Correct english adress syntax in letters/emails
Bernhard Aggeler
I hope to be on the right place here. I am originally not English-speaking
but German (Switzerland).
Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly adress business people in
an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal. Same is for
using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this may be unpolite?
Any help?
Bernhard Aggeler
Maria Conlon
Bernhard Aggeler wrote in message
>Hi,
Hi to you, too.
>I hope to be on the right place here. I am originally not
English-speaking
>but German (Switzerland).
>
>Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly adress business
people in
>an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
I am sure you will get several responses, Bernhard, from people more
knowledgeable about this than I am. But I think it's safe for me to say
that it depends on whether you are sending an email or a letter. The two
often (though not always) follow different sets of rules, at least in
the US.
It also depends on how well you know the person you are writing to. If
it's someone you've met and have a "first-name" relationship with, it is
not necessarily wrong to start an email (or a letter, after the inside
address) with:
"Karsten -- [1]
This is to let you know blah blah blah..."
If you're not acquainted on a first-name basis, then Dear Mr./Mrs./Ms.
Lastname would be best in a letter. I'm not sure about an email.
[1] In an email, I would feel uncomfortable starting off with "Dear
Karsten." I prefer just "Karsten --" with a dash, not a comma.
Frequently, I do not use a salutation at all if the email is addressed
directly to the person and not to a company or group of people.
>AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal. Same is
for
>using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this may be unpolite?
See above. But you say that "Dear" would be too personal; in the US,
that is not true for letters. "Dear Mr. Lastname" (or even "Dear
Karsten" if you know the person well) would be considered quite correct
and business-like.
>Any help?
>
>Bernhard Aggeler
As I said, you'll probably get more responses, bringing more help.
Please keep in mind, though, that your own company's customs will be the
final word -- unless you're in a position to change the rules. ;-)
Good luck!
Maria (Tootsie)
Aaron Davies
AFAIK traditional etiqutte, if you know the name of the person to whom
you are writing is, to use "Dear Mr. Smith:" for the salutation. I don't
think "dear" is considered too personal, but if you do, I think "To Mr.
Smith:" is also acceptable. Other possibilities, if you don't know the
name, include "Dear sir or madam:" and "To whom it may concern:". The
one absolutely vital thing, for reasons I've never understood, is to use
a colon, not a comma, to end the salutation.
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ______ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
Aaron Davies
Oops, forgot the email bit. As Tootsie said, if you know the person
well, "John--" will do, otherwise, don't use a salutation at all. Also,
"signing" an email generall just consists of "--Bernhard Aggeler" or
--
Bernhard Aggeler
unless you have a preset sig block, as I do.
Richard Fontana
On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Bernhard Aggeler wrote:
> Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly adress business people in
> an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
>
> AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal. Same is for
> using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this may be unpolite?
>
> Any help?
First of all, use of "Dear" + name is the ordinary way to address a
traditional business letter in English, and it does not imply
personal-ness at all -- if anything, it suggests some
impersonal-ness. But you're right about "Dear" being inappropriate in
e-mail communications. Depending on who you're communicating with,
beginning it with
Mr. Amann,
or
Karsten,
in the case of a communication to a Mr. Karsten Amann would be
appropriate.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Aaron Davies wrote:
[...]
Re: Dear Mr. Smith:
> The one absolutely vital thing, for reasons I've never understood, is
> to use a colon, not a comma, to end the salutation.
A colon indicates formality, a comma informality (even with last name).
A semicolon, common in the USA [ Dear Mr. Smith; ], indicates ignorance.
Then there's the UK salutation: Dear Mr Smith:-
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
M A L E D I C T A
P.O. Box 14123
Santa Rosa, CA 95402, USA
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> First of all, use of "Dear" + name is the ordinary way to address
> a traditional business letter in English, and it does not imply
> personal-ness
Ahem, "informality."
> at all -- if anything, it suggests some impersonal-ness.
Ahem, "formality."
> But you're right about "Dear" being inappropriate in e-mail
> communications. Depending on who
Ahem, "whom."
> you're communicating with, beginning it with [...]
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
meirm...@erols.com
aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com (Aaron Davies) posted:
So the recipient will know if he is getting a personal letter or not.
In the US, email can either be conversational or more formal.
Conversational mail, like conversations themselves, or post-it notes
left on someone's door or computer screen, would likely start just
with a first name.
More formal mail would be likely to be sent to someone with whom one
is not in daily or at least frequent communication, perhaps by phone
or in person. It would start off Dear Rick, or Dear Mr. Jones: ,
depending on the sender's relationship to the recipient.
More formal is divided into the two categories in the line above:
1) a) personal mail for friends, or b) members of most recreational
clubs, for example, IF the sender of the mail or email is also a
member of the same or a similar club. In that case most members would
be addressed by their first names in the US. Exceptions would be
fraternities and lodges, such as Masonic lodges, with established
titles between members, like Brother Jones, but if you were a member
of one of those, you would know it. There are probably more
categories.
2) Email that would have been formal in regular mail, remains
formal. Including: Cover letters for job applications. Letters
soliciting something for the sender's benefit, to people who are not
friends. Letters to anyone you would not call by his first name.
"To Mr. Smith: " would seem quite unusual in the US, but once they
noticed you're not from the US, it would just seem quaint or foreign.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
Charles Riggs
"Dear" is fine in a business letter. If you know the person's name,
write "Dear Richard Fontana" or "Dear Mr Fontana". If the person's
name in unknown to you, then write "Dear Sir or Madam".
Charles Riggs
Steve MacGregor
> I hope to be on the right place here. I am originally not
> English-speaking but German (Switzerland).
>
> Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly address business
> people in an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
>
> AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal.
> Same is for using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this
> may be unpolite?
Dear Mr Aggeler:
This is the correct business form, with a colon after the person's
name. We do use the word "dear", the equivalent of German "Lieber".
Strangely enough, putting the word "My" before "dear" makes the
salutation extremely formal, and this is an obsolete form; we're never
quite =this= formal any more.
--
Whom are you going to call? GRAMMAR BUSTERS!
Dave Fawthrop
"Bernhard Aggeler" <Bernhard...@AAAConsulting.com> wrote in message
news:9mcbbq$fd7$1...@ruby.nextra.ch...
You are translating the German word ?korrect? into the English/American word
"correct".
This is a "false friend" because the German meaning of ?korrect? is totally
alien to the English Language. There is no such concept as ?korrekt?
There is no such book as Der Grosse Duden in English.
English/American lexicographers, describe the languages as they find it, and
*can not* lay down rules.
All the other replies to this thread should be read as,
This is my opinion
This is a good idea
Most American recipients would not object to this. The English, Indians,
Australians, South Africans will have different conventions, so you could
make a mistake here.
--
Dave Fawthrop <hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> <http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk>
Computer Hyphenation Ltd, Hyphen House, 8 Cooper Grove, Halifax HX3 7RF, UK,
Tel/F/A +44(0)1274 691092. M: +44(0)7720455248, 16 years of Word Splitting
Hyphenologist is sold as C source code and splits 50 languages.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> "Bernhard Aggeler" <Bernhard...@AAAConsulting.com> wrote:
> > English-speaking but German (Switzerland).
> >
> > Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly address business
> > people in an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
> >
> > AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal.
> > Same is for using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this
> > may be unpolite?
> Dear Mr Aggeler:
>
> This is the correct business form, with a colon after the person's
> name. We do use the word "dear", the equivalent of German "Lieber".
It's a bit more complicated than that. The "dear" in "Dear Mr. X" means
"Lieber" (lit., dear) OR "Sehr geehrter" (lit., very honored). The
first is somewhat informal, the second is formal and standard in
business. Thus:
Dear Mr. Smith: is formal = Sehr geehrter Herr Schmied!
Dear Mr. Smith, is less formal = Lieber Herr Schmied! (OR: Schmied, )
In German, the exclamation point in a salutation does not indicate an
exclamation but simply formality. Modern, young, hip Germans use the
exclamation point less frequently than the comma, except in strictly
formal situations.
While not as complicated as Japanese honorifics and degrees of respect,
in German there's a number of ways to address someone, here ranged from
the least to the most formal. I'm addressed in letters and e-mails from
German-speaking countries as follows:
Lieber Reinhold, (OR: Reinhold!) + familiar "du"
Lieber Reinhold, (OR: Reinhold!) + formal "Sie"
Lieber Herr Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
Lieber Herr Dr. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
Lieber Herr Prof. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
Lieber Herr Prof. Dr. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
Sehr geehrter Herr Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
Sehr geehrter Herr Dr. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Dr. Aman, + formal "Sie"
Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Dr. Aman! + formal "Sie"
Sehr geehrter Herr Professor Dr. Aman! + formal "Sie"
Most addresses with "!" are somewhat more formal than with "," (except
in the first example):
"Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Dr. Aman," is not quite as formal as:
"Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Dr. Aman!" Spelling out "Prof." is the most
formal: "Sehr geehrter Herr Professor Dr. Aman!" "Dr." is rarely
spelled out.
"Herr Dr. Aman" and "Herr Prof. Aman" are equally formal, but when both
titles are used, "Prof." always precedes "Dr.": "Prof. Dr. X"; but
never: "Dr. Prof. X."
Many times, Germans, Austrians and Swiss will also translate "Herr"
(Mr.) and address me (on the envelope and in the letter) as "Mr. Dr.
Aman" (= Herr Dr. Aman) or "Dear Mr. Prof. Aman" (= Lieber Herr Prof.
Aman) and even "Dear Mr. Prof. Dr. Aman" (= Lieber Herr Prof. Dr. Aman).
I've also seen similar superfluous double titles from Dutch
corresponents who translate word-for-word their Dutch titles into
English.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Anne Burgess
> AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal. Same is
for
> using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this may be unpolite?
> Any help?
> Bernhard Aggeler
Dear Bernhard
I am a native speaker of UK English, and I have spent much of my career
writing letters, both formal and informal.
I would never dream of addressing any letter to anyone other than by
starting
"Dear ..... ,"
What I put in place of the "....." would depend on how well I know the
recipient.
I have seen various suggestions about the use and/or misuse of commas,
colons and semicolons. All these are news to me. I would only ever use a
comma.
Anne
Johannes H Andersen
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
>
> "Bernhard Aggeler" <Bernhard...@AAAConsulting.com> wrote in message
> news:9mcbbq$fd7$1...@ruby.nextra.ch...
> : Hi,
> :
> : I hope to be on the right place here. I am originally not English-speaking
> : but German (Switzerland).
> :
> : Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly adress business people
> in
> : an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
> :
> : AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal. Same is
> for
> : using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this may be unpolite?
>
> You are translating the German word ?korrect? into the English/American word
> "correct".
> This is a "false friend" because the German meaning of ?korrect? is totally
> alien to the English Language. There is no such concept as ?korrekt?
> There is no such book as Der Grosse Duden in English.
> English/American lexicographers, describe the languages as they find it, and
> *can not* lay down rules.
>
Yes, English/American lexicographers, describe the languages as they find it.
But find it where? Of course among native english speaking people. Foreigners
are not allowed the same leeway for expressive inventiveness. Since I came to
the UK from Denmark, I bought a number of little guide books, everyone titled: "Correct English" or
similar. Typically, such books give examples of "correct"
and "incorrect" usage. BTW the books are of course written by English scholars.
You seem to imply that our German friend is somehow obsessed with being
"korrect", as a national trait?
Johannes
Fabian
"Bernhard Aggeler" hu kiteb
This is all in my humble opinion.
Dear Mr B Aggeler, <- traditional formal business style
Dear Bernhard, <- traditional informal style. This is suitable for
letters between friends, not for business letters.
Dear [Sir|Sirs], <- if the recipients name is unknown.
Dear Executive Producer, <- job title is an alternative address form if
the recipient's name is unknown.
To: Mr B Aggeler <- alternative business style
To: Mr B Aggeler, Mr J Public <- business letter with multiple
recipients
Cc: Mr J Doe, Ms G Next-Door <- people who will receive the letter but
aren't directly adressed. Use only with in conjunction with 'To:'.
My reasoning:
I've never seen any UK style manuals dictate a colon, except in the
'To:' form.
Using someone's full personal name in a business letter smells too much
of the used car saleman who is suddenly your best friend from school.
It's too chummy.
Titles: Mrs/Miss if this is known. If this is unknown, or the woman has
already used Ms, use Ms as the title. Appropriate exceptions should be
made for people with noble/professional titles. Men are always Mr.
Initials may have dots after them. This is a style issue, and current UK
usage is to leave them out where it will not cause confusion.
And the closing is
Yours sincerely,
if the name is known,
Yours faithfully,
if the recipient's name is unknown.
Again, if the recipient holds certain high positions (ambassador, duke,
president, etc), there are certain closings that should be used instead.
--
--
Fabian
ghajn f'wicc ikhal ra ghajn f'wicc ahdar
dak l-ghajn jisbah dan l-ghajn
qal l-ghajn l-ewwel
imma baxx, mhux gholi
Andrew McLaren
> Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly adress business people
in
> an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
>
> AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal. Same is
for
> using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this may be unpolite?
Hi Bernhard,
I'll second the very sensible advice of Anne Burgess.
In the English language, it is *never* wrong to begin a letter or an email
with "Dear xxx". You can choose to use less formal salutations if you wish,
but no-one would be offended by being addressed "Dear Mr Smith,".
If you know the name of the person you to whom you are writing, finish the
letter or email by signing "Yours Sincerely". If you do not know the name of
the person, or you are being very business-like formal, you can sign Yours
Faithfully".
Here in Australia, we favour informality and friendliness over "correct
form", so a more relaxed standard is generally used. It's not at all
improper to write to or email someone you've never met with the salutation
"Hi Jim," and close with "Regards" or "Cheers". And everywhere, email seems
to attract a more relaxed style of language than written letters.
Cheers ;-)
Andrew
Molly
Anne Burgess (Anne Burgess <Anne.B...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com>) wrote
>I am a native speaker of UK English, and I have spent much of my career
>writing letters, both formal and informal.
>
>I would never dream of addressing any letter to anyone other than by
>starting
>
>"Dear ..... ,"
>
>What I put in place of the "....." would depend on how well I know the
>recipient.
There are also traditions (rules?) about how to end a letter, depending
on the salutation.
If you start "Dear Sir" or "Dear Madam", you end up with "Yours
faithfully".
If you start "Dear Mrs Mockford" you end up with "Yours sincerely".
If you start "Dear Molly", you end up with "Yours", or something more
informal such as "Love", depending on the closeness of the relationship.
"Yours truly" has fallen out of use these days.
With e-mails, I would consider that if informal communications no
salutation is necessary, nor anything at the end apart from your usual
signature file. If it is a formal e-mail, then "Dear ..." as above
applies, but for some reason the "Yours ..." tends to be omitted, and
replaced by something like "I look forward to hearing from you".
--
Molly Mockford (posting from uk.culture.language.english)
(remove -nospam to email me)
http://www.pagination.co.uk
Richard Fontana
On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Fabian wrote:
> This is all in my humble opinion.
>
> Dear Mr B Aggeler, <- traditional formal business style
>
> Dear Bernhard, <- traditional informal style. This is suitable for
> letters between friends, not for business letters.
>
> Dear [Sir|Sirs], <- if the recipients name is unknown.
>
> Dear Executive Producer, <- job title is an alternative address form if
> the recipient's name is unknown.
>
> To: Mr B Aggeler <- alternative business style
>
> To: Mr B Aggeler, Mr J Public <- business letter with multiple
> recipients
>
> Cc: Mr J Doe, Ms G Next-Door <- people who will receive the letter but
> aren't directly adressed. Use only with in conjunction with 'To:'.
>
> My reasoning:
>
> I've never seen any UK style manuals dictate a colon, except in the
> 'To:' form.
Just a note on this. In traditional US formal and business letters, a
colon must be used, while a comma is traditional in personal or informal
non-business letters.
[...]
> And the closing is
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> if the name is known,
>
> Yours faithfully,
>
> if the recipient's name is unknown.
I believe this distinction was never observed in the US, at least in the
post-World War I era.
Richard Fontana
This "Dear Richard Fontana" style seems to be a modern barbarism to me,
the result of automatically generated commercial mail influence. I think
"Dear Richard" or "Dear Mr. Fontana" are the only ones that would have
been traditionally correct, but someone with access to old style manuals
should feel free to correct me on that one.
Tony Cooper
It seems to me that the original poster of this thread was asking
exclusively about e-mail. His original question was "Can anybody
help me in telling me how I correctly adress business people in an
email/letter?"
The slash indicates to me that he is considering e-mail to be a
letter, and not that he is asking about both forms of communication.
Therefore, all the references to "Dear....", would be moot. In a
personal e-mail, the salutation is more likely something like "How ya
doin', Joe?" or simply "Joe...". In a business e-mail - addressed to
the specific e-mail of a person - I don't see that any salutation is
required. Just jump to the question/statement. If anything, I would
use "Mr. Smith:" as an opening as less blunt than jumping into the
question/statement, but appropriately terse for e-mail.
The purpose of e-mail in business is (or should be) rapid and less
formal communication between two parties on a specific subject. Any
polite dancing involved in a new business relationship is better done
by a real letter.
To introduce a new salutation, in business e-mail to a company where I
am not writing an individual's personal e-mail address - or a
situation where I don't know the individual's name - I will often use
"Attention: Accounts Payable" or "Attention: Customer Service" as a
first line.
The slide of discussion to proper salutations in letter correspondence
is interesting, but probably not what the questioner had in mind.
Y'all were kind not to get into the "anybody" sub-discussion.
Kindness to strangers, and all.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
"Richard Fontana" <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.010827...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu...
> [no maus or ucle]
>
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Charles Riggs wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 04:29:52 +0200, "Bernhard Aggeler"
> > <Bernhard...@AAAConsulting.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Hi,
> > >
> > >I hope to be on the right place here. I am originally not
English-speaking
> > >but German (Switzerland).
> > >
Robert Lieblich
>
> It seems to me that the original poster of this thread was asking
> exclusively about e-mail. His original question was "Can anybody
> help me in telling me how I correctly adress business people in an
> email/letter?"
>
> The slash indicates to me that he is considering e-mail to be a
> letter, and not that he is asking about both forms of communication.
But it indicated otherwise to many of us, and I think our inference
was as legitimate as yours, proving once again what a dangerous
instrument the virgule/slash/stroke actually is. I do not mean to
say that you have misunderstood the original poster. Rather, he
simply wasn't clear about what he meant.
Bob Cunningham
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> said:
[...]
>This "Dear Richard Fontana" style seems to be a modern barbarism to me,
>the result of automatically generated commercial mail influence.
So mindlessly automatic that it once produced a letter with the
salutation "Dear Doctor Los Angeles Times".
Padraig Breathnach
>But it indicated otherwise to many of us, and I think our inference
>was as legitimate as yours, proving once again what a dangerous
>instrument the virgule/slash/stroke actually is. I do not mean to
>say that you have misunderstood the original poster. Rather, he
>simply wasn't clear about what he meant.
I had not been aware that the word "virgule" existed in English.
ObAUF: what's with the heading on this post? What's "abas"? When did
la virgule have the sex-change?
PB
Robert Lieblich
ou'll find "virgule" in the M-W and AHD online dictionaries. Both
trace it to Latin "virgula." Neither has "abas," however.
Perhaps I'll essay a bit less macaroni next time. At its best my
French is tres feeble.
Rodolphe Audette
> ObAUF: what's with the heading on this post? What's "abas"? When did
> la virgule have the sex-change?
It seems to me "Abas le virgule" should be: "À bas la virgule", meaning:
"Down with the comma"
Rodolphe Audette
Tony Cooper
> But it indicated otherwise to many of us, and I think our inference
> was as legitimate as yours,
Certainly. I was just explaining how I viewed it. YMMV.
Brian J Goggin
>This "Dear Richard Fontana" style seems to be a modern barbarism to me,
>the result of automatically generated commercial mail influence.
Some Quakers (members of the Religious Society of Friends) use that
style: they avoid the use of such terms as "Mr".
bjg
Bob Cunningham
>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
>Rodolphe Audette
But he didn't mean "comma".
He would have done better to say "la barre oblique", according to the
_Oxford-Hachette French Dictionary_, which gives no other definition
for "virgule" than "comma", except in "Math.", where it's a "decimal
point".
Padraig Breathnach
He might not have meant comma, but in French "virgule" means "comma".
In English, according to NSOED, it also means "la barre oblique".
Bob was right about being macaronic.
PB
Alan Jones
"Aaron Davies" <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com> wrote in message
news:1eyrs5g.130cgjc1xfs4lxN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com...
> Bernhard Aggeler <Bernhard...@AAAConsulting.com> wrote:
> >
> > Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly adress business
people in
> > an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
> AFAIK traditional etiqutte, if you know the name of the person to whom
> you are writing is, to use "Dear Mr. Smith:" for the salutation. I
don't
> think "dear" is considered too personal, but if you do, I think "To
Mr.
> Smith:" is also acceptable. Other possibilities, if you don't know the
> name, include "Dear sir or madam:" and "To whom it may concern:". The
> one absolutely vital thing, for reasons I've never understood, is to
use
> a colon, not a comma, to end the salutation.
In UK, the colon is not used in this way. The salutation is followed by
a comma, or more probably no mark of punctuation at all. Standard
practice is to omit purely conventional punctuation of this kind (e.g.
in dates, addresses, abbreviations...) not serving a grammatical or
practical purpose.
"Dear Sir or Madam" (NB capital letters) is not regarded as proper
British etiquette. One should take pains to discover the sex of the
person concerned, and if this is not practicable then something like
"Dear Personnel Manager" should be used. "To whom it may concern" is not
a salutation in the usual sense, but appears (usually underlined) at top
left of an "open" testimonial or reference for which a salution is
unsuitable.
"Dear Bernhard Aggeler" is sometimes seen, either for a stranger's name
from which sex cannot be deduced or in some professions, especially the
arts.
The graded chart of German salutations given by Dr Aman has no British
equivalent at the most honorific end. Traditional formal salutations are
listed in some usage manuals, but rarely used. "Dear Professor Aman" or
"Dear Dr Aman" serve for formal and neutral letters, and of course for
informal letters to someone whom one doesn't know well.
Alan Jones
Bob Cunningham
said:
>Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
>>>Rodolphe Audette
In what essential way does that differ from what I said?
Except that I wouldn't have said that _NSOED_ says "virgule" means "la
Barre oblique", because it isn't strictly true. It is true that
_NSOED_ says "virgule" means something that in French is called "la
barre oblique".
>Bob was right about being macaronic.
If by "Bob" you mean me, I find no definition of "macaronic" that fits
anything I said.
Padraig Breathnach
>On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:15:36 GMT, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie>
>said:
>
>>Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>>On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:48:19 GMT, Rodolphe Audette
>>><rodolphe...@sit.ulaval.ca> said:
>
>>>>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
>
>>>>> ObAUF: what's with the heading on this post? What's "abas"? When did
>>>>> la virgule have the sex-change?
>
>>>>It seems to me "Abas le virgule" should be: "À bas la virgule", meaning:
>>>>"Down with the comma"
>
>>>>Rodolphe Audette
>
>>>But he didn't mean "comma".
>
>>>He would have done better to say "la barre oblique", according to the
>>>_Oxford-Hachette French Dictionary_, which gives no other definition
>>>for "virgule" than "comma", except in "Math.", where it's a "decimal
>>>point".
>
>>He might not have meant comma, but in French "virgule" means "comma".
>>In English, according to NSOED, it also means "la barre oblique".
>
>In what essential way does that differ from what I said?
>
Have you rolled up your sleeves?
Many of us (myself included until this afternoon) would not have known
that "virgule" in English can mean either the "slash" character or
comma. For those without ready recourse to dictionaries, I was
offering a little clarification.
>Except that I wouldn't have said that _NSOED_ says "virgule" means "la
>Barre oblique", because it isn't strictly true. It is true that
>_NSOED_ says "virgule" means something that in French is called "la
>barre oblique".
>
That's being picky. My style, good or bad, is my own choice. I was
under the impression that we were chatting in an easy-going manner.
>>Bob was right about being macaronic.
>
>If by "Bob" you mean me, I find no definition of "macaronic" that fits
>anything I said.
I meant to refer to Robert Lieblich, who did refer to macaroni.
PB
Guy Morgan
<chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> writes
> If the person's
>name in unknown to you, then write "Dear Sir or Madam".
>
>Charles Riggs
Ouch! Surely not.
I was taught that the use of Dear Sir or Madam was impolite to the point
of being offensive. One was expected to find out the sex of the person
being addressed.
BTW AFAIK the salutation Dear is considered appropriate in all
circumstances these days. Salutations such as Respected Sir are no
longer in use.
Guy
--
Guy Morgan
*First Light Services*
Video Projects Lighting Design Technical Co-ordination Consultancy
g...@first-light-services.co.uk http://www.first-light-services.co.uk
Molly
net>, Alan Jones (Alan Jones <a...@blueyonder.co.uk>) wrote
>In UK, the colon is not used in this way. The salutation is followed by
>a comma, or more probably no mark of punctuation at all. Standard
>practice is to omit purely conventional punctuation of this kind (e.g.
>in dates, addresses, abbreviations...) not serving a grammatical or
>practical purpose.
>
(snip)
>The graded chart of German salutations given by Dr Aman has no British
>equivalent at the most honorific end. Traditional formal salutations are
>listed in some usage manuals, but rarely used. "Dear Professor Aman" or
>"Dear Dr Aman" serve for formal and neutral letters, and of course for
>informal letters to someone whom one doesn't know well.
Which reminds me that in English there is a fairly clear distinction
between, say, "Dear Professor" or "Dear Doctor", and "Dear Personnel
Manager". The first two have always been acceptable, whereas the latter
is only now gaining acceptance, concomitant with the demise of "Dear
Sir" [1] as a default (which assumed that anyone in a senior post was
male!). The difference, as far as I can tell, is that the first two
titles can also be used in direct speech, and frequently are. However,
this is only the case with academic titles, not with job titles.
I won't get into the issue of how to address dukes, baronets and
bishops!
[1] When writing to a firm, e.g. a firm of solicitors, it is still
perfectly acceptable to start "Dear Sirs", even if some or all of the
partners are female. What is more, the firm itself is addressed on the
envelope as "Messrs [2] Sue, Grabbit and Runne" or whatever. Sexual
equality still has a long way to go when it comes to envelopes - I have
never seen a female equivalent to Messrs suggested, let alone used.
[2] From Messieurs. Tricky language, English.
--
Molly Mockford, posting in uk.culture.language.english
Skitt
"Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3B8A5935...@Verizon.net...
Looking at the subject line, where the poster reversed the two words and
wrote "Correct english address syntax in letters/emails", it seems clear to
me that the poster drew a clear distinction between the two modes of
communication and wanted information about both.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
Skitt
"Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <am...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:3B8A0D...@sonic.net...
>
> While not as complicated as Japanese honorifics and degrees of respect,
> in German there's a number of ways to address someone, here ranged from
> the least to the most formal. I'm addressed in letters and e-mails from
> German-speaking countries as follows:
>
> Lieber Reinhold, (OR: Reinhold!) + familiar "du"
[rest snipped]
Rey, did you really get letters addressing you with "du" instead of "Du"?
On the Web, looking at German sites, I see that the capital letter version
predominates, but there are quite a few lower case instances. I remember
being taught only the capital letter version.
I know that the newsgroup posts form Latvia (in Latvian) have started to use
the lower case letter for the equivalent "tu", and that change seems to have
taken place during the Soviet years. I believe that the Latvian "Jūs" (for
"Sie") may be following suit, but I'm not sure.
Robert Lieblich
[ . . . ]
> I meant to refer to Robert Lieblich, who did refer to macaroni.
I am entirely to blame for any confusion of identities or languages
occurring on this thread, and I both apologize and repent. I have
retained the subject line as I wrote it, which conveys enough of the
confusion that I have felt free to delete the remainder.
Now, if you'll all excuse me, I'm off to stick a feather in my hat.
--
Bob Lieblich
Bob Cunningham
said:
>Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:15:36 GMT, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie>
>>said:
>>>Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:48:19 GMT, Rodolphe Audette
>>>><rodolphe...@sit.ulaval.ca> said:
>>>>>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
>>>>>> ObAUF: what's with the heading on this post? What's "abas"? When did
>>>>>> la virgule have the sex-change?
>>>>>It seems to me "Abas le virgule" should be: "À bas la virgule", meaning:
>>>>>"Down with the comma"
>>>>>Rodolphe Audette
>>>>But he didn't mean "comma".
>>>>He would have done better to say "la barre oblique", according to the
>>>>_Oxford-Hachette French Dictionary_, which gives no other definition
>>>>for "virgule" than "comma", except in "Math.", where it's a "decimal
>>>>point".
>>>He might not have meant comma, but in French "virgule" means "comma".
>>>In English, according to NSOED, it also means "la barre oblique".
When I read that, it didn't occur to me that you might mean that
"virgule" in English *means* "comma" as well as "slash". It doesn't.
(See below.)
>>In what essential way does that differ from what I said?
>Have you rolled up your sleeves?
>Many of us (myself included until this afternoon) would not have known
>that "virgule" in English can mean either the "slash" character or
>comma.
I don't believe it can. I think you misread _The New Shorter Oxford_.
What it says in effect is that the virgule is a slash and the slash is
*equivalent* to a comma. That is, the virgule can function like a
comma, but it's still a virgule, not a comma.
No one would look at a comma and say, "Hey! There's a virgule!". They
might say, "That virgule has the same significance in the sentence
that a comma would have, but it's not a comma; it's a virgule."
The _Online Oxford English Dictionary_ may make the point a little
more clearly; then again, maybe not. Anyway, it says:
(frequently with the same value as the modern comma).
In my dialect, the pronunciation of the digraph in "maid" has the same
value as the one in "eight". That doesn't mean that "ai" *is* "ei".
When commas are used to set off a parenthetical remark, they're
equivalent to parentheses, they have the value of parentheses, but
they're still commas, not parentheses.
>For those without ready recourse to dictionaries, I was
>offering a little clarification.
That was an admirable gesture. It's too bad you apparently based it
upon faulty reading of your dictionary.
Polar
<mo...@mockfords-nospam.clara.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>
>I won't get into the issue of how to address dukes, baronets and
>bishops!
[...]
No prob.
"Yo, bro' "
--
Polar
email only
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <am...@sonic.net> wrote in message
> news:3B8A0D...@sonic.net...
>
> >
> > While not as complicated as Japanese honorifics and degrees of respect,
> > in German there's a number of ways to address someone, here ranged from
> > the least to the most formal. I'm addressed in letters and e-mails from
> > German-speaking countries as follows:
> >
> > Lieber Reinhold, (OR: Reinhold!) + familiar "du"
>
> [rest snipped]
>
> Rey, did you really get letters addressing you with "du" instead of
> "Du"? On the Web, looking at German sites, I see that the capital
> letter version predominates, but there are quite a few lower case
> instances. I remember being taught only the capital letter version.
>
traditional upper-case "Du". Why don't ask me. What was changed and what
wasn't changed seems quite arbitrary. The reform was supposed to make
spelling and punctuation easier, but most people seem totally confused
about the changes and people probably make even more spelling and
punctuation errors now than before.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
P.S. This is probably OT in all the newsgroups listed.
Odysseus
>
> Many of us (myself included until this afternoon) would not have known
> that "virgule" in English can mean either the "slash" character or
> comma. For those without ready recourse to dictionaries, I was
> offering a little clarification.
>
used with this meaning.
"Virgule" in typography can be used 'loosely' with reference to the
ordinary "slash" or "stroke", but technically it signifies the shallow
slash with negative side-bearings used to separate the numerator of a
fraction from the denominator (called "fraction" in the PostScript
default encoding). On a Mac it's "/", option-! (option-shift-1), clearly
distinguishable from the slash, "/", in most fonts. It doesn't appear to
be available in the standard Windows encoding.
--Odysseus
Odysseus
>
>
> }I have seen various suggestions about the use and/or misuse of commas,
> }colons and semicolons. All these are news to me. I would only ever use a
> }comma.
>
> Agreed I have just checked my legal files with letters from solicitors,
> barristers, judges, MPs and many others; a few do not have a comma, the rest
> have noting but a comma.
>
> You can stuff the ; : :- where they belong.
>
When I went to school (Canadian grade 5, in 1970) I was taught to open a
personal letter with "Dear X," but a business letter with:
"(addressee's name, if known)
(organization)
(address)
Dear Sir(s):"
Note that the addressee of a business letter, if known, was to be
identified in the 'address block', but not in the 'salutation'. I
distinctly recall being told that using a colon instead of a comma was
mandatory for such formal correspondence.
--Odysseus
Tony Cooper
> Looking at the subject line, where the poster reversed the two words
and
> wrote "Correct english address syntax in letters/emails", it seems
clear to
> me that the poster drew a clear distinction between the two modes of
> communication and wanted information about both.
The truly ingenious thing about language is the ever-present and
unavoidable ambiguity of usage. It prevents ennui and gives us
purpose.
Mark Brader
> I was taught that the use of Dear Sir or Madam was impolite to the point
> of being offensive. One was expected to find out the sex of the person
> being addressed.
This seems bizarre to me. Either one is expected to find out the
person's *name*, or one isn't. If not, then I think "Dear Sir/Madam"
is fine. (Using "or" instead of a slash is okay too, but seems more
formal than necessary.) "Dear <position>" also works, and I have been
known to use "Dear <organization>" as well.
If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's a woman, and you want
to refer to her by last name, use "Mrs." or "Miss" with it only if you
find out that that's how she prefers to be addressed; the default in
business usage these days is "Ms."
There is a style where you state the person's name and position (business
letters normally include the recipient's address, and it would naturally
go there) and then follow this with "Dear Sir" or "Dear Madam", whichever
is appropriate. But again, this seems excessively formal to me.
All of this is for letters. For email, no salutation is needed.
--
Mark Brader | "If the standard says that [things] depend on the
Toronto | phase of the moon, the programmer should be prepared
m...@vex.net | to look out the window as necessary." -- Chris Torek
My text in this article is in the public domain.
meirm...@erols.com
<sk...@earthlink.net> posted:
>
>"Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:3B8A5935...@Verizon.net...
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >
>> > It seems to me that the original poster of this thread was asking
>> > exclusively about e-mail. His original question was "Can anybody
>> > help me in telling me how I correctly adress business people in an
>> > email/letter?"
>> >
>> > The slash indicates to me that he is considering e-mail to be a
>> > letter, and not that he is asking about both forms of communication.
>>
>> But it indicated otherwise to many of us, and I think our inference
>> was as legitimate as yours, proving once again what a dangerous
>> instrument the virgule/slash/stroke actually is. I do not mean to
>> say that you have misunderstood the original poster. Rather, he
>> simply wasn't clear about what he meant.
>
>Looking at the subject line, where the poster reversed the two words and
>wrote "Correct english address syntax in letters/emails", it seems clear to
>me that the poster drew a clear distinction between the two modes of
>communication and wanted information about both.
I agree. It's an annoying usage of the slash sign, but I do it too.
In addition there may be such a thing as an email-letter, but not
emails-letters or letters-emails. They wouldn't both be plural if he
meant only letters or emails.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
meirm...@erols.com
<exw...@earthlink.net> posted:
Since my mother died, I've been getting mail addressed to, let's say
Sylvia Meir Isaacs Ginsberg, in which my name is the second and
fourth, and my mother's name is the 1st and third (she remarried after
my father died). It's actually more complicated than this, 5 or 6
parts of names interwoven.
meirm...@erols.com
<b...@wordwrights.ie> posted:
That's fine by me, but the rest of us should avoid it. :)
>bjg
meirm...@erols.com
Fawthrop" <hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> posted:
>
>"Bernhard Aggeler" <Bernhard...@AAAConsulting.com> wrote in message
>news:9mcbbq$fd7$1...@ruby.nextra.ch...
>: Hi,
>:
>: I hope to be on the right place here. I am originally not English-speaking
>: but German (Switzerland).
>:
>: Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly adress business people
>in
>: an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
>:
>: AFAIK "Dear ..." would NOT be correct, as this is too personal. Same is
>for
>: using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this may be unpolite?
>
>You are translating the German word ?korrect? into the English/American word
>"correct".
>This is a "false friend" because the German meaning of ?korrect? is totally
>alien to the English Language. There is no such concept as ?korrekt?
>There is no such book as Der Grosse Duden in English.
>English/American lexicographers, describe the languages as they find it, and
>*can not* lay down rules.
>
>All the other replies to this thread should be read as,
>This is my opinion
Should not your own post be read as "This is my opinion"? There may
be doubt and different opinions where the boundaries are, and in some
places there might even be a big middle ground, but there is no doubt
that there is both correct English, including the form for letters and
to some extent email, and incorrect English.
Even descriptivists I think will tell us that if no one else uses it,
and it doesn't follow some prescriptivist standard, it's likely to be
wrong.
>This is a good idea
>Most American recipients would not object to this. The English, Indians,
>Australians, South Africans will have different conventions, so you could
>make a mistake here.
meirm...@erols.com
<odysse...@yahoo.ca> posted:
I the same, except I recall being told to say James Jones..... Dear
Mr. Jones: . Either seems ok to me.
I guess for multiple names I would just say Dear Sirs:.
>--Odysseus
Matthew M. Huntbach
> "Dear" is fine in a business letter. If you know the person's name,
> write "Dear Richard Fontana" or "Dear Mr Fontana". If the person's
> name in unknown to you, then write "Dear Sir or Madam".
I still feel the "Dear <first name><second name>" format to be incorrect,
though one comes across it not infrequently these days. As a university
admissions tutor, I often have to write letters to prospective applicants,
and many of our applicants are not from non-European backgrounds. Sometimes
I am forced to write "Dear <first name> <second name>" because the person
has written to me using their name without any title, and I have no idea
whether they are male or female.
Of course, if the person has a recognisably female first name, one still
has a tricky problem if they haven't given a title. Should they be
addressed as "Mrs" or "Miss"? For students, guessing at "Miss" is fine,
but in other circumstances, if I don't have a title, I do use the modern
compromise "Ms".
I note in the above I have used "they" for "he or she" in the first
paragraph, and for what must be "she" in the second. Funny that - it
seems natural to use "they" as the pronoun for any unknown or unspecified
person, even in situations where they must be of one gender. I am aware
sticklers will still say it is incorrect English.
Matthew Huntbach
Anne Burgess
> distinctly recall being told that using a colon instead of a comma was
> mandatory for such formal correspondence.
> --Odysseus
Well, as I said, that's news to me <g>
Anne
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <am...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > While not as complicated as Japanese honorifics and degrees of respect,
> > in German there's a number of ways to address someone, here ranged from
> > the least to the most formal. I'm addressed in letters and e-mails
> > from German-speaking countries as follows:
> >
> > Lieber Reinhold, (OR: Reinhold!) + familiar "du"
> [rest snipped]
> Rey, did you really get letters addressing you with "du" instead of "Du"?
> On the Web, looking at German sites, I see that the capital letter version
> predominates, but there are quite a few lower case instances. I remember
> being taught only the capital letter version.
[...]
So was I. I get letters using "du" and "Du." The former follows the
highly controversial new German orthography; the latter the
"old-fashioned" way. Several of my friends in Europe and I keep using
"Du" and consider the new lower-case "du" (and "dir," "dich," "dein,"
etc.) impolite, including a 22-year-old Austrian dialectology student at
the University of Salzburg.
So, it's not just us old farts who are clinging to the old orthography.
There are German Web sites listing the new rules and spellings which
will soon become official (look for "Neue Rechtschreibung" and the
like). Currently, during the transition period of about five years,
both forms are acceptable, but teachers in Germany, Austria and
Switzerland are supposed to mark the old forms, so that pupils and
students start using the new orthography. I used "du" above to avoid
confusing learners of German.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Mike Lyle
>
>Skitt wrote:
>
>> "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <am...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Lieber Reinhold, (OR: Reinhold!) + familiar "du"
>
BTW, German-speaking readers please note that the exclamation mark is not used
in standard salutations in English letters. If it were used, it would look like
shouting.
Mike.
Arty Smokes
"Molly" <mo...@mockfords-nospam.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:P$aFahAtk...@clara.net...
> [1] When writing to a firm, e.g. a firm of solicitors, it is still
> perfectly acceptable to start "Dear Sirs", even if some or all of the
> partners are female. What is more, the firm itself is addressed on
the
> envelope as "Messrs [2] Sue, Grabbit and Runne" or whatever. Sexual
> equality still has a long way to go when it comes to envelopes - I
have
> never seen a female equivalent to Messrs suggested, let alone used.
As a revolutionary, I sometimes write to "Whoever opens the mail". It's
honest, to the point, and the recipient of the letter never actually
sees it, as there is always a lowly secretary/clerk who's sole job in
the offices of 'Bignose, Wideboy and Lyer' appears to be opening
envelopes and putting the innards in the correct in-tray.
--
Cheers, Arty ;-//)
Mike Lyle
wrote:
[...]>I have
>never seen a female equivalent to Messrs suggested, let alone used.
The standard British equivalent has long been Mmes, pronounced mesdames.
Mike.
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>
>"Aaron Davies" <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com> wrote in message
>news:1eyrs5g.130cgjc1xfs4lxN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com...
>> Bernhard Aggeler <Bernhard...@AAAConsulting.com> wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly adress business
>people in
>> > an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
>
>> AFAIK traditional etiqutte, if you know the name of the person to whom
>> you are writing is, to use "Dear Mr. Smith:" for the salutation. I
>don't
>> think "dear" is considered too personal, but if you do, I think "To
>Mr.
>> Smith:" is also acceptable. Other possibilities, if you don't know the
>> name, include "Dear sir or madam:" and "To whom it may concern:". The
>> one absolutely vital thing, for reasons I've never understood, is to
>use
>> a colon, not a comma, to end the salutation.
>
>In UK, the colon is not used in this way. The salutation is followed by
>a comma, or more probably no mark of punctuation at all. Standard
>practice is to omit purely conventional punctuation of this kind (e.g.
>in dates, addresses, abbreviations...) not serving a grammatical or
>practical purpose.
>
Agreed.
>"Dear Sir or Madam" (NB capital letters) is not regarded as proper
>British etiquette. One should take pains to discover the sex of the
>person concerned, and if this is not practicable then something like
>"Dear Personnel Manager" should be used.
There are problems with this. Many utilities, for example, send out
standard letters which need a reply, but the letters either have no
department name on them so it's a job and a half to discover the
department, or they just have a 'B. Smith' with a scrawl underneath
which may be the originator, or may be a secretary signing routine
letters on behalf of his or her boss. Some letters have a made-up name
on them (not an actual person) for whatever reason. Why should I waste
my time and money finding out who is whom, if they can't be bothered
to tell me? In the latter case I address the envelope to 'B. Smith',
and the letter marked 'for the attention of B. Smith..... Dear Sir or
Madam....'
>"To whom it may concern" is not
>a salutation in the usual sense, but appears (usually underlined) at top
>left of an "open" testimonial or reference for which a salution is
>unsuitable.
>
Agreed.
>"Dear Bernhard Aggeler" is sometimes seen, either for a stranger's name
>from which sex cannot be deduced or in some professions, especially the
>arts.
>
I don't like this form at all, and would not use 'Dear B. Smith' in my
example above. A letter with 'Dear Robin Bignall' is almost always
computer-generated and is either a begging letter from a charity or is
from a company wanting to sell me something I don't want or need.
>The graded chart of German salutations given by Dr Aman has no British
>equivalent at the most honorific end. Traditional formal salutations are
>listed in some usage manuals, but rarely used. "Dear Professor Aman" or
>"Dear Dr Aman" serve for formal and neutral letters, and of course for
>informal letters to someone whom one doesn't know well.
>
Indeed. The French seem to be extremely curt at the front-end,
'Monsieur, Madame', but have a whole set of flowery closings which
appear to depend on the apparent status of both the sender and the
recipient.
--
wrmst rgrds
RB...(docr...@ntlworld.com)
JB
>
> Guy Morgan writes:
> > I was taught that the use of Dear Sir or Madam was impolite to the point
> > of being offensive. One was expected to find out the sex of the person
> > being addressed.
>
> This seems bizarre to me. Either one is expected to find out the
> person's *name*, or one isn't. If not, then I think "Dear Sir/Madam"
> is fine. (Using "or" instead of a slash is okay too, but seems more
> formal than necessary.) "Dear <position>" also works, and I have been
> known to use "Dear <organization>" as well.
>
> If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's a woman, and you want
> to refer to her by last name, use "Mrs." or "Miss" with it only if you
> find out that that's how she prefers to be addressed; the default in
> business usage these days is "Ms."
If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's "L. Smith", then what
do you do? "Dear Mr. or Ms. Smith" sort of sucks. "Dear L. Smith"?
> There is a style where you state the person's name and position (business
> letters normally include the recipient's address, and it would naturally
> go there) and then follow this with "Dear Sir" or "Dear Madam", whichever
> is appropriate. But again, this seems excessively formal to me.
>
> All of this is for letters. For email, no salutation is needed.
My view is that eliminating the salutation altogether solves many
difficulties in business correspondence.
Here's how I do it:
XYZ Co.
Some City, Some State
Attention: L. Smith, Personnel Director
Subject: Some matter
[Body text]
Regards, <--very neutral
My Name
My Position
*My Firm
*My Firm's address
*My Firm's phone number
*Omit if item is printed in letterhead
I see no reason to treat email differently from snail mail business
correspondence.
--JB
Tony Cooper
>In the latter case I address the envelope to 'B. Smith',
> and the letter marked 'for the attention of B. Smith.....
How are we supposed to address P. Schultz and N. Mitchum? If we refer
to them jointly as P & N, it sounds like they are a railroad.
Anne Burgess
> How are we supposed to address P. Schultz and N. Mitchum? If we refer
> to them jointly as P & N, it sounds like they are a railroad.
Put 'Messrs P Schultz and N Mitchum' in the address and 'Dear Sirs,' as the
salutation. If you don't know which individual to send the letter to, then
you are effectively sending it to the firm, and the 'Dear Sirs,' salutation
is entirely appropriate.
Anne
Polar
<job...@carolina.rr.comTRIMTHISPART> wrote:
>Mark Brader wrote:
>>
>> Guy Morgan writes:
>
[.. thrashing around...]
>My view is that eliminating the salutation altogether solves many
>difficulties in business correspondence.
Exactly. I do the same as you outline below, when I don't have the
name of the addressee. And sometimes even when I do have their name.
Given the general illiteracy of even middle management, and as a
result of my years in script synopses and other editing functions, I
like to convey the important info up front, short and succinct as a
sort of "log line", in the fond believe that this will give me a
prayer of getting the matter dealt with.
When in a whimsical mood, or when writing on a non-crucial matter, I
may occasionally use "Dear Folks".
My preferred complimentary closing is "Faithfully" in business
matters.
>
>Here's how I do it:
>
>XYZ Co.
>Some City, Some State
>
>Attention: L. Smith, Personnel Director
>
>Subject: Some matter
>
>[Body text]
>
>Regards, <--very neutral
>
>My Name
>My Position
>*My Firm
>*My Firm's address
>*My Firm's phone number
>
>*Omit if item is printed in letterhead
>
>I see no reason to treat email differently from snail mail business
>correspondence.
>
>--JB
--
Polar
email only
JB
M-W defines virgule simply as "diagonal: 3 : a mark / used typically to
denote "or" (as in and/or), "and or" (as in straggler/deserter), or
"per" (as in feet/second) -- called also slash, solidus, virgule"
--JB
M. Ranjit Mathews
> > How are we supposed to address P. Schultz and N. Mitchum? If we refer
> > to them jointly as P & N, it sounds like they are a railroad.
> > Tony Cooper
>
> Put 'Messrs P Schultz and N Mitchum' in the address and 'Dear Sirs,'
Dear Sirs and Madams:-)
David
Mathews <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Anne Burgess" <Anne.B...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:<9miflg$e29$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>...
> > > How are we supposed to address P. Schultz and N. Mitchum? If we
> > > refer to them jointly as P & N, it sounds like they are a
> > > railroad. Tony Cooper
> >
> > Put 'Messrs P Schultz and N Mitchum' in the address and 'Dear Sirs,'
> Dear Sirs and Madams:-)
said the chief inspector as he entered the brothel...
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y03-0.htm
Whitby Abbey & the Parish Church of St Mary framed by the Whalebone Arch
Charles Riggs
<g...@first-light-services.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <11jjotsakh4cjvrb9...@4ax.com>, Charles Riggs
><chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> writes
>> If the person's
>>name in unknown to you, then write "Dear Sir or Madam".
>>
>>Charles Riggs
>
>Ouch! Surely not.
>
>I was taught that the use of Dear Sir or Madam was impolite to the point
>of being offensive. One was expected to find out the sex of the person
>being addressed.
If you can then you should. Many times there is no way one can know
who will be reading your letter, especially if you are writing to a
large company. I have never heard before that anyone considered "Dear
Sir or Madam" offensive in those cases. "Dear Sir/Madam", on the other
hand, is to be avoided.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>Just a note on this. In traditional US formal and business letters, a
>colon must be used, while a comma is traditional in personal or informal
>non-business letters.
Is that still the case in the US? Most often, these days, I see
business letters addressed with a comma. I can't recall the last time
I received one with a colon.
Charles Riggs
Aaron Davies
> In article <1d4c67e3.01082...@posting.google.com>, M. Ranjit
> Mathews <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Anne Burgess" <Anne.B...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
> > news:<9miflg$e29$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>...
> > > > How are we supposed to address P. Schultz and N. Mitchum? If we
> > > > refer to them jointly as P & N, it sounds like they are a
> > > > railroad. Tony Cooper
> > >
> > > Put 'Messrs P Schultz and N Mitchum' in the address and 'Dear Sirs,'
>
> > Dear Sirs and Madams:-)
>
> said the chief inspector as he entered the brothel...
I should think that would be "Dear sirs and madam". There's usually only
one. Of course these days, it would be "Yo, pimp daddy and ma homies!"
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ______ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
Polar
You need to cultivate a better class of business correspondents.
--
Polar
Aaron Davies
Richard Fontana
We probably mean something different by "business letters", though you are
probably correct to use a more expansive definition. I mean the subset of
business correspondence that takes place between businesspersons,
particularly those affiliated with the larger American corporations and
other enterprise organizations, and/or non-altruistic service-economy
professionals and paraprofessionals of a sufficiently sophisticated or
cosmopolitan sort. In that domain it is an absolute rule that the colon
is used after the greeting. I don't doubt that in commercial
communications between companies and non-commercial human consumers there
has been some tendency to move away from traditional conventions of
business correspondence. If I were writing a letter as a non-commercial
human consumer to a service provider, however, I would adhere strictly to
the traditional conventions.
David
> > In article <1d4c67e3.01082...@posting.google.com>, M.
> > Ranjit Mathews <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > "Anne Burgess" <Anne.B...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in
> > > message news:<9miflg$e29$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>...
> > > > > How are we supposed to address P. Schultz and N. Mitchum? If
> > > > > we refer to them jointly as P & N, it sounds like they are a
> > > > > railroad. Tony Cooper
> > > >
> > > > Put 'Messrs P Schultz and N Mitchum' in the address and 'Dear
> > > > Sirs,'
> >
> > > Dear Sirs and Madams:-)
> >
> > said the chief inspector as he entered the brothel...
> I should think that would be "Dear sirs and madam". There's usually
> only one. Of course these days, it would be "Yo, pimp daddy and ma
> homies!"
I bow to your knowledge on these matters.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/20-pyro.htm
Prometheus stood with his fronds of gut...
Johannes H Andersen
How can you write to someone in particular if you don't know his/her name.
In that case you must be writing to a company or an organisation. I have
often seen the use of "Dear Sir" in that case; the sex of a non-specific
person hardly matters.
Johannes
Robert Lieblich
[ . . .]
> I don't doubt that in commercial
> communications between companies and non-commercial human consumers there
> has been some tendency to move away from traditional conventions of
> business correspondence. If I were writing a letter as a non-commercial
> human consumer to a service provider, however, I would adhere strictly to
> the traditional conventions.
This very morning I had occasion to ghost-write a letter for a
relative to send to a bank on a business matter. I had the name of
the bank official to whom the relative is writing, and I
unhesitatingly typed "Dear Ms. Fontana:" [fake surname substituted]
-- with colon. It would never have dawned on me to do otherwise.
I follow the same practice when sending mail in my official capacity
as a Federal employee -- "Dear <name>:"
This is, quite simply, how it's done in the US. It is entirely
conventional, arbitrary if you wish. But it's how it's done.
Period.
Mike Lyle
Lieblich wrote:
>
>Richard Fontana wrote:
[...]I
>unhesitatingly typed "Dear Ms. Fontana:" [fake surname substituted]
>-- with colon. It would never have dawned on me to do otherwise.
>
>I follow the same practice when sending mail in my official capacity
>as a Federal employee -- "Dear <name>:"
>
>This is, quite simply, how it's done in the US. It is entirely
>conventional, arbitrary if you wish. But it's how it's done.
>Period.
It's a comma in European English. Full stop.
Mike.
Dr Robin Bignall
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
>>In the latter case I address the envelope to 'B. Smith',
>> and the letter marked 'for the attention of B. Smith.....
>
>How are we supposed to address P. Schultz and N. Mitchum? If we refer
>to them jointly as P & N, it sounds like they are a railroad.
Well, Schultzy does tend to railroad some people a bit. :)
It's a serious point, though. P&N Schultz used to have a joint e-mail
address, and until I read your post I did not know that the N was for
N. Mitchum. Postings were usually signed by P.
Since I do not know their address I could not write a letter. An
e-mail can be somewhat more informal, so I'd address a business e-mail
to 'The Schultzes', and refer to 'the posting on AEU by P. Schultz of
such and such a date'. If they were friends, I'd be able to say 'Dear
Paul and Nora...' (or whatever their names are).
--
wrmst rgrds
RB...(docr...@ntlworld.com)
Monika Seidel
"Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <am...@sonic.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3B8A0D...@sonic.net...
> Steve MacGregor wrote:
>
> > "Bernhard Aggeler" <Bernhard...@AAAConsulting.com> wrote:
>
> > > I hope to be on the right place here. I am originally not
> > > English-speaking but German (Switzerland).
> > >
> > > Can anybody help me in telling me how I correctly address business
> > > people in an email/letter? It is very embarassing for me...
> > >
> > > Same is for using the first name, e.g. "Karsten," only as this
> > > may be unpolite?
>
> > Dear Mr Aggeler:
> >
> > This is the correct business form, with a colon after the person's
> > name. We do use the word "dear", the equivalent of German "Lieber".
>
> It's a bit more complicated than that. The "dear" in "Dear Mr. X" means
> "Lieber" (lit., dear) OR "Sehr geehrter" (lit., very honored). The
> first is somewhat informal, the second is formal and standard in
> business. Thus:
>
> Dear Mr. Smith: is formal = Sehr geehrter Herr Schmied!
> Dear Mr. Smith, is less formal = Lieber Herr Schmied! (OR: Schmied, )
>
> In German, the exclamation point in a salutation does not indicate an
> exclamation but simply formality. Modern, young, hip Germans use the
> exclamation point less frequently than the comma, except in strictly
> formal situations.
As far as I know exclamation points are considered to be oldfashioned.
Comma is what I usually see, and secretaries are taught only to use comma.
>
> While not as complicated as Japanese honorifics and degrees of respect,
> in German there's a number of ways to address someone, here ranged from
> the least to the most formal. I'm addressed in letters and e-mails from
> German-speaking countries as follows:
>
> Lieber Reinhold, (OR: Reinhold!) + familiar "du"
> Lieber Reinhold, (OR: Reinhold!) + formal "Sie"
> Lieber Herr Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
> Lieber Herr Dr. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
> Lieber Herr Prof. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
> Lieber Herr Prof. Dr. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
> Sehr geehrter Herr Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
> Sehr geehrter Herr Dr. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
> Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Aman, (OR: Aman!) + formal "Sie"
> Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Dr. Aman, + formal "Sie"
> Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Dr. Aman! + formal "Sie"
> Sehr geehrter Herr Professor Dr. Aman! + formal "Sie"
A lot of e-mails I receive use "Hallo Frau Seidel," (Hi Ms. Seidel) for
business purposes.
>
> Most addresses with "!" are somewhat more formal than with "," (except
> in the first example):
>
> "Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Dr. Aman," is not quite as formal as:
> "Sehr geehrter Herr Prof. Dr. Aman!" Spelling out "Prof." is the most
> formal: "Sehr geehrter Herr Professor Dr. Aman!" "Dr." is rarely
> spelled out.
>
> "Herr Dr. Aman" and "Herr Prof. Aman" are equally formal, but when both
> titles are used, "Prof." always precedes "Dr.": "Prof. Dr. X"; but
> never: "Dr. Prof. X."
>
> Many times, Germans, Austrians and Swiss will also translate "Herr"
> (Mr.) and address me (on the envelope and in the letter) as "Mr. Dr.
> Aman" (= Herr Dr. Aman) or "Dear Mr. Prof. Aman" (= Lieber Herr Prof.
> Aman) and even "Dear Mr. Prof. Dr. Aman" (= Lieber Herr Prof. Dr. Aman).
>
> I've also seen similar superfluous double titles from Dutch
> corresponents who translate word-for-word their Dutch titles into
> English.
>
> --
> Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Polar
To whom?
>
>Johannes
--
Polar
meirm...@erols.com
<job...@carolina.rr.comTRIMTHISPART> posted:
>Mark Brader wrote:
>>
>> Guy Morgan writes:
>> > I was taught that the use of Dear Sir or Madam was impolite to the point
>> > of being offensive. One was expected to find out the sex of the person
>> > being addressed.
>>
>> This seems bizarre to me. Either one is expected to find out the
>> person's *name*, or one isn't. If not, then I think "Dear Sir/Madam"
>> is fine. (Using "or" instead of a slash is okay too, but seems more
>> formal than necessary.) "Dear <position>" also works, and I have been
>> known to use "Dear <organization>" as well.
>>
>> If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's a woman, and you want
>> to refer to her by last name, use "Mrs." or "Miss" with it only if you
>> find out that that's how she prefers to be addressed; the default in
>> business usage these days is "Ms."
>
>If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's "L. Smith", then what
>do you do? "Dear Mr. or Ms. Smith" sort of sucks. "Dear L. Smith"?
How about Dear M. Smith M. is something that Mr. Mrs. and Ms. all
have in common, as well as Monsieur Madame and Mademoiselle.
Let's popularize that.
>
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
meirm...@erols.com
sme...@mindspring.com (Polar) posted:
>
>My preferred complimentary closing is "Faithfully" in business
>matters.
Several of you have mentioned this. I'm here, so I'll comment here.
They barely mentioned faithfully in school, or maybe I only heard it
somewhere else.
Is this some new thing?
At any rate, I have a problem with it. "Sincerely" seems to me only
to say that the contents of the letter were sincere, which in my case
99% of the time they are.
But faithfully seems to me not appropriate to describe the contents of
the letter, almost any letter except one in which I describe having
followed the addressee's instructions, or at least say that I've done
so. Instead for most letters, it seems to describe my attitude at the
time I finish it. It seems to me to mean I have to be faithful to the
addressee, loyal mostly, maybe upholding his trust in me. With some
people I would be glad to do that, but I don't want to get in the
habit of saying this, almost promising it, to everyone.
I like "Yours" in a personal letter as someone said, because it
doesn't say I what level I am hers. When I make up my mind, I can add
more words.
Charles Riggs
<johannes...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
Then why "Dear Sir" and not "Dear Madam"? Don't fight city hall: the
way it is done in polite society is to write "Dear Sir or Madam" when
the name of the reader is unknown to you.
Charles Riggs
David
<meirm...@erols.com> wrote:
> In alt.english.usage on Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:56:54 GMT JB
> <job...@carolina.rr.comTRIMTHISPART> posted:
> >If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's "L. Smith", then
> >what do you do? "Dear Mr. or Ms. Smith" sort of sucks. "Dear L.
> >Smith"?
> How about Dear M. Smith M. is something that Mr. Mrs. and Ms. all
> have in common, as well as Monsieur Madame and Mademoiselle.
> Let's popularize that.
Seems silly to me, writing "Dear M. Smith" when the addressee (Oh, how
I love all those double letters in that word!) is L. Smith.
How about....
"Comrade:
Blah, blah, blah."
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/07-0.htm
Haddocks are sensitive fish...
Anne Burgess
> A lot of e-mails I receive use "Hallo Frau Seidel," (Hi Ms. Seidel) for
> business purposes.
If I get a so-called 'business' e-mail from a stranger starting "Hallo", I
bin it at once. To me it's an unwarranted familiarity, like telesales people
using my given name.
Anne
Bill McCray
wrote:
>In article <kn2uot4kkdup0948m...@4ax.com>,
> <meirm...@erols.com> wrote:
>> In alt.english.usage on Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:56:54 GMT JB
>> <job...@carolina.rr.comTRIMTHISPART> posted:
>
>> >If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's "L. Smith", then
>> >what do you do? "Dear Mr. or Ms. Smith" sort of sucks. "Dear L.
>> >Smith"?
>
>> How about Dear M. Smith M. is something that Mr. Mrs. and Ms. all
>> have in common, as well as Monsieur Madame and Mademoiselle.
>
>> Let's popularize that.
>
>Seems silly to me, writing "Dear M. Smith" when the addressee (Oh, how
>I love all those double letters in that word!) is L. Smith.
>
>How about....
>
>
>"Comrade:
>
>Blah, blah, blah."
"Greetings:"
Bill McCray
Lexington, KY
Bill McCray
>sme...@mindspring.com (Polar) posted:
>
>>
>>My preferred complimentary closing is "Faithfully" in business
>>matters.
Neither the salutation nor the complimentary closing of a letter
serves any useful purpose. My recommendation is, if you're not sure
what to use for either of them, just omit it. I think it is better to
leave someone wondering (if, indeed, it's even noticed) why there is
no salutation than to risk offending the reader.
Bill McCray
Lexington, KY
Harvey V
>> My preferred complimentary closing is "Faithfully" in business
>> matters.
> Several of you have mentioned this. I'm here, so I'll comment here.
> They barely mentioned faithfully in school, or maybe I only heard
> it somewhere else.
> Is this some new thing?
I understood it to be a very old-fashioned thing.
I never used "Yours faithfully" in Canada, but when I moved to Britain
I discovered it was the standard closing salutation for business
letters which were not addressed to a specific person. Thus:
Dear Sirs,
Yours faithfully,
but
Dear Mr Johnson,
Yours sincerely,
My own experience would suggest that this is a rightpondian convention.
Harvey
David
Bill McCray <BillM...@MindSpring.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:17:26 +0100, David <da...@dacha.freeuk.com>
> wrote:
[Snip]
> >"Comrade:
> "Greetings:"
"Greetings Comrade:"
Any advance? Going once...
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/3c-0.htm
Speak soft of Monday's Silvern Moon,
Whilst watching silvern Fish glide by;
Tony Cooper
> "Greetings:"
The draft board ruined that one for me.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>In article <kn2uot4kkdup0948m...@4ax.com>,
> <meirm...@erols.com> wrote:
>> In alt.english.usage on Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:56:54 GMT JB
>> <job...@carolina.rr.comTRIMTHISPART> posted:
>
>> >If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's "L. Smith", then
>> >what do you do? "Dear Mr. or Ms. Smith" sort of sucks. "Dear L.
>> >Smith"?
>
>> How about Dear M. Smith M. is something that Mr. Mrs. and Ms. all
>> have in common, as well as Monsieur Madame and Mademoiselle.
>
>> Let's popularize that.
>
>Seems silly to me, writing "Dear M. Smith" when the addressee (Oh, how
>I love all those double letters in that word!) is L. Smith.
>
>How about....
>
>
>"Comrade:
>
>Blah, blah, blah."
I like that.
Yours truly, faithfully, sincerely and honestly; assuring you of our
continued support, encouragement and freedom to express opinions, and
of our total esteem,
J. Stalin (Mr)
USSR Novelty Corp.
Bill McCray
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Bill McCray:
>
>> "Greetings:"
>
>The draft board ruined that one for me.
I understand, but it is a perfectly good salutation that doesn't have
any gender/sex connotations.
Bill McCray
Lexington, KY
JB
>
> In alt.english.usage on Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:56:54 GMT JB
> <job...@carolina.rr.comTRIMTHISPART> posted:
>
> >Mark Brader wrote:
> >>
> >> Guy Morgan writes:
> >> > I was taught that the use of Dear Sir or Madam was impolite to the point
> >> > of being offensive. One was expected to find out the sex of the person
> >> > being addressed.
> >>
> >> This seems bizarre to me. Either one is expected to find out the
> >> person's *name*, or one isn't. If not, then I think "Dear Sir/Madam"
> >> is fine. (Using "or" instead of a slash is okay too, but seems more
> >> formal than necessary.) "Dear <position>" also works, and I have been
> >> known to use "Dear <organization>" as well.
> >>
> >> If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's a woman, and you want
> >> to refer to her by last name, use "Mrs." or "Miss" with it only if you
> >> find out that that's how she prefers to be addressed; the default in
> >> business usage these days is "Ms."
> >
> >If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's "L. Smith", then what
> >do you do? "Dear Mr. or Ms. Smith" sort of sucks. "Dear L. Smith"?
>
> How about Dear M. Smith
That's not exactly putting your best foot forward, since L. Smith will
simply think you're incapable of getting even the initial right.
> M. is something that Mr. Mrs. and Ms. all
> have in common, as well as Monsieur Madame and Mademoiselle.
>
> Let's popularize that.
Can't be done, since M. is already assigned to monsieur.
How about a Ustinov-like "My dear Smith"?
--JB
Polar
wrote:
>In article <3b8f8787...@news.mindspring.com>,
> Bill McCray <BillM...@MindSpring.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:17:26 +0100, David <da...@dacha.freeuk.com>
>> wrote:
>
>[Snip]
>
>> >"Comrade:
>
>> "Greetings:"
>
>"Greetings Comrade:"
>
>Any advance? Going once...
Which brings me, somewhat OT, to UK pronunciation.
Do you guys still say "comrayd", whereas in US we say "comraaaad"
(must learn phonetics some day soon).
--
Polar
Polar
<whhvs@*removethis*operamail.com> wrote:
>On 31 Aug 2001, I take it that meirm...@erols.com said:
>
>>> My preferred complimentary closing is "Faithfully" in business
>>> matters.
>
>> Several of you have mentioned this. I'm here, so I'll comment here.
>> They barely mentioned faithfully in school, or maybe I only heard
>> it somewhere else.
>> Is this some new thing?
>
>I understood it to be a very old-fashioned thing.
Maybe that's why I like it.
[...]
--
Polar
Polar
Unfortunately, because of the long custom of using a complimentary
close, the absence of one could be taken as expression of curtness
or mini-hostility. Have to gauge whether you want to risk "offending"
addressee.
--
Polar
Skitt
"{R} Richard Ashton" <{R}@semolina.org> wrote in message
news:0utvototai2a1f541...@4ax.com...
> In uk.culture.language.english on Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:13:59 +0100, Anne
> Burgess in <9mnk9q$kb4$1...@uranium.btinternet.com> lapidated and wrote:
>
> }> A lot of e-mails I receive use "Hallo Frau Seidel," (Hi Ms. Seidel) for
> }> business purposes.
> }
> }If I get a so-called 'business' e-mail from a stranger starting "Hallo",
I
> }bin it at once.
>
> Seem a bit harsh for a spelling error, but it is your choice.
>
What spelling error? The greeting is in German.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
Peter Duncanson
Yes, I think it is still most common in the UK for "comrade" to
rhyme with "parade".
--
Peter D.
UK
JB
>
> David <da...@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
>
> > Bill McCray <BillM...@MindSpring.com> wrote:
> > > David <da...@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
> >
> >[Snip]
> >
> >> >"Comrade:
> >
> >> "Greetings:"
> >
> >"Greetings Comrade:"
> >
> >Any advance? Going once...
>
> Which brings me, somewhat OT, to UK pronunciation.
> Do you guys still say "comrayd", whereas in US we say "comraaaad"
Does anyone still say comrayd instead of comrahd?
> (must learn phonetics some day soon).
Don't bahther. Even ipa-users disagree. Makes more sense to say
i-as-in-eat, pa-as-in-papa. Ipa is an artificial system, like unicode,
which our 'betters' would like to force on us. Crap on them, ah sezz.
--JB
Dr Robin Bignall
<whhvs@*removethis*operamail.com> wrote:
That's exactly what we were taught as the traditionally correct
opening and closing for business letters.
Dear Fred,
Yours truly,
as a third possibility, assuming that (in the traditional British
sense) you knew Fred well enough to actually call him Fred, has gone
out of fashion except, perhaps, in the most British of circles, where
you would not call Mr Fred Smith 'Fred' unless he was a close friend
or relative. Today, a letter to a friend commencing 'Dear Fred' can be
closed by whatever you wish.
I was surprised when I joined Big Blue in 1967 to find that everyone
in the company was addressed by his or her first name. It took some
getting used to, and I always assumed that it was the American
influence. Now, after following AEU for a year or two, I wonder, for
I've seen Americans here expressing displeasure at getting letters
from people they don't know which address them by their first names. I
don't like it myself, but I thought it was just because I was English.
For a business letter to someone I knew well enough to call 'Fred' I'd
still use 'Yours sincerely' to close it.
Incidentally, I've seen business letters with the 'Dear Dr Bignall'
and the 'Yours sincerely' handwritten, presumably to show that the
sender has actually read it before signing. What is the view of this
practice?
--
wrmst rgrds
RB...(docr...@ntlworld.com)
Harvey V
<docr...@ntlworld.com> said:
-snip-
> Incidentally, I've seen business letters with the 'Dear Dr Bignall'
> and the 'Yours sincerely' handwritten, presumably to show that the
> sender has actually read it before signing. What is the view of
> this practice?
I know the practice, and when I've received letters signed this way my
response has been positive rather than negative. (I've only ever
received these, though, from people I know personallyu who are at
seriously senior levels; I don't know how I'd feel if it was from a
junior functionary.)
I, too, would be interested in hearing of others' reactions to the
style.
Cheers,
Harvey
Peter Duncanson
<docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>Incidentally, I've seen business letters with the 'Dear Dr Bignall'
>and the 'Yours sincerely' handwritten, presumably to show that the
>sender has actually read it before signing. What is the view of this
>practice?
I have heard that in such cases it is 'correct' for the date
also to be handwritten, in case there has been a delay between
typing and signing.
--
Peter D.
UK
meirm...@erols.com
<da...@dacha.freeuk.com> posted:
>In article <kn2uot4kkdup0948m...@4ax.com>,
> <meirm...@erols.com> wrote:
>> In alt.english.usage on Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:56:54 GMT JB
>> <job...@carolina.rr.comTRIMTHISPART> posted:
>
>> >If you *do* find out the person's name, and it's "L. Smith", then
>> >what do you do? "Dear Mr. or Ms. Smith" sort of sucks. "Dear L.
>> >Smith"?
>
>> How about Dear M. Smith M. is something that Mr. Mrs. and Ms. all
>> have in common, as well as Monsieur Madame and Mademoiselle.
>
>> Let's popularize that.
>
>Seems silly to me, writing "Dear M. Smith" when the addressee (Oh, how
>I love all those double letters in that word!) is L. Smith.
>
>How about....
>
>
>"Comrade:
>
How about Tovarich: ?
>Blah, blah, blah."
meirm...@erols.com
Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> posted:
But if garage has 8 pronunciations how many
does parade have?