claimant. You claim that "the watch is
setting and not sitting." Provide references. It is not up to us to
prove you wrong, although it won't be hard.
Pat
Vide infra.
I did not "validate" anything.
Don't try to put words in my mouth.
Once again, examining the meaning and logic of the idiom, if Y's teeth
have been set on edge, how were they positioned [figuratively, to be
sure] before they were set "on edge" and how are they positioned after
they are set "on edge"?
--
Skitt
pgi...@my-deja.com wrote:
<about the upside-down poster who always says:>
> > Vide infra.
<snip>
>
> His diversions may lead a few up the garden path, but the attentive
> reader will see that he has clearly been found wrong in the matter
> of "the watch is setting on the desk," and now he is on the look-out
> for greener pastures. Watch him change the subject by small steps.
This attentive reader read a couple of his early posts, answered one of
them with a correction, and then skipped the rest of them unread.
--
Skitt http://i.am/skitt/
pgi...@my-deja.com
s-t-a-n-d-i-n-g is not s-e-t-t-i-n-g.
The dictionary has separate entries for stand and set. Why is that?
Hmmm, maybe because there are differences between these two words?
Why would you coin a phrase using standing when we are discussing
setting and sitting? Because you will write anything but face the
music.
Own up man, you were wrong. We know it, you know it, and each feeble
attempt you make to call attention away from it makes you look even
more foolish.
Pat
Vide infra.
Really?
"When I entered the master bedroom, Samantha was standing the mannequin
in the far corner, nearest the jacuzzi."
"Now, the mannequin is standing in the corner and Samantha and I are in
the jacuzzi. Yummy."
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
pgi...@my-deja.com
"When you have a weak argument pound on the table."
This guy is pounding the table so hard, soon there will be no table to
set anything on. Hell, he even brings the bible into it, but not even
divine intervention will save you from the set/sit howler.
Do you see that mannequin in the jacuzzi with you and Samantha? It
knows more grammar than you do.
Pat Gilbos (Phew! It took some courage)
Vide infra for a large ration of balderdash from "Pat" --- a genuine
rabid squirrel --- who does not even have the courage to use his or her
full name.
pgi...@my-deja.com
You are face down in mud handcuffed with your own words, hardly in a
position to be rough or gentle on others. Why worry about my sex when
you still have to prove the cock-and-bull story you tried to put over
us with set and sit? You should go back to school.
Pat
| Pat Gilbos (Phew! It took some courage)
I do declare.
Female or Male? If you're female I'll be more gentle with you, but
don't take it for granted.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Richard Fontana
>their home, it set her teeth on edge. She shushed the children and
>reached for her rolling pin." [D. Spencer Hines]
>
>Hmmmm, are her teeth now "sitting" on edge in England, Wales --- and
>Cornwall? Are they "sitting" on edge in Scotland and Ireland, as well?
>How about in Canada?
How about in the United States? In standard American English, her teeth
are not "setting on edge", or "sitting on edge" for that matter, even
though something set her teeth on edge.
Richard
arjay
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:7ue6i5$640$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
> Vide infra.
>
> No, you misunderstand.
>
> I'm probing the meaning and logic of the idiom.
>
> What happens after someone's "teeth are set on edge?"
>
> Why weren't the teeth "set on edge" before?
Perhaps because in the time before "she saw her drunken husband hanging
from the lamppost in front
of their home," she wasn't clenching and grinding them in anger. Do
that with sufficient violence and your teeth might, just conceivably, be
displaced by 90 degrees. Using "set" in the sense of "arrange," this
would satisfy your objection.
Of course, it would also require a quick trip to an orthodontist.
arjay
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> --
>
> "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
> misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
> England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
> after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every
able-bodied
> man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
>
> Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> wrote in message
> news:slrn80l4s...@localhost.localdomain...
>
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> Vide infra.
>
> Four intriguing examples:
>
> "A house set on a hilltop."
>
> "A sky set with stars."
>
> "Eyes set deep in his head."
>
> [Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language,
> Unabridged, p. 2077]
>
> "A lid set with inlaid strips of teak and rosewood."
> --
All of these examples of "set" are adjectives, or if you want to be more
precise past participles of "set" used adjectivally. The actual
discussion is the use of "set" as a verb.
(N.B. Please post your comment after the text you're ciommenting on.
That is standard practice in this ng. It's also much easier to read.)
eo'c
D. Spencer Hines
No, not in the least.
We are not discriminatory here, with respect to either people or words.
Participles derived from <set> and <sit>, as well as gerunds and
gerundives, are certainly on limits in this discussion.
We are Lumpers, not Splitters --- Hedgehogs not Foxes --- at least in
this stage of the discussion. To exclude at this stage is lunacy. We
need to construct a big tent and a large net. Only a rabid squirrel
would try to insist on a small nest, under these conditions.
Further, the issue is certainly not <"Setting or Sitting?">, so I have
changed the subject line back to what it should be --- and as I had it.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
Einde O'Callaghan <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote in message
news:380AC6BF...@planet-interkom.de...
| D. Spencer Hines schrieb:
| >
| > Vide infra.
| >
| > Four intriguing examples:
| >
| > "A house set on a hilltop."
| >
| > "A sky set with stars."
| >
| > "Eyes set deep in his head."
| >
| > [Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English
Language,
| > Unabridged, p. 2077]
| >
| > "A lid set with inlaid strips of teak and rosewood."
| > --
|
| All of these examples of "set" are adjectives, or if you want to be
more
| precise past participles of "set" used adjectivally. The actual
| discussion is the use of "set" as a verb.
|
| (N.B. Please post your comment after the text you're ciommenting [sic]
D. Spencer Hines
grammatical discussion.
No, no blasphemy intended --- of any sort --- just a little creative
authority rattling.
Matthew 5:14-16 [King James Version]:
"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set upon an hill cannot
be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but
on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works,
and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
D. Spencer Hines
1. This is by no means a dialectical example. Check the Merriam
Webster's Collegiate dictionary, 10th Edition, p. 1071, yourself, if you
don't believe me.
2. Your one-line squibs and hit-and-run attacks are most unimpressive.
Personal opinion is not a valid substitute for a citation. Surely you
can do better.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
Stan Brown <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.127532eba...@news.mindspring.com...
| D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu (D. Spencer Hines) wrote in
| alt.usage.english:
| >Even a cursory glance at _Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,
Tenth
| >Edition_, p. 1071, will reveal at least 10, non-dialectical,
| >intransitive, usage definitions for <set;set;setting>.
| >
| >Here is just one of them:
| >
| >"To become lodged or fixed: <the pudding set heavily on my stomach>."
|
| I think you need to work a little harder to find a non-dialectical
| example.
|
| --
| Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
| http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
D. Spencer Hines
I did not "validate" anything.
Don't try to put words in my mouth.
Once again, examining the meaning and logic of the idiom, if Y's teeth
have been set on edge, how were they positioned [figuratively, to be
sure] before they were set "on edge" and how are they positioned after
they are set "on edge"?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
<pgi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7ufp0s$srf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
|
|
| Is all this sampling of phrases going somewhere?
|
| You do realize that "it set her teeth on edge" is a transitive
| structure and that you are trying to use it to validate an
intransitive
| one "her teeth are setting on edge."? You can't do that. Usage rules
| for transitive verbs do not carry to their intransitive cases.
Anyone
| with some idea of basic grammar knows that.
|
| Any dictionary will show you that the verb set has different senses
| when it is transitive and intransitive. That is why you can say "I
set
| the book on the table" but you cannot say "the book is setting on the
| table."
|
| Pat
|
|
|
|
| In article <7udlue$ahl$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
| "D. Spencer Hines" <N...@ToSpam.edu> wrote:
|
| > "When she saw her drunken husband hanging from the lamppost in front
| of
| > their home, it set her teeth on edge. She shushed the children and
| > reached for her rolling pin." [D. Spencer Hines]
| >
| > Hmmmm, are her teeth now "sitting" on edge in England, Wales --- and
| > Cornwall? Are they "sitting" on edge in Scotland and Ireland, as
| well?
| > How about in Canada?
| >
D. Spencer Hines
Really?
"When I entered the master bedroom, Samantha was standing the mannequin
in the far corner, nearest the jacuzzi."
"Now, the mannequin is standing in the corner and Samantha and I are in
the jacuzzi. Yummy."
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:...
D. Spencer Hines
rabid squirrel --- who does not even have the courage to use his or her
full name.
"When I entered the master bedroom, Samantha was standing the mannequin
in the far corner, nearest the jacuzzi."
"Now, the mannequin is standing in the corner and Samantha and I are in
the jacuzzi. Yummy."
"Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest." --- [of the Scriptures] --- The
Second Sunday in Advent, The Collect, The Book of Common Prayer [1928],
p. 92
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
<pgi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7ufrpv$usb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
|
| > Vide infra.
|
| > Participles derived from <set> and <sit>, as well as gerunds and
| > gerundives, are certainly on limits in this discussion.
|
| > We are Lumpers, not Splitters --- Hedgehogs not Foxes --- at least
in
| > this stage of the discussion. To exclude at this stage is lunacy.
We
| > need to construct a big tent and a large net. Only a rabid squirrel
| > would try to insist on a small nest, under these conditions.
|
| > Further, the issue is certainly not <"Setting or Sitting?">, so I
have
| > changed the subject line back to what it should be --- and as I had
| > it.
|
|
|
| This guy...
<baldersnip>
D. Spencer Hines
I do declare.
Female or Male? If you're female I'll be more gentle with you, but
don't take it for granted.
Einde O'Callaghan
>
<all snipped due to your infuriating habit of posting your comments
before the text your referring to.>
I had intended replying to this posting but the constant scrolling back
and forth was just too much hassle.
eo'c
D. Spencer Hines
1. You are obviously a dinosaur.
2. Learn the difference between <you're> and <your>.
3. I'll bet you break your eggs on the wrong end too.
4. Are you dinosaurs all using the obsolete Mozilla. Mozilla/Godzilla,
OK, I understand the logic and the familial affinity. Blood is thicker
than water, eh?
5. Have a nice day.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
Einde O'Callaghan <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote in message
news:380B8EAF...@planet-interkom.de...
| D. Spencer Hines schrieb:
| >
| all snipped due to [<because of> would have been better]
| your infuriating habit of posting your comments
| before the text your [sic] referring to.
pgi...@my-deja.com
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote
--- Vide infra.
--- 1. You are obviously a dinosaur.
--- 2. Learn the difference between <you're> and <your>.
Some nerve.
1. Learn the difference between set and sit.
2. Learn how to post.
3. Beg, borrow or steal some intellectual honesty.
4. Drop the Latin
5. Drop the cultured signatures.
This piece of killfile fodder (former guy) has contributed 0.00 to this
newsgroup and has probably misled a bunch of people who come here to
learn proper English usage. In his short stay he has demonstrated two
credible abilities.
1. Clueless pomposity.
2. Intellectual dishonesty.
The clueless can be given a clue, but the pompous clueless are
unteachable. The intellectually honest knows and admits when he errs,
but the intellectually dishonest won't admit he is boxed in even if it
kills him.
Have a nice life,
Pat
--------------------------
Gwen Lenker
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
>Vide infra.
>
>1. You are obviously a dinosaur.
>
>2. Learn the difference between <you're> and <your>.
>
>3. I'll bet you break your eggs on the wrong end too.
>
>4. Are you dinosaurs all using the obsolete Mozilla. Mozilla/Godzilla,
>OK, I understand the logic and the familial affinity. Blood is thicker
>than water, eh?
>
>5. Have a nice day.
1. Psst.
2. Hey, Spence.
3. Vide supra.
4. WHAP! Fwappitafwappitafwappitafwappitafwappita.
5. Hehehe.
Peter Moylan
>Vide infra.
Why? What pleasure does it give you to have us chase backwards and
forwards trying to figure out what you're talking about?
Oh, and your signature separator is wrong, too. Vide infra.
*plonk*
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
See http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au for OS/2 information and software
Wes Groleau
Because there are fewer four-letter words in the flame-fests.
Why should you skip it?
Because they're still flame-fests.
Wes Groleau
> Why did you post this?
>
> To incite a flame-fest.
It worked, didn't it? Oh, Hines was there first? Shucks! :-)
Wes Groleau
> How would a cultured and educated Brit express her or himself? ---
>
> "The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothchild is setting on the
> rosewood buffet in the parlour."
I am not a "Brit" but I don't think that explains why
I'd more likely say, "The booze is in the closet."
D. Spencer Hines
The postulated example is:
"The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild is setting on the
rosewood buffet in the parlour."
A closet is not a buffet.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
Wes Groleau <wwg...@ftw.rsc.raytheon.com> wrote in message
news:380CB458...@ftw.rsc.raytheon.com...
Lee Daniel Crocker
> Four intriguing examples:
>
> "A house set on a hilltop."
> "A sky set with stars."
> "Eyes set deep in his head."
Sorry, that's 100 pompous points for unnecessary use of Latin
by someone who can't tell the difference between an active
verb and a participle.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
John Emery
----------
>
>
>D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote
>
>--- Vide infra.
>
>--- 1. You are obviously a dinosaur.
>
>--- 2. Learn the difference between <you're> and <your>.
>
>Some nerve.
>
>1. Learn the difference between set and sit.
>
>2. Learn how to post.
>
>3. Beg, borrow or steal some intellectual honesty.
>
>4. Drop the Latin
>
>5. Drop the cultured signatures.
Alas, your advice will not be heeded. Many have preceded you.
>This piece of killfile fodder (former guy) has contributed 0.00 to this
>newsgroup and has probably misled a bunch of people who come here to
>learn proper English usage. In his short stay he has demonstrated two
>credible abilities.
>
>1. Clueless pomposity.
>
>2. Intellectual dishonesty.
>
>The clueless can be given a clue, but the pompous clueless are
>unteachable. The intellectually honest knows and admits when he errs,
>but the intellectually dishonest won't admit he is boxed in even if it
>kills him.
>
You have struck the metallic fastener upon its apex! Consult
soc.history.medieval anytime in the past couple of years for a truly
astonishing display. I recommend total ignorance as the only solution.
arjay
John Emery <ucd...@jfemery.edu> wrote in message
news:7uishn$c45$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu...
>
<snip>
> You have struck the metallic fastener upon its apex! Consult
> soc.history.medieval anytime in the past couple of years for a truly
> astonishing display. I recommend total ignorance as the only
solution.
Is it that you don't know something I don't know, or is it that one of
the words you intended for the paragraph above has been transmogrified?
Are you recommending total avoidance?
arjay
Tony Jebson
[snip]
Darn! I thought this post was going to be about Old English
Strong and Weak verbs . . . it turns out to be about good
ol' D. Spencer, who I've had killfiled for ages. Ho hum,
life is full of disappointments.
--- Tony Jebson
99 Swa tha drihtguman dreamum lifdon,
eadiglice, oththaet an ongan
fyrene fremman feond on helle;
waes se grimma gaest D. Spencer haten ...
pgi...@my-deja.com
> You have struck the metallic fastener upon its apex! Consult
> soc.history.medieval anytime in the past couple of years for a truly
> astonishing display. I recommend total ignorance as the only
solution.
I had a quick look and I see what you mean. Scorpions make friends more
easily than this Hines guy. What an unmitigated Usenet pariah! If the
NGs didn’t have a highly transient population, this guy would be
reduced to beggary to interact with someone. I have never seen the
word “pompous” so many times as it has rained on Hines here in the last
few days. I won’t be surprised to look up the word in the dictionary
and see his picture next to it.
He is obsessed with correctness in things like editing posts, and
neglects such “inconsequential” aspects of living as getting along with
the rest of his species.
Penny Wise and Pound Foolish.
The Latin, the pretentious signatures, the orthographical mania, are
all signs at some level that he wants to make a good impression and be
thought of as a well-educated, intellectual figure. But he makes it
impossible, consciously or not, by stepping on as many toes per hour as
he can. All the hard work he put into learning Latin, selecting
quotes, crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s, results at best in a half-
baked imitation of the person of great consequence in human affairs he
wants to be.
He is probably amused by the reaction his artful posturing provokes,
feeling safe by virtue of the apparent impunity this medium confers.
But no one knows how the public archives will be used tomorrow, and in
what meandering way the personal profiles they reveal may come back to
haunt him.
In other words: a nut case.
Pat "still forcing Hines to use 'he or she'" Gilbos
pgi...@my-deja.com
news:7uic2u$gj2$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
> Are there quite a few folks here who actually teach English at the
> secondary school level?
They are all busy look elsewhere. Read the FAQ while you are
waiting for one who will teach you. Continue reading the FAQ after he
discovers he hasn't got the stomach.
Pat
Larry Phillips
Bye. Don't let the door slam you in the ass on your way out.
Albert Marshall
>
>> You have struck the metallic fastener upon its apex! Consult
>> soc.history.medieval anytime in the past couple of years for a truly
>> astonishing display. I recommend total ignorance as the only
>solution.
>
>the words you intended for the paragraph above has been transmogrified?
>Are you recommending total avoidance?
>
In addition to the characteristic that the Hines exhibits "ignorance"
can also be the abstract noun derived from "ignore".
"Avoidance" ---- "avoiding"
"Ignorance" ---- "ignoring"
--
Albert Marshall
John Emery
----------
In article <jznMSyAn...@execfrog.demon.co.uk>, Albert Marshall
<th...@tesco.net> wrote:
Indeed.
arjay
Albert Marshall <th...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:jznMSyAn...@execfrog.demon.co.uk...
> Quoth arjay <ar...@nonline.net>
> >
> >John Emery <ucd...@jfemery.edu> wrote in message
> >news:7uishn$c45$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu...
> >>
> ><snip>
> >
>
> In addition to the characteristic that the Hines exhibits "ignorance"
> can also be the abstract noun derived from "ignore".
>
> "Avoidance" ---- "avoiding"
> "Ignorance" ---- "ignoring"
> --
Ahah! indeed. That's why I posted.
In my lexicon, however, while "avoidance" is a noun indicating the
process of avoiding, "ignorance" indcates only lack of knowledge (about
a thing).
Thus, one can only ignore those things of which one is *not* ignorant.
One may, perhaps, wish to restored to such a blissful state.
arjay
pgi...@my-deja.com
news:380f0...@news2.vip.uk.com...
> >> "The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothchild is setting
on the
> >> rosewood buffet in the parlour."
>
>
>
> Anne
> Educated (but maybe not cultured) Brit
>
>
The author of this beauty, Hines boy (who probably can afford only
Zinfandel on a plastic table, but read Robb Report in the barber shop),
knows it. But it is so very difficult to say you are wrong when you are
so passionately in love with yourself.
anne.burgess
in "The house set on a hill" or "The sky set with stars" the 'set' is not a
verb in its own right, but part of an adjectival phrase describing the house
or the sky respectively. If you wanted simply to state where the house
is/was, you would have to say " the house is/was set on a hill", or "the
house sits/sat on a hill".
I go with the view that 'set' is transitive and therefore requires an
object, whereas 'sit' is intransitive and cannot be used with an object.
My house sits in a village, my books sit on the bookshelf (well, as many as
can fit on the shelf - the rest lie (NOT 'lay') on the floor), my plates and
my glasses sit on shelves or in cupboards. I don't have a cat or dog, but I
sit on various chairs or the floor as appropriate and the birds in my garden
sit in the bushes.
I might set ornaments on the mantelpiece, but after that they sit there.
The phrase 'sit a horse' for example is a contraction of 'sit ON a horse'.
However I have to accept one specific exception: the sun sets. In the
sentence "the sun sets on the horizon", the phrase "on the horizon" is not
the object of a transitive verb, it is an adjectival phrase modifying an
intransitive verb.
Anne
anne.burgess
tiglath
anne.burgess <anne.b...@newscientist.net> wrote
There is a good number of uses of 'set' as an intransitive verb; one
reason why 'set' is the longest entry in the OED. We say "the cement
is setting," "the creme brulee is setting," etc. But in the "the
cement is setting," 'set' takes the sense of 'hardening,' in the "the
creme brulee is setting," the sense of coagulating" and in "the sun is
setting," the sense of 'descending.' In the sense of 'sit, or be
seated,' as in "the book is setting on the table," 'set' is
non-standard, dialectal, or vulgar English in the U.S. and Scotland,
and not used elsewhere. See the OED, the NSOED, the AHD, and other
dictionaries.
D. Spencer Hines
rosewood buffet in the parlour."
There appears to be a small, disgruntled sample of quite ignorant people
here who do not realize that I'm floating alternative grammatical
structures --- with participles, gerundives and a partridge in a pear
tree.
Some of these ignorant people are also angry. An Ignorant/Angry person
is something to view with amusement, a sense of pity --- and a
cultivated detachment. N'est-ce pas?
Everything is definitely NOT hunky-dory with these outcasts --- detritus
cast on the lee shore of life. <groak>
We've yet to hear from the Scots and the Irish.
Would a Scot or an Irish person ever say, "The house sets on the lot?"
Virginians?
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> In article <7ufrpv$usb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> pgi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> <about the upside-down poster who always says:>
> > > Vide infra.
> <snip>
> >
> > His diversions may lead a few up the garden path, but the attentive
> > reader will see that he has clearly been found wrong in the matter
> > of "the watch is setting on the desk," and now he is on the look-out
> > for greener pastures. Watch him change the subject by small steps.
>
> This attentive reader read a couple of his early posts, answered one of
> them with a correction, and then skipped the rest of them unread.
> --
I'm now beginning to feel that this was perhaps a sound policy.
eo'c
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> <pgi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:7ufp0s$srf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> | In article <7udlue$ahl$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
> | "D. Spencer Hines" <N...@ToSpam.edu> wrote:
> |
> | > "When she saw her drunken husband hanging from the lamppost in front
> | of
> | > their home, it set her teeth on edge. She shushed the children and
> | > reached for her rolling pin." [D. Spencer Hines]
> | >
> | > Hmmmm, are her teeth now "sitting" on edge in England, Wales --- and
> | > Cornwall? Are they "sitting" on edge in Scotland and Ireland, as
> | well?
> | > How about in Canada?
> | >
> | > Well, when she gets hold of that drunken husband by the ear and
> | softens
> | > him up a bit with the rolling pin, he will find himself "sat on the
> | > bench," no doubt.
> |
> | Is all this sampling of phrases going somewhere?
> |
> | You do realize that "it set her teeth on edge" is a transitive
> | structure and that you are trying to use it to validate an
> intransitive
> | one "her teeth are setting on edge."? You can't do that. Usage rules
> | for transitive verbs do not carry to their intransitive cases.
> Anyone
> | with some idea of basic grammar knows that.
> |
> | Any dictionary will show you that the verb set has different senses
> | when it is transitive and intransitive. That is why you can say "I
> set
> | the book on the table" but you cannot say "the book is setting on the
> | table."
> |
> Vide infra.
Now "Vide supra".
>
> I did not "validate" anything.
>
> Don't try to put words in my mouth.
>
> Once again, examining the meaning and logic of the idiom, if Y's teeth
> have been set on edge, how were they positioned [figuratively, to be
> sure] before they were set "on edge" and how are they positioned after
> they are set "on edge"?
> --
>
When you "set a clock at 8 o'clock" the position of the hands is "8
o'clock". When a persons teeeth are "set on edge" then you can say that
they are "on edge". No need for a verb other than the verb "to be".
Finis. Ende. Fini. The End.
eo'c
(As always, I have put your postings into a readable and logical [i.e.
chronological] order. I'm not certain I'll bother to do so again.)
Einde O'Callaghan
> | D. Spencer Hines schrieb:
> | >
> | > Vide infra.
> | >
> | > Four intriguing examples:
> | >
> | > "A house set on a hilltop."
> | >
> | > "A sky set with stars."
> | >
> | > "Eyes set deep in his head."
> | >
> Language,
> | > Unabridged, p. 2077]
> | >
> | > "A lid set with inlaid strips of teak and rosewood."
> |
> | All of these examples of "set" are adjectives, or if you want to be
> more
> | precise past participles of "set" used adjectivally. The actual
> | discussion is the use of "set" as a verb.
> |
> | (N.B. Please post your comment after the text you're ciommenting [sic]
This is known as a "typo", all typists make them, so there is no need
for sarcastic comments.
> on.
> | That is standard practice in this ng. It's also much easier to read.)
> |
> | eo'c
>
> Vide infra.
>
> No, not in the least.
>
> We are not discriminatory here, with respect to either people or words.
>
> Participles derived from <set> and <sit>, as well as gerunds and
> gerundives, are certainly on limits in this discussion.
>
> We are Lumpers, not Splitters --- Hedgehogs not Foxes --- at least in
> this stage of the discussion. To exclude at this stage is lunacy. We
> need to construct a big tent and a large net. Only a rabid squirrel
> would try to insist on a small nest, under these conditions.
>
The relevance of this comment escapes me.
> Further, the issue is certainly not <"Setting or Sitting?">, so I have
> changed the subject line back to what it should be --- and as I had it.
Since I simply replied to a posting without changing the header I'm not
responsible for what other people did to your header.
I simply wanted to point out that we cannot regard "set" in the examples
you give as being a full verb and these examples are not independent
sentences. They are in fact noun phrases.
Let's look at your four examples:
1. "A house set on a hilltop" = "a house which is/was set on a hilltop".
2. "A sky set with stars" = "a sky which is/was set with stars".
3. "Eyes set deep in his head" = "eyes which are/were set deep in his
head".
4. "A lid set with inlaid strips of teak and rosewood" = "a lid which
is/was set with inlaid strips of teak and rosewood".
Other people were discussing the the use of "set" as a "synonym" for
"sit", which it is in certain dialects but not in standard English. I
felt your examples were not relevant to this discussion, regardless (or
even irregardless [invisible smiley]) of whether you initiated this
thread or not. Once you post something here it becomes the property of
all participants in the ng and can go in any direction. And you can't
ask for your ball back.
Your practice of posting your comments before the text your commenting
on is tedious and I almost ignored this because I thought: "Oh no, not
again!" By chance I scrolled down and discovered that it was a reply to
me. If you continue with this practice I feel that you will get up
people's noses so much that they will ignore your postings no matter how
interesting they might be.
eo'c
Peter Hesketh
writes
>In the sense of 'sit, or be
>seated,' as in "the book is setting on the table," 'set' is
>non-standard, dialectal, or vulgar English in the U.S. and Scotland,
>and not used elsewhere.
I have heard it Potteries dialect (Stoke-on-Trent area, UK) in "Set thi
dine", or "Do sit yourself down".
--
Regards, Peter Hesketh, Mynyddbach, Monmouthshire UK
"Remember....Never drive faster than
your Guardian Angel can fly." - Anon
Olwyn Mawr
<7unmau$ngu$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>"The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild is setting on the
>rosewood buffet in the parlour."
Hello again DSH. I wondered if you would eventually follow up the "U.S.
local usage?" thread I started here in September.
I see the good people on a.u.e. have added quite a lot to the Hint List.
Robert Lieblich
>
> >> "The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothchild is setting on the
> >> rosewood buffet in the parlour."
>
Unless, perhaps, the speaker, having imbibed too much, is slowly sinking
to the floor. If it helps, think of the bottle as being in the west.
Bob Lieblich
Robert Lieblich
>
> "The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild is setting on the
> rosewood buffet in the parlour."
>
> here who do not realize that I'm floating alternative grammatical
> structures --- with participles, gerundives and a partridge in a pear
> tree.
There is no gerundive form in English.
<snip>
>
> Would a Scot or an Irish person ever say, "The house sets on the lot?"
>
> Virginians?
I have lived in Virginia for more than half my life. Except in parody,
I would never say "The house sets on the lot."
The question mark in your penultimate paragraph should appear outside
the quotation marks. Typo or ignorance?
Bob Lieblich
tiglath
Peter Hesketh <p...@phesk.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:STXticBrX4D4Ewj$@phesk.demon.co.uk...
> In article <7unmpe$9dj$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>, tiglath
<tig...@usa.net>
> writes
> >In the sense of 'sit, or be
> >seated,' as in "the book is setting on the table," 'set' is
> >non-standard, dialectal, or vulgar English in the U.S. and
Scotland,
> >and not used elsewhere.
>
> I have heard it Potteries dialect (Stoke-on-Trent area, UK) in "Set
thi
> dine", or "Do sit yourself down".
According to the OED 'set' as 'sit' derives from the reflexive form of
'to seat.' To be precise, the "not used elsewhere" was my addition
based on my own experience. The OED reads more precisely "dial. or
vulgar. Mainly U.S." The NSOED adds Scotland to it.
pgi...@my-deja.com
news:380F90...@erols.com...
> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> >
> > "The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild is setting
on the
> > rosewood buffet in the parlour."
> >
> > There appears to be a small, disgruntled sample of quite ignorant
people
> > here who do not realize that I'm floating alternative grammatical
> > structures --- with participles, gerundives and a partridge in a
pear
> > tree.
>
> There is no gerundive form in English.
This does not mean he cannot float gerundives around here, please.
They sound much more impressive than mere gerunds. Watch out for those
Hines's floaters, after stuffing himself with pears and partridges in
the parlour (corn dogs in the trailer more likely).
>
> <snip>
> >
> > Would a Scot or an Irish person ever say, "The house sets on the
lot?"
> >
> > Virginians?
>
> I have lived in Virginia for more than half my life. Except in
parody,
> I would never say "The house sets on the lot."
>
> The question mark in your penultimate paragraph should appear outside
> the quotation marks. Typo or ignorance?
>
> Bob Lieblich
Both, plus typo ignorance.
Donald Cameron McTavish
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes
>"The decanter with the 1984 Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild is setting on the
>rosewood buffet in the parlour."
>
>There appears to be a small, disgruntled sample of quite ignorant people
>here who do not realize that I'm floating alternative grammatical
>structures --- with participles, gerundives and a partridge in a pear
>tree.
And do they float, or do they sink without trace?
>
[ - ]
>
>Everything is definitely NOT hunky-dory with these outcasts --- detritus
>cast on the lee shore of life. <groak>
>
I see you're unfamiliar with the word 'groak'. It means 'to gaze
longingly at the food on another man's plate'. You might like to check
this after your evening ego massage.
>We've yet to hear from the Scots and the Irish.
Ar well, laddie, there's mebbe a reason.
>
>Would a Scot or an Irish person ever say, "The house sets on the lot?"
>
Lot? lot of what? (dinna tempt me, laddie)
>Virginians?
>
>D. Spencer Hines
I cannae find the verb 'to hine' in ma Chambers, be so kind as to tell
us what it means.
--
Donald Cameron McTavish
from the Granite City
John Holmes
Donald Cameron McTavish wrote in message ...
>In article <7unmau$ngu$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, D. Spencer Hines
><D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes
>>Virginians?
>>
>>D. Spencer Hines
>
>I cannae find the verb 'to hine' in ma Chambers, be so kind as to tell
>us what it means.
It must surely be a verbal formation from the Latin noun 'hinnus'.
Regards,
John.
Harald Manninga
> Donald Cameron McTavish wrote in message ...
> >In article <7unmau$ngu$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, D.
> >Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes
> >>D. Spencer Hines
> >
> >I cannae find the verb 'to hine' in ma Chambers, be so
> >kind as to tell us what it means.
>
> It must surely be a verbal formation from the Latin noun
> 'hinnus'.
The verb you are looking for is "hinnire".
Regards
Harry
--
"Wheee!" goes the popsle.
cathymang...@gmail.com
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
> You do “sit” a horse. That is correct and not referring to making a horse sit. It describes a human sitting in the saddle, you sit a horse meaning you ride a horse.
>