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rhyme scheme
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lcy
May 20, 2012, 11:52:02 PM5/20/12
to
Dear all,
As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
scheme is. Thank you very much!
Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.
Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling in the sky the message He is Dead,
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves.
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.
He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song:
I though that love would last forever, I was wrong.
The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.
In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
Thank you very much!
As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
scheme is. Thank you very much!
Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.
Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling in the sky the message He is Dead,
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves.
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.
He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song:
I though that love would last forever, I was wrong.
The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.
In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
Thank you very much!
Uncle Ben
May 20, 2012, 11:59:44 PM5/20/12
to
Mark Brader
May 21, 2012, 1:18:46 AM5/21/12
to
L.C. Yiu:
> In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
I would have described that as "aabb". Rhyme schemes are normally
only given for individual verses.
> However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
For many people, such as me, "one" is pronounced exactly like "won"
and rhymes with "con", "don", "gone", "upon", and "yon" -- it does
not sound like "wun" and rhyme with "done", "fun", "gun", "pun",
and "sun". Apparently the person who claimed that ghii was correct
was one of those.
I don't know if Auden pronounced "one" and "sun" as rhyming. But
even if he didn't, that just means he chose to violate his own aabb
rhyme scheme by using an approximate rhyme instead of an exact one.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto But that's what all the other
m...@vex.net individualists are doing!
My text in this article is in the public domain.
> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
> scheme is. Thank you very much!
> Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
> Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
> Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
> Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.
>
> Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
> Scribbling in the sky the message He is Dead,
> Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves.
> Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.
>
> He was my North, my South, my East and West,
> My working week and my Sunday rest
> My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song:
> I though that love would last forever, I was wrong.
>
> The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
> Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
> Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
> For nothing now can ever come to any good.
("Funeral Blues" by W.H. Auden)
> scheme is. Thank you very much!
> Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
> Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
> Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
> Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.
>
> Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
> Scribbling in the sky the message He is Dead,
> Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves.
> Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.
>
> He was my North, my South, my East and West,
> My working week and my Sunday rest
> My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song:
> I though that love would last forever, I was wrong.
>
> The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
> Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
> Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
> For nothing now can ever come to any good.
> In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
only given for individual verses.
> However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
and rhymes with "con", "don", "gone", "upon", and "yon" -- it does
not sound like "wun" and rhyme with "done", "fun", "gun", "pun",
and "sun". Apparently the person who claimed that ghii was correct
was one of those.
I don't know if Auden pronounced "one" and "sun" as rhyming. But
even if he didn't, that just means he chose to violate his own aabb
rhyme scheme by using an approximate rhyme instead of an exact one.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto But that's what all the other
m...@vex.net individualists are doing!
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter Moylan
May 21, 2012, 1:29:14 AM5/21/12
to
in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher. Someone
with a poor mastery of English might think that "one" rhymes with "sone".
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Mark Brader
May 21, 2012, 2:15:42 AM5/21/12
to
Peter Moylan:
> Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher...
As far as understanding what a rhyme scheme means, at least.
--
Mark Brader "I can see the time when every city will have one."
Toronto -- An American mayor's reaction to the
m...@vex.net news of the invention of the telephone
> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
Huh?
> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
> Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher...
As far as understanding what a rhyme scheme means, at least.
--
Mark Brader "I can see the time when every city will have one."
Toronto -- An American mayor's reaction to the
m...@vex.net news of the invention of the telephone
Peter Moylan
May 21, 2012, 3:14:44 AM5/21/12
to
Mark Brader wrote:
> Peter Moylan:
>> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
>> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
>
> Huh?
OK, let's change that to "possibly".
> Peter Moylan:
>> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
>> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
>
> Huh?
>
>> Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher...
>
> As far as understanding what a rhyme scheme means, at least.
I too knew what an AABB rhyme scheme was, but I was initially puzzled
>> Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher...
>
> As far as understanding what a rhyme scheme means, at least.
trying to work out what CCDD was.
Steve Hayes
May 21, 2012, 5:41:27 AM5/21/12
to
On Sun, 20 May 2012 20:52:02 -0700 (PDT), lcy <lcyi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dear all,
> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
>scheme is. Thank you very much!
>
>
>Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
>Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
>Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
>Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.
aabb
>Dear all,
> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
>scheme is. Thank you very much!
>
>
>Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
>Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
>Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
>Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
ke...@cam.ac.uk
May 21, 2012, 7:21:18 AM5/21/12
to
In article <ce6456f5-497e-40f1...@r4g2000pbf.googlegroups.com>,
"One" and "sun" rhyme in most versions of UK English (not all), and I would be
very surprised if Auden didn't speak old-fashioned RP (he was educated at
Oxford). I'm positive he intended the words to rhyme.
Katy
lcy <lcyi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dear all,
> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
>scheme is. Thank you very much!
>
>Dear all,
> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
>scheme is. Thank you very much!
>
>The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
>Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
>Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
>For nothing now can ever come to any good.
>
>
>In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
>However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
>I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
>Thank you very much!
I believe you are correct, and the "correct answer" is wrong.
>Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
>Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
>For nothing now can ever come to any good.
>
>
>In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
>However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
>I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
>Thank you very much!
"One" and "sun" rhyme in most versions of UK English (not all), and I would be
very surprised if Auden didn't speak old-fashioned RP (he was educated at
Oxford). I'm positive he intended the words to rhyme.
Katy
Don Phillipson
May 21, 2012, 7:31:32 AM5/21/12
to
"lcy" <lcyi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ce6456f5-497e-40f1...@r4g2000pbf.googlegroups.com...
> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
> scheme is. Thank you very much!
>
> Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
> Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone, , , ,
lines rhymes (the line ends sound the same: sun and one rhyme.)
Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
second line) not normal in English verse drama.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:ce6456f5-497e-40f1...@r4g2000pbf.googlegroups.com...
> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
> scheme is. Thank you very much!
>
> Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
>
> In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
> However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
This rhyme scheme is called Rhyming Couplets: each pair of
> In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
> However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
lines rhymes (the line ends sound the same: sun and one rhyme.)
Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
second line) not normal in English verse drama.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Snidely
May 21, 2012, 9:46:30 AM5/21/12
to
Don Phillipson submitted this idea :
Are you considering this to be dramatic verse?
/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
Katy Jennison
May 21, 2012, 10:59:37 AM5/21/12
to
his poetry (though not this one) at
www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/120
and, as Katy surmises, he spoke the RP of the day (very clearly and
mellifluously).
--
Katy Jennison
Don Phillipson
May 21, 2012, 12:45:37 PM5/21/12
to
>> "lcy" <lcyi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:ce6456f5-497e-40f1...@r4g2000pbf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
>>> scheme is. Thank you very much!
>>>
>>> Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
>>> Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone, , , ,
>>>
>> news:ce6456f5-497e-40f1...@r4g2000pbf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
>>> scheme is. Thank you very much!
>>>
>>> Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone.
>>> Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone, , , ,
>>>
>> Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
>> poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
>> Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
>> dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
>> second line) not normal in English verse drama.
"Snidely" <snide...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
>> Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
>> dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
>> second line) not normal in English verse drama.
news:mn.a9967dc5409677a3.127094@snitoo...
> Are you considering this to be dramatic verse?
written for the ear than the eye, i.e. to be recited rather than read,
and oral recitation was fashionable when Auden was young.
The points are:
Rhyming Couplets are a standard pattern of English verse,
exemplified in "Stop all the clocks." (this answers the OP;)
and most abundantly found in French verse drama.
Tthe usual English pattern for dramatic poetry is Blank Verse
but Rhyming Couplets are sometimes used (e.g. in Henry VI,
Romeo and Juliet etc.) Both are Iambic Pentameter (5 feet per line)
whereas French dramatic verse prefers Hexameter (6 feet) in
Rhyming Couplets.
That "Stop all the clocks" is written in Iambic Pentameter in
rhyming couplets does not prove it was written for recitation
rather than reading, viz. dramatic verse, but makes it very likely
(unless your category prescribes that "dramatic verse" must
have the form of a theatrical script.)
Guy Barry
May 21, 2012, 1:19:17 PM5/21/12
to
On May 21, 4:52 am, lcy <lcyiu3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
Well here's the most famous rendition of the poem, by John Hannah in
> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
"Four Weddings and a Funeral":
They appear to rhyme in his dialect and I presume they did in Auden's
as well. (They do in mine.)
--
Guy Barry
Glenn Knickerbocker
May 21, 2012, 4:31:34 PM5/21/12
to
On 5/21/2012 1:18 AM, Mark Brader wrote:
> For many people, such as me, "one" is pronounced exactly like "won"
That part's true for most of the rest of us, too.
> For many people, such as me, "one" is pronounced exactly like "won"
> and rhymes with "con", "don", "gone", "upon", and "yon"
I've ever heard from friends who grew up in Toronto (regardless of
whether they say "To-rawn-toe" or "Tronna").
ŹR
Ian Jackson
May 21, 2012, 5:19:32 PM5/21/12
to
In message <jpd8fe$sai$1...@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk>, ke...@cam.ac.uk
writes
In most versions of UK English, rhyming "one" with "sun" would be taking
a pinch of poetic licence.
--
Ian
writes
a pinch of poetic licence.
--
Ian
Robin Bignall
May 21, 2012, 7:24:24 PM5/21/12
to
has the vowel of gun, and one of top. As different as chalk and cheese, as my
dad used to say.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
Robert Bannister
May 21, 2012, 9:35:53 PM5/21/12
to
On 21/05/12 1:29 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Uncle Ben wrote:
>> On May 20, 11:52 pm, lcy<lcyiu3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
>>> Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
>>> Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
>>> For nothing now can ever come to any good.
>
>>> In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
>>> However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
>>> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
>>> Thank you very much!
>>
>> In my dialect, gghh, but there are many dialects.
>
> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
>
> Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher. Someone
> with a poor mastery of English might think that "one" rhymes with "sone".
>
"One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
> Uncle Ben wrote:
>> On May 20, 11:52 pm, lcy<lcyiu3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
>>> Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
>>> Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
>>> For nothing now can ever come to any good.
>
>>> In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
>>> However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
>>> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
>>> Thank you very much!
>>
>> In my dialect, gghh, but there are many dialects.
>
> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
>
> Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher. Someone
> with a poor mastery of English might think that "one" rhymes with "sone".
>
south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
"sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
rhyme with "gone" and "con".
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 21, 2012, 9:39:24 PM5/21/12
to
--
Robert Bannister
Mark Brader
May 21, 2012, 11:33:45 PM5/21/12
to
Glenn Knickerbocker;
> I've ever heard from friends who grew up in Toronto (regardless of
> whether they say "To-rawn-toe" or "Tronna").
"Chronna".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "...ordinarily, a 65-pound alligator in an apartment
m...@vex.net | would be news." --James Barron, New York Times
> OK, so where is your accent from?
Mixed. I was born in England and grew up in Canada.
> I've ever heard from friends who grew up in Toronto (regardless of
> whether they say "To-rawn-toe" or "Tronna").
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "...ordinarily, a 65-pound alligator in an apartment
m...@vex.net | would be news." --James Barron, New York Times
James Hogg
May 22, 2012, 1:59:42 AM5/22/12
to
--
James
ke...@cam.ac.uk
May 22, 2012, 5:17:33 AM5/22/12
to
In article <e$7vL8OkF...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>,
evidence (see Katy Jennison's post) that Auden was one of what I think of as
the majority and you think of as the minority.
It would never have occurred to me, reading the peom, that the two words did
not, or were not intended to, rhyme just as much as the more obvious pairs.
Certainly whoever told the OP that their scheme was wrong was, well, wrong.
Katy
Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>"One" and "sun" rhyme in most versions of UK English (not all), and I would be
>>very surprised if Auden didn't speak old-fashioned RP (he was educated at
>>Oxford). I'm positive he intended the words to rhyme.
>>
>In most versions of UK English, rhyming "one" with "sun" would be taking
>a pinch of poetic licence.
That's interesting; we clearly differ about "most". But we have sufficient
>>"One" and "sun" rhyme in most versions of UK English (not all), and I would be
>>very surprised if Auden didn't speak old-fashioned RP (he was educated at
>>Oxford). I'm positive he intended the words to rhyme.
>>
>In most versions of UK English, rhyming "one" with "sun" would be taking
>a pinch of poetic licence.
evidence (see Katy Jennison's post) that Auden was one of what I think of as
the majority and you think of as the minority.
It would never have occurred to me, reading the peom, that the two words did
not, or were not intended to, rhyme just as much as the more obvious pairs.
Certainly whoever told the OP that their scheme was wrong was, well, wrong.
Katy
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
May 22, 2012, 6:44:07 AM5/22/12
to
On Tue, 22 May 2012 07:59:42 +0200, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:
Is that because of a dialect pronunciation of "hand"?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
wrote:
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
James Hogg
May 22, 2012, 7:03:37 AM5/22/12
to
--
James
Pablo
May 22, 2012, 7:07:21 AM5/22/12
to
Don Phillipson escribió:
> sun and one rhyme.
Only if one schwas 'one'. I pronounce it 'whon' with a hard 'o'. As does
everyone that I know.
--
Pablo
> sun and one rhyme.
Only if one schwas 'one'. I pronounce it 'whon' with a hard 'o'. As does
everyone that I know.
--
Pablo
Pablo
May 22, 2012, 7:12:42 AM5/22/12
to
Robert Bannister escribió:
> "One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
> south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
> "sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
> rhyme with "gone" and "con".
>
Just to confuse you, I'm from the Midlands and pronounce 'one' as 'won' and
'none' as 'nun'. But not always.
--
Pablo
> "One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
> south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
> "sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
> rhyme with "gone" and "con".
>
'none' as 'nun'. But not always.
--
Pablo
Pablo
May 22, 2012, 7:14:57 AM5/22/12
to
Peter Moylan escribió:
> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
I don't know about 'probably'.
--
Pablo
> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
--
Pablo
Athel Cornish-Bowden
May 22, 2012, 7:28:09 AM5/22/12
to
--
athel
GordonD
May 22, 2012, 7:42:33 AM5/22/12
to
"James Hogg" <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote in message
news:jpfrqb$so2$1...@dont-email.me...
Ah, light dawns. I couldn't see any way in which 'one' could rhyme with
'hand' but by dropping the 'd' it makes sense.
In Edinburgh a few hundred years ago the sanitary arrangements were a bit
more primitive than they are now - namely you did it in a bucket then threw
it out of the window. As a courtesy to those passing below it was the usual
practice to shout "Gardy-loo!" (a corruption of the French 'Guardez l'eau'.)
If you were unfortunate enough to be below at that moment, the common reply
was "Haud yer haun'!" (literally 'hold your hand' or 'please wait!'.) I can
see how in some areas (but ironically not here) 'one' might be pronounced so
that it rhymed with haun'.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."
news:jpfrqb$so2$1...@dont-email.me...
'hand' but by dropping the 'd' it makes sense.
In Edinburgh a few hundred years ago the sanitary arrangements were a bit
more primitive than they are now - namely you did it in a bucket then threw
it out of the window. As a courtesy to those passing below it was the usual
practice to shout "Gardy-loo!" (a corruption of the French 'Guardez l'eau'.)
If you were unfortunate enough to be below at that moment, the common reply
was "Haud yer haun'!" (literally 'hold your hand' or 'please wait!'.) I can
see how in some areas (but ironically not here) 'one' might be pronounced so
that it rhymed with haun'.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."
Athel Cornish-Bowden
May 22, 2012, 7:45:50 AM5/22/12
to
-- mainly a matter of getting the right number of syllables in each
line, a point made much of by the Gérard Depardieu character in Uranus
(1990). It was probably different in Racine's time, however: when I had
to learn to recite La Rêve d'Athalie at school we were instructed to
put a much heavier stress on the stressed syllables than any modern
French speaker would put in normal speech -- C'était pEndant l'horrEUr
d'une profOnde nuit ...
Looking again at the verse after many years
(http://singulier.info/rrr/2-jrac1.html) I see that the natural pauses
often occur between lines that rhyme, e.g. between lines 463 and 464,
or between lines 489 and 490 (i.e. just before the line that I
remembered and quote above). According to your theory the pauses should
occur after the even-numbered lines, i.e. against the sense.
--
athel
Ian Jackson
May 22, 2012, 5:41:43 AM5/22/12
to
In message <jpfljd$cnc$1...@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk>, ke...@cam.ac.uk
writes
I would certainly say that pronouncing "one" with the same vowel sound
as "sun" is sort of 'posh old-fashioned' - and could well be how WH
Auden said it. But I can't recall the last time I heard it. However,
IIRC, for emphasis and clarity, it's how the armed forces are supposed
to say it when reading numbers (something like "wun, two-uh, thur-ree,
foah-er" etc).
--
Ian
writes
as "sun" is sort of 'posh old-fashioned' - and could well be how WH
Auden said it. But I can't recall the last time I heard it. However,
IIRC, for emphasis and clarity, it's how the armed forces are supposed
to say it when reading numbers (something like "wun, two-uh, thur-ree,
foah-er" etc).
--
Ian
Peter Brooks
May 22, 2012, 8:20:41 AM5/22/12
to
On May 22, 1:42 pm, "GordonD" <g.da...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "James Hogg" <Jas.H...@gOUT
> "James Hogg" <Jas.H...@gOUT
>
> In Edinburgh a few hundred years ago the sanitary arrangements were a bit
> more primitive than they are now - namely you did it in a bucket then threw
> it out of the window. As a courtesy to those passing below it was the usual
> practice to shout "Gardy-loo!" (a corruption of the French 'Guardez l'eau'.)
> If you were unfortunate enough to be below at that moment, the common reply
> was "Haud yer haun'!" (literally 'hold your hand' or 'please wait!'.) I can
> see how in some areas (but ironically not here) 'one' might be pronounced so
> that it rhymed with haun'.
>
Did the gold 'fore' evolve from this, perhaps?
> In Edinburgh a few hundred years ago the sanitary arrangements were a bit
> more primitive than they are now - namely you did it in a bucket then threw
> it out of the window. As a courtesy to those passing below it was the usual
> practice to shout "Gardy-loo!" (a corruption of the French 'Guardez l'eau'.)
> If you were unfortunate enough to be below at that moment, the common reply
> was "Haud yer haun'!" (literally 'hold your hand' or 'please wait!'.) I can
> see how in some areas (but ironically not here) 'one' might be pronounced so
> that it rhymed with haun'.
>
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
May 22, 2012, 8:36:31 AM5/22/12
to
as "sun". I may be elderly, but I'm not "posh old-fashioned". I
sometimes hear "one" with the vowel sound of "on", but that is
noticeable because it is relatively unusual, IME.
The OED gives only one BrE pronunciation of "one"
IPA Sounds like
w w as in wear
^ u as in butter, upset
n n as in nine
I've used ^ to represent the inverted V.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
May 22, 2012, 8:54:06 AM5/22/12
to
OED:
fore, int.
Etymology: Probably a contraction of before adv., prep., conj., and
n.
Golf.
(See quot. 1878.)
1878 'Capt. Crawley' Football, Golf & Shinty , 82 Fore! a
warning cry to people in front of the stroke.
Nick Spalding
May 22, 2012, 9:30:58 AM5/22/12
to
Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote, in
<0h1nr7lfabii39cdv...@4ax.com>
on Tue, 22 May 2012 13:36:31 +0100:
Same here, I don't think it is either of those, simply southern English.
> I
>sometimes hear "one" with the vowel sound of "on", but that is
>noticeable because it is relatively unusual, IME.
>
>The OED gives only one BrE pronunciation of "one"
>
> IPA Sounds like
>
> w w as in wear
> ^ u as in butter, upset
> n n as in nine
>
>I've used ^ to represent the inverted V.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
<0h1nr7lfabii39cdv...@4ax.com>
on Tue, 22 May 2012 13:36:31 +0100:
> I
>sometimes hear "one" with the vowel sound of "on", but that is
>noticeable because it is relatively unusual, IME.
>
>The OED gives only one BrE pronunciation of "one"
>
> IPA Sounds like
>
> w w as in wear
> ^ u as in butter, upset
> n n as in nine
>
>I've used ^ to represent the inverted V.
--
BrE/IrE
Nick Spalding
May 22, 2012, 9:35:17 AM5/22/12
to
Nick Spalding wrote, in <p35nr7ll1gphlkvgq...@4ax.com>
on Tue, 22 May 2012 14:30:58 +0100:
Come to think of it I was at the same school as Auden.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
on Tue, 22 May 2012 14:30:58 +0100:
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
ke...@cam.ac.uk
May 22, 2012, 10:05:26 AM5/22/12
to
In article <6T3mAPHX...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>,
the same from many of my colleagues, some much younger than I am and not
particularly posh.
Katy
Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>I would certainly say that pronouncing "one" with the same vowel sound
>as "sun" is sort of 'posh old-fashioned' - and could well be how WH
>Auden said it. But I can't recall the last time I heard it. However,
Goodness - come and talk to me sometime - I'm not far away! But you will hear
>>
>I would certainly say that pronouncing "one" with the same vowel sound
>as "sun" is sort of 'posh old-fashioned' - and could well be how WH
>Auden said it. But I can't recall the last time I heard it. However,
the same from many of my colleagues, some much younger than I am and not
particularly posh.
Katy
Guy Barry
May 22, 2012, 10:22:25 AM5/22/12
to
"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:0h1nr7lfabii39cdv...@4ax.com...
> I'm perplexed. I've always pronounced "one" with the same vowel sound
> as "sun". I may be elderly, but I'm not "posh old-fashioned".
All the dictionaries I've checked give the same vowel sound as well, without
any suggestion of an alternative pronunciation. I've heard some people from
the north of England using the vowel sound of "gone", but it's not one I
generally hear in this part of the country.
The most famous rendition of the poem (which I'm surprised no one else has
mentioned) is by John Hannah in "Four Weddings and a Funeral". I thought
I'd posted a link in an earlier post, but it didn't appear, so here it is
again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_a-eXIoyYA
In Hannah's Scottish accent the vowel sounds are certainly different, which
I hadn't noticed before. Funnily enough, I can't find a reading in a
southern English accent (which is the one Auden presumably used). The
closest I can find is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0ep0lXhVQ&feature=related
Do they rhyme there? I can't decide.
--
Guy Barry
GordonD
May 22, 2012, 10:48:21 AM5/22/12
to
"Nick Spalding" <spal...@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:je5nr7h3flbh7aekj...@4ax.com...
Did you steal his lunch money?
news:je5nr7h3flbh7aekj...@4ax.com...
Nick Spalding
May 22, 2012, 10:56:13 AM5/22/12
to
GordonD wrote, in <a21n9o...@mid.individual.net>
on Tue, 22 May 2012 15:48:21 +0100:
That would have been difficult, he was twenty-some years ahead of me.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
on Tue, 22 May 2012 15:48:21 +0100:
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Glenn Knickerbocker
May 22, 2012, 11:24:11 AM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 10:56 AM, Nick Spalding wrote:
> GordonD wrote, in <a21n9o...@mid.individual.net>
ŹR
> GordonD wrote, in <a21n9o...@mid.individual.net>
>>"Nick Spalding" <spal...@iol.ie> wrote in message
>>> Come to think of it I was at the same school as Auden.
>>Did you steal his lunch money?
> That would have been difficult, he was twenty-some years ahead of me.
Got held back that many times, did he? I should have known.
>>Did you steal his lunch money?
> That would have been difficult, he was twenty-some years ahead of me.
ŹR
Ian Jackson
May 22, 2012, 11:43:05 AM5/22/12
to
In message <YkNur.647745$dO.6...@fx29.am4>, Guy Barry
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
In the Scots accented reading, the vowels are very similar - but I think
it's a case of "one" being pronounced a bit like "wun", and "sun" being
pronounced a bit like the first syllable in "sonic". They sort of meet
in the middle. However, in Auden's reading, to me, they are definitely
different. [I'm an English North-Easterner, BTW.]
--
Ian
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
it's a case of "one" being pronounced a bit like "wun", and "sun" being
pronounced a bit like the first syllable in "sonic". They sort of meet
in the middle. However, in Auden's reading, to me, they are definitely
different. [I'm an English North-Easterner, BTW.]
--
Ian
Don Phillipson
May 22, 2012, 12:45:22 PM5/22/12
to
> On 2012-05-21 13:31:32 +0200, "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>
> said:
>> Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
>> poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
>> Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
>> dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
>> second line) not normal in English verse drama.
"Athel Cornish-Bowden" <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> said:
>> Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
>> poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
>> Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
>> dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
>> second line) not normal in English verse drama.
news:a21chu...@mid.individual.net...
> . . . It was probably different in Racine's time, however: when I had to
> learn to recite La Rêve d'Athalie at school we were instructed to put a
> much heavier stress on the stressed syllables than any modern French
> speaker would put in normal speech -- C'était pEndant l'horrEUr d'une
> profOnde nuit ...
>
> Looking again at the verse after many years
> (http://singulier.info/rrr/2-jrac1.html) I see that the natural pauses
> often occur between lines that rhyme, e.g. between lines 463 and 464, or
> between lines 489 and 490 (i.e. just before the line that I remembered and
> quote above). According to your theory the pauses should occur after the
> even-numbered lines, i.e. against the sense.
Your case is made even strongly by lines 494 and 495.
> much heavier stress on the stressed syllables than any modern French
> speaker would put in normal speech -- C'était pEndant l'horrEUr d'une
> profOnde nuit ...
>
> Looking again at the verse after many years
> (http://singulier.info/rrr/2-jrac1.html) I see that the natural pauses
> often occur between lines that rhyme, e.g. between lines 463 and 464, or
> between lines 489 and 490 (i.e. just before the line that I remembered and
> quote above). According to your theory the pauses should occur after the
> even-numbered lines, i.e. against the sense.
But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
(as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
of uniform rhythm.
The general rule prevails, however, that French dramatic verse uses rhyming
couplets (4 stresses to a line), and most classical actors spoke them
with a mini-pause wherever (as is most frequent) punctuation also
distinguished a couplet from its successor.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Lanarcam
May 22, 2012, 3:25:10 PM5/22/12
to
Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>
> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
> have forgotten how the French might say this.
Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>
> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
> have forgotten how the French might say this.
http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
Swallows are early birds over here!
James Silverton
May 22, 2012, 3:39:16 PM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 3:25 PM, Lanarcam wrote:
> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a �crit :
I can't argue with the French discussion but, as in some other variants,
I think "Une seule hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps" would convey the
sense of the proverb better.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a �crit :
I think "Une seule hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps" would convey the
sense of the proverb better.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
Jerry Friedman
May 22, 2012, 3:44:31 PM5/22/12
to
On May 22, 10:45 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> > On 2012-05-21 13:31:32 +0200, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>
"mute" e before a vowel doesn't count.)
> The general rule prevails, however, that French dramatic verse uses rhyming
> couplets (4 stresses to a line),
That's what I thought too. Twelve syllables, with a caesura after the
sixth syllable, and two stress in each hemistich. Although I'm not
clear on what counts as a stress.
> and most classical actors spoke them
> with a mini-pause wherever (as is most frequent) punctuation also
> distinguished a couplet from its successor.
My French education somehow did not include classical actors reading
alexandrines. Ô rage ! ô désespoir !
--
Jerry Friedman
> > On 2012-05-21 13:31:32 +0200, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>
> > said:
> >> Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
> >> poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
> >> Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
> >> dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
> >> second line) not normal in English verse drama.
> "Athel Cornish-Bowden" <athel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
> >> poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
> >> Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
> >> dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
> >> second line) not normal in English verse drama.
>
> news:a21chu...@mid.individual.net...
>
> > . . . It was probably different in Racine's time, however: when I had to
> > learn to recite La Rêve d'Athalie at school we were instructed to put a
> > much heavier stress on the stressed syllables than any modern French
> > speaker would put in normal speech -- C'était pEndant l'horrEUr d'une
> > profOnde nuit ...
>
> > Looking again at the verse after many years
> > (http://singulier.info/rrr/2-jrac1.html) I see that the natural pauses
> > often occur between lines that rhyme, e.g. between lines 463 and 464, or
> > between lines 489 and 490 (i.e. just before the line that I remembered and
> > quote above). According to your theory the pauses should occur after the
> > even-numbered lines, i.e. against the sense.
>
> Your case is made even strongly by lines 494 and 495.
>
> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
> of uniform rhythm.
Is there one extra syllable in all of Racine? (Keeping in mind that
> news:a21chu...@mid.individual.net...
>
> > . . . It was probably different in Racine's time, however: when I had to
> > learn to recite La Rêve d'Athalie at school we were instructed to put a
> > much heavier stress on the stressed syllables than any modern French
> > speaker would put in normal speech -- C'était pEndant l'horrEUr d'une
> > profOnde nuit ...
>
> > Looking again at the verse after many years
> > (http://singulier.info/rrr/2-jrac1.html) I see that the natural pauses
> > often occur between lines that rhyme, e.g. between lines 463 and 464, or
> > between lines 489 and 490 (i.e. just before the line that I remembered and
> > quote above). According to your theory the pauses should occur after the
> > even-numbered lines, i.e. against the sense.
>
> Your case is made even strongly by lines 494 and 495.
>
> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
> of uniform rhythm.
"mute" e before a vowel doesn't count.)
> The general rule prevails, however, that French dramatic verse uses rhyming
> couplets (4 stresses to a line),
sixth syllable, and two stress in each hemistich. Although I'm not
clear on what counts as a stress.
> and most classical actors spoke them
> with a mini-pause wherever (as is most frequent) punctuation also
> distinguished a couplet from its successor.
alexandrines. Ô rage ! ô désespoir !
--
Jerry Friedman
Lanarcam
May 22, 2012, 3:56:48 PM5/22/12
to
Le 22/05/2012 21:39, James Silverton a écrit :
> On 5/22/2012 3:25 PM, Lanarcam wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 3:25 PM, Lanarcam wrote:
>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>
>> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>>
>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>
>>
>>
>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>
> I can't argue with the French discussion but, as in some other variants,
> I think "Une seule hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps" would convey the
> sense of the proverb better.
>
You may be right, there are instances of your version on the Web.
>>
>>>
>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>
>> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>>
>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>
>>
>>
>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>
> I can't argue with the French discussion but, as in some other variants,
> I think "Une seule hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps" would convey the
> sense of the proverb better.
>
It comes originally from Aristote:
Μία χελιδὼν ἔαρ οὐ ποιεῖ.
Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
Una hirundo non facit ver.
We could do with a Hellenist. What does "Μία" mean?
James Hogg
May 22, 2012, 4:19:13 PM5/22/12
to
--
James
Lanarcam
May 22, 2012, 4:22:37 PM5/22/12
to
"one", but "une seule" leaves less ambiguity between the
article and the number (a, one).
Mike L
May 22, 2012, 4:29:08 PM5/22/12
to
pleasure boat, etc]!"on the wrong side of the river. It must be a
contraction of something like "Look ahead!"
--
Mike.
Mike L
May 22, 2012, 4:42:52 PM5/22/12
to
On Tue, 22 May 2012 13:45:50 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On 2012-05-21 13:31:32 +0200, "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> said:
[...]
<athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On 2012-05-21 13:31:32 +0200, "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> said:
>>
>> Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
>> poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
>> Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
>> dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
>> second line) not normal in English verse drama.
"J'ai disloqué ce grand niais d'alexandrin!"
>> Rhyming Couplets are the preferred scheme for dramatic (theatrical)
>> poetry in French (cf. Corneille, Racine, etc.) English prefers Blank
>> Verse (iambi pentameters that do not rhyme. This gives French
>> dramatic verse a punctuated rhythm (a tiny pause after every
>> second line) not normal in English verse drama.
>
>If you didn't have rhymes in French poetry there wouldn't be much left
>-- mainly a matter of getting the right number of syllables in each
>line, a point made much of by the Gérard Depardieu character in Uranus
>(1990). It was probably different in Racine's time, however: when I had
>to learn to recite La Rêve d'Athalie at school we were instructed to
>put a much heavier stress on the stressed syllables than any modern
>French speaker would put in normal speech -- C'était pEndant l'horrEUr
>d'une profOnde nuit ...
>
>Looking again at the verse after many years
>(http://singulier.info/rrr/2-jrac1.html) I see that the natural pauses
>often occur between lines that rhyme, e.g. between lines 463 and 464,
>or between lines 489 and 490 (i.e. just before the line that I
>remembered and quote above). According to your theory the pauses should
>occur after the even-numbered lines, i.e. against the sense.
Gotta love Comédie-Française-speak! Have they modernized yet?
>If you didn't have rhymes in French poetry there wouldn't be much left
>-- mainly a matter of getting the right number of syllables in each
>line, a point made much of by the Gérard Depardieu character in Uranus
>(1990). It was probably different in Racine's time, however: when I had
>to learn to recite La Rêve d'Athalie at school we were instructed to
>put a much heavier stress on the stressed syllables than any modern
>French speaker would put in normal speech -- C'était pEndant l'horrEUr
>d'une profOnde nuit ...
>
>Looking again at the verse after many years
>(http://singulier.info/rrr/2-jrac1.html) I see that the natural pauses
>often occur between lines that rhyme, e.g. between lines 463 and 464,
>or between lines 489 and 490 (i.e. just before the line that I
>remembered and quote above). According to your theory the pauses should
>occur after the even-numbered lines, i.e. against the sense.
--
Mike.
Jerry Avins
May 22, 2012, 5:36:36 PM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
...
> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
> of uniform rhythm.
There was a young man of Japan
Whose limericks never would scan.
When told this was so
He replied, "Yes, I know.
But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
line as ever I possible can."
...
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
...
> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
> of uniform rhythm.
Whose limericks never would scan.
When told this was so
He replied, "Yes, I know.
But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
line as ever I possible can."
...
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Peter Moylan
May 22, 2012, 6:01:18 PM5/22/12
to
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
May 22, 2012, 6:08:13 PM5/22/12
to
(By coincidence, I was having a discussion over breakfast this morning
on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
Jerry Friedman
May 22, 2012, 6:08:17 PM5/22/12
to
On May 22, 3:36 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
> > and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
> > have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
> > with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
> > (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
> > in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
> > of uniform rhythm.
>
> There was a young man of Japan
> Whose limericks never would scan.
> When told this was so
> He replied, "Yes, I know.
> But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
> line as ever I possible can."
Likewise:
> On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
> > and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
> > have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
> > with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
> > (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
> > in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
> > of uniform rhythm.
>
> There was a young man of Japan
> Whose limericks never would scan.
> When told this was so
> He replied, "Yes, I know.
> But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
> line as ever I possible can."
A decrepit old gas man named Peter,
While hunting around for the meter,
Touched a leak with his light.
He arose out of sight,
And, as anyone can see by reading this, he also destroyed the meter.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
May 22, 2012, 6:14:10 PM5/22/12
to
Jerry Avins wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
>> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
>> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
>> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
>> of uniform rhythm.
>
> There was a young man of Japan
> Whose limericks never would scan.
> When told this was so
> He replied, "Yes, I know.
> But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
> line as ever I possible can."
There was a young man from Lahore
> On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
>> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
>> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
>> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
>> of uniform rhythm.
>
> There was a young man of Japan
> Whose limericks never would scan.
> When told this was so
> He replied, "Yes, I know.
> But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
> line as ever I possible can."
Whose limericks stopped at line four.
When asked why this was,
He responded, “Because.”
Andrew B
May 22, 2012, 6:49:23 PM5/22/12
to
On 21/05/2012 15:59, Katy Jennison wrote:
> I'm absolutely sure of it, too. There are audio clips of Auden reading
> his poetry (though not this one) at
>
> www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/120
>
> and, as Katy surmises, he spoke the RP of the day (very clearly and
> mellifluously).
At http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAsmDSpjWIM, at about 2:20, you can
hear him say "at one point", and he clearly pronounces "one" to rhyme
with "sun".
> I'm absolutely sure of it, too. There are audio clips of Auden reading
> his poetry (though not this one) at
>
> www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/120
>
> and, as Katy surmises, he spoke the RP of the day (very clearly and
> mellifluously).
At http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAsmDSpjWIM, at about 2:20, you can
hear him say "at one point", and he clearly pronounces "one" to rhyme
with "sun".
Peter Moylan
May 22, 2012, 7:23:51 PM5/22/12
to
I've seen that works in AmE but is totally obscure in BrE.
Bill McCray
May 22, 2012, 7:57:38 PM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 6:08 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Lanarcam wrote:
>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>
>> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>>
>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>
>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>
> But do they catch the worm?
>
> (By coincidence, I was having a discussion over breakfast this morning
> on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
>
The early cat catches the bird.
> Lanarcam wrote:
>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>
>> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>>
>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>
>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>
> But do they catch the worm?
>
> (By coincidence, I was having a discussion over breakfast this morning
> on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
>
Bill in Kentucky
Bill McCray
May 22, 2012, 8:01:05 PM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 5:36 PM, Jerry Avins wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
>> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
>> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
>> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
>> of uniform rhythm.
>
> There was a young man of Japan
> Whose limericks never would scan.
> When told this was so
> He replied, "Yes, I know.
> But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
> line as ever I possible can."
Another young poet in China
> On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
>> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
>> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
>> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
>> of uniform rhythm.
>
> There was a young man of Japan
> Whose limericks never would scan.
> When told this was so
> He replied, "Yes, I know.
> But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
> line as ever I possible can."
Has a sense of rhythm much fina.
His limericks tend
To come to an end
Suddenly.
Bill in Kentucky
Sproz
May 22, 2012, 7:59:55 PM5/22/12
to
On May 22, 10:41 am, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <jpfljd$cn...@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk>, k...@cam.ac.uk
> writes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article <e$7vL8OkFruPF...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Q8vtedJ-0
(I couldn't find a clip with "sun" in it, but "Scum" at 1:52, is
pretty close, as are lots of other words. They say "one" several times
at 4:47.)
Mark
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <jpfljd$cn...@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk>, k...@cam.ac.uk
> writes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article <e$7vL8OkFruPF...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>,
> >Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>>"One" and "sun" rhyme in most versions of UK English (not all), and I
> >>>would be
> >>>very surprised if Auden didn't speak old-fashioned RP (he was educated at
> >>>Oxford). I'm positive he intended the words to rhyme.
>
> >>In most versions of UK English, rhyming "one" with "sun" would be taking
> >>a pinch of poetic licence.
>
> >That's interesting; we clearly differ about "most". But we have sufficient
> >evidence (see Katy Jennison's post) that Auden was one of what I think of as
> >the majority and you think of as the minority.
>
> >It would never have occurred to me, reading the peom, that the two words did
> >not, or were not intended to, rhyme just as much as the more obvious pairs.
> >Certainly whoever told the OP that their scheme was wrong was, well, wrong.
>
> I would certainly say that pronouncing "one" with the same vowel sound
> as "sun" is sort of 'posh old-fashioned' - and could well be how WH
> Auden said it. But I can't recall the last time I heard it. However,
> IIRC, for emphasis and clarity, it's how the armed forces are supposed
> to say it when reading numbers (something like "wun, two-uh, thur-ree,
> foah-er" etc).
See whether you think these two geezers sound posh;
>
> >>>"One" and "sun" rhyme in most versions of UK English (not all), and I
> >>>would be
> >>>very surprised if Auden didn't speak old-fashioned RP (he was educated at
> >>>Oxford). I'm positive he intended the words to rhyme.
>
> >>In most versions of UK English, rhyming "one" with "sun" would be taking
> >>a pinch of poetic licence.
>
> >That's interesting; we clearly differ about "most". But we have sufficient
> >evidence (see Katy Jennison's post) that Auden was one of what I think of as
> >the majority and you think of as the minority.
>
> >It would never have occurred to me, reading the peom, that the two words did
> >not, or were not intended to, rhyme just as much as the more obvious pairs.
> >Certainly whoever told the OP that their scheme was wrong was, well, wrong.
>
> I would certainly say that pronouncing "one" with the same vowel sound
> as "sun" is sort of 'posh old-fashioned' - and could well be how WH
> Auden said it. But I can't recall the last time I heard it. However,
> IIRC, for emphasis and clarity, it's how the armed forces are supposed
> to say it when reading numbers (something like "wun, two-uh, thur-ree,
> foah-er" etc).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Q8vtedJ-0
(I couldn't find a clip with "sun" in it, but "Scum" at 1:52, is
pretty close, as are lots of other words. They say "one" several times
at 4:47.)
Mark
semir...@my-deja.com
May 22, 2012, 8:10:22 PM5/22/12
to
On May 21, 12:21 pm, k...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
> lcy <lcyiu3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Dear all,
>>As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
>>scheme is. Thank you very much!
>>The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
>>Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
>>Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
>>For nothing now can ever come to any good.
>>In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
>>However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
>>I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
>>Thank you very much!
>I believe you are correct, and the "correct answer" is wrong.
I, as somebody who pronounces "one" and "sun" with the same vowel
sound, was very surprised when I first heard "nothing" said with the
first vowel sounding the same as in "moth". The speaker came from
Newcastle upon Tyne.
> lcy <lcyiu3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Dear all,
>>As for the following poem, I would like to know what the rhyme
>>scheme is. Thank you very much!
>>The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
>>Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
>>Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
>>For nothing now can ever come to any good.
>>In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
>>However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
>>I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
>>Thank you very much!
>I believe you are correct, and the "correct answer" is wrong.
>"One" and "sun" rhyme in most versions of UK English (not all), and I would be
>very surprised if Auden didn't speak old-fashioned RP (he was educated at
>Oxford). I'm positive he intended the words to rhyme. Katy
>very surprised if Auden didn't speak old-fashioned RP (he was educated at
I, as somebody who pronounces "one" and "sun" with the same vowel
sound, was very surprised when I first heard "nothing" said with the
first vowel sounding the same as in "moth". The speaker came from
Newcastle upon Tyne.
Peter Moylan
May 22, 2012, 8:18:39 PM5/22/12
to
semir...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I, as somebody who pronounces "one" and "sun" with the same vowel
> sound, was very surprised when I first heard "nothing" said with the
> first vowel sounding the same as in "moth". The speaker came from
> Newcastle upon Tyne.
I once heard a story about a boy who wanted to borrow a library book
> I, as somebody who pronounces "one" and "sun" with the same vowel
> sound, was very surprised when I first heard "nothing" said with the
> first vowel sounding the same as in "moth". The speaker came from
> Newcastle upon Tyne.
called "Advice for young mothers". The librarian suggested that it was
inappropriate, to which he replied "But I collect moths!"
Robert Bannister
May 22, 2012, 9:20:47 PM5/22/12
to
On 22/05/12 1:59 PM, James Hogg wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 21/05/12 1:29 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Uncle Ben wrote:
>>>
>>> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
>>> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
>>>
>>> Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher. Someone
>>> with a poor mastery of English might think that "one" rhymes with "sone".
>>>
>>
>> "One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
>> south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
>> "sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
>> rhyme with "gone" and "con".
>
> And in my dialect "one" rhymes with "hand".
>
I think you whooshed me.
--
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 21/05/12 1:29 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Uncle Ben wrote:
>>>> On May 20, 11:52 pm, lcy<lcyiu3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
>>>>> Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
>>>>> Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
>>>>> For nothing now can ever come to any good.
>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
>>>>> However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
>>>>> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
>>>>> Thank you very much!
>>>>
>>>> In my dialect, gghh, but there are many dialects.
>>>
>>>>> The stars are not wanted now: put out every one,
>>>>> Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun.
>>>>> Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
>>>>> For nothing now can ever come to any good.
>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, the rhyme scheme is aabb ccdd eeff gghh.
>>>>> However, the correct answer is aabb ccdd eeff ghii
>>>>> I wonder why the word"one" doesn't rhyme with the word "sun".
>>>>> Thank you very much!
>>>>
>>>
>>> A dialect in which "one" does not rhyme with "sun" is probably a dialect
>>> in which "wood" and "good" do not rhyme.
>>>
>>> Let us not rule out the possibility of an incompetent teacher. Someone
>>> with a poor mastery of English might think that "one" rhymes with "sone".
>>>
>>
>> "One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
>> south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
>> "sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
>> rhyme with "gone" and "con".
>
> And in my dialect "one" rhymes with "hand".
>
I think you whooshed me.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 22, 2012, 9:26:49 PM5/22/12
to
On 22/05/12 7:12 PM, Pablo wrote:
> Robert Bannister escribió:
> 'none' as 'nun'. But not always.
>
The "not always" is the best part. I am not from the Midlands, but with
a Leicestershire mother and a Lancashire father, I discovered fairly
late in life that, despite having lived most of my life in the London
area, I had a few non-southern pronunciations. I ended up with "won" (as
in "wanton"), but "none" (as in "nun") too. I have a suspiciously
non-southern "a" vowel too that only seems to come out in the word
"back" (but not always).
--
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister escribió:
>
>> "One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
>> south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
>> "sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
>> rhyme with "gone" and "con".
>>
>
> Just to confuse you, I'm from the Midlands and pronounce 'one' as 'won' and
>> "One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
>> south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
>> "sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
>> rhyme with "gone" and "con".
>>
>
> 'none' as 'nun'. But not always.
>
The "not always" is the best part. I am not from the Midlands, but with
a Leicestershire mother and a Lancashire father, I discovered fairly
late in life that, despite having lived most of my life in the London
area, I had a few non-southern pronunciations. I ended up with "won" (as
in "wanton"), but "none" (as in "nun") too. I have a suspiciously
non-southern "a" vowel too that only seems to come out in the word
"back" (but not always).
--
Robert Bannister
R H Draney
May 23, 2012, 1:52:14 AM5/23/12
to
Robert Bannister filted:
If "won" is pronounced as in "won-ton soup", what do you make of "wan"?...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Lanarcam
May 23, 2012, 3:41:21 AM5/23/12
to
Le 23/05/2012 00:08, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> Lanarcam wrote:
>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>
>> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>>
>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>
>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>
> But do they catch the worm?
Not many worms in spring, that's why there only
> Lanarcam wrote:
>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>
>> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>>
>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>
>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>
> But do they catch the worm?
a single swallow in these parts, un uninformed one.
>
> (By coincidence, I was having a discussion over breakfast this morning
> on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
>
It is the best time of the day to catch trouts, they
> (By coincidence, I was having a discussion over breakfast this morning
> on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
>
are a gourmet kind those felines.
Ian Jackson
May 23, 2012, 3:58:59 AM5/23/12
to
In message <4fbc94a5$0$6455$426a...@news.free.fr>, Lanarcam
<lana...@yahoo.fr> writes
find itself being eaten by a swallow.
>>
>
--
Ian
<lana...@yahoo.fr> writes
>
>
>Not many worms in spring, that's why there only
>a single swallow in these parts, un uninformed one.
>>
Regardless of the time of year, a worm would be very surprised indeed to
>
>Not many worms in spring, that's why there only
>a single swallow in these parts, un uninformed one.
>>
find itself being eaten by a swallow.
>>
>
--
Ian
Lanarcam
May 23, 2012, 5:13:52 AM5/23/12
to
GordonD
May 23, 2012, 5:23:40 AM5/23/12
to
"Peter Moylan" <inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:VZudnSGW2P1CsSHS...@westnet.com.au...
sex manual but found it was Volume 10 of the Encyclopedia Britannica.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."
news:VZudnSGW2P1CsSHS...@westnet.com.au...
> semir...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> I, as somebody who pronounces "one" and "sun" with the same vowel
>> sound, was very surprised when I first heard "nothing" said with the
>> first vowel sounding the same as in "moth". The speaker came from
>> Newcastle upon Tyne.
>
> I once heard a story about a boy who wanted to borrow a library book
> called "Advice for young mothers". The librarian suggested that it was
> inappropriate, to which he replied "But I collect moths!"
Not the same boy who borrowed a book called "How to Hug" thinking it was a
>
>> I, as somebody who pronounces "one" and "sun" with the same vowel
>> sound, was very surprised when I first heard "nothing" said with the
>> first vowel sounding the same as in "moth". The speaker came from
>> Newcastle upon Tyne.
>
> I once heard a story about a boy who wanted to borrow a library book
> called "Advice for young mothers". The librarian suggested that it was
> inappropriate, to which he replied "But I collect moths!"
sex manual but found it was Volume 10 of the Encyclopedia Britannica.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."
James Hogg
May 23, 2012, 5:48:07 AM5/23/12
to
[a]: man, hand, wan, one, thrawn, crane.
--
James
Daniel James
May 23, 2012, 6:35:45 AM5/23/12
to
In article <4fbbe81a$0$6473$426a...@news.free.fr>, Lanarcam wrote:
> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
One bottle of cheap German white wine won't put a spring in your step?
> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
Cheers,
Daniel.
Daniel James
May 23, 2012, 6:35:45 AM5/23/12
to
In article <4fbc94a5$0$6455$426a...@news.free.fr>, Lanarcam wrote:
> It is the best time of the day to catch trouts ...
"Trouts". "Trout" is one of those odd English words that does not
(usually) form a plural ending in 's' ... the same word is commonly
(but not invariably) used for the singular as for the plural (as with
"sheep").
.. but the headers of your posting suggest that you may be writing
from France, and so are perhaps not a native English speaker.
Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
very long time.
Interesting ...
Cheers,
Daniel.
> It is the best time of the day to catch trouts ...
"Trouts". "Trout" is one of those odd English words that does not
(usually) form a plural ending in 's' ... the same word is commonly
(but not invariably) used for the singular as for the plural (as with
"sheep").
.. but the headers of your posting suggest that you may be writing
from France, and so are perhaps not a native English speaker.
Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
very long time.
Interesting ...
Cheers,
Daniel.
ke...@cam.ac.uk
May 23, 2012, 6:42:03 AM5/23/12
to
In article <VA.0000063...@me.invalid>,
is "old trouts".
Katy, who should know.
Daniel James <dan...@me.invalid> wrote:
>
>Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>very long time.
True for the fish, but not for the metaphorical use; the plural of "old trout"
>
>Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>very long time.
is "old trouts".
Katy, who should know.
Lanarcam
May 23, 2012, 7:27:32 AM5/23/12
to
Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
> In article<4fbc94a5$0$6455$426a...@news.free.fr>, Lanarcam wrote:
>> It is the best time of the day to catch trouts ...
>
> "Trouts". "Trout" is one of those odd English words that does not
> (usually) form a plural ending in 's' ... the same word is commonly
> (but not invariably) used for the singular as for the plural (as with
> "sheep").
>
> .. but the headers of your posting suggest that you may be writing
> from France, and so are perhaps not a native English speaker.
I am French, indeed.
> In article<4fbc94a5$0$6455$426a...@news.free.fr>, Lanarcam wrote:
>> It is the best time of the day to catch trouts ...
>
> "Trouts". "Trout" is one of those odd English words that does not
> (usually) form a plural ending in 's' ... the same word is commonly
> (but not invariably) used for the singular as for the plural (as with
> "sheep").
>
> .. but the headers of your posting suggest that you may be writing
> from France, and so are perhaps not a native English speaker.
>
> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
> very long time.
>
And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
> very long time.
>
Cheryl
May 23, 2012, 7:34:06 AM5/23/12
to
--
Cheryl
Peter Moylan
May 23, 2012, 8:19:45 AM5/23/12
to
Cheryl
May 23, 2012, 8:24:56 AM5/23/12
to
On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Cheryl wrote:
>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>
>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>> very long time.
>>>>
>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, of course.
>>
> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
>
Sardines, I'suppose. Lobsters don't really count, not being fish - and
> Cheryl wrote:
>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>
>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>> very long time.
>>>>
>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, of course.
>>
> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
>
being an exception anyway; you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you
order crab.
--
Cheryl
Sproz
May 23, 2012, 8:27:41 AM5/23/12
to
On May 23, 1:19 pm, Peter Moylan <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
wrote:
Mark
wrote:
> Cheryl wrote:
> > On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
> >> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
> >>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
> >>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
> >>> very long time.
>
> >> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>
> > Yes, of course.
>
> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
Sardines and similar.
> > On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
> >> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
> >>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
> >>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
> >>> very long time.
>
> >> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>
> > Yes, of course.
>
> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
Mark
Peter Brooks
May 23, 2012, 9:01:08 AM5/23/12
to
blush - as one did, when it saw Queen Mary's bottom.
Pablo
May 23, 2012, 9:29:22 AM5/23/12
to
Cheryl escribió:
You eat sardines plural, crab not usually more than one. Although, one
normally has more than one squid, but it is ordered in singular.
--
Pablo
normally has more than one squid, but it is ordered in singular.
--
Pablo
GordonD
May 23, 2012, 9:36:29 AM5/23/12
to
"Peter Moylan" <inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:L76dnZQDHrF_SCHS...@westnet.com.au...
> Cheryl wrote:
>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a �crit :
>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>
>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>> very long time.
>>>>
>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, of course.
>>
> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
Kippers!
>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>> very long time.
>>>>
>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, of course.
>>
> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
May 23, 2012, 9:42:35 AM5/23/12
to
On Wed, 23 May 2012 09:54:56 -0230, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Cheryl wrote:
>>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a �crit :
>On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Cheryl wrote:
>>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>
>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>>> very long time.
>>>>>
>>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, of course.
>>>
>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
>>
>
>Sardines, I'suppose. Lobsters don't really count, not being fish - and
>being an exception anyway; you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you
>order crab.
This is a bit confusing because it is not always clear when ordering in
>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>>> very long time.
>>>>>
>>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, of course.
>>>
>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
>>
>
>Sardines, I'suppose. Lobsters don't really count, not being fish - and
>being an exception anyway; you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you
>order crab.
a restaurant whether you are asking for a fish or a type of fishmeat. If
you order tuna you would not expect to be served a whole tuna.
If you order a dish with chicken, duck or lamb in it, you would normally
be very surprised to find a whole duck or chicken on your plate and even
more suprised to find a whole lamb.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Cheryl
May 23, 2012, 9:53:34 AM5/23/12
to
On 2012-05-23 11:12 AM, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> On Wed, 23 May 2012 09:54:56 -0230, Cheryl<cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Cheryl wrote:
>>>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
> On Wed, 23 May 2012 09:54:56 -0230, Cheryl<cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Cheryl wrote:
>>>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>>>
>>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>>>> very long time.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course.
>>>>
>>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
>>>
>>
>> Sardines, I'suppose. Lobsters don't really count, not being fish - and
>> being an exception anyway; you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you
>> order crab.
>
> This is a bit confusing because it is not always clear when ordering in
> a restaurant whether you are asking for a fish or a type of fishmeat. If
> you order tuna you would not expect to be served a whole tuna.
>
> If you order a dish with chicken, duck or lamb in it, you would normally
> be very surprised to find a whole duck or chicken on your plate and even
> more suprised to find a whole lamb.
>
Some years ago I decided to improve my diet by eating more seafood and
>>>
>>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>>>> very long time.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course.
>>>>
>>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
>>>
>>
>> Sardines, I'suppose. Lobsters don't really count, not being fish - and
>> being an exception anyway; you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you
>> order crab.
>
> This is a bit confusing because it is not always clear when ordering in
> a restaurant whether you are asking for a fish or a type of fishmeat. If
> you order tuna you would not expect to be served a whole tuna.
>
> If you order a dish with chicken, duck or lamb in it, you would normally
> be very surprised to find a whole duck or chicken on your plate and even
> more suprised to find a whole lamb.
>
went to buy some directly from a local fishplant. I love halibut and
hadn't had any in some years, so, having never actually seen more of a
halibut than a few slices in a store, I told the man at the counter that
I wanted to buy a halibut. He gave me a funny look and evidently took my
measure, because he responded 'You want a small halibut, I suppose?' and
I took the hint.
--
Cheryl
James Hogg
May 23, 2012, 10:30:29 AM5/23/12
to
GordonD wrote:
> "Peter Moylan" <inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote in message
> news:L76dnZQDHrF_SCHS...@westnet.com.au...
>> Cheryl wrote:
>>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
> "Peter Moylan" <inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote in message
> news:L76dnZQDHrF_SCHS...@westnet.com.au...
>> Cheryl wrote:
>>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>>
>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>>> very long time.
>>>>>
>>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, of course.
>>>
>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've
>> forgotten.
>
>
> Kippers!
Sprats would probably be in the plural too, if they were ever actually
>>
>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>>> very long time.
>>>>>
>>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, of course.
>>>
>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've
>> forgotten.
>
>
> Kippers!
served anywhere.
--
James
Don Phillipson
May 23, 2012, 10:57:45 AM5/23/12
to
"Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:493f1630-26ed-4f14...@d6g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> Is there one extra syllable in all of Racine? (Keeping in mind that
> "mute" e before a vowel doesn't count.)
The most famous example is:
C'est Venus tout entiere a sa proie attachee . . .
"a sa proie" and "attachee" both have three syllables (not two) one
stressed.
This may be more common than is widely supposed.
> > The general rule prevails, however, that French dramatic verse uses
> > rhyming
> > couplets (4 stresses to a line),
> That's what I thought too. Twelve syllables, with a caesura after the
> sixth syllable, and two stress in each hemistich. Although I'm not
> clear on what counts as a stress.
The background point is that spoken French does not stress particular
words to convey meaning, or at least not to the extent English does:
so that French verse is thus much more plastic. Spoken English may
choose to stress any of the three words "I love you" to add meaning
or emphasis. French is not organized this way, i.e. does not expect
oral stress to alter meaning.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:493f1630-26ed-4f14...@d6g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> Is there one extra syllable in all of Racine? (Keeping in mind that
> "mute" e before a vowel doesn't count.)
The most famous example is:
C'est Venus tout entiere a sa proie attachee . . .
"a sa proie" and "attachee" both have three syllables (not two) one
stressed.
This may be more common than is widely supposed.
> > The general rule prevails, however, that French dramatic verse uses
> > rhyming
> > couplets (4 stresses to a line),
> That's what I thought too. Twelve syllables, with a caesura after the
> sixth syllable, and two stress in each hemistich. Although I'm not
> clear on what counts as a stress.
The background point is that spoken French does not stress particular
words to convey meaning, or at least not to the extent English does:
so that French verse is thus much more plastic. Spoken English may
choose to stress any of the three words "I love you" to add meaning
or emphasis. French is not organized this way, i.e. does not expect
oral stress to alter meaning.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Jared
May 23, 2012, 12:17:37 PM5/23/12
to
--
Jared
Glenn Knickerbocker
May 23, 2012, 12:39:48 PM5/23/12
to
On 5/22/2012 7:57 PM, Bill McCray wrote:
> The early cat catches the bird.
And leaves half of it on the back porch.
ŹR
> The early cat catches the bird.
And leaves half of it on the back porch.
ŹR
Glenn Knickerbocker
May 23, 2012, 12:49:04 PM5/23/12
to
On 5/23/2012 8:24 AM, Cheryl wrote:
> On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>>> very long time.
> On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>>> very long time.
>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've
>> forgotten.
> Sardines, I'suppose.
Minnows, sunnies, groupers, jacks, sharks, rays, lampreys, eels,
>> forgotten.
> Sardines, I'suppose.
seahorses, coelacanths . . .
ŹR
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
May 23, 2012, 12:59:53 PM5/23/12
to
Cheryl wrote:
>
> ... you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you order crab.
>
But you can get crabs from a waitress.
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
>
> ... you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you order crab.
>
But you can get crabs from a waitress.
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Robin Bignall
May 23, 2012, 3:55:27 PM5/23/12
to
about saffron. Knowing little about it other than its name I went to the local
pharmacist, who asked how much I wanted. Oh, an ounce, I suppose. He told me
that an ounce would cost getting on for 800 UKP, so I ended up with a couple of
quids' worth, surprised at how little I got, then even more surprised at how far
it went when I used it.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
Mike L
May 23, 2012, 4:36:05 PM5/23/12
to
On Tue, 22 May 2012 19:57:38 -0400, Bill McCray
<billm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 5/22/2012 6:08 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>>
breakfast, though not for the same reason I am. Apparently, all that
dawn chorus singing is to burn off the remains of the energy reserves
they'd built up for the night. Is this actually true, or even
credible?
Meanwhile, I understand that cats aren't really nocturnal, but
crepuscular: roaming in the gloaming is their favourite thing.
--
Mike.
<billm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 5/22/2012 6:08 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>>
>>> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>>
>>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>>
>> But do they catch the worm?
>>
>>>
>>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>>
>> But do they catch the worm?
>>
>> (By coincidence, I was having a discussion over breakfast this morning
>> on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
>>
>> on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
>>
>The early cat catches the bird.
>
I've read or heard that birds are often at their least agile before
>
breakfast, though not for the same reason I am. Apparently, all that
dawn chorus singing is to burn off the remains of the energy reserves
they'd built up for the night. Is this actually true, or even
credible?
Meanwhile, I understand that cats aren't really nocturnal, but
crepuscular: roaming in the gloaming is their favourite thing.
--
Mike.
Mike L
May 23, 2012, 4:37:12 PM5/23/12
to
--
Mike.
Mike L
May 23, 2012, 4:46:04 PM5/23/12
to
On Wed, 23 May 2012 09:23:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On May 22, 3:36 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
>>>> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
>>>> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
>>>> of uniform rhythm.
>>> There was a young man of Japan
>>> Whose limericks never would scan.
>>> When told this was so
>>> He replied, "Yes, I know.
>>> But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
>>> line as ever I possible can."
>>
>> Likewise:
>>
>> A decrepit old gas man named Peter,
>> While hunting around for the meter,
>> Touched a leak with his light.
>> He arose out of sight,
>> And, as anyone can see by reading this, he also destroyed the meter.
>
>That had me puzzled for a minute or so. It's possibly the first limerick
>I've seen that works in AmE but is totally obscure in BrE.
It's a pretty modest payback for the one about the
halisbury-scalisbury curate who wandered round Hampshire...
--
Mike.
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On May 22, 3:36 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2012 12:45 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>>> have forgotten how the French might say this. What he has in common
>>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes oppressive
>>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>>> with Shakespeare is the emphasis on stress rather than vowel length
>>>> (as in Latin verse) so that Racine and Shakespeare were equally flexible
>>>> in welcoming extra unstressed syllables to avoid the plonking monotony
>>>> of uniform rhythm.
>>> There was a young man of Japan
>>> Whose limericks never would scan.
>>> When told this was so
>>> He replied, "Yes, I know.
>>> But I always try to cram as many syllables into the last
>>> line as ever I possible can."
>>
>> Likewise:
>>
>> A decrepit old gas man named Peter,
>> While hunting around for the meter,
>> Touched a leak with his light.
>> He arose out of sight,
>> And, as anyone can see by reading this, he also destroyed the meter.
>
>That had me puzzled for a minute or so. It's possibly the first limerick
>I've seen that works in AmE but is totally obscure in BrE.
It's a pretty modest payback for the one about the
halisbury-scalisbury curate who wandered round Hampshire...
--
Mike.
Evan Kirshenbaum
May 23, 2012, 6:31:12 PM5/23/12
to
like anchovies on pizza.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Code should be designed to make it
SF Bay Area (1982-) |easy to get it right, not to work
Chicago (1964-1982) |if you get it right.
evan.kir...@gmail.com
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Robert Bannister
May 23, 2012, 7:35:43 PM5/23/12
to
could all be "ah" or at least like a German "a".
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 23, 2012, 7:37:28 PM5/23/12
to
On 23/05/12 1:52 PM, R H Draney wrote:
> Robert Bannister filted:
>>
>> On 22/05/12 7:12 PM, Pablo wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister escribió:
>>> 'none' as 'nun'. But not always.
>>>
>>
>> The "not always" is the best part. I am not from the Midlands, but with
>> a Leicestershire mother and a Lancashire father, I discovered fairly
>> late in life that, despite having lived most of my life in the London
>> area, I had a few non-southern pronunciations. I ended up with "won" (as
>> in "wanton"), but "none" (as in "nun") too. I have a suspiciously
>> non-southern "a" vowel too that only seems to come out in the word
>> "back" (but not always).
>
> If "won" is pronounced as in "won-ton soup", what do you make of "wan"?...r
>
>
Same sound for me. It's a standard, if ancient joke to be wanton in
Chinese restaurants.
--
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister filted:
>>
>> On 22/05/12 7:12 PM, Pablo wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister escribió:
>>>
>>>> "One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
>>>> south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
>>>> "sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
>>>> rhyme with "gone" and "con".
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just to confuse you, I'm from the Midlands and pronounce 'one' as 'won' and
>>>> "One" and "none" have two pronunciations. The commonest, used in the
>>>> south of England and most of the rest of the world has them rhyming with
>>>> "sun" and "fun", but in the Midlands and the North of England, they
>>>> rhyme with "gone" and "con".
>>>>
>>>
>>> 'none' as 'nun'. But not always.
>>>
>>
>> The "not always" is the best part. I am not from the Midlands, but with
>> a Leicestershire mother and a Lancashire father, I discovered fairly
>> late in life that, despite having lived most of my life in the London
>> area, I had a few non-southern pronunciations. I ended up with "won" (as
>> in "wanton"), but "none" (as in "nun") too. I have a suspiciously
>> non-southern "a" vowel too that only seems to come out in the word
>> "back" (but not always).
>
> If "won" is pronounced as in "won-ton soup", what do you make of "wan"?...r
>
>
Same sound for me. It's a standard, if ancient joke to be wanton in
Chinese restaurants.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 23, 2012, 7:40:38 PM5/23/12
to
On 23/05/12 3:41 PM, Lanarcam wrote:
> a single swallow in these parts, un uninformed one.
> are a gourmet kind those felines.
Pardon the correction, but I think "trout" either has no plural or it is
the same as the singular.
--
Robert Bannister
> Le 23/05/2012 00:08, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>> Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>>
>>>>
>> Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 22/05/2012 18:45, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Racine knew also (1) that strictly uniform rhythm becomes
>>>> oppressive
>>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>>
>>>> oppressive
>>>> and tedious and (2) one swallow does not make a summer, although I
>>>> have forgotten how the French might say this.
>>>
>>> Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
>>>
>>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>>
>>>
>>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>>
>> But do they catch the worm?
>
> Not many worms in spring, that's why there only
>>>
>>> http://les-proverbes.fr/site/proverbes/une-hirondelle-ne-fait-pas-le-printemps/
>>>
>>>
>>> Swallows are early birds over here!
>>
>> But do they catch the worm?
>
> a single swallow in these parts, un uninformed one.
>>
>> (By coincidence, I was having a discussion over breakfast this morning
>> on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
>>
> It is the best time of the day to catch trouts, they
>> (By coincidence, I was having a discussion over breakfast this morning
>> on why cats want to go outside before sunrise.)
>>
> are a gourmet kind those felines.
Pardon the correction, but I think "trout" either has no plural or it is
the same as the singular.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 23, 2012, 7:43:53 PM5/23/12
to
On 23/05/12 8:19 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Cheryl wrote:
>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>
>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>> very long time.
>>>>
>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, of course.
>>
> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
>
Might one not ask for a couple of herrings? Outside of the restaurant,
> Cheryl wrote:
>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>
>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing the
>>>> plural of "trout" being written as anything other than "trout" for a
>>>> very long time.
>>>>
>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, of course.
>>
> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've forgotten.
>
lots of fish and sharks have proper plurals, but "trouts" seems odd.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 23, 2012, 7:48:19 PM5/23/12
to
sometimes buy a whole (small) one. Of course, I don't know if it's even
the same fish. Fish names are a great problem with different species
having the same name or the different names being used in different
places for the same fish.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 23, 2012, 7:50:25 PM5/23/12
to
On 24/05/12 6:31 AM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Cheryl<cper...@mun.ca> writes:
>
>> On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Cheryl wrote:
>>>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>>>
>>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing
>>>>>> the plural of "trout" being written as anything other than
>>>>>> "trout" for a very long time.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course.
>>>>
>>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've
>>> forgotten.
>>
>> Sardines, I'suppose. Lobsters don't really count, not being fish - and
>> being an exception anyway; you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you
>> order crab.
>
> I order sand dabs most of the time at one local restaurant. And I
> like anchovies on pizza.
>
That last one is a slight oddity: in that particular phrase, I would
> Cheryl<cper...@mun.ca> writes:
>
>> On 2012-05-23 9:49 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Cheryl wrote:
>>>> On 2012-05-23 8:57 AM, Lanarcam wrote:
>>>>> Le 23/05/2012 12:35, Daniel James a écrit :
>>>
>>>>>> Anyhow, although it is not incorrect, I can't remember seeing
>>>>>> the plural of "trout" being written as anything other than
>>>>>> "trout" for a very long time.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And what do you order at a restaurant, trout?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course.
>>>>
>>> The same is true for all fish, unless there's an exception I've
>>> forgotten.
>>
>> Sardines, I'suppose. Lobsters don't really count, not being fish - and
>> being an exception anyway; you don't order crabs in a restaurant, you
>> order crab.
>
> I order sand dabs most of the time at one local restaurant. And I
> like anchovies on pizza.
>
have used the singular even though I do use "anchovies" in other settings.
--
Robert Bannister
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