Sideburns/Sideboards
MC
in front of the ears "sideboards" not "sideburns" but I never hear it or
see it in print these days on either side of the pond.
I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a family coinage or was
it a regionalism?
david56
I certainly did and do; I also grew up in the Midlands (Kenilworth and
Bromsgrove).
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.
Dr Robin Bignall
'Sideboards' is BrE; 'sideburns' is AmE. Early to middle 1950s during the
Teddy-Boy era, and '77 Sunset Strip'. Eddie, the car-hop, had them in that.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Remote Hertfordshire
England
John Dean
> MC wrote:
>> When I was growing up in Birmingham, England we called the facial
>> hair in front of the ears "sideboards" not "sideburns" but I never
>> hear it or see it in print these days on either side of the pond.
>>
>> I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a family coinage or
>> was it a regionalism?
>
> I certainly did and do; I also grew up in the Midlands (Kenilworth
> and Bromsgrove).
Ever thus in Manchester.
OED confirms :
1907 Daily Chron. 7 Dec. 5/7 You have described the duke as having small
whiskers?-Yes, they were sideboards. Where did you get that name?-I have
been in America.+ You call them sideboards?-Yes, or sideburns. 1956 D. M.
Davin Sullen Bell ii. iv. 136 He was a miserable little sod, with sideboards
and an American tie. 1961 H. S. Turner Something Extraordinary i. 9 The
boys are dressed in the Teddy style, with tight trousers and sideboards.
1975 M. Bradbury History Man vi. 97 He takes his razor+clipping at the line
of the sideboards.
American 'sideburn' is said to be derived from 'Burnside', a Civil War
General. Always seemed funny to me. We don't have boots called Tonwellings
or warm clothes called Gancardis. We don't eat Wichsands.
It was also an American soldier who gave his name to Hookers. There's a
thesis to be written on Variations between Nationalities in Usage of
Military Proper Names as Objects. The Yanks obviously have items to do with
personal pleasure and grooming, we have food and clothing. The Russians have
improvised weapons of war. The French have card games...
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Kelly Cooper
step-father from Stoke-on-Trent, we live in the southern area of the
Midlands and everybody calls them sideburns!!
"MC" <copeS...@ca.inter.net> wrote in message
news:copeSPAMZAP-2D1B...@newsfeeder.total.net...
Laura F Spira
>
> MC wrote:
> > When I was growing up in Birmingham, England we called the facial hair
> > in front of the ears "sideboards" not "sideburns" but I never hear it or
> > see it in print these days on either side of the pond.
> >
> > I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a family coinage or was
> > it a regionalism?
>
> I certainly did and do; I also grew up in the Midlands (Kenilworth and
> Bromsgrove).
AOL. I grew up in the northwest suburbs of London.
NSOED has nothing for sideburn but for sideboard says:
Hair grown as a whisker at the side of a man’s face (sometimes
continuing on to his cheek). Usu. in pl. colloq. L19.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
meirman
<john...@frag.lineone.net> posted:
>david56 wrote:
>> MC wrote:
>>> When I was growing up in Birmingham, England we called the facial
>>> hair in front of the ears "sideboards" not "sideburns" but I never
>>> hear it or see it in print these days on either side of the pond.
>>>
>>> I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a family coinage or
>>> was it a regionalism?
>>
>> I certainly did and do; I also grew up in the Midlands (Kenilworth
>> and Bromsgrove).
>
>Ever thus in Manchester.
>
>OED confirms :
>
>1907 Daily Chron. 7 Dec. 5/7 You have described the duke as having small
>whiskers?-Yes, they were sideboards. Where did you get that name?-I have
>been in America.+ You call them sideboards?-Yes, or sideburns. 1956 D. M.
>Davin Sullen Bell ii. iv. 136 He was a miserable little sod, with sideboards
>and an American tie. 1961 H. S. Turner Something Extraordinary i. 9 The
>boys are dressed in the Teddy style, with tight trousers and sideboards.
>1975 M. Bradbury History Man vi. 97 He takes his razor+clipping at the line
>of the sideboards.
>
>
>American 'sideburn' is said to be derived from 'Burnside', a Civil War
>General. Always seemed funny to me. We don't have boots called Tonwellings
>or warm clothes called Gancardis. We don't eat Wichsands.
Nor does every child from a famous adventurer get kidnapped. Nor
every rock get the faces of presidents carved in it. Many things are
one of a kind. Most especially interesting word origin stories have
something unique about them.
Or, all that is necessary to account for this difference is to find a
relevant difference in the circumstances.
IIRC Burnside had exceptionally large sideburns. Weren't they
lambchops? If the word sideboards was already known, Burnsides
version could easily have been named sideburns. But I don't think
that is necessary. Soldiers like to make jokes about their
commanders, out of hearing range, and I'm pretty sure fiddling with
their names is common. People do that with the names of a lot of
people, famous people, their boss, people they don't like. Maybe the
common thread that, and not items of clothing.
If the hair on the *sides* of his face were noticeable and his name is
Burnsides, I think with all the spare time they had when not fighting,
turning his name backwards to Sideburns would be part of killing time.
>It was also an American soldier who gave his name to Hookers. There's a
>thesis to be written on Variations between Nationalities in Usage of
>Military Proper Names as Objects. The Yanks obviously have items to do with
>personal pleasure and grooming, we have food and clothing. The Russians have
>improvised weapons of war. The French have card games...
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
Matti Lamprhey
>
> It was also an American soldier who gave his name to Hookers.
Whose authority do you have for that, John?
Matti
MC
Dr Robin Bignall <docrobi...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 'Sideboards' is BrE; 'sideburns' is AmE. Early to middle 1950s during the
> Teddy-Boy era, and '77 Sunset Strip'. Eddie, the car-hop, had them in that.
In that era, yes.... but these days I see 'sideburns' all over the place
in BrE.
Actually it is probably more "correct" since I understand it derives
from an American army officer (a Civil War general?) named Burnside, who
had prominent sideburns...
Professor Redwine
"david56" <bass.b...@ntlworld.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3E5CC878...@ntlworld.com...
> MC wrote:
> > When I was growing up in Birmingham, England we called the
facial hair
> > in front of the ears "sideboards" not "sideburns" but I never
hear it or
> > see it in print these days on either side of the pond.
> >
> > I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a family
coinage or was
> > it a regionalism?
>
> I certainly did and do; I also grew up in the Midlands
(Kenilworth and
> Bromsgrove).
They were sideboards in Australia in my parents' day, and so that
is what I grew up calling them.
--
Redwine
Germany
John Dean
Why, Matti, I need no authority. My etymology is as the etymology of 10
because my heart is pure
<thinks> Rats! Foiled again <thinks>
All right, all right.
Strictly speaking (I suppose we *are* speaking strictly? Yes. I thought so)
Fighting Joe Hooker (1814-1879) did not 'give' his name.
AHD4 says ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/92/H0269200.html ) :-
''Hooker had his faults. He may indeed have been insubordinate; he was
undoubtedly an erratic leader. But “Fighting Joe” Hooker is often accused of
one thing he certainly did not do: he did not give his name to prostitutes.
According to a popular story, the men under Hooker's command during the
Civil War were a particularly wild bunch, and would spend much of their time
in brothels when on leave. For this reason, as the story goes, prostitutes
came to be known as hookers. However attractive this theory may be, it
cannot be true. The word hooker with the sense “prostitute” is already
recorded before the Civil War. As early as 1845 it is found in North
Carolina, as reported in Norman Ellsworth Eliason's Tarheel Talk; an
Historical Study of the English Language in North Carolina to 1860,
published in 1956. It also appears in the second edition of John Russell
Bartlett's Dictionary of Americanisms, published in 1859, where it is
defined as “a strumpet, a sailor's trull.” ''
But I suspect the term became more popular because the association. Like
Thomas Crapper.
John Dean
And as if in answer to a maiden's prayer, I suddenly thought to check
Wilton's Word Origins where I find
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorh.htm
''But we should not let old Fighting Joe completely off the hook, as it
were. Civil War historian Bruce Catton writes:
"[Although] the term 'hooker' did not originate during the Civil War, it
certainly became popular then. During these war years, Washington developed
a large [red-light district] somewhere south of Constitution Avenue. This
became known as Hooker's Division in tribute to the proclivities of General
Joseph Hooker and the name has stuck ever since." ''
Matti Lamprhey
> John Dean wrote:
> > Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> >> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote...
> >>>
> >>> It was also an American soldier who gave his name to Hookers.
> >>
> >> Whose authority do you have for that, John?
> >
That seems to be the common view, that "hooker" was around before the
General and that his fortuitous name and associations helped to spread
its use. As you say, the Crapper Effect.
Matti
Professor Redwine
"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:b3juih$1nhgrt$2...@ID-103223.news.dfncis.de...
Hey, that would be a good name for a spoof film!
"The Crapper Effect, starring Joseph Hooker..."
For those of you who understand the game of rugby... Radio Five
in Britain, about four years ago, had a feature where Dominic
Diamond invited listeners to submit celebrity ideas for a
facetious dream team. One listener suggested Hugh Grant, because
he "would make a divine hooker". I nearly crashed the car for
laughter when I heard that one.
--
Redwine
Germany
--
Redwine
Germany
MC
"John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
> ''But we should not let old Fighting Joe completely off the hook, as it
> were. Civil War historian Bruce Catton writes:
> "[Although] the term 'hooker' did not originate during the Civil War, it
> certainly became popular then. During these war years, Washington developed
> a large [red-light district] somewhere south of Constitution Avenue. This
> became known as Hooker's Division in tribute to the proclivities of General
> Joseph Hooker and the name has stuck ever since." ''
>
And... I understand that the origin of the "red light district" was also
American from about the same era. When the railroads were being built
the engineers would avail themselves of charms of the ladies of the
evening who set up shop in the railhead towns. The bosses needed to know
where their men were to make sure the working day got off to an early
start, and required them to hang their red lights outside the houses
they were visiting.
I have no idea if this story is true, but it ought to be, and it sounds
right.
Spehro Pefhany
<copeS...@ca.inter.net> wrote:
>And... I understand that the origin of the "red light district" was also
>American from about the same era. When the railroads were being built
>the engineers would avail themselves of charms of the ladies of the
>evening who set up shop in the railhead towns. The bosses needed to know
>where their men were to make sure the working day got off to an early
>start, and required them to hang their red lights outside the houses
>they were visiting.
>
>I have no idea if this story is true, but it ought to be, and it sounds
>right.
Snopes declares it "undetermined". It sounds far-fetched to me.
Perhaps it was just an advertising gimmick, like the barber poles in
Taiwan. "Red lights at night, sailor's delight".
http://www.snopes.com/language/colors/redlight.htm
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
John Dean
> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote...
>> John Dean wrote:
>>> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>>>> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote...
>>>>>
>>>>> It was also an American soldier who gave his name to Hookers.
>>>>
>>>> Whose authority do you have for that, John?
>>>
>>> Why, Matti, I need no authority. My etymology is as the etymology of
>>> 10 because my heart is pure
>>>
>>> <thinks> Rats! Foiled again <thinks>
>
> General and that his fortuitous name and associations helped to spread
> its use. As you say, the Crapper Effect.
Mind you, although the term was around before Fighting Joe was a General, it
wasn't around before he was a soldier. Earliest usage so far traced is 1845,
at which time Joe was a West Point Graduate (class of '37) and professional
soldier who had served in the Seminole War and who would later serve in the
Mexican campaign which he ended as a brevet Lt Colonel.
He was noted in the Civil War as 'immodest and immoral', but nobody said he
wasn't that way 20 years earlier or that he didn't encourage his troops to
seek the solace of loose women.
O, fighting Joe Hooker the brave,
The nation so proudly admires;
His country and Flag he will save,
From rebels and ruthless vampires.
He will humble the haughty foe.
And scatter their columns of might;
In their ranks spread havoc and woe,
And put the vile dastards to flight.
Margot
"Professor Redwine" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:b3jhcc$1mb8mt$1...@ID-48569.news.dfncis.de...
sideburns seems to have taken over now - when I say sideboards now,
most people seem to think I am referring to dining-room furniture rather
than facial hair. Can be confusing...
Margot
Professor Redwine
"Margot" <mar...@lawrence1961.fsnet.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:b3ltnr$1ohq2p$1...@ID-183453.news.dfncis.de...
you have that problem personally)
--
Redwine
Germany
George Hardy
> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote...
> >
> > It was also an American soldier who gave his name to Hookers.
>
> Whose authority do you have for that, John?
The origin of words and phrases, especially slang, is as much
myth as fact. "The whole nine yards" is a classic example,
as is "OK". When one does not know the origin, one makes it
up. But first, one should look up the word in a good dictionary
to find its first use in print with that meaning, which will rule
out that S.O.B., the Union General named Hooker.
GFH
John Dean
But, as I have pointed out, the earliest cite does not rule out that SOB,
the US Colonel named Hooker
--
John 'He may be an insubordinate SOB but he's *our* SOB' Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Professor Redwine
"Firky" <myn...@pyramidsong.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:MPG.18cafea7f...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:58:53 -0500 MC thought for a bit then
wrote this in
> alt.english.usage:
>
> I`m from Northumberland, England.
I remember asking my grandmother why she called the furniture in
the kitchen the same thing as what my dad had on his face. She
replied that it was easy enough to tell the difference in
context, as things were more likely to get lost in Dad's whiskers
than in the kitchen cupboard.
--
Redwine
Germany
marian...@btinternet.com
Anton Shepelev
>>When I was growing up in Birmingham, England we
>>it in print these days on either side of the pond.
>>
>>I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a
>>family coinage or was it a regionalism?
>
>boards.
Both terms are distortions by the ignorant:
Sideburns for Burnsides. A form of whiskers named
from a noted general of the civil war, Ambrose E.
Burnside. It seems to be thought that the word
"side" has something to do with it, and that as
an adjective it should come first, according to
our idiom.
(Ambrose Bierce in "Write it Right")
--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]
Dan S. MacAbre
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I met "sideburns" as an American equivalent.
http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/01/why-do-we-call-whiskers-side-burns/
What is the origin of the term ‘sideburns’?
An American general of the nineteenth century, by the name of
Ambrose E. Burnside, was immediately recognizable from his mutton
chop whiskers and moustache, combined with (unusually) a
clean-shaven chin. Thanks to his trend-setting, and from the 1870s
onwards, people were calling this style a Burnside. The whims of
fashion meant that the moustache was soon dispensed with as part of
the Burnside ‘look’, and the term came instead to denote the strips
of hair down the side of a man’s face and in front of his ears.
Celebrity and fashion are equally fickle, however, and before long
the general’s name became rather opaque to the new fashionistas of
the day. The ‘side’ element at least was obvious, but where did the
‘Burn’ come in? The first change made was to reverse the two parts
of the term, so that Burnside became, in the 1880s, ‘sideburns’. But
this still left ‘burns’ a puzzle, and the more familiar sideboards
were substituted as an alternative (in which ‘board’ simply means
edge or border).
A beard, by the way, is related to the Latin word barba, hence the
word ‘barber’ for a hair-cutter. And whisker comes from the idea of
‘whisking’ or touching something very lightly, for a whisk (or
‘whisker’) in the fifteenth century could be a bunch of feathers
used as a brush: the touch of that would probably feel very much
like whiskers on your skin.
An extract from What Made the Crocodile Cry? by Susie Dent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susie_Dent
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Whiskers
wrote:
up with too - in far SW England.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
simonh...@gmail.com
Rabby
> When I was growing up in Birmingham, England we called the facial hair
> in front of the ears "sideboards" not "sideburns" but I never hear it or
> see it in print these days on either side of the pond.
>
> I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a family coinage or was
> it a regionalism?
Whiskers
I wonder if 'sideboards' began life as 'sidebeards'? I think mine did -
I continued to shave my chin for a few years before going Full Whisker,
and I was still trimming the cheek hairline long after that (with a
'cut-throat' razor).
Bill McCray
seeing that they got their name from a General Burnside, who had them.
Bill in Kentucky
Peter Young
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On 2017-06-28, Rabby <rabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 26, 2003 at 1:58:53 PM UTC, MC wrote:
>>> When I was growing up in Birmingham, England we called the facial
>>> hair in front of the ears "sideboards" not "sideburns" but I never
>>> hear it or see it in print these days on either side of the pond.
>>>
>>> I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a family coinage or
>>> was it a regionalism?
>>
>> I grew up in Gloucestershire in the 1950s and we always called them
>> 'sideboards', but my children are calling them 'sideburns'....so I
>> just tried to see whether both are correct or not and found your post
>> from 2003!
>
> We said 'sideboards' in Cornwall and south Devon in the '50s too.
Newton Abbot and Totnes, but born in Ashburton))
> I wonder if 'sideboards' began life as 'sidebeards'? I think mine did -
> I continued to shave my chin for a few years before going Full Whisker,
> and I was still trimming the cheek hairline long after that (with a
> 'cut-throat' razor).
--
Whiskers
> On 2017-06-28 13:11:10 +0200, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> said:
>
>> On 2017-06-28, Rabby <rabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 26, 2003 at 1:58:53 PM UTC, MC wrote:
>>>> When I was growing up in Birmingham, England we called the facial
>>>> hair in front of the ears "sideboards" not "sideburns" but I never
>>>> hear it or see it in print these days on either side of the pond.
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious, does anyone else say this? Was it a family coinage or
>>>> was it a regionalism?
>>>
>>> I grew up in Gloucestershire in the 1950s and we always called them
>>> 'sideboards', but my children are calling them 'sideburns'....so I
>>> just tried to see whether both are correct or not and found your post
>>> from 2003!
>>
>> We said 'sideboards' in Cornwall and south Devon in the '50s too.
>
> Ditto for me: also South Devon (where in South Devon? (For me it's
> Newton Abbot and Totnes, but born in Ashburton))
>> I wonder if 'sideboards' began life as 'sidebeards'? I think mine did -
>> I continued to shave my chin for a few years before going Full Whisker,
>> and I was still trimming the cheek hairline long after that (with a
>> 'cut-throat' razor).
>
>
--
jacquicra...@gmail.com
Peter Young
> I grew up in the Westcountry and I always knew them as sideboards until I
> was in my teens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideburns
neil....@gmail.com
Deboards.