Yours faithfully vs. Yours sincerely
Pete
Somebody told me the other day that "Yours sincerely," should only be used
in letters to a person whom you address with his or her name (e.g. "Dear Mr
Bateman,") whereas "Yours faithfully," should be used when you don't know
the addressee's name and start your letter along with something in the way
of "Dear Sir,", "Dear Madam," or "Dear Madams and Sirs,".
As a non-native speaker of English I had never heard of that rule. Can you
confirm it?
And by the way: Are there other formal (!) ways to end a letter?
Thanks for your help!
Pete
Steve Howarth
"Pete" <wolff...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:d0c42e$3ap$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Hi everybody!
>
> Somebody told me the other day that "Yours sincerely," should only be used
> in letters to a person whom you address with his or her name (e.g. "Dear
Mr
> Bateman,") whereas "Yours faithfully," should be used when you don't know
> the addressee's name and start your letter along with something in the way
> of "Dear Sir,", "Dear Madam," or "Dear Madams and Sirs,".
>
> As a non-native speaker of English I had never heard of that rule. Can you
> confirm it?
>
Yes - that's what I've always understood, and written (as an English,
native-English speaker).
> And by the way: Are there other formal (!) ways to end a letter?
>
"Yours sincerely" and "Yours faithfully" are the only formal endings I ever
use.
> Thanks for your help!
> Pete
>
>
Steve Howarth
ray o'hara
There is no rule, you may use whatever you want. The only language
rules are those of syntax and grammar.
Don Phillipson
> And by the way: Are there other formal (!) ways to end a letter?
See business style books of the 1950s with
specimen letters, some of which end:
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
your humble servant . . .
-- which may be one reason business style
books were generally abandoned in the 1980s.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Alan Jones
"Steve Howarth" <ma...@stevehowarth.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d0cbpm$pi7$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Agreed generally as regards British English, though "Yours truly" is
possible for a letter starting "Dear Mr X": it's more formal than "Yours
sincerely".
"Dear Madams and Sirs" is plain wrong. The convention is to use "Dear Sirs".
One way round the problem is to write "Dear Members" etc or to address your
letter to "The Chair[man]" or "The Secretary" or whatever.You then need to
check, perhaps by telephone, the name and sex of that individual and the
appropriate manner of address. Any letter addressed to "Dear Sir or Madam"
goes immediately, unread, into my wastepaper basket: I believe that a letter
sent to me should be addressed to me individually. Advertisements should not
be in letter format.
Alan Jones
Daniel James
> > And by the way: Are there other formal (!) ways to end a letter?
>
> See business style books of the 1950s with
> specimen letters, some of which end:
> I have the honour to be,
> Sir,
> your humble servant . . .
> -- which may be one reason business style
> books were generally abandoned in the 1980s.
I have a letter here, received in the last year, the text of which
(details elided) is:
| Dear Sir,
|
| We beg to inform you that your esteemed order for ... is now
| ready, and await the favour of a call at your earliest
| convenience.
|
| We are, Dear Sir
| Your obedient servants,
| ...
There are as many ways to write as letter as to skin a cat.
Cheers,
Daniel.
Cece
Business etiquette is another area with pondian differences. An
American business letter's complimentary close is most often
"Sincerely." Now, I have been told that the rest of the world
distrusts that word, and that letters sent to businesses in other
countries should use "Cordially." But that's been argued about too.
Cece
ray o'hara
Cece wrote:
> Business etiquette is another area with pondian differences. An
> American business letter's complimentary close is most often
> "Sincerely." Now, I have been told that the rest of the world
> distrusts that word, and that letters sent to businesses in other
> countries should use "Cordially." But that's been argued about too.
>
> Cece
The only time people mean is when they get to use words like
"Asshole!" or "Crazy Fuckhead!", courtesy is faking it.
nullp...@verizon.net
I'm puzzled. You did not say "Assholes, the only time people mean .."
nor did you call me a "Crazy Fuckhead" anywhere in your post.
Did you sincerely mean what you say in this post, and simply forgot to
use the indicia of sincerity (asshole, crazy fuckhead, etc.), or are
you joking?
And what am I to make of a reply to this post if it should start out
"Asshole, no one ever says what they mean on usenet!" Is that a
sincere statement, as shown by starting with indicia of sincerity, or
an insincere one as the substance of the remainder of the sentence
would indicate?
Joanne Marinelli
"ray o'hara" <re...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1110249707.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> The only time people mean is when they get to use words like
> "Asshole!" or "Crazy Fuckhead!", courtesy is faking it.
>
they use invectives..." Which isn't quite the case. Formality, orally or in
written form, has a strategic aim.
Joanne
Adrian Bailey
news:BvrWd.198817$68.5...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "Steve Howarth" <ma...@stevehowarth.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:d0cbpm$pi7$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Pete" <wolff...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > news:d0c42e$3ap$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
> >> Hi everybody!
> >>
> >> Somebody told me the other day that "Yours sincerely," should only be
> >> used
> >> in letters to a person whom you address with his or her name (e.g.
"Dear
> > Mr
> >> Bateman,") whereas "Yours faithfully," should be used when you don't
know
> >> the addressee's name and start your letter along with something in the
> >> way
> >> of "Dear Sir,", "Dear Madam," or "Dear Madams and Sirs,".
The last looks odd to me. In formal situations the plural of madam is
"mesdames".
> >> As a non-native speaker of English I had never heard of that rule. Can
> >> you
> >> confirm it?
> >
> > Yes - that's what I've always understood, and written (as an English,
> > native-English speaker).
Yes, it's correct.
> >> And by the way: Are there other formal (!) ways to end a letter?
> >
> > "Yours sincerely" and "Yours faithfully" are the only formal endings I
> > ever
> > use.
>
> Agreed generally as regards British English, though "Yours truly" is
> possible for a letter starting "Dear Mr X": it's more formal than "Yours
> sincerely".
MS Word keeps wanting me to end formal letters "Yours truly" but I just
assumed it must be some American convention. In the UK, the two
possibilities are as stated in the OP. The rather flowery "Yours truly" is
reserved for informal letters, like "Yours aye" and many others.
> "Dear Madams and Sirs" is plain wrong. The convention is to use "Dear
Sirs".
I prefer plain "Sirs".
> One way round the problem is to write "Dear Members" etc or to address
your
> letter to "The Chair[man]" or "The Secretary" or whatever.You then need to
> check, perhaps by telephone, the name and sex of that individual and the
> appropriate manner of address. Any letter addressed to "Dear Sir or Madam"
> goes immediately, unread, into my wastepaper basket: I believe that a
letter
> sent to me should be addressed to me individually. Advertisements should
not
> be in letter format.
Although I agree that I prefer to receive letters that open "Dear Mr (& Mrs)
Bailey"**, it's perfectly normal and polite for members of the public to
open letters with "Dear sir or madam" when writing to companies and other
organisations.
**It is non-standard to use an initial, i.e. "Dear Mr A Bailey" or "Dear A
Bailey". I assume that letters that open in this way are either written by
machines or by foreigners.
Adrian
nullp...@verizon.net
wrote:
>And by the way: Are there other formal (!) ways to end a letter?
Conventions about salutations and complimentary closes in letters are
subject to changes in style as time goes by and also to lack of
universal agreement on the various conventions in use. Because of
this, you should generally rely on modern style manuals produced by
the foreign office of the country where the addressee lives to
determine what generally accepted forms are currently in use there.
If you can't get the foreign office's guidance on that, various style
manuals produced by other departments of government may be on-line.
See, for instance,
http://www.usgs.gov/usgs-manual/handbook/hb/431-2-h/chap4.html for
reasonably well accepted conventions in the US.
Be aware that you can find all sorts of guidance in commercially
produced correspondence formularies or other books, and these may
include archaic uses which are included to make the book seem very
detailed and better than a rival correspondence formulary. Older
formularies also tend to have more detailed guidance than is used
today. Using either of these sources can cause trouble if you use an
archaic form without knowing what rules or implications attended that
particular form, while the party addressed either does know these or
discovers them by research. For instance, it is no longer in fashion
to require certain correspondence of the most formal variety, if
politely written, to open with "My Dear Sir:" and end with "Very Truly
Yours". In fact, modernly only the first word of any complimentary
close is capitalized, and the salutation form "My Dear ____" is not
found in contemporary formularies that I've seen except for when
writing to a British Duke. If you tried to use this matched
salutation and complimentary close today in any situation but those
that the archaic convention designated as occassions where this form
was polite, the party addressed might realize that the letter may well
have had the salutation "Dear person I am forced to write to:" and the
complimentary close "Hoping I never hear from you again, I remain,".
What is a polite form when called for is usually insulting in an
occassion not calling for it if the form is a very formal and stiff
one, as an undue and excessive level of formality expresses hostility,
at least in US usage.
Archaic forms or uses often persist in legal correspondence, and a
complimentary close popular with some U.S. lawyers is "Very Truly
Yours," or "Very truly yours,". It is never used with a salutation
"My Dear _____", though, and so it is sort of a partial remnant of an
old form retained by many lawyers, who often retain usages that were
abandoned by society decades or centuries ago. I once encountered a
deviant use of this convention which I thought captured the essence of
the "My Dear Sir:/Very Truly Yours" form in spirit while violating it
in fact. It started out "My Dear Sir:" and closed "Conduct Yourself
Accordingly,". True, threats ought always be expressed in the
accepted formality to have every measure of apparent legitimacy to
them, but it is enjoyable to encounter a creative expression of a
threat by a daring alteration of proper form. Pity the creativity was
wasted as the matter corresponded on was small beer.