How do you really pronounce macabre?
Emily
A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
wholly & thankfully silent.
My generally wishy-washy dictionary disappointed me (again) by ambivalently
promulgating the irresolute triad of (a) muh-kah-bruh, (b) muh-kahb, and
(c) muh-kah-ber.
Oi vei! Such weasly waffling bothers me immensly.
Digging further and farther, the American Heritage Dictionary seems just as
undecisive, proposing the now-familiar ternion (a) mə-kä'brə, (b) mə-käb',
and (c) mə-kä'bər.
Oi vai iz mir, what dither. May I ask would the original proponents have
prounounced the "r" or not?
That is, a Frenchman (Macabre), aLatin (Maccabaeus), or a Greek (Makkabios)
pronounce the "r" or not? Should we?
Thanks, in advance, for your astute advice,
Emily
mb
...
> undecisive, proposing the now-familiar ternion (a) mə-kä'brə, (b) mə-käb',
> and (c) mə-kä'bər.
>
> Oi vai iz mir, what dither.
[Post uneasy to plod through, what with all the interference and the
idiotic dictionary umlauts]
> May I ask would the original proponents have
> prounounced the "r" or not?
>
> That is, a Frenchman (Macabre), aLatin (Maccabaeus), or a Greek (Makkabios)
> pronounce the "r" or not? Should we?
What on Earth is the Greek (that, if it ever mentioned such a word as
Makkabaíos, only mentioned it as an exotic loan just like you talk of
Ornithorhynchus) doing in that list? Same for Latin.
As for the French, the relative word you are looking for is not the
old-established medical student slang macchabée (cadaver), first
written mention 1619. Different and independent from the word macabre,
which is always with an <R> and that may or may not have the same
origin --that of Arabic maqber, tomb, brought during the Crusades
(first in writing 13some) being much more probable.
So the only origin has the <R>, and anyway it is totally irrelevant to
its English pronunciation. Since when has English pronunciation of
anything any relationship to the original, except if accidentally?
Emily
> So the only origin has the <R> ...
Looking deeper than the French supposed origin, I've found macabre perhaps
to really be of Jewish origin ... an origin which doesn't have an <R>.
"Macabre is first recorded in the phrase 'Macabrees daunce' in a work
written around 1430 by John Lydgate. Macabree was thought by Lydgate to be
the name of a French author, but in fact he misunderstood the Old French
phrase 'Danse Macabre', 'the Dance of Death,' a subject of art and
literature. ... The macabre element may be an alteration of Macabe, 'a
Maccabee.' The Maccabees were Jewish martyrs who were honored by a feast
throughout the Western Church, and reverence for them was linked to
reverence for the dead. Today macabre has no connection with the Maccabees
and little connection with the Dance of Death, but it still has to do with
death."
Hence, my argument for the "muh-cob" pronounciation, sans <R>.
However, I'd like to know what others, more learned than I, suggest?
Thanks, in advance, for your advice,
Emily
mb
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 03:57:37 -0000, mb wrote:
> > So the only origin has the <R> ...
>
> Looking deeper than the French supposed origin, I've found macabre perhaps
> to really be of Jewish origin ... an origin which doesn't have an <R>.
Yeah, all that and more BS was duly considered in the response where
the probability of an etymon in Arabic maqber was definitely higher.
As for Lydgate etc, totally irrelevant, as he took it from the Fr.
mention of the danse macabre. If you have relevant data to defend the
other side of the etymology discussion, bring them by all means, but
avoid BS.
LFS
> On Aug 18, 9:28 pm, Emily <emlo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 03:57:37 -0000, mb wrote:
>>
>>>So the only origin has the <R> ...
>>
>>Looking deeper than the French supposed origin, I've found macabre perhaps
>>to really be of Jewish origin ... an origin which doesn't have an <R>.
>
>
> Yeah, all that and more BS was duly considered in the response where
> the probability of an etymon in Arabic maqber was definitely higher.
Not according to OED (which is also very clear that the British
pronunciation has an "r"):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[< Middle French Macabré, of uncertain origin.
The Middle French word occurs first in Jean le Fèvre's Respit de la
Mort (1376), where the author says ‘Je fis de Macabré la dance’: this is
app. a claim to have written a work called la danse Macabré. In form the
word might be a popular alteration of Old French Macabé Maccabaeus
(examples of Judas Macabré(s) occur at the end of the 12th cent.): see
Französisches Etymol. Wörterbuch s.v. Macchabeus for investigation of
the range of forms and spellings attested in Middle French for both the
present word and for words and expressions independently derived from
the biblical proper name. As regards meaning, it may be connected with
the late medieval liturgical dance or procession called chorea
Machabaeorum in Latin (Besançon, 1453) and in Middle Dutch Makkabeusdans
(15th cent.), which has been explained as arising from 2 Maccabees 7:
Französisches Etymol. Wörterbuch suggests also the association of the
liturgical office of the dead with 2 Maccabees 12:43-6 in the Vulgate
(A.V. 43-5) as a reason for a link between a cult of the Maccabees and
the dance of the dead tradition in art and literature. In Middle French
the metaphor aller a la dance De Macabré ‘to die’ is found in the 15th cent.
A less likely explanation is that Macabré was the name of the artist
who painted the picture which suggested the first poem on the subject.
There is no evidence to support the theory that the word derives from
Arabic maq{amac}bir, plural of maqbara cemetery (Moroccan colloq. Arabic
m{schwa}q{amac}ber, plural of m{schwa}qebra tomb), or from Syriac
meqabber{emac}y gravediggers. For summaries of further explanations
which have been advanced see Trésor de la Langue Française s.v.,
Französisches Etymol. Wörterbuch loc. cit.]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[..]
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
mb
> the probability of an etymon in Arabic maqber was definitely higher.
P.S. on that: That remains just one probability, and seems not to be a
majority favorite.
The candidates:
- An alleged (also possibly after-the fact invention) "chora
macchabaeorum" in an earlier writing explaining most of the Fr form
(but not the early spoken final /e/).
- A pronounced /e/ at the end of the 1st versions of the danse
macabre, suggesting some private guy's authorship (plus the find of
one record of a family name "Macabré" near Limoges
- Crusade-imported Ar. maqa:ber or Syriac meqabberey
Not a one without a clear and loud <R> at the end.
Which remains irrelevant to any English pronunciation anyway.
mb
...
> There is no evidence to support the theory that the word derives from
> Arabic maq{amac}bir, plural of maqbara cemetery (Moroccan colloq. Arabic
> m{schwa}q{amac}ber, plural of m{schwa}qebra tomb), or from Syriac
> meqabber{emac}y gravediggers. For summaries of further explanations
> which have been advanced see Trésor de la Langue Française s.v.,
> Französisches Etymol. Wörterbuch loc. cit.]
Posted simultaneously.
One thing, though: That "there is no evidence to support" is pure
unadulterated bullshit. There was never a special level of proof
required to show intermediate forms of arabic and syriac words
appearing with fitting phonetics in Western languages during the
11-13th centuries.
There is no evidence to support any of the other theories, either (now
that the mention of a chor[e]a macchabaeorum seems to be posterior to
the mentions of danse macabre).
Ray O\'Hara
"Emily" <eml...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:WYOxi.18479$eY.1...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
> In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>
> A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so
slightly
> ... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
> wholly & thankfully silent.
>
> My generally wishy-washy dictionary disappointed me (again) by
ambivalently
> promulgating the irresolute triad of (a) muh-kah-bruh, (b) muh-kahb, and
> (c) muh-kah-ber.
b,
Emily
> There is no evidence to support any of the other theories, either
I found on the web a blog which denigrates both the Arabic & Hebrew origins
http://blog.oup.com/2006/09/september_glean/ where it says ...
The story begins with the fresco of the Dance Macabre painted in 1424 in
the Church of the Innocents at Paris. The English poet and monk John
Lydgate knew [of] the fresco and [his] text accompanying the picture - a
line from his translation of the French verse - contains the earliest
attested occurrence of dance macabre in English. (The history of the French
text will not concern us here, but, most probably, the original poem was in
Latin.)
Much later, French macabre pried itself loose from its context and acquired
the meaning “related to death” (in Parisian slang it even came to mean
“corpse”).
In the 19th century, English reborrowed the French adjective; hence Engl.
macabre “suggesting death; gruesome, grisly, ghastly.”
Although the origin of macabre has not been fully clarified, the only
way to approach the riddle is through the medieval phrase: we have to
understand why the dance of death, as depicted in the fresco, was called
macabre. The scholarly literature on the meaning of the fresco, the verse,
and the expression dance macabre is vast.
Over the years many hypotheses on the origin of macabre have been offered,
but only three have been discussed at length.
According to one of them, macabre is derived from Arabic maqbara “tomb”;
plural maqabiri.
A variant of this etymology seeks the source of the French word in Biblical
Hebrew Aramaic m(e)qaber “grave digger” (my transliteration of the Semitic
words is simplified).
Neither conjecture holds out much promise. While dealing with an
enigmatic word, it is natural to search for its source in another language,
and some look-alike with a similar meaning nearly always suggests itself.
However, the fact of the loan can be established only if we succeed in
showing how the foreign word crossed the border. Macabre does not seem to
have originated in the area of France (or Spain) where the Arabic influence
was strong.
The Hebrew etymology is even less appealing.
Another hypothesis traces macabre to the name of Saint Macarius, the
Egyptian hermit. I will skip the details, because even if it were possible
to connect the picture of a dead man (Macarius?) in the Campo Santo at Pisa
with the dance of death, Macarius can hardly be twisted into macabre.
According to an ingenious suggestion, macabre is a proper name, either of
the painter of the fresco or of the poet who composed the verses. The
French name Macabre has been recorded, but since medieval painters were
extremely seldom known by name to posterity, the second possibility is to
be preferred.
However, most researchers believe that macabre goes back to the Biblical
name Macchabaeus.The origin of that name is of no consequence here.
Whether it is an acronym of Hebrew ... Macchabees?
mb
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:27:38 -0000, mb wrote:
> > There is no evidence to support any of the other theories, either
>
> I found on the web a blog which denigrates both the Arabic & Hebrew originshttp://blog.oup.com/2006/09/september_glean/where it
And repeated most of the material
> However, most researchers believe that macabre goes back to the Biblical
> name Macchabaeus.
And did not provide any reason for it
> The origin of that name is of no consequence here.
And of course all have R and your beef was with that R. RemembeR? Now
stick to it.
Oleg Lego
>In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>
>A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
>... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
>wholly & thankfully silent.
>
>My generally wishy-washy dictionary disappointed me (again) by ambivalently
>promulgating the irresolute triad of (a) muh-kah-bruh, (b) muh-kahb, and
>(c) muh-kah-ber.
Since I am not a big fan of retaining French pronunciations of
imported words, I pronounce it as in (c)
I figure if we stole it, it's ours, and we'll damn well pronounce it
in a way that will fit our language best.
mm
>On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 03:57:37 -0000, mb wrote:
>> So the only origin has the <R> ...
>
>Looking deeper than the French supposed origin, I've found macabre perhaps
>to really be of Jewish origin ... an origin which doesn't have an <R>.
My dictionary only takes macabre back to Macabre, so I am curious
about its origin, especially if its a Jewish origin. (I've read
further so I guess not.)
FTR, you didn't say otherwise but Hebrew does have an R-sound, but not
in the word Maccabee. :-)
Macabbee was a nickname for Matisyahoo and his army, and means hammer.
Of course, Matisyahoo is also known for establishing yahoo.com. <grin>
>"...Maccabee.' The Maccabees were Jewish martyrs who were honored by a feast
Strange to refer to them only as martyrs. While plenty died in the
war, not all did, and plenty on the other side died also. In the end
the Maccabees were victorious.
>throughout the Western Church, and reverence for them was linked to
>reverence for the dead.... "
But not by Jews.
If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Richard Wordingham
> On Aug 18, 8:40 pm, Emily <emlo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > undecisive, proposing the now-familiar ternion (a) mə-kä'brə, (b) mə-käb',
> > and (c) mə-kä'bər.
> Since when has English pronunciation of
> anything any relationship to the original, except if accidentally?
Quite frequently, if the word is felt as foreign, as 'macabre'
frequently is. Thus the <bre> is pronounced with various
approximations to /br/, whence the three variants given by
dictionaries. I actually pronounce the word /m@'kA:br/ (Kirshenbaum),
with unenglish final /br/ rather than /br@/ (lossless full
accommodation English phonology), /b/ (lossy accommodation) or /b@/
(assimilation to English reading rules). This is a word that canot be
treated properly unless one accepts that the writing system is part of
the language.
Richard.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
[m@kAbR] (MacAhBurr) seems to be the prestige pronunciation.
> A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
> ... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
> wholly & thankfully silent.
It might be the <e> that's silent.
<timbre> and <metre> are [tImbR] and [mi:tR] in US English.
Peter T. Daniels
> In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>
> A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
> ... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
> wholly & thankfully silent.
>
> My generally wishy-washy dictionary disappointed me (again) by ambivalently
> promulgating the irresolute triad of (a) muh-kah-bruh, (b) muh-kahb, and
> (c) muh-kah-ber.
>
> Oi vei! Such weasly waffling bothers me immensly.
>
> Digging further and farther, the American Heritage Dictionary seems just as
> undecisive, proposing the now-familiar ternion (a) mə-kä'brə, (b) mə-käb',
> and (c) mə-kä'bər.
The way dictionaries work, normally (though American Heritage _may_
put a "correct" or "preferred" pronunciation first, and "wishy-washy"
does not serve to identify your dictionary), is to list pronunciations
in order of frequency of occurrence, i.e., popularity. Thus all the
pronunciations given are used, and you are not incorrect to use any of
them.
tony cooper
wrote:
>>My generally wishy-washy dictionary disappointed me (again) by ambivalently
>>promulgating the irresolute triad of (a) muh-kah-bruh, (b) muh-kahb, and
>>(c) muh-kah-ber.
>
>Since I am not a big fan of retaining French pronunciations of
>imported words, I pronounce it as in (c)
>
I never use the word when speaking. I'm not sure what the correct
pronunciation is, but I lean to (a). That sounds so pretentious that
I don't want to use it. I'm comfortable writing the word, though.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Mike Lyle
> On Aug 19, 4:57 am, mb <azyth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 18, 8:40 pm, Emily <emlo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> m?-käb', and (c) m?-kä'b?r.
>
>> Since when has English pronunciation of
>> anything any relationship to the original, except if accidentally?
>
> Quite frequently, if the word is felt as foreign, as 'macabre'
> frequently is. Thus the <bre> is pronounced with various
> approximations to /br/, whence the three variants given by
> dictionaries. I actually pronounce the word /m@'kA:br/ (Kirshenbaum),
> with unenglish final /br/ rather than /br@/ (lossless full
> accommodation English phonology), /b/ (lossy accommodation) or /b@/
> (assimilation to English reading rules).
Over here, /m@'kA:br/ is right. I think it's one of the words for which
a quasi-French pronunciation is pretty well de rigueur in BrE. Offhand,
the only other "-bre" word like that I can think of is /timbre/ and I
don't think that's mere chance, as both words are rather rarefied.
/Calibre/ and /metre/ are anglicized.
> This is a word that canot be
> treated properly unless one accepts that the writing system is part of
> the language.
>
Well said.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
mb
> On Aug 19, 4:57 am, mb <azyth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 18, 8:40 pm, Emily <emlo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > undecisive, proposing the now-familiar ternion (a) mə-kä'brə, (b) mə-käb',
> > > and (c) mə-kä'bər.
> > Since when has English pronunciation of
> > anything any relationship to the original, except if accidentally?
>
> Quite frequently, if the word is felt as foreign, as 'macabre'
> frequently is. Thus the <bre> is pronounced with various
> approximations to /br/, whence the three variants given by
> dictionaries. I actually pronounce the word /m@'kA:br/ (Kirshenbaum),
> with unenglish final /br/ rather than /br@/ (lossless full
> accommodation English phonology), /b/ (lossy accommodation) or /b@/
> (assimilation to English reading rules).
As a furriner, I think I could not have imagined on my own that the
second and third variants had anything to do with an attempt at
accomodation (which retrospectively justifies my question re
relationship to the original).
Ray O\'Hara
"tony cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:lbmgc31hn7bih5u3t...@4ax.com...
It comes in handy when discussing Vincent Price movies.
Robert Bannister
> So the only origin has the <R>, and anyway it is totally irrelevant to
> its English pronunciation. Since when has English pronunciation of
> anything any relationship to the original, except if accidentally?
>
Or to its spelling.
--
Rob Bannister
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 18, 8:40 pm, Emily <emlo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>
> [m@kAbR] (MacAhBurr) seems to be the prestige pronunciation.
I must know unprestigious people (quite possible), as I generally hear
[m@'kAb] and [m@'cAbr@].
> > A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
> > ... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
> > wholly & thankfully silent.
>
> It might be the <e> that's silent.
>
> <timbre> and <metre> are [tImbR] and [mi:tR] in US English.
In my experience, "timbre" is ['t&mbR], and both AHD and M-W give that
pronunciation first. You're right about "metre", but it's almost
always spelled "meter".
--
Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes
Wouldn't the American spelling be "macaber", by analogy with "meager"?
For what it's worth I pronounce the r.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Paul J Kriha
news:1187584172.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
May be up your way, not down'ere. :-)
AFAIK, Americans spell the unit of measure, the technical word
for rhythm in poetry, and the instrument for reading pressures etc.,
meter. Most of the other English speakers also spell the instrument
meter but spell the other senses metre.
pjk
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
As Alfred Hitchcock pronounced it, obviously.
Jai Maharaj
http://tinyurl.com/24fq83
http://www.mantra.com/jai
http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
Om Shanti
In article <WYOxi.18479$eY.1...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>,
Emily <eml...@hotmail.com> posted:
>
> In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>
> A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
> .... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
Peter T. Daniels
Since English began to be written, well over 1000 years ago.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Sorry, I was applying Ranjit's "in US English" to my whole response.
--
Jerry Friedman
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
<jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 19, 7:10 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
>
> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 8:40 pm, Emily <emlo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>
> > [m@kAbR] (MacAhBurr) seems to be the prestige pronunciation.
>
> I must know unprestigious people (quite possible), as I generally hear
> [m@'kAb] and [m@'cAbr@].
>
> > > A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
> > > ... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
> > > wholly & thankfully silent.
>
> > It might be the <e> that's silent.
>
> > <timbre> and <metre> are [tImbR] and [mi:tR] in US English.
>
> In my experience, "timbre" is ['t&mbR], and both AHD and M-W give that
> pronunciation first.
OK. [timbR] is an alternate pronunciation, though ... and the only one
used in proper names like Timbre Speakers, Timbre Studio.
> You're right about "metre", but it's almost
> always spelled "meter".
Yet, this business in the US spells it with <re>:
Music Metre Audio Cables, 1147 East Broadway #40, Glendale, CA 91205,
USA.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
That's why I wrote "almost always".
The number of Centres and Theatres here is depressingly large,
though. (Depressing because it suggests that foreign is classier.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Lyle
[...]
> That's why I wrote "almost always".
>
> The number of Centres and Theatres here is depressingly large,
> though. (Depressing because it suggests that foreign is classier.)
I'm sure you're aware that this is really too evenly spread a human
weakness to be seriously depressing. In an upbeat and internationalist
mood, one might even think it a Good Thing.
John Kane
wrote:
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187584172.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 19, 7:10 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
> > <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Aug 18, 8:40 pm, Emily <emlo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>
> > > [m@kAbR] (MacAhBurr) seems to be the prestige pronunciation.
>
> > I must know unprestigious people (quite possible), as I generally hear
> > [m@'kAb] and [m@'cAbr@].
>
> > > > A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
> > > > ... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
> > > > wholly & thankfully silent.
>
> > > It might be the <e> that's silent.
>
> > > <timbre> and <metre> are [tImbR] and [mi:tR] in US English.
>
> > In my experience, "timbre" is ['t&mbR], and both AHD and M-W give that
> > pronunciation first. You're right about "metre", but it's almost
> > always spelled "meter".
>
> May be up your way, not down'ere. :-)
Or up here :)
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
Pat Durkin
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:46cac0d4$0$16330$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
> [...]
>> That's why I wrote "almost always".
>>
>> The number of Centres and Theatres here is depressingly large,
>> though. (Depressing because it suggests that foreign is classier.)
>
> I'm sure you're aware that this is really too evenly spread a human
> weakness to be seriously depressing. In an upbeat and internationalist
> mood, one might even think it a Good Thing.
In a really upbeat and internationalist world, we probably would only
comment upon the differences as regional, if at all, with no indication
of "Good Thing" or "Bad". "Vive la difference. Shrug. So what else is
there to talk about?"
>
Glenn Knickerbocker
> In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
For what it's worth, as a child I first remember hearing it pronounced
as "ma-car," and I've so rarely heard it spoken since that I'm stymied
every time I try to read or quote it aloud.
ŹR
JDoe
"Emily" <eml...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:WYOxi.18479$eY.1...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
> In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>
> A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so
slightly
> ... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
> wholly & thankfully silent.
>
> My generally wishy-washy dictionary disappointed me (again) by
ambivalently
> promulgating the irresolute triad of (a) muh-kah-bruh, (b) muh-kahb, and
> (c) muh-kah-ber.
>
> Oi vei! Such weasly waffling bothers me immensly.
>
> Digging further and farther, the American Heritage Dictionary seems just
as
> undecisive, proposing the now-familiar ternion (a) m?-kä'br?, (b) m?-käb',
> and (c) m?-kä'b?r.
>
R H Draney
>
>"Emily" <eml...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:WYOxi.18479$eY.1...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>> In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
>>
>You folks are serious? Oh.
Not as a general rule, but in this particular instance, yes....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
On Aug 21, 5:31 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > That's why I wrote "almost always".
>
> > The number of Centres and Theatres here is depressingly large,
> > though. (Depressing because it suggests that foreign is classier.)
>
> I'm sure you're aware that this is really too evenly spread a human
> weakness to be seriously depressing. In an upbeat and internationalist
> mood, one might even think it a Good Thing.
In a downbeat mood, one might see the evenness of the spread as making
it more depressing.
I have nothing at all against admiration and enjoyment of certain
foreign things, without which I would never have tasted Chinese food
or read Vallejo or listened to Pink Floyd or Beethoven. What bothers
me is the assumption that I'd rather shop in a Centre than a Center.
--
Jerry Friedman has never been in a focus group.
Paul J Kriha
news:1187652474.9...@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 20, 3:38 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
[...]
> > Yet, this business in the US spells it with <re>:
> > Music Metre Audio Cables, 1147 East Broadway #40, Glendale, CA 91205,
> > USA.
>
> That's why I wrote "almost always".
>
> The number of Centres and Theatres here is depressingly large,
> though. (Depressing because it suggests that foreign is classier.)
Depressing? C'est la vie!
pjk
Paul J Kriha
news:1187699762.2...@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 20, 6:13 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> wrote:
> > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1187584172.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Aug 19, 7:10 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
> > > <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Aug 18, 8:40 pm, Emily <emlo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > In American English, how should we really pronounce "macabre?"
> >
> > > > [m@kAbR] (MacAhBurr) seems to be the prestige pronunciation.
> >
> > > I must know unprestigious people (quite possible), as I generally hear
> > > [m@'kAb] and [m@'cAbr@].
> >
> > > > > A friend insists on pronouncing the penultimate letter "r" ever so slightly
> > > > > ... while I'm of the strong opinion this vestigal consonent should be
> > > > > wholly & thankfully silent.
> >
> > > > It might be the <e> that's silent.
> >
> > > > <timbre> and <metre> are [tImbR] and [mi:tR] in US English.
> >
> > > In my experience, "timbre" is ['t&mbR], and both AHD and M-W give that
> > > pronunciation first. You're right about "metre", but it's almost
> > > always spelled "meter".
> >
> > May be up your way, not down'ere. :-)
>
> Or up here :)
> John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
Yes, I know. My "up your way" was more localised, it was
meant Merkinwaywise rather than Hemispherwaywise. :-)
If I meant the whole hemisphere, I'd say, errrr, "upover"
as an antonym of "downunder". :-)
pjk
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
<jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The number of Centres and Theatres here is depressingly large,
> though.
One of the reasons for Europeans to prefer unreformed English
spellings is that it retains etymological clues.
Centre is more evocative of Spanish Centro and Indic Kendra.
> (Depressing because it suggests that foreign is classier.)
Or archaic is classier. Olde Shoppe. There was a My Ladye's Garden in
Chennai.