that darn apostrophe
Linda V
Explorer is acting up this morning, so I've just got to ask you all about
it.
Is there an official rule about the pronunciation of possessives of names
ending in S? This issue came up for me because of the movie "Jesus' Son"
and the fact that so many people around me pronounce it as if it were "Jesus
Son".
I was raised Catholic, and we (the priest, the congregation, the nuns,
everybody) ALWAYS pronounced "Jesus'" with three syllables. Not pronouncing
that unwritten possessive S in "Jesus' Son" grates on my ears as badly as
"Chris' birthday party" pronounced as "Chris birthday party".
What do you think? Even if you don't have a rule to cite, I'd love to know
what side you're on. :)
Thanks!
Linda
Pat Durkin
"Linda V" <li...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1Pf38.34995$LS3.160...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
"z" sound(1), and I think that I add an "s" after the "z" sound (not a
full syllable). In a name like Cass' I don't, unless the Cass' is at
the end of a sentence or clause, or stands alone, in which case I
prolong the "s" sound. "Whose house?" "Cass'" (This is assuming
Cass is a given name.) As a surname, I would say "the Casses' house",
but again have the "es" ending with a "z"sound enriched by a
possessive "s".
Of course, if asked to repeat it I would say (singular owner)
"Jesusez name", and "Cassez house", but that would be emphatic.
Plural owner "Cassez'", would be a prolonged "z" sound.
(1) some people pronounce the last syllable as in "us".
I hope this is clear.
George Hardy
> I was raised Catholic, and we (the priest, the congregation, the nuns,
> everybody) ALWAYS pronounced "Jesus'" with three syllables.
So? In English pronunciation and spelling are only vaguely related.
(Signed) (Put the "g" in that word.)
GFH
Linda V
news:7c7350d8.02012...@posting.google.com...
> "Linda V" <li...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<1Pf38.34995$LS3.160...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
>
> > I was raised Catholic, and we (the priest, the congregation, the nuns,
> > everybody) ALWAYS pronounced "Jesus'" with three syllables.
>
> So? In English pronunciation and spelling are only vaguely related.
My question is about pronunciation, not spelling.
How do you pronounce it, George?
:)
Linda
Robert Lieblich
>
> This is probably something that has been hashed out here before, but my MS
> Explorer is acting up this morning, so I've just got to ask you all about
> it.
>
> Is there an official rule about the pronunciation of possessives of names
> ending in S?
No. Or else there are several and you get to take your pick.
> This issue came up for me because of the movie "Jesus' Son"
> and the fact that so many people around me pronounce it as if it were "Jesus
> Son".
>
> I was raised Catholic, and we (the priest, the congregation, the nuns,
> everybody) ALWAYS pronounced "Jesus'" with three syllables. Not pronouncing
> that unwritten possessive S in "Jesus' Son" grates on my ears as badly as
> "Chris' birthday party" pronounced as "Chris birthday party".
>
> What do you think? Even if you don't have a rule to cite, I'd love to know
> what side you're on. :)
First of all, get Netscape. Then the following, taken from
something I posted here nine days ago, will be of some help.
<quote>
<http://www.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=591370&secid=.-&hh=1>. What
you're looking for is in paragraphs D2 and 3. There's also
<http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html#1>. Although Strunk's
original book is quite old, the same rule appears in later
copyrighted versions edited and revised by E.B. White and commonly
known as Strunk & White.
</quote>
On the specific question you ask, tradition omits the "s" from both
spelling and pronunciation for certain ancient names -- Jesus,
Moses, Xerxes. In general, I think it best, when dealing with
possessives of words ending in the "s" sound, to include the added
"s" if you pronounce it (If you say "Charleses" for the possessive,
write it "Charles's") and omit it only if you don't. So if you say
"Jesuses sake," write "Jesus's sake." Most of those who differ from
you will not pronounce the "s" after the apostrophe, saying instead
"Jesus sake"; spelling it as they pronounce it gives "Jesus' sake."
Unfortunately, people do often use apostrophe without "s" even when
they pronounce the "s" that isn't there. So (if you think of an
occasion when someone is reading to you from a text you can see)
you'll see "Charles' dog" and hear "Charles's dog." And, in your
church, you'll see "Jesus' sake" and hear "Jesus's sake" despite the
lack of that possessive "s".
There is no single "official" solution. I prefer to stick to
spelling it as I say it, and I say things like "Jesus' sake" without
sounding the "s" that could be after the apostrophe but isn't
there. But those who pronounce the invisible "s" aren't *wrong*.
It's just a case where different people follow different usages.
--
Bob Lieblich
Methinks I do explain too much
Jeff Newman
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
> Linda V wrote:
> >
> > Is there an official rule about the pronunciation of possessives of names
> > ending in S?
>
> > This issue came up for me because of the movie "Jesus' Son"
> > and the fact that so many people around me pronounce it as if it were "Jesus
> > Son".
> So if you say
> "Jesuses sake," write "Jesus's sake." Most of those who differ from
> you will not pronounce the "s" after the apostrophe, saying instead
> "Jesus sake"; spelling it as they pronounce it gives "Jesus' sake."
Isn't there a specific and narrow exception with the word "sake"? For
convenience' sake?
Pat Durkin
"Jeff Newman" <newma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:220120022036590741%newma...@earthlink.net...
For Pete's sake, For Heaven's sake ?
Now, we have the "s" sound in the -ce ending, and I grant it is
tempting not to put the possessive "'s" in place, but I would use it
"convenience's sake" , even though I would pronounce it as with (from
my examples) "Cass' sake".
Raymond S. Wise
Well, you asked how *I* would punctuate it, so here goes. "Jesus,"
like some other ancient names, such as "Moses" and "Aristophanes" is
pronounced with a final /s/ and when written in the possessive form,
with an apostrophe but no added <s>, continues to be pronounced in the
same way.
I have read of a rule where a modern name ending with <s> becomes a
possessive by adding an apostrophe and no <s>, but the result is
pronounced by adding an extra /s/, /@s/, or /@z/ to the name. I don't
believe the people who hold to this rule use it in the case of ancient
names such as those I gave above, and in any case, it seems a bizarre
rule to me. However, it appears to still be in use, because the other
day when I saw Ken Burns's documentary about Mark Twain, the narrator
made reference to /'hEnrI 'klEm@ns@z dET/, but the Closed Captioning
read "Henry Clemens' death." I would have pronounced it as the
narrator did, but written it "Henry Clemens's death."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Wes Groleau
And some "authorities" say no 's' after the apostrophe
if and only if the word ending in 's' is plural.
--
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau
Linda V
news:3C4EC772...@spamcop.net...
>
> And some "authorities" say no 's' after the apostrophe
> if and only if the word ending in 's' is plural.
I might be inclined to agree with that. It would make my life so much
easier. :)
Maybe neighbors are to blame for much of this. I mean.. When a house
belongs to the Joneses, you can say that it is the Jones house -- as a
description instead of a possessive. Similarly, we say things like "the
Anita Hill case" or "that awful Britney Spears album". But you could also
say you're going to the Jones's house or the Jones' house. If, in a world
in which "Jones'" or "Jones's" are always pronounced with the added /@z/
(hope I did that right), no one will take notice if you don't, because
they'll all assume you were saying that you were going to the Jones house.
It's just a weird thought from my half-asleep brain.
L
Linda V
> > I was raised Catholic, and we (the priest, the congregation, the nuns,
> > everybody) ALWAYS pronounced "Jesus'" with three syllables. Not
pronouncing
> > that unwritten possessive S in "Jesus' Son" grates on my ears as badly
as
> > "Chris' birthday party" pronounced as "Chris birthday party".
> >
> > What do you think? Even if you don't have a rule to cite, I'd love to
know
> > what side you're on. :)
Raymond wrote, in part...
> Well, you asked how *I* would punctuate it, so here goes. "Jesus,"
> like some other ancient names, such as "Moses" and "Aristophanes" is
> pronounced with a final /s/ and when written in the possessive form,
> with an apostrophe but no added <s>, continues to be pronounced in the
> same way.
>
> I have read of a rule where a modern name ending with <s> becomes a
> possessive by adding an apostrophe and no <s>, but the result is
> pronounced by adding an extra /s/, /@s/, or /@z/ to the name. I don't
> believe the people who hold to this rule use it in the case of ancient
> names such as those I gave above, and in any case, it seems a bizarre
> rule to me. However, it appears to still be in use, because the other
> day when I saw Ken Burns's documentary about Mark Twain, the narrator
> made reference to /'hEnrI 'klEm@ns@z dET/, but the Closed Captioning
> read "Henry Clemens' death." I would have pronounced it as the
> narrator did, but written it "Henry Clemens's death."
My question is actually about pronunciation, not punctuation, but I thank
you for your input, Raymond.
I think it's very odd that so many sources mention "ancient names" as being
in a special class. What is so different about ancient names that they
should be treated differently?
:)
Linda
Raymond S. Wise
As Tevye said in *Fiddler on the Roof,* "Tradition!"
Seriously, that's the only rationale I can see: *The American Heritage
Book of English Usage* makes a reference to a problem with "difficult
or awkward" pronunciation, but all the examples they give are of
ancient names: Jesus, Moses, Achilles, Hercules, Ramses, and
Xerxes.[1] It seems to me that modern names are no real change--either
you have no problem pronouncing the extra /s/ or /@z/, or you have the
same problem with both the ancient and the modern names.
Note:
[1] From http://www.bartleby.com/64/82.html
Howard G Walker
"If it's pronounced, add it; if not, don't."
George Hardy
Three syllables, just like you. But I do not pronounce "decade"
as you do. I do not change the "a" into an "i" and without the
final "e" to make it long. One's pronunciation of "decade" is a
good indication of whether a person is Catholic or not.
GFH
Linda V
I'm asking about pronunciation, not spelling. Whether you add it or not is
of no concern to me. I want to know if you pronounce "Jesus' Son" as "Jesus
Son" or "Jesusez Son". Thanks.
Linda
"Howard G Walker" <Walker...@att.net> wrote in message
news:3C514496...@att.net...
Linda V
news:7c7350d8.02012...@posting.google.com...
> "Linda V" <li...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<ZCl38.35140$2w5.167...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
> > "George Hardy" <geo...@mail.rlc.net> wrote in message
> > news:7c7350d8.02012...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Linda V" <li...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:<1Pf38.34995$LS3.160...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
> > >
> > > > I was raised Catholic, and we (the priest, the congregation, the
nuns,
> > > > everybody) ALWAYS pronounced "Jesus'" with three syllables.
> > >
> > > So? In English pronunciation and spelling are only vaguely related.
> >
> > My question is about pronunciation, not spelling.
> >
> > How do you pronounce it, George?
>
> Three syllables, just like you. But I do not pronounce "decade"
> as you do. I do not change the "a" into an "i" and without the
> final "e" to make it long. One's pronunciation of "decade" is a
> good indication of whether a person is Catholic or not.
I'm sorry. If this "decade" stuff is a joke, it's going straight over my
head. What are you talking about?
L
Pat Durkin
> "George Hardy" <geo...@mail.rlc.net> wrote in message
> news:7c7350d8.02012...@posting.google.com...
> > But I do not pronounce "decade"
> > as you do. I do not change the "a" into an "i" and without the
> > final "e" to make it long. One's pronunciation of "decade" is a
> > good indication of whether a person is Catholic or not.
>
> I'm sorry. If this "decade" stuff is a joke, it's going straight
over my
> head. What are you talking about?
Variants in pronunciation. I don't know whose is whose here, but I
have heard BrE pronunciation as "de-cayd", stress on last syllable,
but "long" vowels nicely enounced. I learned it as "deck-ud, -ut"
(stressed first syllable), and only long after learning it by rote did
I see it in print. ( Well, 2 years to a 6-year-old is a long time).
It becomes arguable as to which is "correct", since the prefix meaning
10 should probably kept in the same syllable. Hm, maybe the Brits say
"deke-ayed", and really do have it all together. ;>
Anyway, there are many BrE speakers who are Catholic, and probably say
it the same way other BrE speakers do. I don't know how non-Catholic
AmE speakers say the word.
Otherwise, George is talking about "decide", and I do a Rosan
Rosannadanna.
Linda V
news:u5376id...@corp.supernews.com...
I see. This must be a British distinction he's making. As far as I know,
it has no parallel over here.
L
Roberta Davies
Maybe there are too many older books referring to Biblical and ancient
names, which of course would use the traditional apostrophe rules.
Just a guess.
Robbie
Roberta Davies
>
> And some "authorities" say no 's' after the apostrophe
> if and only if the word ending in 's' is plural.
I thought they all agreed on that point. The modern style of
"apostrophe-s with everything" refers only to singulars ending in S.
Robbie
Roberta Davies
>
> While I thank you for your effort, Howard, you misunderstood my question.
> I'm asking about pronunciation, not spelling. Whether you add it or not is
> of no concern to me. I want to know if you pronounce "Jesus' Son" as "Jesus
> Son" or "Jesusez Son". Thanks.
For what it's worth, I write "Jesus' son" and say "Jesus's son". Or I
would if I ever had occasion to use the phrase. (Jesus didn't have a
son, did he?)
An exception might be in the case of poetry, in which the metre of the
poem would have to be taken into account. As in the case of
Shakespeare's epitaph: "Good friend, for Jesus' sake forbear / To move
these bones interred here" (if I remember rightly).
Robbie
Linda V
news:3C520720...@virgin.net...
> Linda V wrote:
> >
> > While I thank you for your effort, Howard, you misunderstood my
question.
> > I'm asking about pronunciation, not spelling. Whether you add it or not
is
> > of no concern to me. I want to know if you pronounce "Jesus' Son" as
"Jesus
> > Son" or "Jesusez Son". Thanks.
>
> For what it's worth, I write "Jesus' son" and say "Jesus's son". Or I
> would if I ever had occasion to use the phrase. (Jesus didn't have a
> son, did he?)
Not that I know of, but this thead was inspired by the movie "Jesus' Son"
and the different ways I've heard people pronounce it.
:)
L
meirman
<li...@nospam.com> posted:
>This is probably something that has been hashed out here before, but my MS
>Explorer is acting up this morning, so I've just got to ask you all about
>it.
>
>Is there an official rule about the pronunciation of possessives of names
>ending in S? This issue came up for me because of the movie "Jesus' Son"
>and the fact that so many people around me pronounce it as if it were "Jesus
>Son".
>
>I was raised Catholic, and we (the priest, the congregation, the nuns,
>everybody) ALWAYS pronounced "Jesus'" with three syllables. Not pronouncing
I'm glad to here it.
Gathering bits from several posts in this thread, I don't think it
does Jesus any honor to have his name, in the possessive, either
pronounced OR written with only 2 s's. Some people say there is an
except for Moses and James and Charles IIRC, but I don't see it there
either. I think people should recognize when they see them that these
are not errors, but I think it is archaic to insist on this. I have
no problem with Aristophanes's, or in the plural, Aristophaneses'.
and pronounced eezuz at the end. Come to think of it, because of the
3 s's "Jesus's" is pronounced eezusuz at the end.
>that unwritten possessive S in "Jesus' Son" grates on my ears as badly as
>"Chris' birthday party" pronounced as "Chris birthday party".
>
>What do you think? Even if you don't have a rule to cite, I'd love to know
>what side you're on. :)
>
>Thanks!
>
>Linda
>
>
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years
blip
i pronounce it Haysoos, son. HTH
blip
blip