Convert cold fill washing machine to hot and cold fill

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colin...@hotmail.com

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Nov 19, 2006, 10:16:00 PM11/19/06
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The current rage for cold fill only machines is all very well for bio
powders and combi boilers, but some of us want a machine that has a hot
fill. And before it is suggested that a machine never gets to draw hot
water, that is not the case with my current machine which invariably
fills up with hot water.
Hence is it possible to convert a cold fill to a h & c fill machine???
Has anyone done it??

TVMIA

Martin Pentreath

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Nov 20, 2006, 4:06:54 AM11/20/06
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I think it would be a horribly complicated operation, involving not
only replumbing the inside workings of the machine, but also
reprogramming the circuit board!

Are there really no machines left that have hot fill? I've not had
cause to buy one in about 12 years, but I'm sure my current model is
reaching the end of its natural life, and I'd like to have a hot fill
one (even with my combi, I'm not sure why having a combi should make
any difference).

Palindr☻me

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Nov 20, 2006, 5:18:03 AM11/20/06
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Something like a hose from h&C supply going to a high-hysteresis
thermostatic mixer unit, with a non-return valve on the cold side, and a
hose from that going to the "cold" fill?

It has to be a high hysteresis "bang-bang" valve because of the possible
pressure difference between supplies. The non-return valve prevents the
possibility of contaminating the cold water main.

If the mixer is variable, you would set it to give an average supply
temperature set to the highest acceptable temperature for any clothing
material that is going to be washed..

This does mean that the machine does get water supplied at much the same
temperature throughout the year, heated hopefully by a cheaper power
source than full-price electricity, and washing cycles are significantly
quicker as there is shorter delays for water heating.

I've thought about it - but most of the year now I get my hot water from
an immersion heater, so it would actually cost me more - in hot water
sat in pipes.

But it would be fairly straightforward to do - without interfering with
the machine and/or invalidating its warranty. It's obviously not as good
as a machine taking both supplies and able to set its own temperature
for different cycles or parts of them.

--
Sue

Martin Pentreath

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Nov 20, 2006, 5:51:31 AM11/20/06
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Palindr☻me wrote:

> But it would be fairly straightforward to do - without interfering with
> the machine and/or invalidating its warranty. It's obviously not as good
> as a machine taking both supplies and able to set its own temperature
> for different cycles or parts of them.

But without changing things round inside the machine it will take in
hot water not just for the wash, but also for each rinse in the cycle
(I think there are usually three). Using hot water to rinse isn't
necessary, and the small amount you save from using gas-heated water to
wash in will be eaten up several times over by doing hot rinses.

Palindr☻me

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Nov 20, 2006, 6:27:12 AM11/20/06
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As in, "It's obviously not as good as a machine taking both supplies and
able to set its own temperature for different cycles or parts of them." ;)

My old thing actually appears to use hot (or at least warm) water for
rinses, as the clothes are still pretty warm after the spin cycle. I can
get the washing to the line and all pegged up without my fingers
freezing off...so that is one economy measure I think that I will skip.

--
Sue

hob

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Nov 20, 2006, 1:18:01 PM11/20/06
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<colin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163992560....@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I would look to the water inputs, rather than to the circuitry and valve
control.

A caveat - I do not know if the "no-hot-setting" machines use plastic that
cannot take heat, e.g., hot water will soften the plastic hose connection
and the hose will slowly come off the valve threads.

("How-to" follows the types of easily used valves)

1) If you are handy with plumbing, you could mount lever-type ball valves
with spigots and use them to block cold water and pass through hot water
into the cold water input.

2) There are wall-mounted manual "lever-throw" shutoff valves made
specifically for washing machine input water control that take hose
conenctions.
I would use this type of shut-off because the lever is one motion, and
many do not require "hard plumbing". To use it, it would be a "yes-no" kind
of selection.

Some use one lever to simultaneously control flow on both outputs, and
some are two-lever types that control the hot and cold water separately.
The two lever-type (one for hot and one for cold) is the easiest for your
application -otherwise, you will need two one-lever wall-mount types.

3) There are also mixing valves (made to keep pipes in walls from sweating
by mixing some hot water in with the cold) that could be used to get a "hot"
wash from a cold machine.
It would go in-line to the cold water input, but you would need to adjust
the mixing proportions for the particular wash, usually with a screwdriver
or wrench. Not as clean as the lever.

4) There are "selector" "Y"s that you could use, where you turn a small
lever on the "Y" to open one side and shut off the other. Most are made to
select without pressure on them, and the valve will be hot. And you are
always holding it and moving the hose around

-------

I have never seen a cold-only input machine, but less us assume there is
no hot water input, just cold, for purposes of discussion. (The cold water
input on a dual input machine will be connected in the same manner)

The idea is to feed hot water only into the machine.

Connect the non-machine end of the hose on the cold water connection of the
machine to an open "Y".

If the new wall-mounted valve is not so equipped, connect a back-flow valve
on each free end of the "Y", so water can only flow into the wash machine.

Connect one end of the backcheck valve on the "Y" through one side of the
wall mounted one-throw shutoff valve, and connect the shutoff valve to the
cold water spigot. Now you can turn off the cold water.

Connect the other backcheck valve to the "second one-lever valve"/ "other
side of the two lever valve", and connect the shutoff valve to the hot water
spigot. Now you can turn on the hot water.

Mark the valve-lever(s) position for hot wash and cold wash.

To wash hot, turn off the cold water lever and turn on the hot water lever.
Only hot water will be fed into the machine.

To wash cold, reverse the levers.

or something like that...

> TVMIA
>


Ed Sirett

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Nov 20, 2006, 6:11:52 PM11/20/06
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I installed an AEG today and even it did not have hot fill, what chance
lesser machines?


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
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Gas Fitting Standards Docs here: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

MOP CAP

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Nov 20, 2006, 6:44:22 PM11/20/06
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In article <ejtcno$5de$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk>, Ed Sirett
<e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>If on the occasion you really want a hot fill Just turn off the cold
water at the faucet. Not elegant, but works.

Chuck P.

meow...@care2.com

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Nov 21, 2006, 4:59:38 AM11/21/06
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colin...@hotmail.com wrote:

Its not at all practical to make a cold fill machine into a dual fill.

If you want to do it manually, there is one easy way, and thats to run
a bit of microbore in thru the back of the machine and into the top of
the soap dispenser, and fill it before starting the cycle. The pipe can
be clipped securely to the machine body at the back to stop it coming
out of place, and a few turns would enable it to take up the WM
movement.

I cant think of any reason to do it though, especially as it'll give
you poorer wash results.


NT

Martin Pentreath

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Nov 21, 2006, 6:13:00 AM11/21/06
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meow...@care2.com wrote:

> I cant think of any reason to do it though, especially as it'll give
> you poorer wash results.

Hi NT,

The reason would be to save money and energy by heating the water by
gas rather then electricity.

I don't understand why you think the result would be a poorer wash. So
long as the water in the machine during the wash phase is at the
temperature required by the powder (say 40°C) it doesn't matter how
you heat it.

Martin

phil-new...@ipal.net

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Nov 21, 2006, 10:11:28 AM11/21/06
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In alt.engineering.electrical Martin Pentreath <martin_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:

| meow...@care2.com wrote:
|
|> I cant think of any reason to do it though, especially as it'll give
|> you poorer wash results.
|
| Hi NT,
|
| The reason would be to save money and energy by heating the water by
| gas rather then electricity.

Technically speaking, it's the same energy. One might argue that gas
heating more easily allows some heat to escape via the flue. The money
it costs, however, can be altogether different matter.

This assumes a utility energy supply. People with a natural free energy
supply make different choices based on the supply and storage capacity.
And usually, gas isn't among the free choices whereas electricity more
commonly is. And gas is usually a fossil fuel (hydrogen generated from
electricity of course is quite the opposite).


| I don't understand why you think the result would be a poorer wash. So
| long as the water in the machine during the wash phase is at the

| temperature required by the powder (say 40?C) it doesn't matter how
| you heat it.

If always a cold rince is OK, go for it.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-200...@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

David Hansen

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Nov 21, 2006, 10:43:56 AM11/21/06
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On 21 Nov 2006 15:11:28 GMT someone who may be
phil-new...@ipal.net wrote this:-

>This assumes a utility energy supply. People with a natural free energy
>supply make different choices based on the supply and storage capacity.
>And usually, gas isn't among the free choices whereas electricity more
>commonly is. And gas is usually a fossil fuel (hydrogen generated from
>electricity of course is quite the opposite).

However, the choice of having a hot and cold fill washing machine is
being eliminated by the manufacturers, simply in order to make
things easier for themselves. If hot water is available heated by a
solar panel burning electricity to heat cold water is not a good
idea on any grounds.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Pete C

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Nov 21, 2006, 11:52:08 AM11/21/06
to

Just add another fill valve to the back of the machine, tee into the
cold fill pipe on the inside, and use a toggle switch or timer relay
to switch between the two.

Fill valve should be about £5 from a spares place or free off an old
WM at the local tip.

cheers,
Pete.

HLAH

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Nov 21, 2006, 1:04:16 PM11/21/06
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"Ed Sirett" <e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ejtcno$5de$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...

> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 01:06:54 -0800, Martin Pentreath wrote:
>
>> colin...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> The current rage for cold fill only machines is all very well for bio
>>> powders and combi boilers, but some of us want a machine that has a hot
>>> fill. And before it is suggested that a machine never gets to draw hot
>>> water, that is not the case with my current machine which invariably
>>> fills up with hot water.
>>> Hence is it possible to convert a cold fill to a h & c fill machine???
>>> Has anyone done it??
>>>
>>> TVMIA
>>
>> I think it would be a horribly complicated operation, involving not
>> only replumbing the inside workings of the machine, but also
>> reprogramming the circuit board!
>>
>> Are there really no machines left that have hot fill? I've not had
>> cause to buy one in about 12 years, but I'm sure my current model is
>> reaching the end of its natural life, and I'd like to have a hot fill
>> one (even with my combi, I'm not sure why having a combi should make
>> any difference).
>
> I installed an AEG today and even it did not have hot fill, what chance
> lesser machines?
>
>
> --
Whirlpool seem to be the only manufacturer to still fit hot and cold feeds,
well according to the Sainsbury online electrical store.

I would have thought with the increasing popularity of solar water heating
there would be an increased demand for such machines not less.

H


Martin Pentreath

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Nov 21, 2006, 1:42:55 PM11/21/06
to
phil-new...@ipal.net wrote:
> Technically speaking, it's the same energy. One might argue that gas
> heating more easily allows some heat to escape via the flue. The money
> it costs, however, can be altogether different matter.

Hi Phil,

I take your point that 1kwh is 1kwh whether it's gas-powered or
electrical. However, I was thinking of energy in overall production
terms rather than just what the end-user gets. Obviously to produce
1kwh of electricity uses a lot more gas at a gas-powered power station
than it would take to produce 1kwh of power from the combi in my boiler
cupboard.

Given the increasingly dire warnings of climate change that we get,
that seems more important than a couple of pence off the utilities
bills.

Martin

Tony Bryer

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Nov 21, 2006, 2:01:26 PM11/21/06
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On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:04:16 -0000 Hlah wrote :
> I would have thought with the increasing popularity of solar water
> heating there would be an increased demand for such machines not
> less.

The problem, IIRC, is that modern machines use a lot less water than
older ones, and given the reaction time of thermostats there is
reckoned to be a risk of dumping very hot water on clothes which need
to be washed on a cool setting. I don't know about anyone else, but I
never use a hotter wash than 50C.

But no doubt cost saving comes into it too.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

meow...@care2.com

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Nov 21, 2006, 3:50:15 PM11/21/06
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Martin Pentreath wrote:
> meow...@care2.com wrote:

> > I cant think of any reason to do it though, especially as it'll give
> > you poorer wash results.

> Hi NT,
>
> The reason would be to save money and energy by heating the water by
> gas rather then electricity.

Well, with gas you've got boiler flue losses and pipe heat losses. OTOH
the gas that makes the leccy probably uses even more energy.

> I don't understand why you think the result would be a poorer wash. So
> long as the water in the machine during the wash phase is at the
> temperature required by the powder (say 40°C) it doesn't matter how
> you heat it.

Heating from cold to target temp in the washtub gives the washpowder
more time in the tub, as the wash timer doesnt start ticking till its
heated. Second it gives the powder the chance to work at different
temps, instead of all at the same temp. This is especially important
with bio powders, fill the tub with 60C water and you get no bio
action, fill it at 20 and heat it, and it will work in a different way
at the different temp bands it goes thru, giving a better wash. So
you've got 2 ways in which you'll see poorer results.

The 3rd problem is that the hot fill water will be too hot for the
clothes in many cases.

But really far more important is just that its a waste of human time
and energy.


NT

hob

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Nov 21, 2006, 4:26:30 PM11/21/06
to
I noticed most of the replies were from Britain - so a question about these
cold water machines... (We tend to "Warm wash" here)

So what do asthmatics in Britain/Europe do when (per doctor's instructions)
they have to wash their bedding in hot water to kill the house mites that
aggravate asthma? Are there machines available on prescription, or bedding
services for them?

Do you add 3x-4x more chlorine and oxide bleach, since they are much less
chemically active in cold water?

Is all cold water softened in Britain, or do you always add some borax or
other softener, or do you just throw clothes away when the fibers have built
up with soap residue after a couple years?

What do you do about diapers ("nappies")?
(Cold water washing diapers in high efficiency machines here is a sure
road to e-coli, in those and subsequent loads, and soap residue is a leading
source of diaper rash here.)

Just curious.

<colin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163992560....@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Palindr☻me

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Nov 21, 2006, 4:41:26 PM11/21/06
to
hob wrote:
> I noticed most of the replies were from Britain - so a question about these
> cold water machines... (We tend to "Warm wash" here)
>
> So what do asthmatics in Britain/Europe do when (per doctor's instructions)
> they have to wash their bedding in hot water to kill the house mites that
> aggravate asthma? Are there machines available on prescription, or bedding
> services for them?
>
> Do you add 3x-4x more chlorine and oxide bleach, since they are much less
> chemically active in cold water?
>
> Is all cold water softened in Britain, or do you always add some borax or
> other softener, or do you just throw clothes away when the fibers have built
> up with soap residue after a couple years?
>
> What do you do about diapers ("nappies")?
> (Cold water washing diapers in high efficiency machines here is a sure
> road to e-coli, in those and subsequent loads, and soap residue is a leading
> source of diaper rash here.)
>
> Just curious.
>

They are cold *fill* machines. They still hot wash (very hot if you
wish) - using an electric element in the machine to heat the water. They
just don't connect to both the hot and cold water supply in order to fill.

Many machines now use a very tiny amount of water - so the heating
requirement is much, much less than times gone by - and they use much,
much less water than the US machines I have seen.

--
Sue


hob

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:03:29 PM11/21/06
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"Palindr?me" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:12m6sk7...@corp.supernews.com...

ok - thanks

> --
> Sue
>
>
>
>


Potrice

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Nov 14, 2020, 5:15:06 PM11/14/20
to
I have just bought a single fill washing machine and modified the water input
by using a switched 3/4 inch switched tap splitter.
I have to turn the hot water on by hand, and when it's full turn it off and turn the cold on.---
But I have noticed when it is filling it automatically switches from the left hand fill in the soap dispenser, to the middle one. Meaning the two solenoids (hot and cold) are still fitted and working.
All they've done is blank off the hot fitting and siamesed the two pipes internally.
So all that would be need to make it dual fill would be
One pipe fitting and two bits of hose.

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/convert-cold-fill-washing-machine-to-hot-and-cold-fill-306005-.htm

alan_m

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Nov 14, 2020, 6:22:48 PM11/14/20
to
On 14/11/2020 22:15, Potrice wrote:
> I have just bought a single fill washing machine and modified the water
> input
> by using a switched 3/4 inch switched tap splitter. I have to turn the
> hot water on by hand, and when it's full turn it off and turn the cold
> on.---
> But I have noticed when it is filling it automatically switches from the
> left hand fill in the soap dispenser, to the middle one. Meaning the two
> solenoids (hot and cold) are still fitted and working.
> All they've done is blank off the hot fitting and siamesed the two pipes
> internally.
> So all that would be need to make it dual fill would be
> One pipe fitting and two bits of hose.
>

Cold water only fill is used these days so that you don't "cook" in
common stains. If you fill with hot water you could make stains permanent.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Nov 15, 2020, 5:38:56 AM11/15/20
to
Yes but the issue was often that in many homes where the water is only
heated by an immersion heater, switching to hot might not actually give hot
water, so then the machine would still need to heat the water itself, and
also of course the control equipment to create the exact temp needed would
not work if scolding hot water came in first.
I suspect these variables are why they went over to cold fill, they then
have full control.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Potrice" <f5382fe0db4a7990...@example.com> wrote in message
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Dimitris Tzortzakakis

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Nov 16, 2020, 2:40:26 AM11/16/20
to
Στις 15/11/2020 12:15 π.μ., ο/η Potrice έγραψε:
> I have just bought a single fill washing machine and modified the water
> input
> by using a switched 3/4 inch switched tap splitter. I have to turn the
> hot water on by hand, and when it's full turn it off and turn the cold
> on.---
> But I have noticed when it is filling it automatically switches from the
> left hand fill in the soap dispenser, to the middle one. Meaning the two
> solenoids (hot and cold) are still fitted and working.
> All they've done is blank off the hot fitting and siamesed the two pipes
> internally.
> So all that would be need to make it dual fill would be
> One pipe fitting and two bits of hose.
>
In Europe, all washing machinew have been and are cold fill. They all
are now computer controlled, with a microcontroller obviously, and a
PCB, of course. Why would you want to make it hot fill as you're not
saving up anything, here most houses have solar water heaters so hot
water is practically free, even with minimum sunshine in winter.it's
also very usual in Israel (in hebrew it's dud shemesh- דיד (שמש
in greek it's heliothermo-ηλιόθερμο. there are many types of cold fill
washing machines here. from 5 kilos up to 10 and with the usual
universal brushed motors for AC to brushless direct drive motors.
traditionally they had asynchronous motors with run capacitors and
electromechanical programmers. very durable.you could even take the
motor for rewinding. now the whole motor-tacho assembly must be
exchanged if defective.

Buffalo

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Nov 30, 2020, 7:17:19 PM11/30/20
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"Dimitris Tzortzakakis" wrote in message news:rotad7$jq5$1...@dont-email.me...
So, it seems that the common opinion is that body oil stains on
sheets,pillowcases, socks, underwear, etc and oil and grease stains in
clothes will come out cleaner with COLD than with HOT water?
I find that very hard to believe.
--
Buffalo

alan_m

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Nov 30, 2020, 9:29:07 PM11/30/20
to
On 01/12/2020 00:17, Buffalo wrote:

> So, it seems that the common opinion is that body oil stains on
> sheets,pillowcases, socks, underwear, etc and oil and grease stains in
> clothes will come out cleaner with COLD than with HOT water?
> I find that very hard to believe.

No, its that washing machines are designed to take out the majority of
common stains which for some require a cold wash and for others maybe a
hotter wash so they start with cold and then gradually heat the water.
It is the detergent doing most of the work rather than the hot water.

For instance, try getting blood out using hot water first.

Consider hand washing dinner plates and cooking utensils - you are not
going to plunge your hands into 90C water but you can still get all the
fat etc. off with much colder water and some washing up liquid.

If you take a bath or shower what temperature water do you use to clean
yourself of all the bodily fats etc.? You'd probably have to give
yourself a boil wash if you didn't use soap, gel or shampoo.

95% of machine washes in my household are with cold water, no heating,
in my washing machine.

HVS

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Dec 1, 2020, 6:49:31 AM12/1/20
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On 01 Dec 2020, Buffalo wrote
You seem to be confusing the terms "cold fill" and "cold wash": the
machine will heat the cold-fill water when you set it for a hot wash.

Given the reduced amount of water used by modern washing machines and
the distance in most houses between the HW tank and the washing
machine, most of the "hot fill" will be what's currently sitting in
the pipes, and the machine will have to heat it up anyway if you're
going to run a hot wash.

--
Cheers, Harvey

Max Demian

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Dec 1, 2020, 7:09:48 AM12/1/20
to
On 01/12/2020 11:49, HVS wrote:
> On 01 Dec 2020, Buffalo wrote

>> So, it seems that the common opinion is that body oil stains on
>> sheets,pillowcases, socks, underwear, etc and oil and grease
>> stains in clothes will come out cleaner with COLD than with HOT
>> water? I find that very hard to believe.
>
> You seem to be confusing the terms "cold fill" and "cold wash": the
> machine will heat the cold-fill water when you set it for a hot wash.
>
> Given the reduced amount of water used by modern washing machines and
> the distance in most houses between the HW tank and the washing
> machine, most of the "hot fill" will be what's currently sitting in
> the pipes, and the machine will have to heat it up anyway if you're
> going to run a hot wash.

I had a hot+cold fill machine and it took 30 minutes to fill with hot,
so I started off with a programme that did a cold fill and pushed the
knob in and turned it round to the right programme and pulled it out
again to do what I wanted it to do (which started by heating the water
up). I think they are supposed to have valves to equalise the pressure
of hot and cold which was probably not set right.

(Y-hoses were provided for if you only had a cold tap.)

I have noted that the big clanky knob method, which turns round during
operation was continued even when they obviously used microcontrollers
to sequence the operations. Now the big knob (if present) stays still.

--
Max Demian

alan_m

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Dec 1, 2020, 2:49:05 PM12/1/20
to
On 01/12/2020 11:49, HVS wrote:

> You seem to be confusing the terms "cold fill" and "cold wash": the
> machine will heat the cold-fill water when you set it for a hot wash.

Not really confusing the issues. I was pointing out that a modern
machine doesn't need to do a boil wash to remove certain contaminants
from clothes and that the temperature of the water possibly plays a
lesser part in the total washing process.


Irrespective of the final temperature of the water and/or the selected
program the wash will start with a cold wash with detergent to try and
remove common stains that may be cooked in if hotter water is first
used. With this initial cold wash the machine has enough water to
complete the wash. It doesn't discard this water or detergent for the
rest of the wash - it just heats the water, if required. There is no
point at which a hot feed would be used on a modern machine.

>
> Given the reduced amount of water used by modern washing machines and
> the distance in most houses between the HW tank and the washing
> machine, most of the "hot fill" will be what's currently sitting in
> the pipes, and the machine will have to heat it up anyway if you're
> going to run a hot wash.
>

Especially as modern machines are also designed to use a lot less water
than their counter parts of yesteryear. The last machine I've owned that
had a (working) hot feed was 30 years ago!

Buffalo

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Dec 14, 2020, 7:28:23 PM12/14/20
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"alan_m" wrote in message news:i2lo3g...@mid.individual.net...
Ever do your dishes in cold water? :)
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Buffalo
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