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underween, overween, ween and wean
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abzorba
Jan 12, 2012, 12:52:05 AM1/12/12
to
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.philosophy/browse_thread/thread/60ba08edcea3ccd4/d68dfbf474124c48?q=
for the original thread. In which tony cooper wrote:
[...]
> Harrison has little to offer, but comparatively underweens.
And someone else noted (re: underweens) :
Had to look that up; but it's given as a transitive verb in
Dictionary.com.
Abzorba back live.
Interesting. "Overween" is now almost as rare as underween (and MSWord
underlines both in red as spelling mistakes). But it accepts
"overweening", which is still heard today, though it too is
increasingly uncommon. See this site for some interesting etymology:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=ween&searchmode=none
"Underween" is defined in all the sources I looked up as simply "to
undervalue", (transitive verb) but all sources defined "overween" as,
mutatis mutandis "be conceited, presume, be presumptuous, be over-
confident…"(intransitive). So with the latter, the overvaluation is
always directed at oneself, but with the former it can be concerning
anything at all, thus it is an exact synonym for "undervalue" and no
more.
One might conjecture that Tony is employing "underween" as a jocular
backformation of "overween", that is to say, that Harrison thinks
humbly of himself - perhaps too humbly- whereas in direct contrast
Abzorba thinks too well of himself. Otoh, Tony has a comic history of
malapropisms in this froup and this could well be one more, albeit an
accidental felicity grants him an acquittal here. But let us be
charitable and accept the first scenario, though this be a charity he
never accords me.
Of course, the homonym "underweaned" could be of service here if we
grant Tony's construction not to be a mal mot, and it would then
suggest that the individual characterized as such had been prematurely
deprived of his mother's teat, and as a result that underweaning has
led to his later underweening (himself). Conversely, the counterpoint
would hold that the insufferable Abzorba had been overweaned;
literally, had been too long on his mother's teat or figuratively, had
been mollycoddled and indulged from the beginning, and so, as the bent
twig determines the bough's shape, had become overweening.
And this conflation of ween and wean is not entirely gratuitous. The
base word "wen" from PIE (Proto-Indo-European) language pointing to an
spectrum of modern concepts such as know, desire, strive for, and
gives us, surprisingly, BOTH ween, AND wean. The meaning of wean in
the modern sense came via an error in folk etymology where the
original "awenian" - "unaccustom" (that is the child from its mothers
teat) became wenian, as the "a" prefix became eroded, and eventually
produced "wean". The root word also gives us a rich assortment of
apparently unrelated words, including Venus, witness, wit, and of
course the "wot" in God wot, which I have discussed elsewhere.
But I have said too much. I defer now to the likes of Marius and Navi,
who more properly understand what aue is today, and who will thus
never be plonked, as I have, for broaching such matters as I have done
today, and which have no place in a forum devoted to English usage.
Myles (I go now to a far far better froup than I have ever known…)
Paulsen
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.philosophy/browse_thread/thread/60ba08edcea3ccd4/d68dfbf474124c48?q=
for the original thread. In which tony cooper wrote:
[...]
> Harrison has little to offer, but comparatively underweens.
And someone else noted (re: underweens) :
Had to look that up; but it's given as a transitive verb in
Dictionary.com.
Abzorba back live.
Interesting. "Overween" is now almost as rare as underween (and MSWord
underlines both in red as spelling mistakes). But it accepts
"overweening", which is still heard today, though it too is
increasingly uncommon. See this site for some interesting etymology:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=ween&searchmode=none
"Underween" is defined in all the sources I looked up as simply "to
undervalue", (transitive verb) but all sources defined "overween" as,
mutatis mutandis "be conceited, presume, be presumptuous, be over-
confident…"(intransitive). So with the latter, the overvaluation is
always directed at oneself, but with the former it can be concerning
anything at all, thus it is an exact synonym for "undervalue" and no
more.
One might conjecture that Tony is employing "underween" as a jocular
backformation of "overween", that is to say, that Harrison thinks
humbly of himself - perhaps too humbly- whereas in direct contrast
Abzorba thinks too well of himself. Otoh, Tony has a comic history of
malapropisms in this froup and this could well be one more, albeit an
accidental felicity grants him an acquittal here. But let us be
charitable and accept the first scenario, though this be a charity he
never accords me.
Of course, the homonym "underweaned" could be of service here if we
grant Tony's construction not to be a mal mot, and it would then
suggest that the individual characterized as such had been prematurely
deprived of his mother's teat, and as a result that underweaning has
led to his later underweening (himself). Conversely, the counterpoint
would hold that the insufferable Abzorba had been overweaned;
literally, had been too long on his mother's teat or figuratively, had
been mollycoddled and indulged from the beginning, and so, as the bent
twig determines the bough's shape, had become overweening.
And this conflation of ween and wean is not entirely gratuitous. The
base word "wen" from PIE (Proto-Indo-European) language pointing to an
spectrum of modern concepts such as know, desire, strive for, and
gives us, surprisingly, BOTH ween, AND wean. The meaning of wean in
the modern sense came via an error in folk etymology where the
original "awenian" - "unaccustom" (that is the child from its mothers
teat) became wenian, as the "a" prefix became eroded, and eventually
produced "wean". The root word also gives us a rich assortment of
apparently unrelated words, including Venus, witness, wit, and of
course the "wot" in God wot, which I have discussed elsewhere.
But I have said too much. I defer now to the likes of Marius and Navi,
who more properly understand what aue is today, and who will thus
never be plonked, as I have, for broaching such matters as I have done
today, and which have no place in a forum devoted to English usage.
Myles (I go now to a far far better froup than I have ever known…)
Paulsen
tony cooper
Jan 12, 2012, 1:58:56 AM1/12/12
to
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Harrison Hill
Jan 12, 2012, 2:41:44 AM1/12/12
to
On Jan 12, 6:58 am, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:52:05 -0800 (PST), abzorba
>
>
>
>
>
> <myles...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:52:05 -0800 (PST), abzorba
>
>
>
>
>
> >See:
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.philosophy/browse_thread/thread/60...
> >for the original thread. In which tony cooper wrote:
> >[...]
> >> Harrison has little to offer, but comparatively underweens.
>
> >And someone else noted (re: underweens) :
>
> >Had to look that up; but it's given as a transitive verb in
> >Dictionary.com.
>
> >Abzorba back live.
> >Interesting. "Overween" is now almost as rare as underween (and MSWord
> >underlines both in red as spelling mistakes). But it accepts
> >"overweening", which is still heard today, though it too is
> >increasingly uncommon. See this site for some interesting etymology:
> >http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=ween&se...
> >[...]
> >> Harrison has little to offer, but comparatively underweens.
>
> >And someone else noted (re: underweens) :
>
> >Had to look that up; but it's given as a transitive verb in
> >Dictionary.com.
>
> >Abzorba back live.
> >Interesting. "Overween" is now almost as rare as underween (and MSWord
> >underlines both in red as spelling mistakes). But it accepts
> >"overweening", which is still heard today, though it too is
> >increasingly uncommon. See this site for some interesting etymology:
>
> >"Underween" is defined in all the sources I looked up as simply "to
> >undervalue", (transitive verb) but all sources defined "overween" as,
> >mutatis mutandis "be conceited, presume, be presumptuous, be over-
> >confident "(intransitive). So with the latter, the overvaluation is
> >always directed at oneself, but with the former it can be concerning
> >anything at all, thus it is an exact synonym for "undervalue" and no
> >more.
>
> >One might conjecture that Tony is employing "underween" as a jocular
> >backformation of "overween", that is to say, that Harrison thinks
> >humbly of himself - perhaps too humbly- whereas in direct contrast
> >Abzorba thinks too well of himself.
>
> Got it in one. Congratulations.
"Ween" comes from originally from "love" and is the same word that has
> >"Underween" is defined in all the sources I looked up as simply "to
> >undervalue", (transitive verb) but all sources defined "overween" as,
> >mutatis mutandis "be conceited, presume, be presumptuous, be over-
> >confident "(intransitive). So with the latter, the overvaluation is
> >always directed at oneself, but with the former it can be concerning
> >anything at all, thus it is an exact synonym for "undervalue" and no
> >more.
>
> >One might conjecture that Tony is employing "underween" as a jocular
> >backformation of "overween", that is to say, that Harrison thinks
> >humbly of himself - perhaps too humbly- whereas in direct contrast
> >Abzorba thinks too well of himself.
>
> Got it in one. Congratulations.
fetched up in "Venus" is it not? I object to being "underweened" by
you Tony because failure that I may have been in every other
department of my life, at least I got the "love" bit right!
...Be nought agrieve'd
Sir knight, that thus ye now subdewed arre:
Was never man, who most conquestes atchiev'd,
But sometimes had the worse, and lost by warre;
Yet shortly gayn'd, that losse exceeded farre;
Losse is no shame, nor to be lesse then foe;
But to be lesser then himselfe doth marre
Both loosers lott, and victour's prayse alsoe...
abzorba
Jan 12, 2012, 3:30:43 AM1/12/12
to
Hear him! Oh Hear him! He is a Solomon come to Justice, and a voice
which answers calmly and thus turneth away wrath. I have much to learn
from him. And I feel as if I can read his very thoughts...
But I might demur or cavil with his etymology which has ween and love
as cognates. This etymological text does not concur:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=love&searchmode=none
But that source provided me just now with a wonderful note on
something that I had wondered about all my life: "love" as zero, in
tennis, derives from the notion of "playing for love", that is "for
free". Sounds like fake folk etymology, but the site is an excellent
one.
Myles (If you cannot abide me, then listen to one the velcro on whose
shoes I am not fit to unfasten) Paulsen
James Silverton
Jan 12, 2012, 8:26:11 AM1/12/12
to
"That they took me into the partnership
And that junior partnership, I ween
Was the only ship that I ever had seen"
--
Jim Silverton
Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
Harrison Hill
Jan 12, 2012, 9:58:00 AM1/12/12
to
Random House says otherwise:
"In its early history, ween was sometimes used as a noun meaning
'opinion; belief' or 'expectation; hope; probability'. The word was
common to the Germanic languages, and is probably related to an Indo-
European root meaning 'to love', from which the name of the Roman
goddess Venus also descended."
...and your own link has the words "Ween", "Wont" and "Venus"
juxtaposed and linked by a "cf".
wean
O.E. wenian "to accustom," from P.Gmc. *wanjanan (cf. O.N. venja, Du.
wennen, O.H.G. giwennan, Ger. gewöhnen "to accustom"), from *wanaz
"accustomed" (related to wont). The sense of weaning a child from the
breast in O.E. was generally expressed by gewenian or awenian, which
has a sense of "unaccustom" (cf. Ger. abgewöhnen, entwöhnen "to wean,"
lit. "to unaccustom"). The prefix subsequently wore off. Figurative
extension to any pursuit or habit is from 1520s.
wont
"accustomed," O.E. wunod, pp. of wunian "to dwell, be accustomed,"
from P.Gmc. *wun- "to be content, to rejoice" (cf. O.S. wunon, O.Fris.
wonia "to dwell, remain, be used to," O.H.G. wonen, Ger. wohnen "to
dwell;" related to O.E. winnan, gewinnan "to win" (see win) and to
wean. The noun meaning "habitual usage, custom" is attested from c.
1300.
Venus
O.E., from L. Venus (pl. veneres), in ancient Roman mythology, the
goddess of beauty and love, especially sensual love, from venus "love,
sexual desire, loveliness, beauty, charm," from PIE base *wen- "to
strive after, wish, desire, be satisfied" (cf. Skt. vanas- "desire,"
vanati "desires, loves, wins;" Avestan vanaiti "he wishes, is
victorious;" O.E. wynn "joy," wunian "to dwell," wenian "to accustom,
train, wean," wyscan "to wish"). Applied by the Romans to Greek
Aphrodite, Egyptian Hathor, etc. Meaning "second planet from the sun"
is attested from late 13c. (O.E. had morgensteorra and æfensteorra).
The venus fly-trap (Dionæa muscipula) was discovered 1760 by Gov.
Arthur Dobbs in North Carolina and description sent to Collinson in
England. The Algonquian name for the plant, titipiwitshile, yielded
regional Amer.Eng. tippity wichity.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=wean&searchmode=none
Curlytop
Jan 12, 2012, 3:28:56 PM1/12/12
to
abzorba set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:
> And this conflation of ween and wean is not entirely gratuitous. The
> base word "wen" from PIE (Proto-Indo-European) language pointing to an
> spectrum of modern concepts such as know, desire, strive for, and
> gives us, surprisingly, BOTH ween, AND wean.
Win?
> The meaning of wean in
> the modern sense came via an error in folk etymology where the
> original "awenian" - "unaccustom" (that is the child from its mothers
> teat) became wenian, as the "a" prefix became eroded, and eventually
> produced "wean". The root word also gives us a rich assortment of
> apparently unrelated words, including Venus, witness, wit, and of
> course the "wot" in God wot, which I have discussed elsewhere.
Went, originally the past tense of wend?
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
continuum:
> And this conflation of ween and wean is not entirely gratuitous. The
> base word "wen" from PIE (Proto-Indo-European) language pointing to an
> spectrum of modern concepts such as know, desire, strive for, and
> gives us, surprisingly, BOTH ween, AND wean.
> The meaning of wean in
> the modern sense came via an error in folk etymology where the
> original "awenian" - "unaccustom" (that is the child from its mothers
> teat) became wenian, as the "a" prefix became eroded, and eventually
> produced "wean". The root word also gives us a rich assortment of
> apparently unrelated words, including Venus, witness, wit, and of
> course the "wot" in God wot, which I have discussed elsewhere.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
James Silverton
Jan 12, 2012, 3:36:35 PM1/12/12
to
"wean" (pronounced "wayn") is a common Scots word for a small child. Of
course, the standard use of "wean" in raising children is well known.
CDB
Jan 13, 2012, 8:01:21 AM1/13/12
to
Harrison Hill wrote:
> abzorba <myles...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> Harrison Hill <harrish...@gmx.com> wrote:
>>> tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> abzorba <myles...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> [ween and ween again]
dictionary (JR Clark Hall ed.):"(unemphatic verbal prefix); I. orig. =
/forth, away/, but as a rule only intensive in meaning." So the verb
would have meant "accustom away" at most; and the existence of
"gewenian" as an alternative suggests that they both simply meant
"accustom".
The references to the "Algonquian" name I've seen on Gg are phrased
identically, probably because they are all copied from one source.
Other articles postulate naughtier origins:
http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq2880.html
> abzorba <myles...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> Harrison Hill <harrish...@gmx.com> wrote:
>>> tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> abzorba <myles...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> [ween and ween again]
>
> wean
> O.E. wenian "to accustom," from P.Gmc. *wanjanan (cf. O.N. venja,
> Du.
> wennen, O.H.G. giwennan, Ger. gewöhnen "to accustom"), from *wanaz
> "accustomed" (related to wont). The sense of weaning a child from
> the
> breast in O.E. was generally expressed by gewenian or awenian, which
> has a sense of "unaccustom" (cf. Ger. abgewöhnen, entwöhnen "to
> wean,"
> lit. "to unaccustom"). The prefix subsequently wore off. Figurative
> extension to any pursuit or habit is from 1520s.
>
Maybe that "a-" meant something, maybe not. From my paper AS
> wean
> O.E. wenian "to accustom," from P.Gmc. *wanjanan (cf. O.N. venja,
> Du.
> wennen, O.H.G. giwennan, Ger. gewöhnen "to accustom"), from *wanaz
> "accustomed" (related to wont). The sense of weaning a child from
> the
> breast in O.E. was generally expressed by gewenian or awenian, which
> has a sense of "unaccustom" (cf. Ger. abgewöhnen, entwöhnen "to
> wean,"
> lit. "to unaccustom"). The prefix subsequently wore off. Figurative
> extension to any pursuit or habit is from 1520s.
>
dictionary (JR Clark Hall ed.):"(unemphatic verbal prefix); I. orig. =
/forth, away/, but as a rule only intensive in meaning." So the verb
would have meant "accustom away" at most; and the existence of
"gewenian" as an alternative suggests that they both simply meant
"accustom".
identically, probably because they are all copied from one source.
Other articles postulate naughtier origins:
http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq2880.html
abzorba
Jan 17, 2012, 2:29:05 AM1/17/12
to
>
> The references to the "Algonquian" name I've seen on Gg are phrased
> identically, probably because they are all copied from one source.
> Other articles postulate naughtier origins:
>
> http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq2880.html- Hide quoted text -
> The references to the "Algonquian" name I've seen on Gg are phrased
> identically, probably because they are all copied from one source.
> Other articles postulate naughtier origins:
>
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Excellent. This thread reminds me of the aue of old - the newsfroup
> - Show quoted text -
you could not only yodel, but was wont to yodel.
Myles (if you ween wot I mean....) Paulsen
bcvan...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2018, 12:15:05 PM11/22/18
to
The Butterfly Cabinet, by author Bernie McGill uses the word wean often. Sometimes referring to an adult "when I ask about it the nurses say there's nothing to worry about, like I was a wean worrying about monsters under the bed"
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Nov 22, 2018, 4:59:16 PM11/22/18
to
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 09:15:03 -0800 (PST), bcvan...@gmail.com wrote:
>The Butterfly Cabinet, by author Bernie McGill uses the word wean often. Sometimes referring to an adult "when I ask about it the nurses say there's nothing to worry about, like I was a wean worrying about monsters under the bed"
"Wean" means a young child.
>The Butterfly Cabinet, by author Bernie McGill uses the word wean often. Sometimes referring to an adult "when I ask about it the nurses say there's nothing to worry about, like I was a wean worrying about monsters under the bed"
In that quotation "like I was a wean" means "like I was a small child",
with "like" meaning "as if".
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/wean#h70337908881520
wean2
noun
Scottish, Northern English
A young child.
Origin
Late 17th century: contraction of wee ane ‘little one’.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Anton Shepelev
Nov 23, 2018, 3:34:15 AM11/23/18
to
Peter Duncanson:
>In that quotation "like I was a wean" means "like I was a
>small child", with "like" meaning "as if".
And "was" meaning "were"?
--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]
>In that quotation "like I was a wean" means "like I was a
>small child", with "like" meaning "as if".
--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]
John Varela
Nov 23, 2018, 12:45:57 PM11/23/18
to
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 17:15:03 UTC, bcvan...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Butterfly Cabinet, by author Bernie McGill uses the word wean often. Sometimes referring to an adult "when I ask about it the nurses say there's nothing to worry about, like I was a wean worrying about monsters under the bed"
A portmanteau of "wee one"/"wee 'un"?
> The Butterfly Cabinet, by author Bernie McGill uses the word wean often. Sometimes referring to an adult "when I ask about it the nurses say there's nothing to worry about, like I was a wean worrying about monsters under the bed"
--
John Varela
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