Campaign ad: "I'm John Kerry and I proved this message...."
Bill Bonde ( ''Stop this farce!'' ''Which one?'' )
Obviously he meant to say: "I'm John Kerry and I approved this
message...."
How can this happen given that this is a campaign ad that is prerecorded
and the candidate can have as many retakes as might be needed?
Peter Duncanson
Presumably everyone who listen during recording heard what they expected to
hear which was "approved".
Either that, or it is a cunning means of not being held liable for the
content of the ad. ;-)
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)
Bill Bonde ( ''Stop this farce!'' ''Which one?'' )
I was thinking also that he might be actually actively trying to seem
more 'down home' and less aloof. It's pretty clear that Bush has the
laid back "folks" speech patterns that resonate with the South and
others better than the stodgy stuff from the Northeast. Perhaps Kerry is
trying, in his own way, to develop some linguistic passion.
(!!)
Peter Duncanson
Ah, I see. He might be trying to increase his 'proval among the folks.
Professor Redwine
Tryin' to 'crease it, you mean?
--
Redwine
Hamburg
Robert Stevahn
''Which one?'' )" <std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
Perhaps he considers his ads to be based on facts, whereas Dubya's ads
always appear to stretch the truth, and that's putting it kindly.
-- Robert
Donna Richoux
<std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
Would you please repeat the URL for this (I assume there was one) and
any other relevant info? Your post is the first in my newsreader (I
think the earlier one must have been filtered out).
Without having heard anything, my guess is that in some people's
dialect, the sound of "I" and the "a" of "approved" would blend
together.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Raymond S. Wise
news:bs2590hv1a0lgn13k...@4ax.com...
Yes, I know you're joking, but...
I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, and [DISCLAIMER] the following
is speculation, not advice. I would think that the pronunciation difference
in question would make no difference. I say this based upon what has been
reported here in Minnesota concerning another legal matter.
Businesses which wish to deny people carrying guns from entering their
buildings must put up a sign which says, among other things "[Name of
company] PROHIBITS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES." That exact wording was
prescribed by the law, and "ON THESE PREMISES" is presumably not permitted.
(The idea behind the "IN" is principally that businesses are not allowed to
prohibit guns on their grounds, such as in their parking lots.) Every time I
have read a speculation about whether a business could rightly prohibit
someone from carrying guns into the building if their sign contained the
word "IN" rather than "ON" has concluded that it would likely make no
difference, and (looking back through an admittedly hazy memory) at least
one of those speculating was a lawyer.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Bill Bonde ( ''Stop this farce!'' ''Which one?'' )
Donna Richoux wrote:
>
> Bill Bonde ( ''Stop this farce!'' ''Which one?'' )
> <std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
>
> > Obviously he meant to say: "I'm John Kerry and I approved this
> > message...."
> >
> > How can this happen given that this is a campaign ad that is prerecorded
> > and the candidate can have as many retakes as might be needed?
>
> Would you please repeat the URL for this (I assume there was one) and
>
No, it's from me listening to Kerry campaign ads. I've heard this one
several times. Listen yourself and see if he always uses the same voice
over approving, I mean 'proving' his message.
> any other relevant info? Your post is the first in my newsreader (I
> think the earlier one must have been filtered out).
>
> Without having heard anything, my guess is that in some people's
> dialect, the sound of "I" and the "a" of "approved" would blend
> together.
>
One person has suggested some sort of 'subliminable' message. That's an
actual possibility. What I'm wondering though is if anyone thinks this
might also be an attempt from a guy from the Northeast to sound folksy.
Donna Richoux
<std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
> Donna Richoux wrote:
> >
> > Bill Bonde ( ''Stop this farce!'' ''Which one?'' )
> > <std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Obviously he meant to say: "I'm John Kerry and I approved this
> > > message...."
> > >
> > > How can this happen given that this is a campaign ad that is prerecorded
> > > and the candidate can have as many retakes as might be needed?
> >
> > Would you please repeat the URL for this (I assume there was one) and
> >
> No, it's from me listening to Kerry campaign ads. I've heard this one
> several times. Listen yourself and see if he always uses the same voice
> over approving, I mean 'proving' his message.
>
Hmm, I see. But those of us outside the US are not going to hear
campaign ads.
...All right, I found the video clips of his campaign ads at the
official website. I listened to this one:
http://www.johnkerry.com/videos/console.php?video=041904_enviroad#041904
_enviroad
To my ear, I have absolutely no trouble understanding him to say "I'm
John Kerry and I approved this message." Yeah, the "a-" is slightly
unstressed, but not so much as to cause me any problem. What do you
expect for an I followed by an A? "I-YUH-proved"?
You are specifically wondering whether he uses the same single recording
to approve each different ad? Seems most likely. There's a bunch of ads
at that site, you can compare them easily. Even if he had to say the
same line a dozen times, it would quite possibly sound the same.
>
> > any other relevant info? Your post is the first in my newsreader (I
> > think the earlier one must have been filtered out).
> >
> > Without having heard anything, my guess is that in some people's
> > dialect, the sound of "I" and the "a" of "approved" would blend
> > together.
> >
> One person has suggested some sort of 'subliminable' message. That's an
> actual possibility. What I'm wondering though is if anyone thinks this
> might also be an attempt from a guy from the Northeast to sound folksy.
It sounds like a natural manner to me. How much exposure do you have to
the speech of that region? His pronunciation does not strike me as
markedly Boston or Northeastern, but I lived there for 14 years, so what
sounds "normal" to me may not be the same for you. And I can't begin to
guess what "folks" you think he'd be pretending to imitate with this
kind of speech. And why.
Peter Duncanson
<mplsra...@gbronline.com> wrote:
>
>I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, and [DISCLAIMER] the following
>is speculation, not advice. I would think that the pronunciation difference
>in question would make no difference. I say this based upon what has been
>reported here in Minnesota concerning another legal matter.
>
>Businesses which wish to deny people carrying guns from entering their
>buildings must put up a sign which says, among other things "[Name of
>company] PROHIBITS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES." That exact wording was
>prescribed by the law, and "ON THESE PREMISES" is presumably not permitted.
>(The idea behind the "IN" is principally that businesses are not allowed to
>prohibit guns on their grounds, such as in their parking lots.) Every time I
>have read a speculation about whether a business could rightly prohibit
>someone from carrying guns into the building if their sign contained the
>word "IN" rather than "ON" has concluded that it would likely make no
>difference, and (looking back through an admittedly hazy memory) at least
>one of those speculating was a lawyer.
That's interesting - definitely one for the lawyers.
Peter Duncanson
>Hmm, I see. But those of us outside the US are not going to hear
>campaign ads.
>
>...All right, I found the video clips of his campaign ads at the
>official website. I listened to this one:
>
>http://www.johnkerry.com/videos/console.php?video=041904_enviroad#041904
>_enviroad
>
>To my ear, I have absolutely no trouble understanding him to say "I'm
>John Kerry and I approved this message." Yeah, the "a-" is slightly
>unstressed, but not so much as to cause me any problem. What do you
>expect for an I followed by an A? "I-YUH-proved"?
To my English ear it comes across quite clearly as "approved".
When I first heard news reports about John Kerry, before reading his name, I
assumed from its pronunciation that his surname was Cary or Carey.
But, that's just my English ear again.
Tony Cooper
Saying the three names aloud, I don't hear a difference. How does
Carey differ from Kerry to an English ear?
Sara Lorimer
> It sounds like a natural manner to me. How much exposure do you have to
> the speech of that region? His pronunciation does not strike me as
> markedly Boston or Northeastern, but I lived there for 14 years, so what
> sounds "normal" to me may not be the same for you. And I can't begin to
> guess what "folks" you think he'd be pretending to imitate with this
> kind of speech. And why.
Folks like me, I guess, because it sounds entirely normal to my ears.
--
SML, who thinks Arlo Guthrie sounds folksy despite being from
Massachusetts
Sara Lorimer
> One person has suggested some sort of 'subliminable' message. That's an
> actual possibility.
Oh my.
> What I'm wondering though is if anyone thinks this
> might also be an attempt from a guy from the Northeast to sound folksy.
I'm sure that yes, there's some wingnut somewhere who believes that. Me,
I'm curious how you define "folksy" and why people from the Northeast
can't sound that way.
--
SML, thinking of Fred Tuttle
Donna Richoux
That's the big merry-marry-Mary discussion. The British and some
Americans put the & sound, the A as in "cat", in front of R, which is
rather hard for many of us.
I just looked for sound files on the a.u.e website. Here is a British
man saying "marry"
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/marry4.wav
And here is Richard Fontana saying, "Mary dear, make me merry, say
you'll marry me."
http://alt-usage-english.org/mmm_rf.wav
Richard likes to think that he also says "Mary" in a way different from
"merry," but sometimes he realizes he doesn't. But anyway, the "marry"
is distinct.
Carriage, Larry, Harris, garage, arrogant -- there are specific words
that can contain this special "ar" sound. If you ever watched Deep Space
Nine, you might have heard it in the way the British characters said
"Garek."
Now that that's all said and done, I have to say I don't understand
Peter Duncanson's comment. Americans don't say "Kerry" the way that an
English person would say "Carey." As far as I know, they say it the way
English people would say "Kerry", except I have to admit there are some
peculiar UK variations in words with an "er" in the middle.
My best guess is that Peter meant he heard Americans utter this name,
he didn't know whether the Americans would spell it Kerry, Cary, or
Carey, and he guessed wrong on the spelling. Which is exactly the same
dilemma any American would face on hearing the name, too. Except that
there are even more possibilities, like Kerrey and Carry.
meirman
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> posted:
They sound the same to me too, but in NYC,
they pronounce Mary, marry, and merry each differently.
So I guess Cary, Carey, and Kerry could have two pronunciations or
maybe even three!
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years
meirman
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) posted:
When I say it, the "a" could easily for me be teeny weeny weeny. and
spoken as in, Ia proved this message. I can slow down and say it
distinctly, but it takes some effort to make a full syllable out of
it.
Another consideration is the total length of the piece. If it runs
one word too long for the time slots, they have to cut out a word of
the same length, or speed up some parts of the text to save time.
They may well use the same recording every time.
Maria Conlon
> Bill Bonde wrote:
>> Donna Richoux wrote:
>>>
>>>> Obviously he meant to say: "I'm John Kerry and I approved
this
>>>> message...."
>>>>
>>>> How can this happen given that this is a campaign ad that is
>>>> prerecorded and the candidate can have as many retakes as
>>>> might be needed?
>>>
>>> Would you please repeat the URL for this (I assume there was
>>> one) and
>>>
>> No, it's from me listening to Kerry campaign ads. I've heard
>> this one several times. Listen yourself and see if he always
>> uses the same voice over approving, I mean 'proving' his
message.
>>
> Hmm, I see. But those of us outside the US are not going to
hear
> campaign ads.
>
> ...All right, I found the video clips of his campaign ads at
the
> official website. I listened to this one:
>
>
http://www.johnkerry.com/videos/console.php?video=041904_enviroad#041904
> _enviroad
Thanks for the url, Donna.
> To my ear, I have absolutely no trouble understanding him to
say
> "I'm
> John Kerry and I approved this message." Yeah, the "a-" is
> slightly unstressed, but not so much as to cause me any
problem.
> What do you
> expect for an I followed by an A? "I-YUH-proved"?
I listened six or seven of the ads; in one, the 'a' in 'approved'
was a bit faint, but was definitely there. In the others, there
was no question that the word 'approved' was spoken. (I noticed
that the budget ad, which presents George Bush as a child, did
not have the approval message in spoken form. It was written on
the last 'screen,' though. I don't know for sure if that conforms
with the new guidelines, but I presume it does.)
Anyone want my opinion of the content of the ads? Let me know by
email. I won't hold my breath. :-)
Maria Conlon
Politics. It's all politics.
Michael DeBusk
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 14:11:50 -0700, Bill Bonde ( ''Stop this farce!''
''Which one?'' ) <std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
> One person has suggested some sort of 'subliminable' message.
> That's an actual possibility.
Not so much subliminal... not exactly.
In Ericksonian-style hypnosis, the hypnotist intentionally uses
linguistic ambiguity to induce trance. All possible interpretations of
the ambiguity are tested, and the one that works is the one we keep. In
the case of "proved/approved", they BOTH make good sense, so the
thought is that, on an other-than-conscious level, we keep them both.
The conscious mind is used to "approve" and notices that one.
Advertising is filled with this stuff. Some of it is unintentional,
such as the sign I saw at a Crown gasoline station which said, "Quality
is not an option!" I'm sure they wanted to communicate that quality is
inherent in their product, but I thought about a conversation I heard
between a guy and his girlfriend: "How about some oral sex tonight?"
"Sorry, dear, that's not an option."
As a pretty good Ericksonian hypnotist myself, I've seen such things
work. It's interesting to watch people trance out just by talking to
them in what most people would consider "normal conversation".
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet?
Steve Howarth
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 23:59:38 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>
> >Hmm, I see. But those of us outside the US are not going to hear
> >campaign ads.
> >
> >...All right, I found the video clips of his campaign ads at the
> >official website. I listened to this one:
> >
> >http://www.johnkerry.com/videos/console.php?video=041904_enviroad#041904
> >_enviroad
> >
> >To my ear, I have absolutely no trouble understanding him to say "I'm
> >John Kerry and I approved this message." Yeah, the "a-" is slightly
> >unstressed, but not so much as to cause me any problem. What do you
> >expect for an I followed by an A? "I-YUH-proved"?
>
> To my English ear it comes across quite clearly as "approved".
Same here.
Steve Howarth
Mike Lyle
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:39:35 +0100, spake Peter Duncanson thus:
> >
> > Ah, I see. He might be trying to increase his 'proval among the folks.
>
> Tryin' to 'crease it, you mean?
The 'ception may prove the ruler.
Mike.
Peter Duncanson
The vowel sound in Carey is long - similar to that in 'air', 'fare', 'fair',
'mare'.
The e in Kerry is a short sound - similar to that in 'Ken', 'kept' and
'bed'. It is a more constricted sound than that in Carey.
I _think_ the difference is represented in ASCII IPA as /E@/ (Carey) and /E/
(Kerry).
Peter Duncanson
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>Saying the three names aloud, I don't hear a difference. How does
>>Carey differ from Kerry to an English ear?
>>
>
>The vowel sound in Carey is long - similar to that in 'air', 'fare', 'fair',
>'mare'.
>
>The e in Kerry is a short sound - similar to that in 'Ken', 'kept' and
>'bed'. It is a more constricted sound than that in Carey.
>
>I _think_ the difference is represented in ASCII IPA as /E@/ (Carey) and /E/
>(Kerry).
>
A further point: if an English person were asked to say each name split into
two distinct syllables, Kerry would be Ke-rry but Carey would be Care-y.
Professor Redwine
> The 'ception may prove the ruler.
ROTFLMAO
--
Redwine
Hamburg
Areff
> Businesses which wish to deny people carrying guns from entering their
> buildings must put up a sign which says, among other things "[Name of
> company] PROHIBITS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES."
That first "which" seems to be a sort of inverse of the Tony Cooperian
inappropriate "that". I have no particular problem with the second
"which".
--
Areff
> A further point: if an English person were asked to say each name split into
> two distinct syllables, Kerry would be Ke-rry but Carey would be Care-y.
That's also how a MINMINM American speaker would split the syllables. Put
differently, there's little to no r-coloring in "merry", but a fair amount
of r-coloring in "Mary".
*Some* AUE people have claimed that they can't hear the difference between
my pronunciation of "merry" and "Mary", but I chalk that up to their being
MIMIM.
--
Areff
> And here is Richard Fontana saying, "Mary dear, make me merry, say
> you'll marry me."
>
> http://alt-usage-english.org/mmm_rf.wav
>
> Richard likes to think that he also says "Mary" in a way different from
> "merry," but sometimes he realizes he doesn't.
Whoa! I think I *always* say "Mary" differently from "merry" except in a
few unusual cases:
(a) When speaking, with semi-conscious intent, to a MIMIM speaker in an
effort not to sound too "elitist" (hey, I can't help it if 'Mairicans
think of MINMINM accents as elite-sounding)
(b) In the special case of monosyllables I think I have trouble
maintaining the distinction. I have in mind the 'mispronunciation' of
"err" versus "air".
It's also possible that in *extremely* rapid speech (and I believe we New
York speakers tend to speak a lot more quickly than Amairicans from other
regions[1]) the merry/Mary distinction is difficult to maintain, because
you can't keep the "merry" vowel sufficiently separate from the following
/r/, but I'm not sure. In a sense the merry/Mary distinction is one of
vowel length, and I'd imagine that the 'Tish would concur.
> Now that that's all said and done, I have to say I don't understand
> Peter Duncanson's comment. Americans don't say "Kerry" the way that an
> English person would say "Carey." As far as I know, they say it the way
> English people would say "Kerry", except I have to admit there are some
> peculiar UK variations in words with an "er" in the middle.
I snipped what Duncanson said, but I have to assume that he's Dead Wrong
anyway. "Kerry" rhymes with "merry", period (= BrE "full stop"). "Carey"
is more of an issue. As a Brooklynite, if not as a New Yorker, I rhyme
"Carey" with "marry" (i.e., a homophone of "carry"), which is a sort of
sub-MINMINM oddity (Aaron Dinkin, for example, a Bostonian, rhymes
"Carey" with "Mary", which I believe is what most 'Tish people do). To my
ears most 'Mairicans pronounce "Kerry" as if it were "Cairy".
> My best guess is that Peter meant he heard Americans utter this name,
> he didn't know whether the Americans would spell it Kerry, Cary, or
> Carey, and he guessed wrong on the spelling. Which is exactly the same
> dilemma any American would face on hearing the name, too. Except that
> there are even more possibilities, like Kerrey and Carry.
I'm reminded of my pronunciation of "karaoke". I use the "merry" vowel,
pronouncing it as if it were spelled "kerry-okey". This is odd since <ar>
generally calls for either "marry" or "Mary" (but one exception is words
with the -ary or -arian suffix, which take "merry"). I think the
explanation is that I heard some MIMIM speaker pronounce "karaoke" before
I ever saw it spelled out. Usually MIMIM vowels sound like "Mary" to me,
but occasionally you find MIMIM speakers who sound like they use "merry"
or even "marry". When I do my Jimmy Stewart impersonation, I tend to use
a very r-colored "marry" vowel.
[1]I've been finding that I have no patience for the extremely slow
talkin' people on one of my utility companies' customer service lines. I
hear a distinct Southernisticness in the speech of these people. I'm
guessing that they're in Missoura or some such place. Maybe some place
with lower labor costs, like Arkansas. And they all have trouble
understanding me because I talk so fast. I try to slow down and put in a
bit of drawl, but to no avail.
Thing is, maybe these people aren't from Missoura or Arkansas at all.
They could very well be The Folks From Bangalore[TM], who have been well
trained in the art of putting on a convincing slow-talkin' Southernistic
US accent. If you think labor costs in Missoura or Arkansas are low,
you should see what they are in Bangalore, not to mention Giltota!
Speaking of Kerry, this is becoming a bogus political issue in the US,
with the 'Crats jumping on the crypto-racist
isolationo-nationalisto-autarkist protectionist bandwagon. Shame on those
'Crats! Coop's all for it because he thinks the 'Crats are more likely to
bail out the ailing Orlando/Disneyworld economy. Talk about
self-interest!
--
Areff
[re John Kerry]
> It sounds like a natural manner to me. How much exposure do you have to
> the speech of that region? His pronunciation does not strike me as
> markedly Boston or Northeastern, but I lived there for 14 years, so what
> sounds "normal" to me may not be the same for you.
Kerry certainly does not have a recognizable New England accent of any
sort. Not now, and not when he was younger -- I was watching some footage
of him back when he was one of the Vietnam Vets Against The War. His
accent back then was a lot more elitist/patrician/snobby-sounding (now it
just sort of sounds bombastic), but not in a Brahmin or other New England
sort of way.
I think his accent may be more East Coast than "other", but I only say
that because I don't hear any of the various elements of "other" American
accents that are absent from the East Coast (i.e.: twanginess,
drawliness, or "Hint of Cowboy"). You usually have one of those three
things in any sort of Southern or Western US accent, not to mention
Midland (central to south Midwestern, say).
Make no mistake, Kerry's total absence of Southern and Western accent
features (i.e., absence of drawliness, twanginess, and Hint of Cowboy) is
almost certain to prevent him from winning the Presidency. In US
politics, accent is everything.
--
Jonathan Jordan
news:1gd317o.11pdryw529at1N%tr...@euronet.nl...
> Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 23:35:06 +0100, Peter Duncanson
> > <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
<snip>
> > >When I first heard news reports about John Kerry, before reading
his name, I
> > >assumed from its pronunciation that his surname was Cary or
Carey.
> > >But, that's just my English ear again.
> >
> > Saying the three names aloud, I don't hear a difference. How does
> > Carey differ from Kerry to an English ear?
>
> That's the big merry-marry-Mary discussion. The British and some
> Americans put the & sound, the A as in "cat", in front of R, which
is
> rather hard for many of us.
That would be "carry", not "Carey" or "Kerry", though - see below.
<snip>
> Now that that's all said and done, I have to say I don't understand
> Peter Duncanson's comment. Americans don't say "Kerry" the way that
an
> English person would say "Carey." As far as I know, they say it the
way
> English people would say "Kerry", except I have to admit there are
some
> peculiar UK variations in words with an "er" in the middle.
Although the convention seems to be to use /E/ for the MIMIM merged
vowel, I (and, it seems, most other MINMINM speakers) tend to hear the
merged vowel as being like our "Mary" vowel, not our "merry" vowel.
That is, I hear all of MIMIM "merry", "marry" and "Mary" as sounding
like "Mary".
I don't know why this is - maybe the MIMIM /E/ before /r/ tends to be
a long vowel. But anyway, it doesn't surprise me that MIMIM
pronunciations of "Kerry" sound like "Carey" (rhyming with "Mary") to
British ears.
Jonathan
Areff
[Richoux:]
>> That's the big merry-marry-Mary discussion. The British and some
>> Americans put the & sound, the A as in "cat", in front of R, which
> is
>> rather hard for many of us.
>
> That would be "carry", not "Carey" or "Kerry", though - see below.
But note that in New York (or possibly only Brooklyn) "Carey" rhymes with
"marry".
> Although the convention seems to be to use /E/ for the MIMIM merged
> vowel, I (and, it seems, most other MINMINM speakers) tend to hear the
> merged vowel as being like our "Mary" vowel, not our "merry" vowel.
> That is, I hear all of MIMIM "merry", "marry" and "Mary" as sounding
> like "Mary".
Same here, and I think Aaron Dinkin reported likewise. As I noted
yesterday, there are some exceptions, but the vast majority of AmE MIMIMs
sound like they're using "Mary" for all three.
> I don't know why this is - maybe the MIMIM /E/ before /r/ tends to be
> a long vowel.
My intuition is that it's the r-coloring of the MIMIM vowel.
--