The case of 'Nothing, if any'
chance kim
I asked, 'What is the 'if any'?', in each of the cited,
maintaining that the 'if any' is 'whatsoever'.
And rejoinders followed as follows.
How about those of us who have done nothing if any
to stop the famine except playing the blame game?
Don't tell me you have contributed money in the past
or you have cried.--Cited
It is not good English. It is both unidiomatic and illogical
-- one might even call it nonsense. If you say someone
has done "nothing," then you don't need
an "if any." --Robert Lieblich
Recalling that this National Biodiversity Strategy
and Action Plan is a five-year project (1998 to 2003)
and nothing, if any, has been done to date,
it certainly defeats the purpose
for which it was produced.--Cited
This is the one that is incorrect. Let's look
at the part that is question, "... and nothing, if any,
has been done to date ..." and see what is is saying.
"If any" is incomplete and is understood to include
"has been done to date". With that in mind, expand
the quoted part, and you get "... if any has been done
to date, nothing has been done to date ...".
Do you really think that makes any sense? --Bill McCray
Before refuting the rebuttals, I quote
from the Oxford English Dictionary:
1780 S. Holten Jrnl. in Essex Inst. Coll. (1920) LVI. 96,
I have not traveled any this day on account of my horses.
1869 ĄŽMark TwainĄŻ Innoc. Abroad iv. 45
It is a good tune--you can't improve it any.
1958 Punch 17 Sept. 386/1 This couldn't have helped
the Yogi any.
' Whichever', 'of whatever kind', 'of whatever quantity',
and 'at all' are the definitions of 'any', given by the OED.
'It is a good tune--you can't improve it any,' can be
'...you can't improve it at all.'
It follows that you can intensify the 'at all' by saying
'if at all', thus it becoming '...you can't improve it
if at all,' and this alternately becoming '...you can't improve
it if any'.
This means by no means '...you can't improve it
if you can improve any.'
Thus it follows that '... who have done
nothing if any to stop the famine....'
can be '...who have done nothing whatsoever
to stop the famine....'.
Therefore, the citation is an idiomatic,
logical and perfect English sentence.
Which might as well have been banished
to the trash bin of 'bad English',
thanks to the Robert Lieblich and his gang.
You know the rest of the story.
CK
Am I seeing what you are not seeing?
What is it that I see, while you not?
Robert Lieblich
[ snipped out of mercy ]
> Therefore, the citation is an idiomatic,
> logical and perfect English sentence.
You, sir, are pathetic.
> Which might as well have been banished
> to the trash bin of 'bad English',
> thanks to the Robert Lieblich and his gang.
"might as well have been banished" is unidiomatic without a
comparison, express or implied. Delete "as." There is no need for
an article before a proper noun in a context such as yours. Delete
"the" before my name.
Okay, CK, as long as I've gone this far I'll waste a few more
electrons on you. Your problem is that you know all the rules but
have no idea how to apply them. All I've ever wanted to do was help
you, but you are as incapable of understanding as you are of
gratitude. You've taken someone who has written at exhaustive
length in an effort to clarify things for you and made him sick to
his stomach of you. You don't want things clarified? Fine, speak
your pidgin where and as you will. You have my sincerest
sympathies.
> You know the rest of the story.
That we do.
>
> Am I seeing what you are not seeing?
> What is it that I see, while you not?
Mirages, pal, mirages.
--
Bob Lieblich
<sigh>
meirman
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
>I asked, 'What is the 'if any'?', in each of the cited,
>maintaining that the 'if any' is 'whatsoever'.
>And rejoinders followed as follows.
>
>How about those of us who have done nothing if any
>to stop the famine except playing the blame game?
This makes no sense. Maybe "if any" should be after "us", it would
have decent syntax, except it would imply that playing the blame game
does something to stop the famine. I doubt it does.
>Don't tell me you have contributed money in the past
>or you have cried.--Cited
>
>It is not good English. It is both unidiomatic and illogical
>-- one might even call it nonsense. If you say someone
>has done "nothing," then you don't need
>an "if any." --Robert Lieblich
Absolutely. Not that Robert needs someone to agree with him, but
Chance might think so.
>Recalling that this National Biodiversity Strategy
>and Action Plan is a five-year project (1998 to 2003)
>and nothing, if any, has been done to date,
>it certainly defeats the purpose
>for which it was produced.--Cited
>
>This is the one that is incorrect. Let's look
>at the part that is question, "... and nothing, if any,
>has been done to date ..." and see what is is saying.
>"If any" is incomplete and is understood to include
>"has been done to date".
That's not the problem. "If any" has no place in that sentence.
"How many people, if any, came to the demonstration?" makes sense.
"If any" means maybe none came. Right now I can't think of any other
usage.
> With that in mind, expand
>the quoted part, and you get "... if any has been done
>to date, nothing has been done to date ...".
>Do you really think that makes any sense? --Bill McCray
Bill's right. It doesn't.
>Before refuting the rebuttals, I quote
>from the Oxford English Dictionary:
>
>1780 S. Holten Jrnl. in Essex Inst. Coll. (1920) LVI. 96,
>I have not traveled any this day on account of my horses.
>1869 ¡®Mark Twain¡¯ Innoc. Abroad iv. 45
>It is a good tune--you can't improve it any.
>1958 Punch 17 Sept. 386/1 This couldn't have helped
>the Yogi any.
There are no 'if any's here, only 'any's. Are you tripping on acid?
>' Whichever', 'of whatever kind', 'of whatever quantity',
>and 'at all' are the definitions of 'any', given by the OED.
>
>'It is a good tune--you can't improve it any,' can be
>'...you can't improve it at all.'
>
>It follows that you can intensify the 'at all' by saying
>'if at all',
It doesn't follow at all.
And you can't replace "at all" with "if at all" in most cases and
where it would sound ok, you will have changed the meaning.
> thus it becoming '...you can't improve it
>if at all,'
This makes no sense.
>and this alternately becoming '...you can't improve
>it if any'.
In cases were "if at all" made sense, I don't think "if any" would be
an alternative. But maybe some example will show me otherwise.
>This means by no means '...you can't improve it
>if you can improve any.'
>
>Thus it follows that '... who have done
>nothing if any to stop the famine....'
This makes no sense.
>can be '...who have done nothing whatsoever
>to stop the famine....'.
This makes sense.
>Therefore, the citation is an idiomatic,
>logical and perfect English sentence.
>
>Which might as well have been banished
>to the trash bin of 'bad English',
>thanks to the Robert Lieblich and his gang.
I don't think I'm in his gang, but if what I said means otherwise,
that's ok too.
>You know the rest of the story.
>
>CK
>
>Am I seeing what you are not seeing?
>What is it that I see, while you not?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
Mark Wallace
> I quote
> from the Oxford English Dictionary:
>
> 1780 S. Holten Jrnl. in Essex Inst. Coll. (1920) LVI. 96,
> I have not traveled any this day on account of my horses.
> 1869 ĄŽMark TwainĄŻ Innoc. Abroad iv. 45
Where, exactly, is the phrase "if any" in that sentence?
> It is a good tune--you can't improve it any.
> 1958 Punch 17 Sept. 386/1 This couldn't have helped
> the Yogi any.
Where, exactly, is the phrase "if any" in that sentence?
> ' Whichever', 'of whatever kind', 'of whatever quantity',
> and 'at all' are the definitions of 'any', given by the OED.
And what is the definition of the phrase "if any", given by the OED?
Don't you think that that might be pertinent?
> 'It is a good tune--you can't improve it any,' can be
> '...you can't improve it at all.'
Where, exactly, is the phrase "if any" in that sentence?
> It follows that you can intensify the 'at all' by saying
> 'if at all', thus it becoming '...you can't improve it
> if at all,' and this alternately becoming '...you can't improve
> it if any'.
BRILLIANT!
So, if I want to intensify a word or phrase, I just stick an 'if' in front
of it!
What a fantastic idea!
So an 'if banana' is a big, or really good, banana!
Thank you for bringing logic to our meagre language!
> This means by no means '...you can't improve it
> if you can improve any.'
>
> Thus it follows that '... who have done
> nothing if any to stop the famine....'
> can be '...who have done nothing whatsoever
> to stop the famine....'.
>
> Therefore, the citation is an idiomatic,
> logical and perfect English sentence.
That sentence is indeed logical and good English, but not for the reasons
you say. I have already explained that one, by reordering the words to make
the associations easier to see:
-- "How about those of us, if any, who have done nothing ~~".
> Which might as well have been banished
> to the trash bin of 'bad English',
> thanks to the Robert Lieblich and his gang.
>
> You know the rest of the story.
Indeed. A lone foreigner tries to talk garbage about the English language
to native English speakers from all over the world, and refuses to accept
that he is wrong.
I doubt you'll get a movie deal out of it.
You have, in this posting, given several uses of the word 'any', but have
not addressed at all the usage of the phrase 'if any'.
Given that there are several hundreds of usages of 'any', you could probably
go on doing this for years -- and you are such an ignorant, arrogant prick
that I imagine you will.
Have fun doing so. I shall not be around to listen to it.
*PLONK*
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
Bill McCray
<live...@edunet4u.net> wrote:
> Before refuting the rebuttals, I quote
> from the Oxford English Dictionary:
>
> 1780 S. Holten Jrnl. in Essex Inst. Coll. (1920) LVI. 96,
> I have not traveled any this day on account of my horses.
> 1869 ĄŽMark TwainĄŻ Innoc. Abroad iv. 45
> It is a good tune--you can't improve it any.
> 1958 Punch 17 Sept. 386/1 This couldn't have helped
> the Yogi any.
>
> ' Whichever', 'of whatever kind', 'of whatever quantity',
> and 'at all' are the definitions of 'any', given by the OED.
Please don't believe that that means that "any" can be replaced with
any of those four definitions in any context. What it means is that
for each of those phrases or words there are contexts in which that
phrase or word means the same as "any". It doesn't mean that all of
the definitions and "and" are interchangable in all contexts.
>
> 'It is a good tune--you can't improve it any,' can be
> '...you can't improve it at all.'
For example, in that context "at all" can be substituted for "any".
None of the other three definitions make sense if substituted for
"any" in that context.
> It follows that you can intensify the 'at all' by saying
> 'if at all', thus it becoming '...you can't improve it
> if at all,'
No, that doesn't follow. There's no sense in studying the rest of
your argument, because it has already fallen apart.
Bill
chance kim
"Mark Wallace" <mwal...@dse.nl> wrote
> Given that there are several hundreds of usages of 'any', you could
probably
> go on doing this for years -- and you are such an ignorant, arrogant prick
> that I imagine you will.
Is that all?
You know what? I have a friend who is
a weightlifter.
It was at the college gym where it all happened.
One of his juniors acted very much disrespectfully
before his eyes. He told him to come over to him.
'What is it?" 'Nothing.' 'What is nothing?' This is the guy
who rarely asks questions before he acts.
He grabbed him, lifted him up, threw him
over his head, sending him crashing resoundingly
onto the floor, head first. He had no time to use the safe fall tech.
Instant death. It happened just like a lightening.
My friend is so swift you can barely see when his hand
is upon you, just as my elder brother is. He served a term.
He is still as robust as used to be. He is farming a big farm
300 km south of where I live. We meet at school reunions
and keep in touch with each other through a network
we school friends maintain.
You know, three of the Korean presidents came from the army.
Two of them from special forces. One of their favorite underlings
was one of my friends. He was army chief and defense minister.
His yesterday's underlings still follow him. Who are they?
Korean army special forces members. The thing like you
is a piece of cake for these guys. You know what. The knuckles
of their hands are invisible. The ridges and valleys are
buried under hardened fists. Did you see it? They can pulverize
layers and layers of bricks at one instant blow. Think about it.
Your head is just a clump of pulp at their hands.
I have a total of five army generals among my friends. They are
all graduates of the Korean Military Academy. We meet
at school reunions and keep in touch with each other.
You may think the skill to break the head rare over there, but the fact
of the matter is it is commonplace a skill here. You see, lots and lots
of people practice martial arts at the ubiquitous gyms around here
where yells from practictioners break the morning calm.
You see, the military reigned more than 30 years here by necessity,
that is, to counter constant threats from north Korea.
Korea has a 600,000 strong forces, conscripting and discharging
100,000 soldiers every year. They are all actually martial arts experts one
way
or another. Korea is filled with the martial art experts.
You think you can swagger and bully around this place of AEU, which I called
in one of my earlier posts a place where something is rotten, terrorizing
the people into submission and humiliation? And you think you can get away
with it? How long will the people let the reign of terror last
in this supposedly civilized place where people talk about questions
about the English language, which will certainly will have none of violence
any more than any civilized society will have?
That is the question I am asking the people of the AEU.
The rampancy of hooliganism has reached such a height here
that no people can walk away with their dignity unassailed.
The situation has few, if any, parallels in the annals of groups.
Who are they who disturb the peace? Robin Bignall, a constant annoyance.
I thought something has to be done about him once and for all.
Mark Wallace, a frog in the well, who doesn't know when he will blow up,
And Robert Lieblich, who might have well restrained them
but let them act the way they act.
Shape up.
CK
rewboss
bibn96$604ob$1...@ID-81485.news.uni-berlin.de...
[threats straight from the school yard]
And one of my best friend's brothers is something like a 9th Dan in Tae Kwon
Do. So what?
Maybe telling native English speakers that you know better than them how to
speak English is just not a good way to make friends and influence people?
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Hash: SHA1
"chance kim" typed:
> Is that all?
>
> You know what? I have a friend who is
> a weightlifter.
- - --snipped--
> Who are they who disturb the peace? Robin Bignall, a constant annoyance.
> I thought something has to be done about him once and for all.
> Mark Wallace, a frog in the well, who doesn't know when he will blow up,
> And Robert Lieblich, who might have well restrained them
> but let them act the way they act.
>
> Shape up.
Oh yeah! Can your body-builder friends masturbate, following a
nocturnal ejaculation?
______________________________________________________________
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Yours Forever in,
Cyberspace.
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Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>"chance kim" typed:
>
>> Is that all?
>>
>> You know what? I have a friend who is
>> a weightlifter.
>- - --snipped--
>> Who are they who disturb the peace? Robin Bignall, a constant annoyance.
>> I thought something has to be done about him once and for all.
>> Mark Wallace, a frog in the well, who doesn't know when he will blow up,
>> And Robert Lieblich, who might have well restrained them
>> but let them act the way they act.
>>
>> Shape up.
>
>
>Oh yeah! Can your body-builder friends masturbate, following a
>nocturnal ejaculation?
>
So "chance kim" finds Mark and I annoying, eh? That's really gonna cause us
some lost sleep. Robert, I think you'd better try restraining us and maybe
then he'll find eternal peace. One can hope.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
Martin Ambuhl
> So "chance kim" finds Mark and I annoying, eh?
Oy!
--
Martin Ambuhl
Mark Wallace
> Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
>> So "chance kim" finds Mark and I annoying, eh?
>
> Oy!
Ya beat me to the punch.
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Lieblich
>
> Martin Ambuhl wrote:
> > Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
> >
> >> So "chance kim" finds Mark and I annoying, eh?
> >
> > Oy!
>
> Ya beat me to the punch.
He finds I annoying, too. Just ask he.
--
Bob Lieblich
And I find he annoying
Mark Wallace
> Mark Wallace wrote:
>>
>> Martin Ambuhl wrote:
>>> Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>>>
>>>> So "chance kim" finds Mark and I annoying, eh?
>>>
>>> Oy!
>>
>> Ya beat me to the punch.
>
> He finds I annoying, too. Just ask he.
Great.
I shall now spend the rest of the day humming "Where be the blackbird be?";
I can just see it coming off.
I knew there was something I hated about this group.
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
chance kim
"rewboss" <rew...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Maybe telling native English speakers that you know better than them how
to
> speak English is just not a good way to make friends and influence people?
I never aspire to speak a tongue better than the natives,
much less to be equal to them.
None of them are even possible.
After all, there is no need for such.
I am only trying to confirm some of my observations.
I am barking at the wrong tree?
It may be true, if the tree is what it is now,
dominated by those who are as low as possible
as man and are lacking worthiness worthy
of the name of the place.
I hope not.
The group is read by the people of the whole world.
CK
chance kim
"Mark Wallace" <mwal...@dse.nl> wrote
> Great.
> I shall now spend the rest of the day humming "Where be the blackbird
be?";
> I can just see it coming off.
> I knew there was something I hated about this group.
There seems to be someone who can do little but spoil everything.
CK
chance kim
"Bill McCray" <billm...@mindspring.com> wrote
> For example, in that context "at all" can be substituted for "any".
> No, that doesn't follow.
I don't know how it doesn't follow.
How about this?
You can't improve it any>You can't improve it a bit>
You can't improve it if a bit>You can't improve it if any.
CK
Robert Lieblich
Not idiomatic.
Peter Beattie
>>You can't improve it if a bit>You can't improve it if any.
>
> Not idiomatic.
You've got my nomination for Understatement of the Week, Bob.
--
Peter
chance kim
"Peter Beattie" <HumbleSer...@web.de> wrote
> You've got my nomination for Understatement of the Week, Bob.
Then, your English is what? You can be as finical and fickle
as you can be. Isn't it at least passable?
CK
chance kim
"Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote
> Not idiomatic.
How about 'You can't improve it if any at all.'?
According to Otto Jespersen, the 'any' of 'if any'
means 'if any at all'.
CK
Robert Lieblich
>
> "Peter Beattie" <HumbleSer...@web.de> wrote
>
> > You've got my nomination for Understatement of the Week, Bob.
>
> Then, your English is what?
My English is idiomatic. Yours is not. Take the chip off your
shoulder and see if you can figure out what you can figure out.
> You can be as finical and fickle as you can be.
I don't wee what "fickle' has to do with it, but the point is that
when something is not idiomatic English, the kindest response (at
least to sane participants who don't fantasize about their brothers'
karate battles) is to point out the error. Since pointing out your
errors only triggers futile dispute, I have taken to pointing out
the error quite succinctly and then basically ducking. You can't
get much more succinct than "not idiomatic."
> Isn't it at least passable?
If you're talking about your latest attempts at using "if any," no,
they are not even passable. It appears that you are incapable of
understanding wby, so I won't waste your time with attempts at
explanation.
--
Bob Lieblich
Why do I bother?
Robert Lieblich
Sorry, I'm not playing. I don't need you yelling at me because you
don't like what I say. And those brothers of yours ...
--
Bob Lieblich
Ta
chance kim
"Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote
> > You can't improve it any>You can't improve it a bit>
> > You can't improve it if a bit>You can't improve it if any.
>
> Not idiomatic.
You are not saying 'not idiomatic'
even for 'You can't improve it if a bit', are you?
What step is 'not idiomatic' specifically?
CK
meirman
Although I am miffed at the way you've talked to others, afaik you
haven't included me yet, so I will play.
In alt.english.usage on Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:13:17 +0900 "chance kim"
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
>"Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote
>
>> > You can't improve it any>You can't improve it a bit>
The second is unlikely. I can't explain why. "You can't improve it
even a bit" is more likely.
>> > You can't improve it if a bit>You can't improve it if any.
>>
>> Not idiomatic.
>
>You are not saying 'not idiomatic'
>even for 'You can't improve it if a bit', are you?
Yes he is. Neither version in your second line is idiomatic. Why are
you determined to use "if any"? It has limited use, and not here.
>What step is 'not idiomatic' specifically?
>
>CK
>
>
meirman
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
>"Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote
>
>> Not idiomatic.
>
>How about 'You can't improve it if any at all.'?
No good.
You can't improve it much, if at all. Only use like that will be
acceptable.
>According to Otto Jespersen, the 'any' of 'if any'
>means 'if any at all'.
What makes you think you could use "if any" in that sentence? With or
without "at all".
>CK
Gang, should my last phrase above be followed by a question mark or a
period. (I know it's not a whole sentence.)
Mark Wallace
> In alt.english.usage on Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:45:02 +0900 "chance kim"
> <live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
>>
>> "Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote
>>
>>> Not idiomatic.
>>
>> How about 'You can't improve it if any at all.'?
>
> No good.
>
> You can't improve it much, if at all. Only use like that will be
> acceptable.
>
>> According to Otto Jespersen, the 'any' of 'if any'
>> means 'if any at all'.
>
> What makes you think you could use "if any" in that sentence? With or
> without "at all".
>
>> CK
>
> Gang, should my last phrase above be followed by a question mark or a
> period. (I know it's not a whole sentence.)
With; but you should replace the existing questionmark with a semi-colon or
an en-dash (or even a comma, if you're particularly fond of commas).
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> What makes you think you could use "if any" in that sentence? With or
> without "at all".
>
> period. (I know it's not a whole sentence.)
If the second bit simply clarifies the first bit, then No. If, on the
other hand, it's a supplementary question, then Yes.
In your example it clarifies, so No.
Matti
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Hash: SHA1
"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
> >Oh yeah! Can your body-builder friends masturbate, following a
> >nocturnal ejaculation?
> >
> So "chance kim" finds Mark and I annoying, eh? That's really gonna cause us
> some lost sleep. Robert, I think you'd better try restraining us and maybe
> then he'll find eternal peace. One can hope.
So, Dr Robin, do you want me to gather up our caporegimes to
go to the mattresses? Because I have come to know that Mr Kim
is a man no-one can reason with.
______________________________________________________________
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Yours Forever in,
Cyberspace.
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chance kim
"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote
> Although I am miffed at the way you've talked to others, afaik you
> haven't included me yet, so I will play.
Why should I include you there? I always value your opinion.
I say this, not that I want to see you drop a cake of cheese
for me. :-)
> The second is unlikely.
Although you say so, I cite from OED:
1865 Trollope Belton Est. iii. 26 The old tower out there.
It isn't changed a bit!
Incidentally, although '...You can't improve it any,' met
no opposition from this place, there seems some of it
even to that, seen as follows, quoted
from the American Heritage Dictionary:
USAGE NOTE: ... The related use of any to modify a verb
is considered informal. In writing, one should avoid sentences
like It didn't hurt any or If the child cries any, give her the bottle.
> "You can't improve it even a bit" is more likely.
That's exactly what I have in mind when I say,
'You can't improve it if a bit.'
Since I have yet to find a citation of the kind,
because I am a lazy boy,
I made up a story to explain my point:
'I have two friends of mine I hate. One of them
I have come to hate after this:
I was in hospital for a serious illness for which
my life was hanging in balance.
This friend didn't come to see me even once.
He hasn't come if once.
The other guy I hate for this:
Though he came to see me, he didn't say
a kind word even a bit.
He hasn't said a kind word if a bit.
You see, 'if' was used as an equivalent
of 'even'. Though I think so, I am not sure
whether it will resonate to you or not.
Though the examples may be crude,
I hope, the crudeness doesn't spoil
the understanding
of possible constructions.
You asked why I am determined to use 'if any'
in such a way as it might be used in a controversial way.
As I cited the two examples at the start of this thread,
they are there. The curiosity aroused
have to be satisfied. I can hardly let it remain unsatisfied.
Can you?
CK
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
>
>> >Oh yeah! Can your body-builder friends masturbate, following a
>> >nocturnal ejaculation?
>> >
>> So "chance kim" finds Mark and I annoying, eh? That's really gonna cause us
>> some lost sleep. Robert, I think you'd better try restraining us and maybe
>> then he'll find eternal peace. One can hope.
>
>
>So, Dr Robin, do you want me to gather up our caporegimes to
>go to the mattresses? Because I have come to know that Mr Kim
>is a man no-one can reason with.
>
Make him an offer he can't refuse, Ayaz.
Dr Robin Bignall
>Robert Lieblich wrote:
>> Mark Wallace wrote:
>>>
>>> Martin Ambuhl wrote:
>>>> Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So "chance kim" finds Mark and I annoying, eh?
>>>>
>>>> Oy!
>>>
>>> Ya beat me to the punch.
>>
>> He finds I annoying, too. Just ask he.
>
>Great.
>I shall now spend the rest of the day humming "Where be the blackbird be?";
>I can just see it coming off.
>I knew there was something I hated about this group.
Me is glad to see that all of you is awake.
Bill McCray
<live...@edunet4u.net> wrote:
>
> "Bill McCray" <billm...@mindspring.com> wrote
>
> > For example, in that context "at all" can be substituted for "any".
>
> > No, that doesn't follow.
>
> I don't know how it doesn't follow.
>
I don't have the post here any more, but reporting from memory, you
have removed your next line, which was something like "From this it
follows that for "if any", I can substitued "if at all". Just because
in one context "at all" can be substituted for "any" does not mean
that in another context that substitution is necessarily valid.
> How about this?
> You can't improve it any>You can't improve it a bit>
> You can't improve it if a bit>You can't improve it if any.
The first two are fine. Let's expand the last two sentences and see
what they say.
You can't improve it if you can improve it a bit.
You can't improve it if you can improve it any.
Neither of those is logical and neither of them makes any sense.
Bill
Bill McCray
<live...@edunet4u.net> wrote:
>
> "Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote
>
> > > You can't improve it any>You can't improve it a bit>
> > > You can't improve it if a bit>You can't improve it if any.
> >
> > Not idiomatic.
>
> You are not saying 'not idiomatic'
> even for 'You can't improve it if a bit', are you?
"You can't improve it, if you can improve it a bit."
No, it still makes no sense.
Bill
Bill McCray
<live...@edunet4u.net> wrote:
>
> "Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote
>
> > Not idiomatic.
>
> How about 'You can't improve it if any at all.'?
"You can't improve it, if you can improve it any at all."
Can you not see that "if you can improve it, you can't improve it" is
logically senseless?
> According to Otto Jespersen, the 'any' of 'if any'
> means 'if any at all'.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the current discussion.
Bill
Bill McCray
wrote:
> What makes you think you could use "if any" in that sentence? With or
> without "at all".
>
> Gang, should my last phrase above be followed by a question mark or a
> period. (I know it's not a whole sentence.)
If I said it, I wouldn't use a rising inflection at the end, so I
would use a period.
Bill
Bill McCray
<live...@edunet4u.net> wrote:
>
> "meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote
>
> > Although I am miffed at the way you've talked to others, afaik you
> > haven't included me yet, so I will play.
>
> Why should I include you there? I always value your opinion.
> I say this, not that I want to see you drop a cake of cheese
> for me. :-)
>
>
> > The second is unlikely.
>
> Although you say so, I cite from OED:
> 1865 Trollope Belton Est. iii. 26 The old tower out there.
> It isn't changed a bit!
That's perfectly fine, but you can't put "if" before "a bit" and still
have a sensible sentence.
>
> Incidentally, although '...You can't improve it any,' met
> no opposition from this place,
Because it is perfectly sensible.
> there seems some of it
> even to that, seen as follows, quoted
> from the American Heritage Dictionary:
>
> USAGE NOTE: ... The related use of any to modify a verb
> is considered informal. In writing, one should avoid sentences
> like It didn't hurt any or If the child cries any, give her the bottle.
>
> > "You can't improve it even a bit" is more likely.
>
> That's exactly what I have in mind when I say,
> 'You can't improve it if a bit.'
But "if" isn't a valid substitution for "even", at least in that
context.
> Since I have yet to find a citation of the kind,
> because I am a lazy boy,
> I made up a story to explain my point:
>
> 'I have two friends of mine I hate. One of them
> I have come to hate after this:
>
> I was in hospital for a serious illness for which
> my life was hanging in balance.
>
> This friend didn't come to see me even once.
> He hasn't come if once.
"He hasn't come to see me, if he came to see me once."
No, it doesn't make any sense.
> The other guy I hate for this:
>
> Though he came to see me, he didn't say
> a kind word even a bit.
> He hasn't said a kind word if a bit.
"He hasn't said a kind word, if he said a bit of kind words."
No, not sensible.
> You see, 'if' was used as an equivalent
> of 'even'.
But that isn't a valid substitution there.
> Though I think so, I am not sure
> whether it will resonate to you or not.
> Though the examples may be crude,
> I hope, the crudeness doesn't spoil
> the understanding
> of possible constructions.
>
> You asked why I am determined to use 'if any'
> in such a way as it might be used in a controversial way.
>
> As I cited the two examples at the start of this thread,
> they are there. The curiosity aroused
> have to be satisfied. I can hardly let it remain unsatisfied.
> Can you?
I don't recall the original statements, but they must have also been
bad English. We have all been telling you that that construction
doesn't work in English, at least as it is currently practiced.
Please, take our word for it. It is a waste of your time to continue
to pursue the matter and a waste of our time to respond, if you
continue to ignore what we are telling you.
Bill
meirman
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
>"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote
>
>> Although I am miffed at the way you've talked to others, afaik you
>> haven't included me yet, so I will play.
>
>Why should I include you there? I always value your opinion.
Fine. Great. Please try to be nicer to the others.
>I say this, not that I want to see you drop a cake of cheese
>for me. :-)
>
>
> > The second is unlikely.
>
>Although you say so, I cite from OED:
>1865 Trollope Belton Est. iii. 26 The old tower out there.
>It isn't changed a bit!
That's fine but it's different from the sentence under discussion.
You snipped the version under discussion, so I'll let it go at that.
>
>Incidentally, although '...You can't improve it any,' met
>no opposition from this place, there seems some of it
>even to that, seen as follows, quoted
>from the American Heritage Dictionary:
>
>USAGE NOTE: ... The related use of any to modify a verb
>is considered informal. In writing, one should avoid sentences
>like It didn't hurt any or If the child cries any, give her the bottle.
>
>> "You can't improve it even a bit" is more likely.
>
>That's exactly what I have in mind when I say,
>'You can't improve it if a bit.'
It doesn't matter what you have in mind. The "if" doesn't belong
there. "Even" is an adverb or something. "If" is a conjunction.
That alone indicates you can't substitute one for an another. Maybe
you can find some dictionary entry that shows "if" as an adverb too,
in some use that I don't think of now. But that wouldn't change your
sentence. Which is wrong.
>Since I have yet to find a citation of the kind,
>because I am a lazy boy,
>I made up a story to explain my point:
>
>'I have two friends of mine I hate. One of them
>I have come to hate after this:
>
>I was in hospital for a serious illness for which
>my life was hanging in balance.
>
>This friend didn't come to see me even once.
>He hasn't come if once.
The "if" doesn't belong there. Omit it and it will be fine.
>The other guy I hate for this:
>
>Though he came to see me, he didn't say
>a kind word even a bit.
It should be "he didn't say a kind word, not even a bit." Although
bit is not the right word to follow "kind word".
>He hasn't said a kind word if a bit.
This is wrong.
>You see, 'if' was used as an equivalent
>of 'even'.
But it's not.
>Though I think so, I am not sure
>whether it will resonate to you or not.
>Though the examples may be crude,
>I hope, the crudeness doesn't spoil
>the understanding
>of possible constructions.
They confirm what I and others have said. You have to stop using
"if".
>You asked why I am determined to use 'if any'
>in such a way as it might be used in a controversial way.
It's not controversial. That would mean there was at least one decent
argument in its favor. As you have been using it, it's just plain
wrong.
>As I cited the two examples at the start of this thread,
>they are there. The curiosity aroused
>have to be satisfied. I can hardly let it remain unsatisfied.
>Can you?
I'm satisfied. I can't discuss the first example in detail since you
snipped the sentence you thought it was similar to.
meirman
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>According to Otto Jespersen, the 'any' of 'if any'
>means 'if any at all'.
BTW, I'm sure he didn't say this. What he must have said is that the
'any' of 'if any' means 'any at all'. You can't keep adding if's
where they don't belong.
And if Otto did say it as you have written, he's wrong. Who is this
Otto guy, anyhow?
meirman
<mwal...@dse.nl> posted:
This is a question I've had elsewhere on the net. Usually the first
question is important in itself, maybe more important than with the
clarification. (How can that be? I don't remember. :) ) I probably
would in formal writing, but in newsgroups and on lists I often want
people to stop and answer the first question. People are so good at
ignoring and avoiding questions, I try various things to get them to
answer. :)
Thanks to all.
chance kim
"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote
> >He hasn't said a kind word if a bit.
>
> This is wrong.
I wished him to say a kind word to me, so much
so that, I'd say to myself, 'It's Ok if he said a kind word
to me if he didn't mean it,'
or 'It's Ok if he said it perfunctorily.'
So, I might have complained:
'He hasn't said a kind word if perfunctorily.'
Similarly, I could have said,
'He hasn't said a kind word if a bit.'
Couldn't I?
CK
meirman
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
>"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote
>
> > >He hasn't said a kind word if a bit.
>>
>> This is wrong.
>
>I wished him to say a kind word to me, so much
>so that, I'd say to myself, 'It's Ok if he said a kind word
>to me if he didn't mean it,'
>or 'It's Ok if he said it perfunctorily.'
>
> So, I might have complained:
> 'He hasn't said a kind word if perfunctorily.'
Wrong.
>
>Similarly, I could have said,
>'He hasn't said a kind word if a bit.'
Wrong.
>Couldn't I?
You could say it but it would be wrong. Didn't you ask about this
very same sentence before?
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Hash: SHA1
"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
> >So, Dr Robin, do you want me to gather up our caporegimes to
> >go to the mattresses? Because I have come to know that Mr Kim
> >is a man no-one can reason with.
> >
> Make him an offer he can't refuse, Ayaz.
I suppose I have already. Only, what I said to him went in one
ear and out the other. I'm telling you no-one can possibly
reason with Mr Kim.
______________________________________________________________
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Yours Forever in,
Cyberspace.
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Bill McCray
<resi...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
>
> > >So, Dr Robin, do you want me to gather up our caporegimes to
> > >go to the mattresses? Because I have come to know that Mr Kim
> > >is a man no-one can reason with.
> > >
> > Make him an offer he can't refuse, Ayaz.
>
>
> I suppose I have already. Only, what I said to him went in one
> ear and out the other. I'm telling you no-one can possibly
> reason with Mr Kim.
Maybe we could send his brothers to talk to him about it.
Bill
chance kim
"Bill McCray" <billm...@mindspring.com> wrote >
> > This friend didn't come to see me even once.
> > He hasn't come if once.
>
> "He hasn't come to see me, if he came to see me once."
>
> No, it doesn't make any sense.
I am riding an underground when I realize
that the train seems to be going the wrong direction
although it is going the right direction
so I give a little bit of twist to my mind
when my orientation is set right.
Likewise, why don't we give a little bit of twist
to the way how we see a sentence?
X 'He hasn't come to see me, if he came to see me once.'
O 'He hasn't come to see me, if it be once."
CK
meirman
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
This is the police. A call has come in that someone has taken over
CK's computer. No witnesses so far contacted recall his being so
persistent, or not believing what he was told.
Please put your hands up and walk backwards to your door. Then
continue out of the house. Now, lie face down with your arms out.
An officer will be by soon to cuff you and interrogate you about the
computer you are using.
Bill McCray
I guess I'll just assume that you aren't interested in learning about
the English language.
Bill
chance kim
"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote
> This is the police. A call has come in that someone has taken over
> CK's computer. No witnesses so far contacted recall his being so
> persistent, or not believing what he was told.
>
> Please put your hands up and walk backwards to your door. Then
> continue out of the house. Now, lie face down with your arms out.
>
> An officer will be by soon to cuff you and interrogate you about the
> computer you are using.
Police brutality! Police brutality!
I am going to sue you
for violating my basic rights
to the freedom of expression.
Somebody may have complained
my computer is a source
from which some spam mail originate.
But it is not so. If anything, he or others
can plonk my mail or choose not read.
But they can't take my computer away.
CK
chance kim
"Bill McCray" <billm...@mindspring.com> wrote
> > X 'He hasn't come to see me, if he came to see me once.'
> > O 'He hasn't come to see me, if it be once."
>
> I guess I'll just assume that you aren't interested in learning about
> the English language.
How is it that you can't see my point?
The 'it' of the second example may well be
'the hoped-for frequency of his visit to me'.
CK
chance kim
"chance kim" <live...@edunet4u.net> wrote
> > This is the police. A call has come in that someone has taken over
> > CK's computer. No witnesses so far contacted recall his being so
> > persistent, or not believing what he was told.
>
> Police brutality! Police brutality!
>Wed, 9 Jan 2002:
>chance kim wrote:
> Can't one say, 'He doesn't lift a finger if a bit' in the same sense
> of 'He doesn't lift a finger at all'?
>
>No, I'm afraid not. And I'm afraid that I can't think of any phrase
>containing the word "bit" that sounds even slightly idiomatic in this
>context.
>
>That doesn't do a bit to help the OP. Well, it does, but why should mere
>accuracy get in the way of a good example?
>Regards, John Woodgate, http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
That's it. It ended so there. I could not pursue the question
further for one reason or another.
But the opinion of 'a good exmaple'
sustains me to pursue the question,
believing there might be an alternative
than a negative one you are giving.
CK
meirman
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
>"Bill McCray" <billm...@mindspring.com> wrote
>
>> > X 'He hasn't come to see me, if he came to see me once.'
>> > O 'He hasn't come to see me, if it be once."
>>
>> I guess I'll just assume that you aren't interested in learning about
>> the English language.
>
>How is it that you can't see my point?
This is equivalent to "How is if it that you can't see my point?"
Or, "How it is that you if can't see my point?"
Or, "How is it that you can't see my if point?"
Or, "How is it that if you can't see my point?"
Or, "How if it is that you can't see my point?"
Or, "How is it if that you can't see my point?"
Or, "How is it that if you can't see my point?"
Or, "How is it that you can't if see my point?"
Or, "How is it that you can't see if my point?"
These are all equivalent.
>The 'it' of the second example may well be
>'the hoped-for frequency of his visit to me'.
>
>CK
>
>
>
>
chance kim
"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote
> Or, "How is it that you can't see if my point?"
>
> These are all equivalent.
You are kidding? No, it can't be.
CK
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
>
>> >So, Dr Robin, do you want me to gather up our caporegimes to
>> >go to the mattresses? Because I have come to know that Mr Kim
>> >is a man no-one can reason with.
>> >
>> Make him an offer he can't refuse, Ayaz.
>
>
>I suppose I have already. Only, what I said to him went in one
>ear and out the other.
Yeah, even lead doesn't work on some people. There's nothing to hit between
the ears.
>I'm telling you no-one can possibly
>reason with Mr Kim.
>
Leave it to no-one, then.
meirman
<live...@edunet4u.net> posted:
>
>"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote
>
>> Or, "How is it that you can't see if my point?"
>
Sorry. I forgot to say that, indeed, we can all see your point.
Then I illustrated.
>> These are all equivalent.
I gave 9 examples and they were all equivalent in that they were all
wrong. Just like your two examples in the prior post were equivalent,
in that they were similar and both wrong.
So that we see your point does not mean we will think your point is
correct.
>You are kidding? No, it can't be.
We think you are kidding when you bring up all these phrases with "if"
that make no sense. You've been shown one or two examples of good
sentences with "if" and that's all you're going to get.
Bill McCray
Because your point is senseless, as has been shown you many times.
Bill
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Hash: SHA1
"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
> >I'm telling you no-one can possibly
> >reason with Mr Kim.
> >
> Leave it to no-one, then.
But that is the problem: no-one is sleeping with the fishes.
Mr Kim and his body-builder friends already took no-one out.
_______________
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Yours Forever in,
Cyberspace.
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Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
>
>> >I'm telling you no-one can possibly
>> >reason with Mr Kim.
>> >
>> Leave it to no-one, then.
>
>
>But that is the problem: no-one is sleeping with the fishes.
>Mr Kim and his body-builder friends already took no-one out.
>
My software lets no Korean spam through...
No-one gets zapped.
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Hash: SHA1
"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
> >But that is the problem: no-one is sleeping with the fishes.
> >Mr Kim and his body-builder friends already took no-one out.
> >
> My software lets no Korean spam through...
> No-one gets zapped.
But, still, be careful! You never know when it might
make its way in.
_______________
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Yours Forever in,
Cyberspace.
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