Berk
Ellen Mizzell
points that was mentioned was the tendency for "cunt" to be used
by men about men, rather than by men about women. Now a running
thread in a newspaper diary column has reminded me that "berk", which
to the best of my knowledge is used *only* about men, is in fact rhyming
slang for cunt (Berkely Hunt or Berkshire Hunt).
Odd and odder.
--
Ellen Mizzell
Adrian Clark
And funnily enough, it's (in Britain, anyway) one of those "acceptable
playground names", the sort of word kids can get away with in front of
their teachers, along with "twit". Maybe not many teachers are aware of
its exact origins!
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
Linguafife
In about35 years of teaching secondary pupils in Scotland, I can't rmember
any of them using the term "berk", though it's widely-enough used elsewhere.
But the word "crap" (= shit, from Thomas Crapper, I understand) has become so
current in classrooms that itwould be impossible to eradicate it, and I've
heard colleagues accept it in the classroom as a critical term applied to,
say, a poem the pupil had not responded to with any degree of enthusiasm!
B.S.
-- Linguafife: Residential English Courses in Scotland
Learn English, See Scotland.
Visit: http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/linguafife
Waldo
>A few weeks back there was a thread here about swearing. One of the
>points that was mentioned was the tendency for "cunt" to be used
>by men about men, rather than by men about women. Now a running
>thread in a newspaper diary column has reminded me that "berk", which
>to the best of my knowledge is used *only* about men, is in fact rhyming
>slang for cunt (Berkely Hunt or Berkshire Hunt).
>
>
>
I'd feel happier with your explanation if the word was pronounced
"bark." Have you got any more background/info on the rhyming slang
connection?
--
Waldo
Blessed are the cross-eyed, for they shall see God twice.
Ellen Mizzell
:>Ellen Mizzell <$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
It's not really "my" explanation. I was just repeating what I've
always understood to be the generally accepted explanation, though I'd
forgotten about it until the recent items in the Guardian Diary
reminded me. I was really commenting not on the word's origin
but on its application to men (and apparently to small boys) rather
than to women, possessors of the anatomical article it is alleged to
denote.
I've also wondered from time to time why it's not pronounced "bark",
but perhaps words like "Berkshire" were not pronounced that way by
cockneys at the time rhyming slang flourished?
Here are the relevant paragraphs from the Guardian:
While Paddy Ashdown's interminable swansong drones on, he becomes
the object of controversy among Liberal Democrats in East London.
Bethnal Green councillor John Snooks has been accused of describing
his leader as 'a prat', but denies the charge most vehemently. What he
in fact said, he insists, is that Paddy is a 'berk'. As Boris the
Jackal Johnson himself has confirmed for us, 'berk' is cockney rhyming
slang: the contraction of 'Berkshire hunt'.
(30 March 99)
The debate about the origin of "berk" takes another twist. After we
claimed that it is a contraction of "Berkshire Hunt" - something
confirmed by the notable cockney rhyming slang expert Boris the Jackal
Johnson - Peter Brady wrote to insist that it is in fact contracted
from Berkeley Hunt. Now Barry Norris writes from Swansea. "It sticks
in my throat to say this, but Boris Johnson may be right about
'berk'," he says, citing reference books by Eric Partridge and Julian
Franklyn which state that the 18th-century Berkshire Hunt predates the
Berkeley variant by decades. And there, having relearnt the lesson
that it never pays to argue with the Jackal, the debate must end.
(7 April 99)
The only Partride book I own is Usage & Abusage, which as you might
expect does not make any reference to "berk".
--
Ellen Mizzell
Adrian Clark
> In about35 years of teaching secondary pupils in Scotland, I can't rmember
> any of them using the term "berk", though it's widely-enough used elsewhere.
> But the word "crap" (= shit, from Thomas Crapper, I understand) has become so
> current in classrooms that itwould be impossible to eradicate it, and I've
> heard colleagues accept it in the classroom as a critical term applied to,
> say, a poem the pupil had not responded to with any degree of enthusiasm!
I wondered about "crap". When I was at school (1973-87) it was a word we
just wouldn't dare use in front of a teacher; in fact, I think it was a
few years before I'd even heard of it. I wonder what's next... a Father
Jack-influenced "Feck!", perhaps?
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
KBurton487
Mizzell<$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>A few weeks back there was a thread here about swearing. One of the
>points that was mentioned was the tendency for "cunt" to be used
>by men about men, rather than by men about women. Now a running
>thread in a newspaper diary column has reminded me that "berk", which
>to the best of my knowledge is used *only* about men, is in fact rhyming
>slang for cunt (Berkely Hunt or Berkshire Hunt).
I remember having read that it is in fact a piece of "fake" rhyming slang,
invented by the writers (Galton and Simpson? - my memory fails me here) of the
late 1960s BBC sitcom "Steptoe and Son". Since at that time a genuine one would
not be broadcast they needed to come up with a new, innocuous sounding epithet
which would reflect the cockney habit of casual profanity without actually
giving offence. If that is the case the word entered the language very rapidly-
it was certainly common currency at my school (in Cornwall) by the early 1970s.
Kim Burton
Bertie Wooster
<19990412164913...@ngol06.aol.com>...
<Snip>
>I remember having read that it is in fact a piece of "fake" rhyming slang,
>invented by the writers (Galton and Simpson? - my memory fails me here) of
the
>late 1960s BBC sitcom "Steptoe and Son". Since at that time a genuine one
would
>not be broadcast they needed to come up with a new, innocuous sounding
epithet
>which would reflect the cockney habit of casual profanity without actually
>giving offence. If that is the case the word entered the language very
rapidly-
>it was certainly common currency at my school (in Cornwall) by the early
1970s.
Here's the SOD on the matter:
berk: (slang) also birk, burk(e). Mid 20thC. [Abbrev of Berkeley Hunt.] A
fool.
and:
Berkeley hunt: rhyming slang, Mid 20thC [A hunt in Gloucestershire.] = cunt
The dictionary makes clear that Berkeley is pronounced as the American
university, not as in Barkley.
Bertie
Ellen Mizzell
> Here's the SOD on the matter:
> berk: (slang) also birk, burk(e). Mid 20thC. [Abbrev of Berkeley Hunt.] A
> fool.
They have a strange idea of what constitutes a fool....
--
Ellen Mizzell
Bertie Wooster
>> Here's the SOD on the matter:
>> berk: (slang) also birk, burk(e). Mid 20thC. [Abbrev of Berkeley Hunt.] A
>> fool.
>
>They have a strange idea of what constitutes a fool....
I think the reason is that "fool" is exactly what 99.9% of its users think
it means. I had no idea of its origin till this thread endarkened me.
Bertie
Ellen Mizzell
Such is life. Shade is on the brightest wing and dust forbids
the birds to sing.
--
Ellen Mizzell
John Davies
<kburt...@aol.com> writes
>In article <7ekh9h$hj$1...@tictac.demon.co.uk>, Ellen
>Mizzell<$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>A few weeks back there was a thread here about swearing. One of the
>>points that was mentioned was the tendency for "cunt" to be used
>>by men about men, rather than by men about women. Now a running
>>thread in a newspaper diary column has reminded me that "berk", which
>>to the best of my knowledge is used *only* about men, is in fact rhyming
>>slang for cunt (Berkely Hunt or Berkshire Hunt).
>
>invented by the writers (Galton and Simpson? - my memory fails me here) of the
>late 1960s BBC sitcom "Steptoe and Son". Since at that time a genuine one would
>not be broadcast they needed to come up with a new, innocuous sounding epithet
>which would reflect the cockney habit of casual profanity without actually
>giving offence. If that is the case the word entered the language very rapidly-
>it was certainly common currency at my school (in Cornwall) by the early 1970s.
Partridge [1] Dates it to ca 1930, citing its appearance in print in
1936. But he goes on to say that it was scarcely used until its frequent
occurrence in "Steptoe & Son".
Both Partridge and NSOED derive it from "Berkeley Hunt", which is
apparently the name of a hunt in Gloucestershire. But Partridge also
mentions a claim by Julian Franklyn (who wrote a book about rhyming
slang) that "Berkshire Hunt" is the older form, dating from the mid
C19th (but with a question mark). We shall probably never know.
Incidentally, "Berkeleys" is apparently C19th slang for a woman's
breasts. It possibly derives from the Romany word for breast,"berk" (or
"burk"), plural "berkia". Not a lot of people know that: I certainly
didn't until I saw it just now in Partridge.
[1] Paul BEALE (ed). A Concise dictionary of slang and unconventional
English, from A Dictionary of slang and unconventional English, by Eric
Partridge. Routledge, 1989. 0 415 06352 3.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Waldo
>Partridge [1] Dates it to ca 1930, citing its appearance in print in
>1936. But he goes on to say that it was scarcely used until its frequent
>occurrence in "Steptoe & Son".
>
>Both Partridge and NSOED derive it from "Berkeley Hunt", which is
>apparently the name of a hunt in Gloucestershire. But Partridge also
>mentions a claim by Julian Franklyn (who wrote a book about rhyming
>slang) that "Berkshire Hunt" is the older form, dating from the mid
>C19th (but with a question mark). We shall probably never know.
>
>Incidentally, "Berkeleys" is apparently C19th slang for a woman's
>breasts. It possibly derives from the Romany word for breast,"berk" (or
>"burk"), plural "berkia". Not a lot of people know that: I certainly
>didn't until I saw it just now in Partridge.
>
>[1] Paul BEALE (ed). A Concise dictionary of slang and unconventional
>English, from A Dictionary of slang and unconventional English, by Eric
>Partridge. Routledge, 1989. 0 415 06352 3.
>
Thanks for that John. The Romany reference is particularly interesting
because it would seem that there could be a straightforward connection.
Certainly the present day meaning of berk would seem to owe more to
"tit" than it does to "cunt."
Either way it still backs up Ellen's point that a word referring to a
part of a woman's anatomy is primarily used by men about men. This is,
perhaps more understandable when you take Steptoe & Son into account -
because of the structure of the sitcom it could only have been used in
that way and that's the way that that the word was primarily introduced
to a wider audience.
As you say, we will probably never know.
Jeff farrow
places I've been. It is only used in derogatory reference to a woman by men.
I am originally from Canada. I have heard it used both ways there. Since the
usage common in Britain never made anatomical sense to me, I never used the
word the way the Brits do.
Do the Brits mean that a man so called is being girlish?
Jeff Farrow
Los Angeles
Ellen Mizzell wrote:
> A few weeks back there was a thread here about swearing. One of the
> points that was mentioned was the tendency for "cunt" to be used
> by men about men, rather than by men about women. Now a running
> thread in a newspaper diary column has reminded me that "berk", which
> to the best of my knowledge is used *only* about men, is in fact rhyming
> slang for cunt (Berkely Hunt or Berkshire Hunt).
>
Ellen Mizzell
> The "C" word is never used in the United States that way - at least in
> places I've been. It is only used in derogatory reference to a woman by men.
> I am originally from Canada. I have heard it used both ways there. Since the
> usage common in Britain never made anatomical sense to me, I never used the
> word the way the Brits do.
> Do the Brits mean that a man so called is being girlish?
It depends what you mean by "girlish". They mean he's a
shit, a bastard, a real son-of-a-bitch. Odd, isn't it?
--
Ellen Mizzell
KBurton487
>
>Partridge [1] Dates it to ca 1930, citing its appearance in print in
>1936. But he goes on to say that it was scarcely used until its frequent
>occurrence in "Steptoe & Son".
>
>Both Partridge and NSOED derive it from "Berkeley Hunt", which is
>apparently the name of a hunt in Gloucestershire. But Partridge also
>mentions a claim by Julian Franklyn (who wrote a book about rhyming
>slang) that "Berkshire Hunt" is the older form, dating from the mid
>C19th (but with a question mark). We shall probably never know.
>
So another myth bites the dust... a shame, as I found it a rather attractive
one.
Never mind. Thanks John.
Kim
Dr Robin Bignall
insult, *much* worse than SOB. Probably just as much as a woman feels when
it's used about her, but for different reasons. It's one of the more serious
insults in English, IMHO.
--
Wrmst rgds...
Ellen Mizzell <$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
<7f468u$328$1...@tictac.demon.co.uk>...
Ellen Mizzell
> You're exactly right. A man called the c-word would consider it a serious
> insult, *much* worse than SOB. Probably just as much as a woman feels when
> it's used about her, but for different reasons. It's one of the more serious
> insults in English, IMHO.
(nodding) Even worse than being called a big girl's blouse.
I wonder what women consider the worst possible insult. From another
woman, that is -- insults from men to women don't count.
Offers?
--
Ellen Mizzell
Graham Howe
Bertie Wooster wrote in message <37126...@news.netdirect.net.uk>...
>Ellen Mizzell <$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message <7etpan$1o3
>>> Here's the SOD on the matter:
>>> berk: (slang) also birk, burk(e). Mid 20thC. [Abbrev of Berkeley Hunt.]
A
>>> fool.
>>
>>They have a strange idea of what constitutes a fool....
>
>
>I think the reason is that "fool" is exactly what 99.9% of its users think
>it means. I had no idea of its origin till this thread endarkened me.
>
Whilst I am not of the school that argues that if two people use a word with
a particular meaning - irrespective of its original meaning - then that's
what it must mean, I would have to say that there is no doubt that to the
vast majority of speakers who know the word, a 'berk' is a 'fool' or a
'buffoon', and thus very different from a 'cunt' in its UK usage of (very
approximately) an unpleasant or inconsiderate person, at least when used
alone. It need not have this connotation when used with an adjective - 'you
stupid cunt!'- for example, where it seems simply to serve as a crutch for
the adjective.
I believe that in the US the word 'cunt' is commonly used to refer to a
woman in general, rather than as a term of abuse between men.
Graham
Graham Howe
Dr Robin Bignall wrote in message <37178...@news1.mcmail.com>...
>You're exactly right. A man called the c-word would consider it a serious
>insult, *much* worse than SOB. Probably just as much as a woman feels when
>it's used about her, but for different reasons. It's one of the more
serious
>insults in English, IMHO.
>
>Wrmst rgds...
>
>RB(docr...@cwcom.net)
My son always uses the euphemism 'see-you-next-Tuesday' (I hasten to add
that he learned neither this, nor as far as I am aware, the term which it
replaces from me); although this expression sounds less offensive, there is
no doubt from his usage of it that the meaning is equally as that of the
original word.
Graham
Red Valerian
>that he learned neither this, nor as far as I am aware, the term which it
>replaces from me); although this expression sounds less offensive, there is
>no doubt from his usage of it that the meaning is equally as that of the
>original word.
>Graham
>
This is an odd coincidence. One of my regular ng haunts is
rec.arts.tv.uk.eastenders (don't laugh) the EastEnders ng. The
programme turns out to have a big american and european audience so
the board is frequented by as many 'foreigners' as 'locals'. We had an
almost identical discussion re: the acceptability of 'cunt' just a
week or so ago.
With his tongue firmly in his cheek, an american posted the following
request to the board:
> Is the word acceptable in Britain? I may travel there soon, and would like
> very much to talk like the British do. Is "cunt" OK? Please help me
> avoid embarassment.
>
Our acknowledged US wit Ivan Davidoff posted the following reply:
<quote>
Yes, it's perfectly acceptable. Whenever I visit London, be it for
business or pleasure, I'm called that, and other things, all the time.
Another expression of friendliness is to tell people that you'll "see
them next Tuesday" -- I don't know why it's always Tuesday, perhaps
it's some quaint East End thing. For instance, if I were to bump into
a perfect stranger on the street, scattering their fragile parcels in
the gutter, stepping on a few in my haste to make reparations, the
intrepid Londoner might waive me away, graciously accepting my
apologies, adding,
"See you next Tuesday!"
Of course, they know as well as I that we'll never meet again -- it's
just a courtesy.
--
ID
--
</quote>
>This amusing post was added to by our resident Belgian wit, Alan Hope:
<quote>
Very true, Ivan, but not quite the whole story. There's a whole
ritual around the use of this term of amity that's worth spelling
out.
To give an example, when you approach a station-master at one of
Britain's fine railway stations and enquire: "Which platform does the
3.18 to Godalming leave from, you cunt?" the brave chap will probably
come back with the standard rejoinder: "Who you calling a cunt?"
It is important to remember that this is not a true question, but the
sort often wrongly called "rhetorical". Much as the answer to the
question: "How do you do?" is "How do you do?" (the questioner, being
conversant with French usage, will know that Ca va? is responded to
in the same way, thus: "Ca va?"), so the station-master's question is
a ritual response. The conversation is now allowed, no answer being
given, to pass to matters such as enquiries after the health of the
fellow's family: "Your mother? Your sister?" and so on.
It's a knowledge of pleasant little rituals like these which adds so
much to a first-time visitor's experience of London ways.
Cor, guv, you're a cunt and no mistake. See you next Tuesday!
AH
</quote>
Thought this might make you all smile.
Red
(PS: Ellen - about women insulting women. Hmmm...in my experience
slurs about body-type come pretty high up on the list, combined with
the usual epithets in hyphenated fashion. eg fat-slag; fat-cunt; etc.
I speak as a secondary school teacher who hears these terms bandied
about the playground fairly regularly. There's another insult in use,
but I haven't seen it written, so I'm not sure how you pronounce it. I
think it's *Mong* ??? I heard it used on 'Queer as Folk' as well.)
(PPS: Also to Ellen. I'll answer your email tomorrow!)
Ellen Mizzell
> (PS: Ellen - about women insulting women. Hmmm...in my experience
> slurs about body-type come pretty high up on the list, combined with
> the usual epithets in hyphenated fashion. eg fat-slag; fat-cunt; etc.
I could be wrong, but I think usually when girls/women call
one another names like slag and slut and cunt they are not doing
quite the same thing as when a man calls another a cunt. They are
really saying, "I am publicly labelling you the sort of woman (or
girl) a man would call a slag."
--
Ellen Mizzell
JMccull171
>quite the same thing as when a man calls another a cunt
I've seen this topic go by a large number of times. I can't say that I've ever
heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in this
ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
For what it's worth, in the U.S. this seems to be the most vile epithet that
can be used against a woman.
Jack
vellov
Red Valerian wrote in message <371abe23....@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>There's another insult in use,
>but I haven't seen it written, so I'm not sure how you pronounce it. I
>think it's *Mong* ??? I heard it used on 'Queer as Folk' as well.)
I can remember 'mong' being used twenty-something years ago in the
playgrounds of my youth. It's from Mongoloid (old unpleasant term for Down's
syndrome.)
vellov
vellov
JMccull171 wrote in message <19990417184012...@ng151.aol.com>...
>I can't say that I've ever
>heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in
this
>ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
It certainly happens here in England, quite frequently too, although not
usually by me. I would say that men in the UK use this term much more
frequently about other men than about women. If men wish to be insulting
about a woman, they might refer to her as a fucking cow/bitch/slut/slag.
Interestingly, the word 'bastard' is also used more often about men than
about women, by other men at any rate, and I think I can say the same about
'arsehole'. 'Prick' is definitely only used about men. It feels to me as
though words which are less directly related to the body, such as 'fuckwit',
are more gender-neutral. It may be, of course, that I don't feel as
comfortable thinking about women in an insulting way as I do about
denigrating men. It is possible, also, that I am simply not aware of the
terms that women use - many men speak completely differently when there are
women present than when there are not, and I expect this to be the case the
other way round. I believe that there are regional differences in terms of
levels of insult, too: I have been told that 'cow' is much more insulting in
Ireland and Scotland than it is in England. (I know, I know: Ireland is
*not* in the UK. But for linguistic purposes, is it OK to say 'these
islands'?)
With respect,
vellov
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
>
> I can't say that I've ever
> heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in this
> ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
>
> can be used against a woman.
>
This is pretty much where the thread that led to this thread
started. I think it's pretty interesting. Men in England
apparently call other men "cunt" or "berk," but do not call
women these names. I see some parallel as American men have
taken to calling each other "bitch" quite a bit. Still, "bitch"
is far more often applied to women.
IMHO, over here "cunt" is the most charged word in our
language. I believe that it carries more impact than "nigger."
It is definitely the strongest woman-to-woman swear. A man
calling a woman a "cunt" is even worse. I wonder if it ratchets
things up under hate crime laws.
jane
Ellen Mizzell
> JMccull171 wrote:
>>
>>
>> I can't say that I've ever
>> heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in this
>> ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
>>
>> For what it's worth, in the U.S. this seems to be the most vile epithet that
>> can be used against a woman.
>>
> This is pretty much where the thread that led to this thread
> started. I think it's pretty interesting. Men in England
> apparently call other men "cunt" or "berk," but do not call
> women these names.
They might call a woman a "cunt", but they wouldn't call her
a "berk". A woman cannot be a "berk" as far as I know.
> I see some parallel as American men have
> taken to calling each other "bitch" quite a bit. Still, "bitch"
> is far more often applied to women.
> IMHO, over here "cunt" is the most charged word in our
> language. I believe that it carries more impact than "nigger."
> It is definitely the strongest woman-to-woman swear. A man
> calling a woman a "cunt" is even worse. I wonder if it ratchets
> things up under hate crime laws.
Gee, I hope not. I'd rather see it lose the charge. It's not
unusual nowadays to hear "fuck" used as an ordinary verb or noun,
with no intent to shock. I look forward to the day when women will
be able to refer to their cunts as cunts, without having to watch
everyone within earshot turn pale, vomit, and faint.
--
Ellen Mizzell
peter prictoe
the habit of referring to young females as a "bit of grumble" and later
found that this was short for "grumble and grunt" which was navy rhyming
slang.
Peter
KBurton487 wrote in message
<19990415203927...@ngol04.aol.com>...
Dr Robin Bignall
I was discussing this with my partner last night and she agreed that for
her it's the most vile adjective to apply to a woman that she can think of.
In comparison, whore or bitch would be considered quite tame.
I think it's the most vile when it is used for a man, too. I'm surprised
that it's not used that way in the US. As far as its meaning for a man is
concerned, if you think of all of the foul things inherent in its use about
a woman, and add to those all of the foul things (rather than good
attributes) of comparing a masculine person to a feminine one in a
derogatory way, you start coming to see how bad it is. Actually, looking
back at this I'm rather lost for words to describe just how insulting I
would find it if it was applied to me, and what I would consider it meant. I
think it's an instinctive thing. (It's not often that I'm so incoherent: I
just don't seem to be able to explain, except to say that it would make me
feel sick and want to hit the perpetrator, and I've never hit anybody in my
life).
--
Wrmst rgds...
Ellen Mizzell <$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
<7fcsci$177$1...@tictac.demon.co.uk>...
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
> It's quite interesting, this difference between the UK and the US over cunt.
>
> I think it's the most vile when it is used for a man, too. I'm surprised
> that it's not used that way in the US.
I think we have too many guns here. "Cunt" is a killing word.
jane
Adrian Clark
> I've seen this topic go by a large number of times. I can't say that I've ever
> heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in this
> ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
Well, it definitely does happen in England (and, presumably, Britain as
a whole). It's a pretty strong thing to say, but it's definitely the
sort of thing a man would hurl at another man (usually a football
referee, in my experience!) at times of great stress.
> For what it's worth, in the U.S. this seems to be the most vile epithet that
> can be used against a woman.
It doesn't seem the sort of thing people over here would use exclusively
to insult women. It's just an aggressive term of abuse. The words I'd
tend to think of as being applicable only to women would be slut, whore,
slag (although this one has great comedic effect when used for men, in a
kind of Sarf London gangland way) or bitch. Interesting how they're all
judgements on a woman's sexual behaviour; you'd never insult a man by
calling him a stud or a gigolo, would you?
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
Adrian Clark
> IMHO, over here "cunt" is the most charged word in our
> language. I believe that it carries more impact than "nigger."
I'd be interested to know how people over here (in England, I'm
presuming you're on t'other side of the pond) would rate "cunt" against
"nigger" or "paki".
I'm pretty sure that, say, 15 years ago nigger/paki would have been
rated quite mildly by an awful lot of people*. Nowadays, though, with
what seems to be a more enlightened inter-racial attitude among a wider
range of British people, I think nigger/paki have probably jumped over
cunt as the "words you just never use, not even think about".
Adrian
*And yet, it seems, it still is seen that way by some. "It was just
banter, Martin". Sorry, that's a very UK-specific joke there!
--
__________________________________________________
Adrian Clark
> I can remember 'mong' being used twenty-something years ago in the
> playgrounds of my youth. It's from Mongoloid (old unpleasant term for Down's
> syndrome.)
There was a discussion about this on a mailing list I'm on. Mong (or
mongy) was definitely very common until, I'd say, the early 80s.
Nowadays it still occasionally appears, mainly in club culture, where
"monged" means sort of comfortably off your head, in a chillin' sort of
way (hey look, I must be cool, I'm using the correct argot... I think!)
"Spaz" or "Spak" (derived from spastic) was around at the same sort of
time IIRC.
Oh, and "cripple" was one of those common 70s/80s insults you don't hear
so much these days.
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
Ellen Mizzell
> JMccull171 <jmccu...@aol.com> wrote:
>> I've seen this topic go by a large number of times. I can't say that I've ever
>> heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in this
>> ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
> Well, it definitely does happen in England (and, presumably, Britain as
> a whole).
I've heard it on the continent also. (In France, in French, used
by a native, so I assume it's part of the vernacular.)
[..]
> Interesting how they're all
> judgements on a woman's sexual behaviour; you'd never insult a man by
> calling him a stud or a gigolo, would you?
Oh yes I would.
--
Ellen Mizzell
vellov
Adrian Clark wrote in message
<1dqi5h3.14l...@p42.nas1.is3.u-net.net>...
>vellov <vel...@control98.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I can remember 'mong' being used twenty-something years ago in the
>> playgrounds of my youth. It's from Mongoloid (old unpleasant term for
Down's
>> syndrome.)
>
>time IIRC.
>
participle of a verb, meaning 'to beg money by pretending to have a
disability.' I heard it used, sometime in the 80s, I think, when there was
apparently a vogue for going round people's houses with a little card that
stated one was deaf when one wasn't.
vellov
vellov
jan...@mailexcite.com wrote in message <371AA0C0...@mailexcite.com>...
I think it was Robert Heinlein who said, 'An armed society is a polite
society.' Your comment seems to reinforce this. Would you agree?
With respect,
vellov
vellov
Adrian Clark wrote in message
><jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
>
>> IMHO, over here "cunt" is the most charged word in our
>> language. I believe that it carries more impact than "nigger."
>
>I'd be interested to know how people over here (in England, I'm
>presuming you're on t'other side of the pond) would rate "cunt" against
>"nigger" or "paki".
>
>I'm pretty sure that, say, 15 years ago nigger/paki would have been
>rated quite mildly by an awful lot of people*. Nowadays, though, with
>what seems to be a more enlightened inter-racial attitude among a wider
>range of British people, I think nigger/paki have probably jumped over
>cunt as the "words you just never use, not even think about".
>
racist) people use these terms in normal conversation, and I have been
surprised by the use of 'paki' by somebody who emphatically denied any
racist attitude. It's like the difference between what men will say when
there are women present and when there are not: a group of middle-class
liberal acquaintances will not use these words, but that doesn't mean that
nobody does. I think and hope that Britain is becoming, as you say, more
enlightened, but there are still plenty of people who are violent,
obnoxious, rude or just plain stupid.
I can think of two phrases in which I have heard 'paki' used with
*definitely* no intent to malign on the part of the speaker, although I
could easily understand offence being taken by the hearer: 'paki black',
referring to a type of hashish, and 'paki shop', meaning the small corner
shops which are often, in Britain, run by Asians.
To tiptoe further across this linguistic minefield: as I understand it, the
word 'Asian' in Britain tends to refer to those who originate, or whose
families originate, from the Indian sub-continent, in other words the
countries of Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. I don't *think* the
word is in popular use for people from Thailand, China, Japan or the other
countries of the Far East. I believe the word is used differently in other
English-speaking countries, and would very much like to know how people feel
about current usage.
With respect,
vellov
vellov
>In article <1dqi4fg.j1s...@p42.nas1.is3.u-net.net>, Adrian Clark
<acl...@zappa.u-net.com> wrote:
>> JMccull171 <jmccu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>> I've seen this topic go by a large number of times. I can't say that
I've ever
>>> heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in
this
>>> ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
>
>> Well, it definitely does happen in England (and, presumably, Britain as
>> a whole).
>
>I've heard it on the continent also. (In France, in French, used
>by a native, so I assume it's part of the vernacular.)
I think that 'con' in French is much weaker than the direct translation.
I've heard 'connerie' ('cuntishness', I suppose) used to mean something
mildly irritating: 'il fait des conneries' (spelling?) feels like 'he's
pissing about.'
I recently read a novel, quite a humorous one, in which two brothers always
address each other as 'cunt', this being, to them, a term of laddish
affection. The really annoying thing is that I can't remember what the book
was called, or who wrote it.
>> Interesting how they're all
>> judgements on a woman's sexual behaviour; you'd never insult a man by
>> calling him a stud or a gigolo, would you?
> Oh yes I would.
Really? I think most men would preen if you called them 'stud.' I would.
With respect,
vellov
Ellen Mizzell
> Ellen Mizzell <$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> <7ff790$gd$1...@tictac.demon.co.uk>...
>>In article <1dqi4fg.j1s...@p42.nas1.is3.u-net.net>, Adrian Clark
> <acl...@zappa.u-net.com> wrote:
>>> JMccull171 <jmccu...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I've seen this topic go by a large number of times. I can't say that
> I've ever
>>>> heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in
> this
>>>> ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
>>
>>> Well, it definitely does happen in England (and, presumably, Britain as
>>> a whole).
>>
>>I've heard it on the continent also. (In France, in French, used
>>by a native, so I assume it's part of the vernacular.)
> I think that 'con' in French is much weaker than the direct translation.
> I've heard 'connerie' ('cuntishness', I suppose) used to mean something
> mildly irritating: 'il fait des conneries' (spelling?) feels like 'he's
> pissing about.'
You may well be right.
> I recently read a novel, quite a humorous one, in which two brothers always
> address each other as 'cunt', this being, to them, a term of laddish
> affection. The really annoying thing is that I can't remember what the book
> was called, or who wrote it.
A French novel, do you mean?
>>> Interesting how they're all
>>> judgements on a woman's sexual behaviour; you'd never insult a man by
>>> calling him a stud or a gigolo, would you?
>> Oh yes I would.
> Really? I think most men would preen if you called them 'stud.' I would.
Oh dear.
--
Ellen Mizzell
Dr Robin Bignall
would not use in polite company mainly because they are politically
incorrect. But I speak as a white man, of course. Members of those groups
may well have an entirely different view.
--
Wrmst rgds...
vellov
>> I recently read a novel, quite a humorous one, in which two brothers
always
>> address each other as 'cunt', this being, to them, a term of laddish
>> affection. The really annoying thing is that I can't remember what the
book
>> was called, or who wrote it.
>
>A French novel, do you mean?
No, British, and it's really irritating me. Not Will Self, but someone
vaguely of that ilk.
>>>> Interesting how they're all
>>>> judgements on a woman's sexual behaviour; you'd never insult a man by
>>>> calling him a stud or a gigolo, would you?
>
>>> Oh yes I would.
>
>> Really? I think most men would preen if you called them 'stud.' I would.
>
>Oh dear.
Sorry. Weakness, I know.
With respect,
vellov
Adrian Clark
> To tiptoe further across this linguistic minefield: as I understand it, the
> word 'Asian' in Britain tends to refer to those who originate, or whose
> families originate, from the Indian sub-continent, in other words the
> countries of Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. I don't *think* the
> word is in popular use for people from Thailand, China, Japan or the other
> countries of the Far East.
Yeah, I think you're right there. We (i.e the British) seem mostly to
divide "people from Asia" into either Asians or Orientals.
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
Adrian Clark
> > Oh yes I would.
>
> Really? I think most men would preen if you called them 'stud.' I would.
That's what I was getting at; the power of an insult depends on how it's
received by the "victim". Calling a man a stud (as an intended insult
for his - to use the female term - sluttishness) may lead him to think
you're complimenting him. Depends on the man, I suppose (not wishing to
cast aspersions at you, Vellov!)
Did I ever tell you about my gigolo days in St Tropez?
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
Ellen Mizzell
> vellov <vel...@control98.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> > Oh yes I would.
>>
>> Really? I think most men would preen if you called them 'stud.' I would.
> That's what I was getting at; the power of an insult depends on how it's
> received by the "victim". Calling a man a stud (as an intended insult
> for his - to use the female term - sluttishness) may lead him to think
> you're complimenting him.
Adding to the insulter's amusement, in my experience.
> Depends on the man, I suppose (not wishing to
> cast aspersions at you, Vellov!)
No, nor at anyone.
> Did I ever tell you about my gigolo days in St Tropez?
We're all ear^H^H^Hmodems.
--
Ellen Mizzell
Waldo
>> playgrounds of my youth. It's from Mongoloid (old unpleasant term for Down's
>> syndrome.)
>
>mongy) was definitely very common until, I'd say, the early 80s.
>Nowadays it still occasionally appears, mainly in club culture, where
>"monged" means sort of comfortably off your head, in a chillin' sort of
>way (hey look, I must be cool, I'm using the correct argot... I think!)
>
>time IIRC.
Wasn't spacko was still being used on TV a couple of years ago - that
Skinner/Baddiel football thingy?
>
>Oh, and "cripple" was one of those common 70s/80s insults you don't hear
>so much these days.
>
The change of usage in "cripple" is interesting. Near to where I live
there is a "college for the disabled" which is usually just referred to
as the Derwen. In the Trade Directories of the 1920s & 30s its own
advertisements call it "Derwen Cripples College." Clearly the word has
become much more pejorative over the years - from statement of fact, to
insult, to virtually unspoken - though the use of "crippled" and
"crippling" doesn't seem to have suffered a parallel decline.
Wonder if "disabled" & "handicapped" will follow it?
--
Waldo
Blessed are the cross-eyed, for they shall see God twice.
Adrian Clark
> Wonder if "disabled" & "handicapped" will follow it?
In a way, I suppose, they've already started to go the same way. A
phrase like "People with disabilities" seems to be designed to give less
of an impression that these people are wholly summed up by their
condition; that it's an unfortunate aspect of an otherwise full life.
Don't know how widespread that sort of phrase is, though (I'd imagine a
lot of people would see it as "typically PC"); I don't use it myself,
although I can sympathise with the reasoning.
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
Opinicus
news:CPrToJA9...@the-bunker.demon.co.uk...
> The change of usage in "cripple" is interesting. Near to
where I live
> there is a "college for the disabled" which is usually just
referred to
> as the Derwen. In the Trade Directories of the 1920s & 30s
its own
> advertisements call it "Derwen Cripples College." Clearly the
word has
> become much more pejorative over the years - from statement of
fact, to
> insult, to virtually unspoken - though the use of "crippled"
and
> "crippling" doesn't seem to have suffered a parallel decline.
The PC-word these days I believe is "challenged". By coincidence
I just today had a client want to emend the sentence "The
Turkish leasing industry in 1998 was handicapped by a severe
credit shortage brought on by..." to read "...challenged..." in
their annual report. It took me a great deal of jawboning to
convince them that this was not what they wanted to say.
Bob
Istanbul
--
To reply by email, dot the dash in doruk-net.
jan...@mailexcite.com
Have you seen the movie "Thelma and Louise?"
jane
vellov
jan...@mailexcite.com wrote in message
<371CA6AE...@mailexcite.com>...
No, I haven't. What's it about?
With respect,
vellov
Daniel James
> I think that 'con' in French is much weaker than the direct translation.
> I've heard 'connerie' ('cuntishness', I suppose) used to mean something
> mildly irritating: 'il fait des conneries' (spelling?) feels like 'he's
> pissing about.'
>
A direct translation of this (into British English - it doesn't work
across the pond where the slang anatomy is different) that I have heard is
"fannying about".
Having broken my silence on the matter of "Berk" and "the c-word" - a
discussion I have followed with some amusement I shall go on to voice my
opinion that "c<cough>", as it is used as an insult in English, is used
purely to shock - it's an arbitrary noun with 10,000 volts attached. It is
- without any doubt in my mind - the one truly taboo word still to be
found in the English language. I don't like to use words like "fuck" in
public places (or public newsgroups) but my reticence to do so is as
nothing compared with "c<ahem>".
I think "c<mumble>" probably entered American English slang as an abusive
reference to women (to prostitutes?) whereas I would guess it entered
British English as a word schoolboys used to be shocking. I don't think
the word in British is applied only to men by men, but I do think that it
is a word that many - even of those who do use it - would be embarrassed
to use in mixed company.
"Berk", as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, is certainly used
with the meaning of "fool". It was a common playground insult when I was
at school some thirty years ago and I'm sure we didn't know it's origin or
it's 'proper' meaning (I'm also fairly sure that we'd have spelt it
"burk(e)" if we'd had occasion to write it). Someone (Ellen?) suggested
that "Berk" was not used of females - I'm not sure about that. It had
never occurred to me that a "berk" could only be male, but I can't
remember ever hearing a female being so labelled (but then again, I was at
an all-boys school and that may have robbed me of the opportunity).
Cheers,
Daniel
Ellen Mizzell
> In article <7fg449$uj5$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Vellov wrote:
>> I think that 'con' in French is much weaker than the direct translation.
>> I've heard 'connerie' ('cuntishness', I suppose) used to mean something
>> mildly irritating: 'il fait des conneries' (spelling?) feels like 'he's
>> pissing about.'
>>
> A direct translation of this (into British English - it doesn't work
> across the pond where the slang anatomy is different) that I have heard is
> "fannying about".
> Having broken my silence on the matter of "Berk" and "the c-word" - a
> discussion I have followed with some amusement I shall go on to voice my
> opinion that "c<cough>", as it is used as an insult in English, is used
> purely to shock
I'm in no doubt that you're wrong there, Daniel. I've heard it used
more than once as a sincere expression of deepest hatred. It was not
done for shock effect but to give vent to strong emotion.
> - it's an arbitrary noun with 10,000 volts attached.
Arbitrary? I have to disagree with you here also. I don't think
it's arbitrary at all.
> It is
> - without any doubt in my mind - the one truly taboo word still to be
> found in the English language. I don't like to use words like "fuck" in
> public places (or public newsgroups) but my reticence to do so is as
> nothing compared with "c<ahem>".
Third disagreement. I think there is a distinction to be drawn
between using words like "fuck" and "cunt" as swearwords, and
discussing them as words. I too find it tiresome when people
resort to flinging such words about as epithets, not because I
find them shocking but because the people who use them in that
way never seem to be satisfied with fewer than a dozen
instantiations per paragraph, which doesn't leave much room for
anything else, like sense, or wit, or information.
Talking about the words as words is different. This is a newsgroup
about language. Words shouldn't be regarded as unmentionable,
on the grounds that others mis-use them. Such logic should certainly
lead us to ban "hopefully" and "momentarily" and "acronym". <g>
Women (some women) do use the word "cunt" now among themselves to
mean "vagina". I see no reason why that usage shouldn't spread.
Then it would no longer be a disgusting word. (I hope!)
> I think "c<mumble>" probably entered American English slang as an abusive
> reference to women (to prostitutes?) whereas I would guess it entered
> British English as a word schoolboys used to be shocking.
I don't follow. "Cunt" is a very old word. Why do you think it
entered American English and British English at different times?
[..]
> "Berk", as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, is certainly used
> with the meaning of "fool". It was a common playground insult when I was
> at school some thirty years ago and I'm sure we didn't know it's origin or
> it's 'proper' meaning (I'm also fairly sure that we'd have spelt it
> "burk(e)" if we'd had occasion to write it). Someone (Ellen?) suggested
> that "Berk" was not used of females - I'm not sure about that. It had
> never occurred to me that a "berk" could only be male, but I can't
> remember ever hearing a female being so labelled (but then again, I was at
> an all-boys school and that may have robbed me of the opportunity).
I've never heard a woman called a "berk", but also (and this is
what convinces me it's a male-only word) I think it's a male
signifier. If you weren't sure of someone's sex, hearing someone
else describe them as a berk would lead you towards the conclusion
that the person was male. IMO.
It's been suggested here that this is a kind of secondary effect,
due to the re-introduction of the word in the all-male sitcom
"Steptoe and Son". Seems plausible to me.
--
Ellen Mizzell
jan...@mailexcite.com
> >
> >Have you seen the movie "Thelma and Louise?"
>
> No, I haven't. What's it about?
It's about women, guns, and manners in the modern American
west. Can you rent it?
jane
Dr Robin Bignall
respectable Anglo-Saxon words which Duke William tried to eliminate when his
court (and the English toadies) tried to make French the language of
England.
--
Wrmst rgds...
Ellen Mizzell <$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
<7fklof$ho$1...@tictac.demon.co.uk>...
<snip>
Graham Howe
Dr Robin Bignall wrote in message <371e5...@news1.mcmail.com>...
>I always believed (wrongly?) that fuck, cunt, arse etc. were perfectly
>respectable Anglo-Saxon words which Duke William tried to eliminate when
his
>court (and the English toadies) tried to make French the language of
>England.
>
>--
>Wrmst rgds...
>
>RB(docr...@cwcom.net)
nor the inclination to research the origins of these words, the fact that
they appear to be cognate with their counterparts in other European
languages would appear to support this theory.
Graham
Red Valerian
>respectable Anglo-Saxon words which Duke William tried to eliminate when his
>court (and the English toadies) tried to make French the language of
>England.
Not sure about that, but they certainly hadn't disappeared very far by
the fourteenth century. Back to my Chaucer glossary again.
In the faibleau - 'The Miller's Tale', the comely Alisoun is grabbed
'by the queynte' which is translated as 'cunt' in any modern edition
and as 'pudendum' in the older versions.
(The term is pronounced like 'quaint' and indeed the words have the
same derivation, apparently.)
Now Chaucer died in 1400 so I do realise that we're talking 350 years
after the Conquest. But clearly 'cunt' hadn't so much disappeared as
it had mutated into something rich and strange by then. Chaucer is
certainly not using it in its original form, though - I will admit.
Interestingly, in Middle English, 'queynt/cunt' can also mean
'strange; curious; curiously contrived; elaborate; ornamented; artful;
sly; or graceful.'
I can't find Chaucer using fuck, but a variant of 'arse' appears
frequently, spelt 'ers'.
Again from the Miller's Tale we hear that one man tries to trick
another by making him: "kisse his ers".
It struck me funny when I first read it as "kiss my ass" had always
seemed like such an americanism.
While we're on early versions of expletives, I remember 'shiten'
being used for 'shitty' too - as when the dear little Parson asks
how can you have 'a shiten shepherde and a clene sheep?' Meaning how
can a man of the cloth expect his flock to be good if he isn't good
himself? (I'm quoting from memory here, so make allowances.)
Finally, I do remember reading somewhere, that all one syllable words
in modern English are of Anglo-Saxon derivation. Seemed a bit of a
blanket generalisation to me, but I'm just passing it on as something
that I read in a textbook once. Not all that long ago. Despite my
great age, I got my degree in 1990. And hey - I got a first class.
(Not all that relevant perhaps - but hey - I felt like sharing.)
Red
Waldo
>I always believed (wrongly?) that fuck, cunt, arse etc. were perfectly
>respectable Anglo-Saxon words which Duke William tried to eliminate when his
>court (and the English toadies) tried to make French the language of
>England.
>
>Wrmst rgds...
>
Arse - Old English from Old Frisian I believe, lovely word CF "Turd."
Nice, no nonsense Anglo Saxon 4 letter words, unlike:
Fuck - Middle English first recorded 1503 (SOED) now believed to have
been introduced by Dutch sailors. (What wonderfully direct
conversationalists those sailors must have been.)
Cunt - again Middle English, similar word in Old Norse.
Middle English is, what, C12th to C14th, the time that French was the
language of court so when these words came in they were probably more
common among the lower classes but isn't that usually the way?
Although the idea of an irate King William shouting "look, just shut the
fuck up." does have its attractions.
Daniel James
> In article <VA.000001b...@barney.sonadata>, Daniel James
<inte...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > discussion I have followed with some amusement I shall go on to voice my
> > opinion that "c<cough>", as it is used as an insult in English, is used
> > purely to shock
>
> I'm in no doubt that you're wrong there, Daniel. I've heard it used
> more than once as a sincere expression of deepest hatred. It was not
> done for shock effect but to give vent to strong emotion.
>
I put that badly (but maybe you'll still disagree). I didn't mean to suggest that
the word was not being used as an insult, but that its insultingness comes more
from the fact that it is a taboo word than than from the word's actual meaning.
> > - it's an arbitrary noun with 10,000 volts attached.
>
> Arbitrary? I have to disagree with you here also. I don't think
> it's arbitrary at all.
>
Arbitrary in the sense that any equally forbidden word would have done as well in
its place. Again, I put this badly, but I sense that you may still not agree with
me.
> I don't follow. "Cunt" is a very old word. Why do you think it
> entered American English and British English at different times?
>
Yes, the word has been around for centuries with the specific meaning of a vagina.
What I was suggesting is that it came to be used as an insult in different ways on
opposite sides of the Atlantic. This was pure conjecture on my part in an attempt
to rationalize the fact that it seems to have rather different usages in British
and in American English.
Cheers,
Daniel.
jrpellan
Adrian Clark a écrit :
> JMccull171 <jmccu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I've seen this topic go by a large number of times. I can't say that I've ever
> > heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except in this
> > ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
>
> Well, it definitely does happen in England (and, presumably, Britain as
> a whole). It's a pretty strong thing to say, but it's definitely the
> sort of thing a man would hurl at another man (usually a football
> referee, in my experience!) at times of great stress.
>
> > For what it's worth, in the U.S. this seems to be the most vile epithet that
> > can be used against a woman.
>
> It doesn't seem the sort of thing people over here would use exclusively
> to insult women. It's just an aggressive term of abuse. The words I'd
> tend to think of as being applicable only to women would be slut, whore,
> slag (although this one has great comedic effect when used for men, in a
> kind of Sarf London gangland way) or bitch.
Slut, bitch, whore and slease are common enough here in Ontario. I have heard slut
applied to males. I have never heard of slag as an insult, here it is what is left
over after the minerals have been extracted from the ore. When crushed, it is used
as a substitute for gravel.
> Interesting how they're all
> judgements on a woman's sexual behaviour; you'd never insult a man by
> calling him a stud or a gigolo, would you?
Again, the term male slut is used.
>
>
> Adrian
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
H. Todd Knox
name, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Avoid situations like
this - not to mention being able to find legitimate words for what you
really mean. Egad.
Dr Robin Bignall <docr...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:371a0...@news1.mcmail.com...
> It's quite interesting, this difference between the UK and the US over
cunt.
> her it's the most vile adjective to apply to a woman that she can think
of.
> In comparison, whore or bitch would be considered quite tame.
>
> I think it's the most vile when it is used for a man, too. I'm surprised
> concerned, if you think of all of the foul things inherent in its use
about
> a woman, and add to those all of the foul things (rather than good
> attributes) of comparing a masculine person to a feminine one in a
> derogatory way, you start coming to see how bad it is. Actually, looking
> back at this I'm rather lost for words to describe just how insulting I
> would find it if it was applied to me, and what I would consider it meant.
I
> think it's an instinctive thing. (It's not often that I'm so incoherent: I
> just don't seem to be able to explain, except to say that it would make me
> feel sick and want to hit the perpetrator, and I've never hit anybody in
my
> life).
>
> --
> Wrmst rgds...
>
> RB(docr...@cwcom.net)
> Ellen Mizzell <$news1$@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >In article <3719F0D2...@mailexcite.com>, jan...@mailexcite.com
> <jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
> >> JMccull171 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I can't say that I've ever
> >>> heard, or heard of, a man calling another man a cunt anywhere except
in
> this
> >>> ng. Could this be something that happens in England but not over here?
> >>>
epithet
> that
> >>> can be used against a woman.
> >>>
> >
> >> started. I think it's pretty interesting. Men in England
> >> apparently call other men "cunt" or "berk," but do not call
> >> women these names.
> >
> >They might call a woman a "cunt", but they wouldn't call her
> >a "berk". A woman cannot be a "berk" as far as I know.
> >
> >> I see some parallel as American men have
> >> taken to calling each other "bitch" quite a bit. Still, "bitch"
> >> is far more often applied to women.
> >
> >> IMHO, over here "cunt" is the most charged word in our
> >> language. I believe that it carries more impact than "nigger."
> >> calling a woman a "cunt" is even worse. I wonder if it ratchets
> >> things up under hate crime laws.
> >
> >Gee, I hope not. I'd rather see it lose the charge. It's not
> >unusual nowadays to hear "fuck" used as an ordinary verb or noun,
> >with no intent to shock. I look forward to the day when women will
> >be able to refer to their cunts as cunts, without having to watch
> >everyone within earshot turn pale, vomit, and faint.
> >
> >--
> >Ellen Mizzell
> >
> >
>
>
>
Dr Robin Bignall
and have neither the desire nor the intention to take up residence in a
monastery.
--
Wrmst rgds...
RB(docr...@cwcom.net)
H. Todd Knox wrote in message ...
>First, why are you around people who use these words. Second, what's in a
>name, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Avoid situations
like
>this - not to mention being able to find legitimate words for what you
>really mean. Egad.
<all of the previous thread snipped -- it's on the newsgroup>
Adrian Clark
> H. Todd Knox wrote in message ...
> >First, why are you around people who use these words. Second, what's in a
> >name, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Avoid situations
> like
> >this - not to mention being able to find legitimate words for what you
> >really mean. Egad.
I'd rather be around that sort of person than the sort who would avoid
using certain words purely because they're scared of going to hell (or
whatever). I also use those words myself, along with other useful words
such as "shoelace" and "ambivalence". They've all got their uses.
And "legitimate words"? They're all legitimate. You just have to learn
how they all fit together.
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
Dr Robin Bignall
to cut me off from the world. It's probably best that it did, or I may well
have invented some new, four-letter words that even Chaucer never heard of.
In any case, Adrian, you said it better than I could.
If I may be allowed some small levity, this is what we used to chant to the
toffee-noses when I was a kid after the war. (No, dears, not the Crimea.)
"Your mother taught you not to swear,
Shit, bugger, arsehole, we don't care!"
--
Wrmst rgds...
Adrian Clark wrote in message
<1drmuhs.dys...@p121.nas3.is3.u-net.net>...
Dr Robin Bignall
Express has decided to cut me off from the world. It's probably just as
well, for I may have mentioned some four-letter words that even Chaucer
never heard of. In any case, Adrian, you put it better than I could have
done.
As we used to say to the toffee-noses after the war (no, dears, not the
Crimea):
Dr Robin Bignall
playing up.)
--
Wrmst rgds...
RB
Ellen Mizzell
> I tried to reply to the Knox comment last night, but for some reason Outlook
> Express has decided to cut me off from the world. It's probably just as
> well, for I may have mentioned some four-letter words that even Chaucer
> never heard of. In any case, Adrian, you put it better than I could have
> done.
> As we used to say to the toffee-noses after the war (no, dears, not the
> Crimea):
> "Your mother taught you not to swear,
> Shit, bugger, arsehole, we don't care!"
The one I heard was:
"Mum's out, Dad's out, let's talk rude.
Poo, pee, belly, bum, shit."
Maybe that was the toffee-noses' variant.
--
Ellen Mizzell
Adrian Clark
> "Your mother taught you not to swear,
> Shit, bugger, arsehole, we don't care!"
Reminds me of another little tune for naughty boys (and girls). Not
exactly the same, as this one lets you simultaneously swear and claim
not to be swearing...
(To the tune of the first bit of Mozart's 'Eine Kleine Nachtmusik')
Arse'ole, arse'ole, a soldier I shall be
Too pissed, too pissed, two pistols on my knee
Fuck you, fuck you, for curiosity
I'll fight for the cunt, I'll fight for the cunt
I'll fight for the c(o)unt-er-yyyy!
"No Sir, I wasn't swearing; it's about being a soldier, honest"
Adrian
--
__________________________________________________
rka...@rkadel.ne.mediaone.net
>Reminds me of another little tune for naughty boys (and girls). Not
>exactly the same, as this one lets you simultaneously swear and claim
>not to be swearing...
>
>(To the tune of the first bit of Mozart's 'Eine Kleine Nachtmusik')
>
>Arse'ole, arse'ole, a soldier I shall be
>Too pissed, too pissed, two pistols on my knee
>Fuck you, fuck you, for curiosity
>I'll fight for the cunt, I'll fight for the cunt
>I'll fight for the c(o)unt-er-yyyy!
>
>"No Sir, I wasn't swearing; it's about being a soldier, honest"
We had a clapping game, along the same lines but tamer:
Miss Suzy had a steamboat
The steamboat had a bell
Miss Suzy went to heaven
And the steamboat went to
Hello operator
Please give me number nine
And if you disconnect me
I'll <mumbleIforget> your
Behind the 'frigerator
There lay a piece of glass
Miss Suzy sat upon it
And cut her little
As' me no more questions
I'll tell you no more lies
The boys are in the girls' room
Pulling down their
Flies are in the meadow,
The bees are in the park
Miss Suzy and her boyfriend
Are kissing in the
D-A-R-K D-A-R-K D-A-R-K dark!
Dr Robin Bignall
guess a couple of your rhymes in the clapping game. Ta very muchly* for
brightening up my insomnia :-)
(* note for E2Lers -- this phrase is not, of course, correct English. It's a
bit of silliness of a form that used to be used by certain types as a sort
of ponderous, slightly self-conscious, humour. Mostly now out of fashion,
thank goodness. The second comma in the sentence before last is, I believe,
necessary. However, one major poster in this NG accused me, long ago, on
Nitpick, of suffering from 'comma-itis', so don't take my word for it.)
--
Wrmst rgds...
RB(docr...@cwcom.net)
rka...@rkadel.ne.mediaone.net wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 12 May 1999 09:20:54 +0000, Adrian Clark <acl...@zappa.u-net.com>
wrote:
(original snipped to save re-reading.)
rka...@rkadel.ne.mediaone.net
>I'm afraid I'm too naive to
>guess a couple of your rhymes in the clapping game.
In each case, the implied last word of a stanza sounds the same as the
beginning of the next stanza. No guessing required.
Rachel
Daniel James
> "Mum's out, Dad's out, let's talk rude.
> Poo, pee, belly, bum, shit."
>
One of Flanders's and Swann's songs (entitled "P** P* B***** B**
D******" contains the lines (with variations)
Ma's out Pa's out let's talk rude
Pee, po, belly, bum, drawers
That song must date from about 1960 (plus or minus a couple) as that's
when that duo wrote and performed all the songs for which they are
justly and jointly famous. I wonder whether your "Mum's out, Dad's out"
predates it, or is perhaps derived from it?
Cheers,
Daniel
Ellen Mizzell
I expect it's the same and I've just misremembered it. "Ma" and
"Pa" sound much more right than my "Mum" and "Dad". I think my
unconscious must have sneakily embourgeoised it.
--
Ellen Mizzell