Space before ? or !
pimpom
word and a following exclamation mark or question mark. I'm not
sure where I picked up the idea - several decades have passed
since I started learning English in missionary school. In any
case, I've noticed in recent years that most writers place either
of the two punctuation marks right after the preceding word
without any space in between. Is putting a space before ? or !
also an acceptable convention or have I simply been wrong all
these years ?
Gourbi
> I always used to think that there should be a space between a
> word and a following exclamation mark or question mark. I'm not
> sure where I picked up the idea - several decades have passed
> since I started learning English in missionary school.
In French, there must be a space between a word and the following
exclamation mark, question mark, semicolon, colon, as well as in the
case of quotation marks (e.g., « word »).
But I have never been aware of such rules for English.
HVS
I've seen it done, but it's always looked quite wrong to me -- it
reads like a typographical affectation -- and any guides I've seen
for non-native writers say "don't leave a space".
(Here's an example of one such guide:
http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/punctuationtext.htm. I've no idea
how authoritative that site is, but it's typical of the advice that's
out there.)
I certainly can't see any reason why one would use a space before a
question mark, but none before a full stop.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Pat Durkin
news:g504lv$b4n$1...@registered.motzarella.org
I don't know of any such rule, but I think a space would be considered a
nuisance. However, whether in manual writing, or in typing, depending
on the style of writing or the font, I have found myself inserting
spaces, at times, to ease the reading--say, between an apostrophe and
double quotes, or single quotation mark followed by a double, or vice
versa. On the internet, though, since one doesn't know the standard
font that the viewer is using, it is probably better _not_ to add spaces
to separate text from punctuation.
Perhaps someone here can find info in one or the other of the popular
publishing style manuals.
pimpom
"HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9AD5B69A...@news.albasani.net...
> On 08 Jul 2008, pimpom wrote
>
>> I always used to think that there should be a space between a
>> word and a following exclamation mark or question mark. I'm
>> not
>> sure where I picked up the idea - several decades have passed
>> since I started learning English in missionary school. In any
>> case, I've noticed in recent years that most writers place
>> either
>> of the two punctuation marks right after the preceding word
>> without any space in between. Is putting a space before ? or !
>> also an acceptable convention or have I simply been wrong all
>> these years ?
>
> I've seen it done, but it's always looked quite wrong to me --
> it
> reads like a typographical affectation -- and any guides I've
> seen
> for non-native writers say "don't leave a space".
>
> (Here's an example of one such guide:
> http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/punctuationtext.htm. I've
> no idea
> how authoritative that site is, but it's typical of the advice
> that's
> out there.)
One mistake on that page immediately caught my eye. In the
topmost greyed area where it demonstrates proper usage of
exclamation marks, it says "It was schocking!" A variant of
Skitt's Law in action? Shocking! :)
>
> I certainly can't see any reason why one would use a space
> before a
> question mark, but none before a full stop.
>
Thanks to all who replied. No space it is, then!
mm
wrote:
>
>One mistake on that page immediately caught my eye. In the
>topmost greyed area where it demonstrates proper usage of
>exclamation marks, it says "It was schocking!" A variant of
>Skitt's Law in action? Shocking! :)
This mistake is caused by bad diet. It's the result of eating too much
schocolate.
>> I certainly can't see any reason why one would use a space
>> before a
>> question mark, but none before a full stop.
>>
>Thanks to all who replied. No space it is, then!
>
If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Gourbi
> For French typography, it say "the space of the line should be set
> before a colon", but it doesn't mention semicolons etc. in this context,
> and in the examples it is inconsistent about where or not to add
> spaces. Gourbi can perhaps correct me, but in any case I think the
> required space is not the space of the line but a fixed thin space.
You are absolutely right, Athel (cf.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponctuation#Signes_de_ponctuation_occidentaux).
Cece
The books available in your missionary school may have been old books
from England. It was a rule then and there; it is not now.
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> I certainly can't see any reason why one would use a space before a
> question mark, but none before a full stop.
By chance, two books I've been dipping back into in the last few days
both have the space before question marks, exclamation marks, colons,
and semi-colons. They are the 1909 impression of the Everyman /Natural
History of Selborne/ and the 1946 Penguin George Bernard Shaw /Black
Girl in Search of God/. /The Complete Letter-Writer/ (perhaps of 1832,
but my copy is incomplete) does it, too. At random from the shelves, I
find an 1891 /Robbery Under Arms/ and the 1934 Nonesuch Swift do it,
while a 1938 book on Australian bush life called /Flying Fox and
Drifting Sand/ doesn't. More recent books don't use the space.
--
Mike.
HVS
I though I'd seen that somewhere. Walford's "Old and New London",
published in the 1870s, does it -- as well as using what we now think
of as the "American" convention of placing terminal punctuation
inside quotation marks.
It's probably the association with 19th-century books that makes it
appear, when I see it now, as an anachronistic affectation: it would
be like seeing someone using the "Oxford-street" or "Tottenham Court-
road" spellings.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> pimpom wrote:
>> I always used to think that there should be a space between a word and
>> a following exclamation mark or question mark. I'm not sure where I
>> picked up the idea - several decades have passed since I started
>> learning English in missionary school.
>
> In French, there must be a space between a word and the following
> exclamation mark, question mark, semicolon, colon, as well as in the
> case of quotation marks (e.g., « word »).
That still applies in formal French typography: the rule applies to any
punctuation mark consisting of two or more parts (all the ones you
mention, but not , or .). It should of course be a non-breaking space,
so you mustn't, for example, allow a line break before a semicolon
(though you'll often see it in web pages constructed by people who
don't know about non-breaking spaces).
>
> But I have never been aware of such rules for English.
There was certainly a rule in the past, but it fell into complete disue
during the 20th century.
--
athel
geo...@ankerstein.org
How can I resist? You have been wrong all these years!
GFH
Gourbi
> On 2008-07-08 18:29:48 +0200, Gourbi <Gour...@gmx.de> said:
>
>> pimpom wrote:
>>> I always used to think that there should be a space between a word
>>> and a following exclamation mark or question mark. I'm not sure where
>>> I picked up the idea - several decades have passed since I started
>>> learning English in missionary school.
>>
>> In French, there must be a space between a word and the following
>> exclamation mark, question mark, semicolon, colon, as well as in the
>> case of quotation marks (e.g., « word »).
>
> That still applies in formal French typography: the rule applies to any
> punctuation mark consisting of two or more parts (all the ones you
> mention, but not , or .). It should of course be a non-breaking space,
> so you mustn't, for example, allow a line break before a semicolon
> (though you'll often see it in web pages constructed by people who don't
> know about non-breaking spaces).
And sometimes in the case of people who should know about non-breaking
spaces, for instance in Le Monde online (http://www.lemonde.fr).
Liberation online mostly doesn't apply the rule for French typography
(http://www.liberation.fr). And so on...
>>
>> But I have never been aware of such rules for English.
>
> There was certainly a rule in the past, but it fell into complete disue
> during the 20th century.
That's interesting, I didn't know that.
HVS
Was it a hard-and-fast "rule", or was it an optional typographical
convention used by certain publishers?
(An honest question, that -- I have no idea.)
pimpom
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eef1f787-c488-4586...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
So, it seems I was not totally wrong after all, even if the
practice is much less prevalent than not leaving a space. I also
used to put a space before a colon, but not before commas and
full stops. I still find reading that last word in a sentence
easier when there's a space between it and an exclamation mark, a
question mark or a colon. Commas, semi-colons and periods are
different because they don't blend as much with the preceding
word.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
news:eef1f787-c488-4586...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> I
> find an 1891 /Robbery Under Arms/
A great book, that, or so I thought when I read it about half a century
ago. I had completely forgotten its existence.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On 09 Jul 2008, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote
>
>> On 2008-07-08 18:29:48 +0200, Gourbi <Gour...@gmx.de> said:
[ ... ]
>>
>>>
>>> But I have never been aware of such rules for English.
>>
>> There was certainly a rule in the past, but it fell into
>> complete disue during the 20th century.
>
> Was it a hard-and-fast "rule", or was it an optional typographical
> convention used by certain publishers?
>
> (An honest question, that -- I have no idea.)
I don't know for certain. I think it was just the usual custom.
Hart's Rules (34th edn., 1983) says nothing about it for English
typography, at least, not where I'd expect to find it, under "spacing"
or "punctuation".
For French typography, it say "the space of the line should be set
before a colon", but it doesn't mention semicolons etc. in this
context, and in the examples it is inconsistent about where or not to
add spaces. Gourbi can perhaps correct me, but in any case I think the
required space is not the space of the line but a fixed thin space.
--
athel
Odysseus
Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> Hart's Rules (34th edn., 1983) says nothing about it for English
> typography, at least, not where I'd expect to find it, under "spacing"
> or "punctuation".
>
> For French typography, it say "the space of the line should be set
> before a colon", but it doesn't mention semicolons etc. in this
> context, and in the examples it is inconsistent about where or not to
> add spaces. Gourbi can perhaps correct me, but in any case I think the
> required space is not the space of the line but a fixed thin space.
Apparently the "space of the line" is what's usually called a "word
space". The term for the variety of space I prefer in such uses is
indeed "thin space"; its width is typically the same as that of the
period and comma. I don't know whether or not there's a corresponding
HTML entity.
--
Odysseus
Adam Funk
> Apparently the "space of the line" is what's usually called a "word
> space". The term for the variety of space I prefer in such uses is
> indeed "thin space"; its width is typically the same as that of the
> period and comma. I don't know whether or not there's a corresponding
> HTML entity.
LaTeX: \,
HTML:  
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/sgml/entities.html
--
Do not use _literally_ to intensify a metaphorical exaggeration.
People in a famine relief camp may be _literally_ starving, but
it is not a thing to say about oneself towards lunchtime.
(Gowers, _The Complete Plain Words_)
Adam Funk
Interesting, and I learned a new word (insécable); thanks.
--
This sig no verb.
I3
AND NO COMMA between "is and then" either! "No space it is".
So what is right? So which is right? And why do people place the close
quotation marks AFTER a period or a comma? This Americanism is raising
my ire. Is that where IRELAND got its name? Or HOLLAND - HOL LAND - hol
in Afrikaans means hollow - most of the Netherlands is below sea level,
in a hollow.
As far as a space before a ? or ! is concerned, imagine word processing
software placing the question or exclamation mark on a new line? It
would look hideous.
Pat Durkin
news:1216328975.115567@wblv-ip-nnrp-2
I think the comma before "then" is just fine, now. You or anyone can
leave off the "then", of course.
Odysseus
I3 <i3no...@nowhere.net> wrote:
<snip>
> [...] And why do people place the close quotation marks AFTER a
> period or a comma? This Americanism is raising my ire. [...]
It isn't an Americanism: indeed, American style manuals tend to prefer
the always-inside rule. Most writers who place stops outside quotation
marks only do so when the quoted material lacks any terminal punctuation
of its own, which practice is sometimes known as the "British style";
the _CMoS_ calls this the "alternative system".
--
Odysseus
HVS
> In article <1216328975.115567@wblv-ip-nnrp-2>,
> I3 <i3no...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> [...] And why do people place the close quotation marks AFTER a
>> period or a comma? This Americanism is raising my ire. [...]
>
> It isn't an Americanism: indeed, American style manuals tend to
> prefer the always-inside rule.
That's what he said -- placing the marks *after* the punctuation is
an American style.
Odysseus
HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18 Jul 2008, Odysseus wrote
>
> > In article <1216328975.115567@wblv-ip-nnrp-2>,
> > I3 <i3no...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> [...] And why do people place the close quotation marks AFTER a
> >> period or a comma? This Americanism is raising my ire. [...]
> >
> > It isn't an Americanism: indeed, American style manuals tend to
> > prefer the always-inside rule.
>
> That's what he said -- placing the marks *after* the punctuation is
> an American style.
Apologies to I3: being used to seeing the issue framed in terms of the
placement of stops with respect to closing quotes, rather than the
converse, I misread his question.
--
Odysseus
pimpom
>
> As far as a space before a ? or ! is concerned, imagine word
> processing software placing the question or exclamation mark on
> a new line? It would look hideous.
>
mark in a new line from time to time and when I do, I try to make
some changes in one of the previous lines to alter the way the
preceding line ends. But is a relatively new technology a good
enough reason to base a rule on? It doesn't look very pretty
either if a paragraph ends with, say, "it was I." and there's no
room for "I." in the penultimate line.
I accept that leaving a space just before ? or ! is incorrect.
I'm just arguing - not very seriously - against the logic given
here. :)
pimpom
> processing software placing the question or exclamation mark on
> a new line? It would look hideous.
>
HVS
>
> "I3" <i3no...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:1216328975.115567@wblv-ip-nnrp-2...
>>
>> As far as a space before a ? or ! is concerned, imagine word
>> processing software placing the question or exclamation mark on
>> a new line? It would look hideous.
>>
> I've actually experienced that awkward placement of a punctuation
> mark in a new line from time to time and when I do, I try to make
> some changes in one of the previous lines to alter the way the
> preceding line ends. But is a relatively new technology a good
> enough reason to base a rule on? It doesn't look very pretty
> either if a paragraph ends with, say, "it was I." and there's no
> room for "I." in the penultimate line.
Agreed, but people who don't re-write sentences to avoid a single-
line "I" aren't paying sufficient attention to the appearance or
formatting of their text.
(Part of the final edit of all my reports includes rewriting to try
to remove single-word lines at the end of paragraphs -- no matter how
long or short the word may be.)
> I accept that leaving a space just before ? or ! is incorrect.
> I'm just arguing - not very seriously - against the logic given
> here. :)
--
angelgl...@yahoo.com
However, this style is common in Asian countries; and I've even seen it
in booklets of European CD releases.
HVS
As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it's a convention
that's used in French and used to be used in English -- but it's no
longer standard in modern English.
Adam Funk
> As far as a space before a ? or ! is concerned, imagine word processing
> software placing the question or exclamation mark on a new line? It
> would look hideous.
It certainly would, but you can prevent it by using a non-breaking
space (even Word can do this).
--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)
Odysseus
HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21 Jul 2008, pimpom wrote
>
<snip>
> > I've actually experienced that awkward placement of a punctuation
> > mark in a new line from time to time and when I do, I try to make
> > some changes in one of the previous lines to alter the way the
> > preceding line ends. But is a relatively new technology a good
> > enough reason to base a rule on? It doesn't look very pretty
> > either if a paragraph ends with, say, "it was I." and there's no
> > room for "I." in the penultimate line.
>
> Agreed, but people who don't re-write sentences to avoid a single-
> line "I" aren't paying sufficient attention to the appearance or
> formatting of their text.
>
> (Part of the final edit of all my reports includes rewriting to try
> to remove single-word lines at the end of paragraphs -- no matter how
> long or short the word may be.)
There's no need for rewriting to avoid such defects with proper
typesetting software, especially if it composes by the paragraph rather
than by the line. Lacking that, though, as someone mentioned elsethread,
these days even word-processors -- the more full-featured ones anyway --
will let you insert non-breaking spaces to avoid single-word lines.
--
Odysseus