FW: Looming Groupocalypse : The Google Groupsspaggheddon Cometh!

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 16, 2024, 5:19:11 AMJan 16

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From: SugarBug <38...@sugar.bug>
Newsgroups: eternal-september.talk, alt.free.newsservers, alt.september
Subject: Looming Groupocalypse : The Google Groupsspaggheddon Cometh!
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:38:43 -0600

A Brain Candy Rant for Tin Hatters and Texters. (SyberShock!)
-------------------------------------------------------------

Looming Groupocalypse : The Google Groupsspaggheddon Cometh!
Tuesday, September 11088, 1993

-------------------------------------------------------------
List of Free Usenet Servers: https://sybershock.com/#usenet
-------------------------------------------------------------

Usenet is dead.
Usenet has always been dead.
Usenet is dying.
Usenet is always dying.
Live with it.

Long live Usenet!

Google Groups has provided Usenet access for many years
since Google acquired DejaNews 22 years ago, circa 2002.

For some of these years Google has allowed a non-stop spam
flooding, denial of service attack against the Usenet
network. Google and other large Usenet providers have
suborned a non-stop flood of zillions and bazillions of spam
articles over the years, making newsgroups unusable for many
end-users, causing much exodus from the Usenet network. Some
believe that this was not incompetence or negligence, but
intentional malice disguised as incompetence and negligence.
Pretending to serve a network while undermining it in deed
comports with the principle of "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish."
Some are firmly convinced this is the real cause of the spam.

A recent anti-spam campaign got a lot of people breathing
down Google's neck. Rather than end the flooding and denial
of service that it caused, Google has decided to stop
peering Usenet feeds altogether. Some have opined that this
is like amputating a leg to remedy a ingrown toenail. Google
users will lose Usenet posting access without recourse.

In February Google is pulling the plug. A large number of
Google users will no longer be able to access Usenet. Those
users will need to find some other way to access Usenet
newsgroups. I like to think of it as 'unplugment day'.

Some posters in the Usenet have been opining that it will
be an apocalyptic event similar to Eternal September when
hordes of AOL users were unleashed on Usenet decades ago.
Since the influx of ISP users decimated politeness on the
Usenet, it is said that September of 1993 never ended.
Usenetizens still call this era the 'Eternal September.'

Now a horde of Google Groups users will be potentially
unleashed on the other Usenet service providers, especially
the free providers. A swarm of new signups is expected. Some
free Usenet providers are already dealing with a spike in
new registrations.

That cutoff date is February 22, 2024. After that time the
Google users will no longer be able to access Usenet content.
In Eternal September time the cutoff date will be the 11131st
day of September, 1993.

Since many Google users are clueless, some likely won't
realize their Usenet access is sunset until the moment it is
cut off. Then there is potential for a search panic as they
try to discover why they cannot access Usenet groups via
Google Groups. It has been jokingly called the Google Groups
Apocalypse or the Google Groups Armageddon. Some users post
Usenet articles counting down the days to the cutoff date.

Some wordplay gives silly effect to these phrases:

groupocalypse ==> group + apocalypse
goopocalypse ==> google + apocalypse
groupsspagheddon ==> groups + spaghetti + armageddon

So now this ditty might make sense:

The 'groupocalypse' looms.
Google 'groupsspaggheddon' cometh.
There shall be zoomer weeping,
Karen wailing,
and boomer gnashing of dentures.

This is a spoof on verses from the books of Matthew and
Revelation:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;
so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man
shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of
his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there
shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

"The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her,
shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping
and wailing ..."

"Weeping and wailing" becomes: "Zoomer weeping, Karen
wailing ..."

"Gnashing of teeth" becomes: "Boomer gnashing of dentures."

I suppose that the "merchants" could spoof for spammers. Yet
I doubt any spammers were, "made rich by her."

Since it is the end of yet another era for Usenet, it is
'apocalyptic' in a lampoon way, like the end of the Usenet
world when the month of Eternal September began. It is a
comical, cosmological holy day, an 'apocalypse' for which we
know the exact date of its coming. It is bombastic burlesque,
a rampant style of humor that runs riot on Usenet.

The impending cessation of Google Usenet peering may cause a
chaotic scramble to find Usenet access. Or it may go hardly
noticed, an anti-apocalyptic whimper in the night. The Google
Groupocalypse might signal a great shift, or it may mererly
result in less spam. That is a change I can live with.

Whether February 22, 2024 comes in like a lion or a lamb, that
day will always be September 11131, 1993. And one thing is
sure: If September is eternal, then Usenet is eternal, too.

--
1_|3_|7_|4_ 38...@sugar.bug | sybershock.com | alt.sources.crypto
1_|8_|7_|4_ sci.crypt | alt.random.noise | talk.politics.crypto
4_|8_|6_|7_ #CipherTag #WaffleTag #Cryptologer
4_|3_|6_|7_ fedi: @fir...@neon.nightbulb.net

Hibou

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Jan 16, 2024, 6:40:23 AMJan 16

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Le 16/01/2024 à 10:19, Anton Shepelev a écrit :
> From: SugarBug <38...@sugar.bug>
> Newsgroups: eternal-september.talk, alt.free.newsservers, alt.september
> Subject: Looming Groupocalypse : The Google Groupsspaggheddon Cometh!
> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:38:43 -0600
>

> A Brain Candy Rant for Tin Hatters and Texters. (SyberShock!) [...]

TL;DR. All the same, I hope this move by Google doesn't damage Usenet
too much. It's good to have fora that aren't owned and controlled by
single companies.

Peter Moylan

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Jan 16, 2024, 8:21:13 AMJan 16

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Anton's rant does, however, help to make it clearer that Usenet
newsgroups will not be going away. Google Groups users -- at least,
those who can't figure out how to transition to an alternative solution
-- will lose access to newsgroups. The rest of us will remain unaffected.

The situation is clear to those of us who have never relied on Google
Groups. I've noticed, though, that those who are used to using Google
Groups are very confused about the situation, and stil have the
impression that newsgroups are being closed down.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

The Doctor

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Jan 16, 2024, 11:35:49 AMJan 16

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In article <20240116131908.349f9af9f6ff356636336060@g{oogle}mail.com>,

Google drops Usenet dues to Google incompetence!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nk.ca Ici doc...@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
Birthday 29 Jan 1969 Born Redhill , England, UK Beware https://mindspring.com

Bertel Lund Hansen

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Jan 16, 2024, 11:47:30 AMJan 16

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The Doctor wrote:

> Google drops Usenet dues to Google incompetence!

You can call Google many things, but "incompetent" is not one of them.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 16, 2024, 12:09:36 PMJan 16

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Bertel Lund Hansen to The Doctor:

> > Google drops Usenet dues to Google incompetence!
>
> You can call Google many things, but "incompetent" is not
> one of them.

Well, the Usenet part of Google Groups is certainly a broken
product made by incompetent people.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Mary Jones

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Jan 16, 2024, 12:14:08 PMJan 16

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TonyCooper

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Jan 16, 2024, 12:34:00 PMJan 16

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On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 20:09:31 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Bertel Lund Hansen to The Doctor:
>
>> > Google drops Usenet dues to Google incompetence!
>>
>> You can call Google many things, but "incompetent" is not
>> one of them.
>
>Well, the Usenet part of Google Groups is certainly a broken
>product made by incompetent people.

To be considered to be "competant", they must make some attempt to do
something and not be able to do it because of their inadequacy.

In this case, there's no indication that they've tried to do anything
they've failed to be able to do.

Google is "uncaring" or "uninterested", not "incompetant'.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

Kenny McCormack

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Jan 16, 2024, 1:45:11 PMJan 16

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In article <uo5vs5$1f48u$1...@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
...

>The situation is clear to those of us who have never relied on Google
>Groups. I've noticed, though, that those who are used to using Google
>Groups are very confused about the situation, and stil have the
>impression that newsgroups are being closed down.

Because from their point of view, it is.

From their point of view, Usenet is (i.e., will be) no more.

--
To my knowledge, Jacob Navia is not a Christian.

- Rick C Hodgin -

TonyCooper

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Jan 16, 2024, 1:49:31 PMJan 16

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On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 12:33:58 -0500, TonyCooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 20:09:31 +0300, Anton Shepelev
><anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
>
>>Bertel Lund Hansen to The Doctor:
>>
>>> > Google drops Usenet dues to Google incompetence!
>>>
>>> You can call Google many things, but "incompetent" is not
>>> one of them.
>>
>>Well, the Usenet part of Google Groups is certainly a broken
>>product made by incompetent people.
>
>To be considered to be "competant",

S/b "incompetent" they must make some attempt to do

Snidely

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Jan 16, 2024, 4:30:34 PMJan 16

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Peter Moylan used thar keyboard to writen:

> On 16/01/24 22:40, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 16/01/2024 à 10:19, Anton Shepelev a écrit :
>>> From: SugarBug <38...@sugar.bug> Newsgroups: eternal-september.talk,
>>> alt.free.newsservers, alt.september Subject: Looming Groupocalypse
>>> : The Google Groupsspaggheddon Cometh! Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024
>>> 03:38:43 -0600
>>>
>>> A Brain Candy Rant for Tin Hatters and Texters. (SyberShock!)
>>> [...]
>>
>> TL;DR. All the same, I hope this move by Google doesn't damage Usenet
>> too much. It's good to have fora that aren't owned and controlled by
>> single companies.
>
> Anton's rant does,

SugarBug's rant. It's not clear that the rhetoric is endorsed by
Anton, although I take it he endorses the practical advice (which is a
very thin part of the post).

I'm also not sure if SugarBug is parodying the panic of GG users, but I
suspect they are. The language is certainly overblown.

" Some have opined that this is like amputating a leg to remedy a

ingrown toenail". Come on, it's conservation of resources. As long as
usenet could be handled with minimum effort, it fit into Google's
operations. But at a time when Google is laying off thousands,
diverting resources to plug leaks on something only a small portion of
its users care about ... isn't going to happen.

> however, help to make it clearer that Usenet
> newsgroups will not be going away. Google Groups users -- at least,
> those who can't figure out how to transition to an alternative solution
> -- will lose access to newsgroups. The rest of us will remain unaffected.
>
> The situation is clear to those of us who have never relied on Google
> Groups. I've noticed, though, that those who are used to using Google
> Groups are very confused about the situation, and stil have the
> impression that newsgroups are being closed down.

Well, Metrist's replies in That Other Thread suggest he hasn't really
absorbed the idea that there are alternatives to GG, but certainly PTD
is aware of that, whether he knows how to accomplish it or not. And
others have posted that there are other web-based ways to read, and for
some, to post, usenet messages.

/dps "I may have to ask Janet for more commas"

--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

The Doctor

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Jan 16, 2024, 5:00:29 PMJan 16

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In article <uo6bv0$1halm$1...@dont-email.me>,

Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>The Doctor wrote:
>
>> Google drops Usenet dues to Google incompetence!
>
>You can call Google many things, but "incompetent" is not one of them.
>

I disagree!

>--
>Bertel, Denmark

James Kuyper

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Jan 16, 2024, 7:35:44 PMJan 16

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On 1/16/24 11:35, The Doctor wrote:
...

> Google drops Usenet dues to Google incompetence!

I don't think so. Ever since Google took over being the dominant Usenet
archive from DejaNews, every change they've made has removed working
functionality from their usenet interface. I've reluctantly concluded
that they are deliberately sabotaging it, in the hope that people will
stop using it, possibly because it's expensive to maintain. If it is
deliberate, it doesn't require incompetence. If they had added
capabilities that were badly designed, that would be a sign of
incompetence, but all they've done is remove features.

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 16, 2024, 8:34:15 PMJan 16

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On 16-Jan-24 18:45, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> In article <uo5vs5$1f48u$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> ...
>> The situation is clear to those of us who have never relied on Google
>> Groups. I've noticed, though, that those who are used to using Google
>> Groups are very confused about the situation, and stil have the
>> impression that newsgroups are being closed down.
>
> Because from their point of view, it is.
>
> From their point of view, Usenet is (i.e., will be) no more.

An up to date version of:
"Fog in channel. Continent Isolated!"

--
Sam Plusnet

Kenny McCormack

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Jan 16, 2024, 9:54:13 PMJan 16

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Exactly. That was the old cliche/joke line that I had in mind.
I just couldn't quite remember the phrasing. Thanks.

--
The last time a Republican cared about you, you were a fetus.

Kaz Kylheku

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Jan 16, 2024, 10:12:53 PMJan 16

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Problem is, what if Google Groups had been, as it were, the continent?

Good heavens, perish the thought!

--
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazi...@mstdn.ca
NOTE: If you use Google Groups, I don't see you, unless you're whitelisted.

Bertel Lund Hansen

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Jan 17, 2024, 2:12:48 AMJan 17

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Kenny McCormack wrote:

>>The situation is clear to those of us who have never relied on Google
>>Groups. I've noticed, though, that those who are used to using Google
>>Groups are very confused about the situation, and stil have the
>>impression that newsgroups are being closed down.
>
> Because from their point of view, it is.
>
> From their point of view, Usenet is (i.e., will be) no more.

Not quite correct. They (probably) don't know what Usenet is, and a lot
of the groups that they are using, remain unchanged because they are
pure Google groups.

In a sense, Usenet has never existed for some of them.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen

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Jan 17, 2024, 2:17:34 AMJan 17

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The Doctor wrote:

>>You can call Google many things, but "incompetent" is not one of them.

> I disagree!

See Tony Coopers answer to Anton Shepelev.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 17, 2024, 2:44:29 AMJan 17

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James Kuyper:

> If they had added capabilities that were badly designed,
> that would be a sign of incompetence, but all they've done
> is remove features.

They have also introduced bugs, such as the one that casued
posts to .c++ appear in .c . But assigning incompetent
developers to Google Groups may have been a deliberate
decision as well... Yet where Google /do/ want to compete,
they ususally do so quite well.

Janet

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Jan 17, 2024, 5:34:21 AMJan 17

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In article <uo5vs5$1f48u$1...@dont-email.me>,
pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...

Perhaps Google is encouraging that false impression
because many of their clients also use gmail for email,
unaware of the existence of superior ISPs.

Janet

Bertel Lund Hansen

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Jan 17, 2024, 5:57:45 AMJan 17

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Janet wrote:

> Perhaps Google is encouraging that false impression
> because many of their clients also use gmail for email,
> unaware of the existence of superior ISPs.

I think it's difficult in Denmark not to find out that there are other
possibilities. Companies usually supply their own email addresses to
their employers, and they are seen by customers who may not have gotten
one themselves.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Janet

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Jan 17, 2024, 6:23:24 AMJan 17

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In article <mn.832a7e81f46d37fd.127094@snitoo>,
snide...@gmail.com says...

> /dps "I may have to ask Janet for more commas"

I'll put you on the waiting list.

As you know,I run a famous Usenet charity care home
for orphaned, divorced and unwanted commas. Most of them
have been rescued from online slavery, abuse, cruelty and
neglect. My intention is to rehabilitate them and
establish a robust new strain, resistant to sloppy editing
by illiterates. Later, if all goes well, we hope to
release breeding pairs back into the wild.

Janet

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 17, 2024, 8:25:24 AMJan 17

to

Bertel Lund Hansen:

> I think it's difficult in Denmark not to find out that
> there are other possibilities.

It should be glabally so, because internet is the same
everywhere.

> Companies usually supply their own email addresses to
> their employers,

Then those accounts are not yours but your employer's, and
are terminated with the employment.

Notice that you dropped two newsgroups in your post...

HVS

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Jan 17, 2024, 8:48:34 AMJan 17

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On 17 Jan 2024, Janet wrote

Where they can blend seamlessly into the landscape of common usage,
like comma chameleons?

--
Cheers, Harvey

Janet

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Jan 17, 2024, 9:11:10 AMJan 17

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In article <XnsB0FC8C78...@135.181.20.170>,
off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk says...

Come and go, come and go

Janet

J. J. Lodder

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Jan 17, 2024, 9:28:10 AMJan 17

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That is clearly a case of 'mopping with the tap open'.
More effort should go into early abortion of unwanted commas,

Jan

lar3ryca

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Jan 17, 2024, 12:25:15 PMJan 17

to

I adopted a rescue comma from your organization₎ but the poor thing was
found nearly frozen to death₎ and was somewhat misshapen as a result.

--
Like most people my age, I'm 79.

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 17, 2024, 1:50:47 PMJan 17

to

On 17-Jan-24 3:12, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2024-01-17, Kenny McCormack <gaz...@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>> In article <o8GpN.1462$idBb...@fx08.ams1>, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>> An up to date version of:
>>> "Fog in channel. Continent Isolated!"
>>
>> Exactly. That was the old cliche/joke line that I had in mind.
>> I just couldn't quite remember the phrasing. Thanks.
>
> Problem is, what if Google Groups had been, as it were, the continent?
>
> Good heavens, perish the thought!

Some might suggest: More incontinent than continent.
(But I couldn't possibly comment.)

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 17, 2024, 2:10:51 PMJan 17

to

I hope you allow those poor commas which have been inverted to rest
comfortably, the correct way up.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 17, 2024, 2:14:06 PMJan 17

to

On 17-Jan-24 7:44, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> James Kuyper:
>
>> If they had added capabilities that were badly designed,
>> that would be a sign of incompetence, but all they've done
>> is remove features.
>
> They have also introduced bugs, such as the one that casued
> posts to .c++ appear in .c . But assigning incompetent
> developers to Google Groups may have been a deliberate
> decision as well... Yet where Google /do/ want to compete,
> they ususally do so quite well.
>

??
If they have (what they judge to be) incompetent developers, wouldn't
they simply get rid of them, rather than continue to pay their salaries?

--
Sam Plusnet

Chris M. Thomasson

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Jan 17, 2024, 3:41:37 PMJan 17

to

For some damn reason, this reminds me of the following scene:

https://youtu.be/G_f9HWp6PLE
(How HR works at Hooli tech company)

lol.

Peter Moylan

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Jan 17, 2024, 4:49:29 PMJan 17

to

Thanks for the reminder. I had almost forgotten the song that goes
"comma comma comma comma comma chameleon".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan

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Jan 17, 2024, 4:55:12 PMJan 17

to

Large organisations often shuffle incompetents around to different jobs,
rather than get rid of them. The classic example is from the early days
of computer companies. The people who were no good at hardware design
were moved to the software group. If they screwed that up, they were
moved to documentation. If they turned out to have no skills at all,
they became managers.

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 17, 2024, 9:23:52 PMJan 17

to

You missed Quality Control/Assurance out of that list.

'Those who can't' get to criticise the work of those who can.

--
Sam Plusnet

TonyCooper

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Jan 17, 2024, 10:41:55 PMJan 17

to

One reason people are moved around in large organizations is that if a
person is incompetent at their job, and is fired for it, that reflects
badly on the manager who hired the incompetent because he/she
exercised bad judgement in hiring the person.

If the incompetent person is transferred to another job, that reflects
well on the person who did the hiring because the brought on someone
who was worthy of promotion and the incompetency is then the problem
of the new manager.

charles

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Jan 18, 2024, 4:45:08 AMJan 18

to

In article <uo9ibu$27862$1...@dont-email.me>,

a modern version of: those who can - do; those who can't - teach; those who
can't even manage that work for OFSTED

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t้ฒ
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Adam Funk

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Jan 18, 2024, 6:00:07 AMJan 18

to

Don't forget "Korma Chameleon", from one of those lists of songs about
curries (along with "Poppadum Preach", "Girlfriend in a Korma", &
"Ring of Fire").

--
books by the blameless and by the dead

Janet

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Jan 18, 2024, 6:59:35 AMJan 18

to

In article <uo92hp$24gab$2...@dont-email.me>,
la...@invalid.ca says...

>
> On 2024-01-17 05:23, Janet wrote:
> > In article <mn.832a7e81f46d37fd.127094@snitoo>,
> > snide...@gmail.com says...
> >
> >> /dps "I may have to ask Janet for more commas"
> >
> > I'll put you on the waiting list.
> >
> > As you know,I run a famous Usenet charity care home
> > for orphaned, divorced and unwanted commas. Most of them
> > have been rescued from online slavery, abuse, cruelty and
> > neglect. My intention is to rehabilitate them and
> > establish a robust new strain, resistant to sloppy editing
> > by illiterates. Later, if all goes well, we hope to
> > release breeding pairs back into the wild.
>

> I adopted a rescue comma from your organization? but the poor thing was
> found nearly frozen to death? and was somewhat misshapen as a result.

I usually supply them in pairs, so that if one is
injured or dies in transit the adopter still has a useful
semi-colon.

Janet

Janet

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Jan 18, 2024, 7:01:36 AMJan 18

to

In article <uo9i17$274in$1...@dont-email.me>,
pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...

You left out some commas there.

Janet

Hibou

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Jan 18, 2024, 8:47:58 AMJan 18

to

Not sure I'd want a half dead semicolon.

I suppose you send them out in Commer vans?

Malcolm McLean

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Jan 18, 2024, 10:03:51 AMJan 18

to

On 17/01/2024 02:54, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> In article <o8GpN.1462$idBb...@fx08.ams1>, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

>> On 16-Jan-24 18:45, Kenny McCormack wrote:
>>> In article <uo5vs5$1f48u$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> ...

>>>> The situation is clear to those of us who have never relied on Google
>>>> Groups. I've noticed, though, that those who are used to using Google
>>>> Groups are very confused about the situation, and stil have the
>>>> impression that newsgroups are being closed down.
>>>

>>> Because from their point of view, it is.
>>>
>>> From their point of view, Usenet is (i.e., will be) no more.
>>

>> An up to date version of:
>> "Fog in channel. Continent Isolated!"
>
> Exactly. That was the old cliche/joke line that I had in mind.
> I just couldn't quite remember the phrasing. Thanks.
>

Google groups has gone.

I've had to go to Mozilla ThunderBird and Eternal September.

An hour to configure, and I think I replied to Kenny's personal email
by accident.

It's much less convenient.

Grrr.

lar3ryca

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Jan 18, 2024, 11:40:39 AMJan 18

to

On 2024-01-18 05:59, Janet wrote:
> In article <uo92hp$24gab$2...@dont-email.me>,
> la...@invalid.ca says...
>>
>> On 2024-01-17 05:23, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <mn.832a7e81f46d37fd.127094@snitoo>,
>>> snide...@gmail.com says...
>>>
>>>> /dps "I may have to ask Janet for more commas"
>>>
>>> I'll put you on the waiting list.
>>>
>>> As you know,I run a famous Usenet charity care home
>>> for orphaned, divorced and unwanted commas. Most of them
>>> have been rescued from online slavery, abuse, cruelty and
>>> neglect. My intention is to rehabilitate them and
>>> establish a robust new strain, resistant to sloppy editing
>>> by illiterates. Later, if all goes well, we hope to
>>> release breeding pairs back into the wild.
>>
>> I adopted a rescue comma from your organization? but the poor thing was
>> found nearly frozen to death? and was somewhat misshapen as a result.

Hmm... apparently your usenet tool(s) are not familiar with unicode.

> I usually supply them in pairs, so that if one is
> injured or dies in transit the adopter still has a useful
> semi-colon.

Ahh... thanks. Knowing that⌟ I adopted another rescue⌟ but apparently⌟
it too⌟ has been injured.

⌟
--
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother.

Adam Funk

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Jan 18, 2024, 12:00:05 PMJan 18

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That's very public-spirited.

--
is it any wonder that my mind's on fire,
imprisoned by the thoughts of what to do?

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 18, 2024, 1:37:40 PMJan 18

to

Thunderbird is... ok, once you get used to it.
My peeve is the close juxtaposition of the "Reply" and "Followup"
buttons, where you only find out what they do by trial and error - with
error leading by a mile.

(I suspect you've already spotted that one)

--
Sam Plusnet

Peter Moylan

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Jan 18, 2024, 4:34:19 PMJan 18

to

Right click in the "header" area of the Thunderbird window, choose
"Customize", and replace your "Reply" button with the one called "Smart
Reply". This is a button that means "reply" when you're reading mail and
"followup" when you're reading a newsgroup. There's a little arrow next
to it that gives you a drop-down menu with other options.

James Kuyper

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Jan 18, 2024, 6:49:17 PMJan 18

to

On 1/18/24 16:34, Peter Moylan wrote:
...

> Right click in the "header" area of the Thunderbird window,

I'm running Thunderbird 115.6.0 on Ubuntu Linux 5.15.0-91-generic, and a
right click in the "header" area has no effect.

> ... choose

> "Customize", and replace your "Reply" button with the one called "Smart
> Reply".

There is, however, a button labelled "More", and one of the options that
comes up when I select "More" is "Customize...". When I select that
option, a small number of aspects of the screen are customizable - but
there is no option for replacing buttons.

Peter Moylan

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Jan 18, 2024, 7:39:22 PMJan 18

to

On 19/01/24 10:49, James Kuyper wrote:
> On 1/18/24 16:34, Peter Moylan wrote: ...
>> Right click in the "header" area of the Thunderbird window,
>
> I'm running Thunderbird 115.6.0 on Ubuntu Linux 5.15.0-91-generic,
> and a right click in the "header" area has no effect.

Sorry. One of the annoying features of Thunderbird is that details like
this change from version to version, so an explanation for one version
won't necessarily work for another.

>> ... choose "Customize", and replace your "Reply" button with the
>> one called "Smart Reply".
>
> There is, however, a button labelled "More", and one of the options
> that comes up when I select "More" is "Customize...". When I select
> that option, a small number of aspects of the screen are customizable
> - but there is no option for replacing buttons.

On the version I'm using, you just drag a button from the "Customise"
window to the header subwindow, using the mouse. Or vice versa, to
remove a button.

But this is Thunderbird 38.8.0 for OS/2, so probably different from what
you have. Oh, and I'm using the traditional 3-pane layout -- I have a
feeling that that's an option that can be changed. And I also have the
CompactHeader addon installed.

I've just noticed that the "Customize" option exists for several
different parts of the Thunderbird window, so you might have to
experiment in different parts of the screen.

Janis Papanagnou

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Jan 19, 2024, 6:55:17 AMJan 19

to

On 18.01.2024 16:03, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> Google groups has gone.
>
> I've had to go to Mozilla ThunderBird and Eternal September.
>
> An hour to configure, and I think I replied to Kenny's personal email
> by accident.
>
> It's much less convenient.

The initial Thunderbird configuration is sick; they support a more
sensible "Smart Reply" feature but instead use an inappropriate one
as default. The user interface to fix that is non-intuitive, even if
you manage to land on the right window by accident after selecting
the "right" menu it's not intuitive. The menus also vary depending
on version (and probably also depending on platform), as I noticed,
and I had problems to find the right window again after an update.

Anyway, my suggestion to try is; right click on the 'Reply' button,
->"Customize...", then you can drag and drop from the new window
with the icons elements to the other window's bar and/or remove
'Reply' button by dragging it to the opened window. - This is what
at least works in my rather old Thunderbird version. - Good luck!

Once you've done the configuration it works pretty well, though.

Janis

Peter Moylan

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Jan 19, 2024, 8:36:00 AMJan 19

to

Yes, that's exactly what I recommended. Get rid of the original "Reply"
button, and Thunderbird works a whole lot better.

In addition, earlier versions of Thunderbird work a whole lot better
than later versions. I'm using a fairly old version. I tried a later
version, but didn't like it. I have a lot of respect for the Thunderbird
development team, but I think they've been sucked in to the Microsoft
"bells and whistles" philosophy. In my opinion they need to delete a lot
of the bells, and even more of the whistles.

A pity. It was one of the best mail/news programs a few years ago. It's
still a whole lot better than Google Groups, but that's not saying much.

Bertel Lund Hansen

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Jan 19, 2024, 9:29:25 AMJan 19

to

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Yes, that's exactly what I recommended. Get rid of the original "Reply"
> button, and Thunderbird works a whole lot better.
>
> In addition, earlier versions of Thunderbird work a whole lot better
> than later versions. I'm using a fairly old version. I tried a later
> version, but didn't like it. I have a lot of respect for the Thunderbird
> development team, but I think they've been sucked in to the Microsoft
> "bells and whistles" philosophy. In my opinion they need to delete a lot
> of the bells, and even more of the whistles.

I agree. I got so tired of Thunderbird that I chose to install Dialog
under Wine, though I prefer clean Linux programs. For my email I asked
for alternatives and was advised about Claws Mail. It's the best email
program that I have tried, small and effective. I think that it runs
under Windows too.

Claws can do Usenet groups as well, but I didn't like the very short
testing I did, but then I already knew Dialog from my Windows days.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 19, 2024, 9:35:00 AMJan 19

to

Bertel Lund Hansen:

> I got so tired of Thunderbird that I chose to install
> Dialog under Wine, though I prefer clean Linux programs.

And there is not shortage of newsreaders for Linux.

> For my email I asked for alternatives and was advised
> about Claws Mail. It's the best email program that I have
> tried, small and effective. I think that it runs under
> Windows too.

Yes. Its full name is Claws of Sylpheed, and it is based on
Sylpheed, which I use for e-mail, Usenet, and Fidonet (via
an NNTP gateway), and mailing lists (via Gmane):

Sylpheed-Claws -- the email client that bites!

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Janis Papanagnou

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Jan 19, 2024, 10:42:37 AMJan 19

to

On 19.01.2024 14:35, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> In addition, earlier versions of Thunderbird work a whole lot better
> than later versions. I'm using a fairly old version.

So do I.

> I tried a later version, but didn't like it.

I think the auto-update of the Linux distro did an update "for me"
and spoiled it already. Newer versions I didn't try; my system is
now (deliberately) frozen. (Another undesired auto-update came
with some new platform update mechanism - I forgot its name - and
made my system further unbootable; I had to purge the whole beast
and install from scratch (without that new mechanism). - The world
seems to rotate backwards...)

> I have a lot of respect for the Thunderbird
> development team, but I think they've been sucked in to the Microsoft
> "bells and whistles" philosophy. In my opinion they need to delete a lot
> of the bells, and even more of the whistles.

If it only would be bells and whistles. Somehow they went two steps
backwards at some point, instead of providing a more sophisticated
interface. (IMO)

I already spoke about a stupid default, and the unintuitive GUI.
If GUI oriented, why don't they just use the images of the buttons
for example? (Just a rhetorical question.)

> A pity. It was one of the best mail/news programs a few years ago. It's
> still a whole lot better than Google Groups, but that's not saying much.

Connecting to mail and newsgroups is fairly easy with Thunderbird
(and I wonder why the OP needed an hour for the setup). But using it
is okay once the GUI got fixed at least a bit. But beyond that it's
just a typical GUI application. The Unix command line newsreader I
used in the 1990's called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much
better usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.

Janis

Malcolm McLean

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:18:02 AMJan 19

to

THunderbird GUI isn't great, but that's not my objection. Though I'm typing
the first line in blue then it goes to black for the second line, and
it's obviously bugged. My objection is that you've got to install
special software to read newsgroups, and it's tied to that machine.
Eternal September allowed me to subscribe and gave me a user id and a
password. But it wasn't obvious how to set up Thunderbird to pass it
back to Eternal September. The secret is that you have to check the "ask
for authorisation" box, then close down Thunderbird and relaunch it.
From downloading Thunderbird to getting that working took about a hour,
mainly because you are looking for fields in the "settings" dialog, and
not finding them. And I'm a professional computer programmer. For a
consumer product, this is just not acceptable.

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:26:33 AMJan 19

to

Janis Papanagnou:

> I already spoke about a stupid default, and the
> unintuitive GUI. If GUI oriented, why don't they just use
> the images of the buttons for example? (Just a rhetorical
> question.)

It is an established fact (see /The Humane Interface/ by Jef
Ruskin) from UI design that a text label is better than a
pictogram or image without annotation.

> The Unix command line newsreader I used in the 1990's
> called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much better
> usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.

Not a command-line, but a text-mode newsreader. Command-
line programs have no GUI, whereas text-modes have one,
which is not raster-based but character-cell-based. I have
never used `nn', but have used other command-line
newsreader -- `tin' and `slrn'.

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:34:14 AMJan 19

to

Malcolm McLean about Thunderbird:

> My objection is that you've got to install special
> software to read newsgroups, and it's tied to that
> machine.

Alternatively, you can use a portable newsreader, such as
Sylpheed. Migration is as simple as copying a directory to
the new machine. You can even run it from a USB stick.

> Eternal September allowed me to subscribe and gave me a
> user id and a password. But it wasn't obvious how to set
> up Thunderbird to pass it back to Eternal September. The
> secret is that you have to check the "ask for
> authorisation" box, then close down Thunderbird and
> relaunch it.

This has been a staple newbie question in the E.-S. support
group for years.

Janis Papanagnou

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:45:29 AMJan 19

to

On 19.01.2024 17:17, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>
> THunderbird GUI isn't great, but that's not my objection. Though I'm typing
> the first line in blue then it goes to black for the second line,

Strange. (I've never seen that.)

> and it's obviously bugged.

(A platform or version issue? - We cannot clarify that here.)

> My objection is that you've got to install
> special software to read newsgroups, and it's tied to that machine.

The first part is understandable; NNTP is an own protocol that
requires a piece of software (an application) to implement it.

(Here I must note that I'm not a fan of all-web-based-software
all done in a browser.)

I see your point about being machine bound; sort of "non-cloud".

> Eternal September allowed me to subscribe and gave me a user id and a
> password. But it wasn't obvious how to set up Thunderbird to pass it
> back to Eternal September. The secret is that you have to check the "ask
> for authorisation" box, then close down Thunderbird and relaunch it.

Ah, right. When my ISP shut down Usenet access and I wend to E.S.
I was repelled by the necessity to login with credentialy - my
ISP access had not required that (and I think AIOE.org also not),
and this may be (if only small) an obstacle; I forget about it
despite the necessity to re-enter credentials from time to time.

> From downloading Thunderbird to getting that working took about a hour,
> mainly because you are looking for fields in the "settings" dialog, and
> not finding them. And I'm a professional computer programmer. For a
> consumer product, this is just not acceptable.

I see.

I probably took it easier because in former configurations there
was the necessity, IIRC, to configure yet more details manually.
That's what probably influenced by positive view on how easy it
appeared to me with the newer versions.

Janis

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:45:55 AMJan 19

to

Janis Papanagnou:

> The Unix command line newsreader I used in the 1990's
> called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much better
> usable

Not /was/ but /is/: <http://www.nndev.org/>

Malcolm McLean

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:55:15 AMJan 19

to

I'm trying out the sig. But is it clickable?
--
Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

Janis Papanagnou

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:56:39 AMJan 19

to

On 19.01.2024 17:26, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Janis Papanagnou:
>
>> I already spoke about a stupid default, and the
>> unintuitive GUI. If GUI oriented, why don't they just use
>> the images of the buttons for example? (Just a rhetorical
>> question.)
>
> It is an established fact (see /The Humane Interface/ by Jef
> Ruskin) from UI design that a text label is better than a
> pictogram or image without annotation.

Annotations are fine. That Thunderbird window, though, has a text
label that is non-informative ("smart-reply" = "followup"?) and
the icon isn't matching the button (has no "recognition value").
I consider that an extremely (and unnecessary) bad interface.

>
>> The Unix command line newsreader I used in the 1990's
>> called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much better
>> usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.
>
> Not a command-line, but a text-mode newsreader.

Right. (I didn't think when typing.)

> [...] I have

> never used `nn', but have used other command-line
> newsreader -- `tin' and `slrn'.

When 'nn' wasn't supported any more on our AIX platform I also
switched to 'tin' (or rather 'rtin'), but only for short. It
was okay but I liked 'nn' better.

I've heard good things about 'slrn' but never looked at it.

Janis

Scott Lurndal

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:58:23 AMJan 19

to

Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> writes:
>Janis Papanagnou:
>
>> I already spoke about a stupid default, and the
>> unintuitive GUI. If GUI oriented, why don't they just use
>> the images of the buttons for example? (Just a rhetorical
>> question.)
>
>It is an established fact (see /The Humane Interface/ by Jef
>Ruskin) from UI design that a text label is better than a
>pictogram or image without annotation.
>
>> The Unix command line newsreader I used in the 1990's
>> called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much better
>> usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.
>
>Not a command-line, but a text-mode newsreader. Command-
>line programs have no GUI, whereas text-modes have one,
>which is not raster-based but character-cell-based. I have
>never used `nn', but have used other command-line
>newsreader -- `tin' and `slrn'.

xrn is the best of both worlds. text-mode with a minimal gui.

Anton Shepelev

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Jan 19, 2024, 11:59:36 AMJan 19

to

Malcolm McLean:

> I'm trying out the sig. But is it clickable?
> --
> Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
> https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

Depends on one's client. The convention, however, is to
enclose URLs in angular brackets:
<https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm>
In many clients, this causes URLs to become clickable. I
much prefer to copy them into the browser by hand, though.

Kaz Kylheku

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Jan 19, 2024, 12:37:16 PMJan 19

to

On 2024-01-19, Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> THunderbird GUI isn't great, but that's not my objection. Though I'm typing
> the first line in blue then it goes to black for the second line, and

My my, hey hey.

--
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazi...@mstdn.ca
NOTE: If you use Google Groups, I don't see you, unless you're whitelisted.

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 19, 2024, 1:28:29 PMJan 19

to

Thanks for the suggestion, but here (version 115.6.1 (64 bit) running on
Win10), right clicking on the "Reply" button does nothing.

If I hit the "More" button at the far right of that row of buttons,
"Customise" then appears as the last entry in a drop down menu.
However that "Customise" only offers a very few options, & none of them
allow any changes to the buttons.

I'm still at square one.

--
Sam Plusnet

lar3ryca

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Jan 19, 2024, 3:16:52 PMJan 19

to

I'm running 115,6,1 (64 bit) but on Ubuntu MATE. I would imagine the
user interface is the same on the Win 10 and Linux versions.

Do you have a 'Followup' button with a drop-down arrow? The default is
"Followup".

Once this conversation started mentioning the "Reply" button, I took
notice of them, and have been using the Followup instead of
'right-click->Followup to Newsgroup', and have not sent a reply to
sender since.

--
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns
something he can learn in no other way.
~ Mark Twain.

Dan Purgert

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Jan 19, 2024, 3:17:00 PMJan 19

to

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.c.]

On 2024-01-19, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Malcolm McLean:
>
>> I'm trying out the sig. But is it clickable?
>> --
>> Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
>> https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm
>
> Depends on one's client. The convention, however, is to
> enclose URLs in angular brackets:
><https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm>
> In many clients, this causes URLs to become clickable. I
> much prefer to copy them into the browser by hand, though.

Both are "clickable" here in slrn -- well, at least "U" (note, that's
specifically a capital "U", when reading either post) finds both the
representation in Malcom's signature, and your angle-bracketed version.

(They're also "clickable" when running slrn via xterm, but that's not
quite as representative, I think).

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

Bertel Lund Hansen

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Jan 19, 2024, 3:32:33 PMJan 19

to

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> Ah, right. When my ISP shut down Usenet access and I wend to E.S.
> I was repelled by the necessity to login with credentialy - my
> ISP access had not required that (and I think AIOE.org also not),
> and this may be (if only small) an obstacle; I forget about it
> despite the necessity to re-enter credentials from time to time.

I have used ES for years and I only have to enter the access info once -
unless I make a new install. I also do not recognize the relaunch thing.
Is that because I always choose manual install? It's finished in
minutes.

The detailed setup with extensions and all took longer, but the basic
function is working with the first step.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Chris Elvidge

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Jan 20, 2024, 9:34:15 AMJan 20

to

On 19/01/2024 16:45, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 19.01.2024 17:17, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>
>> THunderbird GUI isn't great, but that's not my objection. Though I'm typing
>> the first line in blue then it goes to black for the second line,
>
> Strange. (I've never seen that.)

If you don't leave a blank line when replying inline (like this), it can
happen. However that's just in the composition screen. It all reverts to
black when sent. No colour info in plain text.

>
>> and it's obviously bugged.
>
> (A platform or version issue? - We cannot clarify that here.)
>
>> My objection is that you've got to install
>> special software to read newsgroups, and it's tied to that machine.

How is this true? TBird (v52) works well for me with Thunderbrowse
add-on (Win10) for NNTP News, eMail, RSS feeds. Default setup directory
copied to Linux (Slackware, Mint) works without complaining (except
installing/reinstalling some add-ons).
Thunderbrowse is the reason I keep to v52.

>
> The first part is understandable; NNTP is an own protocol that
> requires a piece of software (an application) to implement it.
>
> (Here I must note that I'm not a fan of all-web-based-software
> all done in a browser.)
>
> I see your point about being machine bound; sort of "non-cloud".
>
>> Eternal September allowed me to subscribe and gave me a user id and a
>> password. But it wasn't obvious how to set up Thunderbird to pass it
>> back to Eternal September. The secret is that you have to check the "ask
>> for authorisation" box, then close down Thunderbird and relaunch it.
>
> Ah, right. When my ISP shut down Usenet access and I wend to E.S.
> I was repelled by the necessity to login with credentialy - my
> ISP access had not required that (and I think AIOE.org also not),
> and this may be (if only small) an obstacle; I forget about it
> despite the necessity to re-enter credentials from time to time.
>
>> From downloading Thunderbird to getting that working took about a hour,
>> mainly because you are looking for fields in the "settings" dialog, and
>> not finding them. And I'm a professional computer programmer. For a
>> consumer product, this is just not acceptable.
>
> I see.
>
> I probably took it easier because in former configurations there
> was the necessity, IIRC, to configure yet more details manually.
> That's what probably influenced by positive view on how easy it
> appeared to me with the newer versions.
>
> Janis
>

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT CREATE ART FROM DUNG