"Thou art" vs "Thou arest"
Ryszard Chojnowski
This is my first post to this group, so first of all
I'd like to say "Hi!" to everybody
Could somebody explain the difference between
"thou art" and "thou arest" forms? To be honest
I've always used the first one and spotted the latter
only in "Leaves of Grass" by Whitman.
Thanks in advance for any help
Ryslaw
Robert Lieblich
"Thou" is not current English, except in certain specific contexts.
It was once the standard second-person singular pronoun, however,
and it had its own inflected verbs to go with it. In the nominative
it was, and still is, "Thou art." You will see and hear other forms
today, because people have lost the knack of using these old forms,
but only "art" is correct with "Thou." Standard English does not
have a word or word form "arest." I don't know the passage you
refer to, so I don't know what Whitman was trying to do, but either
he was going for some very special sort of effect or he simply got
the word wrong.[1]
[1] Other verbs used with "thou" do end in "st." "Thou hast," "thou
didst." It's possible Whitman had these in mind. But he was still
wrong.
--
Bob Lieblich
Right, Mark?
Ryszard Chojnowski
> "Thou" is not current English, except in certain specific contexts.
> It was once the standard second-person singular pronoun, however,
> and it had its own inflected verbs to go with it. In the nominative
> it was, and still is, "Thou art." You will see and hear other forms
> today, because people have lost the knack of using these old forms,
> but only "art" is correct with "Thou." Standard English does not
> have a word or word form "arest." I don't know the passage you
> refer to, so I don't know what Whitman was trying to do, but either
> he was going for some very special sort of effect or he simply got
> the word wrong.[1]
I know that "thou" is not current English, my concern was the difference
between "art" and "arest". Thanks for clarification.
I've just found that "arest" is the old form for "stop", "halt".
> [1] Other verbs used with "thou" do end in "st." "Thou hast," "thou
> didst." It's possible Whitman had these in mind. But he was still
> wrong.
I've also found it in some other places. And most probably the "arest"
form was created in the process of backformation. Somebody
took the "-st" ending and added it to modern English "are" form,
creating "arest". That would also explain the presence of "amst" form,
i.e "I amst".
At least now I know that the forms are wrong :)
Thanks again for help.
Ryslaw
[Ad. 1] That
Odysseus
>
> I've just found that "arest" is the old form for "stop", "halt".
>
that meaning -- its current uses tend to be more figurative than
strictly literal -- but it's by no means archaic either. An "arrestor"
is a mechanical device that stops an engine or the like.
The word is still very commonly used to mean "take into custody", as in
"Police officers arrested the suspect after a short pursuit." It also
appears as an adjective (?) in the fixed expression "under arrest",
meaning "in (police) custody".
--Odysseus
Ryszard Chojnowski
> Are you sure that isn't "arrest"?
No, it definitely isn't "arrest"
Regards
Ryslaw
Raymond S. Wise
For what it's worth, *The Century Dictionary,* under its entry for
"be" gives as an alternate form for the second person singular
"sometimes _beest._" They also give as an alternate form for the
second person plural "sometimes _be._" I presume that a person who
would use one of these alternate forms would use the other. I also
presume, since the Century doesn't label them as "corruptions" (and it
came from an era when such a label was used) that it considered their
use to be correct.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
George Hardy
> "Thou" is not current English, except in certain specific contexts.
You need to get to know more Quakers and Mennonites.
GFH
John Dean
"George Hardy" <geo...@mail.rlc.net> wrote in message
news:7c7350d8.02020...@posting.google.com...
And Yorkists and Lancastrians, sithee
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
M.J.Powell
de...@frag.lineone.net> writes
And denizens of the Five Towns.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Robert Lieblich
>
> > Are you sure that isn't "arrest"?
>
> No, it definitely isn't "arrest"
The OED says it's another way of spelling "arrest, now obsolete.
(Also another spelling of "erst.") Surely you wouldn't insist that
"color" and "colour" are different words.
--
Bob Lieblich
Thank heaven for OED access
Robert Lieblich
That's one context.
--
Bob Lieblich
Context uber alles
George Hardy
Do these people use the singular (thou) and the plural (ye)
and all of the inflected forms and pronouns?
GFH
Ryszard Chojnowski
> The OED says it's another way of spelling "arrest, now obsolete.
> (Also another spelling of "erst.")
Well, on second thought I have to admit you're right. Thanks for
again for help.
Regards
Ryslaw
meirman
Chojnowski" <r...@nie.lubi.spamu.dzis> posted:
>Hi,
>
>This is my first post to this group, so first of all
>I'd like to say "Hi!" to everybody
>
>Could somebody explain the difference between
>"thou art" and "thou arest" forms? To be honest
Did Whitman need an extra syllable, for the meter.
>I've always used the first one and spotted the latter
>only in "Leaves of Grass" by Whitman.
>
>Thanks in advance for any help
>
>Ryslaw
>
>
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
John Dean
"George Hardy" <geo...@mail.rlc.net> wrote in message
news:7c7350d8.02020...@posting.google.com...
> "M.J.Powell" <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<7+C8lfAb...@pickmere.demon.co.uk>...
> > In article <a3u5i9$9i$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean <john-
> > de...@frag.lineone.net> writes
> > >
> > >"George Hardy" <geo...@mail.rlc.net> wrote in message
> > >news:7c7350d8.02020...@posting.google.com...
> > >> Robert Lieblich <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:<3C61BBB8...@Verizon.net>...
> > >>
> > >> > "Thou" is not current English, except in certain specific contexts.
> > >>
> > >> You need to get to know more Quakers and Mennonites.
> > >>
> > >> GFH
> > >
> > >And Yorkists and Lancastrians, sithee
> >
> > And denizens of the Five Towns.
>
> Do these people use the singular (thou) and the plural (ye)
> and all of the inflected forms and pronouns?
>
significant number use 'thou' and 'thee'. Of course, few have studied any
grammar, philology or linguistics so they don't *know* they're using
inflected forms ....
david56
>
> In alt.english.usage on Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:34:42 +0100 "Ryszard
> Chojnowski" <r...@nie.lubi.spamu.dzis> posted:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >This is my first post to this group, so first of all
> >I'd like to say "Hi!" to everybody
> >
> >Could somebody explain the difference between
> >"thou art" and "thou arest" forms? To be honest
>
> Did Whitman need an extra syllable, for the meter.
Can I have another 50p for the meter?
--
David
The address is valid today, but I will change it at to keep ahead of the
spammers.
Love All, Serve All.
Barcelona, London, Ottawa, Orlando, Edinburgh, San Diego, Tijuana,
Manchester, Hollywood, San Francisco.
George Hardy
> 'ye' is rarely heard - usually at Christmas.
Sure. "God rest ye merry gentlemen." That does not meet
my standard. Nor does "Thou art with me". "thy", "thine"
are also used in the King James Bible.
There is a large Mennonite community here, but it is hard to
hear their use of "thou" and "ye" because these are 'familiar'
terms, not for outsiders like me.
GFH
George Hardy
> 'ye' is rarely heard - usually at Christmas.
Sure. "God rest ye merry gentlemen." That does not meet
david56
>
> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message news:<a40psl$llf$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
> > 'ye' is rarely heard - usually at Christmas.
>
> Sure. "God rest ye merry gentlemen." That does not meet
> my standard.
It's a propagated mistake. It should be "God Rest You Merry,
Gentlemen", noting the comma.
Polar
<bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>meirman wrote:
>>
>> In alt.english.usage on Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:34:42 +0100 "Ryszard
>> Chojnowski" <r...@nie.lubi.spamu.dzis> posted:
>>
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >This is my first post to this group, so first of all
>> >I'd like to say "Hi!" to everybody
>> >
>> >Could somebody explain the difference between
>> >"thou art" and "thou arest" forms? To be honest
>>
>> Did Whitman need an extra syllable, for the meter.
>
>Can I have another 50p for the meter?
No, because you didn't say "MAY" I have ...
I learned this the hard way back in grade school.
When I raised my hand and asked "Can I go to the basement" [1],
the teacher let me writhe until I figured out -- or she told me,
disremember which -- that I should have said "may". I was
physically capable of doing it, but needed permission.
Burned into my brain at a tender age.
[1] That's where the facilities were located.
--
Polar
david56
Although you are utterly right and I am a pitiful sinner, I will attempt
to justify my transgression.
When we were young, money was scarce. Actually there was no 50p, but
the gas meter took shillings, I think. It was perfectly reasonable to
put the question in the form I gave above because it isn't asking for
permission, but enquiring whether it is possible. If there are no more
shillings then I CAN'T have one.
This seems to be very different from asking for a biscuit which you know
exists. Thinking about it, prefixing the question with "please" makes
the "may" mandatory, but it is possible for a "can" question to make
sense.
Alan Jones
"Ryszard Chojnowski" <r...@nie.lubi.spamu.dzis> wrote in message
news:a3sas3$i8b$1...@news.tpi.pl...
> Hi,
>
> This is my first post to this group, so first of all
> I'd like to say "Hi!" to everybody
>
> Could somebody explain the difference between
> "thou art" and "thou arest" forms? To be honest
> I've always used the first one and spotted the latter
> only in "Leaves of Grass" by Whitman.
I have just searched the Leaves of Grass text online and can't find "arest"
in it. Could you give an exact reference, including the date of the version
you are reading?
Alan Jones
Matti Lamprhey
> "Ryszard Chojnowski" <r...@nie.lubi.spamu.dzis> wrote...
> >
> > Could somebody explain the difference between
> > "thou art" and "thou arest" forms? To be honest
> > I've always used the first one and spotted the latter
> > only in "Leaves of Grass" by Whitman.
>
> I have just searched the Leaves of Grass text online and can't find
"arest"
> in it. Could you give an exact reference, including the date of the
version
> you are reading?
Aye, lad, thou certainly can't be arest.
Matti
Ryszard Chojnowski
> I have just searched the Leaves of Grass text online and can't find
"arest"
> in it. Could you give an exact reference, including the date of the
version
> you are reading?
Sorry, it was my mistake. When I was lookig for occurences of the
"thou arest" phrase I used www.google.com and simply etered it in
the search window. I got a result stating that "arest thou" appears in
"Leaves of Grass". I didn't follow the link to the page (and I should
have) and made an assumption that the phrase did appear in the
poem.
I was obviously wrong.
When I recently checked the page, it turned out to be "Darest thou"
with "D" shown as .gif image, and that's why google had found only
"arest thou", omitting the "D" letter.
Sound funny it may, but I do feel quite stupit now.
Sorry for any trouble.
Regards
Ryslaw
John Dean
news:<a40psl$llf$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
> > 'ye' is rarely heard - usually at Christmas.
>
> Sure. "God rest ye merry gentlemen." That does not meet
> my standard. Nor does "Thou art with me". "thy", "thine"
> are also used in the King James Bible.
Can't get anything past you, eh, George? Bet you played in goal in the Ice
Hockey Team.
What is your standard? I am a Lancastrian by birth, I occasionally use the
forms 'thee' and 'thou'. I have friends and relatives back home who use them
more frequently (though not all the time). I have known people who used them
quite often. But I suppose if I produced a wav. file you could claim it had
been put on just for the occasion.
Though here's what seems to be a scholarly little page examining dialect and
speech in one part of Lancashire :-
http://www.hausarbeiten.de/rd/archiv/anglistik/angl-text37/angl-text37.shtml
Would you believe me if I said Bolton is not an isolated example?
Raymond S. Wise
Do you agree with me that the teacher knew exactly the meaning you
intended when you asked the question--that is, that you were asking
permission? If so, then her calculated cruelty was unconscionable.
Raymond S. Wise
> George Hardy wrote:
> >
> > Robert Lieblich <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3C61BBB8...@Verizon.net>...
> >
> > > "Thou" is not current English, except in certain specific contexts.
> >
> > You need to get to know more Quakers and Mennonites.
>
> That's one context.
I don't know if any Quakers continue use "thee" as part of their plain
speech (other parts of plain speech, such as refusing to refer to a
monarch as "His Majesty" or "Her Majesty," presumably remain). But the
last Quakers who did use "thee" used it for both the nominative and
the accusative.
In other words, we would not expect such Quakers to use "thou," except
when quoting the Bible.
A short paper on the subject is at
http://www.sls.hawaii.edu/bley-vroman/thee.txt
The author points out a further change, involving the replacement of
second person singular verb forms by third person singular verb forms.
Polar
Wise) wrote:
Of course she did! That's the whole point of the story.
She was teaching me the difference, "her way".
--
Polar