Question on Powersave 1200
CS
if not thousands, of dollars in energy bills. It is targeted and designed
specifically for residential customers.
The commercial appeared on the Sci Fi channel, which is well known for
advertisements from reputable companies. yeah
So it hooks to your breaker box, reduces the power factor of all your
appliances (including, according to the commercial, TV's, heaters, ovens,
stoves, dishwashers, microwaves, water heaters, toasters, air conditioners,
and coffee makers (implies your coffee will taste better as well). It also
filters and recycles the excess electricity in your power lines.
It also cools down TV's, because they, like your other appliances, are
receiving too much power. This device only supplies the power your
appliances require, so there will be no heat in anything not designed to
actually heat something. So throw away those fans on your computer!
Fascinating stuff. It's UL tested and listed, and has been "recognized by
the Department of Energy". They even have a report on their web site. It
sure looks like it's from the DOE. Oh, it was a "Program of the DOE", but
the actual report was written by the Motor Challenge Information
Clearinghouse, with a website www.motor.doe.gov that, while having an .gov
on the end, does not seem to exist. Or the US government's computers are
all down. (they aren't)
Anyway, there's also a "university study" of this device. Except that it's
two "PHD's" in the electrical engineering department of Santa Clara
University. One is a part timer, the other is a study-for-hire type. It's
a 10 page report, by two PHD's, from a university, but there's no notes,
biblio, or anything to show that it wasn't cobbled together in 20 minutes
off the cuff. And it doesn't even mention this device by name. But hey,
it's a study.
It's only $300. Plus shipping and handling.
http://www.power-save.com/product.html
http://www.power-save1200.com/
Funny thing about the FAQ's. They know how much the unit costs, they know
how long it'll take to pay for itself (6 to 12 months), but when asked how
much money folks can save every month, a long list follows "it depends on".
I'm not a huge math guy, but it can't be that tough. Maybe they can tap one
of those PHD's to figure it out.
My question is this;
Is this bullshit, baloney, flim flam, or snake oil?
No doubt it must do something. Heck, it might just do some of the stuff it
claims. But while they commercial claims power plants "can" charge for low
power factors, they forget to mention that this applies almost exclusively
to the industrial and commercial sectors. Residential customers rarely, if
ever, generate a low enough power factor to be noticed by power plants.
I expect a certain amount of dumbing down in commercials when dealing with
technical stuff, but this seems to be a collection of outright lies.
Anyway, I was wondering if this was just a grossly overpriced capacitor, and
if it can significantly alter a sine wave.
CS
krw
says...
> Just saw a commercial for the Powersave 1200, which will save you hundreds,
> if not thousands, of dollars in energy bills. It is targeted and designed
> specifically for residential customers.
Save you "thousands"? What if you don't pay "thousands"?
> The commercial appeared on the Sci Fi channel, which is well known for
> advertisements from reputable companies. yeah
Nobody ever lies on TV, right? The commercial is on the SciFi
network, assume it is also SciFi. ;-)
> So it hooks to your breaker box, reduces the power factor of all your
> appliances (including, according to the commercial, TV's, heaters, ovens,
> stoves, dishwashers, microwaves, water heaters, toasters, air conditioners,
> and coffee makers (implies your coffee will taste better as well). It also
> filters and recycles the excess electricity in your power lines.
Well, you don't want your coffee to taste of stale electricity, do
you?
> It also cools down TV's, because they, like your other appliances, are
> receiving too much power. This device only supplies the power your
> appliances require, so there will be no heat in anything not designed to
> actually heat something. So throw away those fans on your computer!
Ah, the laws of thermodynamics has been repealed, at last!
> Fascinating stuff. It's UL tested and listed, and has been "recognized by
> the Department of Energy". They even have a report on their web site. It
> sure looks like it's from the DOE. Oh, it was a "Program of the DOE", but
> the actual report was written by the Motor Challenge Information
> Clearinghouse, with a website www.motor.doe.gov that, while having an .gov
> on the end, does not seem to exist. Or the US government's computers are
> all down. (they aren't)
UL doesn't certify efficacy. If the certification is real (doubt
this) it only means that it shouldn't catch fire or electrocute
someone while being used as designed.
> Anyway, there's also a "university study" of this device. Except that it's
> two "PHD's" in the electrical engineering department of Santa Clara
> University. One is a part timer, the other is a study-for-hire type. It's
> a 10 page report, by two PHD's, from a university, but there's no notes,
> biblio, or anything to show that it wasn't cobbled together in 20 minutes
> off the cuff. And it doesn't even mention this device by name. But hey,
> it's a study.
THey find doctors to say that diet pills work too. Well, if that's
all you eat...
> It's only $300. Plus shipping and handling.
Crap! Demand free S&H! These charges are always bogus! ;-)
> http://www.power-save.com/product.html
>
> http://www.power-save1200.com/
>
> Funny thing about the FAQ's. They know how much the unit costs, they know
> how long it'll take to pay for itself (6 to 12 months), but when asked how
> much money folks can save every month, a long list follows "it depends on".
Nor what you pay for electricity... Hmm, sounds like a constant
dollar source. I wonder if the Fed knows about this?
> I'm not a huge math guy, but it can't be that tough. Maybe they can tap one
> of those PHD's to figure it out.
Maybe they better buy off a guy from the math department at that
great educational institution too.
> My question is this;
>
> Is this bullshit, baloney, flim flam, or snake oil?
Yes, yes, yes, and most certainly.
> No doubt it must do something.
It'll heat the room. Contrary to what they say, thermodynamics is
alive and well.
> Heck, it might just do some of the stuff it
> claims. But while they commercial claims power plants "can" charge for low
> power factors, they forget to mention that this applies almost exclusively
> to the industrial and commercial sectors. Residential customers rarely, if
> ever, generate a low enough power factor to be noticed by power plants.
Residential customers are *not* charged for PF, at least in the US.
The only claim they could weasel around is the heating of your
internal home wiring due to reactive current.
> I expect a certain amount of dumbing down in commercials when dealing with
> technical stuff, but this seems to be a collection of outright lies.
Lies in a commercial, what a concept!
> Anyway, I was wondering if this was just a grossly overpriced capacitor, and
> if it can significantly alter a sine wave.
Don't forget the pilot light, telling you that it's on the job,
saving you *thousands*. ...and for "only" $300...
--
Keith
Salmon Egg
MPG.20f9f1515...@news.individual.net, "krw" <k...@att.bizzzz>
wrote:
> Residential customers are *not* charged for PF, at least in the US.
> The only claim they could weasel around is the heating of your
> internal home wiring due to reactive current.
I tried mining Their faq to find out how the device works. I could not.
It is true, we get charged for actual energy consumed on our side of the
meter. That includes extra heating of the conductors outside the appliance.
It is not clear to me how this device knows how much correction is required
for the various devices under various loads. I also agree, that if there is
extra current flow in the appliance, it is difficult to understand how that
waste energy can be reduced by this device.
I also have to include that this is a scam.
Bill
-- Support the troops. Impeach Bush. Oh, I forgot about Cheney.
bi...@abc.net
successfully.
This is the first system I have seen aimed at the domestic market, these
types of system work well, particularly where you have a large inductive
load (electric motors).
Electric motors used in washers, fans, air-condition units etc all operate
with a low power factor when running with a low load, by using an automatic
power factor correction system, you improve the power factor and thus reduce
the amps drawn from the supply.
A great idea.
BillB
krw
says...
Who cares? Most motors run close to rated load (where PF is close to
unity). ...not that it matters because PF simply isn't an issue for
the homeowner.
> A great idea.
I suppose someone has to think SCAMS are great ideas. They wouldn't
exist otherwise.
--
Keith
John Gilmer
>
> I suppose someone has to think SCAMS are great ideas. They wouldn't
> exist otherwise.
>
From a "scam" view, this gadget (and its relatives) have taken in a lot of
folks.
Over 30 years ago, Exxon (the big US oil company) started to buy a small
company that had "invented" such an energy saver. It was the same basic
idea: reduce the voltage to reduce the "reactive" current. A "chip"
monitored things so that the voltage would continually seek the optimum
point of minimum current. The hype was the same: it would make a giant
difference in energy consumption. The reality to most EEs that if it
worked it might save "a little."
Anyway, Exxon was willing to buy the company. The critics of Exxon claimed
that Exxon wasn't making an investment but was trying to keep energy saving
stuff off the market (like the 100 mpg carburetor!). Obviously, the BIG
OIL critics got just as carried away as the managers at Exxon.
I think I have seen it on display at some hardware stores once or twice in
the years between then and now.
The "scam" part is the excessive claims. The basic idea works but only
saves some I^2*R loses in slightly loaded induction motors.
bud--
> On 7/7/07 4:55 PM, in article
> MPG.20f9f1515...@news.individual.net, "krw" <k...@att.bizzzz>
> wrote:
>
>> Residential customers are *not* charged for PF, at least in the US.
>> The only claim they could weasel around is the heating of your
>> internal home wiring due to reactive current.
>
> I tried mining Their faq to find out how the device works. I could not.
>
> It is true, we get charged for actual energy consumed on our side of the
> meter. That includes extra heating of the conductors outside the appliance.
> It is not clear to me how this device knows how much correction is required
> for the various devices under various loads. I also agree, that if there is
> extra current flow in the appliance, it is difficult to understand how that
> waste energy can be reduced by this device.
>
Correcting power factor on industrial is a good idea, as BillB alludes
to, because industrial users pay a big penalty for reactive power. I
agree with Bill above - US residential users do not - no advantage.
Low power factor increases the current which increases the I2R losses in
wires. The only wires corrected are from the meter to the correction
point - the panel (and the service neutral?). Negligible distance,
negligible saving.
It would be rather hard to improve the power factor of water heaters,
heaters, coffee makers, toasters.
In the patent application, the power factor correction is set with
switches (fixed). The reactive load cycles, so some of the time there is
over correction increasing the I2R losses.
Do they claim the metered power will go down when the current goes down
(confusing power and VA)? I don't remember but I wouldn't be surprised.
> I also have to include that this is a scam.
I agree.
--
bud--
krw
says...
>
>
> >
> > I suppose someone has to think SCAMS are great ideas. They wouldn't
> > exist otherwise.
> >
>
> From a "scam" view, this gadget (and its relatives) have taken in a lot of
> folks.
Yep, my brother was one. He invested his life savings in a company
selling these things. He should have known better. He was a an EE
and power company exec. No one in the family listened to me, a lowly
EE student at the time.
> Over 30 years ago, Exxon (the big US oil company) started to buy a small
> company that had "invented" such an energy saver. It was the same basic
> idea: reduce the voltage to reduce the "reactive" current. A "chip"
> monitored things so that the voltage would continually seek the optimum
> point of minimum current. The hype was the same: it would make a giant
> difference in energy consumption. The reality to most EEs that if it
> worked it might save "a little."
Yep, again. The above happened in the early '70s.
> Anyway, Exxon was willing to buy the company. The critics of Exxon claimed
> that Exxon wasn't making an investment but was trying to keep energy saving
> stuff off the market (like the 100 mpg carburetor!). Obviously, the BIG
> OIL critics got just as carried away as the managers at Exxon.
;-)
> I think I have seen it on display at some hardware stores once or twice in
> the years between then and now.
Yes, and I've seen some rigged demos when they show up too.
> The "scam" part is the excessive claims. The basic idea works but only
> saves some I^2*R loses in slightly loaded induction motors.
How many lightly loaded induction motors are there out there and how
much energy are they using? Remember, they're lightly loaded. ;-)
--
Keith
AL BENSER
These black boxes contain capacitors to improve the power factors.
But the one who benefit from it is ONLY the power co. that supply
the electric power. The total electric power consumed in a home is
made of two components; the real power and the reactive power.
In the USA the consumers pay ONLY for the real power portion.
Now, for industrial/commercial users, it is different. To the electric
Co. that generate the electric power, the reactive power cost less
then 5% of the real power . . . . .
20-30 years ago, when these scams started, I was interviewed on
TV on the subject and, as a result, one of those company had to
close down and filed for bankruptcy . . . .
The power factor is less then perfect (or one), only on loads that
have a motor, like a washing machine, etc . . . and the overall
load on a residential house is not bad to begin with . . . . but
still the electric co. are greedy and happy to see the public fooled!!
"CS" <idon...@fcc.gov> wrote in message
news:139084n...@corp.supernews.com...
Politically Incorrect
sells such a product. Was searching this newsgroup when I ran across this
thread.
First of all, I understand the skepticism. There is far too much nonsense
out there.But I am surprised at the outright dismissals made without more
thorough investigation.
Let me provide a few places people can go to do further research:
instructional videos
http://www.electricpowersave.com/KVAR_Videos.html
manufacturer's website, which includes a number of testimonials, a bio of
the inventor, some educational material on electricity and how these devices
work, and so on
http://www.kvarnrg.com/homepage.html
http://kvarenergysavings.com/testimonals.htm
http://kvarenergysavings.com/understanding_power.htm
http://kvarenergysavings.com/certifications.htm
Electric bills from users of the Power-Save 1200 or similar model device:
http://www.powersavemi.com/kleebauer_page.html
Although the documents are not in public areas of any of the links I have
given, I AM in possession of studies from the US Department of Energy,
University of Santa Clara, NASA, and Honeywell.. Contact me via the contact
form at
http://www.electricpowersave.com/Contact.html
and I will arrange to e-mail copies to you.
Are there scams out there? Absolutely
Is this worth further research, if it really can promise electric bill
reductions of 10-20% That's for you to decide
Is this for everyone? No.... it only makes economic sense if your bill is
over $150 per month, maybe more.
"CS" <idon...@fcc.gov> wrote in message
news:139084n...@corp.supernews.com...
Charles Perry
"Politically Incorrect" <bill...@tastelessjokes.org> wrote in message
news:t5OdnaEbQeOMaXfb...@comcast.com...
So you sell a capacitor for power factor correction on residential services.
If you weren't a scam, you would simply state that rather than talk about
the mysterious heat that is damaging appliances, lol.
As more and more devices become electronic in a home, the displacement power
factor, all your capacitor can correct, will move closer to unity. At some
point, a capacitor at the service entrance will actually cause increased
energy as the displacement power factor moves leading. Just wait until all
of the motors in your home are power by adjustable speed drives. Unity
power factor (displacement).
It will be nice to see the resonance issues crop up that industrial
customers have been fighting for decades.
Charles Perry P.E.
CS
news:t5OdnaEbQeOMaXfb...@comcast.com...
> sells such a product. Was searching this newsgroup when I ran across this
> thread.
>
> First of all, I understand the skepticism. There is far too much nonsense
> out there.But I am surprised at the outright dismissals made without more
> thorough investigation.
So this device will make my coffee taste better? Make a TV run cooler?
Allow me to eliminate cooling fans on my computers?
You, sir, are a SCAMMER!
Intel would just love to quit worrying about heat holding back the speed of
their CPU's. Since this device, according to you, would allow them to do
this without spending hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D, why don't you
throw your pitch at them?
Because you are full of shit!
You are also quite stupid, posting your nonsense to a newsgroup for
electrical engineers. I'm not even close to being an actual 'engineer', and
even I know what a load of crap you are.
Please die.
CS
Salmon Egg
"Politically Incorrect" <bill...@tastelessjokes.org> wrote:
> I was going to post something similar regarding a different company which
> sells such a product. Was searching this newsgroup when I ran across this
> thread.
>
> First of all, I understand the skepticism. There is far too much nonsense
> out there.But I am surprised at the outright dismissals made without more
> thorough investigation.
>
> Let me provide a few places people can go to do further research:
>
> instructional videos
> http://www.electricpowersave.com/KVAR_Videos.html
I gave up watching and reading at this point. I did watch the videos at this
site, and I do believe they are probably accurate and not intended to
deceive. Unfortunately, a patent was issued. There is nothing new about the
technology being explained.
First, I noticed that the motor had no mechanical load. Thus, the only power
getting fed into the motor was that required to make up the mechanical and
electrical losses consumed by a motor when it is running at full speed bun
not doing anything. Energy saved for such a motor by turning the motor off.
An automobile engine idling does no useful work, but you do not ordinarily
let it idle between trips.
The technology displayed is over a hundred years old. It is power factor
correction obtained by using capacitors. Induction motors, the most widely
used type for ac will have a poor (low) power factor when run unloaded. It
is this lagging current that is being corrected by adding a capacitor. The
loss goes to heating up the conductors. According to the measurement, the
device lowered the consumed energy by 3 parts out of 150 (Count the
seconds.) If the motor ran at full load, the current measured in the
conductors would be, as a guess, about 10A. That would cause several (maybe
ten) times as much power to go into heating the copper (You do use copper,
don't you?) conductors than the uncorrected unloaded motor.
Bill
--
The PC conservative does not believe in evolution but likes to see natural
selection proceed. The PC liberal believes in evolution but will do almost
anything to prevent natural selection from working.
Politically Incorrect
>"Charles Perry" <pipesan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:5l0bc6F...@mid.individual.net...
heat DOES damage motor, and electronic circuit boards, etc. duh! why do you
think there are fans in computer power supplies? why do you think mainframes
were kept in environmentally controlled rooms? duh! why does your car have a
radiator? duh!
>As more and more devices become electronic in a home, the displacement
>power
>factor, all your capacitor can correct, will move closer to unity. At some
>point, a capacitor at the service entrance will actually cause increased
>energy as the displacement power factor moves leading. Just wait until all
>of the motors in your home are power by adjustable speed drives. Unity
>power factor (displacement).
the point about electronic circuit boards is well taken. and an interesting
one.
consider, though, the legacy. all thoise HVAC units, all those washers and
dryers and refridgeration and freezer units and compressors out there that
are several years old, running just fine, and will not be replaced any time
soon? Are they 100 % energy efficient?
>It will be nice to see the resonance issues crop up that industrial
>customers have been fighting for decades.
>Charles Perry P.E.
there is a simple answer to your skepticism. It is called science. It is
called empiricism. It is called experimentation.
How about I place one of these units in your home, 90 day, free? how about I
pay for the installation? how about after ninety days we review your
electric bills and see what if any savings you experience?
Wait a minute... I can think of a couple of ways in which you could assure
that this experiment would fail. Then you could come back to everyone and
say "see - I told you it was a scam" - that after having moved over to a
friend's place and running all your lights and all your HVAC and all your
appliances 24/7 to dramatically increase your usage?
You see - trust works two ways. You are a skeptic. Fine. I might be willing
to use you as a test case. Skeptics are the best for that. But I would have
no reason to trust that you would give an honest effort nor an honest
report, given your vested interest in maintaining your position as a know it
all..
It occurs to me that there is something else you could do. Design an
experiment that would demonstrate to your satisfaction that the test and the
results are honest, and then approach Power-Save or KVAR yourself and run
the experiment in conditions you yourself have dictated. with witnesses. so
no one side could make claims that were not documented.
Of course, why would anyone believe what your experiments showed, given that
you have stated you wonder at what's going on in the demos you have seen.
Offer on the table. Any takers?
Politically Incorrect
"Politically Incorrect" <bill...@tastelessjokes.org> wrote in message
news:t5OdnaEbQeOMaXfb...@comcast.com...
>I was going to post something similar regarding a different company which
> sells such a product. Was searching this newsgroup when I ran across this
> thread.
>
> First of all, I understand the skepticism. There is far too much nonsense
> out there.But I am surprised at the outright dismissals made without more
> thorough investigation.
>>So this device will make my coffee taste better? Make a TV run cooler?
>>Allow me to eliminate cooling fans on my computers?
I'm sorry, but I dont recall making any such claims
>>You, sir, are a SCAMMER!
I'll make you the same offer I made the other guy.
How about I place one of these units in your home, 90 day, free? how about I
pay for the installation? how about after ninety days we review your
electric bills and see what if any savings you experience?
Wait a minute... I can think of a couple of ways in which you could assure
that this experiment would fail. Then you could come back to everyone and
say "see - I told you it was a scam" - that after having moved over to a
friend's place and running all your lights and all your HVAC and all your
appliances 24/7 to dramatically increase your usage?
You see - trust works two ways. You are a skeptic. Fine. I might be willing
to use you as a test case. Skeptics are the best for that. But I would have
no reason to trust that you would give an honest effort nor an honest
report, given your vested interest in maintaining your position as a know it
all..
It occurs to me that there is something else you could do. Design an
experiment that would demonstrate to your satisfaction that the test and the
results are honest, and then approach Power-Save or KVAR yourself and run
the experiment in conditions you yourself have dictated. with witnesses. so
no one side could make claims that were not documented.
Of course, why would anyone believe what your experiments showed, given that
you have stated you wonder at what's going on in the demos you have seen.
Offer on the table. Any takers?
>>Intel would just love to quit worrying about heat holding back the speed
>>of
>>their CPU's. Since this device, according to you, would allow them to do
>>this without spending hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D, why don't
>>you
>>throw your pitch at them?
>>Because you are full of shit!
As stated above, I am not making that claim. Nor have I seen such claims
elsewhere. I HAVE read the University of Santa Clara report. Want a copy to
read for yourself?
>>You are also quite stupid, posting your nonsense to a newsgroup for
>>electrical engineers. I'm not even close to being an actual 'engineer',
>>and
>>even I know what a load of crap you are.
See the offer above.
>>Please die.
I will, eventually. so will you.
>>CS
how appropriate, your initials.
Politically Incorrect
"Salmon Egg" <salm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:C310A679.9C677%salm...@sbcglobal.net...
Given what little I know about electricy and electrical mechanical motors, I
can't say.
Got a question for you, though. Let us assume that the testimonials are
true, that the published electric bills are true and not fabricated. If the
only change was the addition of the power reducer units, what would a
reasonable conclusion be?
Salmon Egg
5LmdnWrrPN3_q3Db...@comcast.com, "Politically Incorrect"
<bill...@tastelessjokes.org> wrote:
> heat DOES damage motor, and electronic circuit boards, etc. duh! why do you
> think there are fans in computer power supplies? why do you think mainframes
> were kept in environmentally controlled rooms? duh! why does your car have a
> radiator? duh!
Unloaded motors do not heat up much.
DUH DUH
--
Fermez le Bush--less than 18 months to go.
Politically Incorrect
1On 9/16/07 6:58 AM, in article
5LmdnWrrPN3_q3Db...@comcast.com, "Politically Incorrect"
<bill...@tastelessjokes.org> wrote:
> heat DOES damage motor, and electronic circuit boards, etc. duh! why do
> you
> think there are fans in computer power supplies? why do you think
> mainframes
> were kept in environmentally controlled rooms? duh! why does your car have
> a
> radiator? duh!
>>Unloaded motors do not heat up much.
>>DUH DUH
Offer's on the table - you know where to contact me to negotiate the
specific terms. Take a chance ;)
krw
bill...@tastelessjokes.org says...
Why do business with a scammer? *ANY* business.
--
Keith
krw
bill...@tastelessjokes.org says...
Yout you insist on selling crap to the unsuspecting? You are a
criminal!
> Got a question for you, though. Let us assume that the testimonials are
> true, that the published electric bills are true and not fabricated. If the
> only change was the addition of the power reducer units, what would a
> reasonable conclusion be?
The assumption is false, therefor the conclusion is meaningless. The
only meaningful conclusion is that you're a crook.
--
Keith
Charles Perry
Heat beyond its design capability damages a motor. Think about that a bit.
Electronic circuit boards? Hahaha. Most DC power supplies are power factor
corrected now. Adding your capacitors to the input will NOT reduce the
heating. It will move the displacement power factor off of unity,
increasing the losses in the power system supplying the equipment.
As for designing tests, I have facilities that can do a much better job
testing your device than installing it on someones house and asking them to
use less electricity to prove your device works. I can simulate all of the
loads for a residential customer in a thermal chamber located inside of
another thermal chamber. In this way I don't have to worry about changes in
climate from month to month, I control the climate in the outside chamber
and then a typical residential hvac system located in this space will run to
keep the inside space at a constant temp.
I don't work for free however.
Charles Perry P.E.
krw
pipesan...@hotmail.com says...
The ones that aren't PF corrected won't be helped by capacitors.
Displacement current is hardly the issue with such supplies, or in
fact anything in the home.
Will a dumb capacitor help as much as potentially hurt? Leading
current is just as bad as lagging. ...not that either matter to the
home owner.
> As for designing tests, I have facilities that can do a much better job
> testing your device than installing it on someones house and asking them to
> use less electricity to prove your device works. I can simulate all of the
> loads for a residential customer in a thermal chamber located inside of
> another thermal chamber. In this way I don't have to worry about changes in
> climate from month to month, I control the climate in the outside chamber
> and then a typical residential hvac system located in this space will run to
> keep the inside space at a constant temp.
Why would a scammer want what you have to offer?
> I don't work for free however.
Nor for thieves, I bet.
--
Keith
Charles Perry
"krw" <k...@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:MPG.21573c1ae...@news.individual.net...
> In article <5l56f3F...@mid.individual.net>,
<snip>
>
> Why would a scammer want what you have to offer?
>
The "testing" they present on the website is quite humurous. Basically they
compare a month's energy usage with the device to the same month the year
prior. The problem is that they make no correction for HDD or CDD (heating
degree days and cooling degree days). These two numbers can vary widely
from year to year for a given month.
Here are example HDD and CDD numbers for Santa Barbara, CA for a 4 year
period:
All readings from July
year, hdd, cdd
2004, 41, 25
2005, 43, 39
2006, 6, 125
2007, 11, 46
As is obvious from this data, you cannot simply compare energy usage from
July in one year with the usage in July of another year. This is why
controlled, laboratory experiments are required for these types of devices.
Charles Perry P.E.
Don Kelly
>
Actually this device appears to be nothing more than a capacitor in a box.
It will reduce VAR's drawn from the supply by a motor. It will not reduce
the vars drawn by the motor itself and will not reduce heating in the motor.
It will, however, reduce line losses incurred on the source side of the
device but not "downstream" of it (and the cost of these losses is a small
part of the total cost of energy unless one has a very inadequate supply)
and tend to hold load voltages a bit higher which helps (again with
inadequate supply).
By the way such capacitive compensation has been in use for approximately
100 years.
Whether it is economic or not depends on a number of factors-including
billing that includes a KVAR charge which is not generally used for
residential customers. Also such compensation does nothing for lighting and
resistive heating loads.
It is being marketed on the basis of customer ignorance (the "theory"
given is dumbed down and the claim that it sends the unused "power" back to
the utility is extremely misleading -to put it politely). Mind you,
testimonials are always much more glowing than actual lab tests.
--
Don Kelly dh...@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
Charles Perry
"Don Kelly" <dh...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:sKgHi.184040$fJ5.42655@pd7urf1no...
The funny thing is if you look at power factor correction on their website,
there is one webpage that does a decent job of explaining it and its
benefits. It talks about the savings from not carrying the reactive current
on the facility wiring and talks of putting the cap as near the load as
possible for this reason. Then you look at the residential pages and they
install the dang think a foot from the revenue meter! It saves you some
losses in a foot of wire! lol.
Charles Perry P.E.
krw
bill...@tastelessjokes.org says...
> "CS" <idon...@fcc.gov> wrote in message
> news:13em2lv...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Politically Incorrect" <bill...@tastelessjokes.org> wrote in message
> news:t5OdnaEbQeOMaXfb...@comcast.com...
> >I was going to post something similar regarding a different company which
> > sells such a product. Was searching this newsgroup when I ran across this
> > thread.
> >
> > First of all, I understand the skepticism. There is far too much nonsense
> > out there.But I am surprised at the outright dismissals made without more
> > thorough investigation.
>
> >>So this device will make my coffee taste better? Make a TV run cooler?
> >>Allow me to eliminate cooling fans on my computers?
>
> I'm sorry, but I dont recall making any such claims
The claims you do make are just as silly.
> >>You, sir, are a SCAMMER!
>
> I'll make you the same offer I made the other guy.
Don't bother. Doing business with a scammer would only encourage
you.
> How about I place one of these units in your home, 90 day, free? how about I
> pay for the installation? how about after ninety days we review your
> electric bills and see what if any savings you experience?
How about you show where an energy savings large enough to show up on
a utility bill would come from? We talk science here, not scam.
> Wait a minute... I can think of a couple of ways in which you could assure
> that this experiment would fail. Then you could come back to everyone and
> say "see - I told you it was a scam" - that after having moved over to a
> friend's place and running all your lights and all your HVAC and all your
> appliances 24/7 to dramatically increase your usage?
Yep, start moving the goal posts. Why not move them all the way to a
group that doesn't know any better?
> You see - trust works two ways. You are a skeptic. Fine. I might be willing
> to use you as a test case. Skeptics are the best for that. But I would have
> no reason to trust that you would give an honest effort nor an honest
> report, given your vested interest in maintaining your position as a know it
> all..
Hey, it's Sunday. The goal posts are needed where they are!
> It occurs to me that there is something else you could do. Design an
> experiment that would demonstrate to your satisfaction that the test and the
> results are honest, and then approach Power-Save or KVAR yourself and run
> the experiment in conditions you yourself have dictated. with witnesses. so
> no one side could make claims that were not documented.
It occurs to me that you could show, scientifically where your
"savings" is coming from. You can't because they don't exist.
> Of course, why would anyone believe what your experiments showed, given that
> you have stated you wonder at what's going on in the demos you have seen.
Why would anyone believe a scam artist?
> Offer on the table. Any takers?
No. I didn't take the offer when my brother, and EE, gave me the
same offer thirty years ago. It was a scam then and physics, nor
apparently scammers, haven't changed one bit since.
>
> >>Intel would just love to quit worrying about heat holding back the speed
> >>of
> >>their CPU's. Since this device, according to you, would allow them to do
> >>this without spending hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D, why don't
> >>you
> >>throw your pitch at them?
>
> >>Because you are full of shit!
>
> As stated above, I am not making that claim. Nor have I seen such claims
> elsewhere. I HAVE read the University of Santa Clara report. Want a copy to
> read for yourself?
I've read it. Appeals to (very little) authority don't trump
physics.
> >>You are also quite stupid, posting your nonsense to a newsgroup for
> >>electrical engineers. I'm not even close to being an actual 'engineer',
> >>and
> >>even I know what a load of crap you are.
>
> See the offer above.
>
> >>Please die.
Indeed the fate wished on all scammers.
> I will, eventually. so will you.
Not soon enough.
> >>CS
>
> how appropriate, your initials.
How appropriate of a scam artist. Your From: is quite appropriate,
as well.
--
Keith
CS
>
> "CS" <idon...@fcc.gov> wrote in message
> news:13em2lv...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Politically Incorrect" <bill...@tastelessjokes.org> wrote in message
> news:t5OdnaEbQeOMaXfb...@comcast.com...
>>I was going to post something similar regarding a different company which
>> sells such a product. Was searching this newsgroup when I ran across this
>> thread.
>>
>> First of all, I understand the skepticism. There is far too much nonsense
>> out there.But I am surprised at the outright dismissals made without more
>> thorough investigation.
>
>>>So this device will make my coffee taste better? Make a TV run cooler?
>>>Allow me to eliminate cooling fans on my computers?
>
> I'm sorry, but I dont recall making any such claims
You claim to be "surprised at the outright dismissals made without more
thorough investigation", as you can see above in your last post. The video
clearly explains that it somehow only supplies the power the devices in the
home need, and that it's all the 'extra' power they don't need which causes
heat. This is the same video and company I dismissed, and as you recall,
you were "surprised" I dismissed it outright.
In fact, I did do a bit of research, as indicated in my first post. I was
unimpressed by the results.
>>>You, sir, are a SCAMMER!
>
> I'll make you the same offer I made the other guy.
>
> How about I place one of these units in your home, 90 day, free? how about
> I
> pay for the installation? how about after ninety days we review your
> electric bills and see what if any savings you experience?
>
> Wait a minute... I can think of a couple of ways in which you could assure
> that this experiment would fail. Then you could come back to everyone and
> say "see - I told you it was a scam" - that after having moved over to a
> friend's place and running all your lights and all your HVAC and all your
> appliances 24/7 to dramatically increase your usage?
That is a perfectly logical scenario, one that is impossible to argue
against.
Oh wait, turns out you didn't offer to pay my electric bill. So for me to
'prove' your device doesn't work, I would have to make higher payments on my
power bill for three months. However, I have no financial stake in either
your sucess or failure, while you do. Turns out that whole paragraph is
fluff and BS, which are scammers' favorate tools of the trade.
> You see - trust works two ways. You are a skeptic. Fine. I might be
> willing
> to use you as a test case. Skeptics are the best for that. But I would
> have
> no reason to trust that you would give an honest effort nor an honest
> report, given your vested interest in maintaining your position as a know
> it
> all..
Don't claim to know "it all", but I do know bullshit when I smell it, and I
know enough about this subject to tell when the bullshit is flowing heavily.
Again, I have no financial interest. I do have an interest in not seeing
good folks get taken by scammers. It's called morality.
Also, in this case, trust does NOT work both ways. You are trying to get me
to trust you. I, on the other hand, have no interest in getting you to
trust me. If you like, call me a liar. It might make you feel better. I
have nothing to gain either way.
I expect nobody to take my word as gospel. Folks here are smart enough to
decide for themselves what's fact and fiction.
Anybody else can take a gander at the claims of this miracle box saving you
money by lowering the power factor. They can also do 10 seconds of research
and find that electric companies in the US do NOT charge residential
customers extra for power factors. Once they catch you in one lie, they can
easily and rightfully assume you are lying about everything else.
> It occurs to me that there is something else you could do. Design an
> experiment that would demonstrate to your satisfaction that the test and
> the
> results are honest, and then approach Power-Save or KVAR yourself and run
> the experiment in conditions you yourself have dictated. with witnesses.
> so
> no one side could make claims that were not documented.
>
> Of course, why would anyone believe what your experiments showed, given
> that
> you have stated you wonder at what's going on in the demos you have seen.
I have seen no "demos". That video was a marketing tool, not a scientific
study, which is of course the whole point, because a scientific study would
show exactly what was in this $300 metal miracle box, which is what, $30
worth of parts?
But hey, I try to be fair, and I'll be fair to you. You were kind enough to
post some links, so I'll take a look and we'll see. I'll skip the video
link for now.
First link:
http://www.kvarnrg.com/homepage.html
Basically the home page, though it had one bit that approached the mere
concept of honesty.
"Savings on energy will vary by location, amount of inductive equipment,
line losses, and how your electric company bills you. Talk to a
representative or yourauthorized distritutors for more information."
Basically it's a disclaimer and a link to people who can lie or tell the
truth to you, but proves nothing either way.
Second link:
http://kvarenergysavings.com/testimonals.htm
Testimonials. Again, proves nothing either way. Scammers use these to help
convince marks, but legit businesses sometimes post them too.
Third link:
http://kvarenergysavings.com/understanding_power.htm
Several links to pages that supposedly explain how electricity works. First
page is a highly technical mess that is certain to confuse those potential
customers this product is aimed at. The skeptic in my believes this is the
goal, while the soft, fuzzy side of me thinks, well, the same thing. Next
page is more mellow, explaining how electricity is generated and used,
including a bit of history. Next page is a few pictures showing power
lines.
The page after that is a tad more interesting, making the claim:
"Here is how we at KVAR save money and energy with the KVAR Energy
Controller (KEC)."
"It is installed anywhere power is consumed and the KEC unit sends the extra
UNUSED power back to the power company."
Unused power? After all that technical jargon on the first page? Ok, maybe
not a lie, but kind of strange.
Last page has to do with system losses, but doesn't explain much beyond
vague, mean-nothing numbers attributed to various vaguely described devices.
Fourth link:
http://kvarenergysavings.com/certifications.htm
So-called certifications from various parties.
Cleaner and Greener Certified, with a logo that shows a little plug on a
green background. Somewhere on the logo appears to be writing, but it is
unreadable, as the letters are dark green with a light green background, and
quite small. A quick Google search came up with
http://www.cleanerandgreener.org/, which does indeed certify companies who
participate in their program. I did NOT see the same logo on their site,
and while they list the companies that are certified, KVAR was NOT on the
list. The search function did not work on this site.
NASA tested, with a little NASA logo. While this is on the "certifications"
page, to my knowledge NASA does not certify anything. If fairness, it says
NASA tested. Ok. So? No doubt they've tested a wide assortment of things,
from floor wax to deoderant. What was the result of their "test"? Who
cares what they test? They've allowed two space shuttles to explode through
their own worthlessness. Hardly the trustworthy organization we knew in the
70's.
Underwriters Laboratory tested, with a UL logo. Again, what were the
results of the test? They've tested many things, some of which undoubtedly
caught on fire, blew up, or otherwise failed their tests in entertaining
ways. Well, to my surprise, some of their products are in fact listed on
UL's database. The product, of course, is a Power Factor Correction
Capacitor, which is exactly what I described in my first post. Also, on the
same page the company is listed on is this disclaimer:
"The appearance of a company's name or product in this database does not in
itself assure that products so identified have been manufactured under UL's
Follow-Up Service. Only those products bearing the UL Mark should be
considered to be Listed and covered under UL's Follow-Up Service. Always
look for the Mark on the product."
None of the pictures on KVAR's web site clearly showed a UL Mark, but again
I'll be fair, more than fair, and give you the benefit of the doubt. For
purposes of this thread, I'll agree that these products are UL listed. So?
It probably won't kill you, which is pretty much ALL being UL listed means.
The Directive on the Restriction of the Use of Certain Hazardous Substances
in Electrical and Electronic Equipment, RoHS for short, with their logo and,
real surprise here, an actual link to a PDF document. The surprise I felt
was short lived, however, when I clicked on that link and a new page opened
up saying "The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its
name changed, or is temporarily unavailable." Sure it is. Every other page
works just dandy on the site, but this one somehow doesn't. Ok, again with
the fairness, somehow one page of this site got messed up, and it's really
RoHS compliant. And? All this means is the goo inside the capacitor won't
eat your hand off.
CSA, just the logo which, according to Wikipedia, is often forged. Their
web site http://www.csa.ca/ is a pure pain in the ass, and I was unable to
check whether or not KVAR was legit or not. Seems this organization is more
interested in getting visitors to fill out forms and pay money for seminars
than actually doing their job. This, of course, is CSA's failing, so KVAR
cannot be blamed, so again, to be fair, we'll just say that, for this
thread, KVAR is CSA certified. I can almost make out a CSA logo on the
sticker.
> Offer on the table. Any takers?
I'll take you up on one offer, the one you made regarding the so-called
studies you mentioned on your origional post. I'll make it easy on you, I
already have them!
Had you read my first post completely, you would have known this.
The so-called Department of Energy report is actually something called the
Motor Challenge Information Clearinghouse, a program of the DOE, which since
my first post, STILL has a web site that doesn't work, although www.doe.gov
is moving along quite well. Well, just for kicks I went surfing their site,
and did indeed find this publication. Still, it doesn't come anywhere close
to verifying the wild claims made by you or your partner Powersave, and it
is definately NOT an endorsement by the DOE. In fact, before I got to the
document, there were numerous disclaimers stating the DOE was NOT
responsible for any of the documents found on it's web site. Again, all
this document says is that a capacitor is a good idea sometimes.
Hmmm..where have I seen that before?
So much for the DOE study.
The Santa Clara University study? Again, it looks like it was slapped
together. Two PHD's wrote a document that says, well, a capacitor is a good
idea sometimes. Nothing about better tasting coffee, which is a shame
really. So, where's the biblio, notes, references, or anything that shows
they actually did research into anything? Oh, and what is their connection
to Powersave, KVAR, or whomever is making money on these things?
Studies from NASA and Honeywell? Again, having NASA as a reference is
probably won't go down in history as Marketing's Greatest Idea. Honeywell?
I'm not thrilled by what they did to King-Bendix, but I can't say anything
against them. It would be interesting to read their report, as long as it
doesn't say, well, you know, Capacitors Are A Good Idea Sometimes.
Now, if these studies are so all-fired important, so much so that they are
likely to change my mind completely and make me come crawling to you begging
for forgiveness, they why AREN'T they on your site? Slap those suckers on
your site, let folks here know you did so, and I'll stop whatever I'm doing
(unless it's having sex), fire up a smoke, and read them start to finish.
Something tells me this isn't going to happen. If these studies were that
profound, they would be on your site already. Folks generally like to put
their best foot forward before asking for hundreds of dollars of someone
else's money, and anything that offers even the slightest evidence your
product works would be slathered all over the site.
So, what does all this mean? It means nothing you say can, so far, be
proven. Unless there's some serious gold in the NASA or Honeywell studies,
there's nothing to indicate folks would be saving any money at any time.
This of course doesn't mean a residential consumer's electrical bill can't
go down some if, say, they run large fans, pool pumps, A/C, or air
compressors all day and night. I doubt it would come down to a point where
this thing pays for itself in any reasonable time, unless, well, you know,
you acknowledged it was just a capacitor, and charged a fair market value
for it, the metal box, and a little wire.
I did notice there's nothing on the Company page. It's "Coming this week".
Well, that gives you time to make something up. Really, most folks can
summarize their company, employer, or themselves in just a few minutes.
Media Gallery? Coming soon. Sure it is. With an installation video and
instructions.
You know, I was going to give you one compliment. You were to be praised
for not expecting laymen consumers to crack open their breaker box and
fiddle around with things they don't understand, but can easily KILL THEM.
Oh well, with a capacitor that can, according to your warranty, last five
years (probably much longer), who cares about repeat business?
This means you are also a Fuck Bag.
Don't bother trying to say this is for electricians. I think your stupid,
not a completely brain dead moron. Any halfway non-worthless electrician
knows what this is, what it does, how to install it, and how foolish the
customer is for buying it.
I almost thought you weren't a lowlife. That's really the highest
compliment I can pay you.
>>>Intel would just love to quit worrying about heat holding back the speed
>>>of
>>>their CPU's. Since this device, according to you, would allow them to do
>>>this without spending hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D, why don't
>>>you
>>>throw your pitch at them?
>
>>>Because you are full of shit!
>
> As stated above, I am not making that claim. Nor have I seen such claims
> elsewhere.
You haven't? Check out the 'demo' at
http://www.power-save.com/product.html, which I linked to in my first post
that you supposedly read. It's all right there, cooler running TV's, better
tasting coffee, the works!
> I HAVE read the University of Santa Clara report. Want a copy to
> read for yourself?
Please refer to my first post.
Actually, try the following link for a real device for power factor
correction.
No, I don't expect you to pay my electric bill, show a real demonstration,
or otherwise make a legit attempt to prove anything. I fully expect you to
throw out some half-hearted replies, call me a "dickhead", then crawl back
into your hole until some sucker comes along.
>>>You are also quite stupid, posting your nonsense to a newsgroup for
>>>electrical engineers. I'm not even close to being an actual 'engineer',
>>>and
>>>even I know what a load of crap you are.
>
> See the offer above.
>
>>>Please die.
>
> I will, eventually. so will you.
So will some folks foolish enough to think your not a lowlife.
I should have said Please die, Now.
>>>CS
>
> how appropriate, your initials.
Good taste in initials at least. So to speak.
CS
Politically Incorrect
"krw" <k...@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
---> http://renaissance-pacific.net/KVAR_OMC_Information.pdf
I refer you to page 10 - the NASA testing. You, of course, will immediately
dismiss this as a fake. You would not think to research the name of the
individual who signed the document, discover he still works for NASA, call
him (as I did) and discuss the finding. You, after all, know everything
there is and therefore could not be convinced by "science"
> Wait a minute... I can think of a couple of ways in which you could assure
> that this experiment would fail. Then you could come back to everyone and
> say "see - I told you it was a scam" - that after having moved over to a
> friend's place and running all your lights and all your HVAC and all your
> appliances 24/7 to dramatically increase your usage?
Yep, start moving the goal posts. Why not move them all the way to a
group that doesn't know any better?
---> moving golaposts? if you were as smart as you think you are, you would
have noted that a far more effective way to sabatage any such test would be
to disconnect the device the next day. sorry, my closed minded friend, but
you are blinded by your own prejudice. I refer you to a DOE document
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/mc60405.pdf
--> and also
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/power_factor.pdf -
note the placement of capacitors to optimize energy usage and draws.
--> us all again just how much science you are using. I never realized that
name calling was science.
--> I hear that bread mold might be medicine. souds like a scam to me.
Not soon enough.
---> unlike you hate filled people, I do not wish the worse for anyone, even
people like you.
Politically Incorrect
"krw" <k...@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
--> not that the manufactuer has klew about marketing, proper documentation
of references, etc. but on the other hand, you apparently are ot familiar
with any of the research done by DOE and others regarding power factors,
inductive loads, etc. sorry, but I have been busy reading, checking out
references and detemining that this tehnology REALLY DOES work.
--> have there been scams in the past? absolutely. are there scams now? sure
seems like those asian devices I see on youtube are scams. but I am also
seeing far too many real people and operations saving money.
--> you can continue to rant and claim the folks a NASA are liars, and the
folks at Honeywell are liars, and those whose electric bills are displayed
at various sources are liars, or that all the evidence is made up. OR you
could do a little work, and maybe learn something. not that I think you
will, because, after all, you know everything already.
--
Keith
Charles Perry
>
<snipo>
> --> and also
>
> ttp://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/power_factor.pdf -
> note the placement of capacitors to optimize energy usage and draws.
Did you even read that document? It is for an industrial customer who is
billed for poor power factor. Also, the caps are placed at the motor
control centers, pretty darn close to the motors. Your device is to be
placed near the meterbase for a residential customer. That would provide
almost NO energy savings. The energy savings from a capacitor (assuming a
load with poor displacement power factor) occurs by reducing the current in
the wire from the location of the capacitor back to the metering point.
There are no savings in the wire from the capacitor to the motor since the
current level does not change (other than a very slight change possible due
to increased local voltage in some cases).
Why have you not responded to any of my posts regarding real testing?
Charles Perry P.E.
krw
bill...@tastelessjokes.org says...
<trim your posts!>
> > I'll make you the same offer I made the other guy.
>
> Don't bother. Doing business with a scammer would only encourage
> you.
>
> > How about I place one of these units in your home, 90 day, free? how about
> > I
> > pay for the installation? how about after ninety days we review your
> > electric bills and see what if any savings you experience?
>
> How about you show where an energy savings large enough to show up on
> a utility bill would come from? We talk science here, not scam.
>
> ---> http://renaissance-pacific.net/KVAR_OMC_Information.pdf
> I refer you to page 10 - the NASA testing. You, of course, will immediately
> dismiss this as a fake. You would not think to research the name of the
> individual who signed the document, discover he still works for NASA, call
> him (as I did) and discuss the finding. You, after all, know everything
> there is and therefore could not be convinced by "science"
You can't even read your own scam. Hell, you can't even get a news
client set up properly (even Outhouse Excess takes work to screw up
that badly). Or perhaps being the scammer you are, you're
intentionally trying to obfuscate. Nah, a *crook* wouldn't do that,
would he?
> > Wait a minute... I can think of a couple of ways in which you could assure
> > that this experiment would fail. Then you could come back to everyone and
> > say "see - I told you it was a scam" - that after having moved over to a
> > friend's place and running all your lights and all your HVAC and all your
> > appliances 24/7 to dramatically increase your usage?
>
> Yep, start moving the goal posts. Why not move them all the way to a
> group that doesn't know any better?
>
> ---> moving golaposts? if you were as smart as you think you are, you would
> have noted that a far more effective way to sabatage any such test would be
> to disconnect the device the next day. sorry, my closed minded friend, but
> you are blinded by your own prejudice. I refer you to a DOE document
> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/mc60405.pdf
You're not even a half-smart scammer. All I'd have to do to defraud
you would be to leave my oven on for the month. I don't need to
result to fraud to make you look bad. Science does that rather
nicely for me. (BTW, I note that you can't even use a speel cheker).
Yes, I am rather closed minded about fraud. I've never met one I
liked. You are no different.
> --> and also
> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/power_factor.pdf -
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> note the placement of capacitors to optimize energy usage and draws.
You stupid fraud, residential customers aren't charged for
displacement current, even if your scam did something, which it
doesn't.
> --> us all again just how much science you are using. I never realized that
> name calling was science.
Fraud isn't either. You are a fraud and should be hung by your toes
in the public square.
> --> I hear that bread mold might be medicine. souds like a scam to me.
There is some pretty sound science behind "bread mold". The science
behind electricity is pretty well known. The science behind your
capacitors has also been pretty well known for quite some time.
Amazingly, this scam has been around at least thirty years. I
suppose there is a new generation of stupid people. Even the
Nigerian scam lives, so you may have a shot at the big time in a
group that doesn't know any better.
<learn to snip, while you're learning about the Usenet thing>
> > >>Please die.
>
> Indeed the fate wished on all scammers.
>
> > I will, eventually. so will you.
>
> Not soon enough.
>
> ---> unlike you hate filled people, I do not wish the worse for anyone, even
> people like you.
Hate Frauds? No, not really, I just want you to die an excruciating
death. ...as soon as possible. It's the just reward for scammers
and spammers, in general.
<do learn to snip, while you learn to set up your newsreader, while
you learn some morals. Some engineering knowledge might help too.>
--
Keith
krw
bill...@tastelessjokes.org says...
>
> "krw" <k...@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
> news:MPG.21572a6ba...@news.individual.net...
<Idiot scammer, learn to use the tools!>
> > Got a question for you, though. Let us assume that the testimonials are
> > true, that the published electric bills are true and not fabricated. If
> > the
> > only change was the addition of the power reducer units, what would a
> > reasonable conclusion be?
>
> The assumption is false, therefor the conclusion is meaningless. The
> only meaningful conclusion is that you're a crook.
>
> --> not that the manufactuer has klew about marketing, proper documentation
> of references, etc. but on the other hand, you apparently are ot familiar
> with any of the research done by DOE and others regarding power factors,
> inductive loads, etc. sorry, but I have been busy reading, checking out
> references and detemining that this tehnology REALLY DOES work.
I am quite familiar with PF. ...enough to know this fraud from a
million miles away. You've been told *many* times why it
doesn't/can't work, yet you insist on continuing your fraud.
> --> have there been scams in the past? absolutely. are there scams now? sure
> seems like those asian devices I see on youtube are scams. but I am also
> seeing far too many real people and operations saving money.
*THIS* exact scam, in fact. You certainly are bold in your fraud.
> --> you can continue to rant and claim the folks a NASA are liars, and the
> folks at Honeywell are liars, and those whose electric bills are displayed
> at various sources are liars, or that all the evidence is made up. OR you
> could do a little work, and maybe learn something. not that I think you
> will, because, after all, you know everything already.
No rant. I'm simply calling you what you are; a FRAUD. I'm not the
one who has to do work. I know how PF works. I also know that
residential customers aren't charged for displacement current.
--
Keith
sl-...@cox.net
usefulness to the average consumer (I'm quite sure that they don't),
and instead point out the lack of professionalism of the average
"Professional Electrical Contractor" as evidenced in:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?p=8867
Since the above posts show clearly that the average electrician will
install such devices, probably without clearly informing their
customer of their uselessness, it is no wonder that such scams
continue to be perpetrated upon the public.
It seems, from my point of view, that the "professionals" a consumer
would employ to install such a device (not the engineers to who I am
speaking here) are scamming the public just as the sellers are.
So perhaps the real engineers here should be warning those who travel
this way in search of more information, that both the sellers and the
contractors will be very happy to take your money. Professionals?
Phooey!!!
Politically Incorrect
<sl-...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1190496750.7...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?p=8867
----------------------------------
I've been on the internet since before Al Gore invented it. In that time I
have run into people who know what they are talking about, people who think
they know what they are talking about, and people who know something about
something and therefore think that they know everything about everything.
The fact is, that there has been research in inductive motors and reactive
power going back 25 years at least. A simple Google search using the terms
"reactive power" will turn up plenty of information explaining the concept,
how it works, and how power is optimized by the placement of capacitors in
electrical systems where there is inductive load. (a few links at end of
post)
Now, folks like you, who think you know everything about something,
apparently have done no research at all, and yet here you are, loudly
proclaiming this a scam, despite the research by NASA, the Department of
Energy, the University of Illinois, and many others.
First off, do some research. Start reading and educate yourselves as to the
research and what is being claimed and how these devices work. Learn what
the claims are, and learn what is not claimed. These devices work with
inductive motors. They do no work with television sets, electric stoves and
ovens, incandescent lights (and have little if any effect with fluorescent
lighting ), toasters, etc. The DO work with electric motors. And THAT is
where the power reduction and savings come from. Reading the research will
tell you that.
You COULD read up on reactive power. OR you can continue to be jackasses,
braying and hee hawing and kicking up at something that "seems" to you to be
a fraud even though you have done no research in the matter. I suggest it is
YOU who are the fraud.
Educational links:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/mc60405.pdf
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/power_factor.pdf
http://www.pserc.wisc.edu/Sauer_Reactive%20Power_Sep%202003.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_power#Real.2C_reactive.2C_and_apparent_power
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/AC/AC_11.html
http://www.energyvortex.com/energydictionary/reactive_power.html
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/drupal/files/2006/ML55_Reactive%20power_v4.ppt?download#14
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/2.html
http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h1011v3/css/h1011v3_69.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0930671.html
http://www.control.com/thread/1026238188
http://www.the-power-factor-site.com/
Politically Incorrect
Charles Perry P.E.
---------------------------
Politically Incorrect
"krw" <k...@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
<trim your posts!>
> --> and also
>
--
Keith
Politically Incorrect
"krw" <k...@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
--
Keith
Politically Incorrect
First link:
http://www.kvarnrg.com/homepage.html
Second link:
http://kvarenergysavings.com/testimonals.htm
Third link:
http://kvarenergysavings.com/understanding_power.htm
Fourth link:
http://kvarenergysavings.com/certifications.htm
CS
--------
Stuart
Politically Incorrect <bill...@tastelessjokes.org> wrote:
> The fact is, that there has been research in inductive motors and
> reactive power going back 25 years at least. A simple Google search
> using the terms "reactive power" will turn up plenty of information
> explaining the concept, how it works, and how power is optimized by the
> placement of capacitors in electrical systems where there is inductive
> load. (a few links at end of post)
When I first joined the BBC back in 1970, there were some old Marconi
SWB18, 100kW shortwave transmitters at Daventry, which had been installed
pre-war.
When they were installed, if you wanted DC, apart from the six phase,
steel tank Mercury arc rectifiers (11kV and 12A DC to the push-pull, class
C, final RF valves) you used motor-generator sets.
The ones for the valve filaments could produce 20V (pure Tungsten
filaments) at up to 2000A. [1] The two levels of grid bias were produced
with a smaller set which had one AC motor and a dynamo at each end.
When you turned on the MG sets you also operated an OCB (manually) which
connected the PFC capacitor. This capacitor was about 4 feet x 2 feet and
7 feet high.
Power factor correction of inductive loads using capacitors was well known
back in the late 30s
Stuart
[1] By the time I arrived the pure Tungsten filament valves had been
replaced with valves having Thioriated Tungsten filaments requiring less
volts and current
--
Stuart Winsor
From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
Charles Perry
> the
> research and what is being claimed and how these devices work. Learn what
> the claims are, and learn what is not claimed. These devices work with
> inductive motors. They do no work with television sets, electric stoves
> and
> ovens, incandescent lights (and have little if any effect with fluorescent
> lighting ), toasters, etc. The DO work with electric motors. And THAT is
> where the power reduction and savings come from. Reading the research will
> tell you that.
>
>
Again you miss the whole point. Caps supply the reactive power to motors so
the power system does not. However, to get savings on your bill, the cap
has to be as close to the motor as possible. You only get savings in the
wire to the cap. downstream of the cap you do not get savings. Very
simple. I suggest you get a text book on power systems analysis. You might
learn something. You keep avoiding the real questions and throwing smoke
screens, like a true charlaton.
Judging from your posts, my dog knows more about power factor correction
than you do. I know I do having spent the last 20 years doing research and
consulting in power systems analysis.
Charles Perry P.E.
krw
bill...@tastelessjokes.org says...
<everything snipped because I have little time for obfuscating
frauds>
> I've been on the internet since before Al Gore invented it. In that time I
> have run into people who know what they are talking about, people who think
> they know what they are talking about, and people who know something about
> something and therefore think that they know everything about everything.
You're a damned liar, on top of being a fraud. If you'd "been on the
Internet since before Al Gore invented it" you would know how to set
up a newsreader and know something about Usnet etiquette. You're not
only a fraud but a liar, as well.
>
> The fact is, that there has been research in inductive motors and reactive
> power going back 25 years at least. A simple Google search using the terms
> "reactive power" will turn up plenty of information explaining the concept,
> how it works, and how power is optimized by the placement of capacitors in
> electrical systems where there is inductive load. (a few links at end of
> post)
The fact is that you are a fraud and should be strung up in public,
perhaps stoned.
> Now, folks like you, who think you know everything about something,
> apparently have done no research at all, and yet here you are, loudly
> proclaiming this a scam, despite the research by NASA, the Department of
> Energy, the University of Illinois, and many others.
Folks like me *know* you're a scum-sucking fraud, worse than magic
elixir peddlers.
> First off, do some research. Start reading and educate yourselves as to the
> research and what is being claimed and how these devices work. Learn what
> the claims are, and learn what is not claimed. These devices work with
> inductive motors. They do no work with television sets, electric stoves and
> ovens, incandescent lights (and have little if any effect with fluorescent
> lighting ), toasters, etc. The DO work with electric motors. And THAT is
> where the power reduction and savings come from. Reading the research will
> tell you that.
First off, read a little about engineering. What you are selling
*CANNOT* save significant money. It cannot do *ANYTHING* the way
it's intended to be installed. It is a total *FRAUD*.
>
>
> You COULD read up on reactive power. OR you can continue to be jackasses,
> braying and hee hawing and kicking up at something that "seems" to you to be
> a fraud even though you have done no research in the matter. I suggest it is
> YOU who are the fraud.
I know what reactive power is. I don't need to "read up" on it. As
you have been told many times (though refuse to listen) residences do
not pay for reactive power, only the real. Any *minute* savings
would be from heating of wires in the home. Since your *fraudulent*
product attaches to the entrance, it'll only save on (reactive I)*R
loss of the foot or so of cable from the entrance panel to the meter;
hardly worth the price of your fraud.
>
Fraudulent use of
> Educational links:
snipped.
Now please crawl in your corner and die.
--
Keith
krw
bill...@tastelessjokes.org says...
<everything snipped>
> have run into people who know what they are talking about, people who think
<here too>
I see you know how to send canned responses, fraud.
Perhaps everyone reading this fraud should start reporting him to his
ISP as a fraud and Internet abuser. It won't stop him from scamming
little old ladies but perhaps it'll get him TOSsed.
--
Keith