Trucks & Lorries Addendum

MC

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Jan 5, 2004, 6:53:44 AM1/5/04

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I just remembered another use of "truck."

I don't think most SUV owners call their vehicles "trucks" but people in
the motor trade in these parts (Montreal) do -- I've heard it from a
salesman in in the leasing business and from a couple of mechanics.

I suspect it may be because under the hood and the coachwork, many of
them *are* trucks -- built up on existing truck chassis.

I have no truck with it myself of course.

djarvinen

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Jan 5, 2004, 12:12:54 PM1/5/04

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MC <cop...@AMZAPca.inter.net> wrote in message news:<copeSP-630465....@mail.inter.net>...

And, of course, the carriage under rail cars.

Oddly enough, the entry I found listed for this usage was ddefined as
'British' yet I have often heard it in the US, most recently in "The
Station Agent" (which I will recommend, by the way).

Not much related to lorries but non sequiturs are much a way of life
here, aren't they?

Keep on truckin'!

DJ

------------------------------------------------------
preface email addie with 'd' to defeat anti-spaminator

MC

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Jan 5, 2004, 12:29:43 PM1/5/04

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In article <4c6b7a6a.04010...@posting.google.com>,
jarv...@proaxis.com (djarvinen) wrote:

> MC <cop...@AMZAPca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:<copeSP-630465....@mail.inter.net>...
> > I just remembered another use of "truck."
> >
> > I don't think most SUV owners call their vehicles "trucks" but people in
> > the motor trade in these parts (Montreal) do -- I've heard it from a
> > salesman in in the leasing business and from a couple of mechanics.
> >
> > I suspect it may be because under the hood and the coachwork, many of
> > them *are* trucks -- built up on existing truck chassis.
> >
> > I have no truck with it myself of course.
>
> And, of course, the carriage under rail cars.

Bogeys or bogies?

John Dean

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Jan 5, 2004, 2:10:29 PM1/5/04

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djarvinen wrote:
>
> Not much related to lorries but non sequiturs are much a way of life
> here, aren't they?

Only among the blokes, because we don't ask for directions. The wimmin can
follow anything anywhere.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply

meirman

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Jan 5, 2004, 11:34:09 PM1/5/04

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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Jan 2004 06:53:44 -0500 MC
<cop...@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted:

>I just remembered another use of "truck."
>
>I don't think most SUV owners call their vehicles "trucks" but people in
>the motor trade in these parts (Montreal) do -- I've heard it from a
>salesman in in the leasing business and from a couple of mechanics.

In the US they have to be officially categorized as trucks, iirc,
because that is what exempts them from gas mileage regulations. On
the theory that real men who have to haul real loads can't be burdened
by mileage rules or they won't have enough power to get the job done.

It's so stupid. They act like the automakers got around the gas
mileage rules by cleverly taking a truck and adding enough accessories
that people were willing to own them in place of their cars. But
they've had more than 10 years and they should have written the rules
differently, so that trucks used as ttrucks would be exempt and trucks
used as cars wouldn't be.

Anyhow, the auto news tonight said that SUTs were going to be more
available in the future. Sports Utility Trucks. And the auto
companies would be pushing cars again. It sounds like maybe they
changed the rule the way I want it when I wasn't looking.

>
>I suspect it may be because under the hood and the coachwork, many of
>them *are* trucks -- built up on existing truck chassis.
>
>I have no truck with it myself of course.

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years

Mike Lyle

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Jan 6, 2004, 2:41:17 PM1/6/04

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MC <cop...@AMZAPca.inter.net> wrote in message news:<copeSP-1D4D6D....@mail.inter.net>...

Good point: I hope somebody will follow this one up, as I was
interested during my son's skateboarding period to note that the
wheely bits of a skateboard were called "trucks".

Co-Co for now.

Mike.

M. J. Powell

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Jan 6, 2004, 5:19:31 PM1/6/04

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In message <3fa4d950.04010...@posting.google.com>, Mike Lyle
<mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> writes

OK Bo-Bo

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Dr Robin Bignall

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Jan 6, 2004, 7:47:09 PM1/6/04

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From COD10:
truck1
· n.
1 a large road vehicle, used for carrying goods, materials, or troops. Ø
Brit. a railway vehicle for carrying freight, especially a small open one.
Ø a low flat-topped trolley used for moving heavy items.
2 a railway bogie. Ø each of two axle units on a skateboard, to which the
wheels are attached.

--

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Peter Duncanson

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Jan 7, 2004, 7:37:07 AM1/7/04

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On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:47:09 +0000, Dr Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE)
For example:
http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H029_xl.jpg

--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

Mike Lyle

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Jan 7, 2004, 1:43:04 PM1/7/04

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Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message news:<iuunvvktrb5s9muhi...@4ax.com>...
[...]

>
> There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE)
> For example:
> http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H029_xl.jpg

Or sack truck: I have one of these handy vehicles, and would sometimes
find life difficult without it. When I bought it from the local branch
of the Carmarthen Farmers' Co-op, I suddenly noticed, and pointed out
to the attendant staff, the absurdity of my behaviour in *carrying* it
out. British laymen generally referred to the railway ones as
"porters' trolleys".

I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid
four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a
piano: when he was nine, my son was able to move a full freezer from
one end of the house to the other on it. I don't know the proper name
for this hot property.

Mike.

Peter Duncanson

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Jan 7, 2004, 2:14:05 PM1/7/04

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I think that is a "piano trolley".
http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/catalogue/removal_equipment/

The ones I recall were wooden - but that was a few decades ago.

Dr Robin Bignall

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Jan 7, 2004, 6:44:11 PM1/7/04

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You can get things like that with castors, for putting under fridges and
other appliances to make them easily moveable.

Mike Lyle

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Jan 7, 2004, 7:03:15 PM1/7/04

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Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message news:<memovv41h4bednr0v...@4ax.com>...

That's right: the one we had at school was made of wood, too. Mine has
the wheels nearer the corners, and has a T-bar handle as long as the
trolley itself.

Mike.

Donna Richoux

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Jan 7, 2004, 7:03:59 PM1/7/04

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Dr Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
> >On 7 Jan 2004 10:43:04 -0800, mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote:
> >
> >>Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote

> >>> There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE)

> >>> For example:
> >>> http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H029_xl.jpg
> >>
> >>Or sack truck: I have one of these handy vehicles, and would sometimes
> >>find life difficult without it. When I bought it from the local branch
> >>of the Carmarthen Farmers' Co-op, I suddenly noticed, and pointed out
> >>to the attendant staff, the absurdity of my behaviour in *carrying* it
> >>out. British laymen generally referred to the railway ones as
> >>"porters' trolleys".
> >>
> >>I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid
> >>four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a
> >>piano: when he was nine, my son was able to move a full freezer from
> >>one end of the house to the other on it. I don't know the proper name
> >>for this hot property.
> >>
> >I think that is a "piano trolley".
> >http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/catalogue/removal_equipment/
> >
> >The ones I recall were wooden - but that was a few decades ago.
>
> You can get things like that with castors, for putting under fridges and
> other appliances to make them easily moveable.

I would call a flat wheeled frame or platform like that, for heavy
items, a "dolly." I grew up calling the vertical "hand truck" a "dolly,"
too, until I was set straight some time later, probably in Boston.

I looked through Google Images for a dolly -- do you know how many
pictures of Dolly Parton and Dolly the Sheep there are on the Web?
Anyway, I saw an assortment of sizes and shapes of carrier-type dollies
on there, such as this one, which happens to have a handle:
http://www.mediagab.it/filmmaker/Dolly.GIF

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

Bob Martin

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Jan 7, 2004, 2:23:06 PM1/7/04

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Mike Lyle wrote:

> I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid
> four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a
> piano: when he was nine, my son was able to move a full freezer from
> one end of the house to the other on it. I don't know the proper name
> for this hot property.

Something matching this description arrived with an Indesit washing
machine which we bought in the late 70s.

Bob Martin

Bill Schnakenberg

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Jan 7, 2004, 8:00:47 PM1/7/04

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You should have googled "flat dolly". You definitely would not get Dolly
Parton.
The one I have in the garage is wooden with carpeted cross pieces and
swiveling castors on the corners, each of which vies to be the leader. It
takes a great deal of talent to get it to roll straight through narrow
hallways without hitting the walls.

Mike Lyle

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Jan 8, 2004, 8:33:53 AM1/8/04

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Bill Schnakenberg <will...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message news:<3Z1Lb.47283$fs6....@news02.roc.ny>...

> Donna Richoux wrote:
> > Dr Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On 7 Jan 2004 10:43:04 -0800, mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote:

[...]

> >>>>
> >>>>I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid
> >>>>four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a

> >>>>piano: [...]

> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>I think that is a "piano trolley".
> >>>http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/catalogue/removal_equipment/
> >>>
> >>>The ones I recall were wooden - but that was a few decades ago.
> >>
> >>You can get things like that with castors, for putting under fridges and
> >>other appliances to make them easily moveable.
> >
> >
> > I would call a flat wheeled frame or platform like that, for heavy

> > items, a "dolly." [...]

> The one I have in the garage is wooden with carpeted cross pieces and
> swiveling castors on the corners, each of which vies to be the leader. It
> takes a great deal of talent to get it to roll straight through narrow
> hallways without hitting the walls.

Ah, maybe you should de-swivel the castors at the back: it must be
possible. Mine has castors only at the front, or towing-handle end,
and it's pretty easy to steer.

Mike.

Bill Schnakenberg

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Jan 8, 2004, 10:36:37 AM1/8/04

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Mike Lyle wrote:

I've thought about that often, but the thought usually hits me when I go to
use it. After I am finished with it, I don't think about it until the next
time I need it.

Ray Heindl

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Jan 8, 2004, 4:12:16 PM1/8/04

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Bill Schnakenberg <will...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

> You should have googled "flat dolly". You definitely would not get
> Dolly Parton.
> The one I have in the garage is wooden with carpeted cross pieces
> and swiveling castors on the corners, each of which vies to be the
> leader. It takes a great deal of talent to get it to roll straight
> through narrow hallways without hitting the walls.

I'd call that a "furniture mover's dolly" (or maybe "movers'") if I
wanted to distinguish it from a hand truck. I presume that all four
wheels caster to allow the mover to rotate it in place before removing
the load from it. Or maybe they were designed by the painters' union
to encourage people to scrape up their walls.

--
Ray Heindl
(remove the Xs to reply)

Ray Heindl

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Jan 8, 2004, 4:13:09 PM1/8/04

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Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com> wrote:

The last washing machine I saw delivered arrived on a hand truck
equipped with little caterpillar treads along the back, to allow it to
negotiate stairs without banging down on each step. Does anyone know
if such a thing has a name other than "hand truck"?

Peter Duncanson

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Jan 8, 2004, 7:26:29 PM1/8/04

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Looking at some UK websites it seems that hand trucks designed for stair
climbing are called 'stairclimber trucks'.
The most common type appears to be not the caterpillar version but one in
which each of the two wheels is replaced by three wheels in a star
formation.
http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H015_xl.jpg

One supplier describes trucks with caterpillar tracks as 'caterpillar
trucks'. That could be very confusing!
http://www.tenpoint.co.uk/acatalog/Caterpillar_Truck.html

Dr Robin Bignall

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Jan 8, 2004, 7:35:52 PM1/8/04

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I've got a waist-height tray thing on castors like that, one set
de-swiveled, with a car battery, trickle charger, tools and jump leads
"just in case". It's very heavy. Invariably I pull the thing from the wrong
end when trying to move it, and end up with chaos in the garage. The end of
the thing with the swiveling castors just goes where it wants to.

Skitt

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Jan 8, 2004, 9:12:59 PM1/8/04

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Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
> (Mike Lyle) wrote:

>> Bill Schnakenberg wrote
>>> Donna Richoux wrote:
>>>> Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>>>>> Peter Duncanson wrote:
>>>>>> (Mike Lyle) wrote:

>>>>>>> I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid
>>>>>>> four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take
>>>>>>> a piano: [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that is a "piano trolley".
>>>>>> http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/catalogue/removal_equipment/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ones I recall were wooden - but that was a few decades ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can get things like that with castors, for putting under
>>>>> fridges and other appliances to make them easily moveable.
>>>>
>>>> I would call a flat wheeled frame or platform like that, for heavy
>>>> items, a "dolly." [...]
>>>
>>> The one I have in the garage is wooden with carpeted cross pieces
>>> and swiveling castors on the corners, each of which vies to be the
>>> leader. It takes a great deal of talent to get it to roll straight
>>> through narrow hallways without hitting the walls.
>>
>> Ah, maybe you should de-swivel the castors at the back: it must be
>> possible. Mine has castors only at the front, or towing-handle end,
>> and it's pretty easy to steer.
>>
> I've got a waist-height tray thing on castors like that, one set
> de-swiveled, with a car battery, trickle charger, tools and jump leads
> "just in case". It's very heavy. Invariably I pull the thing from the
> wrong end when trying to move it, and end up with chaos in the
> garage. The end of the thing with the swiveling castors just goes
> where it wants to.

OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an alternate
(secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus not the usual one?

As far as I know, it is not a valid spelling in the USA for the item being
discussed.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Bill Schnakenberg

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Jan 8, 2004, 11:13:14 PM1/8/04

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Skitt wrote:

I've always spelled it castor, although I don't write it often.

From the on-line AHD
http://www.bartleby.com/61/75/C0147500.html

SYLLABICATION: cast·er
PRONUNCIATION: kstr
NOUN: 1. One that casts: a caster of nets. 2. also cas·tor ( kstr) A small
wheel on a swivel, attached under a piece of furniture or other heavy
object to make it easier to move. 3. also castor a. A small bottle, pot, or
shaker for holding a condiment. b. A stand for a set of condiment containers.

Dr Robin Bignall

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Jan 9, 2004, 7:17:33 AM1/9/04

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From COD10:
castor1 /"kA;st@/ (also caster)
· n.
1 each of a set of small swivelling wheels fixed to the legs or base of a
heavy piece of furniture.
2 a small container with holes in the top, used for sprinkling the
contents.
– ORIGIN C17: orig. a var. of caster.

Daniel James

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Jan 9, 2004, 7:54:24 AM1/9/04

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In article news:<btl2ne$8eu11$1...@ID-61580.news.uni-berlin.de>, Skitt
wrote:

> OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an alternate
> (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus not the usual
> one?

No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt either way,
but is more usually "castor" than "caster".

NSOED says:

: caster n. In branch II also (& more usual in sense 4) -or. LME.
: [f. CAST v. + -ER 1.]
: I
: 1 A person who casts something. LME.
: 2 A Monotype machine for casting type. E20.
: II
: 3 A small bottle, jar, etc., with a perforated top, used for
: sprinkling pepper, sugar, etc., on food (in pl. sometimes
: including cruets for vinegar, oil, etc.). L17.
: 4 A small swivel wheel on the leg of a chair, table, etc. M18.
:
: Comb.: castor action the swivelling of vehicle wheels to ensure
: stability;
: caster sugar finely granulated white sugar.

(Castor as in oil, and /castor/ the beaver have separate entries.)

Incidentally, the NSOED also describes the use of "alternate" to mean
"alternative" (as you have done) as "rare" and "chiefly N.American" - but
perhaps you knew that.

Cheers,
Daniel.

Daniel James

Mike Lyle

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Jan 10, 2004, 6:49:02 AM1/10/04

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Tony Cooper <tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com> wrote in message news:<66uuvv0l5dibgv1pl...@4ax.com>...

But I think that *is* a caster: you use it to cast stuff. (Note
irritating and irrational tendency of British cookery books to use
"castor" for the sugar you put in one.)

Mike.

Wood Avens

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Jan 10, 2004, 9:09:51 AM1/10/04

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On 10 Jan 2004 03:49:02 -0800, mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle)
wrote:

>(Note

>irritating and irrational tendency of British cookery books to use
>"castor" for the sugar you put in one.)

The usual BrE term, and spelling, is "caster sugar", not "castor".

--

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove number to reply

Dr Robin Bignall

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Jan 10, 2004, 11:17:48 AM1/10/04

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Cruets.

cruet /"kru;It/
· n.
1 a small container for salt, pepper, oil, or vinegar for use at a dining
table. Ø (also cruet stand) Brit. a stand holding such containers.
2 (in church use) a small container for the wine or water to be used in the
celebration of the Eucharist.
– ORIGIN ME: from Anglo-Norman Fr., dimin. of OFr. crue ‘pot’, from Old
Saxon krGka; rel. to crock2.

Ray Heindl

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Jan 10, 2004, 4:44:26 PM1/10/04

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Tony Cooper <tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com> wrote:

The fridge mostly, except the ketchup, which I keep in a cupboard, and
the salt and pepper, which live on a shelf.

Mike Lyle

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Jan 10, 2004, 5:42:26 PM1/10/04

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Wood Avens <woodav...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message news:<r4vvvvgbl42k5f3vo...@4ax.com>...

> On 10 Jan 2004 03:49:02 -0800, mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle)
> wrote:
>
> >(Note
> >irritating and irrational tendency of British cookery books to use
> >"castor" for the sugar you put in one.)
>
> The usual BrE term, and spelling, is "caster sugar", not "castor".

Katy, I wish that were true: but check through the cookery writers.

Mike.

mUs1Ka

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Jan 10, 2004, 6:12:26 PM1/10/04

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From AskOxford
Which is correct 'caster sugar' or 'castor sugar'?

Both are right. The spelling castor sugar used to be the prevailing one, but
caster sugar seems to be more usual now, perhaps because it is used by some
sugar manufacturers on their packaging.

UKGoogle "castor sugar" - 1440

UKGoogle "caster sugar" - 8750

m.

Frances Kemmish

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Jan 10, 2004, 7:22:09 PM1/10/04

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Dr Robin Bignall wrote:

When my aunt and uncle got married in 1945, they received 11 (eleven)
cruet sets as wedding presents.

--
Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

Robert Bannister

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Jan 10, 2004, 7:54:04 PM1/10/04

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Ray Heindl wrote:

And beavers and a Roman god.

--
Rob Bannister

Tony Cooper

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Jan 10, 2004, 8:56:41 PM1/10/04

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On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:44:26 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net>
wrote:

>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:37:01 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Daniel James <waste...@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:
>>>> No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt
>>>> either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster".
>>>
>>>This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" in
>>>the US, except when referring to the oil.
>>
>> Good Lord, Man! What do you keep your condiments in?
>
>The fridge mostly, except the ketchup, which I keep in a cupboard, and
>the salt and pepper, which live on a shelf.

Add a little class to your home from:
http://www.grantique.com/p38-1215-heavy-sterling-silver-cut-glass-sugar-caster.html

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Jan 12, 2004, 1:04:01 AM1/12/04

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On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:15:21 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net>
wrote:

>mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote:

>
>> Charles Riggs <CHA...@aircom.net> wrote in message
>> news:<97n100pggsepn4p38...@4ax.com>...

>>> I hope you're joking. Ketchup should be kept in the fridge after

>>> opening, [...]
>>
>> Good heavens! I've just checked, and Mr Heinz agrees with you. We
>> keep it in a cupboard, without ill effect. The stuff is quite acid
>> enough to look after itself -- even back-of-the-cupboard survivors
>> one didn't know were there never seem to be mouldy.
>
>My Heinz bottle doesn't say anything about refrigeration; apparently
>the Rightpondian labeling is different from the Left. Never having
>seen ketchup go bad, I don't feel any need to mend my ways.

Then feast your eyes on this, from the same web we all know is
infallible:

To find out the bottling date on Heinz Ketchup, look at the cap to
find a four-digit number. The first three digits indicate the day,
while the fourth digit indicates the year. Unopened bottles of ketchup
can be stored up to one year in a cool, dry place. Once opened, you
can store it in a cool environment out of the sun for about a month.
For longer shelf life after opening, refrigerate. Refer to expiration
dates on the container. Storing opened ketchup in a heated environment
such as in direct sunlight or in a kitchen that is constantly hot can
invite fermentation which can actually cause a minor explosion when
opening the container. The explosion makes the ketchup squirt out when
opened which probably won't be harmful to you, but it will make quite
a mess and stain your clothing. Discard any ketchup that shows signs
of fermentation. Exposure to direct sunlight will also darken ketchup.
To keep homemade ketchup's bright red color, wrap jars in tin foil.
One 16-ounce bottle will yield 1-2/3 cups of ketchup.

Evan Kirshenbaum

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Jan 12, 2004, 3:33:16 AM1/12/04

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Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> writes:

> Ray Heindl wrote:
>
> > This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor"
> > in the US, except when referring to the oil.
>
> And beavers and a Roman god.

And a Stone.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Well, if you can't believe what you
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |read in a comic book, what can you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |believe?!
| Bullwinkle J. Moose
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Mike Lyle

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Jan 12, 2004, 5:45:22 AM1/12/04

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Charles Riggs <CHA...@aircom.net> wrote in message news:<dbb400dtaroj8q8rg...@4ax.com>...

> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:15:21 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net>
> wrote:
>
> >mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote:
> >
> >> Charles Riggs <CHA...@aircom.net> wrote in message
> >> news:<97n100pggsepn4p38...@4ax.com>...
>
> >>> I hope you're joking. Ketchup should be kept in the fridge after
> >>> opening, [...]
> >>
> >> Good heavens! I've just checked, and Mr Heinz agrees with you. We
> >> keep it in a cupboard, without ill effect. The stuff is quite acid
> >> enough to look after itself -- even back-of-the-cupboard survivors
> >> one didn't know were there never seem to be mouldy.
> >
> >My Heinz bottle doesn't say anything about refrigeration; apparently
> >the Rightpondian labeling is different from the Left. Never having
> >seen ketchup go bad, I don't feel any need to mend my ways.
>
> Then feast your eyes on this, from the same web we all know is
> infallible:

[...amusingly scary stuff snipped...]

Ray, I had to take off the varifocals to read it, but the small print
on the neck label of the British version says "After opening,
refrigerate..."

Mike.

M. J. Powell

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Jan 12, 2004, 6:13:31 AM1/12/04

to

In message <dbb400dtaroj8q8rg...@4ax.com>, Charles Riggs
<CHA...@aircom.net> writes

Charles, the cap on my bottle says:

12 - 2004
2763000ECF2

Which can't be right, since today is the 12th and the bottle has only
about 1" left.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Mike Lyle

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Jan 12, 2004, 1:44:09 PM1/12/04

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Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message news:<1xq5o9...@hpl.hp.com>...

> Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> writes:
>
> > Ray Heindl wrote:
> >
> > > This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor"
> > > in the US, except when referring to the oil.
> >
> > And beavers and a Roman god.
>
> And a Stone.
>

What, as in the Australian expression "castor furs tone"?

Mike.

Ray Heindl

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Jan 12, 2004, 4:42:41 PM1/12/04

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mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote:

> Charles Riggs <CHA...@aircom.net> wrote in message
> news:<dbb400dtaroj8q8rg...@4ax.com>...
>> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:15:21 -0000, Ray Heindl
>> <rahe...@xnccwx.net> wrote:

>> >My Heinz bottle doesn't say anything about refrigeration;
>> >apparently the Rightpondian labeling is different from the Left.
>> >Never having seen ketchup go bad, I don't feel any need to mend
>> >my ways.
>>
>> Then feast your eyes on this, from the same web we all know is
>> infallible:
> [...amusingly scary stuff snipped...]
>
> Ray, I had to take off the varifocals to read it, but the small
> print on the neck label of the British version says "After
> opening, refrigerate..."

Nope, not a word about it, on either of my two bottles, even with my
glasses off. Maybe Heinz figures (probably correctly) that nobody
reads the labels on ketchup bottles anyway.

Ray Heindl

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Jan 12, 2004, 4:43:10 PM1/12/04

to

Charles Riggs <CHA...@aircom.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:15:21 -0000, Ray Heindl
> <rahe...@xnccwx.net> wrote:

>>My Heinz bottle doesn't say anything about refrigeration;
>>apparently the Rightpondian labeling is different from the Left.
>>Never having seen ketchup go bad, I don't feel any need to mend my
>>ways.
>
> Then feast your eyes on this, from the same web we all know is
> infallible:
>
> To find out the bottling date on Heinz Ketchup, look at the cap to
> find a four-digit number. The first three digits indicate the day,
> while the fourth digit indicates the year.

My two bottles have codes of FR2H09E and FR3H25W, so I apparently have
no way to find out when they were made.

Where did you find this? Maybe the same site would explain these
heiroglyphics.

> Unopened bottles of
> ketchup can be stored up to one year in a cool, dry place. Once
> opened, you can store it in a cool environment out of the sun for
> about a month. For longer shelf life after opening, refrigerate.
> Refer to expiration dates on the container. Storing opened ketchup
> in a heated environment such as in direct sunlight or in a kitchen
> that is constantly hot can invite fermentation which can actually
> cause a minor explosion when opening the container. The explosion
> makes the ketchup squirt out when opened which probably won't be
> harmful to you, but it will make quite a mess and stain your
> clothing.

The only time I've had ketchup spurt that way was when a bottle stored
in the fridge was left out to warm to room temperature before being
opened -- another reason to store it in the cupboard.

> Discard any ketchup that shows signs of fermentation.
> Exposure to direct sunlight will also darken ketchup. To keep
> homemade ketchup's bright red color, wrap jars in tin foil. One
> 16-ounce bottle will yield 1-2/3 cups of ketchup.

Aha, there's the key: "tin foil". Whoever wrote this probably lines
his hat with the stuff.

At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call
aluminum foil "tin foil"?

Ray Heindl

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Jan 12, 2004, 4:43:24 PM1/12/04

to

Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:

> Mike Lyle wrote:
>> Good heavens! I've just checked, and Mr Heinz agrees with you. We
>> keep it in a cupboard, without ill effect. The stuff is quite
>> acid enough to look after itself -- even back-of-the-cupboard
>> survivors one didn't know were there never seem to be mouldy.
>
> Looks as if I'll have to check the bottle too. Here in Australia,
> I keep all sorts of things in the fridge that, allegedly, I
> shouldn't: bread, jam, red wine... but my Heinz ketchup remains in
> the cupboard - so far with no ill effects.

I've heard, but never believed, the bit about not keeping bread in the
fridge. But what's wrong with keeping jam there? Won't it eventually
go moldy if kept at room temp after opening?

Evan Kirshenbaum

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Jan 12, 2004, 5:03:10 PM1/12/04

to

mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) writes:

> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote

> > Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> writes:
> >
> > > Ray Heindl wrote:
> > >
> > > > This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor"
> > > > in the US, except when referring to the oil.
> > >
> > > And beavers and a Roman god.
> >
> > And a Stone.
> >
> What, as in the Australian expression "castor furs tone"?

http://tinyurl.com/2pkdc
<URL:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/
034532451X/qid=1073944820/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/
102-5040696-2031363?v=glance&s=books>

Originally published in 1952, when Mick Jagger was nine years old.

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Jan 12, 2004, 8:42:37 PM1/12/04

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On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:37:07 +0000, Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE)
> For example:
> http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H029_xl.jpg

Some US librarians refer to a book cart as a "truck" (or "book truck"):

http://www.schooloutfitters.com/catalog/product_info/products_id/PRO99

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

Aaron J. Dinkin

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Jan 12, 2004, 8:44:10 PM1/12/04

to

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:03:59 +0100, Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:

> I grew up calling the vertical "hand truck" a "dolly," too, until I was
> set straight some time later, probably in Boston.

I'm from Boston and wouldn't call a vertical hand truck a dolly, but I
have heard it so called in Boston.

Aaron J. Dinkin

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Jan 12, 2004, 8:46:37 PM1/12/04

to

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:37:01 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net> wrote:

> Daniel James <waste...@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:
>
>> In article news:<btl2ne$8eu11$1...@ID-61580.news.uni-berlin.de>,
>> Skitt wrote:
>>> OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an
>>> alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus
>>> not the usual one?
>>

>> No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt
>> either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster".
>

> This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" in
> the US, except when referring to the oil.

Not necessarily. I use "castor" for the wheelies. But I first encountered
the word in the word of an author of whose pondiality I'm uncertain, so
that doesn't prove anything.

Aaron J. Dinkin

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Jan 12, 2004, 8:50:56 PM1/12/04

to

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:43:10 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net> wrote:

> At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call
> aluminum foil "tin foil"?

Doesn't look like. Google gives a ratio of about 5:1 in favor of
"aluminum". I say both, but "aluminum" more frequently.

...I guess that means that it's possible that most people _do_ call it
"tin foil", as long as most people do so less often than they call it
"aluminum foil".

Richard Maurer

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Jan 12, 2004, 10:40:39 PM1/12/04

to

<< [Mike Lyle] (re Ketchup)

Ray, I had to take off the varifocals to read it, but the small print
on the neck label of the British version says "After opening,
refrigerate..."

[end quote] >>

<< [Rob Bannister]

My Australian version too. (I also had difficulty in seeing the small
print, which no doubt why I had never noticed it before.)

[end quote] >>

<< [Rob Bannister]

Nope, not a word about it, on either of my two bottles, even with my
glasses off. Maybe Heinz figures (probably correctly) that nobody
reads the labels on ketchup bottles anyway.

[end quote] >>

My two different types of Trader Joe's ketchup show
"Refrigerate after opening"
in big letters just above the ingredients.

-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Charles Riggs

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Jan 13, 2004, 1:48:54 AM1/13/04

to

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:43:10 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net>
wrote:

>At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call
>aluminum foil "tin foil"?

All red-blooded Americans do so. Yes, I know, it isn't made from tin,
but that is what it is traditionally called.

Charles Riggs

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Jan 13, 2004, 1:48:55 AM1/13/04

to

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:43:24 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net>
wrote:

>I've heard, but never believed, the bit about not keeping bread in the
>fridge.

I don't believe it either. I find that bread lasts slightly longer if
kept there. A bread box might be better, I don't know for I've never
used one.

> But what's wrong with keeping jam there? Won't it eventually
>go moldy if kept at room temp after opening?

My marmalade never has, although it will get runny if I don't use all
of it within about a month. In the fridge, it becomes too viscous to
be spreadable, so that's not an option for me.

Chris Malcolm may have access to something better, but the best I've
found here, by far, is Baxters Luxury Thick Cut Seville Orange
Marmalade, by the way. I just noticed the cap says refrigerate after
opening. I'm going to pretend I didn't read that.

Tony Cooper

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Jan 13, 2004, 2:06:51 AM1/13/04

to

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:48:54 +0000, Charles Riggs <CHA...@aircom.net>
wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:43:10 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net>
>wrote:
>
>
>>At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call
>>aluminum foil "tin foil"?
>
>All red-blooded Americans do so. Yes, I know, it isn't made from tin,
>but that is what it is traditionally called.

You're supposed to keep that under your hat.

Daniel James

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Jan 13, 2004, 9:12:31 AM1/13/04

to

In article news:<Xns946EAA1A...@216.168.3.44>, Ray Heindl
wrote:

> At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call
> aluminum foil "tin foil"?

At a guess, because the first domestic foils *were* made of tin,
but when it became possible to manufacture thin foils of aluminium
cheaply and on a large scale alumnium came to be used instead.

In much the same way that "tin cans" were once sheet steel sealed
and lined with tin to prevent corrosion of the steel (and
consequent contamiation of the contents) they are now made or
brazed or welded steel (or of aluminium, in the case of many tinned
drinks) lined with polythene.

I recall a time when, as a Chemistry undergraduate, I did an
electon microscopy practical in the Metallurgy Department:

Demonstrator: What are you doing?
Me: preparing a sample of tin-foil for the electron microscope.
Demonstrator: That's not tin foil, that's aluminium.
Me: Of course! What else would you make tin-foil out of?
Demonstrator: Argh! Chemists!

Cheers,
Daniel.

Daniel James

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Jan 13, 2004, 9:12:31 AM1/13/04

to

In article news:<btvied$33ti$4...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
> Some US librarians refer to a book cart as a "truck" (or "book truck"):
>
> http://www.schooloutfitters.com/catalog/product_info/products_id/PRO99

Interesting. Those are quite clearly neither carts nor trucks but
"trollies". <smile>

Cheers,
Daniel.

Aaron J. Dinkin

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Jan 13, 2004, 11:25:27 AM1/13/04

to

Not carts, eh? You must have a much more restrictive definition of "cart"
than I do: to me, a cart is any wheeled conveyance (other than a
wheelbarrow) that gets loaded up with cargo of some sort and then pushed or
pulled to its destination. On the other hand, I have a more restrictive
definition of "trolley", which I use only to refer to a particular kind
of light rail vehicle.

Ray Heindl

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Jan 13, 2004, 4:29:09 PM1/13/04

to

Charles Riggs <CHA...@aircom.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:43:24 -0000, Ray Heindl
> <rahe...@xnccwx.net> wrote:
>
>>I've heard, but never believed, the bit about not keeping bread in
>>the fridge.
>
> I don't believe it either. I find that bread lasts slightly longer
> if kept there. A bread box might be better, I don't know for I've
> never used one.

That's my impression too, but I've never conducted a scienterrific
test. I vaguely recall reading that refrigeration caused something in
the bread to crystallize more rapidly, causing it to go stale sooner.
But freezing was said to be fine. Go figure.

>> But what's wrong with keeping jam there? Won't it eventually
>>go moldy if kept at room temp after opening?
>
> My marmalade never has, although it will get runny if I don't use
> all of it within about a month. In the fridge, it becomes too
> viscous to be spreadable, so that's not an option for me.
>
> Chris Malcolm may have access to something better, but the best
> I've found here, by far, is Baxters Luxury Thick Cut Seville
> Orange Marmalade, by the way. I just noticed the cap says
> refrigerate after opening. I'm going to pretend I didn't read
> that.

I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know what
happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature. It would
probably be too runny, but whether it would go bad is beyond my ken.

Robert Bannister

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Jan 13, 2004, 7:34:00 PM1/13/04

to

Richard Maurer wrote:

> << [Mike Lyle] (re Ketchup)
> Ray, I had to take off the varifocals to read it, but the small print
> on the neck label of the British version says "After opening,
> refrigerate..."
> [end quote] >>
>
>
>
> << [Rob Bannister]
> My Australian version too. (I also had difficulty in seeing the small
> print, which no doubt why I had never noticed it before.)
> [end quote] >>
>
>
>
> << [Rob Bannister]
> Nope, not a word about it, on either of my two bottles, even with my
> glasses off. Maybe Heinz figures (probably correctly) that nobody
> reads the labels on ketchup bottles anyway.
> [end quote] >>

Hey! I didn't write that. In fact, after investigation, I specifically
said that I had found the warning.

--
Rob Bannister

Richard Maurer

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Jan 13, 2004, 10:31:05 PM1/13/04

to

<< [Rob Bannister]
Nope, not a word about it, on either of my two bottles, even with my
glasses off. Maybe Heinz figures (probably correctly) that nobody
reads the labels on ketchup bottles anyway.
[end quote] >>

<< [Rob Bannister]

Hey! I didn't write that. In fact, after investigation, I specifically
said that I had found the warning.

[end quote] >>

Oops. The first should have been attributed to Ray Heindl

Mark Browne

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Jan 14, 2004, 6:23:09 AM1/14/04

to

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004, in alt.usage.english, Ray Heindl
<rahe...@xnccwx.net> writes

>I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know what
>happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature. It would
>probably be too runny, but whether it would go bad is beyond my ken.

Isn't the whole point of a preserve to preserve the fruit for a
(relatively) long time? Preserves existed before refrigerators were
common.
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected

Daniel James

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Jan 14, 2004, 7:05:21 AM1/14/04

to

In article news:<bu165n$3s72$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
> > Interesting. Those are quite clearly neither carts nor trucks but
> > "trollies". <smile>
>
> Not carts, eh?

Oh, please! Note the <smile>.

I'm surprised you're picking me up on "cart" - I'd have thought that
cries of "oh yes they are trucks" were more likely.

> You must have a much more restrictive definition of "cart"
> than I do: to me, a cart is any wheeled conveyance (other than a
> wheelbarrow) that gets loaded up with cargo of some sort and then
> pushed or pulled to its destination.

I think this may be a pondian thing. I'm familiar with the "hand cart"
use that you outline, but I've seldom heard it used. "Cart" on it's own
conjures up "horse and cart" meanings, for me; and of course it's used in
composites such as "dustcart" (which you probably call a "garbage
truck"?)

"Barrow", on the other hand, would include any hand-propelled wheeled
vehicle - such as a wheelbarrow (with one wheel) or a costermonger's or
market trader's barrow (which might have two or even four wheels).

> On the other hand, I have a more restrictive definition of "trolley",
> which I use only to refer to a particular kind of light rail vehicle.

Well, I meant trolley in the sense of "tea-trolley", which is exactly
what the - er - items illustrated on that webpage look like to me (apart
from the garish colours - I'll have mine in natural wood, please). The
word "trolley" is much richer than that, though.

NSOED:

: trolley n. & v. Also trolly. E19.
: [Of dial. origin, prob. f. TROLL v. & n.2]
:
: A n. 1 Any of various kinds of low cart adapted for a specific
: purpose; /esp./ a street-barrow. /local./ E19.
:
: 2 A low truck, usu. without sides or ends, running on a railway,
: or a track in a factory etc. M19.
:
: 3 More fully /trolley-wheel/. A grooved metallic pulley receiving
: current from an overhead electric wire and conveying this by a pole
: etc. to the motor of a trolley bus or trolley- car. Also /gen./, any
: pulley running along an overhead track. L19.
: b /ellipt./ A trolley-car (US). Also, a trolley bus. L19.
:
: 4 A small table, stand, or basket on wheels or castors for serving
: food, transporting shopping, luggage, etc.; spec. = SUPERMARKET
: trolley. M20.
: ... [examples & specific cases snipped]

So, a "trolley" can be a "cart" and can be a "barrow" and can be a
"truck" ... but the things in that picture are things *I* consider
better-described by the word "trollies" than any of the others.

(Quite seriously, despite the <smile>.)

Cheers,
Daniel.

Skitt

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Jan 14, 2004, 2:03:41 PM1/14/04

to

Mark Browne wrote:
> Ray Heindl writes

>> I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know what
>> happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature. It would
>> probably be too runny, but whether it would go bad is beyond my ken.
>
> Isn't the whole point of a preserve to preserve the fruit for a
> (relatively) long time? Preserves existed before refrigerators were
> common.

All true, but the preserving grew to be limited in time once the container
was opened. Still does.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area)
... and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
-- Sir Bedevere

Ray Heindl

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Jan 14, 2004, 4:36:32 PM1/14/04

to

"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Mark Browne wrote:
>> Ray Heindl writes
>
>>> I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know
>>> what happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature.
>>> It would probably be too runny, but whether it would go bad is
>>> beyond my ken.
>>
>> Isn't the whole point of a preserve to preserve the fruit for a
>> (relatively) long time? Preserves existed before refrigerators
>> were common.
>
> All true, but the preserving grew to be limited in time once the
> container was opened. Still does.

Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents, which
I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal. So the jelly would
have to be pretty stable to avoid turning yucky (the technical term)
over the years. I presume it's the high sugar content that keeps the
nasties from growing.

Also, modern preserves are probably designed more to taste good than to
actually preserve anything. It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't as
shelf-stable as preserves were back when they were intended to prevent
scurvy rather than please the palate.

Skitt

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Jan 14, 2004, 4:46:31 PM1/14/04

to

Ray Heindl wrote:

> "Skitt" wrote:
>> Mark Browne wrote:
>>> Ray Heindl writes

>>>> I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know
>>>> what happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature.
>>>> It would probably be too runny, but whether it would go bad is
>>>> beyond my ken.
>>>
>>> Isn't the whole point of a preserve to preserve the fruit for a
>>> (relatively) long time? Preserves existed before refrigerators
>>> were common.
>>
>> All true, but the preserving grew to be limited in time once the
>> container was opened. Still does.
>
> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents, which
> I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal.

It doesn't? It sure seemed to when my mom did the sealing.

> So the jelly
> would have to be pretty stable to avoid turning yucky (the technical
> term) over the years. I presume it's the high sugar content that
> keeps the nasties from growing.

That too, I suppose.

> Also, modern preserves are probably designed more to taste good than
> to actually preserve anything. It wouldn't surprise me if they
> weren't as shelf-stable as preserves were back when they were
> intended to prevent scurvy rather than please the palate.

They are also put up in jars that seal more easily and more reliably, even
for inexperienced preserve makers.

--
Skitt
It's like Jesus said -- give a man a fish, and he'll know where to come
for fish. Teach a man to fish, and you've destroyed your marketbase.

Default User

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Jan 14, 2004, 5:29:24 PM1/14/04

to

Skitt wrote:
>
> Ray Heindl wrote:

> > Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents, which
> > I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal.
>
> It doesn't? It sure seemed to when my mom did the sealing.

It's not a recommended canning method these days, due to the possibility
of mold growth.

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/how/can_01/prevent_spoilage.html

Brian Rodenborn

Robert Bannister

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Jan 14, 2004, 7:45:16 PM1/14/04

to

Skitt wrote:

> Mark Browne wrote:
>
>>Ray Heindl writes
>
>
>>>I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know what
>>>happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature. It would
>>>probably be too runny, but whether it would go bad is beyond my ken.
>>
>>Isn't the whole point of a preserve to preserve the fruit for a
>>(relatively) long time? Preserves existed before refrigerators were
>>common.
>
>
> All true, but the preserving grew to be limited in time once the container
> was opened. Still does.

Also, in olden days, when houses were cut off for 3 months at a time
with snow, and when fruit was only available in season, preserves and
pickles were vitally important and had to be done right. Nowadays, most
things are available all the year round, but people still like the taste
of preserves and pickles.

The difference is you can put in the fridge, so when, for example, you
make a pickle, you no longer need to use so much salt. I've never had a
commercially produced jam go off - well, I've had some go mouldy - but
strange things have happened with home-made preserves when I kept them
too long.
--
Rob Bannister

Ray Heindl

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Jan 15, 2004, 5:30:03 PM1/15/04

to

"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Ray Heindl wrote:

>> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents,
>> which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal.
>
> It doesn't? It sure seemed to when my mom did the sealing.

But they come unsealed so easily that I wouldn't want to count on its
staying sealed for long. All it takes is a little push on one edge of
the wax, and the disc tips up. At least that's my recollection; your
mileage, as they abbreviate, may vary.

Skitt

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Jan 15, 2004, 5:58:05 PM1/15/04

to

Ray Heindl wrote:

> "Skitt" wrote:
>> Ray Heindl wrote:

>>> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents,
>>> which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal.
>>
>> It doesn't? It sure seemed to when my mom did the sealing.
>
> But they come unsealed so easily that I wouldn't want to count on its
> staying sealed for long. All it takes is a little push on one edge of
> the wax, and the disc tips up. At least that's my recollection; your
> mileage, as they abbreviate, may vary.

Yabbut, why push? Besides, most of my mom's jars also had screw-on lids, as
I recall. They protected the wax from any inadvertent pushes.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Ray Heindl

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Jan 16, 2004, 4:45:01 PM1/16/04

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"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

It seems to me that anything that easy to dislodge by hand would be
easy to dislodge accidentally, by tipping over the jar f'rinstance. I
don't remember what covered the mouth of the jar, possibly a big cap
that had to be pried off with a special tool, or maybe one of those
two-piece screw-on lids.

Skitt

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Jan 16, 2004, 5:06:18 PM1/16/04

to

Ray Heindl wrote:
> "Skitt" wrote:
>> Ray Heindl wrote:
>>> "Skitt" wrote:
>>>> Ray Heindl wrote:

>>>>> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the
>>>>> contents, which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic
>>>>> seal.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't? It sure seemed to when my mom did the sealing.
>>>
>>> But they come unsealed so easily that I wouldn't want to count on
>>> its staying sealed for long. All it takes is a little push on
>>> one edge of the wax, and the disc tips up. At least that's my
>>> recollection; your mileage, as they abbreviate, may vary.
>>
>> Yabbut, why push? Besides, most of my mom's jars also had
>> screw-on lids, as I recall. They protected the wax from any
>> inadvertent pushes.
>
> It seems to me that anything that easy to dislodge by hand would be
> easy to dislodge accidentally, by tipping over the jar f'rinstance.

Now, why would one do that? Good grief, are you clumsy, or something?
Besides, our preserves were kept in a basement pantry where no one messed
around, except to get another jar of the preserves.

> I don't remember what covered the mouth of the jar, possibly a big
> cap that had to be pried off with a special tool, or maybe one of
> those two-piece screw-on lids.

Most of my mom's jars had something like that, I think.

Tony Cooper

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Jan 16, 2004, 7:59:28 PM1/16/04

to

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:45:01 -0000, Ray Heindl <rahe...@xnccwx.net>
wrote:

>"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

My grandmother canned - or rather jarred - and used a layer of
paraffin to seal the contents. The jars, though, were Mason jars with
two-piece lids and rubber seals. The paraffin was dislodged when the
jar was opened for the first time. Until used, the jars stood in rows
in the cool, dark basement.

david56

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Jan 17, 2004, 4:16:06 AM1/17/04

to

tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com spake thus:

> My grandmother canned - or rather jarred - and used a layer of
> paraffin to seal the contents. The jars, though, were Mason jars with
> two-piece lids and rubber seals. The paraffin was dislodged when the
> jar was opened for the first time. Until used, the jars stood in rows
> in the cool, dark basement.

That must surely be "liquid paraffin" in my terms, otherwise the food
would be rather spoilt. Liquid paraffin had a medical use of some
sort, like cod liver oil, but I have no idea what it was made of.

--
David
=====

Daniel James

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Jan 17, 2004, 7:23:41 AM1/17/04

to

In article news:<MPG.1a730db48...@news.cis.dfn.de>, David56
wrote:

> tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com spake thus:
>
> > My grandmother canned - or rather jarred - and used a layer of
> > paraffin to seal the contents.
>

> That must surely be "liquid paraffin" in my terms, otherwise the food
> would be rather spoilt.

No, "paraffin" (used alone) in US usage means what we would call "paraffin
wax". What we call "paraffin" they call "kerosene".

> Liquid paraffin had a medical use of some sort, like cod liver oil,
> but I have no idea what it was made of.

It's a petroluem fraction - like petrol, but consisting of larger and less
volatile molecules. It's a clear liquid with approximately the cosistency
of glycerine (at room temperature, at least).

Cheers,
Daniel.

Donna Richoux

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Jan 17, 2004, 7:54:44 AM1/17/04

to

david56 <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

In the US, paraffin is wax, synthetic wax, as for candles. You buy a box
of the stuff, solid. You melt a chunk of it carefully, as they warned us
it was flammable. We used a double-boiler. You nearly fill the jar with
jam. You pour a layer of (liquid) paraffin over it. It cools into a
solid covering, keeping the air out of the jam. When it comes time to
open, you run a knife-blade around the edge to loosen it, and push-pull
it up. From then on, you covered the glass jar with its own metal lid.
If you used a jar with a narrower mouth, you were in trouble, because
you couldn't get the solid chunk of wax past the opening.

"Paraffin" in the UK is what we call kerosene in the US. I would advise
not pouring kerosene over jam.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

david56

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Jan 17, 2004, 8:52:38 AM1/17/04

to

tr...@euronet.nl spake thus:

Indeed.

So, we have two substances - paraffin/kerosine and paraffin
wax/paraffin. So what was the stuff given to 1950s children as some
sort of medicine, which I remember as "liquid paraffin"? Am I making
this up?

--
David
=====

Peter Duncanson

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Jan 17, 2004, 9:12:10 AM1/17/04

to

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:52:38 -0000, david56 <bass.c...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

No. It is still available, I understand.

We need a chemist to give a proper explanation. However, I think that
Paraffin (sometimes Parafin) is the name for a variety of related
hydrocarbons - ranging from waxy to liquid.

Liquid paraffin is highly refined, and of pharmaceutical grade.

The NODE says:
<quote>
paraffin noun (Brit. paraffin wax) [mass noun] a flammable, whitish,
translucent, waxy solid consisting of a mixture of saturated hydrocarbons,
obtained by distillation from petroleum or shale and used in candles,
cosmetics, polishes, and sealing and waterproofing compounds.
(also paraffin oil or liquid paraffin)
Brit. a colourless, flammable, oily liquid similarly obtained and used as
fuel, especially kerosene.
</quote>
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

Don Aitken

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Jan 17, 2004, 9:28:17 AM1/17/04

to

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:52:38 -0000, david56
<bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

No, it does exist. Daniel James posted about it too. The USP term for
it is "Mineral Oil". Also known as vaseline oil, and various other
names. Its main uses are in the treatment of chronic constipation and
as an ointment; its routine administration to children is now strongly
deprected. "Prolonged use should be avoided", says my pharmacopoeia.
Its use in food has been prohibited since 1966.

--
Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".

Frances Kemmish

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Jan 17, 2004, 9:31:35 AM1/17/04

to

Donna Richoux wrote:

I don't even remember paraffin wax on preserves. The home-made jams and
so on that we were given only had a citcle of waxed or greaseproof paper
directly on top of the jam, and then a circle of cellophane held over
the jar with an elastic band. The first time I saw jam with wax on top
was in Connecticut.

--
Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

david56

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Jan 17, 2004, 9:47:05 AM1/17/04

to

don-a...@freeuk.com spake thus:

I've remembered that it was assumed to be the oily stuff coating
sultanas, currants and the like, which was added to stop them
clumping together. I was taught to wash dried fruit and dry it on a
tea towel when making cakes, to get rid of the oil.

Aha. Dried fruit still comes oiled, but the packet says "vegetable
oil".

--
David
=====

Tony Cooper

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Jan 17, 2004, 10:20:18 AM1/17/04

to

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:54:44 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

>In the US, paraffin is wax, synthetic wax, as for candles. You buy a box
>of the stuff, solid. You melt a chunk of it carefully, as they warned us
>it was flammable. We used a double-boiler. You nearly fill the jar with
>jam. You pour a layer of (liquid) paraffin over it. It cools into a
>solid covering, keeping the air out of the jam. When it comes time to
>open, you run a knife-blade around the edge to loosen it, and push-pull
>it up. From then on, you covered the glass jar with its own metal lid.
>If you used a jar with a narrower mouth, you were in trouble, because
>you couldn't get the solid chunk of wax past the opening.
>

What woman would ever use such a jar? Canning was a
mother-to-daughter learned lore with practicalities part of the lesson
plan.

Tony Cooper

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Jan 17, 2004, 10:37:29 AM1/17/04

to

Since this was a topic of discussion just a few weeks ago, I didn't
think it was necessary to flag it.

david56

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Jan 17, 2004, 11:10:12 AM1/17/04

to

tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com spake thus:

We discussed paraffin/kerosene, but I don't remember considering the
medicinal use of "liquid paraffin".

--
David
=====

Don Aitken

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Jan 17, 2004, 12:05:53 PM1/17/04

to

There is (or was in 1966) an exemption to the prohibition for dried
fruit, but the maximum allowed was 0.5%.