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origins / etymology of [Loo] and [Water Closet]
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Hen Hanna
Dec 9, 2016, 3:29:48 PM12/9/16
to
The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
It's not called that because it's a [closet]
in which one makes [water], is it?
loo (n.1) == "lavatory," 1940, but perhaps 1922 (based on a pun of Joyce's); perhaps [Dictionary of American Slang] from French lieux d'aisances "lavatory," literally "place of ease," picked up by British servicemen in France during World War I. Or possibly a pun on Waterloo, based on water closet.
------ Wow. Some ppl think it was coined by Joyce!
W.C. (n.) "lavatory," by 1871, abbreviation of water-closet.
water-closet (n.) "privy with a waste-pipe and means to carry off the discharge by a flush of water," 1755, from water (n.1) + closet (n.).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/water_closet
"The English Origins: There was a noble origin to the
[water closet]
((( (Britain) A flush toilet itself )))
in its earliest days. Sir John Harington, godson to Queen Elizabeth, set about making a "necessary" for his godmother and himself in 1596. A rather accomplished inventor, Harington ended his career with this invention, for he was ridiculed by his peers for this absurd device. He never built another one, though he and his godmother both used theirs." -- [no citation/attribution given!]
Don Phillipson
Dec 10, 2016, 9:23:57 AM12/10/16
to
"Hen Hanna" <henh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d51b3b8b-2756-476f...@googlegroups.com...
> The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
> It's not called that because it's a [closet]
> in which one makes [water], is it?
> , , ,
room, usually small, for either excretory functions or writing
secret corresondence. The flush toilet required both a
water supply and a sewer pipe to carry away waste, not
generally available before the 19th century. The difference
the flush toilet made to the traditional closet was the
availability of water -- hence the name WC = water closet.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:d51b3b8b-2756-476f...@googlegroups.com...
> The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
> It's not called that because it's a [closet]
> in which one makes [water], is it?
> water-closet (n.) "privy with a waste-pipe and means to carry off the
> discharge by a flush > of water," 1755, from water (n.1) + closet (n.).
For centuries before this, "closet" meant a unique closed
> discharge by a flush > of water," 1755, from water (n.1) + closet (n.).
room, usually small, for either excretory functions or writing
secret corresondence. The flush toilet required both a
water supply and a sewer pipe to carry away waste, not
generally available before the 19th century. The difference
the flush toilet made to the traditional closet was the
availability of water -- hence the name WC = water closet.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Yusuf B Gursey
Dec 11, 2016, 7:26:55 AM12/11/16
to
On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:29:48 PM UTC+2, Hen Hanna wrote:
> The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
> It's not called that because it's a [closet]
> in which one makes [water], is it?
>
>
> loo (n.1) == "lavatory," 1940, but perhaps 1922 (based on a pun of Joyce's); perhaps [Dictionary of American Slang] from French lieux d'aisances "lavatory," literally "place of ease," picked up by British servicemen in France during World War I. Or possibly a pun on Waterloo, based on water closet.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/explore/what-is-the-origin-of-the-word-loo
> The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
> It's not called that because it's a [closet]
> in which one makes [water], is it?
>
>
> loo (n.1) == "lavatory," 1940, but perhaps 1922 (based on a pun of Joyce's); perhaps [Dictionary of American Slang] from French lieux d'aisances "lavatory," literally "place of ease," picked up by British servicemen in France during World War I. Or possibly a pun on Waterloo, based on water closet.
There are several theories about the origin of this informal British term for a toilet. The first, and most popular, is that it derived from the cry of 'gardyloo' (from the French regardez l'eau 'watch out for the water'), which was shouted by medieval servants as they emptied chamber pots out of upstairs windows into the street. This is historically problematic, since by the time the term 'loo' is recorded, the expression 'gardyloo' was long obsolete.
A second theory is that the word derives from a polite use of the French term le lieu ('the place') as a euphemism. Unfortunately, documentary evidence to support this idea is lacking.
A third theory refers to the trade name 'Waterloo', which appeared prominently displayed on the iron cisterns in many British outhouses during the early 20th century. This is more credible in terms of dates, but corroborating evidence is still frustratingly hard to find. Various other colourful theories also circulate, involving references to doors numbered '00' or people called 'Looe'.
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Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Dec 11, 2016, 8:11:32 AM12/11/16
to
On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 04:26:54 -0800 (PST), Yusuf B Gursey
<ygu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:29:48 PM UTC+2, Hen Hanna wrote:
>> The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
>> It's not called that because it's a [closet]
>> in which one makes [water], is it?
>>
>>
>> loo (n.1) == "lavatory," 1940, but perhaps 1922 (based on a pun of Joyce's); perhaps [Dictionary of American Slang] from French lieux d'aisances "lavatory," literally "place of ease," picked up by British servicemen in France during World War I. Or possibly a pun on Waterloo, based on water closet.
>
>https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/explore/what-is-the-origin-of-the-word-loo
>
>There are several theories about the origin of this informal British term for a toilet. The first, and most popular, is that it derived from the cry of 'gardyloo' (from the French regardez l'eau 'watch out for the water'), which was shouted by medieval servants as they emptied chamber pots out of upstairs windows into the street.
This is historically problematic, since by the time the term 'loo' is recorded, the expression 'gardyloo' was long obsolete.
>
>A second theory is that the word derives from a polite use of the French term le lieu ('the place') as a euphemism. Unfortunately, documentary evidence to support this idea is lacking.
>
>A third theory refers to the trade name 'Waterloo', which appeared prominently displayed on the iron cisterns in many British outhouses during the early 20th century. This is more credible in terms of dates, but corroborating evidence is still frustratingly hard to find. Various other colourful theories also circulate, involving
references to doors numbered '00' or people called 'Looe'.
The OED says:
<ygu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:29:48 PM UTC+2, Hen Hanna wrote:
>> The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
>> It's not called that because it's a [closet]
>> in which one makes [water], is it?
>>
>>
>> loo (n.1) == "lavatory," 1940, but perhaps 1922 (based on a pun of Joyce's); perhaps [Dictionary of American Slang] from French lieux d'aisances "lavatory," literally "place of ease," picked up by British servicemen in France during World War I. Or possibly a pun on Waterloo, based on water closet.
>
>https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/explore/what-is-the-origin-of-the-word-loo
>
>There are several theories about the origin of this informal British term for a toilet. The first, and most popular, is that it derived from the cry of 'gardyloo' (from the French regardez l'eau 'watch out for the water'), which was shouted by medieval servants as they emptied chamber pots out of upstairs windows into the street.
This is historically problematic, since by the time the term 'loo' is recorded, the expression 'gardyloo' was long obsolete.
>
>A second theory is that the word derives from a polite use of the French term le lieu ('the place') as a euphemism. Unfortunately, documentary evidence to support this idea is lacking.
>
>A third theory refers to the trade name 'Waterloo', which appeared prominently displayed on the iron cisterns in many British outhouses during the early 20th century. This is more credible in terms of dates, but corroborating evidence is still frustratingly hard to find. Various other colourful theories also circulate, involving
references to doors numbered '00' or people called 'Looe'.
Etymology: Origin unknown.
Perhaps < French lieux (plural) latrines (1640), toilets (in later
use short for lieux d'aisances : 1802), specific (euphemistic) use
of lieu lieu n.; the English form loo may result from association
with the pronunciation of the earlier borrowing lieu n. Use of the
French word in an English context in the meaning ‘privy’ may perhaps
be shown by the following:
1782 W. Mason Let. 14 Nov. in E. W. Harcourt Papers (1883) VII.
79, I am myself employed in constructing a lieu here in our
great Residentiary house, & tho' I have many & great difficulties
to encounter I trust it will turn out a paragon, both for
sweetness, utility, & cheapness.
Alternatively, perhaps shortened < the name of Waterloo (see
Waterloo n.), perhaps punningly after water closet n.; perhaps
compare also French water toilet (1913, chiefly in plural; < water
closet n.); however, similar use of Waterloo has not been traced.
It has also been suggested that the word is shortened from
bourdaloue chamber pot of oblong shape ( < French bourdaloue (1762
or earlier in this sense) < the name of the Jesuit and preacher
Louis Bourdaloue (1632–1704), with obscure allusion, perhaps to
secrets of the confession); however, that word appears never to have
had great currency in English, and is not attested in more general
application to a toilet in either English or French.
It is frequently suggested that the word is shortened from gardyloo
n., but the assumed semantic development is considerable, and not
supported by any evidence; additionally, the chronological gap is
very considerable between the period when the cry would have had any
contemporary currency and the earliest attestations of the present
word.
The suggestion that the word is shortened from ablution n. 6 is
improbable on chronological grounds as well as in view of the
irregularity of the suggested shortening.
A number of other origins have also been suggested.
I've just notice a French phrase used in one of the quotations:
1936 D. Cooper Let. 22 Feb. in Light of Common Day (1959) 164
We've come to this very good hotel—your style, with a pretty Moorish
bath..in every room and a lu-lu à côté.
"à côté" means "beside". In English today we would probably use "en
suite".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
HVS
Dec 11, 2016, 11:15:34 AM12/11/16
to
On 10 Dec 2016, Don Phillipson wrote
I've seen 19th century architectural plans which identified both "water
closets" (WC) and "earth closets" (EC).
I'm not sure if the latter was in widespread use before WCs became common,
or if it was a retronym which became necessary to distinguish the two after
WCs were introduced.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
closets" (WC) and "earth closets" (EC).
I'm not sure if the latter was in widespread use before WCs became common,
or if it was a retronym which became necessary to distinguish the two after
WCs were introduced.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Dec 11, 2016, 11:45:56 AM12/11/16
to
On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:15:06 GMT, HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
wrote:
Judging by the quotations in the OED it looks like a retronym.
water closet, n.
1. A small room fitted out for a person to urinate and defecate in,
with a water supply to flush away the waste. Cf. toilet n. 9a,
lavatory n. 5b.
1736 R. Morris Lect. Archit.: Pt. Second xiv. 219 On the
Ground-floor a Situation like this might make the Place..free from
being offensive to the House, if converted to a Water-closet.
2. A fixed receptacle used for urination and defecation, typically
consisting of a large bowl (with a ring-shaped seat) and its
associated plumbing for flushing away the waste. Cf. toilet n. 9b,
lavatory n. 5c.
1747 Catal. Materials at Cannons 53 The leaden pipes down from
the cistern to the water closet.., at 8s per hund. weight.
earth closet n. a lavatory in which dry earth is used to cover
excrement; cf. water closet n.
1863 Jrnl. Royal Agric. Soc. 24 115 Mr. Young..has for two years
had an earth-closet in a small room within ten feet of that used
by his lodgers..as a dining room.
wrote:
water closet, n.
1. A small room fitted out for a person to urinate and defecate in,
with a water supply to flush away the waste. Cf. toilet n. 9a,
lavatory n. 5b.
1736 R. Morris Lect. Archit.: Pt. Second xiv. 219 On the
Ground-floor a Situation like this might make the Place..free from
being offensive to the House, if converted to a Water-closet.
2. A fixed receptacle used for urination and defecation, typically
consisting of a large bowl (with a ring-shaped seat) and its
associated plumbing for flushing away the waste. Cf. toilet n. 9b,
lavatory n. 5c.
1747 Catal. Materials at Cannons 53 The leaden pipes down from
the cistern to the water closet.., at 8s per hund. weight.
earth closet n. a lavatory in which dry earth is used to cover
excrement; cf. water closet n.
1863 Jrnl. Royal Agric. Soc. 24 115 Mr. Young..has for two years
had an earth-closet in a small room within ten feet of that used
by his lodgers..as a dining room.
Hen Hanna
Dec 11, 2016, 1:07:14 PM12/11/16
to
On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 6:23:57 AM UTC-8, Don Phillipson wrote:
> "Hen Hanna" <.........> wrote in message
> > The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
> > It's not called that because it's a [closet]
> > in which one makes [water], is it?
> > , , ,
> > water-closet (n.) "privy with a waste-pipe and means to carry off the
> > discharge by a flush > of water," 1755, from water (n.1) + closet (n.).
>
> For centuries before this, "closet" meant a unique closed
> room, usually small, for either excretory functions or writing
> secret corresondence. The flush toilet required both a
> water supply and a sewer pipe to carry away waste, not
> generally available before the 19th century. The difference
> the flush toilet made to the traditional closet was the
> availability of water -- hence the name WC = water closet.
> --
> Don Phillipson
> Carlsbad Springs
> (Ottawa, Canada)
Thank you. that makes a lot of sense.
the "EC" retronym notion supports it too.
i'd be even more satisfied if i could see a usage sample of
"closet" by itself meaning [toilet closet].
i can't find it in Shakespeare.
Every occurence seems to mean this kind:
My lord, he's going to his mother's closet: Hamlet: III, iii
HH
> "Hen Hanna" <.........> wrote in message
> > The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism.
> > It's not called that because it's a [closet]
> > in which one makes [water], is it?
> > , , ,
> > water-closet (n.) "privy with a waste-pipe and means to carry off the
> > discharge by a flush > of water," 1755, from water (n.1) + closet (n.).
>
> For centuries before this, "closet" meant a unique closed
> room, usually small, for either excretory functions or writing
> secret corresondence. The flush toilet required both a
> water supply and a sewer pipe to carry away waste, not
> generally available before the 19th century. The difference
> the flush toilet made to the traditional closet was the
> availability of water -- hence the name WC = water closet.
> --
> Don Phillipson
> Carlsbad Springs
> (Ottawa, Canada)
the "EC" retronym notion supports it too.
i'd be even more satisfied if i could see a usage sample of
"closet" by itself meaning [toilet closet].
i can't find it in Shakespeare.
Every occurence seems to mean this kind:
My lord, he's going to his mother's closet: Hamlet: III, iii
HH
Don Phillipson
Dec 12, 2016, 10:25:10 AM12/12/16
to
> The term [Water Closet] is obviously a euphemism. . . .
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/water_closet
In connection with "Flushed with Pride," the biography of Thomas
Crapper by Wallace Reyburn (1969, now dismissed as bogus)
http://www.snopes.com/business/names/crapper.asp suggests:
"Alexander Cummings is generally credited with inventing the first flush
mechanism in 1775 (more than 50 years before Crapper was born),
and plumbers Joseph Bramah and Thomas Twyford further developed
the technology with improvements such as the float-and-valve system. . . ."
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/water_closet
In connection with "Flushed with Pride," the biography of Thomas
Crapper by Wallace Reyburn (1969, now dismissed as bogus)
http://www.snopes.com/business/names/crapper.asp suggests:
"Alexander Cummings is generally credited with inventing the first flush
mechanism in 1775 (more than 50 years before Crapper was born),
and plumbers Joseph Bramah and Thomas Twyford further developed
the technology with improvements such as the float-and-valve system. . . ."
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