GET SERIOUS WITH HYDROGEN
Raleigh Myers
From: "Raleigh Myers" <ram...@igc.apc.org>
This is an answer to a series of posts on the Hydrogen list.
GETTING SERIOUS WITH HYDROGEN
We often hear the term elusive or utopian Hydrogen Economy. The
patter usually includes a few half truths about metal brittleness
and the danger of Hydrogen along with some garbage about ICE engine
conversions backfiring etc. When we hear of growing sugar cane or
corn for fuel we know we are dealing with deception. The cost of
production far exceeds the energy value and how do we explain that
to a world where a third of the population is facing starvation due
to cultural genocide by land swindles, climate change, and land
destruction by chemical agriculture and cattle.
What you don't hear in the deceptive posts and ploys is that the
Hydrogen technology went to the moon and back while you prayed,
cheered and watched on television. The Hydrogen technology that was
proven there was ready to be used in the sixties and was hidden and
manipulated into intellectual property after it was researched with
our tax dollars. As the demand side we should demand it.
The basic Hydrogen storage in the moon lander and control module
as well as the shuttle today is helically wound titanium ambient
temperature pressure tanks and fuel cells are used for electric
generation. Hydrogen fuel cells have come a long way since then and
they are still being hidden by energy-industrial fascists funding
world debt entrapment with the windfall profits from their cartel
control of fossil fuel.
When we get our priorities straight we can put fuel cells in a
vehicle with electric motors in the wheels and Hydrogen powered
transportation is a reality. Billings and Ballard have fuel cell
powered prototypes and are stymied by the usual Tucker type of end
runs and hail Mary plays by industry fascism. This is discussed in
our web site. THE ULTIMATE VEHICLE
Again when we see this clearly we can produce the Hydrogen by the
electrolysis of polluted water using concentrator collectors with an
energy cascade ie. waste heat to clean up the water and perform
other functions as a benefit to the producer. Wind, hydro, tidal,
geo thermal. etc. are close seconds but because of the energy
cascade potential of concentrators the land use advantage as well as
other factors makes it first choice by huge margin. This is
discussed in our web site. OFF AXIS PARABOLA
The `Hydrogen Economy' per say enters the picture on the end use
side. The Hydrogen delivered to the site by pipe or helically wound
titanium tank becomes the water supply. With some rededicated
technology you vaporize the sewerage, garbage and trash in the
Hydrogen heater cooler electric generating water recovery unit and
the water demand goes way down because it is possible to recycle
the water from most other uses when the sewerage is not a factor
ie. showers, laundry, manufacturing process water etc. When
electricity is generated during heating and cooling(refrigeration)
cycles the fuel costs concealed in the price of the electricity and
wasted by central power plants along with transmission losses now
benefits the end user. This amount to two thirds of the fuel used
for electric production which can be discounted from the already
exaggerated fuel need and cost estimates(planned scarcity). Which
brings into focus the bias from organized usury and the venom
expended attempting to thwart any thing that might upset their
little rip-off..
The Hydrogen Economy, when viewed holistically, creates a
savings(treadmill TIME) beyond what any other scenario could
possibly accomplish. By eliminating the profit-tax for surrogate
sewerage disposal, supplying fresh water, collecting trash and
garbage, the maintenance, rebuild and installation of these
infrastructures, along with land fills, sky fills, and purification
works for both water and sewerage add the home electricity
generation and fueling of transpiration to say nothing of the
pollution reduction there is reason to study this strategy further.
One of the largest uses of chlorine is also eliminated ie. purifying
water and sewerage. So now we have to deal with the bovine
scatology from the ICE makers, chlorine interests and fossil fuel
frankencorp. This is discussed in our web site. THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY
STUPID
So as we have learnt in the direct democracy lists, rather than
get locked into divisive questionnaires and discussions with so
called scientists and engineers whose obvious livelihood and loyalty
is tied to the status quo, lets pursue these hydrogen storage and
fuel cell electric technologies that were demonstrated on the moon
and the space shuttle while every body was watching and still are.
What is needed is Mike Mulligans Space Shuttle in the basement. The
feeling in the space program was just shut up and make it work. We
could use a bit of that advice here. When we see a post obviously
designed to thwart our progress or waste time with some kind of
reactionary flame war(pun intended) just skip over it with a
possible mental Mediterranean gesture and get on with the business
of kick starting a dead planet :).
As artists, in the early seventies, we saw the Hydrogen Economy as
a small part of a greater puzzle and as scientists we corroborated
our worst fears and our wildest dreams. As a group of artists and
scientists we got down to the task of getting the components for
change on line in our own unique way. Now we need critical mass. As
Einstein pointed out we can't overcome the mistakes of the past with
the same tools used to make them ie. advise taken seriously. Our
radical (getting to the roots of things) presentation is available
at our web site URL http://www.igc.apc.org/raenergy/raenergy.html
In Solidarity
Raleigh
RALEIGH MYERS GEER........................
ram...@igc.apc.org
RA ENERGY FDN.............
http://www.igc.apc.org/raenergy/raenergy.html
..........................FOLKSAY(people say)
.............THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND, THIS LAND IS MY LAND
...................THIS LAND IS MADE FOR YOU AND ME
.....................The Global Village anthem
.......sung by those who already voted for citizen empowerment
.. now let's get it officially on record with electronic direct democracy
THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF AQUARIUS ..is the reality at hand!
The children of the universe, the right to be here generation ie. the meek
taking their prophetic inheritance out of probate is not a conspiracy.
Phillip Zadarnowski
Raleigh Myers <ram...@igc.apc.org> wrote:
>From: "Raleigh Myers" <ram...@igc.apc.org>
>This is an answer to a series of posts on the Hydrogen list.
>GETTING SERIOUS WITH HYDROGEN
[...]
>This amount to two thirds of the fuel used
>for electric production which can be discounted from the already
>exaggerated fuel need and cost estimates(planned scarcity). Which
>brings into focus the bias from organized usury and the venom
>expended attempting to thwart any thing that might upset their
>little rip-off..
If I pay $1.00 a litre for either hydrogen or petrol, what's the
difference?
S
Jan Sjöholm
In article <98bcbd18&1996070721...@igc3.igc.apc.org>,
ram...@igc.apc.org says...
>
>From: "Raleigh Myers" <ram...@igc.apc.org>
>
>This is an answer to a series of posts on the Hydrogen list.
>
>GETTING SERIOUS WITH HYDROGEN
>
> ..............
> ..............
>RALEIGH MYERS GEER........................
>.......
You are fighting against politics and short term economy..
As soon as a couple of car manufaturers decide to provide
cars with standardised hydrogen fuel system AND get a distribution
system rigged up in a larger area (It must contain a couple of
million people) there could be a market for hydrogen.
Of course there is also the posibility for lawyers to make money
as there always are some sort of hazard with new tecnology.
Jan Sjöholm
p.s. Personaly I would go hydrogen - if possible.
(: english is not my language, but I do my very best :)
Laurent Boucher
I would like to learn more about hydrogen engines
Does anybody here knows links where I can improve
my knowledge ?
Thanks
--
Laurent Boucher : http://www.worldnet.fr/~lboucher (French)
Edwin Sayre
The problem with hydrogen is that the only possible clean way of making
it is with nuclear power and the public fobia about nuclear will not let
it proceed at this time.
Roger W. Faulkner
I think not. There are many "remote" energy sources, including
hydroelectric and solar, that are not close enough to electricity
markets so as to allow transport to market as electricity. This is a
niche for H2, as is the excess energy produced by windfarms during
unusually high wind conditions. H2 should be seen as a helpful
technology for energy storage & transport rather than as a source.
to...@hal-pc.org
FDC...@prodigy.com (Edwin Sayre) wrote:
>The problem with hydrogen is that the only possible clean way of making
>it is with nuclear power and the public fobia about nuclear will not let
>it proceed at this time.
You are kidding right? What about the methanol reformers being worked
on by Damler-Benz and Argonne National Labs?
==============================================================
Tom Simpson
to...@hal-pc.org
Free and open civilization requires that each individual's
responsibility match their authority.
When authority exceeds responsibility we have despotism.
When responsibility exceeds authority we have slavery.
author jcha...@tnrltd.com
Harry H Conover
to...@hal-pc.org wrote:
: FDC...@prodigy.com (Edwin Sayre) wrote:
:
: >The problem with hydrogen is that the only possible clean way of making
: >it is with nuclear power and the public fobia about nuclear will not let
: >it proceed at this time.
:
: You are kidding right? What about the methanol reformers being worked
: on by Damler-Benz and Argonne National Labs?
Is it perhaps that those energy numbers don't add up large enough?
Just a thought.
Harry C.
Edwin Sayre
You kno, of course, that when you make hydrogen from fossile sources, you
also make carbon dioxide, which goes into the atmosphere. The only way
to make clean hydrogen is to make it from water. The only source of
enough energy to make enough hydrogen is nuclear.
William R Stewart
Why do you ignore wind and solar? Please provide support for your thesis.
Cheers,
--
Will Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
"The truth will set you free." - J.C.
Piers Watts-Jones
FDC...@prodigy.com (Edwin Sayre) wrote:
>You kno, of course, that when you make hydrogen from fossile sources, you
>also make carbon dioxide, which goes into the atmosphere. The only way
>to make clean hydrogen is to make it from water. The only source of
>enough energy to make enough hydrogen is nuclear.
>
DaveHatunen
In article <4tlo96$s...@hasle.sn.no>,
Andreas Haffner <ahaf...@aft.sn.no> wrote:
[...]
>It need not be true that making H2 from fossils produces CO2. As far as I know
>there exist an industrial process making H2 and Carbon Black from natural gas.
>Not a renewable thing but at least CO2-free as long as you do not burn the C.
>Somebody knows more?
Were such a process to be used for a significant number of vehicles, we
are going to have an awful lot of carbon black on our hands. What do
you suggest be done with it if not oxidized?
BTW, there ar lots of ways to make hydrogen without CO2: any power
process not involving the combustion of carbon or its compounds will
do. Nuclear, hydro, solar, etc, can all be used to electrolyze water.
Since one purpose of EVs or hydrogen vehicles is putatively to relieve
the exhaustion of our natural resources, I'm not clear on why natural
gas is a desirable way to create hydrogen. As someone else has ppointed
out, oil and natural gas have valuable non-fuel uses.
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@netcom.com) **********
* Daly City California *
* Between San Francisco and South San Francisco *
*******************************************************
Paul Troop
In article <31FEC9...@patriot.net>, wste...@patriot.net says...
>
>Edwin Sayre wrote:
>>
>> You kno, of course, that when you make hydrogen from fossile
sources, you
>> also make carbon dioxide, which goes into the atmosphere. The only
way
>> to make clean hydrogen is to make it from water. The only source of
>> enough energy to make enough hydrogen is nuclear.
>
thesis.
>
>Cheers,
>--
>Will Stewart
>http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
>"The truth will set you free." - J.C.
I had a conversation with one of the directors of a company in Canada
that is developing hydrogen fuel cells for cars, and he said that they
had nothing until there was a viable source of energy such as cold
fusion. I agree with W. Stewart that the concept of wind and sun is
good, however it seems that there is a need to do it on a larger scale
than that.
Edwin Sayre
The energy density of solar power is too low to produce enough hydrogen.
Ed Sayre